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Discuss: How it Works - Control Mechanics

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Empyrean
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I think if charmed you'll attack a random hostile of the charmer. I doubt you'd be able to freely choose which of your allies you hit.

Could be the tank, that blaster you don't like, or the healer trying to un-mez you.

Edit: It being random would be pretty great. Go to use your huge attack, spin around and crack the healer one, KOing them.

People will hate enemies that can charm, but that just means they'll be primary targets.

I never said or thought that you could choose, I said "notice they can attack". The problem is when it happens to be that blaster you don't like. Or if you're just a griefer by nature. Or a kid who doesn't get it.

I could be wrong--wouldn't be the first time--but I think this would be the new knockback in terms of being a contentious teaming issue. I say "would be" because happily it's easily fixed if MWM finds it is a problem through gameplay. Just take it away from most NPC's.

IMO in PvP it's a non-issue, though, because, well, PvP is just a whole different beast.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I think if charmed you'll attack a random hostile of the charmer. I doubt you'd be able to freely choose which of your allies you hit.

Could be the tank, that blaster you don't like, or the healer trying to un-mez you.

Edit: It being random would be pretty great. Go to use your huge attack, spin around and crack the healer one, KOing them.

People will hate enemies that can charm, but that just means they'll be primary targets.

I never said or thought that you could choose, I said "notice they can attack". The problem is when it happens to be that blaster you don't like. Or if you're just a griefer. Or a kid who doesn't get it.

You wouldn't be able to focus on that player however. You just wouldn't really feel bad for hitting them.

Like, I think it'd be random every time.

Activate power > hit blaster
Activate power > hit tank

And you wouldn't necessarily know when you -aren't- still charmed. The only way to find out is to keep attacking. Or stop attacking all together/wait to be healed from the mez.

Sure some people won't care that they're hitting allies, but they have no indication that they're charmed/still charmed. So there's not really a way you can be an obvious griefer like that. If your party decides that a player should just not attack after being hit by X attack and someone continually does, they'll be removed from the team pretty quick. Like 2-3 combats tops.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I think if charmed you'll attack a random hostile of the charmer. I doubt you'd be able to freely choose which of your allies you hit.

Could be the tank, that blaster you don't like, or the healer trying to un-mez you.

Edit: It being random would be pretty great. Go to use your huge attack, spin around and crack the healer one, KOing them.

People will hate enemies that can charm, but that just means they'll be primary targets.

I never said or thought that you could choose, I said "notice they can attack". The problem is when it happens to be that blaster you don't like. Or if you're just a griefer. Or a kid who doesn't get it.

You wouldn't be able to focus on that player however. You just wouldn't really feel bad for hitting them.

Like, I think it'd be random every time.

Activate power > hit blaster
Activate power > hit tank

And you wouldn't necessarily know when you -aren't- still charmed. The only way to find out is to keep attacking. Or stop attacking all together/wait to be healed from the mez.

Sure some people won't care that they're hitting allies, but they have no indication that they're charmed/still charmed. So there's not really a way you can be an obvious griefer like that. If your party decides that a player should just not attack after being hit by X attack and someone continually does, they'll be removed from the team pretty quick. Like 2-3 combats tops.

Ok, but none of this changes my point except for in that one case of charm focusing you on a particular teammate you don't like. In that case random targeting does fix that. But if you're a griefer and you go to town randomly on your teammates when Charmed, or you're not a very attentive player, or, again, a kid who doesn't understand the mechanic, it's all the same. A mechanic that facilitates a situation where someone needs to be removed from the team IS my point.

Now, if you simply don't agree with me that these events would be problematic, that's fine and I get it. I personally think the mechanic would be fun and I could be wrong that it will negatively affect teaming the way knockback sometimes did. Time will tell anyway, and it's fixable.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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It'll likely be hard to

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

The only time it'd facilite someone being removed from the team would be if the team agreed that if you get hit by X attack then you don't attack till you're cured. But even then there's margin for error. Didn't see the attack, thought you got healed, etc.

I don't think there's any way for people to really be able to police it, sure some people will get irrationality angry about it but some people do that anyway.

I just don't think it'll be anywhere near as big of a deal as you're thinking it will be. Griefing will happen, as it always does, this doesn't give people really any more of a tool than anything else. Likely with the random nature of it it'll be difficult to actively grief people with this mechanic. Especially when there are other more readily available tools to do so like pulling more mobs.

About the only way I could see someone using this to grief would be after they -know- they got hit with a charm effect to just try to use their biggest attacks as much as possible. Which has a pretty equal chance to help as well as hurt. Weren't fully charmed? Cool you just took out a bunch of enemies. We're fully charmed, but that attack wasn't affected and while using it others finished off the charmer.

And given the possibility of the danger with charms likely any enemy who charms will be a primary target, so they'll probably not live very long.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

I'm having a tough time imagining how Charm-based powers could be used consistently to grief people. I suppose there might be some kind of scenario where that comes up in CoT but I would think it would be a very rare thing regardless.

I don't recall cases of "charm griefing" in CoH - in fact I remember actively using it with other players in order to earn certain MOB defeat badges that would have been effectively impossible to earn otherwise (i.e. bluesiders earning the Longbow defeat badge). *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

I'm having a tough time imagining how Charm-based powers could be used consistently to grief people. I suppose there might be some kind of scenario where that comes up in CoT but I would think it would be a very rare thing regardless.

I don't recall cases of "charm griefing" in CoH - in fact I remember actively using it with other players in order to earn certain MOB defeat badges that would have been effectively impossible to earn otherwise (i.e. bluesiders earning the Longbow defeat badge). *shrugs*

Ok, so forget intentional griefing altogether. I still think Charm could (not unavoidably will, but could) magnify the irritation with accidentally bad gameplay, again, much the way knockback did. But in this case whether you pick a particular power set or not.

I had a tough time imagining how knockback could engender such rancor in others even while I was playing as a lead tank on a kb heavy team. But it did.

Anyway, at this point I feel I'm over-arguing the dangers of what is a very fixable problem, should it even arise :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I will try to catch up on

I will try to catch up on previous questions. If I missed any I’m sorry it isn’t intentional.

Hold disables powers and slows your movement. When you are fully held you can’t move or use any powers.

Disorient disables Powers and affects directional movement. Every time you move your direction can randomly change. When you are fully Disoriented, all movement is randomized.

Toggles and Switches suppress under a control.
Toggled-Timers go into cool down.

Permanent Powers can be suppressed as they have a willpower rating as well.

The Willpower rating is determined by a formula based off the power tier. At lower levels your powers have a greater distribution of Willpower ratings.

For example at level 10 when you have several tiers of powers your tier 3 powers will be affected before your tier 1 powers .

By leve 50 those powers are harder to control than a tier 8 Power (just using an example).

Yes if you are at a higher level and rely more on low tier powers, they will remain unaffected longer.

It will be virtually impossible to have completely effective builds thstnif ore higher tier powers among both power sets.
You cannot Refine the Willpower of a Power.

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.


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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'll likely be hard to differentiate between who's doing it on purpose and who isn't.

I'm having a tough time imagining how Charm-based powers could be used consistently to grief people. I suppose there might be some kind of scenario where that comes up in CoT but I would think it would be a very rare thing regardless.

I don't recall cases of "charm griefing" in CoH - in fact I remember actively using it with other players in order to earn certain MOB defeat badges that would have been effectively impossible to earn otherwise (i.e. bluesiders earning the Longbow defeat badge). *shrugs*

Ok, so forget intentional griefing altogether. I still think Charm could (not unavoidably will, but could) magnify the irritation with accidentally bad gameplay, again, much the way knockback did. But in this case whether you pick a particular power set or not.

