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But really, how much wildlife do you expect to run into in northeastern Massachusetts? I can understand rodents of usual size and the occasional deer, but nearly-extinct tigers which were never native to America? Maybe in a zoo, but that doesn't seem to be your goal...
Tech wise, this really depends on getting quadrupedal motions right, and I'd expect to see animals wandering about around the same time you see them available as summonable pets.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
My last paragraph
"I would like to request consideration for wildlife. Maybe some areas would be based upon Africa with lions or rhinos, or maybe India with tigers and elephants. I don't know, wildlife just makes games appear more realistic instead of empty areas with trees and some humans."
CO had them in the form of bears and wolves in the Canadian Wilderness or the the ocean area with sharks.
Technically, wolves or wild dogs are found in some cities, but I am referring to the outside of the actual busy city. No I will not usually see a fox or bear wandering around my street, but in my county within some forest or bush? Yep. Depends on if you are in the woods or an suburban area. CO had Canada, the ocean area, and monster island.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Skunks and opossums are pretty common in Chicago. That's a different type of city and we were on the north side (Lincoln sq area) We watched a skunk from our balcony for about an hour one day. It was snooping about a house across the street. Or it was a black cat that had a run in with some wet white paint.
IIRC they recently caught a coyote right downtown. No word on the road runner. If it were me I'd expect to see rare instances of the previous creatures and more often see stray dogs and cats, and flying rats.
I'd not be averse to seeing stray lab animals. *puts on Radiac hat* in GW2 there is an event where a Asura is performing and experiment and all his creatures break free. dozens of mini pigs moa and other animals run around and the players have to catch them. They are actually slimes disguised as mini animals.
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Yea, is it Chi-Town that has coy wolves? They say these dogs see people going about their business or children playing at a play ground, but people are unaware. Maybe that is why they are called coy wolves. they appear to be see people, but avoid them? More likely because they are affiliated with coyotes me think. They rarely attack people, maybe that is why they are ghost.
That GW event sounds pretty neat. World Of Warcraft had numerous critters wandering around, and wolves would even attack and kill smaller stuff like rabbits. Then my character would attack the wolves, then a bear would come out of nowhere and aggro me.I dont expect this level of interaction but some creatures inhabiting specific areas would be neat.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Coy wolves are hybrids between coyotes and wolves.
Yea, I seen a documentary on them which stated that, but coy is defined as shy, since they dont really come in contact with people,but coyote is what it is. I was just thinking about the word coy.
On the topic of VO and pets, maybe VO should have cricket pets? They have been very quiet lately. That video footage may have been did more harm than good? They are getting hammered on numerous sites. They seem to love SoH footage, not really feeling VO. That has to sting. This MMO came out of nowhere and have not begun the kickstarter and wowed more people than VO ever has, and they have been releasing stuff for years now, but nothing which gave anyone hope. Placeholders aside, SoH footage gives players hope. VO was kind of discouraging because they keep using terms such as Steam or Alpha.
If they would have never mentioned alpha or steam, I would cut them some slack. They are getting a little ahead of themselves.VO needs to lower their expectations and do away with the stages, keep the process to yourself until you have something worthwhile to show, like SoH.
You know what I really like about SoH? They do not over promise like VO. They dont tell their fans soon, but give them a straight, respectful answer. Silverhelm comes off as the DCUO devs do. I am sensing a little DCUO staff team over there. Lack of communication, over promises, broken promises, do not respect their fans enough to give a modest answer. Something about these people are very DCUO, I really dont trust them.
We need to stop worrying about how SoH got to where they did so "quickly", and be more concerned with how VO has not done much of anything since announcing the title in 2013 if memory serves me.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
TECHNICALLY I wear a cowl, not a hat. But whatever. It's Light Headgear anyway. It has `zerker stats. :)
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
http://massivelyop.com/2017/03/13/ship-of-heroes-will-seek-400000-in-kickstarter-funding/
A playable alpha is slated for late 2017!!!!!
I think they are attempting to be the first playable successor, not like VO pre-alpha. VO was playable, but I wondered why they even allowed anyone to play it. VO was bad. Other titles can release early game play, but it would be foolish to do so. SoH are skipping over several features to be added later, in attempt to release at a faster rate. I think they are trying to get out the door before CoT which may be wise. CoT has features SoH wont have until a later date, but one has to wonder if they are attempting to gain a competitive edge?
