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Discuss: Pre-Alpha Chargen - Make Anyone

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Mordheim13
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So... no difference between

So... no difference between Heroes and Villains? That's interesting. And sad. Personally, I would think that the fact of a character wearing a swastika as part of their uniform would pretty much announce them as a Villain. But if there's no difference between hero and villain... Superman=Dr. Doom=Batman, then that says a great deal, and more troubling, than whethersomeo0ne gets to run around nude with a swastika necklace or not. :/

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

So... no difference between Heroes and Villains? That's interesting. And sad. Personally, I would think that the fact of a character wearing a swastika as part of their uniform would pretty much announce them as a Villain. But if there's no difference between hero and villain... Superman=Dr. Doom=Batman, then that says a great deal, and more troubling, than whethersomeo0ne gets to run around nude with a swastika necklace or not. :/

Something significant is being missed about this. I don’t have time to get into it.
Suffice to say, there are differences between heroes and villains. They are more subtle that “one is good” and “one is bad”.

Here paths and you can switch them. They aren’t simply switching like a, well lever or toggle. There are journeys involved.

Costume pieces are not divided by hero and villain into what the character can potentially where. Npcs of course are different. Players who get pieces from then”good”’or “bad”’guys can decide for themselves why their character wears the pieces they wear.


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Path switching is not at

Path switching is not at launch, per devs in a different thread, meaning once you get down a certain path so far you're there on that path until they add more paths/storylines/ways to walk the line between each(post launch some time).

As for the rest of this conversation, for reference,

Jocasta from Marvel Heroes:

Luminary from City of Heroes:

Captain Atom from DCUO:

This level of skin texture is around the amount we are going to get in CoT, per the devs in this thread. And honestly that should be just fine.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

...(snipping more than I should)...

If CoT doesn't allow for the same general costuming options found in most modern comic books then it will be considered "stupid" (to use your word) as an effective superhero game. And while overt public nudity is specifically banned/limited in MOST countries (not just "some") that doesn't stop comic books from "getting away with" what they get away with. These are facts, not my "convenient opinions".

...(snipping more than I should)...

We are VERY close to agreement here, but I do have a caveat.

Comic book artists can carefully frame many of their elements both in its forced perspective and in the context in which it's displayed. When you have that level of control, you can often get away with designs that may be otherwise questionable. It's similar to how certain elements do pass by movie censors when the same raw elements portrayed in a slightly different context would be blocked. When dealing with costumes in a multiplayer game where the USER controls context and presentation, some things will be disappointingly off-limits. There have been several PG and PG-13 movies (Teen-equivalent enough) that display breasts, buttocks, and even full frontal, but I wouldn't point to those brief moments (not counting "pause") on the screen as the argument why devs should allow a similar outfit and turn the city into armies of topless superheroines batting equally-underclad villainesses in a massive battle royale, lunging and grappling one another, their pasties' tassels a-twirling with real physics....

(cough)...um.. I digress.

My point is there's a similar trap in comparing at TOO granular a level what's been allowed under the comic code and what's might be appropriate in-game.

Like you, I do encourage them to not be too conservative in their judgement (a few of my favorite characters have been 'all-fur/scale/weird-organic-skin, not wearing a stitch' critter-people, after all). I'm just highlighting the limits.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

So... no difference between Heroes and Villains? That's interesting. And sad. Personally, I would think that the fact of a character wearing a swastika as part of their uniform would pretty much announce them as a Villain. But if there's no difference between hero and villain... Superman=Dr. Doom=Batman, then that says a great deal, and more troubling, than whethersomeo0ne gets to run around nude with a swastika necklace or not. :/

If someone's wearing a swastika then they're probably a villain, or at least not a hero (unless undercover). You don't really need some game mechanic to tell you they're a villain.

Dr. Doom is a poor choice here as, at least in more modern stories, he has heroic qualities.

But no, from a gameplay stand point there's no difference between heroes and villains, though most likely doing villian path stuff will not put you in good graces with the police, so there is that.

So while the game doesn't mechanically seperate heroes from villains the various factions will have an opinion on your character and their action. So while yes, Batman=Joker the police are only going to be shooting at one of them (depending on the kind of Batman you're playing.)

Personally I really like this approach. It's far more nuanced than a hard hero/villain divide. How do you tell which side of the law a character you just met is on? Same way as you'd find out if someone is a jerk IRL, get to know them, listen to what others say about them, and watch for the reactions of other people.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Sounds like they'd be perfect for CoT - the land of Kens and Barbies. ;)

Yep. Sounds about right.

We tried a unisex character at one point as you pointed out but it just didn't work right. It would have solved a lot of problems and general headaches (plus a lot of forum arguments) if it had.

I'm happy to give what information I can when I have it and it doesn't violate NDA or something (and I have time to give a response). I wish I had more time to look at the postings here but I'm swamped as is.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Tyche already addressed this issue. The textures applied will always make it appear that the body isn’t “nude”. Even if the pieces are the same color as the skin.

Now for making furry costumes pieces and furry faces, that is all about applying texture.

That's what i thought when i saw this in a livestream (the second picture of the list '09 clothes materials, picture available on titanscity.com in the exclusive article on what will CoT have : inventory, environnment, animations, fx, etc ) :

Looking for those clothes materials let us guess that it will be difficult to have a skin effect on the clothes :)

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jtpaull wrote:
jtpaull wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Push the limits until it hurts. If you don't you run the chance of CoT being taken for a regressive, backward thinking game.

That's a -bit- dramatic.

Well Lothic does have Angelina as Malificent for his/her Avatar.

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mrultimate wrote:
mrultimate wrote:
jtpaull wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Push the limits until it hurts. If you don't you run the chance of CoT being taken for a regressive, backward thinking game.

That's a -bit- dramatic.

Well Lothic does have Angelina as Malificent for his/her Avatar.

Which gives only the slightest clue as to how dramatic they can be.

Shocking Blu

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

So... no difference between Heroes and Villains? That's interesting. And sad. Personally, I would think that the fact of a character wearing a swastika as part of their uniform would pretty much announce them as a Villain. But if there's no difference between hero and villain... Superman=Dr. Doom=Batman, then that says a great deal, and more troubling, than whethersomeo0ne gets to run around nude with a swastika necklace or not. :/

Something significant is being missed about this. I don’t have time to get into it.
Suffice to say, there are differences between heroes and villains. They are more subtle that “one is good” and “one is bad”.

Here paths and you can switch them. They aren’t simply switching like a, well lever or toggle. There are journeys involved.

Costume pieces are not divided by hero and villain into what the character can potentially where. Npcs of course are different. Players who get pieces from then”good”’or “bad”’guys can decide for themselves why their character wears the pieces they wear.

To add to this, and maybe to put it more simply, CoT will not be fundamentally divided into strict "blueside" or "redside" areas like CoH and CoV was. Player characters will not be forced into being either a "blueside hero" or a "redside villain". In a nutshell how you choose to play CoT will decide if your characters are considered more hero-ish or more villain-ish.