I had a tough time imagining how knockback could engender such rancor in others even while I was playing as a lead tank on a kb heavy team. But it did.

Anyway, at this point I feel I'm over-arguing the dangers of what is a very fixable problem, should it even arise :).

Like everything else it'll be worth checking out during beta testing.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Like everything else it'll be worth checking out during beta testing.

Ha :)! Nice of you to say so. My arguing what what is more and more apparently at most a minor point probably has as much to do with my being off this morning and subconsciously wanting to put off my chores as anything else. And I drank a whole pot of coffee :P.

One point about Tannim's above post. If memory serves, CoH originally had controls shut down toggles but later got rid of most if not all control toggle shutdown because it made melee classes too vulnerable at times. It was the equivalent of a Super Reflexes cascade failure when it happened. If I'm reading correctly CoT will have controls shutdown not only toggles but even permanent powers at launch. Is the idea that the powers themselves and/or the classification of the player will give enough control resistance to mitigate this sufficiently in gameplay?

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Hopefully passive powers or

Hopefully passive powers or permanent power or whatever we call them will be harder to suppress than toggles.

Usually always on powers tend to be weaker than activated ones, so them being harder to suppress makes sense.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

. . . snip . . .

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.

I'm thinking that a lot of defensive powers, especially any "oh sh*t" power you have would have this modifier.
If the defensive power is a primary would that modifier be greater than it would if the defensive power was a secondary or tertiary?

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eislor wrote:
eislor wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

. . . snip . . .

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.

I'm thinking that a lot of defensive powers, especially any "oh sh*t" power you have would have this modifier.
If the defensive power is a primary would that modifier be greater than it would if the defensive power was a secondary or tertiary?

In think the beauty of this system is that every power could potentially get unique "willpower modifiers" to better adjust exactly how vulnerable to control effects the Devs want things to be. In this case I would think that powers in a primary poweset would be more resistant to control effects than others.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I came here to comment on how

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

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PhiloticKnight wrote:
PhiloticKnight wrote:

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

There's quite a few people on here. Some just show up for the updates, others post more regularly.

Either way I'm always glad to have more voices in the discourse.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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PhiloticKnight wrote:
PhiloticKnight wrote:

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

We all want a more enjoyable superhero mmo!

\o/

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

In think the beauty of this system is that every power could potentially get unique "willpower modifiers" to better adjust exactly how vulnerable to control effects the Devs want things to be. In this case I would think that powers in a primary poweset would be more resistant to control effects than others.

PhiloticKnight wrote:

I came here to comment on how, as a programmer, I think this change to the old CoH binary method is BRILLIANT. However, after coming here and seeing that there's already over two pages and dozens of comments already, I'm also amazed at how thriving this game's community had become. I had no idea....

The amount of forethought that is going into this game continues to impress. There is so much ability to adjust and develop as needed being built in that watching the game grow after launch is going to be exciting as hell.

My wife and I both have new laptops. My son is on deck for his. Let's get this show on the road :D!!!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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eislor wrote:
eislor wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

. . . snip . . .

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.

I'm thinking that a lot of defensive powers, especially any "oh sh*t" power you have would have this modifier.
If the defensive power is a primary would that modifier be greater than it would if the defensive power was a secondary or tertiary?

It does not matter if the power is Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary, the Willpower rating is determined by tier.

Also, with regards to “mushy” controls:
For pve we designed pawns by rank so that unimproved controls require: 1 Control to fully effect a mook, 1-2 stacking controls (depending on the hit roll) to fully effect an agent, and 2 stacking controls to fully effect a Boss. A critical Control takes 1 hit on all of them.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Also, with regards to “mushy” controls:
For pve we designed pawns by rank so that unimproved controls require: 1 Control to fully effect a mook, 1-2 stacking controls (depending on the hit roll) to fully effect an agent, and 2 stacking controls to fully effect a Boss. A critical Control takes 1 hit on all of them.

Yeah I figured the effort to "fully lock down" most things would not be that extraordinary unless the you're facing a top NPC boss or a PC in PvP.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I will try to catch up on previous questions. If I missed any I’m sorry it isn’t intentional. Toggled-Timers go into cool down.
...
Yes if you are at a higher level and rely more on low tier powers, they will remain unaffected longer.

It will be virtually impossible to have completely effective builds that ignore higher tier powers among both power sets.
You cannot Refine the Willpower of a Power.

Some powers have a modifier to their Willpower so they behave as if they were a lower tier than what the power’s true tier is.

1.) How can a player (you or a teammate or an opponent) judge whether you are close to losing control? Is there a visual cue?
Maybe swirly stars above your head, swirly cloud around your head, your UI starts to pulse or change color depending on what control effect is about to tip over the edge.

2.) The update and comments here so far say that you have to react to the loss of control (high tier powers, if you have them) or risk further loss of control (mid tier powers then lower tier).
How can another player help/assist a player that is at risk of losing control if the first sign of losing control is actually losing control?

3.) If some powers have modified Willpower stats, will that be a value that the player can see? Or will the players have to feel it out with testing and paying attention?

Thank you for following up.

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I’m convinced any potential

I’m convinced any potential problems can be addressed by the many tuning parameters the devs have. The concept as a whole is superb.

Here’s another question—what about second order controls? Let’s say I successfully charm a lieutenant mob. It then uses its charm power on its own mook. Does that mean the mook is my ally? For how long?

Or, let’s say my friend the tank gets charmed and accidentally taunts me. I then accidentally use my charm power on her. What happens?

I’m sure there’s a lot more variations of this theme. It sounds like crazy fun, but will it break the game mechanics?

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The question of wanting

The question of wanting information vs cluttering up menus is pretty easy and has been solved by many games before. Have in depth information available but by default hidden. One of the better ways to implement this is to have basic information available in any given menu with options to expand those menus to include more complicated stuff.

Diablo 3 has character information windows that are one example of this. You can get a basic summary of your character by glancing at it, and expand it to dig down into the gritty details to find out exactly how and why your character performs (and where to focus if you want to improve).

Other games have similar implementations but that was the first example that came to mind.

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1. Just as here was no way to

1. Just as here was no way to tell when you were about to fully control a target in any other game; the same applies here, when the target is fully controlled it will play the control animation. Remember there is a lot of customization that can be applied here, for those that remember our dance control video for an idea.

A single indicator is does a poor job of indicating what is primarily effecting the target. Using the “tipping point “ control will do little to say “fully controlled” because it could be edge cases of 4 or more control effects occurring.

2. You don’t “have to react” it is meant to more or less mean you have to change what you planned to do or use because of being controlled .

Players can’t really assist Ken another as I have. It designed very many “cleanse” powers most are ones that provide initial defense to protections

There are a few protection powers that provide a way to break controls that you could wait to use reactively but they may have more mileage use proactivly depending on the build.

The other way is to use a Reserve. For the majority of controls you will see on your power bar that powrs are affected.

3. All power attributes will be made available in the power window.


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Pleonast wrote:
Pleonast wrote:

I’m convinced any potential problems can be addressed by the many tuning parameters the devs have. The concept as a whole is superb.

Here’s another question—what about second order controls? Let’s say I successfully charm a lieutenant mob. It then uses its charm power on its own mook. Does that mean the mook is my ally? For how long?

Or, let’s say my friend the tank gets charmed and accidentally taunts me. I then accidentally use my charm power on her. What happens?

I’m sure there’s a lot more variations of this theme. It sounds like crazy fun, but will it break the game mechanics?

Example 1: the mook is charmed as your ally for the duration of the Agent’s chsrm effect.