Allow me to explain, maybe they plan on capturing the starving superhero mmo crowd first. This would make them the "Good guys" Maybe they will capture the masses first, then someone like me will say "SoH does not have pets, CoT does" SoH will then show off pets as a planned feature.
"SoH does not have animal features" They go on to show off future animal features
These guys are super savvy, get out first, build upon other features at a later date to fend off competitors. If they have these features planned, they will not lose players to other successors because they have already captured all of the CoH fanbase. The CoH fanbase will not leave. Why? Although CoT and Vaporware Online have features they currently do not, these features may not be in the alpha until later, so SoH can also choose to release these features later.
Pet powers and Animal features are a few things they are holding off on to finish the job early.
We are dealing with a savvy group here folks. They are a real threat. There is not room for four or five of the same games. SoH knows this, and will capture the starving CoH fanbase first, while using their starvation for another superhero title against the other successors. This will make the others look like the "Bad guys." Broken promises and vaporware are what people associate these successor with, SoH will be viewed as the one whom came through, or the first to come through. CoH fans will appreciate that.
Like I said in the SoH discussion, they are the top dog and are legit. Now others are seeing what I have been screaming in that thread. 2017 is the date they are aiming for playable content. VO's video compared to theirs was telling, and now, we see that their video was better, and they are further ahead, like I was saying.
"Kickstarter contributors will be among the first to play since they get to be in the free Beta, and the Alpha participants will also be chosen from among the backers. Alphas begin in late 2017 or early 2018. Beta is likely in late 2018."
Now.....lets see how their kickstarter does. If they fail here, it would be interesting to see if they remain the top dog, what are their other plans? Maybe they have a backup plan, because their progress is superior to other indie projects at this stage. Perhaps they went into this with the notion that the KS will fail?
The video was used as a sells pitch. VO relied upon their faith in the masses for their kickstarer and failed as a result. SoH did not want to make that mistake. Watch their KS page, should be interesting. I expect them to pump out something else before the KS.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Late 2017 for Alpha is highly ambitious considering the material shown. Good luck to them.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Should be interesting
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I feel that Valiance's biggest problem is an inconsistent PR focus. I think their Kickstarter might have done better if they had kept their focus. (Though to be fair I think even COT wouldn't have done as well as it did if it hadn't managed to do its Kickstarter when COX's demise was so fresh in the mind of its fans.) I want Valiance to succeed because I feel like they're trying very hard, and I've always been a sucker for the underdog.
That being said, I am a supporter of COT, VO, and I will support the SOH Kickstarter when it comes out. I see nothing wrong with having more than one choice. In an industry with dozens of fantasy games, there are currently only three active super hero mmos that I know about. If you can have so many fantasy-oriented games I see no reason why the super hero genre can't support half a dozen MMOS-- if they're good.
Agreed. I don't know about all this "threat" talk is about. Every project will do their best and we'll see what happens.
Personally, regardless of sooner or later, I like what CoT is going for best. But what will be will be.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Super hero mmorpgs are not as popular as fantasy to begin with, so having 4 would be clutter, and benefit none. Lets take the two superhero titles currently out now, DCUO and CO. CO is a ghost town and DCUO has its' own unique set of issues. Both have limited funds and a small group working on them. You don't hear stuff like this from the top fantasy mmos. Whom is the top superhero MMO? Maybe DCUO, but yet, DCUO is far from a AAA mmo.
So we have 4 titles from a genre of mmo which are not well received to begin with? I think that would be a problem. Nobody has been able to take advantage of the lack of competition in the genre. This is because the genre is not popular to begin with.
There has never been a AAA superhero mmo, CoH came the close, but where is that game now? There are tons of AAA fantasy titles. I think of it this way, multiple shops on the same block catering to the same niche audience.
CoT will be fine, VO is a non-factor and the feel good story. Heroes and villains are in the same boat.
CoT and SoH is where everyone's attention should be focused.
The "Vaporware" smell is fresh within the CoH community, if these guys whom came out of nowhere can be the first to dispel that notion, they would be loved by many. Every CoH fan would flock to them,
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Quite honestly, the nostalgia feeling of the past 2-3 months has already faded away.
That's all I'm going to say.