This is precisely why it would make no practical sense for CoT to divide up its inventory of PC costume items into "hero only clothes" or "villain only clothes" because there aren't going to be any hardwired groupings like that in the game. As Tannim said there will be NPC factions that have their own clothing so I suppose if you want to consider clothes you can get from the more villainous groups to be "villain clothes" that would be up to you.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

As for the rest of this conversation, for reference,

Jocasta from Marvel Heroes:

Luminary from City of Heroes:

Captain Atom from DCUO:

This level of skin texture is around the amount we are going to get in CoT, per the devs in this thread. And honestly that should be just fine.

I'm good with this as long as the CoT Devs don't start to think characters like these went "too far" in the past and now require some equivalent of a metallic set of "fig leaves" to conceal their gratuitous robotic nakedness. That's all I'm really concerned about based on some of the frankly reactionary posts I've seen on this and other threads.

Also as long as this level of "freedom" also applies to all the other reptilian, furry, wooden, fiery, ghostly, etc. type characters who won't be sporting traditional "human skins" I'll be fine with that too.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:
Lothic wrote:

...(snipping more than I should)...

If CoT doesn't allow for the same general costuming options found in most modern comic books then it will be considered "stupid" (to use your word) as an effective superhero game. And while overt public nudity is specifically banned/limited in MOST countries (not just "some") that doesn't stop comic books from "getting away with" what they get away with. These are facts, not my "convenient opinions".

...(snipping more than I should)...

We are VERY close to agreement here, but I do have a caveat.

Comic book artists can carefully frame many of their elements both in its forced perspective and in the context in which it's displayed. When you have that level of control, you can often get away with designs that may be otherwise questionable. It's similar to how certain elements do pass by movie censors when the same raw elements portrayed in a slightly different context would be blocked. When dealing with costumes in a multiplayer game where the USER controls context and presentation, some things will be disappointingly off-limits. There have been several PG and PG-13 movies (Teen-equivalent enough) that display breasts, buttocks, and even full frontal, but I wouldn't point to those brief moments (not counting "pause") on the screen as the argument why devs should allow a similar outfit and turn the city into armies of topless superheroines batting equally-underclad villainesses in a massive battle royale, lunging and grappling one another, their pasties' tassels a-twirling with real physics....

(cough)...um.. I digress.

My point is there's a similar trap in comparing at TOO granular a level what's been allowed under the comic code and what's might be appropriate in-game.

Like you, I do encourage them to not be too conservative in their judgement (a few of my favorite characters have been 'all-fur/scale/weird-organic-skin, not wearing a stitch' critter-people, after all). I'm just highlighting the limits.

I will have to hand it to you for finally coming up with a reasonably insightful argument for reconsidering whether all the costuming examples we see in comic books could be used in CoT "as is" without questioning the ramifications involved. I knew someone might finally get around to this eventually. ;)

Yes, I would agree that at least some of what we see the artists "getting away with" in comic books has to do with the fact that they are working in a static medium and can effectively hide or distort certain things based on the fact that we, as the consumers of the artwork, will never have a chance to see these characters from different points of view. It's kind of like the classic joke of the typical hospital gown that might do a fine enough job covering your front but basically always leaves your ass hanging open in the back. The point is that comic book readers never get to see that embarrassing "backside" point of view.

So sure I'd accept there would be some examples of this where you could say a certain image only made it into the comic book based on how the artist strategically posed a particular character. For example even I called out the following pic earlier in this thread for being "questionable" based on the obvious lack of clothing:

Obviously this only "works" because we see her from the side with some very convenient "shadows" to help conceal the important bits. As I've already implied I doubt anything specifically like this would pass muster for CoT.

But I will still have to make the case that depending on the possible "non-human skin" textures that UE4 can provide that there will likely be many scenarios of "pseudo-nudity" that would be acceptable from the point of view of plausible deniability. We've already covered many of them here including the "robot" examples and the "furry" examples.

Bottomline I once again think that if the CoT Devs are smart about it there will be many opportunities to be able to recreate an overwhelming majority of the types of characters we see in modern comic books. As I "dramatically" said before this game needs to push the boundaries of what's possible but clearly in a responsible manner.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
mrultimate wrote:
jtpaull wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Push the limits until it hurts. If you don't you run the chance of CoT being taken for a regressive, backward thinking game.

That's a -bit- dramatic.

Well Lothic does have Angelina as Malificent for his/her Avatar.

Which gives only the slightest clue as to how dramatic they can be.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Finally, a bit of light dawns

Finally, a bit of light dawns, a hint of possible good news... does all this "There is no difference between heroes and villains", "no separate zones" stuff mean that there will be no PvP? That would be a wondrous relief.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Finally, a bit of light dawns, a hint of possible good news... does all this "There is no difference between heroes and villains", "no separate zones" stuff mean that there will be no PvP? That would be a wondrous relief.

PvP exists in its own phase of the city. You never have to enter it if you don’t choose to do so. PvP will always be voluntary.

We do plan to have forms of PvP that don’t involve combat (like races and such) eventually. Even those will be voluntary.


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::sigh:: So much for the hope

::sigh:: So much for the hope. PvP zones would be great for RPing, but they never work out that way. There's always Stalkers (or groups of Heroes, who can be just as bad) around attacking anyone they see so they can build up their otherwise non-existent egos, making PvP RP problematic at best. Oh well. Another game with whole areas I will have to avoid. So much for "new."

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

::sigh:: So much for the hope. PvP zones would be great for RPing, but they never work out that way. There's always Stalkers (or groups of Heroes, who can be just as bad) around attacking anyone they see so they can build up their otherwise non-existent egos, making PvP RP problematic at best. Oh well. Another game with whole areas I will have to avoid. So much for "new."

You grossly misunderstood what Tannim just said, yo. PvP is basically a cloned instance of the city, hence the use of the word phase.

You literally will never have to experience PvP because, in theory, it should be an exact copy of the game world, but with PvP enabled. You ONLY get into that phase if you tell the game you want to. You can't "accidentally" stroll into a "PvP Zone" because that's not how it works. You will never need to traverse from one side of the city to another and cross a PvP Zone, because that's not how it works either.
Think of it like a toggle switch: PvP On or PvP Off but it's all the same city and only you can flip that switch.

That, however, does not mean you won't cross this game's equivalent of, say, "Hazard Zones" which are more dangerous, like in CoH The Hollows and Perez Park. Basically zones that have a lot more, higher level enemy groups clustered together, but it is still PvE. Those might exist.

Disclaimer: All of this is essentially how it was described in a different thread by the game developers.