Example: 2; the charmed Stalwart is now hostile to you, you are taunted and hit the Stalwart with a charm, the affected Stalwart’s Powers will only affect those targets that are hostile to you. The other charmed powers from the enemy will continue to affect targets hostile to the enemy.


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Great update. Lots of hard

Great update. Lots of hard work and thought seems to have been placed on this topic. CoT's modular approach will likely make balancing much easier, I'm guessing.
Will there be skills, enhancements/refinements or boosts that affect the willpower stat or willpower requirements for a skill (s)?
Will the CoT equivalent of breakfrees affect a specific control stat (eg separate boosts for volition, calm etc. or simply boost all relevant control stats? and will that include def, res for knock back ?

Again congrats on the fine update.

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Beeker wrote:
Beeker wrote:

Great update. Lots of hard work and thought seems to have been placed on this topic. CoT's modular approach will likely make balancing much easier, I'm guessing.
Will there be skills, enhancements/refinements or boosts that affect the willpower stat or willpower requirements for a skill (s)?
Will the CoT equivalent of breakfrees affect a specific control stat (eg separate boosts for volition, calm etc. or simply boost all relevant control stats? and will that include def, res for knock back ?

Again congrats on the fine update.

You can not Refine the Willpower of a Power.
There is a Mastery that affects the character’s
Willpower ratings.

There is a Reserve that removes all control effects and provides Defense to Controls for all Styles for a short duration., and since Knocks are under the Control system they are affected


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Will we be able to see

Will we be able to see Willpower modifiers, even if not during combat, so we can at least plan a character accordingly while planning a build?

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Will we be able to see Willpower modifiers, even if not during combat, so we can at least plan a character accordingly while planning a build?

Yes, all attributes of s power will be available in the power screen.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Pleonast wrote:

I’m convinced any potential problems can be addressed by the many tuning parameters the devs have. The concept as a whole is superb.

Here’s another question—what about second order controls? Let’s say I successfully charm a lieutenant mob. It then uses its charm power on its own mook. Does that mean the mook is my ally? For how long?

Or, let’s say my friend the tank gets charmed and accidentally taunts me. I then accidentally use my charm power on her. What happens?

I’m sure there’s a lot more variations of this theme. It sounds like crazy fun, but will it break the game mechanics?

Example 1: the mook is charmed as your ally for the duration of the Agent’s chsrm effect.

Example: 2; the charmed Stalwart is now hostile to you, you are taunted and hit the Stalwart with a charm, the affected Stalwart’s Powers will only affect those targets that are hostile to you. The other charmed powers from the enemy will continue to affect targets hostile to the enemy.

So, just to make sure. If a charmed player character uses a charm on another player character in a PvE area, the second character will gain the ability to attack the first character's enemies... which in PvE zones are the hostile NPCs, but not other player characters?

That would work out okay and take care of all but the most deliberately malicious edge cases. Making some No Charm areas around the places that are expected to be popular would take care of a lot of the rest. Players can be patient can pull enemies a long way just because they're there.

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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Pleonast wrote:

I’m convinced any potential problems can be addressed by the many tuning parameters the devs have. The concept as a whole is superb.

Here’s another question—what about second order controls? Let’s say I successfully charm a lieutenant mob. It then uses its charm power on its own mook. Does that mean the mook is my ally? For how long?

Or, let’s say my friend the tank gets charmed and accidentally taunts me. I then accidentally use my charm power on her. What happens?

I’m sure there’s a lot more variations of this theme. It sounds like crazy fun, but will it break the game mechanics?

Example 1: the mook is charmed as your ally for the duration of the Agent’s chsrm effect.

Example: 2; the charmed Stalwart is now hostile to you, you are taunted and hit the Stalwart with a charm, the affected Stalwart’s Powers will only affect those targets that are hostile to you. The other charmed powers from the enemy will continue to affect targets hostile to the enemy.

So, just to make sure. If a charmed player character uses a charm on another player character in a PvE area, the second character will gain the ability to attack the first character's enemies... which in PvE zones are the hostile NPCs, but not other player characters?

That would work out okay and take care of all but the most deliberately malicious edge cases. Making some No Charm areas around the places that are expected to be popular would take care of a lot of the rest. Players can be patient can pull enemies a long way just because they're there.

Npcs have tethers to their spawn point and can’t be pulled beyond their tether range.


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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.

As Tannim has said, some powers will have different Willpower ratings....so its very possible the Mez Resistant powers will have innate low Willpower, or some will and some wont, giving more strategy in the picking and layering of powers.

I can definitely see, if implemented well, these problems being addressed by the systems Tannim laid out.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.

Resistance resists everything of that type.

If you have Physical Resistance it will reduce any physical effect that hits.

The powers that provide Defense vs Cotnrol effects are typically in the tier 3 slot a few sets have them found in the tier 4 slot. Tiers which are found when npcs start showing up with control effects but not yet common among them. These powers also have modifiers to their Will Power rating so they don’t get suppressed until the very last with your basic powers.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I worry about defensive powers, especially ones designed to resist Mez, being de-toggled by willpower-reduction... In CoH a lot of the status-resist powers of a Tanker/Scrapper required higher levels to become available. If one has to wait until higher level to get mez-resist and the willpower-cost is higher, as well, then one might easily suffer a 'cascade failure', resulting in disaster.

I think this is a valid concern. I guess we'll see how it is implemented.

Resistance resists everything of that type.

If you have Physical Resistance it will reduce any physical effect that hits.

The powers that provide Defense vs Cotnrol effects are typically in the tier 3 slot a few sets have them found in the tier 4 slot. Tiers which are found when npcs start showing up with control effects but not yet common among them. These powers also have modifiers to their Will Power rating so they don’t get suppressed until the very last with your basic powers.

And thats the kind of awesome fore thought that we know you guys for. Thank you for your commitment to this game, your time, and this update.

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Y'all never saw the Atlas

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.
I was there right alongside all of you. This is something that WAS in the old game: succubi etc.
1: Open world dueling: Doesn't happen in garden areas, if you leave the duel the effects vanish.
2: Yes, perhaps there was a reason you never saw succubi in low level zones.
3: Zoning makes the effects vanish. Sure, you can abuse that but it's a lesser risk.
(there are things like zoning that are not zoning, still counts a bit.)
We are talking about things we _can_ do. Not always things that are all over the place.
Don't worry. I used to run with the Circle of Jerks, I know how they rolled, I know griefing.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.

I remember it. I remember it being because of RV's entrance in AP. I remember it being because of certain status effects not getting dropped due to zoning. I remember it being used by a bunch of ***** on our server.

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PVP/PVE universal rules

PVP/PVE universal rules introduce a double edged sword concept. One tweak to make the PVE aspect more fun/enjoyable causes an unfair PVP advantage, tweaking the PVP so that its not so overwhelming removes the enjoyment from PVE. This balancing act places the game in a terrible position of having to choose between two completely different environments. If you segregate PVP from PVE power effects at the beginning, you no longer have to punish one environment in favor of another. PVP should be fun, and control effects should exist but in a much more diminished capacity, allowing for minor distractions rather than overwhelming control. While in PVE control effects can mitigate the impact adds have on an encounter allowing NPCs to be 'overwhelmed' or boss level NPCs to be inconvenienced. PVP and PVE are so different you do not want to try to balance them together as both will never measure up to what they could be.

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If PvP controls become a

If PvP controls become a minor distraction an entire Archetype is affective negatively.

We use certain standard metrics to set up our bases of design.

From there, if something is off in either pve or PvP but not in he other, we can adjust without affecting where things work .


