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Discuss: Pre-Alpha Chargen - Make Anyone

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Mordheim13
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It could be simplified with two sliders, one for definition and one for bulk.

There you go. No sense over-complicating.

Shocking Blu

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I'm not talking about power

I'm not talking about power levels or anything, just bodily proportions. I don't dislike She-Hulk of course, she has an amazing body type. I'm just advocating for players to have a decent range of body types to play around with. As much as I might love muscular characters, I honestly don't have a preference for body types. I just love to see people make pretty things, and having a wide range of body types facilitates that... so... having two sliders would honestly be pretty killer.

Mind, the range on that weight slider for the female mesh looked fucking fantastic, so kudos to the dev team for that!! ^...^

Seeing the low end on that kinda makes me wanna build a scrawny little undead lady... ahaha

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Women should definitely be

Women should definitely be able to be fat, or bulky, or flat, or pear-shaped, or whathaveyou.

The only option I personally do not want to see: player characters who are preggers. Player characters will be going into battle, and a late-term woman going into battle means she doesn't care if she loses the baby, or causes the baby to be brain-dead before birth, or severely crippled for life before birth, so it'd be a bit jarring.
Doctor: "You should avoid physical stress or sudden shifts in momentum."
Super Preggers: "What about radiation bursts, necrotic blasts, gun-shot wounds, multiple stabs, being thrown through brick walls? Are those all still okay?"
Doctor: "...I'm... going to schedule you a visit for our psychologist... and we just finished work on a pregnancy-safe anti-psychotic I'm going to prescribe..."

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Women should definitely be able to be fat, or bulky, or flat, or pear-shaped, or whathaveyou.

The only option I personally do not want to see: player characters who are preggers. Player characters will be going into battle, and a late-term woman going into battle means she doesn't care if she loses the baby, or causes the baby to be brain-dead before birth, or severely crippled for life before birth, so it'd be a bit jarring.
Doctor: "You should avoid physical stress or sudden shifts in momentum."
Super Preggers: "What about radiation bursts, necrotic blasts, gun-shot wounds, multiple stabs, being thrown through brick walls? Are those all still okay?"
Doctor: "...I'm... going to schedule you a visit for our psychologist... and we just finished work on a pregnancy-safe anti-psychotic I'm going to prescribe..."

What if the person is nigh invulnerable? They could probably do some light crime fighting then. No super villains with death rays, but if they can't be hurt by less than a tank shell they could probably take some muggers at no risk.

Also could be some type of alien who's bodies and development of young don't conform to our human standards.

I say let players have at any truely offensive characters/costumes will be reported anyhow.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It could be simplified with two sliders, one for definition and one for bulk.

Well, if you look at the character creator in the latest installment, there is a slider for muscles and a slider for "weight", which is PC for fat; so I would assume that is taken care of.

While the twitch stream is still on twitch you can follow this link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/237076037 (go to 9:45 in the video)

Or you can go to youtube with this link: https://youtu.be/TOdpiKZv5-U?t=43

But I wonder what level of muscle definition we will see with the "weight" slider at it's lowest value? Or will it just adjust macro-level dimensions?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Women should definitely be able to be fat, or bulky, or flat, or pear-shaped, or whathaveyou.

The only option I personally do not want to see: player characters who are preggers. Player characters will be going into battle, and a late-term woman going into battle means she doesn't care if she loses the baby, or causes the baby to be brain-dead before birth, or severely crippled for life before birth, so it'd be a bit jarring.
Doctor: "You should avoid physical stress or sudden shifts in momentum."
Super Preggers: "What about radiation bursts, necrotic blasts, gun-shot wounds, multiple stabs, being thrown through brick walls? Are those all still okay?"
Doctor: "...I'm... going to schedule you a visit for our psychologist... and we just finished work on a pregnancy-safe anti-psychotic I'm going to prescribe..."

I'd like to suggest that some of our bio-medicine type gadgeteers begin work on what Lois McMaster Bujold calls "Uterine Replicators" and David Weber just calls "Tubing".

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Women should definitely be able to be fat, or bulky, or flat, or pear-shaped, or whathaveyou.

The only option I personally do not want to see: player characters who are preggers. Player characters will be going into battle, and a late-term woman going into battle means she doesn't care if she loses the baby, or causes the baby to be brain-dead before birth, or severely crippled for life before birth, so it'd be a bit jarring.
Doctor: "You should avoid physical stress or sudden shifts in momentum."
Super Preggers: "What about radiation bursts, necrotic blasts, gun-shot wounds, multiple stabs, being thrown through brick walls? Are those all still okay?"
Doctor: "...I'm... going to schedule you a visit for our psychologist... and we just finished work on a pregnancy-safe anti-psychotic I'm going to prescribe..."

I dunno. World is about to end. Thanos is attacking. Stay home and make sure the unborn baby is okay or go out and save the world and risk the unborn baby?

Not that I want to see it either btw, just saying.

You're out running an errand and you see people being mugged. Cops won't be there in time. Save a couple of people or let them die?

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I suppose there's the ol'

I suppose there's the ol' Super intelligent/possessed pre-born baby takes control of mommy to achieve its own agenda thing. But that would just be too creepy.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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When i was RPing one of my

When i was RPing one of my characters being pregnant, for the term, I used her only for RP, simulating her having maternity leave. Of course, it being comics, she was back in form and on the job pretty quick after the birth, unrealistically so for any setting besides a comic book world. LOL

Shocking Blu

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Alien Spawn driving Zombie

Alien Spawn driving Zombie Mom like she was Gypsy Danger? Terrifying.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Some serious rp'ers here lol

Some serious rp'ers here lol

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Well, if you look at the character creator in the latest installment, there is a slider for muscles and a slider for "weight", which is PC for fat; so I would assume that is taken care of.

While the twitch stream is still on twitch you can follow this link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/237076037 (go to 9:45 in the video)

Or you can go to youtube with this link: https://youtu.be/TOdpiKZv5-U?t=43

But I wonder what level of muscle definition we will see with the "weight" slider at it's lowest value? Or will it just adjust macro-level dimensions?

I saw the twitch. The weight slider you reference is more of belly/waist slider than what I am talking about. Weight and bulk are different when it comes to body types.
I am talking about a full body morph that adjusts the entire figure (or selected areas), here is what I mean. The same can (should) be an option for both males and females.

You start with this:

Then a full body 'definition' slider to go to this:

Or a 'Fat' body slider to go to this:

Or a 'Bulk' body slider to get this:

Then we can mix and match as we please.
It's not easy to make multiple full body morphs work in conjunction so I wouldn't count on this kind of option though.

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I think you're combining them

I think you're combining them.

I agree with your picture of definition. I also agree with your picture of fat. I just think that those are two ends of the same spectrum. Your picture of fat, however, had very little muscle under it.

And your picture of "bulk" looks to me like a lot of muscle and a good amount of of fat.

For example: Here's a picture of a person with not much muscle mass but three different levels of fat/definition:

and here'a an example of a person with more muscle mass and four levels of fat/definition:

Finally, here's a picture of someone with a lot more muscle mass and two levels of fat/definition:

So you can see how fat <--//--> definition are just word labels that describe opposite ends of the same scale.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Mordheim13
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Some serious rp'ers here lol

Yes. I hope to meet many of them in-game. :)

Shocking Blu

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Possibly silly question time!

Possibly silly question time! What level of CoX reference will be allowed in-game? I mean, I don't want to see CoT get in trouble. The reason I ask is, I have at least two characters I'm considering bringing whole concept from there to here. So, would it be permissible for them to have been transported during the event (whatever it was) that ended CoX's world, to CoT, and now have to integrate? Or would that open CoT to possible legal troubles, and thus contraindicated?

