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If I had a genie and 3 wishes, my third wish would be for MWM to have a team the size of Blizzard just for CoT.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
As a genie,I would say “As you wish...”
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/BlizzardDonnieGill.jpg/250px-BlizzardDonnieGill.jpg[/img]
The entire MWM is as ripped as Iron Man’s nemesis Blizzard.
They have to spend time and money to buy new clothes, causing a small delay in production.
I guess it's a good thing my first wish would be for $$$.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
Amateurs... whenever you get "wishes" the first wish you [b][i]always[/i][/b] wish for is more wishes... ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ixnay on the wishing for more wishes, three, that’s it, no exchanges or refunds.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Whatever... but you should always at least -try- to get more wishes before you worry about anything else. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Or you could wish to make yourself a free genie...then you get unlimited wishes, right?
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
PHENOMINAL COSMIC POWER..... ittybittylivingspace
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
That might work... apparently genies can't free themselves but I don't see why their wishes can't make [i]someone else[/i] a free genie. ;)
[img=300x300]https://cdn4.famefocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/i-dream-of-jeannie-1401808171-1000x600.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I don’t know I was under the impression a genie had to be freed by their master but none were created free. And you can guess how often that happens...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Don't wish for more wishes, wish for more genies.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Sure a "natural-born" genie (for lack of a better term) might have to start with a master. But would a random wish be able to transform an average human into a "masterless genie"? You're not "creating" the human, just transforming them.
This might be the basis for an interesting CoT character. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
An interesting query?
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
That project Gorgon game making it to Steam and getting positive reviews is interesting. I have to wonder if we will see CoT or SoH on Steam in the near future.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
the obvious wish would be to make yourself a powerful wizard then you wouldn't need a genie. Just don't get greedy!
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[color=#FF0000]Graphic Designer[/color]
I get the impression CoT seems to be playing cautiously and biding their time until they have a fairly impressive project before putting it on display. Not a bad move if you can afford to do it since you only get one first impression and people rarely come back for a second look if they aren't impressed.
I do really hope CoT gets to steam when they are ready though.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/145376#comment-145376]Yes, this has been made clear[/url]. And I believe the closer we get to launch the more professional MWM needs to make their image.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Welcome to the forums, and by that I mean:
[img]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/400x/57691395/welcome-to-the-thunderdome.jpg[/img]
Thanks Cobalt!
My computer has a recycle bin, does the Internet? Do you empty it?
I'm more partial to mops and brooms, they make for better catchphrases and double as a way to whomp on bad guys in a pinch.
It lends a little more flavor when you strike a pose after defeating evildoers and declare that you're cleaning up the town. Or that you're taking out the trash, making a clean sweep of the streets, cleaning their clocks....
Moxie, sir.
[img]https://www.drinkmoxie.com/img/timeline/full/20_01.jpg[/img]
You've got it.
Would you or anyone else care to clarify why such a chart like this would be counterproductive? It basically implies that you are incapable of setting goals and meeting those goals. Not really a good perception to be putting out there. Even if you fail to meet the goals, at least people would know what your goals are, and where things stand in the development process. The unfocused trickle of information makes people skeptical, and for good reason. Even if it's not a flashy graphic like this, a trello (which I would hope you are using, or something like it anyway), would be useful to let the community know where things stand, and how they're progressing. It really shouldn't be an extra investment of time to make something public which you already have in use.
I don't think this would be counterproductive at all, to the contrary, it would be very productive to reassure the community that you are actually making good progress and using the funds that you raised in an efficient manner, and helpful in raising funds to help get the project finished. Right now, it's anyone's guess as to where you actually are in the development process, and how much more you have left before it is ready for public testing. If you have a kickstarter tomorrow, it's going to be hard to get people to trust you will actually finish the game any time soon, given your track records and lack of information. Knowledge is power, and your reluctance to share what you know about where you are in development is very disconcerting to me.
It is counter productive for us. While we have a group of dedicated volunteers - we are all just that - volunteers.
