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Project_Hero
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Realistically, CoT is the one for me for 2 reasons.

1. Process of elimination. Valiance and SoH both are doing a futuristic setting, with Valiance being more grounded in the 2099 genre which I could go on and on about how much I dislike it and SoH being HEROES. IN. SPAAAAAAAAAAACE which again, on and on about how much I dislike it. Give me Silver Age or at least Modern Age that acts like Silver Age any day.

Silver age? Like the Legion of Superheroes? A group of space faring Superheroes in the future?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Realistically, CoT is the one for me for 2 reasons.

1. Process of elimination. Valiance and SoH both are doing a futuristic setting, with Valiance being more grounded in the 2099 genre which I could go on and on about how much I dislike it and SoH being HEROES. IN. SPAAAAAAAAAAACE which again, on and on about how much I dislike it. Give me Silver Age or at least Modern Age that acts like Silver Age any day.

Silver age? Like the Legion of Superheroes? A group of space faring Superheroes in the future?

I meant like the more "normal" setting that Silver Age is known for alongside the overall tone of characters. An idea would be the various 90s animated series from Marvel and DC and the MCU (aside from Guardians which is less Superhero more Space Opera).

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I'd prefer a less Silver age

I'd prefer a less Silver age approach. Silver age has all the weird stuff. Like gangsters using alien plants to rob banks. Or Superman spawning new powers every other issue.

I'd prefer a more bronze age or modern age of comics. Things that emulate the current marvel movies or Superhero shows of the 2000's and up. There was some great cartoon shows there: Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, spectacular Spider-man, and the current Spider-man show (even ultimate Spider-man wasn't too bad once it got going), Avengers Earths mightiest Heroes, justice league action, Batman brave and the bold (though this was trying to emulate a more Silver age feel), the Green Lantern animated series (I liked it at least), young justice, Teen Titans, Static Shock.

The 90s shows aren't Silver age. They're modern age. Silver age would be the 1960s cartoons.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Lord Nightmare
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Bronze is also a great period

Bronze is also a great period but started introducing concepts that effectively muddied the genre and slowly made it worse. Tony Stark became a raging alcoholic, Batman became the overly brooding character we know him as now, and social commentary became almost a requirement for every run. But for all that you still had interesting dynamics. SHIELD being untrustworthy and underhanded at times is great, Joker trying to push Batman over the edge is great, Doom being well-intended but still utterly evil is great. You still knew who was good and who was evil.. until you start getting into the Iron Age then it just becomes a mostly unreadable mess.

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Project_Hero
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Social commentary has been

Social commentary has been part of Superheroes from the beginning. One of the first Superman stories has him stop someone who hit their wife.

The very act of super heroics is social commentary.

What do you mean by the Iron age of comics? Comics of which period? Most put anything released post 1980 as the modern age of comics. And you can't tell me that every comic released since 1980 is a "mostly unreadable mess."

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Social commentary has been part of Superheroes from the beginning.

That's why we have Captain America.

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For me personally, I would

For me personally, I would like to see the golden and silver ages represented somehow. After all, it's part of superhero history and a lot of people would appreciate that nostalgia in game. If it's too jarring to have all of these eras intermingled, then maybe there can be instanced zones where you travel back in time or something (just spitballing).

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If I recall correctly there

If I recall correctly there will still be echoes of other ages, like the retired silver-age themed Captain Orbit.

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It's clear to me that Doctor

It's clear to me that Doctor Tyche is from another era. He's got that old-time villainy. It's good enough for me!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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He's a dev and an in-game

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

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From what they have released,

From what they have released, there is going to be a lot of variety in the lore and a lot of latitude in gameplay. The majority will be able to find what floats their boat--from good, well-meaning underwear-on-the-outside heroes and mad, monologuing villains to emo/narcissistic deconstructionist anti-hero/villains "how it would be if Superpowers were real".

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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And I shall be there to

And I shall be there to comment on both in my oh so grandiloquent verbiage.

Because Lord Nightmare is Grandiloquent

.

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Losername wrote:
Losername wrote:

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

He's more than a Dev ^^ He's a co-founder of MWM and a character of CoT

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Yes, and be very careful,

Yes, and be very careful, because his Dial goes up to eleven!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Losername wrote:

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

He's more than a Dev ^^ He's a co-founder of MWM and a character of CoT

He looks so good !!
I want to meet him InGame and kick his ass lol.

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Losername wrote:

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

He's more than a Dev ^^ He's a co-founder of MWM and a character of CoT

Cool!

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Losername wrote:
Losername wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Losername wrote:

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

He's more than a Dev ^^ He's a co-founder of MWM and a character of CoT

Cool!

That's just the Jack Kirby version of Nemesis!

The plot hasn't ended folks, it just switched to a diferent dimension.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:
Losername wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Losername wrote:

He's a dev and an in-game character? Or am I just dense?

He's more than a Dev ^^ He's a co-founder of MWM and a character of CoT

Cool!

That's just the Jack Kirby version of Nemesis!

The plot hasn't ended folks, it just switched to a diferent dimension.