Shocking Blu

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If they are Your characters,

If they are Your characters, then there should be no problem migrating them to the new game.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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You won't really be able to

You won't really be able to reference they came from the CoH universe or had an incident at Portal Corp anymore than you could claim they came from the Marvel Universe and got banished by Dr. Strange or come from Star Wars and went through a worm hole.

What I've done is readopted my characters quite a bit, to keep their soul but have their history match what we know so far of CoT's universe.

If you go to the backstory forum, Sister Silicon is merely mentions she's been thrust across dimensions twice. The first one has even fallen to 'entropy' which was a neat way to infer she's come from both CoH and CO without actually saying so.

Have fun and get creative, your characters are yours. But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

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I think McJigg is probably

I think McJigg is probably right. My recommendation would be to do something similar to the way MWM just says 'the old game' or 'the old city' if you need to have a reference.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I think you're combining them.

I agree with your picture of definition. I also agree with your picture of fat. I just think that those are two ends of the same spectrum. Your picture of fat, however, had very little muscle under it.

And your picture of "bulk" looks to me like a lot of muscle and a good amount of of fat.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It seems you are confusing muscles/fat in the real world with how body morphs work in a 3d environment.

The guy in the bulk example has roughly the same body fat as the first picture. Bulk is muscle size. Here is an example of bulk combined with definition when you think in 3d model terms:

I picked my examples to show what that singular slider would result in. If you use the weight (fat) dial you go from the baseline to the example I gave. If you use the Mass (bulk) slider you go from the baseline to my bulk example.

Getting back to fat and definition being on the same spectrum. It's true in the real world but not in morphs. Morphs only affect the area it is assigned to. It would take a while to explain what I mean so here take a look at this:

Does this make sense?

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

When i was RPing one of my characters being pregnant, for the term, I used her only for RP, simulating her having maternity leave. Of course, it being comics, she was back in form and on the job pretty quick after the birth, unrealistically so for any setting besides a comic book world. LOL

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Some serious rp'ers here lol

Just as a personal preference I'm not sure if I'd play a "near full term pregnant" character actively running around in hyper scrapper-lock mode even if you could explain that her superpowers would allow her to do that. I might do one that would be like a "hovering controller" who could do things with powers that wouldn't necessarily require a bunch of overt physical activity. But that's just me and my preferences. I would still want the game to allow people to create fully pregnant characters regardless and let people decide how they would want to play those themselves.

As far as being able to create generically chubby/fat non-pregnant characters I'm definitely looking forward to that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

You won't really be able to reference they came from the CoH universe or had an incident at Portal Corp anymore than you could claim they came from the Marvel Universe and got banished by Dr. Strange or come from Star Wars and went through a worm hole.

What I've done is readopted my characters quite a bit, to keep their soul but have their history match what we know so far of CoT's universe.

If you go to the backstory forum, Sister Silicon is merely mentions she's been thrust across dimensions twice. The first one has even fallen to 'entropy' which was a neat way to infer she's come from both CoH and CO without actually saying so.

Have fun and get creative, your characters are yours. But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

Lean hard on that fourth wall.

Some cues off the top of my head:

  • Military security
  • Amnesia
  • Code of silence
  • Horrible secret or trauma you’re fleeing, or banished you, or might follow you here
  • Worf snarling “We don’t talk about it.” in a time-travel episode, or any other polite way of saying “Nunya bizness”

(And that reminds me that I left a bit of meta-headcanon out of those backstory notes. Thanks, McJigg!)

Twitter: @SisterSilicon

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

When i was RPing one of my characters being pregnant, for the term, I used her only for RP, simulating her having maternity leave. Of course, it being comics, she was back in form and on the job pretty quick after the birth, unrealistically so for any setting besides a comic book world. LOL

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Some serious rp'ers here lol

Just as a personal preference I'm not sure if I'd play a "near full term pregnant" character actively running around in hyper scrapper-lock mode even if you could explain that her superpowers would allow her to do that. I might do one that would be like a "hovering controller" who could do things with powers that wouldn't necessarily require a bunch of overt physical activity. But that's just me and my preferences. I would still want the game to allow people to create fully pregnant characters regardless and let people decide how they would want to play those themselves.

As far as being able to create generically chubby/fat non-pregnant characters I'm definitely looking forward to that.

I have to agree with this. In a world where one can legally KILL their unborn child, where is the logic in objecting to them endangering it and themselves to save the world, or even a mugging victim, if they so choose? Their body, their choice.

Shocking Blu

Lothic
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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
McJigg wrote:

Have fun and get creative, your characters are yours. But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

Lean hard on that fourth wall.

Some cues off the top of my head:

  • Military security
  • Amnesia
  • Code of silence
  • Horrible secret or trauma you’re fleeing, or banished you, or might follow you here
  • Worf snarling “We don’t talk about it.” in a time-travel episode, or any other polite way of saying “Nunya bizness”

(And that reminds me that I left a bit of meta-headcanon out of those backstory notes. Thanks, McJigg!)

Yeah these are basically good ideas to "sanitize" your characters from any leftover CoH lore details.

Many of character concepts I used in CoH have been around for so long (mostly from table-top RPGs from the 80s and 90s) that even by the time I used them in CoH they had already been "generalized/reimagined" from their original settings and/or origins. I'm expecting to re-roll at least several of them into CoT without having to change their background stories very much at all.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mordheim13
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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
McJigg wrote:

You won't really be able to reference they came from the CoH universe or had an incident at Portal Corp anymore than you could claim they came from the Marvel Universe and got banished by Dr. Strange or come from Star Wars and went through a worm hole.

What I've done is readopted my characters quite a bit, to keep their soul but have their history match what we know so far of CoT's universe.

If you go to the backstory forum, Sister Silicon is merely mentions she's been thrust across dimensions twice. The first one has even fallen to 'entropy' which was a neat way to infer she's come from both CoH and CO without actually saying so.

Have fun and get creative, your characters are yours. But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

Lean hard on that fourth wall.

Some cues off the top of my head:

  • Military security
  • Amnesia
  • Code of silence
  • Horrible secret or trauma you’re fleeing, or banished you, or might follow you here
  • Worf snarling “We don’t talk about it.” in a time-travel episode, or any other polite way of saying “Nunya bizness”

(And that reminds me that I left a bit of meta-headcanon out of those backstory notes. Thanks, McJigg!)

This makes sense. One of the characters is a Reed Richards level super scientist, and would probably have a dozen headache-inducing reasons why talking about the world of origin would damage the Space/Time Continuum, or whatever. he other, being a 6 year-old girl, would probably have either real or feigned trauma-induced amnesia after watching her world and all her friends snuffed out, with nothing she could do even with all her powers (even her dog gone!). And yes, there are many ways to reference the old game location without saying Pa----n C--y (or R---- I---s). And, of course, mentioning Stateguy or P Corp or Longarrows would be right out. :D

Shocking Blu

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It seems you are confusing muscles/fat in the real world with how body morphs work in a 3d environment.

The guy in the (Brainbot's original) bulk example has roughly the same body fat as the first picture (of Brainbot's post).

I agree.

Brainbot wrote:

Bulk is muscle size. Here is an example of bulk combined with definition when you think in 3d model terms:

I agree completely and so far you are supporting my point entirely. What is it that you are trying to disagree with?

I use the word fat and you use the word definition. But they are both opposites of each other and can both be expressed equally on the same scale, just from the opposite perspective.
I use the word muscle mass and you use the word bulk. But they both represent size of the muscles themselves; regardless of fat or definition.

Brainbot wrote:

Getting back to fat and definition being on the same spectrum. It's true in the real world but not in morphs. Morphs only affect the area it is assigned to. It would take a while to explain what I mean so here take a look at this:

Does this make sense?

