Empyrean wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

I think if charmed you'll attack a random hostile of the charmer. I doubt you'd be able to freely choose which of your allies you hit.

Could be the tank, that blaster you don't like, or the healer trying to un-mez you.

Edit: It being random would be pretty great. Go to use your huge attack, spin around and crack the healer one, KOing them.

People will hate enemies that can charm, but that just means they'll be primary targets.

I never said or thought that you could choose, I said "notice they can attack". The problem is when it happens to be that blaster you don't like. Or if you're just a griefer. Or a kid who doesn't get it.

You wouldn't be able to focus on that player however. You just wouldn't really feel bad for hitting them.

Like, I think it'd be random every time.

Activate power > hit blaster
Activate power > hit tank

And you wouldn't necessarily know when you -aren't- still charmed. The only way to find out is to keep attacking. Or stop attacking all together/wait to be healed from the mez.

Sure some people won't care that they're hitting allies, but they have no indication that they're charmed/still charmed. So there's not really a way you can be an obvious griefer like that. If your party decides that a player should just not attack after being hit by X attack and someone continually does, they'll be removed from the team pretty quick. Like 2-3 combats tops.

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

The only time it'd facilite someone being removed from the team would be if the team agreed that if you get hit by X attack then you don't attack till you're cured. But even then there's margin for error. Didn't see the attack, thought you got healed, etc.

I don't think there's any way for people to really be able to police it, sure some people will get irrationality angry about it but some people do that anyway.

I just don't think it'll be anywhere near as big of a deal as you're thinking it will be. Griefing will happen, as it always does, this doesn't give people really any more of a tool than anything else. Likely with the random nature of it it'll be difficult to actively grief people with this mechanic. Especially when there are other more readily available tools to do so like pulling more mobs.

About the only way I could see someone using this to grief would be after they -know- they got hit with a charm effect to just try to use their biggest attacks as much as possible. Which has a pretty equal chance to help as well as hurt. Weren't fully charmed? Cool you just took out a bunch of enemies. We're fully charmed, but that attack wasn't affected and while using it others finished off the charmer.

And given the possibility of the danger with charms likely any enemy who charms will be a primary target, so they'll probably not live very long.

Lothic wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

I'm having a tough time imagining how Charm-based powers could be used [i]consistently[/i] to grief people. I suppose there might be some kind of scenario where that comes up in CoT but I would think it would be a very rare thing regardless.

I don't recall cases of "charm griefing" in CoH - in fact I remember [b]actively[/b] using it with other players in order to earn certain MOB defeat badges that would have been effectively impossible to earn otherwise (i.e. bluesiders earning the Longbow defeat badge). *shrugs*

Ok, so forget intentional griefing altogether. I still think Charm could (not unavoidably will, but could) magnify the irritation with accidentally bad gameplay, again, much the way knockback did. But in this case whether you pick a particular power set or not.

I had a tough time imagining how knockback could engender such rancor in others even while I was playing as a lead tank on a kb heavy team. But it did.

Anyway, at this point I feel I'm over-arguing the dangers of what is a very fixable problem, should it even arise :).

Empyrean wrote:

Lothic wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

I'm having a tough time imagining how Charm-based powers could be used [i]consistently[/i] to grief people. I suppose there might be some kind of scenario where that comes up in CoT but I would think it would be a very rare thing regardless.

I don't recall cases of "charm griefing" in CoH - in fact I remember [b]actively[/b] using it with other players in order to earn certain MOB defeat badges that would have been effectively impossible to earn otherwise (i.e. bluesiders earning the Longbow defeat badge). *shrugs*

Ok, so forget intentional griefing altogether. I still think Charm could (not unavoidably will, but could) magnify the irritation with accidentally bad gameplay, again, much the way knockback did. But in this case whether you pick a particular power set or not.

I had a tough time imagining how knockback could engender such rancor in others even while I was playing as a lead tank on a kb heavy team. But it did.