I believe you'll find that he's really the modern updated version of 1960s Spider-Man villain, Dr. Magnet-O

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Obey the beard!

Obey the beard!


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
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you can have more pictures

you can have more pictures here : http://titanscity.com/univers/les-vilains/dr-tyche/

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Obey the beard!

In that picture, where's the beard? Has he sent it on some sort of minion assignment?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Obey the beard!

What beard?? All I see is a commanding mustache.

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Where’s the beard? I wonder

Where’s the beard? I wonder if this has anything to do with it...


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
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Maybe The Beard has used its

Maybe The Beard has used its mind control powers to make us unable to see it!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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/em singing

/em singing

🎶 Transformbeards!
🎵 More than meets the eye!

🎶 Transformbeards!
♬ Helmets when disguised!


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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I would also say CoT is

I would also say CoT is number one. The rush for SoH to get out asap is silly. Reality is gonna bite that @$$ something hard. The 100 or so SoH supporters will support a half-built project, but the common mmo player has no loyalty towards CoX nor SoH, they just want to play the best game. I think CoT will be that game. I think SoH needs the money. Maybe a red flag.

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Everybody needs the money.

Everybody needs the money.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Everybody needs the money.

True, but only one of them plan on releasing a product with a variety of features.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Everybody needs the money.

True, but only one of them plan on releasing a product with a variety of features.

To be fair, I've watched all of SoH's videos and their work is great. It is definitely a limited scope compared to CoT, in more ways than one, but they are skilled at what they are showing off. Many of them are also CoX fans and past players and SoH's theme speaks to them. From what I have seen they won't have the aesthetic decoupling that CoT's has and likely won't have the depth in lore and history, but they are a dedicated team. It has been stated before, by a dev, that it isn't surprising the progress they've made since their team, as far as I know, are all full-time employees, or at least full-time volunteers.

I'm still waiting for CoT over any other game but they seem to have their stuff together.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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SoH is certainly making good

SoH is certainly making good progress and the devs look like they can be trusted. I just can't stand it's setting, it feels so limited. I know the ship will stop by numerous planets, but the main city will lack underground caverns, ocean side ports, traditional sewers while the planets we visit will feel like small disconnected areas. Valiance feels similarly limited in that it's setting is entirely based on tech with no magic. One of CoX's strengths was it managed to do it all in one coherent setting, and CoT looks like it's trying to pull off the same.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

SoH is certainly making good progress and the devs look like they can be trusted. I just can't stand it's setting, it feels so limited. I know the ship will stop by numerous planets, but the main city will lack underground caverns, ocean side ports, traditional sewers while the planets we visit will feel like small disconnected areas. Valiance feels similarly limited in that it's setting is entirely based on tech with no magic. One of CoX's strengths was it managed to do it all in one coherent setting, and CoT looks like it's trying to pull off the same.

Why can't the ship of ship of heroes have those things? I don't know much about it but there's not much stopping them from including all those things. If the ship is say built partially out of an asteroid it can have caverns. If it's big enough it could have a large expanse of water (more a lake than an ocean) and have ports. And there's nothing stopping it from having sewers.

And of course later they can have other parts of the ship be connected or constructed to give other new areas still connected to the main city ship.

Honestly the only limiting factor is the creator's imaginations.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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While it could change, the

While it could change, the design for the ship is already complete for the most part. There's no asteroid or rock sections. It's aligned vertically so if you were to dig down, you would reach some connecting maintenance tunnels, and further down the sky painted ceiling of the next section of city.

Maybe they'll pull it off better than I could ever expect, they are experienced devs. I know every area in any game is literally an enclosed space, but even CoX managed to feel large and open with the war walls, and I'm not sure I'll feel the same in the enclosed discs of a spaceship.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

While it could change, the design for the ship is already complete for the most part. There's no asteroid or rock sections. It's aligned vertically so if you were to dig down, you would reach some connecting maintenance tunnels, and further down the sky painted ceiling of the next section of city.

Maybe they'll pull it off better than I could ever expect, they are experienced devs. I know every area in any game is literally an enclosed space, but even CoX managed to feel large and open with the war walls, and I'm not sure I'll feel the same in the enclosed discs of a spaceship.

To be fair, each section of the ship is the same area as Atlas park so you won't feel like you are enclosed. It'll be blue skies and clouds, etc. So going from one section to another will feel the same as going from Atlas Park to the Hollows.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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jtpaull wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

To be fair, each section of the ship is the same area as Atlas park so you won't feel like you are enclosed. It'll be blue skies and clouds, etc. So going from one section to another will feel the same as going from Atlas Park to the Hollows.

That is my understanding as well.

From the server infrastructure point of view, this is 20+ year old technology. There will be no need to program all the fancy dynamic background loading associated with a large seamless world. For a small team effort, it is a smart business decision. Putting it all on a ship I think was just a better lore justification for segregating the areas than those ridiculous war walls were in CoX. And I bet that's where the initial concept of a spaceship came from.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

To be fair, each section of the ship is the same area as Atlas park so you won't feel like you are enclosed. It'll be blue skies and clouds, etc. So going from one section to another will feel the same as going from Atlas Park to the Hollows.