If you are saying what I think you are saying, then you are using the word definition to refer to the use of Normal Maps to change what the existing size and shape "looks like" without actually changing the shape at all. And, actually, I think your use of the word "definition" to describe such a slider is the best use of the word.

In that case, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to do that.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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McJigg wrote:
McJigg wrote:

But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

Now I'm kinda wondering, what if someone just had vague in-character bio text about the character being a dimensional refugee from another world... and then followed it up with an out-of-character note at the end of their bio, saying the character's explicitly one they used to play in "an older superhero MMO that must not be named". That's not a very elegant solution, of course, but it is a solution, unless even saying that has legal ramifications.

Personally, I'm also in the camp of just modifying my old characters to fit in as natives of the new Titans world. That just seems simple and cleaner to me. Though I can understand why people would want to try and preserve some kind of personal continuity.

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Acyl wrote:
Acyl wrote:
McJigg wrote:

But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

Now I'm kinda wondering, what if someone just had vague in-character bio text about the character being a dimensional refugee from another world... and then followed it up with an out-of-character note at the end of their bio, saying the character's explicitly one they used to play in "an older superhero MMO that must not be named". That's not a very elegant solution, of course, but it is a solution, unless even saying that has legal ramifications.

In that scenario I'd simply mention the first bit ("being a dimensional refugee from another world") without mentioning the second bit ("used to play in an older superhero MMO that must not be named"). Pretty much everyone will likely already assume that the "dimensional refugee from another world" bit is likely a veiled reference to CoH anyway and this keeps it vague enough (from a potential legal point of view) that it doesn't really matter either way.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Pretty much everyone will likely already assume that the "dimensional refugee from another world" bit is a reference to CoH anyway and this keeps it vague enough (from a potential legality point of view) that it really doesn't matter either way.

I spent a bit editing my post, taking aborted strafing runs at this point, before finally realising you've said it better than I have.

I guess, examining it even more abstractly, now I'm wondering: how important is it for everyone who views Character X's bio to read that our hero(ine) is specifically from Primal Earth, Praetoria, Rikti Earth, or whatever? Just invoking the 'refugee from another timeline' superhero genre staple is probably sufficient to convey relevant information to any reader, whether for RP reasons or just general flavour.

If it's very important to a player for... some reason, then, okay, maybe I can see wanting to make the reference clear. But for many characters it might not make any practical difference.

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Acyl wrote:
Acyl wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Pretty much everyone will likely already assume that the "dimensional refugee from another world" bit is a reference to CoH anyway and this keeps it vague enough (from a potential legality point of view) that it really doesn't matter either way.

I spent a bit editing my post, taking aborted strafing runs at this point, before finally realising you've said it better than I have.

I guess, examining it even more abstractly, now I'm wondering: how important is it for everyone who views Character X's bio to read that our hero(ine) is specifically from Primal Earth, Praetoria, Rikti Earth, or whatever? Just invoking the 'refugee from another timeline' superhero genre staple is probably sufficient to convey relevant information to any reader, whether for RP reasons or just general flavour.

If it's very important to a player for... some reason, then, okay, maybe I can see wanting to make the reference clear. But for many characters it might not make any practical difference.

I suppose there will be some people who'll want to make it "absolutely crystal clear" that they consider their CoT characters to be the EXACT same characters that they played in CoH and I don't necessarily want to tell them they are wrong for wanting to do that.

But on the other hand (again based on my experience of successfully "reimagining" several well-loved characters across many different game systems over the years) I usually find it's easier to simply "recreate/reimagine" old characters into the new game system instead of trying to jump through hoops trying to explain how the new characters are -literally- the same ones from the old(er) games.

Again YMMV. I'm just saying if you keep things generic/vague enough with your character concepts you'll never have to worry about accidentally using bits of lore that are firmly owned by other IPs.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I have also integrated both

I have also integrated both the characters I have in mind into new games (before and after CoX, in fact). I was just wondering about this because CoT is an effort to save the best parts of our former home, and so it would make all kinds of sense for some of its residents to be former citizens of CoX. Just wondering whether it could be done at all without Legal getting involved. Because, like Smaug from the Hobbit, corporate legal entities may never use some of what they have hoarded, and indeed may keep hold of it purely for the purpose of denying others its use (Firefly/Serenity comes to mind), but they know "its value to the last farthing", and will come after you with tooth, talon and flame given the opportunity.

Shocking Blu

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I was just wondering about this because CoT is an effort to save the best parts of our former home, and so it would make all kinds of sense for some of its residents to be former citizens of CoX.

You and I know this, as real live humans who live in the real world. But would any of our old CoH "characters" actually know or care about the fate of one game or another that real humans are playing?

I realize that may sound like a semi-silly question to ask yourself, but if you think about it rationally the world of CoT really is going to be in a completely different "universe" than CoH was even despite its creators' attempt to make it "vaguely similar".

Again I would never tell people how to play their own characters. I would just say that with all the fundamental powerset changes and gameplay mechanics at work it's going to be relatively hard to "pretend" that any newly character created in CoT is a "direct refugee" from CoH without at least some degree of mental gymnastics to make that "transition" sound plausible. As I said before I plan to "reimagine" several characters from CoH into CoT more or less the same way Star Trek gets away with "mirrored" characters in its Mirror Universe storylines as similar but not literally the same people.

Again YMMV.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yea. I feel like this could

Yea. I feel like this could be the a good solution for both female and male characters, have a muscle definition slider that affects the texture of your muscles, and have a muscle bulk slider that affects muscle size. That way you can do both someone who looks like the hulk for either gender, or chose if you want your character to look more like a weightlifter or a bodybuilder. But since they already have the mentioned muscle slider, I don't know if they intend to add any extra sliders.
Also the difference between the muscle bulk sliders and the fat sliders could be that they mostly affect the shape of the muscles rather than adding fat to areas where fat tends to gather. So it would have some differences in a way because the muscles would be in way more areas than the fat slider, and would affect the shape of your body in different ways.

And I disagree on the whole "women shouldn't get the same range as men for muscle" discussion. The example of she-hulk's shape compared to other heroes in her weight class are in the end the choice of the people writing/drawing her. If you look up women strongmen and bodybuilders, they can get pretty bulky in reality. Add in that this is a superhero game where reality's rules are bent here and there, and it's entirely possible to allow for a wider range than IRL. Especially if you want to design a non-human character, like another person pointed out.

sorry if this is late to the discussion, been busy the past few days.

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Women should definitely be able to be fat, or bulky, or flat, or pear-shaped, or whathaveyou.

The only option I personally do not want to see: player characters who are preggers. Player characters will be going into battle, and a late-term woman going into battle means she doesn't care if she loses the baby, or causes the baby to be brain-dead before birth, or severely crippled for life before birth, so it'd be a bit jarring.
Doctor: "You should avoid physical stress or sudden shifts in momentum."
Super Preggers: "What about radiation bursts, necrotic blasts, gun-shot wounds, multiple stabs, being thrown through brick walls? Are those all still okay?"
Doctor: "...I'm... going to schedule you a visit for our psychologist... and we just finished work on a pregnancy-safe anti-psychotic I'm going to prescribe..."

Now I need to scrap my plans for Trimestra the Life-Giver. :(

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ElegantHope wrote:
ElegantHope wrote:

And I disagree on the whole "women shouldn't get the same range as men for muscle" discussion. The example of she-hulk's shape compared to other heroes in her weight class are in the end the choice of the people writing/drawing her. If you look up women strongmen and bodybuilders, they can get pretty bulky in reality. Add in that this is a superhero game where reality's rules are bent here and there, and it's entirely possible to allow for a wider range than IRL. Especially if you want to design a non-human character, like another person pointed out.

