Discuss: Pre-Alpha Chargen - Make Anyone

952 posts / 0 new
Last post
Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Unfortunately, they're trying

Unfortunately, they're trying to fix it by turning the tables. Righting a wrong with a second wrong, as it were.

Shocking Blu

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
We've seen comics leave their

We've seen comics leave their sexist roots and those comics and the artist tend to suck :p

The sales drop, no one likes the look of the character and usually the story starts to suck.

It's not a male thing, it's a person thing. Think Twilight or 50 Shades would sell if Edward or Christian were ugly? Or any romance novel lead :p I've read plenty of them and none of them are ever ugly. They're some form of good looking :p

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

We've seen comics leave their sexist roots and those comics and the artist tend to suck :p

The sales drop, no one likes the look of the character and usually the story starts to suck.

It's not a male thing, it's a person thing. Think Twilight or 50 Shades would sell if Edward or Christian were ugly? Or any romance novel lead :p I've read plenty of them and none of them are ever ugly. They're some form of good looking :p

You do realize not being sexist does not equal making characters ugly, right?

Sexism in comic books has a lot of forms, from how female characters are drawn to how they're utilized. There's a reason "women in refrigerator syndrome" originated with comics.

Which if you're not savvy it's the death or injury of a female character as a plot device in a story starring a male character.

There's also the act of damseling a female character where a usually kick butt female character is turned into something that needs to be rescued by a man.

Ect ect.

A lot of the sexims aren't unique to comics, of course, it's a larger media problem. But it's only relatively recently that women in media aren't either something to be saved or a prize to be won. With exceptions of course.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

We've seen comics leave their sexist roots and those comics and the artist tend to suck :p

The sales drop, no one likes the look of the character and usually the story starts to suck.

It's not a male thing, it's a person thing. Think Twilight or 50 Shades would sell if Edward or Christian were ugly? Or any romance novel lead :p I've read plenty of them and none of them are ever ugly. They're some form of good looking :p

Could you elaborate a bit more on this thought because as it reads now you seem to be saying that the success of a comic hinges on the sexist elements.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Death of a female character.

Death of a female character. You mean, death of the loved one. Works for either gender to lose their loved one. People just get upset when it's the female loved one who gets killed. That was always one of the stupid things for people to get upset with. "Oh no! The main character lost their lover! What will the main character do?!"

Damseling a female character. They do it to guys. "Look! The most bad ass member of the team, Wolverine, got his ass kicked once again!"

Called a trope.

What I'm saying is, lots of mediums have good looking characters as the main character. It's not limited to comics. And they sexualize them. Christian, Edward, Jacob...sexualized. Male characters of the story. This isn't a one way thing. It just gets whined about like it is. :p

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
I suspect they're saying it's

I suspect they're saying it's not sexism, it's biology.

Shocking Blu

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Death of a female character. You mean, death of the loved one. Works for either gender to lose their loved one. People just get upset when it's the female loved one who gets killed. That was always one of the stupid things for people to get upset with. "Oh no! The main character lost their lover! What will the main character do?!"

Damseling a female character. They do it to guys. "Look! The most bad ass member of the team, Wolverine, got his ass kicked once again!"

Called a trope.

What I'm saying is, lots of mediums have good looking characters as the main character. It's not limited to comics. And they sexualize them. Christian, Edward, Jacob...sexualized. Male characters of the story. This isn't a one way thing. It just gets whined about like it is. :p

This is true. Unfortunately, everyone is "oppressed" now. "Those horrible MEN!" "Kill whitey!" "Them illegals is stealin' our jobs!" Anyone who isn't getting exactly what they want thinks it's due to some deep, dark plot by some other group to ruin their life. Sorry, Buttercup; it's called "Life".

Shocking Blu

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 3 hours ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:

But don't act like her butt isn't a little accentuated.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

You know what else is in the eye of the beholder?

Freeking laser beams! And anti-magic!

So beautiful...

This made me laugh out loud. Thanks.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What I'm saying is, lots of mediums have good looking characters as the main character. It's not limited to comics. And they sexualize them. Christian, Edward, Jacob...sexualized. Male characters of the story. This isn't a one way thing. It just gets whined about like it is. :p

A character being attractive is not the same thing as a character being sexualized.
Sexualized is a form of objectification, or to be more precise, presenting or responding to someone as a sexual object only.

TitansCity
TitansCity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 6 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 02:09
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:

But don't act like her butt isn't a little accentuated.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

You know what else is in the eye of the beholder?

Freeking laser beams! And anti-magic!

So beautiful...

This made me laugh out loud. Thanks.

+1 :D

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 32 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
desviper wrote:

But don't act like her butt isn't a little accentuated.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

You know what else is in the eye of the beholder?

Freeking laser beams! And anti-magic!

So beautiful...

Epic lol! Made me miss the Rularuu Watchers, though :(.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

You know what else is in the eye of the beholder?

Freeking laser beams! And anti-magic!

So beautiful...

Yeah I wondered how long it'd take for someone to jump on that. Of course I love that those critters have become a multilayered cultural reference. For instance here's Futurama's take on a Beholder:

Futurama has also shown us old school Rust Monsters and even the dreaded Gygax himself. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Classic!

Classic!

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Death of a female character. You mean, death of the loved one. Works for either gender to lose their loved one. People just get upset when it's the female loved one who gets killed. That was always one of the stupid things for people to get upset with. "Oh no! The main character lost their lover! What will the main character do?!"

Damseling a female character. They do it to guys. "Look! The most bad ass member of the team, Wolverine, got his ass kicked once again!"

Called a trope.

What I'm saying is, lots of mediums have good looking characters as the main character. It's not limited to comics. And they sexualize them. Christian, Edward, Jacob...sexualized. Male characters of the story. This isn't a one way thing. It just gets whined about like it is. :p

Killing off a character and killing off a character specifically to give motivation to another character are different things. The latter happens way more frequently to female characters.

Your example of damseling isn't an example of damseling. For that example to work Wolverine would need to be captured then have him do nothing until rescued. Yes it happens sometimes to make characters but it happens far more often to female characters.

These are tropes for a reason. Because they happen all the time. They're directly named for female characters because they happen most often to female characters.

Wow, three examples from two sources. Welp that's it, everyone. Sexism no longer exists. Also from those sources all those characters are... Characters. They're not just defined by their soul trait of being attractive.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Sexism exists, but it's now

Sexism exists, but it's now swinging the other way. Creators can't seem to make a strong female character without them proving it by humiliating the men around them and making them like it. Which annoys me. I don't have to act like that, and I consider myself pretty strong-willed. Of course, I'm a smartass to everybody, regardless of gender, unless I'm ambivalent enough toward them that I just ignore them. :D

Shocking Blu

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
I think there's at least a

I think there's at least a couple of separate issues being mixed together here that probably ought to be dealt with individually. These are the question of sexism in comic book stories and the question of visual objectification of women.

As mentioned before the comic book industry has had a long unfortunate track record regarding sexism against female characters in its lore and narrative plotlines. It's out there, we all know about (via things like "Women in Refrigerators" and "The Hawkeye Initiative") and we know that various people have been doing various things about it in recent years whether you agree with those "remedies" or not. What's safe to say in terms of CoT is that the Devs of this game are likely going to avoid/eliminate sexist lore/stories as best they can in their game content.

Now as to the question of objectification of women we again know that it's been a traditional element of the comic book genre for a long time. There's always going to be a fine line between what's considered acceptable and what's considered crossing the line in terms of how "sexualized" comic book characters are allowed to be in any venue. Again I think in terms of this game the Devs are mindful of the issue and will react accordingly.