That is my understanding as well.

From the server infrastructure point of view, this is 20+ year old technology. There will be no need to program all the fancy dynamic background loading associated with a large seamless world. For a small team effort, it is a smart business decision. Putting it all on a ship I think was just a better lore justification for segregating the areas than those ridiculous war walls were in CoX. And I bet that's where the initial concept of a spaceship came from.

That makes sense. Helps to understand why they, being so much newer than CoT, have a similar release date; they have so much less open world to design and create. Almost everything will be instanced they've said. And, at launch, only the one ship section will be available. It'll be months, potentially up to a year (depending on revenue from subs), before they get another ship section/level released. Years before an actual planet visit. Those are things the President of SoH has said in some of their latest streams. Running around an Atlas sized world with only instances to explore doesn't seem thrilling to me.

Personally, I would rather have the open world to explore, hence my choice of CoT over SoH, but would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least try it for a month or two. And yes, obviously, there are a lot of other factors like aesthetic decoupling and the fact that MWM has had so much more time to develop rich lore and history, etc, to help make that choice.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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jtpaull wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

Personally, I would rather have the open world to explore, hence my choice of CoT over SoH, but would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least try it for a month or two. And yes, obviously, there are a lot of other factors like aesthetic decoupling and the fact that MWM has had so much more time to develop rich lore and history, etc, to help make that choice.

I agree with you on this point. I don't understand why SoH and VO took a futuristic approach. Currently, SoH has one alien race of enemies. For a space set game, you would expect to see a lot of different alien races. This puts more development work on the team, whereas you could have just had one alien race invading the city.

Like you though, I will try whatever comes available first, although design wise, CoT appeals to me the most.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

Personally, I would rather have the open world to explore, hence my choice of CoT over SoH, but would be lying if I said I wouldn't at least try it for a month or two. And yes, obviously, there are a lot of other factors like aesthetic decoupling and the fact that MWM has had so much more time to develop rich lore and history, etc, to help make that choice.

I agree with you on this point. I don't understand why SoH and VO took a futuristic approach. Currently, SoH has one alien race of enemies. For a space set game, you would expect to see a lot of different alien races. This puts more development work on the team, whereas you could have just had one alien race invading the city.

Like you though, I will try whatever comes available first, although design wise, CoT appeals to me the most.

Well, in all fairness we have aliens as well, although more alien technology at first, with the actual aliens to be added in a future update.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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I wonder if we con Grey to

I wonder if we con Grey to them

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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I am okay with the idea of

I am okay with the idea of SoH having stuff be on a ship, then you have to visit other planets to get various zone types/biomes. It's not that different from other MMOs, even superhero-themed ones. In Champions Online you are in a city, and you can take a plane/copter/submarine to other zones like a desert, the Canadian tundra, a New Orleans-style town, a remote island populated with animal men, an underwater area, and so on. The only difference between that and what SoH is doing is that it has the window dressing of the main city being on a ship and you are traveling to other planets instead of other parts of the same planet. It's just a theme thing.

That being said, I don't like the basic concept. It seems to me that the game is taking the tact of, "What would happen if the Enterprise from Star Trek were crewed by the Avengers?" Which is not something I ever wondered about nor am I interested in. That's a genre mashup that doesn't seem to fit.

I also echo the opinions from others that the idea of a single free-roaming city is better than something cut up into zones. Yes, pretty much every superhero MMO has done the zone thing. CoH even did it. DCUO, Marvel Heroes, you name it. But most comics involve characters in the same city all the time, whether it be New York City, or Metropolis, or Gotham, etc. Sure, the X-Men and Avengers flew all around the world and space and other dimensions, Doctor Strange goes into other dimensions in his OWN HOUSE, but most characters are swinging around a town they defend like Spider-Man or the Defenders or Batman and that's what I want to do.

Anyway, I can't criticize what SoH is doing. It's just not my cup of tea. I'm looking forward to CoT, very very much so.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

I wonder if we con Grey to them

RIP

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

I wonder if we con Grey to them

I guess we're just going to have to beat the snot out of them ask nicely.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Hitting the invisible ceiling

Hitting the invisible ceiling when flying as high as I can is one thing, hitting a literal ceiling with a lamp meant to mimic a sun will be another. Will we hear the 'click' at 8:30pm when the sun lamp turns off?

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Hitting the invisible ceiling when flying as high as I can is one thing, hitting a literal ceiling with a lamp meant to mimic a sun will be another. Will we hear the 'click' at 8:30pm when the sun lamp turns off?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Hitting the invisible ceiling when flying as high as I can is one thing, hitting a literal ceiling with a lamp meant to mimic a sun will be another. Will we hear the 'click' at 8:30pm when the sun lamp turns off?

Haha! Exactly what I was thinking of Huck, good find!

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Hitting the invisible ceiling when flying as high as I can is one thing, hitting a literal ceiling with a lamp meant to mimic a sun will be another. Will we hear the 'click' at 8:30pm when the sun lamp turns off?