If this game were set in a "real world" setting with only "normal" men and women without superpowers then there might (only 'might' mind you) be a logical case to argue that the muscle sliders of men and women could be set slightly differently.

But in a game of superheroes where effectively anything is possible there really is no physical/genetic barriers for why the muscle sliders of both men and woman shouldn't span the exact same range. Sexism literally has no place where anyone can plausibly do anything regardless of sex/gender.

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Yea, definitely agreed. You

Yea, definitely agreed. You worded what I meant way better than I did. ^^

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Again I would never tell people how to play their own characters. I would just say that with all the fundamental powerset changes and gameplay mechanics at work it's going to be relatively hard to "pretend" that any newly character created in CoT is a "direct refugee" from CoH without at least some degree of mental gymnastics to make that "transition" sound plausible.

For best results, keep game mechanics at arm’s length from the character’s fundamentals. If the character’s theme is based on the specific implementation of a power from CoH (or CO), you might be in trouble, but otherwise, Aesthetic Decoupling should get you 90% of the way there.

When I first re-created Sister Silicon in CO, I made her an electric blaster by CO’s rules, and it still worked fine for the character. Well, except for the part where Cryptic overcompensated for CoH Electric Blast’s relative lack of damage as a trade-off for sapping, and made CO’s electricity tree ez mode lethal.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I have also integrated both the characters I have in mind into new games (before and after CoX, in fact). I was just wondering about this because CoT is an effort to save the best parts of our former home, and so it would make all kinds of sense for some of its residents to be former citizens of CoX. Just wondering whether it could be done at all without Legal getting involved. Because, like Smaug from the Hobbit, corporate legal entities may never use some of what they have hoarded, and indeed may keep hold of it purely for the purpose of denying others its use (Firefly/Serenity comes to mind), but they know "its value to the last farthing", and will come after you with tooth, talon and flame given the opportunity.

Yeah, that's why I'd recommend erring on the side of caution when it comes to using any actual references to CoX, for MWM's sake and our own. If NCSoft noticed a bunch of characters running around with references to any of their copyrighted IP, they could bring a suit that would damage the game even if they didn't win it. I expect MWM would find it difficult to allocate the resources to fight a nuisance lawsuit and keep the game running at 100% at the same time.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Again I would never tell people how to play their own characters. I would just say that with all the fundamental powerset changes and gameplay mechanics at work it's going to be relatively hard to "pretend" that any newly character created in CoT is a "direct refugee" from CoH without at least some degree of mental gymnastics to make that "transition" sound plausible.

For best results, keep game mechanics at arm’s length from the character’s fundamentals. If the character’s theme is based on the specific implementation of a power from CoH (or CO), you might be in trouble, but otherwise, Aesthetic Decoupling should get you 90% of the way there.

When I first re-created Sister Silicon in CO, I made her an electric blaster by CO’s rules, and it still worked fine for the character. Well, except for the part where Cryptic overcompensated for CoH Electric Blast’s relative lack of damage as a trade-off for sapping, and made CO’s electricity tree ez mode lethal.

The highlighted part of your response is an example of what I was trying to zero in on. Unless you're incredibly lucky no character in CoT is ever going to be able to be 100% exactly power-for-power identical to anything you had in CoH. Even the costume items may be "similar" but they won't be "identical". Because of those things it's going to be relatively, I'll say "difficult", for anyone to easily claim that character X, Y or Z is just one of your old CoH characters that directly hopped into a portal and appeared in CoT. Not saying you can't say that if you want to - just saying it's not going to be terribly "credible" all things considered.

I'd rather just take the best elements of my old characters and "reformulate" them to best fit the new CoT environment as new characters with no "link" (direct or otherwise) to CoH at all.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Well, I did say it was

Well, I did say it was probably a silly question. Thank you for confirming, Lothic. It would have been nice to get some input from one of the actual creators, instead of just being pelted by fellow players, but whatever. Hell, I may not even be able to afford to play the damn game anyway, so who cares?

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I agree completely and so far you are supporting my point entirely. What is it that you are trying to disagree with?

I'm not disagreeing with anything. I am trying to explain that in 3d morph terms fat and definition are different. I'm haven't done a very good job so far but I have a bit of time so let me see if I can do better.

Huckleberry wrote:

I use the word fat and you use the word definition. But they are both opposites of each other and can both be expressed equally on the same scale, just from the opposite perspective.
I use the word muscle mass and you use the word bulk. But they both represent size of the muscles themselves; regardless of fat or definition.

Ok, the reason I used the terms bulk, definition and weight(sometimes called heavy) is because those are common terms for 3d body morphs. There are more morphs of course but for simplicity sake lets just stick to those 3.

Morphs work a very specific way. They only affect the parts of the model they are connected to. Basically they push or pull certain areas of a model based on a positive or negative value.
I am having trouble finding proper examples so I had to make my own (thankfully I still had DazStudio installed on my laptop).
From left to right we have normal guy (baseline model), fat guy (weight morphs only), massive guy (bulk morphs only), and ripped guy (definition morphs only). If you right click on any of these images and click 'view image' you will get a much larger image so you see the details better.

These are all positive value morphs. Meaning they change the model when you apply a positive value to the morph. They do not have a negative value (well they can but for our purposes here they don't).
Each of these morphs affect a different part of the model or in different ways. To get the effect of going from ripped guy to fat guy (what you are proposing) it would take combing the definition morph and the weight morph. It can be done but they are still different morphs. How this would be done is you take you slider that has at one end of the spectrum the fat guy and the other end the ripped guy then the center of that dial would be the normal guy. This is how many games do it.

But this limits what types of bodies that can be created. With these 3 morphs (coupled with a height morph) you can create almost any male body type from those suffering from gigantism to an achondroplasia dwarf, Marvel's The Blob to DC's juiced up Bane.
Here some combinations of these body morphs to show what I mean. On the left is half weight with half bulk and on the right is half weight with half definition.

When you combine these morphs on one dial as you are suggesting you effectively lock out a specific morph just by moving a dial in one direction. You can't give muscle definition to a guy with any kind of fat. So no ultimate strongman competitor builds. No old school blacksmith types. No Tank Abbot or Kimbo Slice (showing my age).

Now these same types of morphs can be used on female models as well (with some obvious adjustments) but female models would probably benefit from another morph as well, voluptuous which is mostly just breast and hip morphs. I would prefer if they could be split into two morphs but I don't expect or require it.
So for females you could recreate almost any body type with 5 morphs (6 if you split voluputous into 2), weight, bulk, definition, height and voluptuous. From Spiderman's Mary Jane to DC's Wonder Woman. Here are a couple examples.
In the middle you have the base line female body. Using just voluptuous and weight morphs I made the curvy Mary Jane'esque type on the left. Using definition, bulk and voluptuous morphs I got the amazon princess on the right.

Now keep in mind that I have been talking exclusively about full body morphs. These same morphs can be applied to specific areas like arms, legs, torso, ect. So if you want a beer belly guy with massively muscular defined arms that could be done with these same morphs. Or if you want to create that teen girl gymnast body with thick muscular legs on a tiny frame you can do that too. Fat bottom girls, go ahead and make em.
It only takes a few properly designed morphs to create most any realistic body type. For the weirder stuff like aliens, monsters, zombies and so on it might require additional morphs. But you would be surprised the amount of flexibility those few morphs can have when you play with them. I can make Ogres, trolls, spindly aliens, animal hybrids (to an extent) and many other things with just those few morphs.

