Mordheim13 wrote:

Well said. it's about common sense, not counter-customization.

I'm alright with one crotch fits all. Or, one (male) crotch fits all (males).

Whichever works.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Why offer a "package" slider when a [i](*cough*)[/i] ... Pull Down Menu ... [i](*ahem!*)[/i] of preset options would work just as well? Although, given the context of such a suggestion ... o.O;

This whole conversation reminds me of that one time in pocket D when someone made a guy that looks like a dick with the amry hat and the organic chest and legs and then started make dick jokes. It was good for a laugh and if he had over stayed his welcome I would've been annoyed with him

One of the hazards of making a habit of playing Devil's Advocate on forums like these is sometimes I find myself arguing for positions that are, shall we say, not terribly popular. Clearly the debate on whether this game should stick to traditional Barbie and Ken Doll anatomies versus adopting more realistic ones remains a "hot button issue" considering how many times it keeps being independently brought up on this forum over the years.

As Brainbot has speculated I have attempted to approach the issue not from a question of whether it's "socially taboo" or even as much from the point of view of it being an "appropriate use of Dev time/effort to implement" but simply as a question of what he's called "counter-customization". To me something like a bulge slider or a nip bump slider is an abstract thing that should be debated as a point of customization for our characters just as much as any face slider or height slider might be. In 2018 I simply don't see the need to remain childishly parochial about such things.

If we can argue the merits of these things just at the level of considering them "generic sliders" like any other then the entire debate simplifies considerably. We know some games (particularly many modern Korean MMOs) tend to get carried away with providing hundreds of sliders for extremely tiny facial details which arguably would never be noticeable during normal play. Is this the metric we should use to determine if any given single slider should be implemented in CoT? Should we (or even could we?) come up with some kind of definitive benchmark to objectively determine whether slider X is more "globally relevant" than slider Y is based on some kind of scientific survey?

Clearly there are going to be sliders in the character creator of this game that are going to be considered more fundamentally useful/important than a bulge slider or nip bump slider will ever be. But just as easily I could argue that a bulge slider or nip bump slider is likely more useful in terms of customization freedom than say a fourth or fifth semi-redundant eyebrow angle slider. As I've always said everything is relative in this game.

Ultimately there is value in having these discussions because it provides the Devs some insight into what their future potential players are thinking about. Even I'll acknowledge that -not- having a bulge slider or nip bump slider in this game would likely -not- prevent me from wanting to play this game. For me this remains a basic issue of wanting as many customization options as possible, even if that simplistic desire allows for scenarios that some might find questionable for any number of reasons legitimate or otherwise.

I think what annoys me the most about this is the apparent Dev attitude concerning this topic. In a game that otherwise lauds itself for trying to provide as many character customization options as possible the Devs here seem to act as if they've actually -accomplished- something by totally ignoring this entire area of customization. Instead of acknowledging that they've sheepishly avoided dealing with this topic in a mature fashion they've instead implied they now have "no worries" after turning a blind eye to their own paradigm of "providing as many options as possible".

I get that the Devs of any game will never be able to offer "everything to everybody" but I really don't think they should be openly [b]HAPPY[/b] to be willing to give up on something like this so easily. What's next? Will they give up on wings or hair animation just because those things are hard to do and only a subset of the playerbase actually wants them? All I'm saying is that the Devs should be very mindful where they decide to draw the line between what they judge to be worthwhile for this game. At the very least they shouldn't be -proud- of the fact that they can't offer everything to everybody.