It has happened, and is bound to again, where someone is giving a project and that someone drops off the face of the planet. Leaving work incomplete. And since they work remotely, hey may not have uploaded any work to your repo. Leaving it up to someone else to pick up the slack.
Most likely that someone else was also already working on something. And that something has to be paused, or both worked on and / off for a long while. Causing production to slow.
Also, many of us have other jobs, work from home during our family time (for those of us that have families). Which all god to say is that we put in part time work in what is a full time job.
Now anyone who has ever worked in the gaming industry will tell you -
Having s schedule is good, but never expect to keep
It - until you are forced to. When production hinges on multiple people from multiple departments and one small change can lead to a shift in one person’s time line - it has a cascade effect on others’ time lines, effecting the time line of all production.
Eventually, the marketing and sales deptaents settle in a hard date. And all those little set backs catch up with you - resulting in the inevitable “crunch time”. Where people can often times work 80-120 hours a week in order to get the project completed and ready to ship.
This is also why lately many games have released with many large bugs that are meant to be patched or later.
Ones because they can be parched (unlike days of old) and also because there is no leeeay once that hard date is set.
So how theh do you set a hard date with a team of unpaid part-time working volunteers who have no calaciry to handle “crunch time”?
The answer is you don’t. You plan an extended time line with rough range of dates to hit milestones in production.
If we were to release a chart it would be so nebulous that to the outside - many would think we were crazy and not fully grasp the nature of our work force and how we operate.
Only those few who come to the forums and new us would understand. To everyone else who doesn’t understand - would lead to a lot of negativity. And that is detrimental to us.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Not all management needs that degree of structure. Many might find a chart like this an added stressor that interferes with their workflow. This is especially true for more independent pesonalities who favor autonomy and personal responsibility over an imposed structure.
I have worked for companies that didn't use these types of charts and didn't even have "Staff meetings"... for years without issue!! And that was a job where some of the projects involved would change day to day while others never shifted.
Smaller teams (5-30) may not need this sort of approach as internal communication and coordination can be more fluid and more efficient. I appreciate the argument that the "outside" may benefit from a chart but it may be difficult to make a meaningful document describing that process...
Often, certain personalities need charts as this provides them with a sense of direction and tangible results. This is a fine approach for those individuals. However, when they are in a leadership position, they often fail to see that it may not be helpful for ar least 1/2 of their staff. (I hate to bring in Dunning-Kruger but ...) When this happens the company will self-select for individuals who are more "charty" types, perpetuating and erroneously validating the process as a universal.
So while I would like a small less detailed chart myself, I respect the process to workflow MWM has taken. It appears to be thoughtful, supportive and respectful if it's members distinctive creative styles and work ethics.
You could see this as the last PAX conference. Each team had a distinctive management approach. I find MWM's to be the one that was most respectful and likely to be the one that will have the integrity to follow through in their promises of quality over drive/pressure for immediate gains.
Anyway, that is my take on charts... :-)
Missing schedule dates is completely understandable, especially with a volunteer crew. However, refusing to actually tell people what is done and what is not, and what you hope to have done at some time in the future, is very hard to understand for me. Unless there is and embarrassingly little amount actually done, in which case, I guess it makes sense. Therein lies the rub. If you refuse to be transparent, people are left to make assumptions, and some of those assumptions can be quite negative.
Again, if you want to raise funds in the future, you need to let people know where things stand, and show that you've actually made progress all these years. The character creator demo is a great indication of that, as well as some of the other updates you've made, but in terms of the rest of the game, no one knows where things stand, whether you have a full city actually built yet, whether you have one or more powersets finished, etc. Just general broad strokes of what is in the works would be tremendously helpful to building more support and trust, and assuaging the lingering doubts that people have about the project, even if there is no specific timeline attached to it.
This is just my view and I’m sure others will disagree.