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valhalid wrote:
valhalid wrote:

PVP/PVE universal rules introduce a double edged sword concept. One tweak to make the PVE aspect more fun/enjoyable causes an unfair PVP advantage, tweaking the PVP so that its not so overwhelming removes the enjoyment from PVE. This balancing act places the game in a terrible position of having to choose between two completely different environments. If you segregate PVP from PVE power effects at the beginning, you no longer have to punish one environment in favor of another. PVP should be fun, and control effects should exist but in a much more diminished capacity, allowing for minor distractions rather than overwhelming control. While in PVE control effects can mitigate the impact adds have on an encounter allowing NPCs to be 'overwhelmed' or boss level NPCs to be inconvenienced. PVP and PVE are so different you do not want to try to balance them together as both will never measure up to what they could be.

I understand your concerns but I actually think what MWM is proposing here for their control mechanics actually goes pretty far towards unifying a workable "PvE control scheme" and "PvP control scheme" under one continuous system as Tannim just implied.

Instead of having to make a bunch of unique kludges in order to make controls work under both environments this system should be able to handle both just by applying various streamlined modifiers and by staying true to the "non-binary" nature of the control effects which will mitigate the traditional problem of perma-holds in PvP.

Obviously this system will need to be playtested and PvP in CoT is likely a long way off regardless. Still this system shows real promise at being able to adequately work under both PvE and PvP by design without having to be highly re-engineered to make it work in one or the other.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.
I was there right alongside all of you. This is something that WAS in the old game: succubi etc.
1: Open world dueling: Doesn't happen in garden areas, if you leave the duel the effects vanish.
2: Yes, perhaps there was a reason you never saw succubi in low level zones.
3: Zoning makes the effects vanish. Sure, you can abuse that but it's a lesser risk.
(there are things like zoning that are not zoning, still counts a bit.)
We are talking about things we _can_ do. Not always things that are all over the place.
Don't worry. I used to run with the Circle of Jerks, I know how they rolled, I know griefing.

Oh right that was a thing. My main go-to example of jerks being a little too creative is that boss attack in WoW that caused people in an AoE around you to get infected and explode or something. Which they managed to take out of the instance and run around town, making other people explode and spreading the AoE so other people would make people explode, too.

I'm glad you're trying to jerk-proof the game. There is, of course, always a bigger jerk, but jerk-proof enough and it'll be rare enough that it can be dealt with on an individual basis, hopefully. Or caught in Beta. I'll gladly play the role of jerk or victim to stomp out stuff like that before launch.

And if Charms on NPCs somehow become a problem, but it works as intended in PvP, well... The NPC charmer's attack can be adjusted to maybe not last as long, but be applied more often.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.

I remember it. I remember it being because of RV's entrance in AP. I remember it being because of certain status effects not getting dropped due to zoning. I remember it being used by a bunch of ***** on our server.

I'm not saying we've thought of everything. I'm saying we were right there with you and we _remember_ all the dirty little tricks people used, and we're doing our best to make sure they don't show up again.

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Very interesting system!

Very interesting system! Looking forward to taking an Operator or two out for a spin in the future.

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Teleport Other off the world

Teleport Other off the world ceiling was a thing.

SWTOR you could stealth in a must-flag pvp area, and get hit by stray AOEs on purpose, causing the player to flag, then you could kill him without being flagged yourself.

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Operators going to be my

Operators going to be my first and main, specifically Force Control, so Im super excited to learn more about it.

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Sadly I don't have time to

Sadly I don't have time to read all the replies and commentary in this thread, just the announcement.

So far, I like what I'm seeing.

The notion of having the higher tier Powers being the first to "succumb" to control effects is certainly a very interesting way to leverage the tier system for Powers. And although it isn't mentioned in the announcement directly, I for one would very much like to see the way that Willpower (essentially, protection from Controls) gets calculated as being something where actually having Control Powers yourself will boost your own Willpower stats versus those Control types relative to someone who doesn't have any Control powers at all. It was always extremely ridiculous to me that Mind Controllers (and indeed, any Controllers, really) were utterly defenseless against being Controlled in City of Heroes.

Depending how stuff is set up behind the scenes, you could even rig it as Powers that have Control effects get a boost to the Willpower of that specific power to protect against that type of Control. So, for example, a Hold Power would get +1 Willpower versus Holds applied to that specific Power. That way, you wouldn't necessarily have a regularized "predictable" stairstep of Willpower thresholds that never varies among Operator PCs (or even NPCs!). Instead, depending on your build, there could be some rather significant variation in Willpower thresholds for specific powers, based on your build choices, at variance from the default baseline.

The other thing that suggests itself is that there ought to be a boost to Willpower essentially "across the board" based on what your Primary/Secondary powerset is. Something like a (for illustration purposes only) +2 to all Willpower if your Primary is either Protection or Manipulation ... and a +1 to all Willpower if your Secondary is either Protection or Manipulation. I'm just tossing numbers to illustrate the concept, not as inviolate markers or anything. The same sort of principle could apply to things like Leadership Pool toggles (Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics) that we remember, offering broad based Willpower boosting to all Powers your character has, regardless of Archetype.

In other words, there's lots of useful customization available with even the quick glimpse of the system we've been offered so as to make HOW a specific PC responds to Control effects be something unique and personal to THAT PC, rather than being something which is a foregone conclusion set in stone before character creation even began.


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There is a Ranger Mastery

There is a Ranger Mastery that affects the formula to determine Wilpower of the Ranger’smpowers.

Because this is a Masterybwe are doing our best to keep this a unique effect.

There are no Refinements that affect Willpower of Powers.

This is not to say that in the future there won’t be Sets with certain useful bonuses.

Hacing controls does not automatically necessitate able to mitigate controls better than others. Just like doing damage does not necessarily necessitate mitigating damage better than others.

If you want your Operators to have Protections from being controlled, take a Protection Tertiary.

Don’t roger the launch Operators have Support Secondaries which also come with ways to mitigate against Types and: / or will come with protections to Control effects.

The main way to mitigate against controls is not supposed to be about improving the Willpower rating, it is meant to be found in Defense Vs Controls or Resistwnce vs Types.


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Might there be Defense v.

Might there be Defense v. Controls buffs available to Support characters?

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Might there be Defense v. Controls buffs available to Support characters?

Some Support Sets may offer Defense vs Controls. Again, don’t forget that Resistwnce works can everything if that type. And there is also the option to take a Protection Tertiary.


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If you double up on

If you double up on protection sets (if that's a viable option, getting a protection tertiary when you already have one as a primary/secondary) would you net double the protections to controls (minus diminishing returns of course)?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

If you double up on protection sets (if that's a viable option, getting a protection tertiary when you already have one as a primary/secondary) would you net double the protections to controls (minus diminishing returns of course)?

No. Effects stack by Output which is its own form of diminishing returns.


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hrmmm...I like what I see but

hrmmm...I like what I see but I have a few questions:
I am assuming there are a couple things that happen in order to determin control: first, hit the target then it's effectively Willpower of the control vs the target's Willpower on their various abilities? defensive powers set to resist control effectively go against the "to hit" modifier...I assume this given the Willpower itself cannot be augmented/modified by the players.

Assuming the control hits, does it calculate against all powers at the same time to determine which powers are "controlled" or does it roll through the list one at a time getting weaker the further it goes? I am assuming the former vs the later...

how does an operator improve his controls? I would assume he can modify the "to hit" chance and the duration...but NOT the actual willpower itself of the control ability given the target cannot modify the Willpower on the defensive side of the house?

not sure how clear that came out, it's late and I should be asleep...heh
eitherway, seems interesting and looking forward to seeing how it plays out in a live game play setting. :)

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

hrmmm...I like what I see but I have a few questions:
I am assuming there are a couple things that happen in order to determin control: first, hit the target then it's effectively Willpower of the control vs the target's Willpower on their various abilities? defensive powers set to resist control effectively go against the "to hit" modifier...I assume this given the Willpower itself cannot be augmented/modified by the players.