Anyway, at this point I feel I'm over-arguing the dangers of what is a very fixable problem, should it even arise :).

Like everything else it'll be worth checking out during beta testing.

Hopefully passive powers or permanent power or whatever we call them will be harder to suppress than toggles.

Usually always on powers tend to be weaker than activated ones, so them being harder to suppress makes sense.

eislor wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

. . . snip . . .

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.

I'm thinking that a lot of defensive powers, especially any "oh sh*t" power you have would have this modifier.
If the defensive power is a primary would that modifier be greater than it would if the defensive power was a secondary or tertiary?

In think the beauty of this system is that every power could potentially get unique "willpower modifiers" to better adjust exactly how vulnerable to control effects the Devs want things to be. In this case I would think that powers in a primary poweset would be more resistant to control effects than others.

PhiloticKnight wrote:

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

There's quite a few people on here. Some just show up for the updates, others post more regularly.

Either way I'm always glad to have more voices in the discourse.

Lothic wrote:

In think the beauty of this system is that every power could potentially get unique "willpower modifiers" to better adjust exactly how vulnerable to control effects the Devs want things to be. In this case I would think that powers in a primary poweset would be more resistant to control effects than others.

PhiloticKnight wrote:

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

The amount of forethought that is going into this game continues to impress. There is so much ability to adjust and develop as needed being built in that watching the game grow after launch is going to be exciting as hell.

My wife and I both have new laptops. My son is on deck for his. Let's get this show on the road :D!!!

Tannim222 wrote:

Also, with regards to “mushy” controls:
For pve we designed pawns by rank so that unimproved controls require: 1 Control to fully effect a mook, 1-2 stacking controls (depending on the hit roll) to fully effect an agent, and 2 stacking controls to fully effect a Boss. A critical Control takes 1 hit on all of them.

Yeah I figured the effort to "fully lock down" most things would not be that extraordinary unless the you're facing a top NPC boss or a PC in PvP.

I’m convinced any potential problems can be addressed by the many tuning parameters the devs have. The concept as a whole is superb.

Here’s another question—what about second order controls? Let’s say I successfully charm a lieutenant mob. It then uses its charm power on its own mook. Does that mean the mook is my ally? For how long?

Or, let’s say my friend the tank gets charmed and accidentally taunts me. I then accidentally use my charm power on her. What happens?

I’m sure there’s a lot more variations of this theme. It sounds like crazy fun, but will it break the game mechanics?

1. Just as here was no way to tell when you were about to fully control a target in any other game; the same applies here, when the target is fully controlled it will play the control animation. Remember there is a lot of customization that can be applied here, for those that remember our dance control video for an idea.

A single indicator is does a poor job of indicating what is primarily effecting the target. Using the “tipping point “ control will do little to say “fully controlled” because it could be edge cases of 4 or more control effects occurring.

2. You don’t “have to react” it is meant to more or less mean you have to change what you planned to do or use because of being controlled .

Players can’t really assist Ken another as I have. It designed very many “cleanse” powers most are ones that provide initial defense to protections

There are a few protection powers that provide a way to break controls that you could wait to use reactively but they may have more mileage use proactivly depending on the build.

The other way is to use a Reserve. For the majority of controls you will see on your power bar that powrs are affected.

3. All power attributes will be made available in the power window.

Great update. Lots of hard work and thought seems to have been placed on this topic. CoT's modular approach will likely make balancing much easier, I'm guessing.
Will there be skills, enhancements/refinements or boosts that affect the willpower stat or willpower requirements for a skill (s)?
Will the CoT equivalent of breakfrees affect a specific control stat (eg separate boosts for volition, calm etc. or simply boost all relevant control stats? and will that include def, res for knock back ?

Again congrats on the fine update.

Will we be able to see Willpower modifiers, even if not during combat, so we can at least plan a character accordingly while planning a build?

Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.

Huckleberry wrote:

Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.