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Mordheim13 wrote:

[EDIT: MeSoSollyWan basically beat me to this]

Mordheim13 wrote:

::sigh:: So much for the hope. PvP zones would be great for RPing, but they never work out that way. There's always Stalkers (or groups of Heroes, who can be just as bad) around attacking anyone they see so they can build up their otherwise non-existent egos, making PvP RP problematic at best. Oh well. Another game with whole areas I will have to avoid. So much for "new."

For what it's worth CoH did have its Arena system which was effectively "closed zone PvP" where you could control who was allowed to enter. You could have done as much unmolested "PvP RP" there as you wanted. I have no real idea if CoT hopes to provide for something similar but in any event no one would ever force you to PvP regardless.

Also it's not clear to me if you really understood what Tannim was saying about how PvP will work in CoT. Instead of full-time dedicated "open PvP" zones (like CoH's Recluse Victory) the way CoT is supposed work (IIRC) is that a given zone will have multiple instances where some of them would be "PvE only" and others would be "PvP enabled". With that there should never be any location in the game that you would have to "suffer" PvP to get to. Simply never choose to PvP and you will be kept safe in "PvE only" instances of the game.

The actual "good news" about this (assuming you actually liked PvP) is that this theoretically means we'll likely be able to PvP almost anywhere in the game instead of having to be quarantined off into a few arbitrary zones built especially for it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Good for you.

Good for you.

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Hopefully we'll be able to

Hopefully we'll be able to get a large selection of instanced PvP zones for things such as one on one duels, private matches, and so forth.

Or even just some way to have such things. Champions Online makes a dome when you duel someone, others can still walk through it but they can't affect the participants.

Having to go into an open PvP instance just to 1v1 someone seems counter intuitive to me. So hopefully we'll get arenas, or the option to duel people, or some such.

Not that I plan on PvPing much at all.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Hopefully we'll be able to get a large selection of instanced PvP zones for things such as one on one duels, private matches, and so forth.

Or even just some way to have such things. Champions Online makes a dome when you duel someone, others can still walk through it but they can't affect the participants.

Having to go into an open PvP instance just to 1v1 someone seems counter intuitive to me. So hopefully we'll get arenas, or the option to duel people, or some such.

Not that I plan on PvPing much at all.

This would be great. Sometimes RP is better in an on-location setting, rather than an arena, but it's hard to have your scene when some jackass Stalker comes wandering through and Assassin Strikes one of the participants. I hated Stalkers almost as much as Malta Sappers. Maybe more, because the Sappers were just doing what they were programmed to do, Stalkers had a person behind them controlling them. I was so happy when they got Nerf-batted so that they couldn't one-shot someone while automatically getting the first hit. Stalker players whined, I broke out champagne! :)

Shocking Blu

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Good for you.

I think most people would agree (even if they hate PvP) that the model for a game where each of the game's zones is "permanently locked" into either being a PVE only zone or a PVP enabled zone is kind of silly, or at the very least unnatural.

Again knowing that CoT is going to be based on phased instances where you'll always be able to choose if you want to participate in PvP or not I think the way CoT plans to handle PvP is vastly superior to the way CoH handled it. Basically if you're a person who wants to participate in PvP it simply makes more sense that you should be able to fight anyone else who also wants to PvP anywhere you want instead of having to travel half-way around the world to go to a specific spot on a map where it's allowed. It'd be like if you and I lived in New York City and I wanted to punch you in the face but we'd both have to travel to North Dakota first before the "world" would allow my fist to hit your face. That's just dumb.

So yeah I get most people still really hate PvP - ironically I was never much of a fan of it myself in CoH. But at least I can praise the Devs of CoT for trying to make it more "workable/rational" in their game.

Project_Hero wrote:

Hopefully we'll be able to get a large selection of instanced PvP zones for things such as one on one duels, private matches, and so forth.

Or even just some way to have such things. Champions Online makes a dome when you duel someone, others can still walk through it but they can't affect the participants.

Having to go into an open PvP instance just to 1v1 someone seems counter intuitive to me. So hopefully we'll get arenas, or the option to duel people, or some such.

Not that I plan on PvPing much at all.

Again I'd also hope CoT eventually has its own version of an Arena system.

But as I recall the Arenas supposedly ended up being -less- popular than even the open PvP zones, and it was always an accepted guesstimate that maybe only about 5% or 10% of CoH's playerbase ever regularly spent time in those zones. *shrugs*

Mordheim13 wrote:

I was so happy when they got Nerf-batted so that they couldn't one-shot someone while automatically getting the first hit. Stalker players whined, I broke out champagne! :)

Well to be fair Stalkers were literally purpose-built to be "one-shot killers" so when they got nerfed it almost made that entire archetype pointless to play. I can't tell you how many Stalkers I wasted while I was badging in PvP zones just because they couldn't finish me off with their first strikes. I suppose you could blame the CoH Devs for even trying to produce that kind of archetype in the first place but either way the outcome was kind of sad.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Good for you.

I think most people would agree (even if they hate PvP) that the model for a game where each of the game's zones is "permanently locked" into either being a PVE only zone or a PVP enabled zone is kind of silly, or at the very least unnatural.

Again knowing that CoT is going to be based on phased instances where you'll always be able to choose if you want to participate in PvP or not I think the way CoT plans to handle PvP is vastly superior to the way CoH handled it. Basically if you're a person who wants to participate in PvP it simply makes more sense that you should be able to fight anyone else who also wants to PvP anywhere you want instead of having to travel half-way around the world to go to a specific spot on a map where it's allowed. It'd be like if you and I lived in New York City and I wanted to punch you in the face but we'd both have to travel to North Dakota first before the "world" would allow my fist to hit your face. That's just dumb.

So yeah I get most people still really hate PvP - ironically I was never much of a fan of it myself in CoH. But at least I can praise the Devs of CoT for trying to make it more "workable/rational" in their game.

Project_Hero wrote:

Hopefully we'll be able to get a large selection of instanced PvP zones for things such as one on one duels, private matches, and so forth.

Or even just some way to have such things. Champions Online makes a dome when you duel someone, others can still walk through it but they can't affect the participants.

Having to go into an open PvP instance just to 1v1 someone seems counter intuitive to me. So hopefully we'll get arenas, or the option to duel people, or some such.

Not that I plan on PvPing much at all.

Again I'd also hope CoT eventually has its own version of an Arena system.

But as I recall the Arenas supposedly ended up being -less- popular than even the open PvP zones, and it was always an accepted guesstimate that maybe only about 5% or 10% of CoH's playerbase ever regularly spent time in those zones. *shrugs*

Mordheim13 wrote:

I was so happy when they got Nerf-batted so that they couldn't one-shot someone while automatically getting the first hit. Stalker players whined, I broke out champagne! :)

Well to be fair Stalkers were literally purpose-built to be "one-shot killers" so when they got nerfed it almost made that entire archetype pointless to play. I can't tell you how many Stalkers I wasted while I was badging in PvP zones just because they couldn't finish me off with their first strikes. I suppose you could blame the CoH Devs for even trying to produce that kind of archetype in the first place but either way the outcome was kind of sad.

