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Discuss: Pre-Alpha Chargen - Make Anyone

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avelworldcreator
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Halae? I've checked. It seems

Halae? I've checked. It seems the answer is "yes". We might have some clipping issues when messing with the finger lengths and such when doing really unusual sizes but, personally, I think it should be up to the players' discretion about how much of those kind of artifacts they can tolerate.

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Hot damn, that's great news

Hot damn, that's great news for unusual body structures. Thanks Avel!

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Halae? I've checked. It seems the answer is "yes". We might have some clipping issues when messing with the finger lengths and such when doing really unusual sizes but, personally, I think it should be up to the players' discretion about how much of those kind of artifacts they can tolerate.

Halae wrote:

Hot damn, that's great news for unusual body structures. Thanks Avel!

Things like that could always be tweaked a few percent either way just to avoid the most overt cases of clipping. Beyond that I agree that the playerbase should be given as much freedom as reasonably possible in these cases.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Well said Lothic. Let's give

Well said Lothic. Let's give it a chance and see. :)

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Seems like a good idea to let

Seems like a good idea to let people have freedoms and remove them if they are irresponsible with them to a harmful degree, rather than just assume irresponsibility.
I still don't see the problem with Silver Age, certainly not its inferiority to some of today's so-called comics. Moon-men? So? At that time we hadn't been to the moon; no one could say for sure what was or wasn't there. And some of the most entertaining reading ever was Edgar Rice Burroughs' "Martian Tales." Or Tarzan, for that matter, despite (or even because of) the constant "lost cities" that were always being found, and the apes that raised him that had little in common with real apes. How is ANY of that any more "silly" than Spider-Man and Mary Jane making a deal with Mephisto to break up their marriage to bring back Aunt May, who was at peace and reunited with Ben Parker? At least Quesada inadvertently got that right when he said, in defense of that storyline "... But I'm an idiot." LOL
Still have to look into Astro City. Busiek, I suspect, can be trusted.

Shocking Blu

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Seems like a good idea to let people have freedoms and remove them if they are irresponsible with them to a harmful degree, rather than just assume irresponsibility.
I still don't see the problem with Silver Age, certainly not its inferiority to some of today's so-called comics. Moon-men? So? At that time we hadn't been to the moon; no one could say for sure what was or wasn't there. And some of the most entertaining reading ever was Edgar Rice Burroughs' "Martian Tales." Or Tarzan, for that matter, despite (or even because of) the constant "lost cities" that were always being found, and the apes that raised him that had little in common with real apes. How is ANY of that any more "silly" than Spider-Man and Mary Jane making a deal with Mephisto to break up their marriage to bring back Aunt May, who was at peace and reunited with Ben Parker? At least Quesada inadvertently got that right when he said, in defense of that storyline "... But I'm an idiot." LOL
Still have to look into Astro City. Busiek, I suspect, can be trusted.

Here is a free ebook version of one of my personal favorite issues (fully legit through comixology)

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I don't want to say these

I don't want to say these fears about the mass of ugly, deformed characters is unfounded, but incredibly unlikely. Because even without sliders, people can do it with costumes. City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC Universe and even Warcraft after they added transmog to the game, all showed a similar pattern. Sure, everyone early in likes to test the limits and make some ridiculous creations, at launch when everyone is early in at once, it can seem excessive. But you play these ugly characters to level 5 while you test things out before going to make more serious characters. Ugly malformed characters are a novelty to play, for 95% if the player base, they aren't the ones who even reach mid-game.

This argument was used for years, specifically in Warcraft against the transmog system. It came out, people had their fun, and after a week most of the player base looked normal again. The longer time went on, the fewer and fewer gaudy players remained. Those that do, either tend to have an eccentric RP personality for the character, or wear mismatched armor specifically to harken back to what their best in slot items were back in vanilla or Burning Crusade.

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

I WAS LITERALLY SEARCHING FOR THIS ONE!!!

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

This actually reminds me... can the tutorial/opening encounter NOT be about aliens? City of Heroes (after free to play), Champions Online and DC Universe ALL open on aliens. If the new wave of games (CoT, SoH, VO) open with aliens it will be meme worthy.

Doctor Tyche
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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

This actually reminds me... can the tutorial/opening encounter NOT be about aliens? City of Heroes (after free to play), Champions Online and DC Universe ALL open on aliens. If the new wave of games (CoT, SoH, VO) open with aliens it will be meme worthy.

Bank robbery. We showed off the bank map awhile back.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

Don't worry! It's been confirmed that the tutorial will be a pretty basic bank robbery. No aliens or anything like that. Something small-scale and literally down-to-earth.

This actually reminds me... can the tutorial/opening encounter NOT be about aliens? City of Heroes (after free to play), Champions Online and DC Universe ALL open on aliens. If the new wave of games (CoT, SoH, VO) open with aliens it will be meme worthy.

"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

Curse you, Doc! You beat me to it.

This actually reminds me... can the tutorial/opening encounter NOT be about aliens? City of Heroes (after free to play), Champions Online and DC Universe ALL open on aliens. If the new wave of games (CoT, SoH, VO) open with aliens it will be meme worthy.

Bank robbery. We showed off the bank map awhile back.

"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."

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Another thing that helps

Another thing that helps reduce the joke character effect is a section of lore that allows strange beings to logically exist. In-game justification for magically-animated mutants, aliens evolved on non-earthlike planets, and alternate universes with entirely different physics (and NPCs that look unusual to match) will go a long way toward inspiring players to think "what kind of cool-looking lifeforms can I make with this" instead of just "let me make something that looks weird just to draw attention".

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Eh, I know you're talking

Eh, I know you're talking about the more absurd appearances, but I do have to admit that "goofy" ones are some of my fondest memories of CoH.

  • The "shake it" panda teleportation taxi squads.
  • The entire brigade of "nacht" parodies.
  • Rian Frostdrake's "holiday fun" costumes (complete with santa hat, "fireworks aura" for July 4th, and the ever-present explanation that plant branch pieces represented Arbor day).
  • The "minions of the nekonomnomicon" - an all catgirl/boy supergroup that spoke only in R'lyehian or lolspeak (full disclosure: I was Hai Preest).
  • The gimp squad creations- where we intentionally made builds that "shouldn't work" and inevitably built real concepts around them like Major HMO the least effective empathy defender the world has ever seen.
  • The space-pirate-amazon-ninja-catgirl-cowboy-robot-i-forget-the-rest-but-we-should-have-probably-stopped-at-SPANCCRs inspired by this game where you were challenged to incorporate as many of the items as possible (while, in theory, making a bio that linked them all... I helped get em started only to get sucked in to RL and never made my own...

Yes, there were many painful appearances and mashups, but every time I winced at them I remind myself that there were probably people that found our all-female 'Dyne overdosers-turned mercenaries supergroup (TrollOps) just as groan-worthy.

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:

Eh, I know you're talking about the more absurd appearances, but I do have to admit that "goofy" ones are some of my fondest memories of CoH.

  • The "shake it" panda teleportation taxi squads.
  • The entire brigade of "nacht" parodies.
  • Rian Frostdrake's "holiday fun" costumes (complete with santa hat, "fireworks aura" for July 4th, and the ever-present explanation that plant branch pieces represented Arbor day).
  • The "minions of the nekonomnomicon" - an all catgirl/boy supergroup that spoke only in R'lyehian or lolspeak (full disclosure: I was Hai Preest).
  • The gimp squad creations- where we intentionally made builds that "shouldn't work" and inevitably built real concepts around them like Major HMO the least effective empathy defender the world has ever seen.
  • The space-pirate-amazon-ninja-catgirl-cowboy-robot-i-forget-the-rest-but-we-should-have-probably-stopped-at-SPANCCRs inspired by this game where you were challenged to incorporate as many of the items as possible (while, in theory, making a bio that linked them all... I helped get em started only to get sucked in to RL and never made my own...