Assuming the control hits, does it calculate against all powers at the same time to determine which powers are "controlled" or does it roll through the list one at a time getting weaker the further it goes? I am assuming the former vs the later...

how does an operator improve his controls? I would assume he can modify the "to hit" chance and the duration...but NOT the actual willpower itself of the control ability given the target cannot modify the Willpower on the defensive side of the house?

not sure how clear that came out, it's late and I should be asleep...heh
eitherway, seems interesting and looking forward to seeing how it plays out in a live game play setting. :)

Control effects do not target the Willpower of another power, the affect true corresponding Control Paramter or “Stat”.

Check the update again for what these are and which effects apply to them.

Willpower is a rating which determines how easily or difficult it is for a power to be affected by a control effect.

If the control parameter is reduced below the Willpower threshold, the power is controlled.

Controls are improved by Augments which improve the Control effect’s value.

The duration is determined by a formula which checks the control effect value against the target’s Control parameters and the base duration. Ranks lower than a PC are easier to control and will be affected longer.

Improving your Cotnrol effect’s value with an Augment can then result in an improved duration as a result of the formula check but does not directly improve the base duration of the effect.


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This kind of reminds me of my

This kind of reminds me of my Electric Blaster from CoH, with her End Drain tactic. The enemies weren't completely subdued, no, but they weren't going to break out their big attacks when they didn't have any blue bar. If she really wanted, she could stack Holds to lock someone down, but most of the time, the enemies were left in this semi-controlled, but mostly harmless state while being blasted/punched.

I could see a Ranger picking up some controls play very similar to this. And that was one of my favorite builds in the old game.

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I'll be awilling to comment

I'll be awilling to comment on mez effects and how they're handled when I get to play it. Having played CoX, GW2, and now Overwatch, I feel that the short time duration of the mez effects in the latter two games is largely responsible for the PvP and PvE balance they have.

I know a lot of people like being able to shut down a whole mob for a long time, I mean who doesn't, but as I've said before I think that's just the control freak in all of us rearing its ugly head. Trying to please those people is not something I recommend doing. To make the same old Magic: the Gathering analogy, the Magic deck that's all counterspells is never any fun to play against, and worst of all it doesn't even kill you when it has you locked, it just sits there and waits for you to concede the game or else lose 4 hours later after you draw your last card.

That said, one thing I HATE about Overwatch is the fact that, since it's "action targeting" i.e. "twichyness matters", you end up having to press "a" and "d" and "spacebar" a lot just when you're standing around to make your character duck and dive and jump so that it's harder for snipers to line you up and get a clean shot off. I do NOT want CoT to be a game that requires that of people.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Y'all never saw the Atlas Nukes? People figured out how to nuke people right in Atlas Park.

I remember it. I remember it being because of RV's entrance in AP. I remember it being because of certain status effects not getting dropped due to zoning. I remember it being used by a bunch of ***** on our server.

I'm not saying we've thought of everything. I'm saying we were right there with you and we _remember_ all the dirty little tricks people used, and we're doing our best to make sure they don't show up again.

Well, I think you, collectively as a company, have done an impressive job hammering out many of the devilish details. And that's not to say that you'll catch everything, as you stated, but at least I'm under the impression that many things were taken under consideration.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I'll be awilling to comment on mez effects and how they're handled when I get to play it. Having played CoX, GW2, and now Overwatch, I feel that the short time duration of the mez effects in the latter two games is largely responsible for the PvP and PvE balance they have.

I know a lot of people like being able to shut down a whole mob for a long time, I mean who doesn't, but as I've said before I think that's just the control freak in all of us rearing its ugly head. Trying to please those people is not something I recommend doing. To make the same old Magic: the Gathering analogy, the Magic deck that's all counterspells is never any fun to play against, and worst of all it doesn't even kill you when it has you locked, it just sits there and waits for you to concede the game or else lose 4 hours later after you draw your last card.

That said, one thing I HATE about Overwatch is the fact that, since it's "action targeting" i.e. "twichyness matters", you end up having to press "a" and "d" and "spacebar" a lot just when you're standing around to make your character duck and dive and jump so that it's harder for snipers to line you up and get a clean shot off. I do NOT want CoT to be a game that requires that of people.

I still think the one thing people are missing from this is that it's likely going to be far harder to "lock down" the average PC in CoT than the average NPC. This system is going to be flexible enough to allow PCs to have far more "binary protection" from controls (based on the stat values differences between PCs and NPCs) thus allowing people to BOTH lock down huge MOBs of NPCs in PvE while NOT being able to perma-lock PCs in PvP. It's really going to be the best of both worlds.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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There is always the argument

There is always the argument that bad control is bad. What I mean is, If you CAN lock someone down, you want to, so you play that class or those powers. If you throw such powers at the opponent and it DOESN'T do that, then what does it do? And how is that better or even as good as doing damage?

I'm not arguing all powers should be equal, or all classes, just that if you're trying to balance what controller types do in PvE and PvP you want them to at least be similar in both and to be viable in both. That's not easy, given that what you want to do in PvE is completely shut the NPCs out, whereas doing that to another player is a way different can of worms in the metagame.

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This looks very interesting.

This looks very interesting.

I look forward to being utterly confused by the game mechanics when this launches. There is no teacher like failure and pain.

My first CoH toon was a blaster and I took taunt and all of the powers in the fitness pool early. Let me tell you, I learned something from that experience......OOOF

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

There is always the argument that bad control is bad. What I mean is, If you CAN lock someone down, you want to, so you play that class or those powers. If you throw such powers at the opponent and it DOESN'T do that, then what does it do? And how is that better or even as good as doing damage?

I'm not arguing all powers should be equal, or all classes, just that if you're trying to balance what controller types do in PvE and PvP you want them to at least be similar in both and to be viable in both. That's not easy, given that what you want to do in PvE is completely shut the NPCs out, whereas doing that to another player is a way different can of worms in the metagame.

Why would I be arguing that this system of controls would NOT be viable in PvP? If as a controller you can't accept a system that won't let you as easily perma-lock a PC in PvP as it would let you perma-lock a bunch of NPCs that's your problem, not the game's.

I'd have no problem with a game that let me lock NPCs with one application of a power whereas it might take 2 or 3 castings to lock a PC down. No problem with that at all. The reason for that is obvious - PCs are typically FAR MORE POWERFUL than your average NPC. Why shouldn't it be harder to control them?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I plan on having a psychic

I plan on having a psychic controller. I’m okay if it’s hard to fully lock down a player as long as my powers do something meaningful. Slow them down, raise cooldowns, block a couple powers, etc.

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I plan on having a psychic

I plan on having a psychic controller. I’m okay if it’s hard to fully lock down a player as long as my powers do something meaningful. Slow them down, raise cooldowns, block a couple powers, etc.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I plan on having a psychic controller. I’m okay if it’s hard to fully lock down a player as long as my powers do something meaningful. Slow them down, raise cooldowns, block a couple powers, etc.

I'm sure they will have significant effects under this system. Back with CoH's "binary" based system you usually had to manage to completely overwhelm a PC in PvP to affect them with ANY kind of control effect. Now under CoT you'll be able to at least "partially control" PCs even if you haven't (or more critically can't) control them 100%.

Again people have to remember that technically PCs are like the equivalent of arch-villains (using the old style CoH enemy ranking terminology) so naturally they should be far harder to control than your average minion NPC. I've never understood why people thought perma-holding PCs in PvP was ever supposed to be easy and/or routine.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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TriNitroToluene wrote:
TriNitroToluene wrote:

This looks very interesting.