Resistance resists everything of that type.

If you have Physical Resistance it will reduce any physical effect that hits.

The powers that provide Defense vs Cotnrol effects are typically in the tier 3 slot a few sets have them found in the tier 4 slot. Tiers which are found when npcs start showing up with control effects but not yet common among them. These powers also have modifiers to their Will Power rating so they don’t get suppressed until the very last with your basic powers.

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.
I was there right alongside all of you. This is something that WAS in the old game: succubi etc.
1: Open world dueling: Doesn't happen in garden areas, if you leave the duel the effects vanish.
2: Yes, perhaps there was a reason you never saw succubi in low level zones.
3: Zoning makes the effects vanish. Sure, you can abuse that but it's a lesser risk.
(there are things like zoning that are not zoning, still counts a bit.)
We are talking about things we _can_ do. Not always things that are all over the place.
Don't worry. I used to run with the Circle of Jerks, I know how they rolled, I know griefing.

PVP/PVE universal rules introduce a double edged sword concept. One tweak to make the PVE aspect more fun/enjoyable causes an unfair PVP advantage, tweaking the PVP so that its not so overwhelming removes the enjoyment from PVE. This balancing act places the game in a terrible position of having to choose between two completely different environments. If you segregate PVP from PVE power effects at the beginning, you no longer have to punish one environment in favor of another. PVP should be fun, and control effects should exist but in a much more diminished capacity, allowing for minor distractions rather than overwhelming control. While in PVE control effects can mitigate the impact adds have on an encounter allowing NPCs to be 'overwhelmed' or boss level NPCs to be inconvenienced. PVP and PVE are so different you do not want to try to balance them together as both will never measure up to what they could be.

valhalid wrote:

PVP/PVE universal rules introduce a double edged sword concept. One tweak to make the PVE aspect more fun/enjoyable causes an unfair PVP advantage, tweaking the PVP so that its not so overwhelming removes the enjoyment from PVE. This balancing act places the game in a terrible position of having to choose between two completely different environments. If you segregate PVP from PVE power effects at the beginning, you no longer have to punish one environment in favor of another. PVP should be fun, and control effects should exist but in a much more diminished capacity, allowing for minor distractions rather than overwhelming control. While in PVE control effects can mitigate the impact adds have on an encounter allowing NPCs to be 'overwhelmed' or boss level NPCs to be inconvenienced. PVP and PVE are so different you do not want to try to balance them together as both will never measure up to what they could be.

I understand your concerns but I actually think what MWM is proposing here for their control mechanics actually goes pretty far towards [b]unifying[/b] a workable "PvE control scheme" and "PvP control scheme" under one continuous system as Tannim just implied.

Instead of having to make a bunch of unique kludges in order to make controls work under both environments this system should be able to handle both just by applying various streamlined modifiers and by staying true to the "non-binary" nature of the control effects which will mitigate the traditional problem of perma-holds in PvP.

Obviously this system will need to be playtested and PvP in CoT is likely a long way off regardless. Still this system shows real promise at being able to adequately work under both PvE and PvP [b]by design[/b] without having to be highly re-engineered to make it work in one or the other.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.

I remember it. I remember it being because of RV's entrance in AP. I remember it being because of certain status effects not getting dropped due to zoning. I remember it being used by a bunch of ***** on our server.

I'm not saying we've thought of everything. I'm saying we were right there with you and we _remember_ all the dirty little tricks people used, and we're doing our best to make sure they don't show up again.

Teleport Other off the world ceiling was a thing.

SWTOR you could stealth in a must-flag pvp area, and get hit by stray AOEs on purpose, causing the player to flag, then you could kill him without being flagged yourself.

Sadly I don't have time to read all the replies and commentary in this thread, just the announcement.

So far, I like what I'm seeing.