Yes, there were many painful appearances and mashups, but every time I winced at them I remind myself that there were probably people that found our all-female 'Dyne overdosers-turned mercenaries supergroup (TrollOps) just as groan-worthy.

One of my favorite characters (to be reproduced in CoT) was Baby Sister, a 5 or 6 year-old with blonde pigtails pink dress, and barbie backpack (loved it when they added the backpack costume piece!). One of her alternate costumes was a Haloween costume: witches hat (won in Croatoa), toga (won in Cimmerora), I forget which boots, and a white cape with black spots (RPed as a white sheet marked with black marker) which got me asked at least once: "Baby Sister, how many dalmatians died to make that cape?" I only used it in situations where Bea felt it was necessary to go in disguise (not realizing that it was much more noticeable an outfit than her usual outfit!).
Moreover, the warped character is far from unusual in comics. Marvel had Strong Guy, Quasimodo, MODOK, Arnim Zola, and the Inhumans' Alpha Primitives (as a short, far-from-complete list). Not as up on DC but I'm sure they had theirs as well, like maybe Clayface, a Batman foe. Hopefully that won't be the norm (lest later lore updates for the city include there having been illegal experimentation on the city's water-supply, or a bio-bomb set off, or something!), but a bit of it wouldn't be the end of the world. :)

Shocking Blu

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Were these were going to be

Were these were going to be posted on You Tube so people who missed them could watch after Twitch deletes them?

(insert pithy comment here)

avelworldcreator
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I record as I stream. I've

I record as I stream. I've posted on YouTube before. If there is a request for my archives I'm happy to provide them

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My oldest and probably most

My oldest and probably most fun character on CO is a brawler called Battlebeetle. He’s robotic with stubby legs, huge arms and hands, giant round shoulders and a tiny robotic bug-like head. He’s also really short. He’s kind of like a cross between a terminator robot (with no skin, the skeletal kind) and a ladybug.

My concept for him was that he was an advanced housecleaning robot, like an elite AI Roomba, who was given full sentience after a power surge (like Johnny 5 in Short Circuit). His original programming to “Fight Grime” was scrambled and he “cleans up the streets” of criminals, alien invaders, and supervillains. He was originally designed with super strength and super speed because he was meant to do housework quickly.

A joke concept, sure. And very distorted in the character creator. But people love him. I’ve gotten more compliments about him than all my other characters combined. I’d hate if I couldn’t make something similar in CoT.

By the way, if you want to see what a superhero MMO looks like when you constrain body shapes, look at DCUO. Every character looks like the same person wearing different clothes.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

My oldest and probably most fun character on CO is a brawler called Battlebeetle. He’s robotic with stubby legs, huge arms and hands, giant round shoulders and a tiny robotic bug-like head. He’s also really short. He’s kind of like a cross between a terminator robot (with no skin, the skeletal kind) and a ladybug.

My concept for him was that he was an advanced housecleaning robot, like an elite AI Roomba, who was given full sentience after a power surge (like Johnny 5 in Short Circuit). His original programming to “Fight Grime” was scrambled and he “cleans up the streets” of criminals, alien invaders, and supervillains. He was originally designed with super strength and super speed because he was meant to do housework quickly.

A joke concept, sure. And very distorted in the character creator. But people love him. I’ve gotten more compliments about him than all my other characters combined. I’d hate if I couldn’t make something similar in CoT.

By the way, if you want to see what a superhero MMO looks like when you constrain body shapes, look at DCUO. Every character looks like the same person wearing different clothes.

That is an AWESOME concept!

Shocking Blu

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I love the extremes the

I love the extremes the sliders can go to and I fully expect this means were going to be seeing alot of really weird characters when CoT goes live. On a completely unrelated note, I'm currently planning on making a small armed, large handed, mini Santa with a peg leg.

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Santa-Dwarf-Pirate Man?
Mischief wrote:

I love the extremes the sliders can go to and I fully expect this means were going to be seeing alot of really weird characters when CoT goes live. On a completely unrelated note, I'm currently planning on making a small armed, large handed, mini Santa with a peg leg.

Santa-Dwarf-Pirate Man?

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

My oldest and probably most fun character on CO is a brawler called Battlebeetle. He’s robotic with stubby legs, huge arms and hands, giant round shoulders and a tiny robotic bug-like head. He’s also really short. He’s kind of like a cross between a terminator robot (with no skin, the skeletal kind) and a ladybug.

My concept for him was that he was an advanced housecleaning robot, like an elite AI Roomba, who was given full sentience after a power surge (like Johnny 5 in Short Circuit). His original programming to “Fight Grime” was scrambled and he “cleans up the streets” of criminals, alien invaders, and supervillains. He was originally designed with super strength and super speed because he was meant to do housework quickly.

A joke concept, sure. And very distorted in the character creator. But people love him. I’ve gotten more compliments about him than all my other characters combined. I’d hate if I couldn’t make something similar in CoT.

By the way, if you want to see what a superhero MMO looks like when you constrain body shapes, look at DCUO. Every character looks like the same person wearing different clothes.

Scrubots, cleaning Alpha Complex since (Ultraviolet Clearance Only)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Let's give the playerbase a reasonable chance to be "responsible" with the freedoms we may be poised to get with this system. If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.

I'm more of the opinion to start small and slowly give more freedom.
People tend to react harshly when something is taken away from them, even if it is for their own good. And it's nice to read in an update -Hey guys we increased the slider limits for eyebrows this time, feels like we are getting something new all the time.
Still, as much as I hate the goofy for goofy sake characters you see in any games with player generated characters, I doubt those characters would directly have much influence on my enjoyment.

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

I don't want to say these fears about the mass of ugly, deformed characters is unfounded, but incredibly unlikely. Because even without sliders, people can do it with costumes. City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC Universe and even Warcraft after they added transmog to the game, all showed a similar pattern. Sure, everyone early in likes to test the limits and make some ridiculous creations, at launch when everyone is early in at once, it can seem excessive. But you play these ugly characters to level 5 while you test things out before going to make more serious characters. Ugly malformed characters are a novelty to play, for 95% if the player base, they aren't the ones who even reach mid-game.

This argument was used for years, specifically in Warcraft against the transmog system. It came out, people had their fun, and after a week most of the player base looked normal again. The longer time went on, the fewer and fewer gaudy players remained. Those that do, either tend to have an eccentric RP personality for the character, or wear mismatched armor specifically to harken back to what their best in slot items were back in vanilla or Burning Crusade.

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

This totally nails it!
More options are always better so long as they don’t break the game. Novelty doesn’t have to be ugly or ridiculous but thankfully those both tend to weed themselves out.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Good point, Brainbot. Weird

Good point, Brainbot. Weird-looking characters probably won't be any worse than some of the names people come up with. Is it any harder to take serious a team with a long-legged, small-headed, armless hero than it is to take seriously a team-up with "Stabby McStabalot, the Stabber of Stablinski"? Just let people be people, and try to ignore what you don't like. After all, who knows what you might have for them to ignore?

Shocking Blu

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Can I give my guy one tiny

Can I give my guy one tiny little baby arm and one giant manly arm?

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Let's not forget if you

Let's not forget if you ignore someone's global handle over one of their joke characters, you'll also be ignoring them on regular ones. That guy running around as The Boss Baby you loath could also be the hero that's hosting the popular weekly costume contest on Captain Freem.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
McJigg wrote:
Halae wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Yes, I imagine the first week of City of Titans is going to have a lot of horrors running around. But like City of Heroes, after a short while the wave of horrors dissipate, what horrors remain are of lower level and we can start to see some stunning design from costume contests.

You just reminded me of a comic from the better part of a decade ago, so I had to go and dig it up to share.

Basically, though, any sort of "awful" body is only going to happen briefly. Joke characters like this don't last long. After the launch is over, people will settle into what they think looks cool, rather than what they think looks funny.