Huckleberry wrote:

If you are saying what I think you are saying, then you are using the word definition to refer to the use of Normal Maps to change what the existing size and shape "looks like" without actually changing the shape at all. And, actually, I think your use of the word "definition" to describe such a slider is the best use of the word.

In that case, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to do that.

That wasn't what I was trying to show you with the video. I wanted you to see how a morph only affects the parts of the body it is connected to. To answer your unasked question, yes bmp or normal maps could be used for showing muscle definition. But game models are beyond that now and those maps should probably be used in conjunction with body morphs to give a more detailed model option.
I hope this all makes sense. It's tough to explain these things when you don't know the other persons level of knowledge in 3d modeling.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Well, I did say it was probably a silly question. Thank you for confirming, Lothic. It would have been nice to get some input from one of the actual creators, instead of just being pelted by fellow players, but whatever. Hell, I may not even be able to afford to play the damn game anyway, so who cares?

I've said (I think 3 or 4 times at least in this thread) that people are completely free to establish their character concepts in CoT anyway you want. If you literally want to type in your CoT character bios something like "This character was first created in CoH and I consider it the exact same character from that game" then knock yourself out with that. Just because that's something I'm not likely going to do doesn't mean you can't do whatever you want. Don't get so defensive about this - there are countless alternatives for handling this as subtly or as overtly as you want. *shrugs*

I actually liked the way McJigg summarized this point so I'll requote what he said earlier about it:

McJigg wrote:

Have fun and get creative, your characters are yours. But if you want to be from CoH, you need to say it without actually saying it.

To my mind I think he's simply suggesting the "subtle" approach to how to handle this.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yep. Got it. Look, Lothic,

Yep. Got it. Look, Lothic, you are obviously aware that it's not what you say as much as the snide tone in which you say it, so don't act innocent and I won't act defensive. LOL I'm just saying, I have been amply answered regarding what a silly question mine was. Period. Dot. I'll think twice about asking any further questions.

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You say that if we put

You say that if we put definition and fat on the same slider we "can't give muscle definition to a guy with any kind of fat."
Ummm.... Duh!

I challenge you to find anyone with a good amount of fat who has good muscle definition. Muscle definition is the lack of fat between the muscle tissue and the epidermis. That's why Arnold Schwarzenegger's comment "If it jiggles it's fat" is so famous. (full disclosure, I had to use spellcheck for the name). It sounds like you want to put muscle definition on top of someone's fat. Not only is that not realistic, it's just weird.

But then, the Avatar Creator of CoT is all about creating the unrealistic and weird, so I can't really fault you for that.

But in your examples above, it does not appear that's what it does. It appears as if you are referring to labels that some developers of one program gave to macro-level body morph targets. So, hey, if that word works for you, great.

Brainbot wrote:

That wasn't what I was trying to show you with the video.

Unfortunately, you chose the wrong video. Because in that video they use the word definition as an effect on the Normal Map only.

In iClone 3D they use the word fitness for something similar to what you are describing. It is just another macro-level whole body morph that steers it towards a particular end-result.

All I am saying is that the bulk model in your example could just as easily be made by adding some fat and some muscle mass.

Your lexicon may make sense to the users of a particular software program, but the players of CoT shouldn't have to bring a Daz-to-English dictionary with them when they create a character.

If I want to make a strung out heroin addict, I bring muscle to near zero and fat to near zero so you can count his ribs and see every muscle and bone in him, but the guy is skinny as a broom handle.

If I want to make Bruce Lee, I keep the fat slider at zero but I add a bit of muscle. Mr. Lee was an amazing specimen, but no one would ever call him bulky.

If I want to make the Arnold, I keep fat at zero and crank the muscle up to 11.

If I want to make Adam West as Batman, I bring muscle mass down to 4 and fat up to 4.

If I want to make a Sumo Wrestler, I crank the muscle back up to like 8, and bring the fat up to 9.

But I also realize that if two separate programs have to use a fitness/defnition slider as well as a muscle/bulk slider as well as a weight/fat slider, then there must be something in the way those programs calculate the morph of the body which requires all three sliders.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Yep. Got it. Look, Lothic, you are obviously aware that it's not what you say as much as the snide tone in which you say it, so don't act innocent and I won't act defensive. LOL I'm just saying, I have been amply answered regarding what a silly question mine was. Period. Dot. I'll think twice about asking any further questions.

Sadly I think you have taken my "tone" regarding this far more negatively than intended. I don't think I ever implied your basic concern/question here was "silly".

But frankly given the potential legalities involved (as in giving NCsoft even the tiniest of legitimate reasons to sue this game) I simply don't think it's "prudent" for players in general to foster any more connections back to CoH than reasonably necessary. It's just a common sense thing for the welfare of this game as a whole, not a direct criticism leveled at you personally.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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My character will also be

My character will also be from The Game That Must Not Be Named

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

But I also realize that if two separate programs have to use a fitness/defnition slider as well as a muscle/bulk slider as well as a weight/fat slider, then there must be something in the way those programs calculate the morph of the body which requires all three sliders.

It seems like ideally we'd want these multiple sliders in order to create body combinations that (for lack of a better phrase) is greater than the sum of its parts.

For example I agree that the terms "fat" and "muscle definition" seem to be contradictory in layman's terms but if we have access to these various sliders (regardless of terms) in the game it sounds like we'll have the most freedom to create almost any body type that "merges" elements of all these morph controls into things that obviously would not be possible without all the sliders working together in concert.

So ultimately I'm not really going to care exactly which "words" the Devs use to describe these various things in this game. As long as we have access to the multiple sliders and can use them to create any/all of these body variations I'll likely be happy with that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

My character will also be from The Game That Must Not Be Named

Several of mine will be too. I'm simply not going to say that literally in my character bios. YMMV.

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Wait, what is the game that

Wait, what is the game that must not be named? WoW?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Wait, what is the game that must not be named? WoW?

COH, lol

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We can't name that game now?!

We can't name that game now?! :o

I'm totally rebooting my character. Same but different. I ported her over to CO when CoH went down, and regretted it. Best to reboot (or just plain new)!

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Your lexicon may make sense to the users of a particular software program, but the players of CoT shouldn't have to bring a Daz-to-English dictionary with them when they create a character.

That's your problem? The word 'definition'?
Fine call it hula hoop for all I care. I used 'definition', 'bulk', and 'weight' because they common terms I am familiar with. Yes even iclone uses it for certain morphs. Zbrush, Maya, Blender, Dazstudio ect ect ect all use the terms depending on who created the morph.
Here I thought you didn't understand how morphs work but in reality you don't understand how they work and want to nit pick a common terminology.

If all you want to do is fight about terminology I am not interested. If you still don't understand how a weight morph and a definition morph are different and how using the same dial to control both is more restrictive then google is your friend.
Have a nice day.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Your lexicon may make sense to the users of a particular software program, but the players of CoT shouldn't have to bring a Daz-to-English dictionary with them when they create a character.

That's your problem? The word 'definition'?
Fine call it hula hoop for all I care. I used 'definition', 'bulk', and 'weight' because they common terms I am familiar with. Yes even iclone uses it for certain morphs. Zbrush, Maya, Blender, Dazstudio ect ect ect all use the terms depending on who created the morph.
Here I thought you didn't understand how morphs work but in reality you don't understand how they work and want to nit pick a common terminology.

If all you want to do is fight about terminology I am not interested. If you still don't understand how a weight morph and a definition morph are different and how using the same dial to control both is more restrictive then google is your friend.
Have a nice day.

No that wasn't my problem. And if you really think that was, then either you have a reading comprehension problem or I was not clear enough. And, honestly, you haven't done a good job of explaining it either. I know you tried, but your reasons are empty. Your reasons are "because these programs have it, look at my examples."