I'm perfectly fine with you, or anyone else, who wants to punch me in the face having to go to North Dakota to do so. Inasmuch as I will NEVER go there, or anywhere near there (except maybe one day to see Mt. Rushmore), that seems quite an elegant solution to the dilemma to me. ;) And I have no sympathy for Stalkers, regardless. One of my favorite memories was when they would attack my Tank, Baby Sister, fail to drop her, then I would Foot Stomp, knocking them down, and wail on them until they hospitaled. Of course, I then had to leave quickly, before they came back with greater numbers. LOL It took several of them to "kill" one 5 or 6 year-old girl. A point I would make when they actually caught me and took me out (not as easy as it sounds, given my Travel Power was Teleport-- harder to follow than a Flyer). :) I am curious how exactly this "PvP anywhere" system will work. Will PvEers have superbattles raging around them everywhere we go, complete with infantile taunts, of each other and of people who don't care to get involved? Of course, that's where Block and, if provided, the visual version of block come in, but still. Sounds like a bit of an annoyance. Much like the ubiquitous Gold Farmers.

Shocking Blu

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It's a seperate instance.

It's a seperate instance.

Like another copy of the game world -just- for PvP.

So there'll be no interactions between PvPers and PvE-ers.

Sort of like having a seperate dimension just for fighting eachother... And NPCs, I guess. I think they're still in the PvP instance.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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The only reason anyone

The only reason anyone thought a zone dedicated to PvP was a bad idea, was because they were afraid to enter the zone for badges. Otherwise, no one would really care at all about a pvp zone.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The only reason anyone thought a zone dedicated to PvP was a bad idea, was because they were afraid to enter the zone for badges. Otherwise, no one would really care at all about a pvp zone.

Haven't we had this discussion before? I can't speak for the many care-bears out there but I probably spent thousands of hours in the PvP zones for various badging efforts and I killed countless people who tried to gank me while doing it. No, I was never "afraid" to badge in PvP zones and apparently I'm just about the only badger who never whined about it either. *shrugs*

So contrary your assumption the only reason I thought having a handful of dedicated PvP zones was a semi-dumb idea was that it enshrined the vaguely idiotic notion that I might not be able to fight a player -here- but if I were to get that player to walk 50 meters to my left (in other words go into the neighboring PvP enabled zone) then I could fight them there. That "unnaturalness" to the whole thing is the main thing that bothered me.

I simply think it's cool that if PvP is "your thing" you'll now be able to do "your thing" essentially anywhere you want. Progress! ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I am curious how exactly this "PvP anywhere" system will work. Will PvEers have superbattles raging around them everywhere we go, complete with infantile taunts, of each other and of people who don't care to get involved? Of course, that's where Block and, if provided, the visual version of block come in, but still. Sounds like a bit of an annoyance. Much like the ubiquitous Gold Farmers.

Remember how in CoH when a zone got full and the game would spawn off multiple instances of that zone to handle all the people? It'll be pretty much like that instead you'll be able to manually switch between those instances when you opt to set (or unset) your PvP flag. When(if) you want to PvP the game will simply reload you into a PvP enabled instance. This'll be how EVERY zone will potentially be both a PvE only and a PvP enabled zone at the same time.

Of course I'm simplifying the details just to better explain it here, but this is the basic nutshell of it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Not to deraint this further:

Not to deraint this further:
We want duels - uses a simple flag that locks the duelists in a PVE phase so they can only affect one another or npcs.

Multiplayer PvP will be its own phase of the entire city: a copy of the pve world with everyone who enters flagged for pvp.

We don’t have plans for small group arenas or base PvP.

We may consider designing the user generated content to be set to have a PvP setting to let players set their own PvP matches with another team - no promises.

Back to your regularly detailed thread about the avatar creator.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I am curious how exactly this "PvP anywhere" system will work. Will PvEers have superbattles raging around them everywhere we go, complete with infantile taunts, of each other and of people who don't care to get involved? Of course, that's where Block and, if provided, the visual version of block come in, but still. Sounds like a bit of an annoyance. Much like the ubiquitous Gold Farmers.

Remember how in CoH when a zone got full and the game would spawn off multiple instances of that zone to handle all the people? It'll be pretty much like that instead you'll be able to manually switch between those instances when you opt to set (or unset) your PvP flag. When(if) you want to PvP the game will simply reload you into a PvP enabled instance. This'll be how EVERY zone will potentially be both a PvE only and a PvP enabled zone at the same time.

Of course I'm simplifying the details just to better explain it here, but this is the basic nutshell of it.

I believe Mordheim13 was expressing interest in how PvP could be used to help RP-PVP.

There have been many roleplayers that like the idea of roleplaying with the POTENTIAL of attacking a foe. They want the danger, but want the danger to fit the narrative they're collectively crafting. You may not just see a foe and run in gun-a-blazing, like you would in typical PvP. Some games have tried offering RP-PvP servers, but that usually doesn't stop you from falling dead facefirst in your mead during a wedding feast because some jerk one-shots you, then rationalizes it by saying "luls- I'm RPing a homicidal maniac noobs" then disappearing, only to do it again 5 minutes later.

It's a similar issue with zone "fight club" PvP attempts that I saw on CoH servers. Sometimes the opposing factions were less-than-well-balanced. The losing side can get discouraged and leave to beat up NPC's instead. To encourage them to keep participating (as the zone becomes rather dull without adversaries) we'd often offer them a few chances for a fair fight, only to have it be disrupted by some stalker who didn't agree to those terms. The frustrated players get more frustrated (and leave), so everyone else gets bored and frustrated (and leaves), and the stalker swings wildly between reveling in the grief he caused and declaring himself the victim for being made a pariah just for "playing the game the way the devs intended."

---
Personally, I always saw the solution as player-controlled-faction-PvP (sometimes called "guildwar" PvP until the game of that name came out) In that, players declare different factions and recruit people to it. They agree to "wars" with other factions. Members of opposing factions then can attack one another and nobody else. You can opt for custom settings for the wars, from mandatory cooldowns to limited chat to whether one side gets buffed more than another (to encourage mismatched play). Heck, you could even apply "prizes" to a war- each site puts up some rare item or credits, for example. (you could even define a single "free for all" faction where everyone battles everyone else within it. I don't like this being just "supergroup vs supergroup" because you want some fluidity here- you want to be able to pick up a few dozen people on each side and just start beating each other with sticks.