I look forward to being utterly confused by the game mechanics when this launches. There is no teacher like failure and pain.

My first CoH toon was a blaster and I took taunt and all of the powers in the fitness pool early. Let me tell you, I learned something from that experience......OOOF

heh heh heh I bet you did! lol

My first character was a controller IIRC and I don't think I ever got that one over level 14. Just didn't like the mechanics or feel of the role. Took a long time for me to really appreciate the controller role. I think the mechanics they are developing for COT operators are a bit more sophisticated and dynamic compared to COH controllers. Thanks to this update they are sounding much better to me than they did in COH.

This is what I dig about updates like this one. They make me revisit and rethink those parts of the old game that I was more or less resigned to not paying much attention to just because I didn't really care for them.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

My first character was a controller IIRC and I don't think I ever got that one over level 14. Just didn't like the mechanics or feel of the role. Took a long time for me to really appreciate the controller role. I think the mechanics they are developing for COT operators are a bit more sophisticated and dynamic compared to COH controllers. Thanks to this update they are sounding much better to me than they did in COH.

This is what I dig about updates like this one. They make me revisit and rethink those parts of the old game that I was more or less resigned to not paying much attention to just because I didn't really care for them.

Did you start playing CoH pretty much from the beginning or did you start out a few years into it? The reason I ask is that at the very beginning of CoH leveling up a Controller was a pretty slow and daunting task. I was a fairly regular player (with only a handful of main alts) but it probably still took me the better part of a year to get my first Controller to 50. As the game evolved over the years leveling up -any- character became much, much easier.

Even as a lover of the CoH Controller archetype I'll admit it was sort of an acquired taste. Most of them didn't seriously get fun to play until you got past level 32 and got their 9th tier pet powers. Once you had all of their powers to work with Controllers became very cool and powerful. I'm seriously looking forward to playing the CoT Operator based on my hours of Controllery fun I had in CoH. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I started in May/June-ish of

I started in May/June-ish of 2005 IIRC... played regularly through 2010 then off and on til the end due mostly to workload.

I eventually got a couple of controller builds I liked but they still felt very static to me. Struggle struggle struggle, meager returns... I had a couple level 50's but the only one I remember liking was my Fire/FIre controller. Ashe Cinder - Freedom server IIRC. I like them in concept but I don't really do the rp thing so just in playstyle alone I didn't like how they worked. Turned out I was a blaster at heart. Did well with my tanks and scrappers too though. Defenders felt a little better than controllers but I rarely wanted to play a defender since most folks expected a defender to heal, so...

Gotta agree with you though the control mechanics sound pretty good from this update. I like the changes they are making to most the mechanics as I understood them from COH...
I wonder how long it will take an operator to become more powerful in COT compared to COH where as you said it took til 32ish to really feel very powerful.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I started in May/June-ish of 2005 IIRC... played regularly through 2010 then off and on til the end due mostly to workload.

I eventually got a couple of controller builds I liked but they still felt very static to me. Struggle struggle struggle, meager returns... I had a couple level 50's but the only one I remember liking was my Fire/FIre controller. Ashe Cinder - Freedom server IIRC. I like them in concept but I don't really do the rp thing so just in playstyle alone I didn't like how they worked. Turned out I was a blaster at heart. Did well with my tanks and scrappers too though. Defenders felt a little better than controllers but I rarely wanted to play a defender since most folks expected a defender to heal, so...

Gotta agree with you though the control mechanics sound pretty good from this update. I like the changes they are making to most the mechanics as I understood them from COH...
I wonder how long it will take an operator to become more powerful in COT compared to COH where as you said it took til 32ish to really feel very powerful.

Yeah I'll admit I probably liked my original Fire/Rad Controller the best likely because it was one of the most "offensively DPS" oriented Controller types available which made it play relatively quick for a Controller. By the same token I liked my main "triple Electric" Blaster because it was one of the most "Controller-ish" oriented Blaster types available. It played more like a Controller that had decent DPS which was sort of unique for CoH.

Because of these favorites I'm really looking forward to the Operator/Executor in CoT. This going to be the "Control Primary, Ranged Secondary" combo which should solve some of the "slowness" Controllers tended to have.

I still suspect Operators in general will have a "slower low level, faster high level" playstyle just like Controllers did in CoH. I don't really mind that - especially if like I said the Operator/Executor solves some of that problem of "lack of DPS" that tended to make Controllers slow.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
rookslide wrote:

I started in May/June-ish of 2005 IIRC... played regularly through 2010 then off and on til the end due mostly to workload.

I eventually got a couple of controller builds I liked but they still felt very static to me. Struggle struggle struggle, meager returns... I had a couple level 50's but the only one I remember liking was my Fire/FIre controller. Ashe Cinder - Freedom server IIRC. I like them in concept but I don't really do the rp thing so just in playstyle alone I didn't like how they worked. Turned out I was a blaster at heart. Did well with my tanks and scrappers too though. Defenders felt a little better than controllers but I rarely wanted to play a defender since most folks expected a defender to heal, so...

Gotta agree with you though the control mechanics sound pretty good from this update. I like the changes they are making to most the mechanics as I understood them from COH...
I wonder how long it will take an operator to become more powerful in COT compared to COH where as you said it took til 32ish to really feel very powerful.

Yeah I'll admit I probably liked my original Fire/Rad Controller the best likely because it was one of the most "offensively DPS" oriented Controller types available which made it play relatively quick for a Controller. By the same token I liked my main "triple Electric" Blaster because it was one of the most "Controller-ish" oriented Blaster types available. It played more like a Controller that had decent DPS which was sort of unique for CoH.

Because of these favorites I'm really looking forward to Operator/Executor in CoT. This going to be the "Controller Primary, Ranged Secondary" combo which should solve some of the "slowness" Controllers tended to have.

I still suspect Operators in general will have a "slower low level, faster high level" playstyle just like Controllers did in CoH. I don't really mind that - especially if like I said the Operator/Executor solves some of that problem of "lack of DPS".

I agree they Operators will probably still level a little slower than the DPS Classes but still I love the mechanics they are sharing about them. Funny you mention the Electric blaster trifecta, my brothers favorite character was the same.

The thing I like about this is it sounds like MWM is giving a lot of consideration to how playing will be whether you team or solo and whether you PVE or PVP. As a guy who probably soloed as much as or more than teamed this is a nice thing to see overall. If I can get some decent DPS out of the Operator/Executor then there is a role I can enjoy that I may not have tried for quite some time without knowing how forward thinking the mechanics appear.

I'm no developer or even staunch gamer but I do find myself conceptualizing how to build mechanics for games and the graded variations discussed in the update fall in line very much with some of my various concepts. Of course I've never built a game so I can't really say that any of my concepts made a lot of sense as part of a larger system as I was conceiving largely in a vacuum but I can say they seemed balanced to me as do the ones in the update.

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Amazing idea!!!!! I wanna

Amazing idea!!!!! I wanna play City of Titans!!!!! (after CoH i never more play any mmo game... just w8 for CoT)

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This is the update I've been

This is the update I've been waiting for! My main in CoH was a Plant/Earth Dominator (yeah, I think I only got in about a year before Sunset... but it was a really nice year). When soloing, I loved the incredibly overpowered controls against mooks, but the fact that controls were completely useless in solo against supervillains (purple triangles notwithstanding) was... annoying.

With the nonbinary approach, it seems like everything can be solved. The controls can be "fairly" powered against mooks and actually have some use against higher-level foes. And the fact that these devs recognize how different controls were in CoH versus every other MMO I've played, and they repeatedly reiterate their intent to replicate and improve on that feeling, is very reassuring.