However, if you can explain to me why I can't reproduce your "bulk" body with a combination of muscle mass and fat, then you will have made your point.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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There's a disagreement in

There's a disagreement in every other thread. All this pent up frustration of not being able to swarm the streets of a superhero mmo are reaching a boiling point! lol

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I'm wondering what's the

I'm wondering what's the youngest and oldest we'll be able to make our characters look.

Will we be able to make kid sidekicks?

Decrepit old villains?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Fat is one slider. Bulk is

Fat is one slider. Bulk is one slider (big bones). Muscle is one slider (the basic shape). And Muscle definition is a slider. All are independent.

And that goes for female as well. ALL of them.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I'm wondering what's the youngest and oldest we'll be able to make our characters look.

Will we be able to make kid sidekicks?

Decrepit old villains?

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl. I portrayed her by using the shortest, skinniest settings (although she was a Str/Invuln Tanker). Unfortunately, despite the lowest setting, she still had a chest, which, while most people I interacted with regularly were good about ignoring, still made it a little jarring. It would be great if we could make actual pre-pubescents. Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

Shocking Blu

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Your lexicon may make sense to the users of a particular software program, but the players of CoT shouldn't have to bring a Daz-to-English dictionary with them when they create a character.

That's your problem? The word 'definition'?
Fine call it hula hoop for all I care. I used 'definition', 'bulk', and 'weight' because they common terms I am familiar with. Yes even iclone uses it for certain morphs. Zbrush, Maya, Blender, Dazstudio ect ect ect all use the terms depending on who created the morph.
Here I thought you didn't understand how morphs work but in reality you don't understand how they work and want to nit pick a common terminology.

If all you want to do is fight about terminology I am not interested. If you still don't understand how a weight morph and a definition morph are different and how using the same dial to control both is more restrictive then google is your friend.
Have a nice day.

No that wasn't my problem. And if you really think that was, then either you have a reading comprehension problem or I was not clear enough. And, honestly, you haven't done a good job of explaining it either. I know you tried, but your reasons are empty. Your reasons are "because these programs have it, look at my examples."

However, if you can explain to me why I can't reproduce your "bulk" body with a combination of muscle mass and fat, then you will have made your point.

Let it go, Brainbot. You keep getting into these rancorous arguments. With Lothic it was understandable, but really... breathe. You're going to ruin your health! LOL

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Also, muscle over fat isn't

Also, muscle over fat isn't that much of an outrageous notion. Or fat over muscle (see present day Arnold Schwarzenegger). The Marvel villain Kingpin looks like a sumo wrestler, but none of it is actually fat, it's all muscle, although it looks like fat (comics Physics). So this shouldn't be any weirder than making a woman who looks like a man. Just another character.

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That's awesome~!! I sounds

That's awesome~!! I sounds like a really cool system to play around with, buh... Will the female model be able to reach similar extremes to the male though...? Because that's a entirely different question, and ya gotta answer it if you want my pizza bribe! XD

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I have seen a character that

I have seen a character that was carrying an unborn evil god and had been for 500000 years. the pregnancy was frozen magically and gave her super powers. as long as the god was not reborn the earth was safe.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I'm wondering what's the youngest and oldest we'll be able to make our characters look.

Will we be able to make kid sidekicks?

Decrepit old villains?

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl. I portrayed her by using the shortest, skinniest settings (although she was a Str/Invuln Tanker). Unfortunately, despite the lowest setting, she still had a chest, which, while most people I interacted with regularly were good about ignoring, still made it a little jarring. It would be great if we could make actual pre-pubescents. Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

look in SWTOR on corouscant republic side. they have a quest giver that is an 8 year old girl with a full rack. kinda creepy really

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I had two characters that

I had two characters that were prepubescent girls and I used Costume tricks to cover the chest bumps.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

No that wasn't my problem. And if you really think that was, then either you have a reading comprehension problem or I was not clear enough. And, honestly, you haven't done a good job of explaining it either. I know you tried, but your reasons are empty. Your reasons are "because these programs have it, look at my examples."

However, if you can explain to me why I can't reproduce your "bulk" body with a combination of muscle mass and fat, then you will have made your point.

My reading comprehension is just fine thank you.
My reasons for what? Why I use a specific terminology? So what is it, are you upset with my terminology or not?
Regardless, my examples were to give you a visual representation of the terms I used (more than you have done) and are not because of any program. The example were to help explain how morphs are made and work. They change a model from one form to another based on an actual remodeling of the original figure. As in someone took the original model and painstakingly adjusted it to look fat or muscular or defined, turned it into a morph, then applied it to the original model so you can change that original model incrementally into the new form that was designed. At zero you have the base model, at .5 you have a half morphed into 'fat' figure and at 1 you have the final result of the 'fat' figure.
Morphs are not some procedural generation of real world physics. You start with the base figure and go to the desired change, be it defined, muscular or fat. Whatever you want to call the morphs, to get a defined look it is one morph, to get a fat look it is a whole other morph.

And if you want an answer to this current question reproducing my bulk body...well considering you said that muscle mass is your term for what I call bulk, I am not sure what you are asking. Here is where you said that:

Huckleberry wrote:

I use the word muscle mass and you use the word bulk. But they both represent size of the muscles themselves; regardless of fat or definition.

If you think my 'bulk' morph is the same as your 'muscle mass' then what are you even asking here?

I am going to politely suggest you learn more about morphs. All 3d modeling programs have a wealth of tutorials that you can use to understand that real world logic like :

Huckleberry wrote:

Muscle definition is the lack of fat between the muscle tissue and the epidermis.

just does not apply to a 3d morph.

If your reading comprehension is lacking you can look up #AskZbrush on youtube and check out their videos on morphs but I suspect they may be beyond your comprehension as they assume a certain beginner level of understanding 3d modeling.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Let it go, Brainbot. You keep getting into these rancorous arguments. With Lothic it was understandable, but really... breathe. You're going to ruin your health! LOL

As long as you acknowledge when you have disagreements with me on the forums they are not "pointless" I'm fine with that. ;)

This particular dust-up about which "morph terminology" is being used in CoT is truly pointless. I wouldn't really care if the CoT Devs labelled the sliders A, 23skidoo and/or XYZ because eventually I'd figure out how they worked and use them regardless.

Mordheim13 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I'm wondering what's the youngest and oldest we'll be able to make our characters look.

Will we be able to make kid sidekicks?

Decrepit old villains?

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl. I portrayed her by using the shortest, skinniest settings (although she was a Str/Invuln Tanker). Unfortunately, despite the lowest setting, she still had a chest, which, while most people I interacted with regularly were good about ignoring, still made it a little jarring. It would be great if we could make actual pre-pubescents. Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

There have been several previous threads on these topics in the last few years. The basic answer from the Devs suggest that the female character model of CoT will be able to be set with a nearly "flat" chest so that making pre-pubescents (or simply adult females who are waifishly thin) should be much more feasible than it was in CoH. This was great news when the Devs confirmed this and I've been looking forward to seeing just how this is going to work out in the actual character creator.

As far as "decrepit old" characters go I think based on the one set of character model gifs we saw not too long ago (a few months ago IIRC) we're also going to be able to create relatively decent looking "frail/old" characters as well.

Fireheart wrote:

I had two characters that were prepubescent girls and I used Costume tricks to cover the chest bumps.

Yes there were a few ways you could "sort-of-kind-of" hide the female chest in CoH with costume tricks but none of them were terribly satisfactory. At the very least it limited you to only using a certain few costume items in order to even vaguely manage it convincingly. As I said I think we're going to have a much easier time with this in CoT.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl... [Snip] ...Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

They let a 5 yr old in Pocet D?!?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl... [Snip] ...Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

They let a 5 yr old in Pocet D?!? Someone should have had a talk with DJ Zero. That ain't right.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl... [Snip] ...Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

They let a 5 yr old in Pocet D?!? Someone should have had a talk with DJ Zero. That ain't right.