The benefit: a controlled environment for the many different flavors of PvP.
- RP-PvP'ers have their tightly-controlled-but-reasonable-fight PvP.
- The people that like the "no holds barred, gank em till they cry" PvP will faction-war with other "no holds barred, gank em till they cry" folk and revel in the chaos.
- The people that like treating PvP more like a gentleman's league (competitive, but ultimately everyone wants everyone to have a good time ) organize themselves, and should they find someone in the group that's not demonstrating the same values, they send them off to find other like-minded parties.
- If one side fails to honor the rules of the war, they break the war agreement and the PvP ends.
- This controlled, managed structure could allow people who otherwise find PvP unappealing to explore it in safe, controlled, less-threatening ways. Yes, you could see carebear PvP wars. They'd all seem very Canadian- apologizing after a kill and offering to rez's from their inventory.

The downside:
- a lot more organizing needed.
- People that cannot find a faction willing to take them become outliers.
- It dilutes the PvP player base even further- More people in faction wars means even fewer bothering with zone PvP.
- Player-managed means Player drama. PvP means player drama. Player-managed PvP means player drama squared. The support tickets will be epic narratives that take a GM through incredible highs and lows. Counseling may be needed.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Not to deraint this further:
We want duels - uses a simple flag that locks the duelists in a PVE phase so they can only affect one another or npcs.

Multiplayer PvP will be its own phase of the entire city: a copy of the pve world with everyone who enters flagged for pvp.

We don’t have plans for small group arenas or base PvP.

We may consider designing the user generated content to be set to have a PvP setting to let players set their own PvP matches with another team - no promises.

Back to your regularly detailed thread about the avatar creator.

What are you going to do to stop gankers from going to a low level zone and killing every newbie that they see over and over again, or camping in outdoor mission zones meant for low level players and killing every low level player that they see? I'm really worried that the open world PvP would turn into something like the DCUO open world PvP system, and I've seen a lot of evidence that this is definitely something we have to worry about here, and I know for a fact that "Just reporting them" or "If we don't encourage it, it won't happen" doesn't work. So how do we keep people from taking their high level characters, and taking them to low level areas to ruin the game for many new players?

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While I enjoy this discussion

While I enjoy this discussion of PvP possibilities. Perhaps we could take it to another, more appropriate thread even if for no other reason than to make it easier to find months from now.

May I suggest moving it to this thread:

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/how-should-pvp-phase-play-give-your-visions-here


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

While I enjoy this discussion of PvP possibilities. Perhaps we could take it to another, more appropriate thread even if for no other reason than to make it easier to find months from now.

May I suggest moving it to this thread:

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/how-should-pvp-phase-play-give-your-visions-here

Yes, please move further questions about PvP to that thread so as not to detail this one any longer.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

While I enjoy this discussion of PvP possibilities. Perhaps we could take it to another, more appropriate thread even if for no other reason than to make it easier to find months from now.

May I suggest moving it to this thread:

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/how-should-pvp-phase-play-give-your-visions-here

yeah we definatly should...

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Back to your regularly detailed thread about the avatar creator.

chase
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Not to deraint this further:
We want duels - uses a simple flag that locks the duelists in a PVE phase so they can only affect one another or npcs.

Multiplayer PvP will be its own phase of the entire city: a copy of the pve world with everyone who enters flagged for pvp.

We don’t have plans for small group arenas or base PvP.

We may consider designing the user generated content to be set to have a PvP setting to let players set their own PvP matches with another team - no promises.

Back to your regularly detailed thread about the avatar creator.

What are you going to do to stop gankers from going to a low level zone and killing every newbie that they see over and over again, or camping in outdoor mission zones meant for low level players and killing every low level player that they see? I'm really worried that the open world PvP would turn into something like the DCUO open world PvP system, and I've seen a lot of evidence that this is definitely something we have to worry about here, and I know for a fact that "Just reporting them" or "If we don't encourage it, it won't happen" doesn't work. So how do we keep people from taking their high level characters, and taking them to low level areas to ruin the game for many new players?

We may be better off moving this to a different game thread, rather than derail the thread on the character creator. I do know several people who were such masters at making eye-bleeding costumes that it might be considered a player vs player attack, but....

EDIT- others beat me to the suggestion

notears
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chase wrote:
chase wrote:
notears wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Not to deraint this further:
We want duels - uses a simple flag that locks the duelists in a PVE phase so they can only affect one another or npcs.

Multiplayer PvP will be its own phase of the entire city: a copy of the pve world with everyone who enters flagged for pvp.

We don’t have plans for small group arenas or base PvP.

We may consider designing the user generated content to be set to have a PvP setting to let players set their own PvP matches with another team - no promises.

Back to your regularly detailed thread about the avatar creator.

What are you going to do to stop gankers from going to a low level zone and killing every newbie that they see over and over again, or camping in outdoor mission zones meant for low level players and killing every low level player that they see? I'm really worried that the open world PvP would turn into something like the DCUO open world PvP system, and I've seen a lot of evidence that this is definitely something we have to worry about here, and I know for a fact that "Just reporting them" or "If we don't encourage it, it won't happen" doesn't work. So how do we keep people from taking their high level characters, and taking them to low level areas to ruin the game for many new players?

We may be better off moving this to a different game thread, rather than derail the thread on the character creator. I do know several people who were such masters at making eye-bleeding costumes that it might be considered a player vs player attack, but....

EDIT- others beat me to the suggestion

Already made a thread about it, it needs to be discussed, just not here.

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Alright so the costume

Alright so the costume creator itself. What are your plans on invisible body parts? I had an idea for a villain that I planned on making by making everything invisible except the torso and then making the torso itself look like a robotic drone.

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Hmm, I have a concept for a

Hmm, I have a concept for a character whose 'physical body' is in a life-support capsule, while his 'overt body' is a sort of psychic force-field that carries the capsule in his torso. So his 'body' would be translucent, with a big metal 'egg' in the middle.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The only reason anyone thought a zone dedicated to PvP was a bad idea, was because they were afraid to enter the zone for badges. Otherwise, no one would really care at all about a pvp zone.

Haven't we had this discussion before? I can't speak for the many care-bears out there but I probably spent thousands of hours in the PvP zones for various badging efforts and I killed countless people who tried to gank me while doing it. No, I was never "afraid" to badge in PvP zones and apparently I'm just about the only badger who never whined about it either. *shrugs*

So contrary your assumption the only reason I thought having a handful of dedicated PvP zones was a semi-dumb idea was that it enshrined the vaguely idiotic notion that I might not be able to fight a player -here- but if I were to get that player to walk 50 meters to my left (in other words go into the neighboring PvP enabled zone) then I could fight them there. That "unnaturalness" to the whole thing is the main thing that bothered me.

I simply think it's cool that if PvP is "your thing" you'll now be able to do "your thing" essentially anywhere you want. Progress! ;)

I didn't say everyone. You never heard PvErs on the CoH forum go "I hate PvP zones." All you would hear is "I hate going into a PvP zone, when I don't PvP."

So, while you may have gone in there, I didn't say there weren't non PvPers who couldn't go into a PvP zone. :p

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so the costume creator itself. What are your plans on invisible body parts? I had an idea for a villain that I planned on making by making everything invisible except the torso and then making the torso itself look like a robotic drone.