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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CoT will be the one for me
lordnightmare wrote:

Realistically, CoT is the one for me for 2 reasons.

1. Process of elimination. Valiance and SoH both are doing a futuristic setting, with Valiance being more grounded in the 2099 genre which I could go on and on about how much I dislike it and SoH being HEROES. IN. SPAAAAAAAAAAACE which again, on and on about how much I dislike it. Give me Silver Age or at least Modern Age that acts like Silver Age any day.

2. The world has lore. Lots of it. The main reason I stuck with CoH (aside from the powers) was that it had a world that I genuinely liked. Same with Champions (despite the game not actually USING more than like.. 10% of the setting). Titan City actually has a story and the little we've gotten of it is enjoyable.

CoT will be the one for me when they actually release something I can believe in. I want to believe, but they are like willy wonka up in here. They have released some bits and pieces here and there, and what they have shown is impressive, but it is just fragments of a game so far. Show us the goods, and I will be a true believer through and through. Until then, I am forced to be a doubting thomas.

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I totally understand what you

I totally understand what you are saying. But I do believe that when they are done they will have a lot more contents and be a more finished game than SoH. The costume creator for SoH appears to have very limited options. They keep showing new fabrics and stuff but most are just street clothes. They have basically one mask, one cape and I don't think they even have the option for chest logos.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I totally understand what you are saying. But I do believe that when they are done they will have a lot more contents and be a more finished game than SoH. The costume creator for SoH appears to have very limited options. They keep showing new fabrics and stuff but most are just street clothes. They have basically one mask, one cape and I don't think they even have the option for chest logos.

In all fairness, I have seen criticism from some of SoH's fans over the fact that we have a lot of masks, capes, logo capability, etc, and lauding their larger pool of clothing. The case can be made either way.

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I don't think that is going

I don't think that is going to be the final situation in any case. Their main heroes have various different non-street clothing costume pieces, as well as capes. Surely they will have more once they are fully developed. I think they're focusing primarily on building the actual mechanics of the game, although I am impressed with the amount of customization that they do have, in terms of the realism of the hair, the eyes, and how much you are able to manipulate every aspect of the face. Perhaps this is the case for CoT (or at least the aspiration), but given the fraction of time that SoH have been around comparatively, what they have shown so far is impressive.

In any case, criticisms can be made all around. I'm in wait and see mode. I'm not thrilled with any one project, for varying reasons. I do think CoT has the potential to put out the superior product, but only if they actually make it happen. I know they are confident in their intent to get it done, but I'll believe it when I see it. I hope they come through, because the potential they have shown is tremendous.

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Would still play VO over Dcuo

Would still play VO over Dcuo tbh. Their character creator is vastly superior to DC even at this stage. Both have clumsy combat, but VO is in alpha while DCUO just feels like it is in a 7 year alpha.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Would still play VO over Dcuo tbh. Their character creator is vastly superior to DC even at this stage. Both have clumsy combat, but VO is in alpha while DCUO just feels like it is in a 7 year alpha.

You don't love the DCUO customization? The "pick one of 5 pre-made human faces" kind of choice? ;)

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Also you get to pick three

Also you get to pick three whole colors to use on your costume...

What I do like about DCUO are Luthor's voice and lines. €dit: Appearently he's voiced by James Marsters... no wonder I like him.
"That was despicable... I respect that." =P
But yes, as a whole it is far less than I'm wishing for in a superpower MMO.

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Does DCUO have Simon

Does DCUO have Simon Templeman as.. I dunno.. Anyone?

No?

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Nope, but they got Dwight

Nope, but they got Dwight 'Howling Mad Murdock' Schultz as Barry Allen and Martian Manhunter, Adam Baldwin as Superman... and yes, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill as Batman/Joker respectively.
All in all I'd say their voice acting is as good as one would expect, he rest of the game though...

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One of DCUO's non costume

One of DCUO's non costume related issues, is the separation of powers and fighting style. You can't just make a martial artist, he also has to have fire, or ice, something else. As others brought up, Superman became a good example of this, the game itself couldn't handle him and they needed to give him ice powers. What's worse, is every power was set, which is something CO falls to as well. CO and DCUO told you 'THIS is how ice powers work', while CoX asked "Ice? Which Ice? We have Ice Melee, Ice Ranged, Ice crowd control, Ice stealth melee, Ice defense.... etc etc"

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It’s doubly weird as the

It’s doubly weird as the Champions PnP System works more similar to a game like Freedom Force or how CoT seems to be going for than anything CO did. You can’t really cry balance since the ability to freely pick and choose your powers throws any notion of balance out.

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Honestly, one of the big

Honestly, one of the big reasons I prefer CoT to SoH or VO: it takes place in the real-ish world at present day.

The other two are in the future and SoH has a battlestar galactica thing going on :p

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From what I've seen of lore

From what I've seen of lore and gameplay, I am expecting that CoT will be my goto game, but I am looking forward to trying all 3 games.