So it's like the heroes tutorial is going to be stopping a bank robbery and the villains tutorial is going to be doing one?
This actually reminds me... can the tutorial/opening encounter NOT be about aliens? City of Heroes (after free to play), Champions Online and DC Universe ALL open on aliens. If the new wave of games (CoT, SoH, VO) open with aliens it will be meme worthy.

Bank robbery. We showed off the bank map awhile back.

Mordheim13
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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Let's not forget if you ignore someone's global handle over one of their joke characters, you'll also be ignoring them on regular ones. That guy running around as The Boss Baby you loath could also be the hero that's hosting the popular weekly costume contest on Captain Freem.

Oh, I didn't mean "put them on Ignore." That's kinda overreacting. I mean, just ignore the character. Don't react to it, and don't let it "ruin your experience." Maybe just be like "Well that's a hell of a thing," and move on. :)

Shocking Blu

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Let's give the playerbase a reasonable chance to be "responsible" with the freedoms we may be poised to get with this system. If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.

I'm more of the opinion to start small and slowly give more freedom.
People tend to react harshly when something is taken away from them, even if it is for their own good. And it's nice to read in an update -Hey guys we increased the slider limits for eyebrows this time, feels like we are getting something new all the time.
Still, as much as I hate the goofy for goofy sake characters you see in any games with player generated characters, I doubt those characters would directly have much influence on my enjoyment.

Yes I would normally agree that it's easier for the Devs of a game like this "to give more" to players than "to take away" from players. Obviously players don't whine too much whenever they are getting more things to play with.

But the specific situation we're talking about here is whether or not letting players have more freedom with the character creator sliders would -actually- be a problem in the first place. If players are never given the ability to potentially abuse the system to start with then how would we ever know when (or even if) the Devs should give us that freedom? Frankly if we were playing this game for a year or two and then were suddenly told by the Devs "OK we'll increase the eyebrow slider limit because we now think you can now handle the responsibility without going crazy with it" I would consider that amazingly frustrating and/or ridiculous.

Unfortunately (for the point you're trying to make here) this is a counter-intuitive case where the game needs to start out with the sliders on the edge of being too extreme and live with the ever-present possibility of having them nerfed back later on. If the Devs don't risk this from the very beginning when would they ever be able to decide when would be a good time to give it a chance later on?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Let's give the playerbase a reasonable chance to be "responsible" with the freedoms we may be poised to get with this system. If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.

I'm more of the opinion to start small and slowly give more freedom.
People tend to react harshly when something is taken away from them, even if it is for their own good. And it's nice to read in an update -Hey guys we increased the slider limits for eyebrows this time, feels like we are getting something new all the time.
Still, as much as I hate the goofy for goofy sake characters you see in any games with player generated characters, I doubt those characters would directly have much influence on my enjoyment.

Yes I would normally agree that it's easier for the Devs of a game like this "to give more" to players than "to take away" from players. Obviously players don't whine too much whenever they are getting more things to play with.

But the specific situation we're talking about here is whether or not letting players have more freedom with the character creator sliders would -actually- be a problem in the first place. If players are never given the ability to potentially abuse the system to start with then how would we ever know when (or even if) the Devs should give us that freedom? Frankly if we were playing this game for a year or two and then were suddenly told by the Devs "OK we'll increase the eyebrow slider limit because we now think you can now handle the responsibility without going crazy with it" I would consider that amazingly frustrating and/or ridiculous.

Unfortunately (for the point you're trying to make here) this is a counter-intuitive case where the game needs to start out with the sliders on the edge of being too extreme and live with the ever-present possibility of having them nerfed back later on. If the Devs don't risk this from the very beginning when would they ever be able to decide when would be a good time to give it a chance later on?

To add to that that to find the "final" point to extend the sliders to MWM would have to essentially cross it and then take it back one or two steps so the final changes would still be an act of taking away from the players.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But the specific situation we're talking about here is whether or not letting players have more freedom with the character creator sliders would -actually- be a problem in the first place.

Thats the specific situation you are talking about. I am talking about the merits of having something taken away after a problem occurs vs slowly giving something to guard against the problem occurring in the first place.

Lothic wrote:

Frankly if we were playing this game for a year or two and then were suddenly told by the Devs "OK we'll increase the eyebrow slider limit because we now think you can now handle the responsibility without going crazy with it" I would consider that amazingly frustrating and/or ridiculous.

Unfortunately (for the point you're trying to make here) this is a counter-intuitive case where the game needs to start out with the sliders on the edge of being too extreme and live with the ever-present possibility of having them nerfed back later on. If the Devs don't risk this from the very beginning when would they ever be able to decide when would be a good time to give it a chance later on?

If I may, the unfortunate part is that I wasn't clear with my opinion. In my effort to be succinct I included a 'this time eyebrows' statement which implied only one dial each update. This was not what I had in mind. Let me explain it better.

By starting with a set of dials that limit how disproportionate a character can be you ensure that the majority of player created characters are not visually jarring to the widest range of people. If the game releases with the norm of comically disproportionate character the precedent is set and it becomes an uphill battle to change perception. To be clear, I am not making a judgement of what is acceptable or not, just that a disproportionate player character next to the proportionate NPCs of the game world can be jarring. The stylized characters of 'Overwatch' would be visually anachronistic next to the more realistic characters of 'PUBg'.
Once the precedent that devs want is set in the critics and the general publics mind (a month or two after release at most barring unforeseen events), those limits can be relaxed over time. This isn't just 'eyebrows this time' and 'lips in 6 months', its all dials getting relaxed at once in incremental steps.
This allows the devs to watch and see just how much each incremental step of relaxed limits affects the players creations and can easily hold off the next step or in extreme cases pull back a step or two. This is much easier for a player base to accept than a wide ranging nerf (to use your word) of the character creator because it would be a smaller, less noticable nerf. It also gives the devs a much easier time in controlling public perception of their games population.
If the devs decide they have reached the highest limit of a dial they can stop adjusting that one while still adjusting all the others.

I just don't agree that the best option is to react after a problem occurs, even if it is unlikely to happen.
I don't want my third character to be created with a hamstrung builder when my others had complete freedom just because a portion of the population think 'Baby Arms McGee' is a great character concept.

As I said before, I doubt the goofy for goofy's sake character will have much direct impact on my enjoyment but if they do indirectly cause problems then I would prefer my way over yours.

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One good reason to allow the

One good reason to allow the extreme sliders is if the game allows (as CoX did, for multiple costume slots. That way you could have a stretchy type character even if the powerset isn't available. CoX never made it available because of problems with graphics (at least that's whayt they said), just like Growth or Shrinking. Multiple costume slots let us get around those two by making smaller alts and bigger alts to give the impression of Growing/Shrinking. You could do the same for a Mr. Fantastic/Plasticman/Elongated Man type toon by making alternate costumes with "warped" features.
I'm all about the RP, which is one reason I am totally ambivalent, at best, regarding PVP.

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Why are there so many people

Why are there so many people against fun on these forums? (Not just this thread.)
You guys need to remember that this game isn't being made just for you, if people want to make silly characters let them!
There's no reason to get so sensitive about it.

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I'm in the let the sliders be

I'm in the let the sliders be as extreme as they can be camp.

It would kinda suck to have to wait months, years, or whatever to make your weird freaky alien character.

You know instead of having to do an old school sci-fi thing of just "human-but" aliens. (Human but green, human but with antenna, human but purple and pointy ears, etc)

Hopefully in addition to crazy sliders we can get some other non-human parts to the creator, weird shaped heads, hands with less or more fingers, those legs that bend backwards, head tendrils, strange feet, all that good stuff.

Edit: edited to fix a typo.

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Brains-in-jars... Or would

Brains-in-jars... Or would that be too "Silver Age silly"? LOL

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Aw man, I really hope that's
Mordheim13 wrote:

Brains-in-jars... Or would that be too "Silver Age silly"? LOL

Aw man, I really hope that's a costume option.