I actually think that our Devs' commitment to trying to eliminate "gender locked" costume items for CoT is a step in the right direction towards mitigating objectification of one gender over the other. If a game limits "sexy" things like corsets and garter belts to only one gender then it's tacitly encouraging only one gender to be the "sexy" gender. By making sure that both males and females can wear -anything- you're at least putting the responsibility for what players do with those options squarely in their hands as opposed to having the Devs be mostly to blame for what happens in the game.

Do I expect CoT to be a perfectly egalitarian game with absolutely no problems with regards to gender bias issues? No. But I think it'll be doing its best to offer an experience that's about as "non-sexist" as reasonably possible for a game based in the superhero genre.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Sexism exists, but it's now swinging the other way. Creators can't seem to make a strong female character without them proving it by humiliating the men around them and making them like it. Which annoys me. I don't have to act like that, and I consider myself pretty strong-willed. Of course, I'm a smartass to everybody, regardless of gender, unless I'm ambivalent enough toward them that I just ignore them. :D

You got some examples there?

And it's less of a swinging the other way and more of a push back. Most media is still by men for men staring men doing manly things.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Sure, comics used to be seist

Sure, comics used to be seist in that the female member of any superteam was the "weak" one. But I think that has pretty much gone away since the 80s and 90s, when Sue Storm, Jean Grey and Wanda Maximoff became each practically cosmic beings, and by far either the most powerful, or among the most powerful members of their respective teams. Add in Binary, Nova (Galactus' Herald) and others, and I don't think female characters are any longer the "meek and mild subserviants, we". As to them being good-looking, yes, they will always be so, to some degree. People LIKE good-looking people, and comics have always been about excess of various types, from abilities, to looks, to storylines, to levels of heroism/villainy.
Too bad so many people are too far up on their high horses to deal with it. Given the lessons of the past, their WORSE than the 50s people who wanted to ban comics for their content (who actually had more to object to).

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Power does not equal strong

Power does not equal strong character.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Sexism exists, but it's now swinging the other way. Creators can't seem to make a strong female character without them proving it by humiliating the men around them and making them like it. Which annoys me. I don't have to act like that, and I consider myself pretty strong-willed. Of course, I'm a smartass to everybody, regardless of gender, unless I'm ambivalent enough toward them that I just ignore them. :D

You got some examples there?

And it's less of a swinging the other way and more of a push back. Most media is still by men for men staring men doing manly things.

A pushback IS a swing the other way, when it gets to the point that the formerly oppressed are becoming the oppressors. The trope used to be of two men facing off, throwing testosterone around. Now, no such scene is complete without a woman either making fun of their testosterone (and then a few scenes later doing the same sort of thing), or out-testosteroning the men. It's a constant theme that men are stupid, weak, easily controlled, and that all women are queens/goddesses/wise/etc. Some men are the former, some women are the latter. But ANY stereotype is wrong, whether you feel the other person deserves to be stereotyped because people like them did/said horrible things in the past or not. You can't make up for historical mistreatment by mistreating the descendants of those who did the former mistreatment. All you accomplish is an unending cycle of resentment and conflict. Treat others as you wish to be treated, no more, no less.

Shocking Blu

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Power does not equal strong character.

So, you're saying that Jean Grey, the Scarlet Witch, and the Invisible Woman are weak characters? LOL

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Power does not equal strong character.

So, you're saying that Jean Grey, the Scarlet Witch, and the Invisible Woman are weak characters? LOL

Sue Storm is in an incredibly abusive relationship (as often depicted) and has been since forever now.

Most of what I know about Jean Grey is from the 90's animated show which is most of Jean Grey grunting or moaning and not being able to do things. But given the fact her grave has a revolving door on it... Well... Oh and most of what I know about her revolves around her relationship with Scott.

And I don't know that much about Scarlet Witch, most of what I've read was after she was dead (house of M), so I can't really comment on her. Oh but a lot of what I do know about her revolves around her relationship with vision.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Lord Nightmare
Lord Nightmare's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 15:44
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Power does not equal strong character.

Doom laughs at this notion.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Power does not equal strong character.

Doom laughs at this notion.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Power does not equal strong character.

So, you're saying that Jean Grey, the Scarlet Witch, and the Invisible Woman are weak characters? LOL

Yup.
Each of those character have immense power which they frequently lose control of and require the men in their life save them from themselves. It's another example of damseling.

As pointed out by Project, those and most other female characters in comics are defined by their relationship. They are simply an extension of their male counterparts. Remove the female character and the male will continue on. But when you remove the male character the female character requires a drastic change to their motivations and character arc.

If you want examples of strong female characters in comics look to Ms Marvel Kamala Khan, most of the Squirrel Girl series run and a good portion of the Gwenpool stuff. Not surprisingly all recent stuff and in many cases written by women. I would suggest Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn or Supergirl (TV) but those are at best 50-50. Regardless, 3 examples of strong female characters does not mean the others are not a symptom of a larger problem.

Kid Rad
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 31 min ago
Joined: 04/16/2017 - 12:52
Anyway, back to the topic of

Anyway, back to the topic of the in game character creator. Am I the only one who thinks there is something weird about how the hands/arms are configured? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it has something to do with how the wrists are bent, and how the hands curl up in strange ways at a regular interval. If you think about it, when you are sitting at a relaxed pose, with your hands unclenched, your hands should bend outward slightly. For example:

https://imgur.com/H1MGSav

Yet, in the character creator, the character's wrists are arching inward slightly. To me, this looks incredibly unnatural and awkward. Furthermore, his fingers are all spread apart in a claw manner, whereas in a relaxed scenario, your fingers naturally are together.

Am I crazy? Am I the only one who sees this?

Another question: Since it seems we have a working prototype of the chargen, I'm wondering when it will be possible to have some preliminary alpha tests, or are you going right into beta with this, as it says at the end of the video? It would be cool to let some people in the community have access to this to really take it for a spin and see what they can come up with in terms of characters. Also also, what is the status of female characters, are they close to the same state of completion as male characters?

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
In other words, there is no

In other words, there is no pleasing some people. Fair enough. And... Harley? An example of a "strong" female character? Really? An appendage of Joker, and in the definition of an abusive relationship? Your definitions are funny and self-serving, as well as counter-intuitive.

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

In other words, there is no pleasing some people. Fair enough. And... Harley? An example of a "strong" female character? Really? An appendage of Joker, and in the definition of an abusive relationship? Your definitions are funny and self-serving, as well as counter-intuitive.

Harley has been able to stand on her own since her Batman the animated series days. There's an awesome episode where she's trying to go straight, and an awesome episode where she teams up with poison ivy.

I can tell you what Harley's personality is without even mentioning the joker. I can't do the same with Sue Storm.

Also Harley and Mr. J's "relationship" is always viewed in a negative light, except when through Harley's view point but even then sometimes.

I don't think the same statement can be said about Sue's.

Also. Harley's crazy, so her putting up with an abusive relationship makes sense. Sue is supposed to be intelligent, I think, so her continually going back to her abusive relationship, which isn't especially framed as such in most comics, is very poor character writing.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Kid Rad
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 31 min ago
Joined: 04/16/2017 - 12:52
Is there any way you guys

Is there any way you guys could take the discussion of the intricacies of superhero relationships and depiction of women in comic books to the off topic forum? I have some questions that are relevant to the actual thread that will probably get lost in all the off topic chatter.

Also, I don't need 10,000 e-mail updates on a thread I subscribed to when all the responses are completely unrelated to the actual thread. It's pretty annoying actually.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Kid Rad wrote:
Kid Rad wrote:

Is there any way you guys could take the discussion of the intricacies of superhero relationships and depiction of women in comic books to the off topic forum? I have some questions that are relevant to the actual thread that will probably get lost in all the off topic chatter.

To be fair the threads of this forum can usually survive multiple lines of discussion at the same time.

Kid Rad wrote:

Also, I don't need 10,000 e-mail updates on a thread I subscribed to when all the responses are completely unrelated to the actual thread. It's pretty annoying actually.