Mordheim13 wrote:

Is it truly mature to equate having a large or small penis, or showing nipples through clothing, with having wings available in a superhero game, or a variety of hairstyles available in any game? Dress it up as you please, but the crusade to have visible genitalia is simply that. Do keep in mind that there will be younger players on the game, it's not just YOUR (whoever the "you" might specifically be) little playground. Allow me to use an example from CoH. I once teamed with a family which played the game together (mother, father, three kids of various ages) for a few hours in Croatoa. During that time, I toned down language and watched my humor out of RESPECT (there IS such a thing). But what if I had had a character with nipple bumps, camel-toe, and nothing but butt-floss? There would be no way to "tone that down." Are those parents "narrow-minded" for not wanting their kids to see a cartoon version of superhero Playboy? Or should they have to be excluded from the game? Such attitudes I consider to be intellectual bullying : "If you have standards, you are narrow-minded." Just as much as "If you wear a skirt, you're a whore" (One I have heard ad nauseum).
Surely there must be ahappy medium between "Paw Patrol" and "Girls Gone Wild."

I had similar experiences on COH and agree that a happy medium would be best. Especially since I have younger family members that will likely want to play this game one day as well.

Huckleberry wrote:

Mordheim13 wrote:

Is it truly mature to equate having a large or small penis, or showing nipples through clothing, with having wings available in a superhero game, or a variety of hairstyles available in any game? Dress it up as you please, but the crusade to have visible genitalia is simply that.

I really don't know where you got the impression that [b]anyone[/b] was asking for visible genetalia. And the only reason a slider was even mentioned, if you choose to do the research, was to actually enable the option to make a package smaller, not larger. Please stop using such straw-man arguments.

I agree. The people against having a slider or any kind of bulge seem to insinuate in a ridiculous way that we want to see moose knuckles running around the city. Or have heroes running around with extremely large bulges scaring off the children that could be playing the game. I dont know how many times "anatomically correct" has come up and that is all we are asking for.

Mordheim13 wrote:

It's not "straw man" and you know it. I guess you weren't very clear, here. Positively opaque.

Yes. Actually. It is a straw man argument:

[i][b]straw man[/b] - A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[/i]

ivanhedgehog wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:

Mordheim13 wrote:

Is it truly mature to equate having a large or small penis, or showing nipples through clothing, with having wings available in a superhero game, or a variety of hairstyles available in any game? Dress it up as you please, but the crusade to have visible genitalia is simply that.

I really don't know where you got the impression that [b]anyone[/b] was asking for visible genetalia. And the only reason a slider was even mentioned, if you choose to do the research, was to actually enable the option to make a package smaller, not larger. Please stop using such straw-man arguments.

c
I agree. The people against having a slider or any kind of bulge seem to insinuate in a ridiculous way that we want to see moose knuckles running around the city. Or have heroes running around with extremely large bulges scaring off the children that could be playing the game. I dont know how many times "anatomically correct" has come up and that is all we are asking for.

There will be quite a few sliders that most people never use, just because they are obscure.I can see a "groin adjustment parameter" being limited to a +-20% or some such number not being a problem. Allowing both 'captain codpiece' and "robbie robot" to get an appropriate look. a compromise to allow that finishing touch but not allowing grotesque parodies.

This sounds reasonable.

My “love muscle” comment was a joke, primarily because presumably there will be other “muscle” sliders and that would help it “fit in”. In all seriousness I think such a slider would be a bad idea. It would draw too much negative attention for little or no gain. Just have the standard generic “tights bump” traditional in comics and call it good.

I’m not a prude, I own Conan Exiles since beta and I’ve used the male genetalia slider (and it’s not a bulge, you see the thing literally flopping around in that game if you wear no pants). But what fits in that game won’t fit in this one.

Atama wrote:

My “love muscle” comment was a joke, primarily because presumably there will be other “muscle” sliders and that would help it “fit in”. In all seriousness I think such a slider would be a bad idea. It would draw too much negative attention for little or no gain. Just have the standard generic “tights bump” traditional in comics and call it good.

I’m not a prude, I own Conan Exiles since beta and I’ve used the male genetalia slider (and it’s not a bulge, you see the thing literally flopping around in that game if you wear no pants). But what fits in that game won’t fit in this one.