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Beef Ninja wrote:
Beef Ninja wrote:

Why are there so many people against fun on these forums? (Not just this thread.)
You guys need to remember that this game isn't being made just for you, if people want to make silly characters let them!
There's no reason to get so sensitive about it.

They're not against fun.

They're against people ruining their fun :p

Diaper Man, is the type of character that tends to ruin my fun just a bit, for instance. :p

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Brains-in-jars... Or would that be too "Silver Age silly"? LOL

Nah, that's a comic book trope. Fully encouraged.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But the specific situation we're talking about here is whether or not letting players have more freedom with the character creator sliders would -actually- be a problem in the first place.

Thats the specific situation you are talking about. I am talking about the merits of having something taken away after a problem occurs vs slowly giving something to guard against the problem occurring in the first place.

Again I would argue there needs to be a determination whether there would be "a problem" here in the first place. Why over-correct for something when it's not clear the problem is going to exist in the first place?

I realize this is sort of a variation of the "Chicken and the Egg" scenario and again I agree that most of the time it's better for the Devs to add capability instead of taking it away. Still in particular THIS case we truly need to PROVE there's a problem FIRST before we REACT to it. You seem to think there's -already- a problem here and I would simply disagree with that given the simple premise that this game is not going to instantly appear out of thin air without being extensively tested first.

Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Frankly if we were playing this game for a year or two and then were suddenly told by the Devs "OK we'll increase the eyebrow slider limit because we now think you can now handle the responsibility without going crazy with it" I would consider that amazingly frustrating and/or ridiculous.

Unfortunately (for the point you're trying to make here) this is a counter-intuitive case where the game needs to start out with the sliders on the edge of being too extreme and live with the ever-present possibility of having them nerfed back later on. If the Devs don't risk this from the very beginning when would they ever be able to decide when would be a good time to give it a chance later on?

If I may, the unfortunate part is that I wasn't clear with my opinion. In my effort to be succinct I included a 'this time eyebrows' statement which implied only one dial each update. This was not what I had in mind. Let me explain it better.

By starting with a set of dials that limit how disproportionate a character can be you ensure that the majority of player created characters are not visually jarring to the widest range of people. If the game releases with the norm of comically disproportionate character the precedent is set and it becomes an uphill battle to change perception. To be clear, I am not making a judgement of what is acceptable or not, just that a disproportionate player character next to the proportionate NPCs of the game world can be jarring. The stylized characters of 'Overwatch' would be visually anachronistic next to the more realistic characters of 'PUBg'.
Once the precedent that devs want is set in the critics and the general publics mind (a month or two after release at most barring unforeseen events), those limits can be relaxed over time. This isn't just 'eyebrows this time' and 'lips in 6 months', its all dials getting relaxed at once in incremental steps.
This allows the devs to watch and see just how much each incremental step of relaxed limits affects the players creations and can easily hold off the next step or in extreme cases pull back a step or two. This is much easier for a player base to accept than a wide ranging nerf (to use your word) of the character creator because it would be a smaller, less noticable nerf. It also gives the devs a much easier time in controlling public perception of their games population.
If the devs decide they have reached the highest limit of a dial they can stop adjusting that one while still adjusting all the others.

I just don't agree that the best option is to react after a problem occurs, even if it is unlikely to happen.
I don't want my third character to be created with a hamstrung builder when my others had complete freedom just because a portion of the population think 'Baby Arms McGee' is a great character concept.

As I said before, I doubt the goofy for goofy's sake character will have much direct impact on my enjoyment but if they do indirectly cause problems then I would prefer my way over yours.

I think this concern you have here is simply one of trusting whether the Devs of CoT will be "initially reasonable" with their slider settings in the first place.

You seem to think I'm advocating that they allow the character creation sliders to be set to overtly ridiculous extremes as Step Number One for the day of launch and then be forced to nerf them back by significant amounts after launch thus causing the PR backlashes you're apparently fearing. This is NOT what I'm suggesting the Devs do here at all.

Instead what I'm suggesting is they start off with reasonable guessimations of what might be "nearly too far" settings for initial testing purposes. We all know this game (and by extension the character creator) is going to be heavily tested for months before the game launches. By starting off with semi-aggressive slider settings they can gain plenty of feedback from the playerbase during testing and perform the necessary tweaks during this time period. Obviously the presumption is that by the time the game actually launches most (if not all) of the sliders will be at the point where they will be acceptably "on the edge" of being too wide without quite going over the edge of collective acceptability.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But the specific situation we're talking about here is whether or not letting players have more freedom with the character creator sliders would -actually- be a problem in the first place.

Thats the specific situation you are talking about. I am talking about the merits of having something taken away after a problem occurs vs slowly giving something to guard against the problem occurring in the first place.

Again I would argue there needs to be a determination whether there would be "a problem" here in the first place. Why over-correct for something when it's not clear the problem is going to exist in the first place?

As I said, I am not arguing the probability of this happening, that is your point and I have nothing to add on it. I am simply voicing my opposition to the idea that we can always fix it later. I detest that kind of thinking. Today is always yesterdays tomorrow.

Lothic wrote:

I realize this is sort of a variation of the "Chicken and the Egg" scenario and again I agree that most of the time it's better for the Devs to add capability instead of taking it away. Still in particular THIS case we truly need to PROVE there's a problem FIRST before we REACT to it. You seem to think there's -already- a problem here and I would simply disagree with that given the simple premise that this game is not going to instantly appear out of thin air without being extensively tested first.

I don't think there is a problem. I have said it twice before and now I say it for the third time.

Lothic wrote:

I think this concern you have here is simply one of trusting whether the Devs of CoT will be "initially reasonable" with their slider settings in the first place.

You seem to think I'm advocating that they allow the character creation sliders to be set to overtly ridiculous extremes as Step Number One for the day of launch and then be forced to nerf them back by significant amounts after launch thus causing the PR backlashes you're apparently fearing. This is NOT what I'm suggesting the Devs do here at all.

Instead what I'm suggesting is they start off with reasonable guessimations of what might be "nearly too far" settings for initial testing purposes. We all know this game (and by extension the character creator) is going to be heavily tested for months before the game launches. By starting off with semi-aggressive slider settings they can gain plenty of feedback from the playerbase during testing and perform the necessary tweaks during this time period. Obviously the presumption is that by the time the game actually launches most (if not all) of the sliders will be at the point where they will be acceptably "on the edge" of being too wide without quite going over the edge of collective acceptability.

This is a departure from your earlier opinion of 'wait and see'. We may have different ideas of how the devs could act preventative in regard to the builder, you think it can all be handled in testing while I, being more cautious and meticulous, think slowing down is better. But we both seem to agree that safegaurding before is better than fixing later.
I don't really have anything more to say on the subject.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

As I said, I am not arguing the probability of this happening, that is your point and I have nothing to add on it.

I'm raising the notion of the "probability of this becoming a problem" because it directly relates to your premise that the Devs need to be overtly hyper-conservative about their character slider settings. I suspect the chances that the Devs would ever leave the sliders at a point the majority feels are "too wide" is very vanishingly small.

Brainbot wrote:

I am simply voicing my opposition to the idea that we can always fix it later. I detest that kind of thinking. Today is always yesterdays tomorrow.

I'm sorry you "detest" that kind of thinking but in this particular case the "can always fix it later" phase was clearly always going to be prior to launch regardless. Did you seriously think that once the Devs established the slider thresholds for the first time that they would never be tinkered with again before the game launched?

I would simply rather the Devs not waste their time incrementally inching their way towards more liberal slider settings when the guiding mantra of the game is to provide as MUCH character customization freedom as possible. Let the Devs start out overly ambitious and then have to reduce the slider spectrums only (and I stress only) when it's irrefutably demonstrated (again during testing) that it's absolutely necessary.

Brainbot wrote:

I don't think there is a problem. I have said it twice before and now I say it for the third time.