Well there are settings in your profile to shut those off but they are admittedly a bit flaky at times. *shrugs*

Kid Rad wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks there is something weird about how the hands/arms are configured?

I can see what you're saying and I even agree that the hands/wrists do look slightly "unnatural" to a certain degree. But for a body model that's still in the alpha stages of testing it's not completely horrible.

I suspect some of this has to do with how they implemented the individual finger and wrist animations. I'm sure this is the kind of thing that could (and will) be tweaked/adjusted over the course of continual testing and frankly at this point I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it still looks like that by the time this game launches then it might be worth asking the Devs to seriously look at it for adjustment in a future update.

Kid Rad wrote:

Another question: Since it seems we have a working prototype of the chargen, I'm wondering when it will be possible to have some preliminary alpha tests, or are you going right into beta with this, as it says at the end of the video? It would be cool to let some people in the community have access to this to really take it for a spin and see what they can come up with in terms of characters. Also also, what is the status of female characters, are they close to the same state of completion as male characters?

I'd actually be surprised if the "chargen" wasn't already being alpha tested. I'd assume -any- testing they are doing right now is only with people who directly work for MWM and/or are under very strict NDAs.

As far as the female model goes I thought I read that we'd be seeing more of that in just a few weeks (April timeframe?).

Also as the Devs have told us if things go according to their plans it shouldn't be too much longer (a few months?) before the costume creator is released in some form of open beta.

Obviously all of this is subject to change...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Kid Rad
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 31 min ago
Joined: 04/16/2017 - 12:52
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I suspect some of this has to do with how they implemented the individual finger and wrist animations. I'm sure this is the kind of thing that could (and will) be slightly tweaked/adjusted over the course of continual testing and frankly at this point I wouldn't worry about it too much. If it still looks like that by the time this game launches then it might be worth asking the Devs to seriously look at it for adjustment in a future update.

Very valid point, I hadn't considered that. If they are making very detailed finger and wrist animations, then it could be hard to make it look normal at a resting position.

Quote:

Also as the Devs have told us if things go according to their plans it shouldn't be too much longer (a few months?) before the costume creator is released in some form of open beta.

Obviously all of this is subject to change...

Good to know, looking forward to it!

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

In other words, there is no pleasing some people. Fair enough. And... Harley? An example of a "strong" female character? Really? An appendage of Joker, and in the definition of an abusive relationship? Your definitions are funny and self-serving, as well as counter-intuitive.

Harley has been able to stand on her own since her Batman the animated series days. There's an awesome episode where she's trying to go straight, and an awesome episode where she teams up with poison ivy.

I can tell you what Harley's personality is without even mentioning the joker. I can't do the same with Sue Storm.

Also Harley and Mr. J's "relationship" is always viewed in a negative light, except when through Harley's view point but even then sometimes.

I don't think the same statement can be said about Sue's.

Also. Harley's crazy, so her putting up with an abusive relationship makes sense. Sue is supposed to be intelligent, I think, so her continually going back to her abusive relationship, which isn't especially framed as such in most comics, is very poor character writing.

Your ignorance of a character's personality is far from proof of that character's lack of strength. It is as easy to describe Sue without mentioning Reed as it is to so describe the Thing, the Human Torch, or Dr. Doom, and much easier than to describe Reed without mentioning Sue. Sue has a number of times taken over leadership of the team, very effectively. And she has held together a marriage and motherhood-- something almost NO OTHER comic book character has been able to do, male OR female. And I find the talk of her relationship with Reed being abusive highly unconvincing, considering that, if Reed hit her, both Dr. Doom and Namor would never rest until they had killed him, nor would Ben Grimm or her brother Johnny stand for it, even assuming she didn't handle the situation herself, which is highly unlikely. There may have been some ill-considered storylines in the past few years, as writers look more towards tearing down what came before than telling good stories, but recent weak writing hardly defines a character that's been around, and developing, since the 60s.
Apologies, Kid. I see your point (all of them, actually), and would be glad to end this discussion.

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Also abuse can come in more

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
Whenever I see the FF, my

Whenever I see the FF, my mind goes to the Impossibles from Venture Brothers.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

Shocking Blu

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

In other words, there is no pleasing some people. Fair enough. And... Harley? An example of a "strong" female character? Really? An appendage of Joker, and in the definition of an abusive relationship? Your definitions are funny and self-serving, as well as counter-intuitive.

You are obviously not familiar with the evolution of the Harley Quinn character. It's also telling that the one character you pick to refute is one I specifically say has a spotty record of being portrayed as strong.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Whenever I see the FF, my mind goes to the Impossibles from Venture Brothers.

I do too. I think it's because Christopher McCulloch and Doc Hammer had such a gift for parody. They paid homage to the source material while laying bare its flaws. I particularly love the treatment of Dr. Quymn (with her daughters Nancy and Drew), Captain Sunshine and Baron Werner Ünderbheit.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Kid Rad wrote:
Kid Rad wrote:

Yet, in the character creator, the character's wrists are arching inward slightly. To me, this looks incredibly unnatural and awkward. Furthermore, his fingers are all spread apart in a claw manner, whereas in a relaxed scenario, your fingers naturally are together.
Am I crazy? Am I the only one who sees this?

I think the guy in the character creator is in a more aggressive stance and not a relaxed pose. If anything I would say his shoulders are too far forward and should be back more like here:

If memory serves, we will have a choice of stances so how the character looks in the promo video is unlikely to be the final version we will see.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 22 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
That's probably the idle pose

That's probably the idle pose. We should be having several. The "claw" formation is actually ideal in this instance as it allows viewing each digit individually. I agree it's an odd looking pose though.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

avelworldcreator
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 22 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 12:19
On the "sexist tropes" check

On the "sexist tropes" check on the current Supergirl series (I catch it on Netflix). Competent, functional, female characters that don't depend on any male figures for anything and don't humiliate them or are humiliated BY them. They are treated as human beings that just happen to be female. Their gender is a cosmetic feature that doesn't define their personalities or capabilities outside of male/female relationships. Then there is the current Marvel Jessica Jones series. Being "thought police" about what people like or dislike is not a good path to go down, IMHO.

We are trying to give people the tools to create their imagined characters. What they do with them - as long as it isn't hostile to other players - is up to each individual.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
People can like or dislike

People can like or dislike whatever they do. But with liking a thing you shouldn't blind yourself to the problems of the thing. It's ok that a thing you like isn't perfect. It's ok to admit there are problems with it, you can still like it.

And yes, Jessica Jones is a great show. Would recommend.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
I do see how the wrist/arm

I do see how the wrist/arm area looks a little different than I imagine it should. However, back in the days of youth when working out involved actual dumbbells rather than 12oz curls I can recall the muscles of the arms would hold some odd positions as they slowly relaxed back to a less pumped position. Perhaps this is meant to be as others have said, a more aggressive/pumped up pose. I’m ok with it.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Darth Fez
Darth Fez's picture
Online
Last seen: 11 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 07:53
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Kid Rad wrote:

Yet, in the character creator, the character's wrists are arching inward slightly. To me, this looks incredibly unnatural and awkward. Furthermore, his fingers are all spread apart in a claw manner, whereas in a relaxed scenario, your fingers naturally are together.
Am I crazy? Am I the only one who sees this?

I think the guy in the character creator is in a more aggressive stance and not a relaxed pose. If anything I would say his shoulders are too far forward and should be back more like here:

If memory serves, we will have a choice of stances so how the character looks in the promo video is unlikely to be the final version we will see.