One of the worst things a person can do is encourage false hope. I don’t mean lying, I mean suggesting something will be one way when they can not control that outcome absolutely. To give a timeline with hard dates is fine. It encourages us to hope that everything will go along a planned course. It also gives us the ability to gage, develop opinions, and criticize every little detail that we perceive as a failure or debilitation of meeting the “timeline” goals.
I have done volunteer work and I’ve been there when literally two of fifteensupposed volunteers managed to show up. It’s not easy to plan for this. And what is more all of those volunteers had good reasons for not making it to the event. There were no excuses or laziness at hand, each had valid reasons. It was simply horrible timing for the event. Had the people the work was being done for not known it was suppose to happen the press for it wouldn’t have been nearly so horrid. But they did know and the group took a great deal of heat both locally and nationally as a result.
In a situation where everything is fully supported and tangible I agree a timeline is not only a good idea but a wise tool to employ. However, when dealing with a situation where the entire support staff is unpaid and voluntary there is no way to know that even one goal is reasonably achievable in a given timeframe.
In so many words, life happens and emergencies are not planned events that can be simply worked around and every single person has those two things occurring at least occasionally. (Even the most reclusive sorts occasionally do get surprised by life events.)
So does one put up a timeline full of hopeful dates and good intentions under the guise that a staff of unpaid volunteers will manage to operate unhindered by “life” and be on time with every part they support or does one play it close to the vest and not show cards without enough certainty that they have a winning hand?
Don’t get me wrong I would love to find out the game is further along than they have shared with us. However since the alternative to knowing is what I’m already doing which is waiting (patiently?) I don’t see the problem with being in the dark as opposed to getting a list of timeline goals that are all missed simply because they threw out a “timeline” they they couldn’t possibly know they could achieve. Thus providing yet another tool for criticisms from “supporters and well wishers.” All of this when they are already working against tremendous odds (highly decentralized unpaid volunteer staff) to achieve their goal.
I really don’t think the MWM group as a whole has any intention of failing or not giving their best but they aren’t organized in a fashion that permits a wise choice to share their timeline. I’m sure they do have one but I wouldn’t expect to see it until they were certain they could commit and hit the dates given. Especially since so many onlookers in the gaming community are so very skeptical and critical of every little detail. Just look at these forums and see how critical the supporters are from time to time... let alone the full community.
Like it or not it is wiser to keep that timeline to themselves and keep up the work they are doing for the time being...
All that said I still find myself Jonesinn for the next big update... but in a healthy way!;-)
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Normally the developers wouldn't, and maybe shouldn't care, what assumptions people make. But I agree with your sentiment since CoT is a unique game in that it is KS funded and staffed by volunteers. I don't think they can afford to be cavalier with people's assumptions since they are planning a 2nd Chance fundraiser and the success of the game will largely be CoH player base and word of mouth. We don't know where all the KS money went all these years later but I doubt they'll be budgeting a whole lot for marketing when they could use that money on the already under-funded game.
I like to think that I have as much faith in the dev team as possible given the relatively little amount of the actual game we've seen. I can't imagine they would open the 2nd Chance fundraiser without having a working chargen, and videos proving that, along with some actuall gameplay showing completed effects, combat, the actual city and world, etc etc etc. At least, that's what I need to see to donate money. I'm not putting a time-frame on that, just my personal requirements whenever that happens.
Everything LOOKS promising, but we've actually only seen very, very little. And that's ok as long as they aren't stringing us along.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
QFT. Lol, jk.
Seriously though, I'm not saying the need a timeline like SoH has, but just a basic list of things they have completed, and another list of things they hope to complete at sometime in the future, would be stupendous, and again, something I hope they already have. Trello is a great medium for this, as can be seen in other games, where they have basic categories of "done", "in progress", and "maybe someday". It's not difficult to make if they don't have it already (which if that's the case, that's alarming), and would be tremendously beneficial, both in terms of keeping track of the project for themselves, and for keeping the community informed. A simple thread, with admin only posts of the latest version of it is all it would take to make this idea a reality.