Yeah I didn't focus too much on that part when I responded to Mordheim13's post. ;)

But to be fair that was kind of the point of his post because even though Mordheim13 wanted to have a young girl character there was really no way to "make" one in CoH without it inevitably looking like a short adult woman with at least a C-cup rack. No one else around that character would likely know it was -supposed- to be a child unless they (I suspect) bothered to read her bio.

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It'd be nice to see generic

It'd be nice to see generic characters at the extremes of the sliders. Just to see what we're in for. It'd probably be great promotional images too sort of a "you can make anything like this and everything in between"

Especially if the characters were put side by side. Super skinny, fat, buff both male and female. Oldest they could make a character look, the youngest they can make them look.

As for pocket D most of my character's reactions to odd things there were just "wow, they let anyone in here." Hopefully we'll have more cool hang out spots that aren't clubs in CoT (I heard there was a mall like area. Perfect for teen heroes to hang out).

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'd be nice to see generic characters at the extremes of the sliders. Just to see what we're in for. It'd probably be great promotional images too sort of a "you can make anything like this and everything in between"

Especially if the characters were put side by side. Super skinny, fat, buff both male and female. Oldest they could make a character look, the youngest they can make them look.

Oh I'd agree I'd like to see as many examples as possible. But like I mentioned earlier they kind of already gave us a hint of these things a few months ago with their bit entitled "How it's Made: Weighing the Model". At the very end of the article they included a summary gif that showed a number of variations for the female model which included among others a "buff" version, a "fat" version, a "waif" version and an "old" version:

Project_Hero wrote:

As for pocket D most of my character's reactions to odd things there were just "wow, they let anyone in here." Hopefully we'll have more cool hang out spots that aren't clubs in CoT (I heard there was a mall like area. Perfect for teen heroes to hang out).

A mall would be great for teenaged heroes... back in like 1985. ;)

I'm joking of course. I have nothing against having malls and other similar places in CoT. It's just that malls aren't really the "cool hangouts" they once were.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

This is of interest to me due to one of my toons, who was a 5 (later 6) year-old girl... [Snip] ...Hopefully then, when CoT's version of Pocket D comes out, she can run around there without people hitting on her!

They let a 5 yr old in Pocet D?!? Someone should have had a talk with DJ Zero. That ain't right.

Yeah I didn't focus too much on that part when I responded to Mordheim13's post. ;)

But to be fair that was kind of the point of his post because even though Mordheim13 wanted to have a young girl character there was really no way to "make" one in CoH without it inevitably looking like a short adult woman with at least a C-cup rack. No one else around that character would likely know it was -supposed- to be a child unless they (I suspect) bothered to read her bio.

Yeah, my IC reasoning was that, as an established Heroine (one of, if not THE youngest in Paragon City), she had the ability to go there as part of her License. Besides which, she made friends very easily (even most PC Villains she encountered adored her) so DJ Zero let her in and kinda watched out for her. Soft drinks and candy stocked at the bar (and probably not just for her), that kind of thing. On the occasions that someone did hit on her, I would refer them to my Bio with a Tell. If they persisted, I would Broadcast on "Shout": "I need a 'DULT!" Most people didn't stick around after that, and quite often others in the area would intervene anyway. Plus, most of the time I would be there with members of my SG. So, it was handleable, but still a pain. As Lothic says, hopefully they will provide means to make flat-chested characters, whether you want to make a Punky Brewster character, or Kate Moss/Keira Knightley. Not every grown woman, even, is a C-cup or higher, darn it! :)
Also, I echo the hope for some gathering places besides just a club. It was a great idea, and provided an excellent reason for Heroes and Villains to be able to be the same places without fisticuffs, but surely there are equally good ideas for the purpose, as well. We have, hopefully, evolved to a point of finding common ground beyond alcohol and disco dancing! LOL

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'd be nice to see generic characters at the extremes of the sliders. Just to see what we're in for. It'd probably be great promotional images too sort of a "you can make anything like this and everything in between"

Especially if the characters were put side by side. Super skinny, fat, buff both male and female. Oldest they could make a character look, the youngest they can make them look.

Oh I'd agree I'd like to see as many examples as possible. But like I mentioned earlier they kind of already gave us a hint of these things a few months ago with their bit entitled "How it's Made: Weighing the Model". At the very end of the article they included a summary gif that showed a number of variations for the female model which included among others a "buff" version, a "fat" version, a "waif" version and an "old" version:

Project_Hero wrote:

As for pocket D most of my character's reactions to odd things there were just "wow, they let anyone in here." Hopefully we'll have more cool hang out spots that aren't clubs in CoT (I heard there was a mall like area. Perfect for teen heroes to hang out).

A mall would be great for teenaged heroes... back in like 1985. ;)

I'm joking of course. I have nothing against having malls and other similar places in CoT. It's just that malls aren't really the "cool hangouts" they once were.

Thanks for posting the slide. The problem with trying to keep current with "teen hangouts' is that unless you have something like a skate park, you'd pretty much be out of luck. Where do young people "hang out" now? They have iphones for that. They never have to leave their rooms, if they want to interact. LOL That is a serious question, though, curiosity-wise. What is the modern equivalent of the mall as far as teen hangouts?

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Some of us prefer the Library

Some of us prefer the Library Lounge.

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That sounds amazing!

That sounds amazing!

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Mordheim13]As Lothic says,
Mordheim13 wrote:

As Lothic says, hopefully they will provide means to make flat-chested characters, whether you want to make a Punky Brewster character, or Kate Moss/Keira Knightley. Not every grown woman, even, is a C-cup or higher, darn it! :)

Just to be clear I really have nothing against the typical Power Girl type superheroine. I'll probably eventually make a few of those in CoT. But I always envisioned a couple of my more favorite long-time characters to look a little more like Milla Jovovich who would never be considered "overly top-heavy" by anyone.

Basically I was always a little bummed that CoH wouldn't let me create a woman with a realistically waifish figure.

Mordheim13 wrote:

That is a serious question, though, curiosity-wise. What is the modern equivalent of the mall as far as teen hangouts?

I'm way to old IRL to have a clue about that lol.

Fireheart wrote:

Some of us prefer the Library Lounge.

NERD!... j/k.

TBH I actually have a few characters who would likely hangout at a library despite it being a bit anachronistic in 2018.

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Frankly, I see many late

Frankly, I see many late teens hanging out in both coffee shops and media hubs like Barns n Noble or Hastings but those are likely the nerdier ones. Our oldest was a homebody and the younger was more athletic always doing stuff, not really “hanging” anywhere long. I guess I’m pretty out of touch with the teen scene.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

Frankly, I see many late teens hanging out in both coffee shops and media hubs like Barns n Noble or Hastings but those are likely the nerdier ones. Our oldest was a homebody and the younger was more athletic always doing stuff, not really “hanging” anywhere long. I guess I’m pretty out of touch with the teen scene.

Yeah I figured there'd be something like a Starbucks in this game on every street corner. The CoT Devs ought to call theirs something like "Novajacks" or some-such equally "on-the-nose". ;)

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Just call it "Free Wifi".

Just call it "Free Wifi". Kids can't get enough bandwidth these days.

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SkyHigh with free wifi!

SkyHigh with free wifi!

Wednesday’s nerds night bring your portables and SkyHigh mugs for buy one get one free all night.

Friday Rave night starting at midnight! Ladies get first cup free!

Make it a space needle style building with the coffee shop top floor!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

SkyHigh with free wifi!