That was my thought when Kid Rad pointed it out. The thing that may be throwing off Kid Rad is that it's not a relaxed, neutral pose.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

desviper
desviper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 58 min 19 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/10/2014 - 00:55
Wake me up when we're talking

Wake me up when we're talking about the Chargen again.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

Avatar by MikeNovember

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

On the "sexist tropes" check on the current Supergirl series (I catch it on Netflix). Competent, functional, female characters that don't depend on any male figures for anything and don't humiliate them or are humiliated BY them. They are treated as human beings that just happen to be female. Their gender is a cosmetic feature that doesn't define their personalities or capabilities outside of male/female relationships. Then there is the current Marvel Jessica Jones series. Being "thought police" about what people like or dislike is not a good path to go down, IMHO.

We are trying to give people the tools to create their imagined characters. What they do with them - as long as it isn't hostile to other players - is up to each individual.

I have my arguments about the Supergirl tv show but I agree that it does give its female characters more depth than most of it's like. And yes the Netflix Jessica Jones series is well done, but it should be noted that both of those shows have women in major story contribution roles. Jessica Jones is in fact developed by Melissa Rosenberg. Thats not to say that men can't write for a female lead, just that the examples show that women are able to make compelling female led superhero stories.

Also, I don't think anyone is trying to get people to change their minds about what they like, just trying to open eyes to some of the problems in the industry.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

That was my thought when Kid Rad pointed it out. The thing that may be throwing off Kid Rad is that it's not a relaxed, neutral pose.

The aggressive idle stance seems more obvious to me in the video when you see the idle animation as the model is manipulated than in the static image Kid used as an example. Then again it could be something less obvious like Lothic hinted at. It could be just the zero setting of the animation rig. Regardless, I still think the models pose isn't finalized and we will see something different when the character creator is finished.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Death of a female character. You mean, death of the loved one. Works for either gender to lose their loved one. People just get upset when it's the female loved one who gets killed. That was always one of the stupid things for people to get upset with. "Oh no! The main character lost their lover! What will the main character do?!"

Damseling a female character. They do it to guys. "Look! The most bad ass member of the team, Wolverine, got his ass kicked once again!"

Called a trope.

What I'm saying is, lots of mediums have good looking characters as the main character. It's not limited to comics. And they sexualize them. Christian, Edward, Jacob...sexualized. Male characters of the story. This isn't a one way thing. It just gets whined about like it is. :p

Killing off a character and killing off a character specifically to give motivation to another character are different things. The latter happens way more frequently to female characters.

Your example of damseling isn't an example of damseling. For that example to work Wolverine would need to be captured then have him do nothing until rescued. Yes it happens sometimes to make characters but it happens far more often to female characters.

These are tropes for a reason. Because they happen all the time. They're directly named for female characters because they happen most often to female characters.

Wow, three examples from two sources. Welp that's it, everyone. Sexism no longer exists. Also from those sources all those characters are... Characters. They're not just defined by their soul trait of being attractive.

That's not an issue with sexism. That's an issue with the hero usually being made male.

No one complained when Peta was made a damsel in distress and given ptsd to motivate Katniss.

Want it to happen less? Then make more stories with female heroes.

Or I guess, make a hero and never have their loved one get made helpless, ever. In fact, have their loved one who has nothing on the hero or the villains, who still manages to escape by doing it all by themself, so the hero of the story is shown to never be needed to do what they're the main character for! :)

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Not an issue of sexism, it's

Not an issue of sexism, it's an issue with the hero usually being male, which is because of sexism. A left over from a time where men were heroes and women were prises to be won.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Is it sexism if no one was

Is it sexism if no one was buying the comic with genders swapped?

Wonder Woman for instance has never sold on the level of such heroes as Batman, Superman, or Spider-Man and she's considered the most well known and popular female super hero in the world. Yet she bombs so much (in the comics, as obviously, her movie did well) in the solo titles, she's been rebooted over and over.

I fail to see the sexism, when a creator in the job to make money, says "This isn't selling, so I'll do this...and omg it sells!"

Now, obviously some forms of a woman as a hero sells. It's worked for movies and books.

Yes, it sucks, when your title doesn't sell or made crappy because they think what the female hero needs to be popular is a pregnancy storyline that goes on for months and talks about all the pains of pregnancy (and then they wonder why the comic didn't sell :p).

Superhero comics started with Superman. So all others after were made off of that. "Oh! That did well, let's copy that!" mentality. Like creators making MMOs!

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
We've been over this multiple

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

ivanhedgehog
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 5 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 11/04/2013 - 12:46
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

Wonder Woman was failing to sell from the beginning. Back when it's reader base was anyone.

New 52? 11th best selling title of the new 52.

And everyone knows Wonder Woman is a comic book character. New titles may need better advertisement, WW is not one of them. World's most known female super hero and all :p

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
I wouldn't be surprised if I

I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into someone who thought she was just from cartoons and merchandise.

If they put half the effort into marketing as they do for merchandise there'd probably be a lot more people reading comics.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
I think they need to get

I think they need to get comics to stop being seen as for kids, little boys, geeky adult men.

They fall into the same trap as cartoons and anime.

Wonder Woman is also a feminist icon, which may or may not hurt her sales. Not to mention her constant reboots, trying to find the right origin for her.

Personally, I love how the movie (and current comics I believe) have her the daughter of Zeus and not actually made of clay (but love how they incorporated it into the movie, with her believing she was made of clay, because of her mom).

ivanhedgehog
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 5 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 11/04/2013 - 12:46
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

then the market will punish them for their mistakes. its a business problem, not a social one.

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

then the market will punish them for their mistakes. its a business problem, not a social one.

To bring up a point, Marvel and DC are both suffering, while independent comic publishers are doing quite well. Valiant for example are experiencing exponential growth.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

then the market will punish them for their mistakes. its a business problem, not a social one.

Oh, cool, so they'll go out of business (or at least go bankrupt again). That's a great thing for comics.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse." In that case, Reed isn't sexist, he's just naturally abusive (by your high-moral-ground definition). I submit the issue of Secret Wars (the original limited series, not the later imitation) where the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on the heroes. The Hulk was holding that mountain up, while Reed worked feverishly to cobble Iron Man's armor, Spider-Man's web-shooters, and some of Hawkeye's arrows into a device to blow a hole in the mountain so they could escape before the Hulk gave out. When Hulk was weakening, Reed insulted him, multiple times, angering him enough to hold the mountain up long enough for their escape attempt to succeed. What an evil bastard, bullying poor Hulk like that, just to make him useful! Shame, shame upon him, for thus saving half the Marvel superheroes of that time period!

Shocking Blu

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

To bring up a point, Marvel and DC are both suffering, while independent comic publishers are doing quite well. Valiant for example are experiencing exponential growth.

Everything's relative. Independent comic publishers may be doing well compared to Marvel and DC only because those two are already long-time established labels that don't have much room to grow bigger at this point. New upstarts always look better while they're basically busy playing a game of catch-up.

It's the same reason why China has recently enjoyed double-digit annual GDP growth rates as compared to the US and the EU. Most of that is because economically speaking China is still working to catch-up to the levels the other major players have already been at for decades - eventually their growth rates will slow down to match the others.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse." In that case, Reed isn't sexist, he's just naturally abusive (by your high-moral-ground definition). I submit the issue of Secret Wars (the original limited series, not the later imitation) where the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on the heroes. The Hulk was holding that mountain up, while Reed worked feverishly to cobble Iron Man's armor, Spider-Man's web-shooters, and some of Hawkeye's arrows into a device to blow a hole in the mountain so they could escape before the Hulk gave out. When Hulk was weakening, Reed insulted him, multiple times, angering him enough to hold the mountain up long enough for their escape attempt to succeed. What an evil bastard, bullying poor Hulk like that, just to make him useful! Shame, shame upon him, for thus saving half the Marvel superheroes of that time period!

I never said Reed was sexist, only that he was a terrible husband who Sue shouldn't put up with.

And yeah, poor Hulk. People kept making him turn into the Hulk get angrier and angrier till he was enough of a danger then the "heroes" shot him into space.