Then what's your desire to avoid arguably "aggressive" slider settings that would allow characters which (perhaps in your subjective opinion) would "have influence on your enjoyment"? Do you really have so little faith in the Devs not to keep this under reasonable control? If a year (or more) of beta testing doesn't handle your concern this game will deserve to fail.

Brainbot wrote:

This is a departure from your earlier opinion of 'wait and see'.

Actually it's not. As someone who's been a software engineer for decades I tend to assume that proper increment and system testing is a universal given that doesn't need to be specifically mentioned and I also (perhaps wrongly) assumed that point is inherently obvious to everyone else as well. I'm sorry you were misled to think I wanted the Devs to absentmindedly "wait and see" what was going to happen with this, especially at a point AFTER this game's launch.

Brainbot wrote:

We may have different ideas of how the devs could act preventative in regard to the builder, you think it can all be handled in testing while I, being more cautious and meticulous, think slowing down is better. But we both seem to agree that safegaurding before is better than fixing later.

I don't assume something like this can be 100% totally calibrated in pre-launch testing. Obviously bugs/design changes always occur in a MMO after launch.

But again in this case if the Devs do their job to even a semi-satisfactory degree they will have the final character slider thresholds figured out to at least 99% of their final positions. There will be absolutely no need for them to be unnecessarily "cautious and meticulous" about this after launch because roughly a year (or more) worth of tweaking in this area should be more than enough to get things essentially where they will remain for the duration.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Might as well concede,

Might as well concede, Brainbot. Lothic won't let it go at "we'll agree to disagree." LOL

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It occurs to me that for any

It occurs to me that for any slider, you have to define minimum and maximum travel for that slider. Or to think about it differently, if you have an "average" or "normal" size for the thing in question, you must then define how far away from that your slider can actually go, both in the "longer" and in the "shorter" directions.

The deviation from average slider might not be symmetric. That is, the amount of maximum travel away from average in the "longer"direction will not necessarily be the same as the maximum travel in the "shorter" direction, for obvious reasons. You can only go "shorter" until you end at "zero length" then the "shorter" slider can't, or shouldn't go any further. On the other hand, the "longer" side of the slider could, theoretically, go to infinity (but NOT beyond, that's just silly).

Clearly we don't want people to be able to make hands so large they take up 50% of the total outdoor volume of the city. I'd go as far as to say we don;t want to be able to make hands so small they disappear altogether either.

Somewhere inbetween those ridiculous extrema lies the "Goldilocks zone" of reasonable slider travel. That's going to be different for different sliders, and it's going to be a judgement call to get it "right" for each one, but I expect the devs to make it about right.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Might as well concede, Brainbot. Lothic won't let it go at "we'll agree to disagree." LOL

If I simply "let things go" I probably wouldn't have posted anything to this webpage since sometime back in 2015... ;)

P.S. For what it's worth I actually do generally agree with Brainbot's basic premise that it's usually easier (from a PR point of view) for Devs to add capability to a game than to have to nerf it back. I simply realize that axiom doesn't apply 100% of the time - sometimes it's far quicker/easier for the Devs to "overshoot" a mark and then work it back in order to know just how far they can reasonably go and still maintain acceptable functionality. Realistically even if they "inched" the slider settings forward as Brainbot suggested they'd eventually get to a point where they "went too far" and would have to back it up at least once for the final settings so some kind of "nerfing" is inevitable. I'd rather that nerfing happen during beta testing than X years after the game has launched.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Might as well concede, Brainbot. Lothic won't let it go at "we'll agree to disagree." LOL

If I simply "let things go" I probably wouldn't have posted anything to this webpage since sometime back in 2015... ;)

P.S. For what it's worth I actually do generally agree with Brainbot's basic premise that it's usually easier (from a PR point of view) for Devs to add capability to a game than to have to nerf it back. I simply realize that axiom doesn't apply 100% of the time - sometimes it's far quicker/easier for the Devs to "overshoot" a mark and then work it back in order to know just how far they can reasonably go and still maintain acceptable functionality. Realistically even if they "inched" the slider settings forward as Brainbot suggested they'd eventually get to a point where they "went too far" and would have to back it up at least once for the final settings so some kind of "nerfing" is inevitable. I'd rather that nerfing happen during beta testing than X years after the game has launched.

I've come to the conclusion that my contributions to these debates could just be "I agree with Lothic"

My memory's a bit hazy, but I suspect my CoH forum self would have been terrified by this development...

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Might as well concede, Brainbot. Lothic won't let it go at "we'll agree to disagree." LOL

If I simply "let things go" I probably wouldn't have posted anything to this webpage since sometime back in 2015... ;)

P.S. For what it's worth I actually do generally agree with Brainbot's basic premise that it's usually easier (from a PR point of view) for Devs to add capability to a game than to have to nerf it back. I simply realize that axiom doesn't apply 100% of the time - sometimes it's far quicker/easier for the Devs to "overshoot" a mark and then work it back in order to know just how far they can reasonably go and still maintain acceptable functionality. Realistically even if they "inched" the slider settings forward as Brainbot suggested they'd eventually get to a point where they "went too far" and would have to back it up at least once for the final settings so some kind of "nerfing" is inevitable. I'd rather that nerfing happen during beta testing than X years after the game has launched.

I've come to the conclusion that my contributions to these debates could just be "I agree with Lothic"

My memory's a bit hazy, but I suspect my CoH forum self would have been terrified by this development...

It should be.

It should be.

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chase wrote:
chase wrote:

I've come to the conclusion that my contributions to these debates could just be "I agree with Lothic"

My memory's a bit hazy, but I suspect my CoH forum self would have been terrified by this development...

If it makes you feel any better your otherwise mind-blowing "conclusion" here terrifies me as well. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Finally, some agreement.

Finally, some agreement. Lothic even managed to admit that someone else had a point. PROGRESS! :D

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Finally, some agreement. Lothic even managed to admit that someone else had a point. PROGRESS! :D

Oh I've never said other people don't have their own positions on things. I just sometimes don't agree with them. STATUS QUO! :D

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm sorry you "detest" that kind of thinking but in this particular case the "can always fix it later" phase was clearly always going to be prior to launch regardless. Did you seriously think that once the Devs established the slider thresholds for the first time that they would never be tinkered with again before the game launched?

It was not 'clearly' going to be prior to launch in you original statement.
I would prefer beta to be used for stress/exploit/conflict and compatability testing, not to see if those who got into a closed beta make odd characters or not.
You know damn well that the kinds of people who regularly test a game during a non-early access beta are less likely to be the ones who make goofy for goofy's sake characters, that will be the general playerbase. And they will not get the chance until after release. You yourself made this assertion as I will show below.

Lothic wrote:

I would simply rather the Devs not waste their time incrementally inching their way towards more liberal slider settings when the guiding mantra of the game is to provide as MUCH character customization freedom as possible.

When did that become the guiding mantra? I thought it was to give the lost souls of CoH a new home. Regardless, I am glad thats the way you feel. I don't.

Lothic wrote:

Then what's your desire to avoid arguably "aggressive" slider settings that would allow characters which (perhaps in your subjective opinion) would "have influence on your enjoyment"? Do you really have so little faith in the Devs not to keep this under reasonable control? If a year (or more) of beta testing doesn't handle your concern this game will deserve to fail.

I don't know where you come up with this complete reversal of my statement.

Lothic wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

This is a departure from your earlier opinion of 'wait and see'.

Actually it's not. As someone who's been a software engineer for decades I tend to assume that proper increment and system testing is a universal given that doesn't need to be specifically mentioned and I also (perhaps wrongly) assumed that point is inherently obvious to everyone else as well. I'm sorry you were misled to think I wanted the Devs to absentmindedly "wait and see" what was going to happen with this, especially at a point AFTER this game's launch.

You can try and re-write history but my initial opposition was to your statement that said 'If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.' Especially when you specifically said this right before:

Lothic wrote:

But the real proof of the pudding will be to see how many people create and play silly/trollish characters once the game actually launches.