The notion of having the higher tier Powers being the first to "succumb" to control effects is certainly a very interesting way to leverage the tier system for Powers. And although it isn't mentioned in the announcement directly, I for one would very much like to see the way that Willpower (essentially, protection from Controls) gets calculated as being something where actually having Control Powers yourself will boost your own Willpower stats versus those Control types relative to someone who doesn't have any Control powers at all. It was always extremely ridiculous to me that Mind Controllers (and indeed, any Controllers, really) were utterly defenseless against being Controlled in City of Heroes.

Depending how stuff is set up behind the scenes, you could even rig it as Powers that have Control effects get a boost to the Willpower of that specific power to protect against that type of Control. So, for example, a Hold Power would get +1 Willpower versus Holds applied to that specific Power. That way, you wouldn't necessarily have a regularized "predictable" stairstep of Willpower thresholds that never varies among Operator PCs (or even NPCs!). Instead, depending on your build, there could be some rather significant variation in Willpower thresholds for specific powers, [i]based on your build choices[/i], at variance from the default baseline.

The other thing that suggests itself is that there ought to be a boost to Willpower essentially "across the board" based on what your Primary/Secondary powerset is. Something like a (for illustration purposes only) +2 to all Willpower if your Primary is either Protection or Manipulation ... and a +1 to all Willpower if your Secondary is either Protection or Manipulation. I'm just tossing numbers to illustrate the concept, not as inviolate markers or anything. The same sort of principle could apply to things like Leadership Pool toggles (Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics) that we remember, offering broad based Willpower boosting to all Powers your character has, regardless of Archetype.

In other words, there's lots of useful customization available with even the quick glimpse of the system we've been offered so as to make HOW a specific PC responds to Control effects be something unique and personal to THAT PC, rather than being something which is a foregone conclusion set in stone before character creation even began.

Might there be Defense v. Controls buffs available to Support characters?

If you double up on protection sets (if that's a viable option, getting a protection tertiary when you already have one as a primary/secondary) would you net double the protections to controls (minus diminishing returns of course)?

hrmmm...I like what I see but I have a few questions:
I am assuming there are a couple things that happen in order to determin control: first, hit the target then it's effectively Willpower of the control vs the target's Willpower on their various abilities? defensive powers set to resist control effectively go against the "to hit" modifier...I assume this given the Willpower itself cannot be augmented/modified by the players.

Assuming the control hits, does it calculate against all powers at the same time to determine which powers are "controlled" or does it roll through the list one at a time getting weaker the further it goes? I am assuming the former vs the later...

how does an operator improve his controls? I would assume he can modify the "to hit" chance and the duration...but NOT the actual willpower itself of the control ability given the target cannot modify the Willpower on the defensive side of the house?

not sure how clear that came out, it's late and I should be asleep...heh
eitherway, seems interesting and looking forward to seeing how it plays out in a live game play setting. :)

warcabbit wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.

I remember it. I remember it being because of RV's entrance in AP. I remember it being because of certain status effects not getting dropped due to zoning. I remember it being used by a bunch of ***** on our server.

I'm not saying we've thought of everything. I'm saying we were right there with you and we _remember_ all the dirty little tricks people used, and we're doing our best to make sure they don't show up again.

Well, I think you, collectively as a company, have done an impressive job hammering out many of the devilish details. And that's not to say that you'll catch everything, as you stated, but at least I'm under the impression that many things were taken under consideration.

There is always the argument that bad control is bad. What I mean is, If you CAN lock someone down, you want to, so you play that class or those powers. If you throw such powers at the opponent and it DOESN'T do that, then what does it do? And how is that better or even as good as doing damage?

I'm not arguing all powers should be equal, or all classes, just that if you're trying to balance what controller types do in PvE and PvP you want them to at least be similar in both and to be viable in both. That's not easy, given that what you want to do in PvE is completely shut the NPCs out, whereas doing that to another player is a way different can of worms in the metagame.