Still, charts are fun :P
[url=https://ibb.co/myABwJ][img]https://preview.ibb.co/nck0qd/Co_Troadmap2.png[/img][/url]
I think it's more of an issue that due to their uneven development speed and high potential for completely unannounced loss of devs that having a public display of what is "in progress" and such can be more detrimental than beneficial since it can leave a feeling in many of us of "why isn't that done by now" when features aren't done in a time frame that we would think is the proper one.
My experience purely on the consumer side of this leans towards that putting up these kinds of "lists" actually necessitates more active communication from the devs to makes sure that what we read on those lists have all relevant information. There's also the fact that not everything they track internally would be a good idea to put on such a public list.
A list of what’s done, what’s in progress, what won’t be done until post-release, and what is probably never being added or might never be added, that’d be pretty neat, even if there are zero dates added.
If they already have that info at hand for their internal processes and can reproduce that here, I think I’d like that. But if that’s something they don’t have already, because they are working as independent groups focused on different modules to be integrated later, and compiling that info requires taking resources away from development then I’d rather they focus on getting Chargen and the game itself done.
Ohh I'm sure they have such I just think they are much more fine grained than what would be "suitable" for us, possibly going down to individual items/powers rather than "groupings".
I'm sure there are a few "devs" (well at least one) that doesn't do any actual work on the game itself but rather all the things around it, like coordinating and/or prioritizing all the different work being done.
This comes back to something I've said before: Every player thinks they want to [url=https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/07/08/laws-sausages/#more-905]see how the sausage is made[/url] as far as all the details related to how this game is being designed and scheduled. But in reality the more "details" we learn at any given moment about those things the more likely those things are going to change and/or be modified six months or a year from now when (hopefully) public beta testing is underway.
Seeing big fancy charts is fine and dandy. Being reasonably sure the data [b]on[/b] those charts is not going to significantly change over time is something else. Have patience my friends. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Speaking of goals, still waiting for that VO Steam release that was slated for a year or two ago. Apparently, VO was due on Steam. Players would also be able to customize their transformations for that said power-set, and pets for the commander power-set. They discussed a power-set were players could transform to something else, and customize it. Sounds too good to be true!!! (Sarcasm).
Apparently they released in 2017, guess I missed it.
https://www.f2p.com/anticipated-free-play-mmo-games-2017/
Depends on your goals, because they could definitely lead players in the wrong direction. May be better to say nothing at all. VO has nothing that resembles a transformation power in their current plans or alpha. They actually stopped discussing customization of pets and transformations altogether. If they only would have said nothing?
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
So it turns out VO is sort of still going?
They promise to livestream a pet power at the end of November. Not really interested in the power to be completely truthful, I just want to see if they will follow through with a promise, any promise. They have never been on schedule. Not only that, I don't recall VO has ever fulfilling a previously announced content promise. Curious to see if they follow through.
With me, VO is about trust. They announced and promised so much in the past. At this point, the material is irrelevant, but their trust is the focal point for me. I don't really care what they are trying to sell their 5 or 8 fans, just if they deliver. I have heard horror stories from supporters. I feel like this may be their final chance to make an impression. That is, if anyone even cares at this point.
What are your thoughts on this project nearly 4 years after this thread was created?
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I had high hopes for VO a year ago, the alpha was getting regular updates, they had one powerset for minions already, it was a good start. Then they stopped updating, and stopped talking. Really seems like they wasted the time advantage they had.
Now I'm investing all my enthusiasm in SEGS.
I do not like to think I'd rather had spend my donation/preorder on CoT instead of VO but... well I would really not mind if that would be the case now. *sigh* Thankfully I am not into horse race gambling.
They did made a recent update (https://valiance.shogn.net/10-news/36-progress-and-the-path-ahead); but it had a bit of a back to square one feeling to it.
Not my proudest half hour
[img]https://i.imgur.com/NnwviQq.jpg[/img]
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
THAT BULGE THOUGH
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I assume that’s his posterior and he’s awkwardly twisting around backwards.