Hulk just want to be left alone!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse." In that case, Reed isn't sexist, he's just naturally abusive (by your high-moral-ground definition). I submit the issue of Secret Wars (the original limited series, not the later imitation) where the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on the heroes. The Hulk was holding that mountain up, while Reed worked feverishly to cobble Iron Man's armor, Spider-Man's web-shooters, and some of Hawkeye's arrows into a device to blow a hole in the mountain so they could escape before the Hulk gave out. When Hulk was weakening, Reed insulted him, multiple times, angering him enough to hold the mountain up long enough for their escape attempt to succeed. What an evil bastard, bullying poor Hulk like that, just to make him useful! Shame, shame upon him, for thus saving half the Marvel superheroes of that time period!

I never said Reed was sexist, only that he was a terrible husband who Sue shouldn't put up with.

And yeah, poor Hulk. People kept making him turn into the Hulk get angrier and angrier till he was enough of a danger then the "heroes" shot him into space.

Hulk just want to be left alone!

That answer shows that, like Hulk, you cannot be reasoned with-- like all those who are determined to be offended, and see the "ism" of their choice in everything, from blatant examples to the way the moon rises on a given day. Very well. A woman who is capable of maintaining the ONLY lasting marriage in the MU, while being one of the most successful superheroines, including, from time-to-time LEADER of Marvel's first and one of the most successful superteams, AND a mother, is a weak person because her husband doesn't spend all his time worshipping at her feet, and has even dared to criticize her when she was taken over by an evil version of herself. I have seen the light.

Shocking Blu

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Everything's relative. Independent comic publishers may be doing well compared to Marvel and DC only because those two are already long-time established labels that don't have much room to grow bigger at this point. New upstarts always look better while they're basically busy playing a game of catch-up.

I think (he can correct me if I am wrong) tyche was talking about how Valiant has been seeing a massive growth in readership since 2015. They even out sold the big two for a few months, but this was due to the fact they got a lot of recognition from a multitude of awards which they capitalized on by releasing collections that sold in brick and mortar book stores instead of just the traditional specialist comic stores.

My personal opinion on why comics are struggling for sales is the same reason why books, magazines and newspapers are struggling. The shift from printed medium to electronic medium.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Everything's relative. Independent comic publishers may be doing well compared to Marvel and DC only because those two are already long-time established labels that don't have much room to grow bigger at this point. New upstarts always look better while they're basically busy playing a game of catch-up.

I think (he can correct me if I am wrong) tyche was talking about how Valiant has been seeing a massive growth in readership since 2015. They even out sold the big two for a few months, but this was due to the fact they got a lot of recognition from a multitude of awards which they capitalized on by releasing collections that sold in brick and mortar book stores instead of just the traditional specialist comic stores.

Again everything's relative. Even if a third-party comic publisher occasionally "outsells" the old-school labels you still have to consider that in relation to overall market share. I don't know the exact numbers but my guess would be that DC and Marvel are still relatively gigantic compared to Valiant market value wise. Get back to me on this once a company like Valiant has managed to produce dozens of blockbuster movies.

Brainbot wrote:

My personal opinion on why comics are struggling for sales is the same reason why books, magazines and newspapers are struggling. The shift from printed medium to electronic medium.

Well that would mostly be their fault then wouldn't it? If their customers are no longer buying paper-based media they should be doing their best to shift over to electronic media ASAP.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Part of Sue Storm's origin

Part of Sue Storm's origin which basically says she is nothing more than eye candy:

Or her need to be protected a few years later:

And how she is treated by Reed Richards:

How she has been berated into thinking she is nothing but an irrational being:

And how she starts buying into it:

Or the ridiculous way marvel tried to turn her from invisible girl to invisible woman (complete with a dismissive response from Reed and a ridiculous over reaction from Sue):

Still more of the dated 'Women should be seen and not heard' attitude from Reed, this time it comes from the 80's:

And an even more recent example of Sue losing control because of her fragile emotions (yet again),:

These are not isolated incidents, the entire run of all the FF series are littered with examples of both Reed Richards being at best a neglectful husband and Sue Storm being an emotional time bomb who is unfit to be a hero.
This would be an interesting aspect of their characters if it was explored further but marvel continues to try and maintain the illusion that Reed Richards is just a forgetful professor type who at his core is a kind loving husband and Sue Storm is a well adjusted person who manages the struggle to balance being a hero, mother and wife with grace and poise.
It's a shame too because Marvel beat the Hank Pym/Janet Van Dyne thing to some decidedly awful results (pun). Which is funny because that Ant-Man/Avenger story was never originally intended to be Hank striking Janet. Originally he was just breaking free of Janet's grasp but a miscommunication between writer and artist forever labeled Hank Pym as an abusive husband.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse." In that case, Reed isn't sexist, he's just naturally abusive (by your high-moral-ground definition). I submit the issue of Secret Wars (the original limited series, not the later imitation) where the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on the heroes. The Hulk was holding that mountain up, while Reed worked feverishly to cobble Iron Man's armor, Spider-Man's web-shooters, and some of Hawkeye's arrows into a device to blow a hole in the mountain so they could escape before the Hulk gave out. When Hulk was weakening, Reed insulted him, multiple times, angering him enough to hold the mountain up long enough for their escape attempt to succeed. What an evil bastard, bullying poor Hulk like that, just to make him useful! Shame, shame upon him, for thus saving half the Marvel superheroes of that time period!

I never said Reed was sexist, only that he was a terrible husband who Sue shouldn't put up with.

And yeah, poor Hulk. People kept making him turn into the Hulk get angrier and angrier till he was enough of a danger then the "heroes" shot him into space.

Hulk just want to be left alone!

That answer shows that, like Hulk, you cannot be reasoned with-- like all those who are determined to be offended, and see the "ism" of their choice in everything, from blatant examples to the way the moon rises on a given day. Very well. A woman who is capable of maintaining the ONLY lasting marriage in the MU, while being one of the most successful superheroines, including, from time-to-time LEADER of Marvel's first and one of the most successful superteams, AND a mother, is a weak person because her husband doesn't spend all his time worshipping at her feet, and has even dared to criticize her when she was taken over by an evil version of herself. I have seen the light.

Uh... Hulk can be reasoned with.

And yeah a women who's written to always forgive Reed no matter how awful a human being he is is written as being very weak. He does a horrible thing, Sue either stands by him or leaves for a bit then comes back.

And I'm sorry if I don't buy that one of the smartest people of the Marvel universe's solution to someone turning evil is to belittle them and then to hit them. Reed is supposed to be smart right?

If Sue was strongly written she'd leave Reed. Take the kids and leave, file for a divorce. She doesn't need him in her life.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Everything's relative. Independent comic publishers may be doing well compared to Marvel and DC only because those two are already long-time established labels that don't have much room to grow bigger at this point. New upstarts always look better while they're basically busy playing a game of catch-up.

I think (he can correct me if I am wrong) tyche was talking about how Valiant has been seeing a massive growth in readership since 2015. They even out sold the big two for a few months, but this was due to the fact they got a lot of recognition from a multitude of awards which they capitalized on by releasing collections that sold in brick and mortar book stores instead of just the traditional specialist comic stores.

Again everything's relative. Even if a third-party comic publisher occasionally "outsells" the old-school labels you still have to consider that in relation to overall market share. I don't know the exact numbers but my guess would be that DC and Marvel are still relatively gigantic compared to Valiant market value wise. Get back to me on this once a company like Valiant has managed to produce dozens of blockbuster movies.

The point that Tyche was trying to make (again correct me if I am wrong), is that while Marvel and DC are bleeding customers, Independent comic companies are growing. He wasn't trying to compare market values or company sizes, just that the big two are losing customers and the smaller ones are getting new customers.
Also(not an argument just a fun fact), many of the independent comic companies has signed deals for multi-picture projects. Valiant just signed a 5 picture deal for example. They are not making these movies themselves of course but then again they are not owned by disney or warner brothers.

Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

My personal opinion on why comics are struggling for sales is the same reason why books, magazines and newspapers are struggling. The shift from printed medium to electronic medium.

Well that would mostly be their fault then wouldn't it? If their customers are no longer buying paper-based media they should be doing their best to shift over to electronic media ASAP.

One way to look at it. Except Marvel and DC have had electronic media for a while now and it just isn't as lucrative as the printed medium despite increased sales in those arenas. The electronic medium is just not as profitable as the hardcopy medium in regards to comics, books and magazines for a whole slew of reasons a google search can explain better than I ever could.

ivanhedgehog
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 5 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 11/04/2013 - 12:46
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

they havent so far, maybe they know thier business better than you do?

then the market will punish them for their mistakes. its a business problem, not a social one.

Oh, cool, so they'll go out of business (or at least go bankrupt again). That's a great thing for comics.

ivanhedgehog
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 5 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 11/04/2013 - 12:46
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

We've been over this multiple times, Brand.

The comics industry has many problems. Not marketing outside of their own readerbase is one of these problems.

you consider them to be problems, others do not. neither you nor those others are bad, you just have differences of opinion.

Ah yes. How could only marketing to an ever shrinking readerbase possibly be bad? It's not like they'll run out of customers, right?

then the market will punish them for their mistakes. its a business problem, not a social one.

Oh, cool, so they'll go out of business (or at least go bankrupt again). That's a great thing for comics.

they havent so far, maybe they know thier business better than you do?

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Ah right, the old "Well it

Ah right, the old "Well it hasn't happened yet so it'll NEVER happen."

Great argument 10/10.

Also Marvel went bankrupt before... So yeah.

Edit: I haven't died yet so I guess I'm immortal. Because nothing that hasn't happened yet can't ever happen.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

The point that Tyche was trying to make (again correct me if I am wrong), is that while Marvel and DC are bleeding customers, Independent comic companies are growing. He wasn't trying to compare market values or company sizes, just that the big two are losing customers and the smaller ones are getting new customers.

For me it's a distinction without consequence. I honestly couldn't care less whether all of the recent "wonderful growth" of the independent comic companies is a result of customers being leeched away from the other existing labels or whether they are simply attracting brand new customers. As we both know it's probably a little bit of both going on regardless.

Brainbot wrote:

Also(not an argument just a fun fact), many of the independent comic companies has signed deals for multi-picture projects. Valiant just signed a 5 picture deal for example. They are not making these movies themselves of course but then again they are not owned by disney or warner brothers.

You know as well as I do that almost everyone signs "movie deals" for everything these days even when many of these deals never produce movies. There were even rights signed for a CoH movie for instance. Again get back to me on this point when these third party movies actually exist in significant numbers.

Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

My personal opinion on why comics are struggling for sales is the same reason why books, magazines and newspapers are struggling. The shift from printed medium to electronic medium.

Well that would mostly be their fault then wouldn't it? If their customers are no longer buying paper-based media they should be doing their best to shift over to electronic media ASAP.

One way to look at it. Except Marvel and DC have had electronic media for a while now and it just isn't as lucrative as the printed medium despite increased sales in those arenas. The electronic medium is just not as profitable as the hardcopy medium in regards to comics, books and magazines for a whole slew of reasons a google search can explain better than I ever could.

I'm aware the big comic book companies have been experimenting with electronic publishing for years now. But obviously when you effectively eliminate the paper media you're basically destroying the future of the collectible after market. You can't really collect intangible digital data in the same way you can collect physical comic books, especially considering that most of the digital media is so tightly controlled to the point where you don't really "own" it as much as "rent" it. Frankly that's the part annoys the crap out of me. *shrugs*

Again it's not the consumers' fault that the technology is rendering the old school media paradigms obsolete. The companies will either adapt to the new realities and give the consumers what they want or die trying. My guess is that even if the comic book companies eventually shift a majority of their business over to digital media there will always be a market for "special limited run" print releases the same way that vinyl records have managed to carve out a niche market for enthusiasts.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
So, the answer to having a

So, the answer to having a little strife in your life is to "take the kids and leave." and that's your notion of what a strong person does? Cut and run in the face of adversity? I guess that says it all, doesn't it? LOL

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

So, the answer to having a little strife in your life is to "take the kids and leave." and that's your notion of what a strong person does? Cut and run in the face of adversity? I guess that says it all, doesn't it? LOL

A little strife? The man is neglectful and a danger to everyone around him. He built a horrific robot Thor which killed someone. He sent the Hulk into space and is partially responsible for killing millions!

Being around Reed isn't a "little strife" it's constant strife.

He's a terrible husband and a pretty awful human being.

But no, the stronger thing in your mind is for Sue to stay with the man who neglects her, is emotionally abusive or dismissive, and is an all round kind of awful person.

So YES the stronger thing to do is to recognize the toxic elements in your life then cut them out of it.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

So, the answer to having a little strife in your life is to "take the kids and leave." and that's your notion of what a strong person does? Cut and run in the face of adversity? I guess that says it all, doesn't it? LOL

A little strife? The man is neglectful and a danger to everyone around him. He built a horrific robot Thor which killed someone. He sent the Hulk into space and is partially responsible for killing millions!

Being around Reed isn't a "little strife" it's constant strife.

He's a terrible husband and a pretty awful human being.

But no, the stronger thing in your mind is for Sue to stay with the man who neglects her, is emotionally abusive or dismissive, and is an all round kind of awful person.

So YES the stronger thing to do is to recognize the toxic elements in your life then cut them out of it.

You might recall that she HAD left him during the events of the Civil War, and did not know about him getting rid of the Hulk. Two storylines which were mistakes of the WRITERS, not the characters, showing the current bias of demonizing, marginalizing, or outright replacing all the white male characters they possibly can. As I noted before, you have your mind made up, and no amount of logic or reason will change it, and that is that males are evil (wonder if you hate yourself, if you're male-- a question for a psychiatrist, no doubt). The fact that such attitudes will only cause further conflict matters nothing.
We're done, as far as I'm concerned.

Shocking Blu

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Right, it was the writers

Right, it was the writers demonizing the white male characters... Which is why, according to the writer of civil war, Tony was right.

But no, it's to demonize the white man. Of course it's all some huge conspiracy that comic companies, who are often jerks to women staff, are trying to demonize men.

Of course.

But you have made up your mind, and no amount of logic, reason, or evidence can change your mind.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Right, it was the writers demonizing the white male characters... Which is why, according to the writer of civil war, Tony was right.

But no, it's to demonize the white man. Of course it's all some huge conspiracy that comic companies, who are often jerks to women staff, are trying to demonize men.

Of course.

But you have made up your mind, and no amount of logic, reason, or evidence can change your mind.

Logic and reason quite often change my mind. You, unfortunately, cannot identify or ap-ply those concepts. So no, you are unlikely to change my mind. Good day. :)

Shocking Blu

Beeker
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 4 hours ago
Joined: 04/06/2015 - 17:30
Well I hope the Chargen gets

Well I hope the Chargen gets another update soon. Or better yet, released. From what I have seen I can make nearly any size or shape within reasonable limits. Flat or large chested. Fat or skeletal. Muscular or toned like a marshmallow.
Yumm... Marshmallows....
Hopefully we can respectfully contribute to the comic genre with humor and tolerance with our daring, digital, do-gooders. Or vengful, virtual, villians...

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
Wow how far off topic can we

Wow how far off topic can we get while demoralizing each other?

Attitudes and accepted norms change over time. Writers often reflect society though they are breaking from that mold somewhat of late. Yes Reed has been a poor quality husband and yes Sue has had weak moments emotionally. This doesn’t negate loving each other. Love exists often despite the flaws our beloveds demonstrate. I’m afraid that is simply part of being human...