This is why I said it was a departure. I would hope now there would be a condescension free apology.

But it seems I need to be ultra clear in my position.
I don't think there is going to be a problem with the builder as it has been shown thus far. But, if the devs do expect proportional issues to arise then my preference is for them to start more conservatively and incrementally increase the sliders over the first updates as opposed to starting at what they feel the maximum should be and trying to reign things in later.

That's it. My opinion is that 'only if the devs expect an issue' and that 'the devs back off from the max as much as they feel they should'. I am not suggesting anything specific, or even suggesting an action need be taken. I have set no time frame or made any specific slider limit suggestion.
Simply that if the devs feel action is needed they go slow.

Can we be done now?

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Can we be done now?

Why do you keep responding to me about this if you want to be done? Remember you started this particular line of quibbling in the first place. *shrugs*

The idea that the Devs should wait to handle something "slowly and methodically" in post-launch updates that should actually be completely resolved during pre-launch beta testing is unequivocally ridiculous. You can pretend I'm "flip-flopping" or "trying to change the subject" by telling you this now but I didn't bother to bring these points up in my initial posts only based on the simple presumption that "tweaking this during beta testing" should have been completely and totally obvious to everyone. I'm sorry I apparently had to spell that out in so many words/posts.

I get that you're seemingly worried (paranoid?) that the Devs will simplemindedly set these sliders to be off-the-chart hyper-extreme from Square One AND for some irrational reason not do anything about it until it's too late. I simply don't think the Devs of CoT are going to that allow that to happen - what evidence do you have to justify your apparent fears that they would?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I warned you, Brainbot. Do

I warned you, Brainbot. Do NOT expect a "condescension free" anything from Lothic. It comes with the Maleficent icon (which is awesome, by the way-- she is my all-time favorite villain). :D

Shocking Blu

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I am politely defending my

I am politely defending my opinion and asking for a civil end to the conversation. We have fallen into a 'repeat arguments with new words' type of conversation and it has become pointless.
So about that apology?

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Good luck with that. ::makes

Good luck with that. ::makes popcorn and watches avidly::

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I am politely defending my opinion and asking for a civil end to the conversation. We have fallen into a 'repeat arguments with new words' type of conversation and it has become pointless.

The only "forum vice" I really tend to have is when people keep responding to me I tend to reciprocate regardless. I also like tennis IRL so you can see the motif I'm alluding to...

You started this... you can easily finish it.

Brainbot wrote:

So about that apology?

So you want me to apologize to you for not agreeing with you? I must admit that literally made me LOL...

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

It comes with the Maleficent icon (which is awesome, by the way-- she is my all-time favorite villain). :D

Yeah for what it's worth I'm happy they're working on a sequel to the 2014 Maleficent movie. Even as a big fan I didn't think it was the "best" movie ever made but at least it was a role that Jolie was practically born to play:

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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You two might take this

You two might take that discussion to PMs and leave the rest of us out of it.

Of course, one might say that part of the motivation for argumentation is to 'win' in front of an audience of your peers. All I can say is that This peer has learned to recognize the argument as irrelevant and I just skim past it, so there's nothing to 'win', here.

*
As for the actual subject of the thread, I'm excited about the Character Generator. I worry about some of the 'sins' of the old Character Generator being replicated, but I'm mollified by the understanding that the MWM Devs Remember those sins and have no reason to repeat them.

I refer to things like:

* A color-picker where the colors sometimes weren't that different from each other and the actual colors I Wanted were not available. I distinctly recall being able to choose from a dozen shades of 'muddy green-brown'. Also, colors were often inconsistent between the Character Generator and 'live' - often because the Lighting was different in each place.
* Inconsistent or missing textures - I have screenshots showing that the default hand-skin did not match the arm it was 'attached to'. There were textures that could be applied to hands or feet which did not exist for the legs or torso.
* Horrid foot modeling, where 'bare' feet were drawn over a 'high-heel' model, producing a 'Liefeld' effect. Later boot models flipped the other way, producing giant, gnarly feet because they did not scale correctly with body/model size-sliders.
* Ridiculous clipping/not-clipping issues, where costume pieces didn't respond to body/model sliders and often produced huge 'air-gaps' - I have pictures!
* Improperly anchored accessories, which would 'tear away' from a moving character and kite along behind on invisible strings - Bat Wings - I have Pictures.
* One's head could be sized to clip through both hair And hats - pictures.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

You two might take that discussion to PMs and leave the rest of us out of it.

Of course, one might say that part of the motivation for argumentation is to 'win' in front of an audience of your peers. All I can say is that This peer has learned to recognize the argument as irrelevant and I just skim past it, so there's nothing to 'win', here.

Eh, for what it's worth attempting to shame me (or anyone else) as a method to dissuade me (or anyone else) from occasionally flying off on semi-trivial rants is not likely going work. This IS the Internet after all - get over yourself with all this "holier than thou-ness"... ;)

Fireheart wrote:

As for the actual subject of the thread

I'm fine with going back to the "subject of the thread" but much of what you've summarized has already been covered just about as much as it can be without a working beta to play with. Thus the reason why it's easy to jump off into tangential subjects...

Fireheart wrote:

I'm excited about the Character Generator. I worry about some of the 'sins' of the old Character Generator being replicated, but I'm mollified by the understanding that the MWM Devs Remember those sins and have no reason to repeat them.

I refer to things like:

* A color-picker where the colors sometimes weren't that different from each other and the actual colors I Wanted were not available. I distinctly recall being able to choose from a dozen shades of 'muddy green-brown'. Also, colors were often inconsistent between the Character Generator and 'live' - often because the Lighting was different in each place.

The Devs have basically already told us we should expect to have more distinct color choices for costume items than CoH. IIRC, I've seen them mention providing a palette of 256 colors to choose from.

Fireheart wrote:

* Inconsistent or missing textures - I have screenshots showing that the default hand-skin did not match the arm it was 'attached to'. There were textures that could be applied to hands or feet which did not exist for the legs or torso.

The all-time most annoying "missing costume texture" of CoH for me was the lack of a 'shiny bikini bottom' to match up with the 'shiny spandex top' to allow for a full shiny leotard. CoH had the 'shiny spandex top' and the 'shiny spandex leggings' but it never had the corresponding shiny gloves, boots or bikini bottoms. I'm sure I've mentioned that here in these forums 5 or 6 times by now.

The Devs have told us with the way textures should work in CoT this kind of "missing texture" problem should no longer be a problem.

Fireheart wrote:

* Horrid foot modeling, where 'bare' feet were drawn over a 'high-heel' model, producing a 'Liefeld' effect. Later boot models flipped the other way, producing giant, gnarly feet because they did not scale correctly with body/model size-sliders.

Completely agree with this. To highlight how bad the foot modeling was in general there were only a handful of costume items in CoH that were literally removed from the game and completely replaced by reworked versions and I believe practically all of these "reworked" items were shoe/foot related.

So far the feet of the few character examples we've seen of this game look reasonable to me.

Fireheart wrote:

* Ridiculous clipping/not-clipping issues, where costume pieces didn't respond to body/model sliders and often produced huge 'air-gaps' - I have pictures!

We can only assume the CoT will do their best to minimize this.

Fireheart wrote:

* Improperly anchored accessories, which would 'tear away' from a moving character and kite along behind on invisible strings - Bat Wings - I have Pictures.

I remember having problems with the tails (especially the later animated tails) which would periodically "snap" into pieces as they moved and constantly clipped into my character's legs.

Fireheart wrote:

* One's head could be sized to clip through both hair And hats - pictures.