(I’m trying to cover for you desviper.)
DesViper's gonna make me abuse my brand new forum powers.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
I can shop out the twisted waist if need be, guys :p
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
????????
You might do that, or... Steal the meme and then delet it... Wait I guess you meant that, ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
[font=courier][color=#FF0000]Tech[/color][/font]
45 52 52 4F 52 3A 20 34 30 34 0D 0A 48 65 72 6F 20 6E 6F 74 20 66 6F 75 6E 64 21
And amazingly enough I had nothing to do with this... ;)
P.S. Ironically with my absolutely horrible artistic skills I probably would have ended up with a character looking like that whether I wanted him to be "bulged up" or not. That's why I don't attempt to make a living by drawing - you've got to know your limits in life. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Pshhhhh, I used a template :p
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Yeah, in some corners of the internet, the template is common.
If only Valiance Online had a perky, unpaid spokeskitty to rally morale over there.
Remember, kiddies: "City of Tabbies … now with more Kittens!"
See what I mean?!
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
valium online doesnt seem to be advancing, but I could be wrong.
Valiance Online are struggling with funding and staffing right now but they are good people. If you have the extra funds I'd encourage people to donate.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
The meme is heavily ironic: I really don't mean them harm, despite some legit criticism in there.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Good luck to VO!
BTW, do *they* have hamburpers?! City of Tabbies does!
*slinks back into the shadows and enjoys a large serving platter stacked high with Septuple Bacon Cheezburpers!*
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
Full disclosure: I'm a supporter of both games.
But I think the current states of Valiance and CoT can largely be attributed to their planning, organization, and strategy.
For all the grief MWM gets on these forums from time to time (not all the time, and certainly not from everyone), they've adopted a development approach that seems to be working, and making the most of the dollars they have.
And by sticking to their guns, and not campaigning for more funding (at least until they have something more substantial to show for it) they've also enhanced their credibility. All those aspects of their business model are inter-related, and mutually supporting.
Valiance got a lot of props for having a playable pre-alpha several years ago, but in terms of actual game play, they've not made much visible progress since. Their game world has gotten nicer, and there have been some steps forward in character creation, etc. But I think it's fair to say that they've stalled.
Working with a volunteer team has its hazards and drawbacks, and may eventually lead to even more headaches for MWM down the road. But they continue to show impressive progress, even if it's not all come together quite yet.
At this point, my faith and expectations are all with MWM and CoT, largely because I still believe in their development plan and business model.
Well said, Geveo!
Two thumbs … um … dew claws … up!
[center][color=purple][size=16][b][I][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78N2SP6JFaI]Just a cat from another star![/url][/I][/b][/size][/color][/center]
+1
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
All I know is that every time I still see MWM folks saying nice things about the other "successor projects" all I can think of is that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunga_Din]famous poem by Rudyard Kipling[/url]...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If anyone cares, there was a recent update to Valiance Online. Don't see much progress overall, other than some updates to the world. Character creator and combat is still very lacking. We'll see what future updates bring, but I was hoping for more after the long period of silence. At least the beta roadmap sounds promising.
https://valiance.shogn.net/forum/bulletins-announcements/3275
I essentially gave up on Valiance Online and Ship of Heroes multiple years ago. *shrugs*
Yes I know they are/were "related spiritual CoH successors" and I do commend MWM's efforts to try to play nice and accept them as "friendly partners" but I never seriously assumed that ALL of these disjoint development efforts would ever yield multiple playable games. Basically I came to the conclusion that MWM had the best chance to succeed and wrote off the others as doomed to fail. Even if Valiance Online or Ship of Heroes do eventually launch I'm still currently of the opinion that CoT is the "last, best hope" to be the most worthwhile out of all the "post-CoH" possibilities.
TBH I wish all the various peoples working on the separate successor projects had managed to get together and worked on ONE SINGLE project. That ONE SINGLE game might actually exist right now if they had all worked together instead of dividing their limited resources in semi-tangential directions. Oh well...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I wishes were fishes...