So like Phantom Limb?

Only with a robot body?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so the costume creator itself. What are your plans on invisible body parts? I had an idea for a villain that I planned on making by making everything invisible except the torso and then making the torso itself look like a robotic drone.

So like Phantom Limb?

Only with a robot body?

Kind of, It's not really a case of a humanoid shaped robot but without arms and legs. My idea was to get rid of the head and make the torso look like hal from the space odyssey and have all his attacks come from his eye by way of chest emmisions

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The only reason anyone thought a zone dedicated to PvP was a bad idea, was because they were afraid to enter the zone for badges. Otherwise, no one would really care at all about a pvp zone.

we used to go for shivans and nukes....useful

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On any question of gameplay

On any question of gameplay and gameplay mechanics Tannim222 is generally authoritive. As is felix.
On questions of UI mechanics (and some map stuff) along with some company legals and history I'm usually authoritive. Actually I'm pretty authoritive on the general coding as well and how our various code projects are managed and stored. I actually do a lot more - there is a reason I have that "senior" in my signature.
Costume mechanics has usually been Geeks. He also does map work as does Dr. Tyche. We have a few other map people who are building different parts.
Costume creation has been pretty much the entire art team. Some of them are working on the map too.
Story and lore is our Composition team
Dr. Tyche is ALWAYS authoritive on all of the above.
Shadow Elusive is our community manager, PR person, a serious member of the map team. He's stellar at all of the above.Unless he is contradicted by Dr. Tyche he is almost always authoritive in his statements; especially about scheduling.
If the named people make a statement I will not question or contradict what they say.
Questions out of our area we'll probably ask internally when we have the chance. We try not to ignore any reasonable questions.
Costume creation right now is extremely vital and someone is always paying attention to this conversation

I hope this helps people figure out when a give developer speaks if what they say is signficant and can be trusted to be true.
I often just come here to check for disputes and flame wars. Often what I say is to try to be a peacekeeper and a good listener.

I think we plan for transparent costume pieces but I don't know for sure. I know in terms of performance they are supposed to be bad but I'm not sure. I'm coming from memory of half-remembered conversations but I'll try to remember to ask the right people as this is a good question. Am I being vague? A bit. But mostly I just don't know but will try to ask on your behalf as I'm curious about this too.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

...snip...
I often just come here to check for disputes and flame wars. Often what I say is to try to be a peacekeeper and a good listener.
...snip...

You heard it here folks! If you want avelworldcreator's input on a topic, stop being civil and start a good argument.

.... or just invite Lothic to the thread. It generally has the same effect.

(joking!
#PleaseDontBanMeAvelworldcreator
#pleaseDontInviteLothicToTheThreadEither)

Lothic
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chase wrote:
chase wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

...snip...
I often just come here to check for disputes and flame wars. Often what I say is to try to be a peacekeeper and a good listener.
...snip...

You heard it here folks! If you want avelworldcreator's input on a topic, stop being civil and start a good argument.

.... or just invite Lothic to the thread. It generally has the same effect.

(joking!
#PleaseDontBanMeAvelworldcreator
#pleaseDontInviteLothicToTheThreadEither)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If it sometimes takes somebody (i.e. me) to act enough the fool in one of these threads to get a Dev to swoop in and "correct me" by actually providing some much needed actual information I'm always more than willing to play my part...

BTW, You're welcome! ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Costume creation right now is extremely vital and someone is always paying attention to this conversation
[...]
I think we plan for transparent costume pieces but I don't know for sure. I know in terms of performance they are supposed to be bad but I'm not sure. I'm coming from memory of half-remembered conversations but I'll try to remember to ask the right people as this is a good question. Am I being vague? A bit. But mostly I just don't know but will try to ask on your behalf as I'm curious about this too.

This subject actually came up over on the Costume Suggestion thread some months ago. I know several forum-goers (i.e. notears) went back and forth on it but I'm not sure if a relevant Dev ever actually definitively addressed the full plans for it there.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
chase wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

...snip...
I often just come here to check for disputes and flame wars. Often what I say is to try to be a peacekeeper and a good listener.
...snip...

You heard it here folks! If you want avelworldcreator's input on a topic, stop being civil and start a good argument.

.... or just invite Lothic to the thread. It generally has the same effect.

(joking!
#PleaseDontBanMeAvelworldcreator
#pleaseDontInviteLothicToTheThreadEither)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If it sometimes takes somebody (i.e. me) to act enough the fool in one of these threads to get a Dev to swoop in and "correct me" by actually providing some much needed actual information I'm always more than willing to play my part...

BTW, You're welcome! ;)

And you do it well... though Project Hero and Brainbot are equally skilled in the area. :)

Shocking Blu

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

...snip...
I often just come here to check for disputes and flame wars. Often what I say is to try to be a peacekeeper and a good listener.
...snip...

You heard it here folks! If you want avelworldcreator's input on a topic, stop being civil and start a good argument.

.... or just invite Lothic to the thread. It generally has the same effect.

(joking!
#PleaseDontBanMeAvelworldcreator
#pleaseDontInviteLothicToTheThreadEither)

My first really good lol of the day! Thanks to all!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

avelworldcreator
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Question presented in a

Question presented in a company channel:
Question: Character creation. Transparent body parts? Or just missing limbs?
I suspect the later.
Wasn't sure what channel to ask this in.

I have't got a response yet but I'll return with an answer once I have one. I'm leaning to "missing part".

Update:
No answer at this moment because you'll wind up looking inside the entire body if you do it and it'll look nasty. We can do both ways, and I think we can do a skeleton inside a transparent body, but it's not something in the first batch of looks.

Making the limb transparent or gone is easy - the problem is what happens when you look through the armpit after doing that.

OK, so the answer is "We don't know yet because we have to figure out how to deal with a potential unwanted side effect." I know what's he's talking about too. Sometime in other games I get a weird camera angle that makes me look at a partial view of my character. It's pretty screwed up.

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Lothic
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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Question presented in a company channel:
Question: Character creation. Transparent body parts? Or just missing limbs?
I suspect the later.
Wasn't sure what channel to ask this in.

I have't got a response yet but I'll return with an answer once I have one. I'm leaning to "missing part".

Yeah when this got talked about before there were all sorts of side-discussions like what the terms "transparent vs. translucent" mean related to computer graphics and whether "missing limbs" would literally not exist in the game or simply be made to be "invisible" to give the illusion of them not being there. Lot's of interesting questions and there are probably many ways to compromise on the implementation of this.

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Check my updated comment,

Check my updated comment, Lothic.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Check my updated comment, Lothic.

Yeah that's pretty much the same feedback as before. Many people have suggested variations of "missing limbs", invisible body/limbs, transparent limbs (with bones inside) and so on in the Costume Creator thread. I've tried to summarize as much of that as possible because again there's probably a lot of ways you could choose to implement those various things.