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I suppose that the best test

I suppose that the best test we could give them is to attempt to make the same character on each and then see which one we enjoy playing the most. That would allow us to compare everything from the character creator, powers and ability builds, creative writing, and gameplay with the least number of variables.


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Soulwind wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

From what I've seen of lore and gameplay, I am expecting that CoT will be my goto game, but I am looking forward to trying all 3 games.

Lore, in particular, has me focused on CoT.

- I've moderately enjoyed 'heroes in space' comics in the past, but was never motivated to imagine characters in it- or even characters that grew up in a generation ship, so "ship of heroes" doesn't interest me much beyond, "How well can I pretend those are war walls and we're still in CoH."

- I'm a HUGE fan of hard near-future sci-fi, but mostly in exploring the concepts and trends that led to that imagined world, not actually playing within it- and powers-as-advanced-tech isn't my preference either. it again seems to be more of a "how much of the game and lore can I ignore" to enjoy it rather than imagining how to tie characters TO the lore, like I loved doing in CoH.

- CoT, in contrast, doesn't seem to be forcing much backstory on me. They HAVE a backstory that's relatively open to the narrative you choose to create. It's a city that's invariably been shaped by generations of superpowered heroes- but how you fit in is uniquely yours- many threads that you can use to "tie you in" but very few that tie you down.

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chase][quote=Soulwind wrote:
chase wrote:

- CoT, in contrast, doesn't seem to be forcing much backstory on me. They HAVE a backstory that's relatively open to the narrative you choose to create. It's a city that's invariably been shaped by generations of superpowered heroes- but how you fit in is uniquely yours- many threads that you can use to "tie you in" but very few that tie you down.

You know, I thought it was just the setting of the other two games I didn't like, but you make an excellent point here that I believe is even more significant.

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Story and lore are important

Story and lore are important but in the end if a game is fun I will play it regardless of the writing. I mean the Resident Evil series, Serious Sam and even the Mario World games had some bad stories and lore but they were a joy to play.
SoH and VO simply are not offering anything interesting in terms of game play or features so far. SoH in particular seems to be very feature anemic. I'm probably reading into it too much but SoH appears to be rushing a bare bones product to release in an effort to sustain future development. This, to me, is indicative of their background in mobile games development.
My interest lies with CoT as long as they can release a relatively bug free and smooth playing game as well as deliver on some of the features like, aesthetic decoupling, reputation/alignment, base building, leads, paths, ect. Having it look good would be a bonus as well cause I absolutely hate the look of both VO and SoH.

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[/youtube]https://www.youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

SoH are showing more and more combat videos. Looks like they are really going to meet their 2018 playable date. The only thing is, unlike CoT, they do not appear to have much in the way of character creation. Yeah they are many pieces, but from the Youtube comments, they are focused on human only parts. Not feeling that tbh.

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I mean... I'm no developer
Phararri wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

SoH are showing more and more combat videos. Looks like they are really going to meet their 2018 playable date. The only thing is, unlike CoT, they do not appear to have much in the way of character creation. Yeah they are many pieces, but from the Youtube comments, they are focused on human only parts. Not feeling that tbh.

I mean... I'm no developer and I know this is just alpha footage, but still, to me it looks like with work, in time this game could be almost as good as CoH. Personally, in 2018 with UE4, I'm just going to need more than that.

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Well, most of the power

Well, most of the power effects look pretty nice. I'll give them that... and then I wonder, how much of what we're seeing is actually their own work and how much are simply bought assets.
Those ground spikes for example... They look far better, and more intricate, than the rest of what we're shown.
Eh, I guess it looks nice enough, but something seems off to me. Maybe it's too similar to CoH or whatever.
(or maybe I'm just biased against it, since I already put money in CoT)

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

Well, most of the power effects look pretty nice. I'll give them that... and then I wonder, how much of what we're seeing is actually their own work and how much are simply bought assets.
Those ground spikes for example... They look far better, and more intricate, than the rest of what we're shown.
Eh, I guess it looks nice enough, but something seems off to me. Maybe it's too similar to CoH or whatever.
(or maybe I'm just biased against it, since I already put money in CoT)

From the little I have read/seen (almost only their videos) it seems that they are aiming for an almost straight replica of CoH, just that its setting is on a big spaceship instead of a city.

For me the biggest concern so far is that I haven't found anything about aesthetic power customization which most likely means they are either going with minimal one (like CoH had later on) or they are planning for a post launch "feature addon" for this. My second biggest is that so far all their group demos has been using a bog standard holy trinity setup and if that is the true limit to launch power sets then it doesn't look good. Add in Phararri's comment just above and it looks like SoH is doing a "bare minimum" release to have something playable early instead of going for a little later and having a solid and wide enough base. I mean they don't even appear on having control sets/AT's in at initial launch.

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Dear god, those energy weapon

Dear god, those energy weapon sound effects grate on the nerves. Sounds like bad Sci-Fi B movie effects. I hope for their sake that those fx are not final choices. That aside, I'm not seeing anything compelling that would make me chose SoH over CoT. Just the proposed scope of CoT alone puts it as the front runner of upcoming superhero MMOs in my mind.