Without a budget and an executive to wield it, there was no incentive for people to compromise their creative differences. In fact, I'm surprised it settled on only the four projects (CoT, Valiance, H&V, SoH). I suppose it really settled upon the most dominant personalities/visions. I too am dismayed at the lost potential and efficiency of all these talented people not collaborating on a single great project. But here we are.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Indeed, I've had this sentiment for a long time. The more people work together, the further along we'd be. Then again, perhaps these different creative visions would have clashed, and we'd be in a very different place today. Perhaps the fact that we had several different projects, means that at least one of them will succeed and produce something that lives up to being a true successor, whereas if it was just one project, it may have failed or been to diluted and convoluted in how it turned out.
I will say that I think the slow burn creative approach that MWM has taken does appear to be paying off, and I think that the progress they've shown has been pretty impressive. It still seems like there's a lot to do though to make the game actually functional, and it's a long ways off. From what I've seen though, I do think it will be worth the wait, but man has it been a wait already.
Yeah I basically didn't even mention H&V in this context since as far as I can tell that one sputtered out far, far earlier than the rest. Just calling it as I see it...
Regardless I'm not completely naive about the overall situation. I realize that these various projects sprung up organically and there was certainly no "requirement" for every person who ever wanted to help create a "post-CoH" game was meant to (or even could) work together. My sentiment here was more of a "in a perfect world this could have happened" hypothetical.
All things considered (and with all due respect) we currently have 4+ unplayable pseudo-games after 8+ years of collective effort. I was simply day-dreaming that we might have had an actual playable game by now if they had all worked on one grand project instead of 4 or more incompatible ones.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Truly a shared sentiment.
But I think @Kid Rad has a point. That is, the existence of more than one effort probably resulted in a competitive drive; and I think a case could be made if there had been only one, it might have failed by now due to loss of interest or a falling out among the competitive differences. Perhaps CoT would not even exist today if it had not been for this competition and the distillation of the specific human resources into those who actually shared the common vision. This common vision probably resulted in a more dedicated workforce. Imagine how a volunteer effort would have gone in a single, but more compromised diluted creative vision. A compromised creative vision that appealed equally to all the volunteers but that, by definition, also disappointed each volunteer equally.
To summarize, I think a case can be made that the fracturing of the creative efforts into different visions allowed the volunteers to pick a project that more completely realized their own creative visions. This kept their interest and drive and motivation and allowed the public to also have a say in which creative vision appealed to the greatest number.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Competition is fine. But if you had asked most of the MWM Devs over the years they've been maintaining this semi-perplexing "Kumbaya" attitude towards the other successor projects as if they were all "one big happy family" rather than "future competition" for the playerbase. I've honestly found it strangely annoying and relatively disingenuous all things considered. Sure there's no reason for anyone to be uncivil with the other projects but these people are/were effectively "competitors" that didn't require MWM to be overly-friendly with them. It made me think MWM were either being patronizingly dishonest with us at best or frightfully unprepared to become an "actual" game company at worst.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I suppose 'patronizingly dishonest' is the more likely of the two. I think MWM didn't want people to get into flame wars on their behalf. Nobody wins flame wars and volunteers would lose motivation if they were constantly being told their products were crap and unwanted by a polarized fanbase.
And that was years ago.
Can you imagine in today's toxic social media oriented culture how polarized the various fan-bases would be and how vicious people would get?
The kumbaya was assuredly a practical truce.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Eh... perhaps. Still the general "we're all friends here" policy (if you can call it that) has always "rubbed" me the wrong way and to be completely honest was probably the root of the "critical doubt" that I've harbored against certain individual MWM Devs for a long while now. I still have reasonable faith in MWM as a whole, but I may have to accept that I'm apparently far more cynical about such things than the average MWM volunteer seems to be. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Compare and contrast the following sentiments:
We're [u][i]Heroes[/i][/u] ... it's what we do.