I'll have to wait for the Brigadier release to bring her back, but I know there's going to be plenty to play with until then! I've already got two characters planned out and probably more on the way for release, depending on costume sets and power customization options.

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I just really need the

I just really need the Control/Ranged archetype set to open up (I know its not at launch). Miss my Dominator playstyle! It also helps with the leveling up process.

Edit: Executor will be my jam but Brigadier seems interesting too!

I will be honest, Im kinda concerned with three classes having the Support pool available at launch (two secondaries and a primary). Stacking, diminishing returns, and double ups seem like there might be a decent amount of redundancy....BUT thats all tbd and Im worrying about ASSUMPTIONS.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I just really need the Control/Ranged archetype set to open up (I know its not at launch). Miss my Dominator playstyle! It also helps with the leveling up process.

Dominators in CoH were Control/Assault with the "assault" part being a mix of close ranged and melee powers. This made them play a bit more like Scrappers. The Control/Ranged combination will likely play a bit more like a Blaster (given that practically -all- of their primary/secondary powers will be ranged-oriented).

Super M. wrote:

I will be honest, Im kinda concerned with three classes having the Support pool available at launch (two secondaries and a primary). Stacking, diminishing returns, and double ups seem like there might be a decent amount of redundancy....BUT thats all tbd and Im worrying about ASSUMPTIONS.

The three classes you're referring to are the equivalent of CoH's Defender, Controller and Corruptor which all existed for years together in CoH without troubles. I don't see a problem with these three classes operating together in CoT.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I’m not concerned about

I’m not concerned about amount of available support powers when it comes to stacking. Since Outputs stack for buffs and debuffs there is a system of diminishing returns.

It takes quite a bit of stacking outputs to get to the point where the return eon’t feel justified. At least until we get to the first major release unlocking level 50. Even then the buffs stacks would only be an issue of dr on Stalwarts with certain kinds of protections if they were grouped with people with the same type of buff effect.

The rest of the time it shouldn’t be much of an issue.


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With 3 sets of support

With 3 sets of support powersets I mostly worry about some of my concepts that don't quite fit with having support as a secondary.

But it all depends on aesthetics and how soon one can gain tertiary power sets as to how large of a problem that will end up being for me, personally.

Also whenever we get an expanded look at what all the powersets will contain at launch as being able to get a better idea of what a set does and how it operates can help in figuring out what sets will fit my characters best.

It's a lot of "just wait and see" right now. At worst it just means my characters will either be benched until an appropriate archetype comes along, or I'll have to settle with something that doesn't fit my concept 100% until a more appropriate option comes along.

But also after seeing all the options we'll have I'll likely get even more ideas for characters.

Just have to wait and see, I guess.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

With 3 sets of support powersets I mostly worry about some of my concepts that don't quite fit with having support as a secondary.

But it all depends on aesthetics and how soon one can gain tertiary power sets as to how large of a problem that will end up being for me, personally.

Also whenever we get an expanded look at what all the powersets will contain at launch as being able to get a better idea of what a set does and how it operates can help in figuring out what sets will fit my characters best.

It's a lot of "just wait and see" right now. At worst it just means my characters will either be benched until an appropriate archetype comes along, or I'll have to settle with something that doesn't fit my concept 100% until a more appropriate option comes along.

But also after seeing all the options we'll have I'll likely get even more ideas for characters.

Just have to wait and see, I guess.

I can understand that there might be some cause for concern.

It happens often enough that many people see you're playing a character that *can* be spec'd for support, and assume that you *are* or think that you *should/must be* such. Given that there's no direct/pure Ranged DPS class available at launch, anyone trying to emulate a Blaster could feel the sting of this.

"Why aren't you healing?"
"I'm a DPS"
"But you're playing a Support."
"No, I'm playing the Ranged DPS class."
"That has Support."

That's not to say that I think people *should* ignore half their powers(ets), I'm saying that at launch there's simply no other option for playing purely Ranged DPS, which given how popular Blasters were there's obviously demand for.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I just really need the Control/Ranged archetype set to open up (I know its not at launch). Miss my Dominator playstyle! It also helps with the leveling up process.

Dominators in CoH were Control/Assault with the "assault" part being a mix of close ranged and melee powers. This made them play a bit more like Scrappers. The Control/Ranged combination will likely play a bit more like a Blaster (given that practically -all- of their primary/secondary powers will be ranged-oriented).

Super M. wrote:

I will be honest, Im kinda concerned with three classes having the Support pool available at launch (two secondaries and a primary). Stacking, diminishing returns, and double ups seem like there might be a decent amount of redundancy....BUT thats all tbd and Im worrying about ASSUMPTIONS.

The three classes you're referring to are the equivalent of CoH's Defender, Controller and Corruptor which all existed for years together in CoH without troubles. I don't see a problem with these three classes operating together in CoT.

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

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I guess with decent party

I guess with decent party size and say 2 other similar supports along, will your Support/Damage feel justified, as opposed to just being another Damage/Support, considering many mmos are based on focus fire and defense through offense, at least on non boss fights.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Yeah it obviously depended on whether you used the "melee" part of the Assault secondary or not. I'm just saying the Operator/Executor is not going to be half-n-half ranged/melee like the Dominator could be - it's going to be completely ranged-oriented from both its primary and secondary.

Super M. wrote:

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

I'm well aware they didn't completely mix all the red/blue archetypes together until Going Rogue/Issue 18 was released. But that happened over two years before CoH was finally shutdown so that was plenty of time to see that everything worked out alright mixed like that. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

...Given that there's no direct/pure Ranged DPS class available at launch, anyone trying to emulate a Blaster could feel the sting of this.

??? There are 5 ranged DPS sets to choose from at launch; Force Blast, Lethality, Vampiric Blast, Atrophic Blast, and Psychic Blast.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Nah, I didn't go anywhere near a scrapper like playstyle with my dominator. I most definitely played Control and Range. I guess it depended on how you built it.

Yeah it obviously depended on whether you used the "melee" part of the Assault secondary or not. I'm just saying the Operator/Executor is not going to be half-n-half ranged/melee like the Dominator could be - it's going to be completely ranged-oriented from both its primary and secondary.

Super M. wrote:

Corruptors weren't made when the game only have 5 initial ATs, and even longer before they could interact with the others, thats my concern, but as Tannim said with what they have in place Im not as worried.

I'm well aware they didn't completely mix all the red/blue archetypes together until Going Rogue/Issue 18 was released. But that happened over two years before CoH was finally shutdown so that was plenty of time to see that everything worked out alright mixed like that. ;)

Well yes, but again, we had TONS of archetypes at that point. Any concern I have is legit just talking about release. =)

But its not really a deep rooted concern because the devs here have shown forethought constantly so I have faith in them.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

...Given that there's no direct/pure Ranged DPS class available at launch, anyone trying to emulate a Blaster could feel the sting of this.

??? There are 5 ranged DPS sets to choose from at launch; Force Blast, Lethality, Vampiric Blast, Atrophic Blast, and Psychic Blast.

Hes saying theres no Range/Assault AT like a Blaster analog in CoH. Range/Support is going to be the released AT.

EDIT: I dont share his fear or concern, just clarifying.

EDIT2: Range/Manipulation, my error

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In CoH there were:

In CoH there were:

Blasters = Ranged/Off-Mit Manipulation
Corrupters = Ranged/Support

It turns out "Off-Mit Manipulation" was usually a grab-bag of powers that included some offensive powers and pseudo-control powers. On the other hand "Support" tended to be more like heals and buffs of various kinds. Neither one of these had "Assault" secondaries (which tended to be strictly a mix of melee/ranged offensive powers).