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Agreed. Thanks for your help

Agreed. Thanks for your help in straightening things out....

Actually an idea occurs to me. I'm passing it on but what if we create a limb that consists of a "cap" where the body parts would have joined? "Costuming/skinning" that part would be a litte trickier but nothing would actually be invisible or missing. I'm not sure if this will work so it's a shot in the dark.

.... Passed on as I was writing this. It's being considered. Unreal is at release 4.19. We are at 4.18 and preparing to upgrade. 4.20 has a feature that may make this more workable but is only "experimental" in 4.19 right now. At some point we need to freeze updating but it's looking like we may go at least that far.

For those of you that are curious about that update process:
https://trello.com/b/TTAVI7Ny/ue4-roadmap

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Agreed. Thanks for your help in straightening things out....

Actually an idea occurs to me. I'm passing it on but what if we create a limb that consists of a "cap" where the body parts would have joined? "Costuming/skinning" that part would be a litte trickier but nothing would actually be invisible or missing. I'm not sure if this will work so it's a shot in the dark.

.... Passed on as I was writing this. It's being considered. Unreal is at release 4.19. We are at 4.18 and preparing to upgrade. 4.20 has a feature that may make this more workable but is only "experimental" in 4.19 right now. At some point we need to freeze updating but it's looking like we may go at least that far.

For those of you that are curious about that update process:
https://trello.com/b/TTAVI7Ny/ue4-roadmap

Thanks for the info/effort. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to evolve these things over time. For instance if you ever figured out how to do something like Aquaman's hook/spear hand:

Then you'd have pretty much already figured out how to put a "cap" on the end of a missing limb. Things like this tend to enable each other as time goes on and getting periodic UE4 updates will obviously help with that too.

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I think we got that. :D

I think we got that. :D

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Agreed. Thanks for your help in straightening things out....

Actually an idea occurs to me. I'm passing it on but what if we create a limb that consists of a "cap" where the body parts would have joined? "Costuming/skinning" that part would be a litte trickier but nothing would actually be invisible or missing. I'm not sure if this will work so it's a shot in the dark.

.... Passed on as I was writing this. It's being considered. Unreal is at release 4.19. We are at 4.18 and preparing to upgrade. 4.20 has a feature that may make this more workable but is only "experimental" in 4.19 right now. At some point we need to freeze updating but it's looking like we may go at least that far.

For those of you that are curious about that update process:
https://trello.com/b/TTAVI7Ny/ue4-roadmap

That's a great idea, I think I suggested something like it a while ago but I called the cap a "spot". I think it would be cool if we could choose if we want the cap to be round or flat, like if we wanted a stump or just no limb at all.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Agreed. Thanks for your help in straightening things out....

Actually an idea occurs to me. I'm passing it on but what if we create a limb that consists of a "cap" where the body parts would have joined? "Costuming/skinning" that part would be a litte trickier but nothing would actually be invisible or missing. I'm not sure if this will work so it's a shot in the dark.

.... Passed on as I was writing this. It's being considered. Unreal is at release 4.19. We are at 4.18 and preparing to upgrade. 4.20 has a feature that may make this more workable but is only "experimental" in 4.19 right now. At some point we need to freeze updating but it's looking like we may go at least that far.

For those of you that are curious about that update process:
https://trello.com/b/TTAVI7Ny/ue4-roadmap

Thanks for the info/effort. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to evolve these things over time. For instance if you ever figured out how to do something like Aquaman's hook/spear hand:

Then you'd have pretty much already figured out how to put a "cap" on the end of a missing limb. Things like this tend to enable each other as time goes on and getting periodic UE4 updates will obviously help with that too.

I think Aquaman's water hand is also relevant here (being translucent)

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Those are all good points. I

Those are all good points. I'll make sure to pass this along. The "differing style" stumps is a good thought (as is the transluscent hand). Just makes you wonder what it would look like to look at the end of Aquaman's wrist through that hand!

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Aquaman is useful for

Aquaman is useful for something!

J/K Aquaman is awesome.

Under the water hand is probably just gold from the stump-cup-thing.

Having energy hands would be a neat addition to costume options.

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A dev run through I watched

A dev run through I watched recently featured translucent ghost npcs. Looking through the face to the back of the head and vice versa made determining facing difficult.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

A dev run through I watched recently featured translucent ghost npcs. Looking through the face to the back of the head and vice versa made determining facing difficult.

Not to be picky but aren't ghosts 'supposed' to be hard to focus on exactly anyway?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Foradain wrote:

A dev run through I watched recently featured translucent ghost npcs. Looking through the face to the back of the head and vice versa made determining facing difficult.

Not to be picky but aren't ghosts 'supposed' to be hard to focus on exactly anyway?

It makes them harder to target in PvP and would give players who used that option an unfair advantage

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Foradain wrote:

A dev run through I watched recently featured translucent ghost npcs. Looking through the face to the back of the head and vice versa made determining facing difficult.

Not to be picky but aren't ghosts 'supposed' to be hard to focus on exactly anyway?

It makes them harder to target in PvP and would give players who used that option an unfair advantage

Maybe if CoT was going to be a FPS. Mouse clicking (or tab targeting) would barely be affected by something like that if at all.

That said I'm sure if anything like that gave an "unfair advantage" to players in PvP it would be quickly discovered during PvP beta testing.

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Also can we make it so that

Also can we make it so that we can go back and edit our body sliders while we're making our costume? Cause like my idea is to make my character have like perfect sphere as a torso, make the head and limbs invisible and stick a focal point on the chest to make a big robotic floating eye, and I would really like to go back and edit the torso to see how round I can make it while I'm making this guy.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
notears wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Foradain wrote:

A dev run through I watched recently featured translucent ghost npcs. Looking through the face to the back of the head and vice versa made determining facing difficult.

Not to be picky but aren't ghosts 'supposed' to be hard to focus on exactly anyway?

It makes them harder to target in PvP and would give players who used that option an unfair advantage

Maybe if CoT was going to be a FPS. Mouse clicking (or tab targeting) would barely be affected by something like that if at all.

That said I'm sure if anything like that gave an "unfair advantage" to players in PvP it would be quickly discovered during PvP beta testing.

Alright fair point

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Also can we make it so that we can go back and edit our body sliders while we're making our costume? Cause like my idea is to make my character have like perfect sphere as a torso, make the head and limbs invisible and stick a focal point on the chest to make a big robotic floating eye, and I would really like to go back and edit the torso to see how round I can make it while I'm making this guy.

Hmm. We will be doing non-humanoid forms as we go on. I think "beholder" style bodies might be managed. Costuming might be an issue but I'll try to pass this one (or point the right people to this portion of the forums).

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
notears wrote:

Also can we make it so that we can go back and edit our body sliders while we're making our costume? Cause like my idea is to make my character have like perfect sphere as a torso, make the head and limbs invisible and stick a focal point on the chest to make a big robotic floating eye, and I would really like to go back and edit the torso to see how round I can make it while I'm making this guy.