Some will see that as weakness others as strength. Likewise they will have strong opinions about how to “balance” the scales of such matters.

Personally I think there are valid arguments for each side however, I’ll never see Sue Richards as a weak person, character, etc nor Will I see Reed as a horrid human. I tend to imagine Reed as a highly functioning Autistic though that is only based on my probable misunderstandings of the term. In this light, yes he is frequently absent of subtlety and tends not to consider the others feelings even his wife’s. He also tends to neglect others until it is brought to his attention in a very dire way. One I might suggest Sue has somewhat adapted to though I doubt many others would view the matter as I do.

So about the Chargen! It’s looking great! Let’s hear one for all the work the devs are putting in! Great work guys!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 18 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

Wow how far off topic can we get while demoralizing each other?

sic

So about the Chargen! It’s looking great! Let’s hear one for all the work the devs are putting in! Great work guys!

Here's your lance, and there's the windmill. Tilt away, friend. Tilt away.

ivanhedgehog
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 5 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 11/04/2013 - 12:46
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also abuse can come in more forms than just physical.

THIS is your example? Reed using psychology to suppress Malice, to bring Susan back to the fore? As well to say that Deadshot "abused" the fireguy in "Suicide Squad", to get him to use his powers. And yes, abuse can come in more forms than physical. Women have been expert at controlling men without ever laying a hand on them for time out of mind. LOL

That is one example, yes. You said if Reed hit her there would be consequences, from other FF members, Namor, Dr. Doom, etc. In the search I found another of him hitting her telling her to "stay out of this" also at least one instance of him hitting one of his kids.

None of these are from modern comics, but I have never seen Richards be anything close to a loving husband even in modern comics.

And yeah, bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse. There were mitigating circumstances there, but yeah. It is abuse. Just because good actions can come from a bad action doesn't stop the action from being bad.

Also you should note that you compared Reed and Sue's relationship or at least that interaction to a group of jerk bad guys. The whole point of the suicide squad is that they're all pretty terrible people, some have a few redeeming qualities, but on the whole they're not good people.

"Bullying someone into being of use to you is abuse." In that case, Reed isn't sexist, he's just naturally abusive (by your high-moral-ground definition). I submit the issue of Secret Wars (the original limited series, not the later imitation) where the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on the heroes. The Hulk was holding that mountain up, while Reed worked feverishly to cobble Iron Man's armor, Spider-Man's web-shooters, and some of Hawkeye's arrows into a device to blow a hole in the mountain so they could escape before the Hulk gave out. When Hulk was weakening, Reed insulted him, multiple times, angering him enough to hold the mountain up long enough for their escape attempt to succeed. What an evil bastard, bullying poor Hulk like that, just to make him useful! Shame, shame upon him, for thus saving half the Marvel superheroes of that time period!

I never said Reed was sexist, only that he was a terrible husband who Sue shouldn't put up with.

And yeah, poor Hulk. People kept making him turn into the Hulk get angrier and angrier till he was enough of a danger then the "heroes" shot him into space.

Hulk just want to be left alone!

That answer shows that, like Hulk, you cannot be reasoned with-- like all those who are determined to be offended, and see the "ism" of their choice in everything, from blatant examples to the way the moon rises on a given day. Very well. A woman who is capable of maintaining the ONLY lasting marriage in the MU, while being one of the most successful superheroines, including, from time-to-time LEADER of Marvel's first and one of the most successful superteams, AND a mother, is a weak person because her husband doesn't spend all his time worshipping at her feet, and has even dared to criticize her when she was taken over by an evil version of herself. I have seen the light.

Uh... Hulk can be reasoned with.

And yeah a women who's written to always forgive Reed no matter how awful a human being he is is written as being very weak. He does a horrible thing, Sue either stands by him or leaves for a bit then comes back.

And I'm sorry if I don't buy that one of the smartest people of the Marvel universe's solution to someone turning evil is to belittle them and then to hit them. Reed is supposed to be smart right?

If Sue was strongly written she'd leave Reed. Take the kids and leave, file for a divorce. She doesn't need him in her life.

just because someone is amazingly smart or strong does not make them good with relationships. some of the most amazing successful people were lousy at interpersonal relationships.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
While true, Sue isn't

While true, Sue isn't especially written that way.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

SavageFist
SavageFist's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 8 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/21/2013 - 22:04
rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

... I’ll never see Sue Richards as a weak person, character, etc nor Will I see Reed as a horrid human....

So about the Chargen! It’s looking great! Let’s hear one for all the work the devs are putting in! Great work guys!

I agree. I have never viewed Sue or Reed as utterly broken or horrible people. They were always heroes to me along with Johnny and Ben.

Yep, the chargen looks great but I'm trying to stay away since after first seeing it, I want to be able to login NOW!

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

Wow how far off topic can we get while demoralizing each other?

Attitudes and accepted norms change over time. Writers often reflect society though they are breaking from that mold somewhat of late. Yes Reed has been a poor quality husband and yes Sue has had weak moments emotionally. This doesn’t negate loving each other. Love exists often despite the flaws our beloveds demonstrate. I’m afraid that is simply part of being human...

Some will see that as weakness others as strength. Likewise they will have strong opinions about how to “balance” the scales of such matters.

Personally I think there are valid arguments for each side however, I’ll never see Sue Richards as a weak person, character, etc nor Will I see Reed as a horrid human. I tend to imagine Reed as a highly functioning Autistic though that is only based on my probable misunderstandings of the term. In this light, yes he is frequently absent of subtlety and tends not to consider the others feelings even his wife’s. He also tends to neglect others until it is brought to his attention in a very dire way. One I might suggest Sue has somewhat adapted to though I doubt many others would view the matter as I do.

So about the Chargen! It’s looking great! Let’s hear one for all the work the devs are putting in! Great work guys!

Precisely. We fall into a trap when we judge people of the past by current norms and behaviors. Thus we assume that a slave-owner in the old South, a medieval executioner, a gladiator games spectator in Rome, or a conqueror of the ancient world were all horrible, evil people. Should we own slaves, draw and quarter people, put people in an arena to fight each other or animals to the death (I'm looking at YOU, bullfighters! LOL), or just randomly invade other lands that aren't bothering anyone and take their stuff? Of course not! Neither should men ignore women, or refer to them as useless, and certainly not hit them (those who have tried any of that with ME, for instance, have not fared well)-- or vice versa. But assuming that those who did these things when it was socially normal to do so is like villifying people who smoked cigarettes back when everyone smoked cigarettes and the health hazards were, while known, not widely focused upon. You might as well look down upon someone from a third world nation who never had electricity for not knowing how to use a computer. It's pointless, and in fact, demeans us, as it reveals our own ignorance of perceived superiority.
And yes, the chargen makes me very excitedly anticipatory of the game release. :)

Shocking Blu

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

So about the Chargen! It’s looking great! Let’s hear one for all the work the devs are putting in! Great work guys!

SavageFist wrote:

Yep, the chargen looks great but I'm trying to stay away since after first seeing it, I want to be able to login NOW!

Mordheim13 wrote:

And yes, the chargen makes me very excitedly anticipatory of the game release. :)

I've got "it" so bad I find myself periodically skimming through random "character creator" vids on YouTube just wondering how much of what I'm seeing there will compare with CoT's character creator. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mordheim13
Mordheim13's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 hours 50 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 13:22
Lothic may well be right

Lothic may well be right about our anticipation of the game leading to frustration, which manifests as lashing out at each other. I don't know; I'm no psychiatrist or psychologist. For my part in perpetuating any such propensity, I do apologize.

Shocking Blu

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 min ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Lothic may well be right about our anticipation of the game leading to frustration, which manifests as lashing out at each other. I don't know; I'm no psychiatrist or psychologist. For my part in perpetuating any such propensity, I do apologize.