Now to be clear CoT is launching with the Ranger/Partisan (which is the equivalent of the CoH Corruptor) but not launching with the Ranger/Hunter (which is the equivalent of the CoH Blaster). I suppose if you want to be real picky the Ranger/Partisan will be "less DPS and more support" oriented than the Ranger/Hunter might be. But it'll still have the same primary Ranged powerset (and likely have access to offensive tertiaries) to still be effective.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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When it comes to the ranger

When it comes to the ranger getting a support secondary it makes some rather simple concepts a little difficult. Pretty much any "I shoot (blank)" character becomes a little more difficult to do. Likely Strategy and Vampiric Emanation will see a lot of play when it comes to people making simple blaster types.

It's kinda the same problem I had with most controllers in CoH. That a lot of the secondary sets didn't gel super well with the primary. Most other classes got to be like, fire/fire but controllers didn't get anything like that till much later. And I know that part of the controller problem is due to aesthetics which shouldn't be much of a problem in CoT.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Coming out of hiding like my

Coming out of hiding like my pseudo-homonymous namesake...minus the existential, galactic threat, of course.

I really like the concept and I think it meshes very well with the great flexibility that's designed into the ATs and sets.
Among all the fantastic and thoughtful comments, I think these are most interesting:

Lothic wrote:

And actually this CoT system sounds like it's going to make Control powers more useful against big bosses too because even if you can't lock them down completely you'll still be able to disrupt their ability to smack you with their strongest powers. Seems like a win for us as players.

^ I agree. It seems like "weaker" builds may not have to rely on using tactics such as cornering, kiting, sniping, multiple temps, etc. to take down bosses.

Tannim222 wrote:

Control effects do not target the Willpower of another power, the affect true corresponding Control Paramter or “Stat”.

Check the update again for what these are and which effects apply to them.

Willpower is a rating which determines how easily or difficult it is for a power to be affected by a control effect.

If the control parameter is reduced below the Willpower threshold, the power is controlled.

Controls are improved by Augments which improve the Control effect’s value.

The duration is determined by a formula which checks the control effect value against the target’s Control parameters and the base duration. Ranks lower than a PC are easier to control and will be affected longer.

Improving your Cotnrol effect’s value with an Augment can then result in an improved duration as a result of the formula check but does not directly improve the base duration of the effect.

^I have a lot of catching up to do. Good summary here. Thanks!

Tannim222 wrote:

Example: 2; the charmed Stalwart is now hostile to you, you are taunted and hit the Stalwart with a charm, the affected Stalwart’s Powers will only affect those targets that are hostile to you. The other charmed powers from the enemy will continue to affect targets hostile to the enemy.

^Heehee...fun times!

Tannim222 wrote:

There are no Refinements that affect Willpower of Powers.

This is not to say that in the future there won’t be Sets with certain useful bonuses.

Hacing controls does not automatically necessitate able to mitigate controls better than others. Just like doing damage does not necessarily necessitate mitigating damage better than others.

If you want your Operators to have Protections from being controlled, take a Protection Tertiary.

Don’t roger the launch Operators have Support Secondaries which also come with ways to mitigate against Types and: / or will come with protections to Control effects.

The main way to mitigate against controls is not supposed to be about improving the Willpower rating, it is meant to be found in Defense Vs Controls or Resistwnce vs Types.

^Another good summary.

Lothic wrote:

Back with CoH's "binary" based system you usually had to manage to completely overwhelm a PC in PvP to affect them with ANY kind of control effect. Now under CoT you'll be able to at least "partially control" PCs even if you haven't (or more critically can't) control them 100%.

Again people have to remember that technically PCs are like the equivalent of arch-villains (using the old style CoH enemy ranking terminology) so naturally they should be far harder to control than your average minion NPC. I've never understood why people thought perma-holding PCs in PvP was ever supposed to be easy and/or routine.

^If, in reality, CoT lands anywhere close to this, I might actually be interested in PvP. I was never interest in CoX PvP.

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Catherine America wrote:
Catherine America wrote:

Coming out of hiding like my pseudo-homonymous namesake...minus the existential, galactic threat, of course.

Quick digression here, but I'm seriously in awe of how awesome your forum handle and avatar are for you.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Catherine America wrote:

Coming out of hiding like my pseudo-homonymous namesake...minus the existential, galactic threat, of course.

Quick digression here, but I'm seriously in awe of how awesome your forum handle and avatar are for you.

I’m a big Captain America fan and apparently a bit of a Catherine America fan too.

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I'm a big fan of knockback

I'm a big fan of knockback (less so with knockup). It's just so fun to send baddies flying!!

But I don't really understand the system here. So the knockback is scaled with the damage?

So if the damage is minimal, will they be knocked down, or simply unaffected?


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm a big fan of knockback (less so with knockup). It's just so fun to send baddies flying!!

But I don't really understand the system here. So the knockback is scaled with the damage?

So if the damage is minimal, will they be knocked down, or simply unaffected?

Knock effects have their own value which determines the strength of the knock. If the value is reduced by defense vs control effects or resistance to the knock damage type, then the result if he knock is reduced. Every knock effect has a threshold determined by a formula based off the knock value. If the knock value is reduced beyond that threshold, the knock has no effect.

For example if a Knockback has an 8 meter displacement and it is reduced to where it would be less than a meter (again example only), the knockback has no effect.


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Brand X
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Is there different values for

Is there different values for knock up? :) So the higher they'll go!

Different resistances and defenses between the knock up/back/down?

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My favorite 'Defender' was an

My favorite 'Defender' was an 'Offender', whose purpose was to tip the balance in favor of herself and her comrades. She used her 'Support' powers to destroy the enemy. Then there's the one who Might have been a 'Corruptor', except 'Corruptors' didn't have access to Force-fields. She and her 'twin sister' played FIERCE, bubbling each other and Energy Blasting the villains through the walls!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

...Given that there's no direct/pure Ranged DPS class available at launch, anyone trying to emulate a Blaster could feel the sting of this.

??? There are 5 ranged DPS sets to choose from at launch; Force Blast, Lethality, Vampiric Blast, Atrophic Blast, and Psychic Blast.

Hes saying theres no Range/Assault AT like a Blaster analog in CoH. Range/Support is going to be the released AT.

EDIT: I dont share his fear or concern, just clarifying.

EDIT2: Range/Manipulation, my error

Yes, I was refering to a strictly DPS class or archetype, not powerset/powerset type.

I'm actually not concerned, as I've always chosen the support ATs over pure dps whenever possible in games. I was simply acknowledging that I understood that some people might see cause for concern, particularly given many other people's views/treatment of support capable characters who don't focus on their support abilities. Look at some of the treatment "Offenders" or even Trick Arrow(non healing/buffing) Defenders got in CoH*, then consider that at launch there's literally no option to build a Ranged DPS character that doesn't include a support set.

As I said, I always choose Support over pure DPS, so this ultimately doesn't affect me in the slightest.

*Not that it was widespread, certainly not as much as many other games due to CoH's flexibility, but it did happen from time to time. Typically by people more entrenched in the traditional MMO trinity.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Is there different values for knock up? :) So the higher they'll go!

Different resistances and defenses between the knock up/back/down?

If you have a power with Knock Up, it will have a base value that determines how high the knock is on the target.

If you choose to improve the Knock with an Augment, it will result in a higher knock effect.

Protections to Knocks would be Defense vs Controls by style. Melee Defense vs Controls will proetect against Melee based controls.

Resistance reduces all effects by the type.
If you have Physicsl Resistance and the Knock is typesd Physical, the Knock will be reduced.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
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