The Devs have specifically addressed this and claim we'll be able to wear any hat with any hair. At least that's what they're shooting for at any rate.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

It comes with the Maleficent icon (which is awesome, by the way-- she is my all-time favorite villain). :D

Yeah for what it's worth I'm happy they're working on a sequel to the 2014 Maleficent movie. Even as a big fan I didn't think it was the "best" movie ever made but at least it was a role that Jolie was practically born to play:

Yes, I was very disappointed in the movie, because "Sleeping Beauty" is my all-time favorite Disney movie, and Maleficent my all-time favorite villain, so I was very excited for the movie. Then I watched it. The best part of it was Angelina Jolie as Maleficent, because, yes, she was the perfect person to play it. Unfortunately, the second best part of it was when it ended, and the complete evisceration of the story I loved so much was over. It was nice to see Maleficent as a somewhat sympathetic character, but the trashing of the rest of the characters that was (apparently) necessary to accomplish it was not worth it. I hadn't heard they were making a sequel, and hearing it makes me sad, because I doubt they'll be able to do anything but make the mess they made worse. Sometimes, it's best to leave things alone. Not always though, as the Jungle Book and Beauty and the Beast live-actions proved. It's hit and miss. When they hit, they hit big. When they miss, they miss even bigger. :/

Shocking Blu

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See, Brainbot? I warned you.

See, Brainbot? I warned you. LOL

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I get that you're seemingly worried (paranoid?) that the Devs will simplemindedly set these sliders to be off-the-chart hyper-extreme from Square One AND for some irrational reason not do anything about it until it's too late. I simply don't think the Devs of CoT are going to that allow that to happen - what evidence do you have to justify your apparent fears that they would?

This is why it is impossible to be civil with you lothic.
Even after the multiple time I have said I don't think it is going to be an issue you still try and paint me as some crazed reactionary loon.

Lothic wrote:

So you want me to apologize to you for not agreeing with you? I must admit that literally made me LOL...

No. You can disagree all you want. I did want you to apologize for this condescending high and mighty response:

Lothic wrote:

Actually it's not. As someone who's been a software engineer for decades I tend to assume that proper increment and system testing is a universal given that doesn't need to be specifically mentioned and I also (perhaps wrongly) assumed that point is inherently obvious to everyone else as well. I'm sorry you were misled to think I wanted the Devs to absentmindedly "wait and see" what was going to happen with this, especially at a point AFTER this game's launch.

After previously being completely contrary with this:

Lothic wrote:

But the real proof of the pudding will be to see how many people create and play silly/trollish characters once the game actually launches. If we find that we only see like 10-20% running around like that then there's really no problem with this. But if for some weird reason we see like half or more PCs all looking "overtly disproportional" only then would I think the Devs might need to scale back the possible limits.

Let's give the playerbase a reasonable chance to be "responsible" with the freedoms we may be poised to get with this system. If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.

But I knew it was a longshot that your fragile ego could admit any mistake. Even now you are still trying to blame me with this 'uh I meant something else and you should have known that' bullshit.
This is where you perform some linguistic gymnastics to try and save face, yet again, and where I wash my hands of your immaturity.
Have a nice day.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I get that you're seemingly worried (paranoid?) that the Devs will simplemindedly set these sliders to be off-the-chart hyper-extreme from Square One AND for some irrational reason not do anything about it until it's too late. I simply don't think the Devs of CoT are going to that allow that to happen - what evidence do you have to justify your apparent fears that they would?

This is why it is impossible to be civil with you lothic.
Even after the multiple time I have said I don't think it is going to be an issue you still try and paint me as some crazed reactionary loon.

Lothic wrote:

So you want me to apologize to you for not agreeing with you? I must admit that literally made me LOL...

No. You can disagree all you want. I did want you to apologize for this condescending high and mighty response:

Lothic wrote:

Actually it's not. As someone who's been a software engineer for decades I tend to assume that proper increment and system testing is a universal given that doesn't need to be specifically mentioned and I also (perhaps wrongly) assumed that point is inherently obvious to everyone else as well. I'm sorry you were misled to think I wanted the Devs to absentmindedly "wait and see" what was going to happen with this, especially at a point AFTER this game's launch.

After previously being completely contrary with this:

Lothic wrote:

But the real proof of the pudding will be to see how many people create and play silly/trollish characters once the game actually launches. If we find that we only see like 10-20% running around like that then there's really no problem with this. But if for some weird reason we see like half or more PCs all looking "overtly disproportional" only then would I think the Devs might need to scale back the possible limits.

Let's give the playerbase a reasonable chance to be "responsible" with the freedoms we may be poised to get with this system. If we collectively end up abusing it too much the Devs could always reign it back in future updates/nerfs as needed.

But I knew it was a longshot that your fragile ego could admit any mistake. Even now you are still trying to blame me with this 'uh I meant something else and you should have known that' bullshit.
This is where you perform some linguistic gymnastics to try and save face, yet again, and where I wash my hands of your immaturity.
Have a nice day.

Dude... seriously... take a breath and count to ten. Feel better now?

I'm simply not going to "apologize" to you about this particular... whatever this is... regardless.
But I promise you if you'd... just... stop... digging with continued responses I wouldn't bother to reciprocate. *shrugs*

I already told you how this would end - whatever you do otherwise is your own flavor of masochism, not mine.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

See, Brainbot? I warned you. LOL

I thought I did too. Oh well...

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

It comes with the Maleficent icon (which is awesome, by the way-- she is my all-time favorite villain). :D

Yeah for what it's worth I'm happy they're working on a sequel to the 2014 Maleficent movie. Even as a big fan I didn't think it was the "best" movie ever made but at least it was a role that Jolie was practically born to play.

Yes, I was very disappointed in the movie, because "Sleeping Beauty" is my all-time favorite Disney movie, and Maleficent my all-time favorite villain, so I was very excited for the movie. Then I watched it. The best part of it was Angelina Jolie as Maleficent, because, yes, she was the perfect person to play it. Unfortunately, the second best part of it was when it ended, and the complete evisceration of the story I loved so much was over. It was nice to see Maleficent as a somewhat sympathetic character, but the trashing of the rest of the characters that was (apparently) necessary to accomplish it was not worth it. I hadn't heard they were making a sequel, and hearing it makes me sad, because I doubt they'll be able to do anything but make the mess they made worse. Sometimes, it's best to leave things alone. Not always though, as the Jungle Book and Beauty and the Beast live-actions proved. It's hit and miss. When they hit, they hit big. When they miss, they miss even bigger. :/

Well clearly the only -real- reason Disney is making a sequel is because the first one made something like $750 million in total. We all know even if the sequel is 100x worse than the first one story-wise it would probably still make a few hundred extra million. Easy money if you're Disney. ;)

At the very least we'll get to see Angelina do her thing again and there will likely be some good moments sprinkled amongst the weeds regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Sadly true, Lothic. Sad but

Sadly true, Lothic. Sad but true, as Metallica might say.

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Hopefully with our character

Hopefully with our character creator the NPCs will be using the same colors that we have access to.

I've been playing Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 a lot recently and it's super frustrating to not be able to get the right colors for things. Sometimes I try to mix and match established characters costume options with the customizable options and you just can't get the same colors. The ones the player gets to use are either too bright, too dark, or too colorful. Or sometimes I try and make a character with a look that homages others and again... You can't quite get the right colors. You can be close but not exact.

Back to CoT, I'd just like if I wanted to make my character look like part of a faction I can get the right costume pieces (already confirmed, at least mostly) and the same colors.

Small inconsistencies in costumes bug the crap out of me. Not being able to get the same color for all parts that need it, small pixel wide lines of not matching, etc.

Also also. I hope when it comes to costume patterns we run into very few patterns that will only work with it's associated pattern. Drove me up the wall when I wanted to use a pattern for say the top, but none of the leg patterns met the top pattern right except for it's associated pattern. I wanna be able to make a character with differing chest and leg patterns and not have to wear a belt to hide that they don't connect right.

Uh... Costume rant over I think. Sorry if it's a rambley mess.

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Well, this thread took a turn

Well, this thread took a turn for the worse.