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The combat SoH has shown is

The combat SoH has shown is definitely beautiful. I don't doubt that it is mostly original work. One thing I will say for them is that they know how to set a deadline and meet it.

However, it seems to me that they are basically trying to be a CoH clone, just with updated graphics and an updated setting. The more I think about it, the less I want that. CoH was good, but to almost completely replicate it is silly. That's why I'm gunning for CoT and Valiance. They're not trying to be CoH, but were just inspired by them overall. Especially for CoT, with a completely different approach to good vs evil, how your actions affect your gameplay, and the open world approach to building, I think it shows a lot more potential for keeping my long term interest than just trying to be a clone in a different setting.

Now if only the folks here could get things together enough to show some simple group combat footage...

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There are two things in that

There are two things in that video I don't like, one important, one nitpicky:

1) If I'm reading those power tray icons correctly, that looks like universal power recharge. I hope (and believe) that CoT will have individual power recharge rates as per the old game.

2) I find it disorienting that the narrator uses the word 'mob' in the general English sense to mean a bunch of people, when in a gaming context it usually means a single enemy (being short for 'mobile object').

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

There are two things in that video I don't like, one important, one nitpicky:

1) If I'm reading those power tray icons correctly, that looks like universal power recharge. I hope (and believe) that CoT will have individual power recharge rates as per the old game.

2) I find it disorienting that the narrator uses the word 'mob' in the general English sense to mean a bunch of people, when in a gaming context it usually means a single enemy (being short for 'mobile object').

One of the reasons we could not use the MMO Starter Kit way back when to speed up development is due to it's reliance on universal recharge. And yes, Mob is Mobile OBject

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Please allow me to express my

Please allow me to express my gratitude for MWM's willingness to go that extra mile.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Please allow me to express my gratitude for MWM's willingness to go that extra mile.

Word.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

There are two things in that video I don't like, one important, one nitpicky:

1) If I'm reading those power tray icons correctly, that looks like universal power recharge. I hope (and believe) that CoT will have individual power recharge rates as per the old game.

2) I find it disorienting that the narrator uses the word 'mob' in the general English sense to mean a bunch of people, when in a gaming context it usually means a single enemy (being short for 'mobile object').

One of the reasons we could not use the MMO Starter Kit way back when to speed up development is due to it's reliance on universal recharge. And yes, Mob is Mobile OBject

Honestly thinking a bit about global recharge makes it make no sense at all, to me it's a very bad and from most PoV's a failed design philosophy due to the limitations it puts on abilities, mainly that all animations outside of channeled ones are limited to be the exact same length.

I got to commend you for not taking the easy way out and doing it right (as in correct) from the start. The more I learn about the mechanics behind these games (CoH, SoH, VO) the more it looks like CoT is the "winner" in regards to capturing the feeling of CoH from a mechanics standpoint.

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Global cooldown does make

Global cooldown does make sense from one point of view. After casting instant abilities, a global cooldown is needed to prevent the casting of further instant abilities as fast as buttons can be pressed (or programmed). This is why you typically see some abilities state that global cooldown does not apply to them. Typically such global cooldown immune abilities would be potions or stance changes and these things would have their own specific cooldown timers.

But in a game like CoX where we could pre-cast our abilities into a queue, a global cooldown would not allow it. So I think that doing away with a global cooldown in CoT is a wise choice. Of course, this means that we would only have one or maybe 2 possible instant-cast abilities, each with its own specific cooldown so we couldn't spam more than a one-two punch in a fraction of a second.


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I'm not sure I understand

I'm not sure I understand this argument. Wouldn't an instant ability just have its own cooldown/recharge timer just like any other ability, thus making a global cooldown redundant? Can you give an example of one of these powers that might illustrate the point? At first I thought you were talking about potions, but then you said those would be immune.

The mention of potions reminds me of how fortunate we were in the old game not to have an inspiration-wide cooldown timer. You could pop as many of those candies as you had available. That was sooo nice.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Take a look at games like

Take a look at games like Final Fantasy XIV. When you execute any power, it puts a cooldown on vritually all powers until that power is refreshed.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I'm not sure I understand this argument. Wouldn't an instant ability just have its own cooldown/recharge timer just like any other ability, thus making a global cooldown redundant? Can you give an example of one of these powers that might illustrate the point? At first I thought you were talking about potions, but then you said those would be immune.

The mention of potions reminds me of how fortunate we were in the old game not to have an inspiration-wide cooldown timer. You could pop as many of those candies as you had available. That was sooo nice.

If you had one instant-cast ability, then you would be correct. Its own cooldown would prevent insta-spamming. But as soon as you have more than one instant skill, what is stopping you from spamming them all in a row in a fraction of a second? That's where a global cooldown comes in handy. And that is why I said that we would only have one or at most two instant-cast abilities as a result of having no global cooldowns implemented.