We're [u][i]Villains[/i][/u] ... guess what we do.
Keeping the community friendly is more in keeping with the City of Heroes styled commitment to being good people, rather than the polarization, rivalry and territorial "border guarding" that is simply the natural outcome of that results from "picking a side" and going tribal about it so as to promote an US vs THEM mentality.
Sure it's idealistic ... but it's also a set of ideals that we would want Heroes to live up to.
Nobody expects [b]game companies[/b] to be Heroes these days, although some individuals within game companies can be pretty darn heroic (looking at you, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naoki_Yoshida]Yoshi-P[/url]!) which then has a sort of halo effect on the company itself.
I get it that "business is business" and all that, but quite honestly I'm rather pleased that MWM has been able to delay the inevitable turn to competition for as long and as well as they have.
For once you start down the Dark Path™ forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Again I'm not saying we MUST rush to be tribal about this, even if that might be inevitable in the long run.
I know I'm not really explaining my position on this very well but basically on the spectrum of all possible reactions MWM could have related to the other successor projects it just always seemed like MWM were handling things in an overly "idealistically naive" way that frankly didn't inspire total confidence in their potential as an actual game company. Keeping to the "more the merrier" mindset is fine as long as you don't have to worry about "real world things" like dividing your potential customer base multiple ways.
I get the advantages of trying to keep things "nice" between the projects as long as possible... MWM just seemed at times to be "too nice" about it for their own good to be fully credible to me. Sorry, that's just how I feel about it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
/em shrug
Better than the alternative, as I detailed ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'm so idealistically naive!
Be Well!
Fireheart
This is the best way to look at it.
I'll tell you what I know, and what's basically public knowledge; A number of the different projects initially [i]did[/i] start out as one big one. Then they finally decided to go their separate ways, due to disagreements. Nobody's gone into much detail, even internally. That's very telling.
A volunteer effort filled with miserable volunteers is a very bad thing. And yes, if you had added the way people behave online today to that, I think many volunteers would have (rightly) walked away.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
I don't know all the details but I was actually aware that there were some people initially trying to work together and that there were early "disagreements" that caused them to break away from each other. I get that there might have been some friendships involved and that always makes things difficult.
Regardless of all that the public policy of "kumbaya among the projects" always seemed way too artificial and unnatural. The notion that the entire potential playerbase of ALL of these successor projects would end up wanting to play ALL of these games EQUALLY is at best a laughable pipe dream.
One more time I'm not suggesting we must automatically encourage tribalism here. I'm simply of the opinion that the "overtly patronizing hyperfriendilness" is equally silly and unnecessary.
It's like the folks at MWM were/are walking on imaginary egg shells that don't actually exist and it makes them look "out of touch" as a potential game company. Just treat the other projects civilly as competitors and (perhaps) don't bother to mention them at all unless absolutely necessary. The strange "desire" to pretend everyone's still somehow "linked" together by a common cause when they clearly decided to break off and do their own thing is... disconcerting at the very least.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Don’t forget some of our team know or have had a lot of communication with the VO team. Just as well, many of us, as well as other devs on the other projects all played the same game - sometimes even together.
These online relationships were built on something positive. We don’t view ourselves as “walking on imaginary eggshells”.
You know that devs in the gaming industry from different studios often speak very highly of other devs in other companies. Many attend the same game / comic conventions, are on panels together, and there are many examples of devs from different studios that at one time worked together in some capacity in their past.
To view your potential future competition with derision in a culture that is generally amicable isn’t common and if you go by how the industry of professionals treat each other, well if we weren’t supportive of their efforts, we’d appear unprofessional by that standard.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Are you not adult enough to treat the folks who are working on the other projects with professional/personal courtesy without pretending that all the projects are somehow still working to become "one big happy family"?