Radiac wrote:

There is always the argument that bad control is bad. What I mean is, If you CAN lock someone down, you want to, so you play that class or those powers. If you throw such powers at the opponent and it DOESN'T do that, then what does it do? And how is that better or even as good as doing damage?

I'm not arguing all powers should be equal, or all classes, just that if you're trying to balance what controller types do in PvE and PvP you want them to at least be similar in both and to be viable in both. That's not easy, given that what you want to do in PvE is completely shut the NPCs out, whereas doing that to another player is a way different can of worms in the metagame.

Why would I be arguing that this system of controls would NOT be viable in PvP? If as a controller you can't accept a system that [b]won't[/b] let you as easily perma-lock a PC in PvP as it would let you perma-lock a bunch of NPCs that's your problem, not the game's.

I'd have no problem with a game that let me lock NPCs with one application of a power whereas it might take 2 or 3 castings to lock a PC down. No problem with that at all. The reason for that is obvious - PCs are typically FAR MORE POWERFUL than your average NPC. Why shouldn't it be harder to control them?

I plan on having a psychic controller. I’m okay if it’s hard to fully lock down a player as long as my powers do [i]something[/i] meaningful. Slow them down, raise cooldowns, block a couple powers, etc.

TriNitroToluene wrote:

This looks very interesting.

I look forward to being utterly confused by the game mechanics when this launches. There is no teacher like failure and pain.

My first CoH toon was a blaster and I took taunt and all of the powers in the fitness pool early. Let me tell you, I learned something from that experience......OOOF

heh heh heh I bet you did! lol

My first character was a controller IIRC and I don't think I ever got that one over level 14. Just didn't like the mechanics or feel of the role. Took a long time for me to really appreciate the controller role. I think the mechanics they are developing for COT operators are a bit more sophisticated and dynamic compared to COH controllers. Thanks to this update they are sounding much better to me than they did in COH.

This is what I dig about updates like this one. They make me revisit and rethink those parts of the old game that I was more or less resigned to not paying much attention to just because I didn't really care for them.

I started in May/June-ish of 2005 IIRC... played regularly through 2010 then off and on til the end due mostly to workload.

I eventually got a couple of controller builds I liked but they still felt very static to me. Struggle struggle struggle, meager returns... I had a couple level 50's but the only one I remember liking was my Fire/FIre controller. Ashe Cinder - Freedom server IIRC. I like them in concept but I don't really do the rp thing so just in playstyle alone I didn't like how they worked. Turned out I was a blaster at heart. Did well with my tanks and scrappers too though. Defenders felt a little better than controllers but I rarely wanted to play a defender since most folks expected a defender to heal, so...

Gotta agree with you though the control mechanics sound pretty good from this update. I like the changes they are making to most the mechanics as I understood them from COH...
I wonder how long it will take an operator to become more powerful in COT compared to COH where as you said it took til 32ish to really feel very powerful.

Lothic wrote:

rookslide wrote:

I started in May/June-ish of 2005 IIRC... played regularly through 2010 then off and on til the end due mostly to workload.

I eventually got a couple of controller builds I liked but they still felt very static to me. Struggle struggle struggle, meager returns... I had a couple level 50's but the only one I remember liking was my Fire/FIre controller. Ashe Cinder - Freedom server IIRC. I like them in concept but I don't really do the rp thing so just in playstyle alone I didn't like how they worked. Turned out I was a blaster at heart. Did well with my tanks and scrappers too though. Defenders felt a little better than controllers but I rarely wanted to play a defender since most folks expected a defender to heal, so...

Gotta agree with you though the control mechanics sound pretty good from this update. I like the changes they are making to most the mechanics as I understood them from COH...
I wonder how long it will take an operator to become more powerful in COT compared to COH where as you said it took til 32ish to really feel very powerful.

Yeah I'll admit I probably liked my original Fire/Rad Controller the best likely because it was one of the most "offensively DPS" oriented Controller types available which made it play relatively quick for a Controller. By the same token I liked my main "triple Electric" Blaster because it was one of the most "Controller-ish" oriented Blaster types available. It played more like a Controller that had decent DPS which was sort of unique for CoH.