*goes back to the cave*
Charles Logan
www.cloganart.com
Threat talk? Well, it goes like this, mmos cost money, to play to its' full potential. I do not know anyone whom will put subs into 4 different games, notably 4 superhero games. Maybe they do exist, but I do not know anyone. We are not in a utopia, this is a competition, reason other mmo forums do not allow posting of other games, it is seen as advertising.
As much as we want to convince ourselves, 6 superhero mmos are not going to thrive. There are no superhero mmos thriving atm even. We will have DCUO, what is left of CO, SoH, CoT, VO, and heroes and villains. Superhero mmorpgs are not like its' fantasy counterparts, there have been zero AAA super hero mmos, ever. Now we will have 6 competing? DCUO fans may stay with the game which they invested much time and money into, and having the DC franchise helps.
I joke about DCUO shutting down when these games release, but it will not be a cakewalk to steal fans away from a DC franchise.
Every game in this small niche is a threat because there are zero prospering at the moment, only surviving with limited funds and small teams of devs.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Here's the thing.
COT is being run by volunteers. I believe Valiance is a small studio trying to break into the industry. Ship of Heroes also seems to be a starter effort as is Heroes and Villains.
Dc Online and Champions Online are being run by professional studios staffed with experienced developers. There is no realistic way that any of the successor effort scan match the resources of professional studios. Now that being said, the overhead for those games (even CO) is going to be much higher than the successors. So that's the real advantage the successors have IMO.
That being said, none of us know what the successors will have to make to consider themselves successful, but I sincerely doubt that any of them are going to put DC Online-- or even Champions Online out of business. However, I think any or all of them can be successful enough to survive.
And who knows?
Maybe COT or VO or H&V or Ship of Heroes (SOT?) will find the magic ticket and exceed all our expectations.
In general agreed.
And I think the Superhero vs Sword & Sorcery genre thing, while significant, may be less important than whether, in the end, a particular game is a good, fun game to play or not.
I mean, it's possible that this proliferation of projects will actually be the Doompocalypse for Superhero MMORPGs, but I personally wouldn't bet on it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
All of them can survive, but that is not saying much. EQ is still online, and they have the worst developers in the business backing them up, DBG.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
https://valiance.shogn.net/forums
Great job of moderating your community
Man, they just dont give a damn about the project or their community, how does people still support them? I think it is safe to say this project is done. I think they will release alpha, only to can it after feedback from the players. They are playing it safe by letting a few select supporters who will probably not bad talk them into the testing phase. What a mess.
In other news the big SoH KS countdown is a little less than 17 hours away. Wonder how they will do?
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
wtf their "popular topics" are all spam posts.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Yea
In other news, SoH looks fantastic, I cant believe some people actually tried to say VO looked better. The only person whom would agree with them is Snoop Dogg, and we all know what his current state usually is.
Their KS is moving rather quickly, we shall see how it goes. Already surpassed VO funds and their site has been up for a few years now I believe.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Spam finally cleared, and the natives are restless.
They release new photos of the game, still not impressed considering the fireworks SOH displayed. VO still looks like the weaker of the three. SoH > CoT > VO
Both SoH and CoT are planning to release some playable content in 2018, this should be interesting and great for all those fed up with DayBroke Universe Online and Champions Online.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
SOH < COT
[color=Red]Senior Gameplay Engineer.[/color]
I mean in terms of what was shown or the progress. CoT combat video had place holders if I remember correctly, while SoH had actual game-play footage. In terms of what looks to be the better game, I am willing to put my money on CoT. If the henchmen customization is happening, CoT is superior because of that alone. SoH will not even have pet powers at launch. I think they only have four powers set for release.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
^This.
SOH had to cancel their Kickstarter, so I'm not sure how it can be 'further along' than anything. They showed some supposed in-game footage that looked to me like it was essentially a rehash of the same stuff from CoH a decade ago, though perhaps not even as good. I expect more from a current game.
(insert pithy comment here)
I dont see the resemblance in terms of graphic quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVaWYYlOfGU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2NdvrTORZI
The three body frames are what you are referring to? Yea they look a little familiar.
SoH has the best character creator and game-play footage to date, they are further along.
The CoT video from 2016 even opened up saying this was prototype work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU23rNGEyc8
It is clear to see the superior project here in terms of progress and quality.