I get where you're coming from Tannim in trying to keep things "nice" in the community. I'll say it for roughly the SIXTH or SEVENTH time that I'm not suggesting that MWM encourage tribalism amongst the projects. I'm simply pointing out that it's very possible to be TOO NICE to your future competitors as well. It's going to look pretty silly that you treated the likes of H&V as a "spiritual equal" once you become a successful company and the younglings don't even remember who Golden Girl was.
No one's telling you that you must be "evil" to the other projects. But you don't really have to bend-over-backwards to be artificially "nice" to them either... just saying. They made their choices - let them live or die by them.
P.S. If you really do care that much about the people currently working the other projects then by all means remain cordial with them (at least privately). Once their projects fail I'm sure they'll be prime candidates for you to hire to work for MWM. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
And where are the examples of us “bending over backward to be artificially nice?”.
How do you identify what is artificial about us being kind and not genuine about who we are and how we behave?
Furthermore, you should note when and what we AREN’t talking about other projects which can be as telling by us saying something.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
To be absolutely fair the "kumbaya talky-talky" you guys USED to be on about with the other projects has died down somewhat in recent years. For what it's worth MWM's general shift towards "neutral lack of acknowledgement" has made me feel better about MWM prospects as an actual game company as a whole.
My main point here is that you have (or arguably [b][i]had[/i][/b]) a tendency to blow everyone else's horn more than your own which frankly worried me.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Of the four companies/projects described:
2 emerged from an internal split. Internally one group didn't even know that there was a split in the first place! It's one of those "We don't go there" topics now.
2 almost joined together. I forget why it didn't happen even though I think I was on the company board at the time (it might have just been a lack of money). I was about eight years ago and records have become lost and memories hazy. But both parties remained friendly afterwards
And one only appeared a number of years after all the others were deep into development and made everyone go "Who are you? Good luck!". We've since collaborated with each other during at least one convention to do a public presentation.
We've generally just proceeded to treat one another with courtesy and professionalism and the idea each group's project will succeed or fail on it's own merits. We've not, generally, been jerks to one another because we had no cause to be that way. As a consequence we didn't waste any time or energy worrying about any competition. We've had enough problems of our own to deal with.
So, in short, we've just been polite, but not "Kumbaya" (other than just displays of basic decency).
I'm not mentioning names or organizations, of course, as there is no merit in it. Does this quick summary make things clear?
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
You've provided a few extra details that were nice to know (or were kind of semi-forgotten) but they don't really change my overall take on things. I already acknowledged several posts ago that I might simply be far more cynical than most of the people responding to me about this particular issue. My perception (right or wrong) is that there have been times when various MWM Rednames have appeared to be "needlessly ingratiating" to the other projects for no apparent reason or benefit. It's not really your job to change my opinions about these things.
Ultimately the way I see it is as I summarized earlier: The various projects have made their respective beds and now they have to lie in them. There's no point in going out of your way to encourage/support the other projects in any way. You don't have to proverbially pat them on the back - it's perfectly "professional" to effectively ignore them completely.
P.S. As to your point about not wasting "any time or energy worrying about any competition" goes get back to me on that if any of the other successor projects become "first out of the gate" with an official game launch before MWM.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yep. We were pretty much on the same wavelength on this one. This is a bit of a nostalgia trip for me more than anything. Did make me (and some others) go "What's happening to the other guys? :-/"
Honestly I think we are further along than about everyone else. I'm walking around our city now (and maybe flying) and soon will a lot more other people. Combat is substantially along.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
!!!!
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I remember a video back around 2015/2016 of a few devs running and flying around some large square map with a central building, on top was an aquarium with fish, if I remember right.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I was one of those devs. I think I have that thing still around somewhere on my computer. We were testing a few things. Some of the stuff there might come back; no promises though.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
I think the only thing to do now, is a raid in force. You guys go through the front as a distraction, I'll go in the back and steal their beer and pretzels. I promise to share. What happened last time wont happen again, I promise. trust me
Um, the Janitor might empty the bin, but the internet has so much self-propagating garbage in it, that an Army of Darkness could never keep it clean.
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