I agree that a slider begets undue scrutiny.
But I think a simple toggle would be just fine. As has been expressed in this thread and others, there will be some character designs who will use the male body model but will also be be missing or not have any package for very legitimate reasons. I think it would be a good idea to give those characters the option.

Brainbot wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I agree. The people against having a slider or any kind of bulge seem to insinuate in a ridiculous way that we want to see moose knuckles running around the city. Or have heroes running around with extremely large bulges scaring off the children that could be playing the game. I dont know how many times "anatomically correct" has come up and that is all we are asking for.

Well considering this was started by the extremely mature post you made:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Wait... no bulges?
What the frick

I mean when you troll out a childish post you have to expect childish responses.
In addition to that, there is only one person trying to equate the request of a more anatomically correct figure with visible sex organs. If you want to be respected for your opinions at least show respect back.

Im sorry I have a personality. And how is making a gripe in a joking matter turned into trolling, lack of respect, and childish? Not every comment has to be so serious, abundant in fancy words, and grammatically correct. So, lighten up.

Edit: Oh and who insulted who first? So that's an interesting comment about showing maturity.

[youtube]_QyYaPWasos[/youtube]

Like seriously, this whole thread went from a conversation about the costume design, to a conversation about dongs, to full out flame war. Yes arguing can help, but not when we're insulting each other. Don't care who started it either, it doesn't help stop with the flame war.

Fireheart wrote:

So, how about those (insert sports team).

Be Well!
Fireheart

Hmm, it used to be that the 3 online topics to avoid were politics, religion, and professional sports.

When you gotta dig one of those out to divert attention AWAY from "package slider" debates... well, I'm sure there's some meme akin to Godwin's Law that could explain this...

Actually you know what? Did it already, here's the thread https://cityoftitans.com/forum/lets-argue-dong-sliders-breast-sliders-and-jiggle-physics I'm honestly getting tired of costume threads being derailed with discussions about umentionables. Do it in this thread please.

Brainbot wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Hypocrisy that isn't there? Where was this humor that you state I couldn't take? Nowhere.

There has been more than one comment making it sound like the people for sliders or bulges at all, are just being perverse. That was my point.

Im sorry my comment was "less than serious" and not in a "respectful tone." I mean honestly? Who sits here judging the tone and the seriousness of ones comments? You have too much time on your hands buddy. Get some fresh air!

Fine there is no hypocrisy. When you make a joke it's 'your personality'. When others make a joke it's 'ridiculous'. Or wait, could it be that the jokes just were not funny much like yours.

And yes you are right all those comments that came from one person that accuse you of being perverse are because we got together at Sizzler and hashed out what one person was going to say. Or maybe it's just that one guy who keeps making those claims all on his own.

Furthermore, when you tell people they are being ridiculous it is in no way judging the tone and seriousness of their comments but when I point out your tone and seriousness I just have too much time on my hands is a correct evaluation of the situation. Or maybe you have just given another example of hypocrisy.

All I wanted was for you to not lump me in with a particular and, I agree' ridiculous poster and acknowledge that not everyone who disagrees with a slider is calling you perverse. I also wanted you to stop vilifying those that oppose you by throwing us all in one bucket and telling us we are being ridiculous, especially when you started the topic in a ridiculous manner. For example, you could look at posts by notears, rookslide, Cobalt Azurean, jtpaull and myself to see reasons why we disagree with a male enhancement slider that have nothing to do with calling you a pervert. You don't have to agree, but at least show those of us the same respect we have shown you by not calling out how ridiculous it is to basically shout out 'Hey I want to see a bulge'. You are smart enough to know the end result of you original post so getting mad about it now is disingenuous.

I read probably the first sentence and then decided not to read anything else. Frankly Brainbot can go on for about 4 more pages in an argument and that's just not what I want to do. I will not be replying to you after this sir. Have a great night!

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Brainbot wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Hypocrisy that isn't there? Where was this humor that you state I couldn't take? Nowhere.

There has been more than one comment making it sound like the people for sliders or bulges at all, are just being perverse. That was my point.