SoH > all in terms of progress
CoT > SoH in terms of potential
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Your opinion, apparently not shared by all. IMO, I could get better footage from Paragon Chat.
(insert pithy comment here)
In regards to SoH - it's really not that difficult to get something basic working using pre-built assets (*cough* steam greenlight *cough*). A nice UI is good to have, but there is a lot more that has to go into a game underneath it, so it is no indicator of the "maturity" of the game. The game may indeed see the light of day eventually, but at the moment not enough people were buying what they were trying to sell (if their kickstarter was any indication).
As for Valiance, according to one of the devs (IronSight), the following video is an example of their visual effects designer's work in Unity. It's not necessarily what's going to be in the game, but it's some good stuff - can't wait to see what our devs can whip up in UE4.
[youtube=720x405]JzezSQdKJoA[/youtube]
Today, it is easy for any group to put together the basics of a game using a starter kit. We find such kits for both Unity and Unreal. But the ease with which one can get these highly polished kits can inadvertently give the impression of more progress than has really occurred. I know with CoT, we had to fight hard to purposefully *not* look more complete than we were.
Here, let me give an example. This is an internal screenshot of ours from October. Most people who would have seen this would have taken it as "hey, the UI's ready to go." In fact, it was a quick mock-up using one of these Starter Kits, so I was not staring at boring blocks as I worked.
Total time: 30 minutes mocking it up. How much will be used for the final UI? Likely not much.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Insightful. I like it.
Reminder: Lighting needs to be rebuilt.
How you can tell it's me at work: Lighting *always* needs to be rebuilt.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Ahem. While individual members of City of Titans may have their own opinions, we, as a whole, wish the various successors the best of luck - the most important thing is that a good new game happens.
We are a community, and I refuse to allow any effort to divide us. I will extend the hand of brotherhood and inclusion to all successors.
We've been working hard on providing something better - increasing our quality and flexibility - making something that can compete with an AAA game like, er... Mass Effect: Andromeda.
(Admittedly, they made it easy for us)
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lighting-needs-to-be-rebuilt-unreal-engine-podcast/id1124285939?mt=2 That is, parenthetically, the name of my favorite Unreal Engine podcast: The Lighting Needs To Be Rebuilt.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Oooo, Burn!
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
You can try at least
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
If it is not that difficult, then more KS projects would do it.
It is all about looking good for the masses, I forget whom it was, but someone was criticized, at E3 I believe some time ago for trying to pass off Cut scenes as gameplay. If you can make yourself look good, you will jump at the opportunity to get some "Pre-built assets" going. If any KS project could show off some footage, they would. Some don't, because they can't.
Btw, VO sure looks different in that video..
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I really dont want to get another SOH argument going, which is why left that thread and never came back as I have said. Listen, I do not conform. If I see something as just plain bias, I will not conform as the rest do because we are on the CoT message board. I am sorry guys, but SoH has the edge based upon what we know. It is that simple. We can take industry and twist it to fit our arguments, but that does not change the fact that SoH is further along based upon what we see.
I am not in the development room, but based upon what we have seen from every successor, SoH has shown more. That can change tonight, tomorrow or months from now. I am gauging this by what we know. Until I see something, my point stands. I would rather be proven wrong than go by word of mouth.
If CoT were further along, lets see something, I am interested. I am not here to fight. If CoT is further along, lets see something, I have no qualms about being wrong. I apologized to everyone in the SoH thread, and left, per my word. I am a man. No issue being wrong or admitting when I was wrong.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
[youtube]BswGrULkZao[/youtube]
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
And the VO spam is back
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I already seen that one.
The flexibility looks awesome, excited to see what we can do once the game launches.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Rant to follow. Lets stir the pot.
No offense but this sounds like a mixed message to me. You are working hard to provide something better than what? You're going to be AAA and the other successors are...? Are you defining yourself as company or a community? If I worked my tail off for you now as a volunteer with a hope of getting a paycheck later to feed my family I'd tell you in no uncertain terms that the top of MWM is spending too much time extending their hand in the wrong direction. Let's say you make a AAA game. Are you ready to run one? Geez Louise, nobody sez you have to mean and ruthless... but you don't have to play the brotherhood card every time somebody mentions CoT in the same breath as another successor. I'd prefer that you stick to promoting your game and let others do theirs. But since you look at it like one a one big (happy) community that idea doesn't apply. I keep looking for two signs from MWM and so far have gotten neither (1) that CoT is in fact AAA and (2) that MWM is ready in a real world sense to act like a bona fide AAA development company. I'll try and remain patient and It's your choice to act this way but sooner or later something has to give in both areas.