Because of these favorites I'm really looking forward to [url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]Operator/Executor[/url] in CoT. This going to be the "Controller Primary, Ranged Secondary" combo which should solve some of the "slowness" Controllers tended to have.

I still suspect Operators in general will have a "slower low level, faster high level" playstyle just like Controllers did in CoH. I don't really mind that - especially if like I said the Operator/Executor solves some of that problem of "lack of DPS".

I agree they Operators will probably still level a little slower than the DPS Classes but still I love the mechanics they are sharing about them. Funny you mention the Electric blaster trifecta, my brothers favorite character was the same.

The thing I like about this is it sounds like MWM is giving a lot of consideration to how playing will be whether you team or solo and whether you PVE or PVP. As a guy who probably soloed as much as or more than teamed this is a nice thing to see overall. If I can get some decent DPS out of the Operator/Executor then there is a role I can enjoy that I may not have tried for quite some time without knowing how forward thinking the mechanics appear.

I'm no developer or even staunch gamer but I do find myself conceptualizing how to build mechanics for games and the graded variations discussed in the update fall in line very much with some of my various concepts. Of course I've never built a game so I can't really say that any of my concepts made a lot of sense as part of a larger system as I was conceiving largely in a vacuum but I can say they seemed balanced to me as do the ones in the update.

This is the update I've been waiting for! My main in CoH was a Plant/Earth Dominator (yeah, I think I only got in about a year before Sunset... but it was a really nice year). When soloing, I loved the incredibly overpowered controls against mooks, but the fact that controls were completely useless in solo against supervillains (purple triangles notwithstanding) was... annoying.

With the nonbinary approach, it seems like everything can be solved. The controls can be "fairly" powered against mooks and actually have some use against higher-level foes. And the fact that these devs recognize how different controls were in CoH versus every other MMO I've played, and they repeatedly reiterate their intent to replicate and improve on that feeling, is very reassuring.

I'll have to wait for the Brigadier release to bring her back, but I know there's going to be plenty to play with until then! I've already got two characters planned out and probably more on the way for release, depending on costume sets and power customization options.

Super M. wrote:

I just really need the Control/Ranged archetype set to open up (I know its not at launch). Miss my Dominator playstyle! It also helps with the leveling up process.

Dominators in CoH were Control/Assault with the "assault" part being a mix of close ranged and melee powers. This made them play a bit more like Scrappers. The Control/Ranged combination will likely play a bit more like a Blaster (given that practically -all- of their primary/secondary powers will be ranged-oriented).

Super M. wrote:

I will be honest, Im kinda concerned with three classes having the Support pool available at launch (two secondaries and a primary). Stacking, diminishing returns, and double ups seem like there might be a decent amount of redundancy....BUT thats all tbd and Im worrying about ASSUMPTIONS.

The three classes you're referring to are the equivalent of CoH's Defender, Controller and Corruptor which all existed for years together in CoH without troubles. I don't see a problem with these three classes operating together in CoT.

With 3 sets of support powersets I mostly worry about some of my concepts that don't quite fit with having support as a secondary.

But it all depends on aesthetics and how soon one can gain tertiary power sets as to how large of a problem that will end up being for me, personally.

Also whenever we get an expanded look at what all the powersets will contain at launch as being able to get a better idea of what a set does and how it operates can help in figuring out what sets will fit my characters best.

It's a lot of "just wait and see" right now. At worst it just means my characters will either be benched until an appropriate archetype comes along, or I'll have to settle with something that doesn't fit my concept 100% until a more appropriate option comes along.

But also after seeing all the options we'll have I'll likely get even more ideas for characters.

Just have to wait and see, I guess.

Lothic wrote:

Super M. wrote:

I just really need the Control/Ranged archetype set to open up (I know its not at launch). Miss my Dominator playstyle! It also helps with the leveling up process.