Respectfully, I agree but also note this very line of discussion has me imagining a villain I would rather enjoy making once the Chargen is available... I rather adore political incorrectness!

Do not think this thread was for not! There is joy to be had!

All that aside... yeah what you said...😊

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

desviper
desviper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 58 min 19 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/10/2014 - 00:55
oh, the 60s....:p

oh, the 60s....:p

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

Avatar by MikeNovember

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

For me it's a distinction without consequence. I honestly couldn't care less whether all of the recent "wonderful growth" of the independent comic companies is a result of customers being leeched away from the other existing labels or whether they are simply attracting brand new customers. As we both know it's probably a little bit of both going on regardless.

For me it's an important distinction. If customers are leaving one company for another then there must be a reason for it. If one company can't keep it's customers but another is getting people who haven't been a customer of anyone before there must be a reason for it. If the creators from one company leave citing too much editorial involvement and they thrive in a new company then I start to see a picture being painted.
Marvel and DC both have been through these types of cycles many times. In the 70's it was controversial storylines, which they beat to death. In the 80's it was a strong focus on their bankable characters until each of them had more titles than the rest of their line. The 90's was all about collectables with alternate and foil covers being the norm until the market crashed. Now it's ret-cons and massive crossovers that are diving people away. They drive away their customers and talent until they change business plans and try to rebuild what they lost, each time emerging smaller than they were.

Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Also(not an argument just a fun fact), many of the independent comic companies has signed deals for multi-picture projects. Valiant just signed a 5 picture deal for example. They are not making these movies themselves of course but then again they are not owned by disney or warner brothers.

You know as well as I do that almost everyone signs "movie deals" for everything these days even when many of these deals never produce movies. There were even rights signed for a CoH movie for instance. Again get back to me on this point when these third party movies actually exist in significant numbers.

Well, I found it interesting because those deals were signed by DMG, a major stakeholder in Valiant comics. It's a situation very similar to the disney/marvel one and they even state that business model as one they intend to take ideas from. Currently they have signed Jared Leto (not finalized), Vin Diesel and Jason David Frank for various project which are in different stages of development, including filming (mostly second unit stuff like crowds and locations but still). Again, I am not arguing anything with this, just that I found it interesting to see the effect that the current MCU success is having on smaller companies.

Lothic wrote:

I'm aware the big comic book companies have been experimenting with electronic publishing for years now. But obviously when you effectively eliminate the paper media you're basically destroying the future of the collectible after market. You can't really collect intangible digital data in the same way you can collect physical comic books, especially considering that most of the digital media is so tightly controlled to the point where you don't really "own" it as much as "rent" it. Frankly that's the part annoys the crap out of me. *shrugs*

Again it's not the consumers' fault that the technology is rendering the old school media paradigms obsolete. The companies will either adapt to the new realities and give the consumers what they want or die trying. My guess is that even if the comic book companies eventually shift a majority of their business over to digital media there will always be a market for "special limited run" print releases the same way that vinyl records have managed to carve out a niche market for enthusiasts.

To be fair, they haven't been experimenting with it. They have a fully developed and supported platform for electronic media. But it's like you said, the electronic medium really hurts a major selling point of the industry, collecting the physical comics.
Your vinyl example is great. It's an obsolete technology that some prefer over the modern advancements. It's niche and expensive by comparison but still a big enough business that it isn't hard to find what you want on vinyl.
That's all I was saying with my opinion of why comics are struggling. The companies can survive by shifting to a different medium (like the current marvel movies for example) but the printed versions will dwindle until they are the same niche and expensive item that vinyl is.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Online
Last seen: 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

For me it's a distinction without consequence. I honestly couldn't care less whether all of the recent "wonderful growth" of the independent comic companies is a result of customers being leeched away from the other existing labels or whether they are simply attracting brand new customers. As we both know it's probably a little bit of both going on regardless.

For me it's an important distinction. If customers are leaving one company for another then there must be a reason for it. If one company can't keep it's customers but another is getting people who haven't been a customer of anyone before there must be a reason for it. If the creators from one company leave citing too much editorial involvement and they thrive in a new company then I start to see a picture being painted.
Marvel and DC both have been through these types of cycles many times. In the 70's it was controversial storylines, which they beat to death. In the 80's it was a strong focus on their bankable characters until each of them had more titles than the rest of their line. The 90's was all about collectables with alternate and foil covers being the norm until the market crashed. Now it's ret-cons and massive crossovers that are diving people away. They drive away their customers and talent until they change business plans and try to rebuild what they lost, each time emerging smaller than they were.

While I'm sure the details are very important to the "suits" of the various companies involved I PERSONALLY couldn't care less about what's behind the market "churn" you're referring to PRECISELY because of all the ups and downs you cited here in the histories of DC and Marvel. Things go up... things go down.

Perhaps as a simple point of academic curiosity it'll be interesting to see what happens here with the fate of the "big boys" versus "the upstarts". In the long run I just don't have a proverbial "dog" in the outcome either way.

Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Also(not an argument just a fun fact), many of the independent comic companies has signed deals for multi-picture projects. Valiant just signed a 5 picture deal for example. They are not making these movies themselves of course but then again they are not owned by disney or warner brothers.

You know as well as I do that almost everyone signs "movie deals" for everything these days even when many of these deals never produce movies. There were even rights signed for a CoH movie for instance. Again get back to me on this point when these third party movies actually exist in significant numbers.

Well, I found it interesting because those deals were signed by DMG, a major stakeholder in Valiant comics. It's a situation very similar to the disney/marvel one and they even state that business model as one they intend to take ideas from. Currently they have signed Jared Leto (not finalized), Vin Diesel and Jason David Frank for various project which are in different stages of development, including filming (mostly second unit stuff like crowds and locations but still). Again, I am not arguing anything with this, just that I found it interesting to see the effect that the current MCU success is having on smaller companies.

I'm not arguing about this either. It's just that I've read about so many "almost happened" movies (with actors involved and everything) for decades so I've just learned not to care too much them until things -actually- happen.

Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm aware the big comic book companies have been experimenting with electronic publishing for years now. But obviously when you effectively eliminate the paper media you're basically destroying the future of the collectible after market. You can't really collect intangible digital data in the same way you can collect physical comic books, especially considering that most of the digital media is so tightly controlled to the point where you don't really "own" it as much as "rent" it. Frankly that's the part annoys the crap out of me. *shrugs*

Again it's not the consumers' fault that the technology is rendering the old school media paradigms obsolete. The companies will either adapt to the new realities and give the consumers what they want or die trying. My guess is that even if the comic book companies eventually shift a majority of their business over to digital media there will always be a market for "special limited run" print releases the same way that vinyl records have managed to carve out a niche market for enthusiasts.

To be fair, they haven't been experimenting with it. They have a fully developed and supported platform for electronic media. But it's like you said, the electronic medium really hurts a major selling point of the industry, collecting the physical comics.

Since they haven't been able to overcome the core problems of disrupting the collector-based after market I'm still willing to say that the companies involved are still "experimenting" with how to really get the whole digital media thing to work. I realize that's a bit of a quibble on my part but I'm not going to call the thus far incomplete transition to digital media an actual "ready for prime time" thing until, as you yourself point out, they figure out how to STOP losing customers over it.

Brainbot wrote:

Your vinyl example is great. It's an obsolete technology that some prefer over the modern advancements. It's niche and expensive by comparison but still a big enough business that it isn't hard to find what you want on vinyl.
That's all I was saying with my opinion of why comics are struggling. The companies can survive by shifting to a different medium (like the current marvel movies for example) but the printed versions will dwindle until they are the same niche and expensive item that vinyl is.

I can almost envision a time when like a full 95% of the "comic book" business is digitally based but they still print out a few super-high class "collectors editions" of various issues (with of course all sorts of multiple-cover artworks and the like) to satisfy the "hard core collector" market. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Pages