Your argument is akin to the one I hear about the MCU (Marvel Cinematic Universe) and DCEU (DC Extended Universe). That one has to do bad for the other to do good. False. Actuallly want and need both to do good so fans dont eventually think ah these superhero movies suck and stop going to see ANY of them. Plus good movies all around push the competition to up their game and guess who wins then? US THE FANS!
The same applies to this MMO market. A quality superhero MMO will have ppl who play it both hardcore superhero geeks and newcomers looking for something different. With the surge of interest in superheroic geekdom there could be a boom of players. Enough to support multiple games. Look at how many MMOs are on tbe market now. And yet we think only one superhero MMO can survive? Hell there are 3 right now that have been out for years and they continue to survive. Good competition in any industry is a must or then you get whatever they want to give you because whats the alternative? Im a CoT guy through and through but I hope these other projects do well or otherwise ppl may say these superhero MMOs suck and move on.
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/2.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
I must admit those animations and effects are really great. i like them all and i hope CoT will provide us something (regarading prameters of the players) at least great than that :) * hhhhihiiii !! 1'20'' my favorite part !!"
[hr]
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[color=red]PR - Europe[/color]
"We've improved in all areas of production, but I think the area that you'll see the most significant progress in is visual effects and rendering. We're currently implementing aura and some impact effects, but I'm sure that's what people will be most excited to see. Check out the visual effects created by our visual effects designer:"
"You can see he's quite talent and most capable in his department; all of Valiance's abilities have identical quality."
There is absolutely no way the next update will contain animations identical to this. This crazier than SoH's $400,000 goal considering the state of combat in late February.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
In the immortal words of The Dude, Dudeness, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing: "Yeah, well, ya know, that's, like, ah, your opinion, man."
[youtube=720x405]QsogswrH6ck[/youtube]
Why not? Simply because those animations weren't ready for the last update? It wasn't in a presentable state then, it is now. I don't see what's so controversial about that.
Twitter: @SisterSilicon
It took me a while to understand this is what you were doing, but I definitely appreciate the honesty. We can all get fooled by off-the-shelf shinies. Thanks for playing the long game and deciding to weather the potential early criticism in favour of a more solid reputation down the line.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'm not sure what is wrong with thinking VO can make progress either. If I read one of IronSight's following comments correctly then these ARE animations you will see in VO but I will take a wait and see stance.
"He has done some really advanced low-level effects as well. These are being used for many of the high-level ability attacks, but he has done some great work on the low-level attacks too."
[b][color=red]Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.[/color][/b]
We will see I guess
I find it strange that SoH gets accused of suspect footage but people defend general unity footage that is not actual VO footage perse. See, this is why I appear so pro SoH and anti VO because of stuff like this.
I would love for VO to improve so dramatically, but I really doubt they can. It would be awesome to see animations like this, because VO was the only successor to allow the player-base to play it, although it was awful. If VO has animations identical to those unity videos, that means we will be playing VO within a month or two, maybe sooner. I have no issues with that, trust me, I just doubt they can deliver.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
The animations are not really the issue, it's the rig. Getting the rig just right takes a lot of work, and until it's in just right, animations look funky. So, you can have things look utterly horrible forever, and overnight everything looks great.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Savage, VO says a lot of things man lol
Take what they say with a half of grain of salt.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Those Unity animations look great, now the animations VO display do not. The unity video is not labeled VO footage, it is merely general footage of a guy working on stuff, whom supposedly works with VO. If I search VO animations or VO in general, this video does not show up.If they can somehow get something similar in VO, I will be the first to applaud them because I am the first to be harsh on them.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
That's what I am telling you. VO's character model has not yet had its rig optimized in all probability. It certainly doesn't look like it. So, I would be reluctant to dismiss VO for not looking like that video at this point.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
It's now so easy for these game engines to whip up "promo graphics" that look like actual in-game footage that I'm just going to reserve judgement until I'm actually playing the betas. Basically I'll believe what a game can do when I see it "in-game" for myself. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
As Lothic's post suggests, we can speculate and opine all we want--and that's fine, nothing wrong with it--but it's just rampant conjecture until all is said and done. Whether we like it or not.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Indeed.