Im sorry my comment was "less than serious" and not in a "respectful tone." I mean honestly? Who sits here judging the tone and the seriousness of ones comments? You have too much time on your hands buddy. Get some fresh air!

Fine there is no hypocrisy. When you make a joke it's 'your personality'. When others make a joke it's 'ridiculous'. Or wait, could it be that the jokes just were not funny much like yours.

And yes you are right all those comments that came from one person that accuse you of being perverse are because we got together at Sizzler and hashed out what one person was going to say. Or maybe it's just that one guy who keeps making those claims all on his own.

Furthermore, when you tell people they are being ridiculous it is in no way judging the tone and seriousness of their comments but when I point out your tone and seriousness I just have too much time on my hands is a correct evaluation of the situation. Or maybe you have just given another example of hypocrisy.

All I wanted was for you to not lump me in with a particular and, I agree' ridiculous poster and acknowledge that not everyone who disagrees with a slider is calling you perverse. I also wanted you to stop vilifying those that oppose you by throwing us all in one bucket and telling us we are being ridiculous, especially when you started the topic in a ridiculous manner. For example, you could look at posts by notears, rookslide, Cobalt Azurean, jtpaull and myself to see reasons why we disagree with a male enhancement slider that have nothing to do with calling you a pervert. You don't have to agree, but at least show those of us the same respect we have shown you by not calling out how ridiculous it is to basically shout out 'Hey I want to see a bulge'. You are smart enough to know the end result of you original post so getting mad about it now is disingenuous.

I read probably the first sentence and then decided not to read anything else. Frankly Brainbot can go on for about 4 more pages in an argument and that's just not what I want to do. I will not be replying to you after this sir. Have a great night!

Thank you

Thanks gang for a good morning laugh at all the bickering. Y'all have taken "epeen" to a whole new level.
Pun intended.

jtpaull wrote:

notears wrote:

alright deleted the thread due to a dev begging me to not raise this dead horse just to beat it again

Insert gif of MIchael Jackson's "Beat It"

LOL! A pun of many layers!

Atama wrote:

They told him don’t you post that stuff around here
Don’t want to see that thread, it better disappear
They typed it in all caps, and their text is very clear
So beat it, just beat it

You better stop, don’t post that thread anymore
Don’t want to see no quotes, don’t reignite the war
We know you mean well, but you’ll beat a dead horse
(Don’t beat it)
You’re not trying to be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants those gripes repeated
Nobody wins in an internet fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it

Bwahahahaha!!!!

Atama wrote:

They told him don’t you post that stuff around here
Don’t want to see that thread, it better disappear
They typed it in all caps, and their text is very clear
So beat it, just beat it

You better stop, don’t post that thread anymore
Don’t want to see no quotes, don’t reignite the war
We know you mean well, but you’ll beat a dead horse
(Don’t beat it)
You’re not trying to be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants those gripes repeated
Nobody wins in an internet fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it

Thanks, Atama. It's nice to see someone knows what the filk they're doing. ^_^

Atama wrote:

They told him don’t you post that stuff around here
Don’t want to see that thread, it better disappear
They typed it in all caps, and their text is very clear
So beat it, just beat it

You better stop, don’t post that thread anymore
Don’t want to see no quotes, don’t reignite the war
We know you mean well, but you’ll beat a dead horse
(Don’t beat it)
You’re not trying to be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants those gripes repeated
Nobody wins in an internet fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it

This post wins the internet. I tip my hat to you, good person.

avelworldcreator wrote:

What thread was that?!

Edit: Nevermind, found the link.
Good idea in general; just the title was in bad taste.

If you're talking to me, then I don't really think it was a good idea, I made the thread to just get the conversation out of here and talk about the entirety of the costume designer rather than one small part of it, and then Tannim came in going "Oh god please no, we already said we wouldn't do it just get it out of here" and I said "Okay" and then I deleted it.