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AHHHH!!!! This makes me so

AHHHH!!!! This makes me so excited!!! I've been keeping track of this development ever since COH went under, and I must say I can tell this will make COH fans proud! I also look forward to the customization for the female character as well as for the costumes. Hopefully auras and skin types will look just as realistic as the characters/costumes, and PLEASE give us pets/mounts!!! Come with it Unreal Engine!

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Just a quick point. I'm NOT

Just a quick point. I'm NOT 100% about our plans on the slider ranges so this isn't an official announcement but just simply me dredging up hazy memories. I believe the plan is to try to find decent limits that don't cause clipping any more than we help it and just intervene in costumes that are over the top. We have so many possibilities it is unlikely that will ever by able to figure out an intelligent, automated way to curb excesses. Just figure we are going by the rule "See something. Say something." This probably the most logical way to do this without stifling player creativity.

-----------

Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder,,, and then some.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I already told you how this would end - whatever you do otherwise is your own flavor of masochism, not mine.

Let's just take a step back and dance to the masochism tango

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

Let's just take a step back and dance to the masochism tango.

If that doesn't work, we can try 'Poisoning Pigeons in the Park' or 'L-Y'!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Sounds good, Avel. Hard and

Sounds good, Avel. Hard and fast rules rarely work as advertised, anyway.

Shocking Blu

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What is the long-term goal

What is the long-term goal for how we will be able to customize our characters to have not-quite-human (and not-at-all-human) faces?

1. One head model with enough sliders and toggles to be morphed away from human in appearance, to approximate alternatives such as a wolf, alien, or shark-person?
- Would require features such as movable ear attachment points, tooth sharpness and size sliders, etc.
[This seems well beyond the capabilities of the model and character generator we've seen so far, could be quite tough for players to get the desired results, and seems likely to cause significant trouble with network traffic if a much greater number of sliders would be required to support it.]

2. Swapping of head models, where the non-human heads have their own set of sliders and allowed ranges, and can be costumed with at least some of the pieces available to humans?
- Wolf-dog-human hybrid head might have different sliders (human "eyebrow tilt" might be replaced by wolf-dog-human "ear droop"). Some costumes might need to be set up to auto-adapt to the swapped head, disallowed, or recreated as versions meant to fit those swapped heads.
[I am hopeful for something like this...would be nice to eventually have nonhuman heads with appropriate sliders, rather than a fixed list of prebuilt heads to choose from as in #3 below.]

3. Costume pieces that appear as if they are alternate head models, but they replace/hide the standard humanoid head and have no sliders?
-This was CoH's method if I am remembering accurately...there were sometimes a few head shapes per category, but it was difficult/impossible to morph those "costume heads" or apply further costuming to them (e.g. hats, glasses).
[This would seem like a weak answer to me - given the advances in tech - but may be the best we can manage to get?]

4. Something else or a combination of 2 (for a limited number of popular hybrid human-animal heads) & 3 (for the rarer and tougher to logically "sliderize" cases such as robot heads, brain-in-a-jars, sharks, insects...)?

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Well, this thread took a turn for the worse.

As do most threads.

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mrultimate wrote:
mrultimate wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Well, this thread took a turn for the worse.

As do most threads.

You either lock the thread as a hero, or you live long enough to see it become the villain.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
mrultimate wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Well, this thread took a turn for the worse.

As do most threads.

You either lock the thread as a hero, or you live long enough to see it become the villain.

LOL!

Shocking Blu

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
mrultimate wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Well, this thread took a turn for the worse.

As do most threads.

You either lock the thread as a hero, or you live long enough to see it become the villain.

Ha, nice!

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Just skip the argument, no

Just skip the argument, no need to lock the thread. Most of us are talking about the actual topic.

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Very excite!!!!!

Very excite!!!!!

I lost almost 1 hour in coh/cov, now I'm going to lose 2, 3 hours.... nice!!!!!

just please make the game have a monthly fee, do not put things with price!

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Only 1 hour to CoX? LOL! I

Only 1 hour to CoX? LOL! I applaud your self control!

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Could you pretty please oh

Could you pretty please oh please oh please oh please let the muscle slider on the female body actually make her larger?

If you make the muscle sliders properly bulk up female characters I SWEAR TO ORDER PIZZA DIRECTLY TO YOUR OFFICE because that is rare as hen's teeth in games!

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Muscle sliders that Actually

Muscle sliders that Actually make more Muscles?? Inconceivable!

Be Well!
Fireheart

Foradain
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Vespertinean wrote:
Vespertinean wrote:

Could you pretty please oh please oh please oh please let the muscle slider on the female body actually make her larger?

If you make the muscle sliders properly bulk up female characters I SWEAR TO ORDER PIZZA DIRECTLY TO YOUR OFFICE because that is rare as hen's teeth in games!

What do you mean by "properly"? Looking at Juliana Malacarne, she doesn't seem to be very bulky; that's what I would hope would be the default result of adding muscle to a female character. But as long as you can control the size and then add the ripped muscles, I'd think that would work if that's what you wanted.

Good luck with the pizza delivery, though; most of these devs are scattered across the planet. Maybe a bunch of small pizzas?

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Vespertinean
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Well... I just mean that it

Well... I just mean that it would be nice if when the sliders are at max, the male and female bodies have a similar amount of bulk in their arms and legs. The female shoulders would likely be narrower of course, and hips wider, but still the thickness of the limbs should be comparable. Which is to say... if the males can be over the top, then the females have every right to be as well! Not to sound overly feminist about it really, it's just fun to be larger than life, ya?

Besides, players should be able to non-human creatures in the finished version, right? It would be hard to make the proportions look right if someone's trying to make some species along the lines of werewolfs, orcs, minotaurs, giants, and the like. I doubt the options to create monsters like those will be available at launch, but it would be a good way to future proof for when the time comes!

As for the Pizzas... hrmm... Very well, I SWEAR INSTEAD TO ORDER PIZZA FOR WHOEVER WEIGHTS THE 3D MODEL THEN! (If they're cool... with that... I mean...)

ElegantHope
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I totally what you get, plus

I totally get what you mean, plus there's characters in media that are really masculine or muscular looking ladies, like Sakura Ogami in Dangan Ronpa or Jasper from Steven Universe. So the chance to make a huge variety of body types for ladies would be nice.

Also I have broad shoulders myself so smaller shoulders feels less useful in creation. ^^;

Vespertinean
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Well both genders do have a

Well both genders do have a shoulder slider, ya? I'd just imagine that the male one would let you go wider than the female one would, which is fine. Not great for monsters all the time, but pretty much fine. I know weighting these things must be a pain, and the model would likely look completely distorted if it's stretched too far... but I'd still like to see the Devs do as much as they're reasonably able~!

And yeah, I absolutely love Jasper! She's actually pretty close in build to my minotaur grandma character... but my mino granny's arms are longer, with way larger hands and a humped back! I'm always surprised when people hit on her... ahaha

Mind, I played her in Second Life so that's fairly normal behavior for the community there.

Mordheim13
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Makes sense, if that's what

Makes sense, if that's what the player wants. Although muscular does not automatically mean equally bulky in proportion as a guy, even in comics. Witness, She-Hulk. Now, of course, her cousin the Hulk is a full category stronger than her, so she wouldn't have muscles in proportion with his. However, both Colossus and the Thing are at the same strength level as her, yet, though she is as tall as either of them (depending upon the artist), she is not as bulky. She is, however, comparable in build to the Submariner, who is in her strength category AND Thor, who is in the Hulk's category. Thus, for human (basically) characters, females would not be as bulky as males of comparable strength, for the most part, and those that are tend to have flatter chests, since their ratio of body fat is greatly reduced. For races such as orcs, ogres, etc., however, that might not hold true. And, of course, anthropomorphized animals of some species, and various alien races, would have the females LARGER than the males.

Shocking Blu

Brainbot
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It could be simplified with

It could be simplified with two sliders, one for definition and one for bulk.

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