Dominators in CoH were Control/Assault with the "assault" part being a mix of close ranged and melee powers. This made them play a bit more like Scrappers. The Control/Ranged combination will likely play a bit more like a Blaster (given that practically -all- of their primary/secondary powers will be ranged-oriented).

Super M. wrote:

I will be honest, Im kinda concerned with three classes having the Support pool available at launch (two secondaries and a primary). Stacking, diminishing returns, and double ups seem like there might be a decent amount of redundancy....BUT thats all tbd and Im worrying about ASSUMPTIONS.

The three classes you're referring to are the equivalent of CoH's Defender, Controller and Corruptor which all existed for years together in CoH without troubles. I don't see a problem with these three classes operating together in CoT.

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

Super M. wrote:

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Yeah it obviously depended on whether you used the "melee" part of the Assault secondary or not. I'm just saying the Operator/Executor is not going to be half-n-half ranged/melee like the Dominator could be - it's going to be completely ranged-oriented from both its primary and secondary.

Super M. wrote:

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

I'm well aware they didn't completely mix all the red/blue archetypes together until Going Rogue/Issue 18 was released. But that happened over two years before CoH was finally shutdown so that was plenty of time to see that everything worked out alright mixed like that. ;)

Lothic wrote:

Super M. wrote:

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Yeah it obviously depended on whether you used the "melee" part of the Assault secondary or not. I'm just saying the Operator/Executor is not going to be half-n-half ranged/melee like the Dominator could be - it's going to be completely ranged-oriented from both its primary and secondary.

Super M. wrote:

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

I'm well aware they didn't completely mix all the red/blue archetypes together until Going Rogue/Issue 18 was released. But that happened over two years before CoH was finally shutdown so that was plenty of time to see that everything worked out alright mixed like that. ;)

Well yes, but again, we had TONS of archetypes at that point. Any concern I have is legit just talking about release. =)

But its not really a deep rooted concern because the devs here have shown forethought constantly so I have faith in them.

In CoH there were:

Blasters = Ranged/Off-Mit Manipulation
Corrupters = Ranged/Support

It turns out "Off-Mit Manipulation" was usually a grab-bag of powers that included some offensive powers and pseudo-control powers. On the other hand "Support" tended to be more like heals and buffs of various kinds. Neither one of these had "Assault" secondaries (which tended to be strictly a mix of melee/ranged offensive powers).

Now to be clear CoT is launching with the [url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]Ranger/Partisan[/url] (which is the equivalent of the CoH Corruptor) but not launching with the [url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart]Ranger/Hunter[/url] (which is the equivalent of the CoH Blaster). I suppose if you want to be real picky the Ranger/Partisan will be "less DPS and more support" oriented than the Ranger/Hunter might be. But it'll still have the same primary Ranged powerset (and likely have access to offensive tertiaries) to still be effective.

Coming out of hiding like my pseudo-homonymous namesake...minus the existential, galactic threat, of course.

I really like the concept and I think it meshes very well with the great flexibility that's designed into the ATs and sets.
Among all the fantastic and thoughtful comments, I think these are most interesting:

Lothic wrote:

And actually this CoT system sounds like it's going to make Control powers more useful against big bosses too because even if you can't lock them down completely you'll still be able to disrupt their ability to smack you with their strongest powers. Seems like a win for us as players.

^ I agree. It seems like "weaker" builds may not have to rely on using tactics such as cornering, kiting, sniping, multiple temps, etc. to take down bosses.

Tannim222 wrote:

Control effects do not target the Willpower of another power, the affect true corresponding Control Paramter or “Stat”.

Check the update again for what these are and which effects apply to them.

Willpower is a rating which determines how easily or difficult it is for a power to be affected by a control effect.

If the control parameter is reduced below the Willpower threshold, the power is controlled.

Controls are improved by Augments which improve the Control effect’s value.