Edit: Another way of dealing with the lack of a global cooldown would be to make some of your instant-cast skills channeled, or channel-like. So that activating starts the ability but activating another ability before the first one fully develops prevents you from gaining its full benefit. I believe MWM has said they will actually be using this self-interruptible concept for some long-cast-time abilities, like snipe. I don't see why they wouldn't also do something like this with a damage over time or some other channel-like ability. So while you could spam a bunch of them in a fraction of a second, you wouldn't get any benefit of doing so if you don't give them a chance to proc their effects.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Take a look at games like Final Fantasy XIV. When you execute any power, it puts a cooldown on vritually all powers until that power is refreshed.

Sorry, I meant Huckleberry's argument. I know what global cooldown is and dislike it greatly.

Huckleberry wrote:

If you had one instant-cast ability, then you would be correct. Its own cooldown would prevent insta-spamming. But as soon as you have more than one instant skill, what is stopping you from spamming them all in a row in a fraction of a second? That's where a global cooldown comes in handy. And that is why I said that we would only have one or at most two instant-cast abilities as a result of having no global cooldowns implemented.

I think I get what you're saying. You're discussing powers that have no cast time (and maybe no animation time either), correct? I'm still having trouble thinking of examples of such powers. Taking them in abstract, if they have no cast time then what's wrong with spamming a bunch of them at once? That would seem to be an inherent advantage of a power with no cast time. Or, if that's not what the devs intended, then one might argue it was a design error to make them instant in the first place. Maybe I'm missing something in the logic by not having an actual example to discuss.

It's not really critical since it won't apply to CoT, but I'm curious about the idea and would like to understand it better.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I think I get what you're saying. You're discussing powers that have no cast time (and maybe no animation time either), correct? I'm still having trouble thinking of examples of such powers. Taking them in abstract, if they have no cast time then what's wrong with spamming a bunch of them at once? That would seem to be an inherent advantage of a power with no cast time. Or, if that's not what the devs intended, then one might argue it was a design error to make them instant in the first place. Maybe I'm missing something in the logic by not having an actual example to discuss.

It's not really critical since it won't apply to CoT, but I'm curious about the idea and would like to understand it better.

I think the reason you can't think of any examples is because smart game designers have prevented any examples from existing. One of the ways they've done this is by implementing the global cooldown. The other ways consist of providing all abilities with a minimum cast time, such as a 0.5 seconds or something like that. But almost every game has at least one instant-cast ability, and that is usually a push, stun or other from of interrupt. And interestingly enough, interrupts are also usually immune to global cooldowns.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Every power in CoT has an

Every power in CoT has an activation time and recharge time. This helps prevent the "instant fire" issue we find in other games that forces global cooldowns.

Now, the reason *why* we have the activation time, that's the fun part. Aesthetic Decoupling means that the power's effects, and visuals, are divorced. Under heavy network strain, like being in a large raid, this could cause a delay in the start of a power's animation, which would cause it no longer to tag with the actual power's activation. So, the activation time builds into every power a buffer in which if network lag happens, there is a buffer to allow the animation to be re-synched up to the power's execution. It's rarely a long time, but there does need to be some.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Every power in CoT has an activation time and recharge time. This helps prevent the "instant fire" issue we find in other games that forces global cooldowns.

Now, the reason *why* we have the activation time, that's the fun part. Aesthetic Decoupling means that the power's effects, and visuals, are divorced. Under heavy network strain, like being in a large raid, this could cause a delay in the start of a power's animation, which would cause it no longer to tag with the actual power's activation. So, the activation time builds into every power a buffer in which if network lag happens, there is a buffer to allow the animation to be re-synched up to the power's execution. It's rarely a long time, but there does need to be some.

you thought about every things ! :D

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Global cooldown does make sense from one point of view. After casting instant abilities, a global cooldown is needed to prevent the casting of further instant abilities as fast as buttons can be pressed (or programmed). This is why you typically see some abilities state that global cooldown does not apply to them. Typically such global cooldown immune abilities would be potions or stance changes and these things would have their own specific cooldown timers.

But in a game like CoX where we could pre-cast our abilities into a queue, a global cooldown would not allow it. So I think that doing away with a global cooldown in CoT is a wise choice. Of course, this means that we would only have one or maybe 2 possible instant-cast abilities, each with its own specific cooldown so we couldn't spam more than a one-two punch in a fraction of a second.

It would only make sense if those abilities have no animation to speak of. If they have a significant animation then just enforcing that the animation has to fully play out before being able to cast the next one would remove the need for a GCD in those situations. Even if they have no animation to speak of then a minimal "shared CD" just between those abilities would be enough.

This seems to rather be a product of a bit of laziness in the underlying design philosophy. From the games I have played with a GCD the main reason for making abilities being instant cast and still being on the GCD is to make them usable while moving and/or uninterruptable. For the first one then that just needs a "simple" flag to make them not be self-interrupted from movement. For the second one they could easily skip GCD and use the cast animation for their "speed" and making the uninterruptable ones fire at the start of animation while the interruptable ones fire at the end, that is effectively what they are doing anyway.