Hmm. We will be doing non-humanoid forms as we go on. I think "beholder" style bodies might be managed. Costuming might be an issue but I'll try to pass this one (or point the right people to this portion of the forums).

Well if we have invisible body parts I can probably manage with that.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Also can we make it so that we can go back and edit our body sliders while we're making our costume?

Pretty sure what little we've seen in the vids shows us that the GUI for the character creator is not going to be separated into a "body GUI" and a "costume GUI" like CoH was. Looks like the sliders for all that will be based from a single main screen (like pretty much every other modern character creator handles this).

avelworldcreator wrote:

Hmm. We will be doing non-humanoid forms as we go on. I think "beholder" style bodies might be managed. Costuming might be an issue but I'll try to pass this one (or point the right people to this portion of the forums).

If we're going to talk about non-humanoid character models we might as well mention a few of ones that are going to be the most likely desired ones: dog/cat shapes, centaur shapes (including horse, snake, drider, etc.), draconic shapes, werewolves, and so on.

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Centaurs.

Centaurs.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Centaurs.

Yes, Centaurs would be cool. Both the classic style, and the White Wolf:Scion ones whose bodies were motorcycles. Buuut... if THAT could be done, then perhaps vehicles (at least motorcycle/snowmobile/jet ski sized) could eventually be possible, maybe as a Travel Power (no, I don't know if CoT will use that term as CoX did, I'm just using the term for reference). That would be great for some character concepts.

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I think centaurs would be

I think centaurs would be easier than other 4 legged models as at least half of the model doesn't need to change.

Also... Sneeple. Snake people.

Edit:

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We have definite plans AFAIK

We have definite plans AFAIK for things like this. How far we will go depends on the technology and our other resources to do it. That means no definite promises for any non-human type and definitely none for our first iteration (which is basically our alpha release I think). Right now this is firmly in the "We don't know yet" category.

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That's fine. I doubt I'd

That's fine. I doubt I'd create a centaur, but maybe a sneeple... Snerson.

Though a centaur costume would be awesome for a magic type character who's powers/spells backfired.

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Snakes... why did it have to

Snakes... why did it have to be snakes?

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Snakes... why did it have to be snakes?


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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Question presented in a company channel:
[i]Question: Character creation. Transparent body parts? Or just missing limbs?
I suspect the later.

*Latter.

Because if I'm here, it's to be unhelpful.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Question presented in a company channel:
[i]Question: Character creation. Transparent body parts? Or just missing limbs?
I suspect the later.

*Latter.

Because if I'm here, it's to be unhelpful.

Fail! You were actually helpful! :p

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Question presented in a company channel:
Question: Character creation. Transparent body parts? Or just missing limbs?
I suspect the later.

Sometime in other games I get a weird camera angle that makes me look at a partial view of my character. It's pretty screwed up.

Best example of this sort of thing that I can think of comes from ... World of Warcraft. In that game, if you were wearing a "robe" chest piece of equipment, it would put your character "in a dress" (of sorts) that basically had an ankle length hem to it. This was FINE ... so long as you were walking around or otherwise standing upright. That's because the open "bell" of the robe at the hem was pointing down at the ground where the camera couldn't "see" up under the robe simply due to a lack of available distance from the avatar. In practice, what wound up happening was that your character's avatar would only show what amounted to ankle down of your boots (so there would be feet under your robe) but then completely neglected to render anything (anything...) inside the robe from the ankles on up.

If you think for a second, you'll probably realize the problem. The interior volume of the robe had no textures inside of it, meaning that when you looked "up" into the robe from the bottom, it was completely transparent ... all the way to the terrain. And while that wasn't an issue while running around, as soon as your character avatar went horizontal ... like when you were swimming ... you'd suddenly be presented with a view of your character that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm talking ludicrous. See for yourself ...

.

.

Those kinds of non-fatal visual errors happen when you just "delete stuff" without putting anything in as a replacement. I presume that avelworldcreator is WELL aware of these kinds of issues, hence why programmatically, under the hood, anything having to do with missing limbs on CoT Avatars would probably be well advised to take the "stumpy" route in order to "seal" the exterior of the avatar properly and then let the remainder of the "phantom limb" be missing a texture (thereby rendering it transparent). That way, the limb is "there" in its entirety (bones and all), but portions of it simply aren't visible (and therefore aren't visually relevant).


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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Centaurs.

I would have to make the centaur of attention....probably a tank

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While we're on the topic of

While we're on the topic of nonhuman parts for character creation, would tails and wings be considered costume pieces or be added as parts of the body? I feel like the former could be easier, but the latter could allow for more customization since it would mean you're not taking up a space on the character.

also this is better suited for the suggestions thread, but hair made out of non-hair things like vines, tentacles, etc. would totally be cool

Also focusing on the topic of invisible body parts, if that's pulled off I wonder if that would allow for interesting visual effects to be done over the invisible parts. Like a galaxy-like fog (or a foggy effect in general) kind of like the texture in my icon, laid over an invisible surface. Or having a glowing outline around something that is otherwise invisible. Or having a 'sheen' to the invisibility that is affected by lighting, like the sheen on metals but without the base of the metal being there for the reflection to be on.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Snakes... why did it have to be snakes?


What's HIS problem? That means they're unarmed, right? Perfectly safe! :D

Shocking Blu

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

What's HIS problem? That means they're unarmed, right? Perfectly safe! :D

He's not afraid of the snakes, he's afraid for them. Poor creatures, their Right to Bear Arms violated from hatching...

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Thanks, Redlynne, that's the

Thanks, Redlynne, that's the issue precisely. I've see it in WoW myself as well as, more recently, Conan Exiles.

Oh, we aren't going to move to 4.19 because it will interfere too badly with the costume creator right now and we are too close to a release to do the kind of rewriting to fix the issues that would cause. 4.20 is likely at some point I believe but I'm not 100%.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

What's HIS problem? That means they're unarmed, right? Perfectly safe! :D

He's not afraid of the snakes, he's afraid for them. Poor creatures, their Right to Bear Arms violated from hatching...

Yeah, everyone deserves a pair of these!

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Lol !! That's so useless ! I

Lol !! That's so useless ! I love it xD

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Indeed. The 2nd Amendment:

Indeed. The 2nd Amendment: the one freedom which guarantees all the rest. Which proves what I've believed all along: Snakes HAVE no inalienable rights. :)

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It's an old joke, but:

It's an old joke, but:

I bet we see something like this in game. We know there's people with animal traits from the lore releases, so bears with assault rifles are possible.

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This will be the target of my homage. Or maybe this one:

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Just a heads up. Try to stay

Just a heads up. Try to stay away from political or religious comment. Dangerous ground and often a cause of a thread shutdown.

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Da, Kommisar. LOL

Da, Kommisar. LOL

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