The duration is determined by a formula which checks the control effect value against the target’s Control parameters and the base duration. Ranks lower than a PC are easier to control and will be affected longer.

Improving your Cotnrol effect’s value with an Augment can then result in an improved duration as a result of the formula check but does not directly improve the base duration of the effect.

^I have a lot of catching up to do. Good summary here. Thanks!

Tannim222 wrote:

Example: 2; the charmed Stalwart is now hostile to you, you are taunted and hit the Stalwart with a charm, the affected Stalwart’s Powers will only affect those targets that are hostile to you. The other charmed powers from the enemy will continue to affect targets hostile to the enemy.

^Heehee...fun times!

Tannim222 wrote:

There are no Refinements that affect Willpower of Powers.

This is not to say that in the future there won’t be Sets with certain useful bonuses.

Hacing controls does not automatically necessitate able to mitigate controls better than others. Just like doing damage does not necessarily necessitate mitigating damage better than others.

If you want your Operators to have Protections from being controlled, take a Protection Tertiary.

Don’t roger the launch Operators have Support Secondaries which also come with ways to mitigate against Types and: / or will come with protections to Control effects.

The main way to mitigate against controls is not supposed to be about improving the Willpower rating, it is meant to be found in Defense Vs Controls or Resistwnce vs Types.

^Another good summary.

Lothic wrote:

Back with CoH's "binary" based system you usually had to manage to completely overwhelm a PC in PvP to affect them with ANY kind of control effect. Now under CoT you'll be able to at least "partially control" PCs even if you haven't (or more critically [b]can't[/b]) control them 100%.

Again people have to remember that technically PCs are like the equivalent of arch-villains (using the [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Category:Enemy_Rank]old style CoH enemy ranking terminology[/url]) so naturally they should be far harder to control than your average minion NPC. I've never understood why people thought perma-holding PCs in PvP was ever supposed to be easy and/or routine.

^If, in reality, CoT lands anywhere close to this, I might actually be interested in PvP. I was never interest in CoX PvP.

Redlynne wrote:

Catherine America wrote:

Coming out of hiding like my pseudo-homonymous namesake...minus the existential, galactic threat, of course.

Quick digression here, but I'm seriously in awe of how awesome your forum handle and avatar are for you.

I’m a big Captain America fan and apparently a bit of a Catherine America fan too.

desviper wrote:

I'm a big fan of knockback (less so with knockup). It's just so fun to send baddies flying!!

But I don't really understand the system here. So the knockback is scaled with the damage?

So if the damage is minimal, will they be knocked down, or simply unaffected?

Knock effects have their own value which determines the strength of the knock. If the value is reduced by defense vs control effects or resistance to the knock damage type, then the result if he knock is reduced. Every knock effect has a threshold determined by a formula based off the knock value. If the knock value is reduced beyond that threshold, the knock has no effect.

For example if a Knockback has an 8 meter displacement and it is reduced to where it would be less than a meter (again example only), the knockback has no effect.

My favorite 'Defender' was an 'Offender', whose purpose was to tip the balance in favor of herself and her comrades. She used her 'Support' powers to destroy the enemy. Then there's the one who Might have been a 'Corruptor', except 'Corruptors' didn't have access to Force-fields. She and her 'twin sister' played FIERCE, bubbling each other and Energy Blasting the villains through the walls!

Be Well!
Fireheart

Brand X wrote:

Is there different values for knock up? :) So the higher they'll go!

Different resistances and defenses between the knock up/back/down?

If you have a power with Knock Up, it will have a base value that determines how high the knock is on the target.

If you choose to improve the Knock with an Augment, it will result in a higher knock effect.

Protections to Knocks would be Defense vs Controls by style. Melee Defense vs Controls will proetect against Melee based controls.

Resistance reduces all effects by the type.
If you have Physicsl Resistance and the Knock is typesd Physical, the Knock will be reduced.