The main thing I have against current GCD systems though (which most likely makes me very biased against it) is that you can't queue an ability while it's on CD. This has always meant that to get max performance one has to "spam" the ability towards the end of the GCD to minimize the time "lost" between the abilities. Some has had a quasi queue system so that you can "queue" one ability but the ones I have experienced only allowed it during the final 0.5 secs, and it was primarily to compensate for network latency.
Being able to queue abilities, even just the next one, makes it much more fluent imo, and you have the bonus of not getting those pesky "can't use that ability yet" messages.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Being able to queue abilities, even just the next one, makes it much more fluent imo, and you have the bonus of not getting those pesky "can't use that ability yet" messages.

This is pretty much what I miss most about CoH's base game play. Combat had rhythm because as one move activated you could select the next. As a rogue in Warcraft, I feel like I need to constantly just bash keys, and if I'm not bashing keys it's because I'm out of resources. Even with spell casters you can't quite ready up the next spell until that last half second for the latency buffer as you said. More APM (or actions per minute) does not always mean better.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Every power in CoT has an activation time and recharge time. This helps prevent the "instant fire" issue we find in other games that forces global cooldowns.

Now, the reason *why* we have the activation time, that's the fun part. Aesthetic Decoupling means that the power's effects, and visuals, are divorced. Under heavy network strain, like being in a large raid, this could cause a delay in the start of a power's animation, which would cause it no longer to tag with the actual power's activation. So, the activation time builds into every power a buffer in which if network lag happens, there is a buffer to allow the animation to be re-synched up to the power's execution. It's rarely a long time, but there does need to be some.

So if I'm understanding this right, the activation time on powers causes the power to damage the mob in the same window as the power animation, instead of damage then animation 5 secs later. It also prevents the animation from clipping when activating the next power. Each power also has it's own cool down preventing quick spamming of a single power, essentially forcing us to chain powers.

With activation time on powers, does movement not interrupt power activation like it does in most other games? I can see activation time being an issue if movement does interrupt a power's activation.

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In City of Heroes, you were

In City of Heroes, you were rooted for duration of the power animation and could not cancel. The only exception if I remember right, was you could cancel Snipe attacks by moving. I could be wrong about that, ice blasters didn't have a snipe.

Without any active dodge system or avoiding Guild Wars 2 style 'templates' on the ground, I thought it worked well. I still like it better than how most melee characters in WoW look liker they're on speed as most attacks are 'instant', need to do damage immediately, and be done in time for the next attack within the 1.5 second global cool down.

Some attacks in City of Heroes could take 3-4 seconds to build up before the damage happened, and it let the animations carry a lot more weight. You could watch the battle and understand what was going on, what knocked people back, where damage came from.

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You will be able to move and

You will be able to move and attack at the same time. However, attacking will affect your movement over time.

The only animation which “cancels” for movement are those tied to our passive-charging mechanic where you must stand still to charge a power. Moving will cause the power to trigger at the current charges state instead of the fully charged state.


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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Some attacks in City of Heroes could take 3-4 seconds to build up before the damage happened, and it let the animations carry a lot more weight. You could watch the battle and understand what was going on, what knocked people back, where damage came from.

Aye, that's something I rarely see in other MMOs and miss a lot.

Tannim222 wrote:

You will be able to move and attack at the same time. However, attacking will affect your movement over time.

Interesting! Meaning if you keep attacking while moving your movement will be slowed increasingly the more you do it?

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Some attacks in City of Heroes could take 3-4 seconds to build up before the damage happened, and it let the animations carry a lot more weight. You could watch the battle and understand what was going on, what knocked people back, where damage came from.

Aye, that's something I rarely see in other MMOs and miss a lot.

Tannim222 wrote:

You will be able to move and attack at the same time. However, attacking will affect your movement over time.

Interesting! Meaning if you keep attacking while moving your movement will be slowed increasingly the more you do it?

Well I remember reading somewhere that certain powers will do more damage the longer you stay in place before it fires. This might be extended to all causing powers to do less damage when moving and more when standing still?

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Some attacks in City of Heroes could take 3-4 seconds to build up before the damage happened, and it let the animations carry a lot more weight. You could watch the battle and understand what was going on, what knocked people back, where damage came from.

Aye, that's something I rarely see in other MMOs and miss a lot.

Tannim222 wrote:

You will be able to move and attack at the same time. However, attacking will affect your movement over time.

Interesting! Meaning if you keep attacking while moving your movement will be slowed increasingly the more you do it?

Well I remember reading somewhere that certain powers will do more damage the longer you stay in place before it fires. This might be extended to all causing powers to do less damage when moving and more when standing still?

No, passive-charging is used for specific powers.

Continuing to attack while moving requires some form of recessive penalty other wise it would be tribal to kite players in pvp and mobs in pve since we don’t have rooting animations. We also want to avoid the off-putting feeling off going full speed- STOP!-move super slow-go full speed that the old game had because of rooting.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

No, passive-charging is used for specific powers.

Continuing to attack while moving requires some form of recessive penalty other wise it would be tribal to kite players in pvp and mobs in pve since we don’t have rooting animations. We also want to avoid the off-putting feeling off going full speed- STOP!-move super slow-go full speed that the old game had because of rooting.

Does this mean it's a stacking movement speed debuff?

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