Wednesday’s nerds night bring your portables and SkyHigh mugs for buy one get one free all night.

Friday Rave night starting at midnight! Ladies get first cup free!

Make it a space needle style building with the coffee shop top floor!

You want to have a chain of coffee shops that would likely exist every on every street (as real life Starbucks seem to do) to each be a building that looks like the Space Needle? Maybe we could have one building be a Space Needle clone in the city but let's not conflate that with the ever ubiquitous coffee shop idea. ;)

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No just the one it needs to

No just the one it needs to be unique.

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If you want to capture the

If you want to capture the authentic Starbucks experience, you have to model their ability to squeeze into nooks and crannies in the darnedest of places, including inside other stores.

In one direction from my house, I have a free-standing Starbucks across the parking lot from Target, which has a Starbucks inside. The free-standing Starbucks used to be in a tiny space in a strip mall right next to the Target.

In the other direction, there’s a Market District with a Starbucks inside right next to a Barnes & Noble with a Starbucks inside. Joke’s on them, though. I prefer the local chain in the next strip mall over that was there years before Starbucks moved into Pittsburgh. And did I mention the Caribou that used to be in between the local and the two Starbucks? It became a Peet’s after Caribou left the region, then became a Chipotle after Peet’s left the region. And the crazy part is that none of those coffee shop locations were ever struggling for customers.

tl;dr: You could slap a $FICTIONAL_COFFEE_SHOP_WITH_MOBY_DICK_RELATED_NAME sign on any piece of architecture, no matter how fancy or mundane, and it will still make perfect sense.

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SisterSilicon wrote:
SisterSilicon wrote:

If you want to capture the authentic Starbucks experience, you have to model their ability to squeeze into nooks and crannies in the darnedest of places, including inside other stores.

In one direction from my house, I have a free-standing Starbucks across the parking lot from Target, which has a Starbucks inside. The free-standing Starbucks used to be in a tiny space in a strip mall right next to the Target.

In the other direction, there’s a Market District with a Starbucks inside right next to a Barnes & Noble with a Starbucks inside. Joke’s on them, though. I prefer the local chain in the next strip mall over that was there years before Starbucks moved into Pittsburgh. And did I mention the Caribou that used to be in between the local and the two Starbucks? It became a Peet’s after Caribou left the region, then became a Chipotle after Peet’s left the region. And the crazy part is that none of those coffee shop locations were ever struggling for customers.

tl;dr: You could slap a $FICTIONAL_COFFEE_SHOP_WITH_MOBY_DICK_RELATED_NAME sign on any piece of architecture, no matter how fancy or mundane, and it will still make perfect sense.

They could even become a new villain faction for the game. On the surface they just appear like an over-exposed coffee chain. But scratch the surface and you realize they are a Yakuza-style mob with "front" locations in every neighborhood. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

They could even become a new villain faction for the game. On the surface they just appear like an over-exposed coffee chain. But scratch the surface and you realize they are a Yakuza-style mob with "front" locations in every neighborhood. ;)

I'm sure in a comic-book world with supers every other organization would be a front for something else, and the name would always give it away.

Daylight Donuts would probably be a front for a multi-national group of vampire hunters.
Royal Dutch Shell would probably be owned by Atlantians.
Starbucks would be controlled by deer-like aliens spying on Earth.

I could go on, but my examples are getting dumber.

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Spurn all ye kindle.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Fat is one slider. Bulk is one slider (big bones). Muscle is one slider (the basic shape). And Muscle definition is a slider. All are independent.

And that goes for female as well. ALL of them.

Good to know! Thank you!

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Basically I was always a little bummed that CoH wouldn't let me create a woman with a realistically waifish figure.

Same here.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I think it really depends on

I think it really depends on how much there is to do in a given town/city on where teens hang out. I worked mall security not that many years ago and there were still teens that hung out in there. Though the mall did offer free WiFi too, so there is that.

A coffee shop chain that's a front for a evil organization is a great idea. Forget poisoning the water supply they could just add something to the coffee... Or better yet, have the coffee shop have started out as a front for evil but then the villain found they were making mad profits and didn't want to rock the boat.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

My reading comprehension is just fine thank you.
My reasons for what?

Your reasons for why we need a definition slider.

Because, let's not forget, this whole discussion was started because you stated that the CoT character generator were missing the Definition slider. Thus, it is upon you to provide reasons why.

brainbot wrote:

They change a model from one form to another based on an actual remodeling of the original figure. As in someone took the original model and painstakingly adjusted it to look fat or muscular or defined, turned it into a morph, then applied it to the original model so you can change that original model incrementally into the new form that was designed. At zero you have the base model, at .5 you have a half morphed into 'fat' figure and at 1 you have the final result of the 'fat' figure.
Morphs are not some procedural generation of real world physics. You start with the base figure and go to the desired change, be it defined, muscular or fat. Whatever you want to call the morphs, to get a defined look it is one morph, to get a fat look it is a whole other morph.

Now we're getting somewhere. So when you combine two or more different morphs you are actually using an additive property to combine their effects upon the base model into a sum result. Each is an independent driver. So we could actually have even more morphs, with each morph being a different and unique end product. We could have Stickman, Stocky Dwarf, and any other number of target bodies that we can apply as morph sliders.

And if I understand you correctly, we can not have just a fat slider and a muscle slider because driving towards the fat target is driving towards a target with wimpy shoulders and a saggy chest. Trying to add some "fat" to a high muscle-mass body would then necessarily reduce the appearance of some of that muscle in the chest and shoulders and it would not look like the "bulk" figure. In other words, the muscle mass slider would drive us to a +10 in shoulder size, but the fat slider would drive us to only a +4 in should size. Maxing both sliders would end up with only a +7 in shoulder size. (I am using numbers to illustrate the concept, not any actual representation of program code). So if we want a body to have both muscle mass and fat, we will need to make a third target that includes both. This way we will be able to use that slider to get the +10 shoulders we want, while at the same time providing a healthy dose of padding.

I think I get it.

I really wish you would have stayed away from all the snarky comments. But I think we got the end result I was looking for nonetheless.

So, if CoT does not have a definition slider, how do you think they will be providing all the malleability we desire? Or do you think that they really are missing something necessary?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

So, if CoT does not have a definition slider, how do you think they will be providing all the malleability we desire? Or do you think that they really are missing something necessary?

Shadow Elusive wrote:

Fat is one slider. Bulk is one slider (big bones). Muscle is one slider (the basic shape). And Muscle definition is a slider. All are independent.

And that goes for female as well. ALL of them.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

So, if CoT does not have a definition slider, how do you think they will be providing all the malleability we desire? Or do you think that they really are missing something necessary?

Shadow Elusive wrote:

Fat is one slider. Bulk is one slider (big bones). Muscle is one slider (the basic shape). And Muscle definition is a slider. All are independent.

And that goes for female as well. ALL of them.

Just while we're busy driving this particular point into the ground is there any merit to what Brainbot was talking about in terms of giving the female body model a 5th "voluptuous" slider? The following quote from earlier in this thread re-explains the idea:

Brainbot wrote:

Now these same types of morphs can be used on female models as well (with some obvious adjustments) but female models would probably benefit from another morph as well, voluptuous which is mostly just breast and hip morphs. I would prefer if they could be split into two morphs but I don't expect or require it. So for females you could recreate almost any body type with 5 morphs (6 if you split voluptuous into 2), weight, bulk, definition, [Muscle] and voluptuous. From Spiderman's Mary Jane to DC's Wonder Woman.

It would seem like the female body model could benefit from something like this.

P.S. I edited [Muscle] into Brainbot's quote (he had listed "height" there) just to reflect the main four morphs you clearly defined.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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