They are in alpha. Not only alpha, but a playable alpha version was touted to happen in a little bit. One would assume it should start to look a bit more crisp, especially if Steam is a short term goal.
If they want to just throw around the alpha card as a crutch, meaning the development stages are vague and varies from one team to another, that is fine. When you proclaim the game will be on Steam and playable soon, that is not fine. I am not gauging them not only as a project in alpha, but as a project which will be on Steam during alpha. If they would have never mentioned the Steam, fine and dandy, but what they shown displays they are far off in terms of development.
If they pull it off, I will applaud them, history says they will not pull this off.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
And our promise to you is that if you see it, it's something we did - it's real. We don't do promo graphics.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
(the reason being that we don't have time for such things)
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
(or for adding postscripts)
(just kidding)
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
http://thelightingneedstoberebuilt.tumblr.com/ is available...
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I think the gauntlet has been thrown and if you don't mind mixing metaphors, the bar has been set. Let's see what CoT will have to compare.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Man, if CoT can bring that level of graphics to the mechanics, lore, and conceptual artstyle that they have, I will be beside myself with amazement.
I know that UE4 is definitely capable of that level of graphics, but what it takes to actually have that level of graphics ingame in an MMORPG? I have no idea.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
HOLY MOTHER OF.... That's beautiful!! If we get gameplay graphics like that I will like do a backflip or something LOL. Seriously those kind of animations would make this the game to play hands down along with all the other innovations MWM is bringing to the game.
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/2.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
After watching the Unity video I just wanted one animation to approximate the visual effects of the Constantine movie scene where the street lights dim and he fires off the Sulphur ward/light handwrap.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
Hmmmm, SoH video was not legit, but a random Unity video that is not VO perse, but allegedly, VO will have something similar gets praise but the SoH game play video does not and are deemed an eye trick show. Interesting; yea that is very strange indeed. The argument against SoH video went right out the window. as I suspected, it was not really about SoH quality, but resentment.
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/85675
This is a brilliant move though. I believe they are selling this to fund the game? Pretty savy. An alternate route for funding, these guys are smarter than I thought. Masterful idea. Or is that them selling it? I dont know.
I have no idea why SoH gets so much hate, maybe it is not for me to understand nor do I care. I do know now that it has nothing to do with SoH quality, but resentment of the game. I kind of felt that all along, but did not want to come out as a jerk, you know, that guy. It is clear now, so I will drop it.
Now, about VO. If the guy can work the same magic on VO, I will applaud him because we are long overdue for this one to truly show us something. Part of me is disappointed, because VO did not show an actual VO video footage.
This is not a throw down vs CoT, because they did not show actual VO footage. CoT could probably do the same magic show, and sell it on unity if they choose. But they were funded years ago so why bother. It would be cool to see some footage from them though.
CoT vs VO is a joke.
CoT is on track for 2018? VO is on track for soon, for the past year. Yep, the gauntlet was thrown down; CoT threw it down years ago and VO never responded.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I think it can be safely said that VO has [u]not[/u] demonstrated the maturity one would expect after so many years on the drawing boards. I think it is also safe to say that SoH [u]does[/u] demonstrate the level of maturity one would expect from a game that just got announced months ago. Those are two different levels of maturity.
The SoH videos are all being run on a single computer and are just a bunch of packages put together and are probably the product of a couple hundred hours of labor. They illustrate the concept of SoH very well and are an example of excellent marketing. I think your opinions demonstrate that the marketing was somewhat successful. (I think their kickstarter failure had more to do with a saturated marketplace than poor marketing)
The VO videos have demonstrated several computers working together in real time, power interactions, death, respawning, chat, and a whole lot more all simultaneously. These things are more advanced than what was shown in the SoH video. But that doesn't mean that VO is as mature as it should be by now, it just means that it is more mature than what SoH showed. It should be, and I think that is all that anyone has said in this thread.
As for CoT? CoT has shown us some bells and whistles, but it is also not impressing us with anything concrete either. (I can only judge from seeing the publicly available content, not the funder-only content) In fact the CoT website has been so woeful for the past few years that one could wonder if MWM was even serious about their product. The website is getting better now, but the point is made.
Just because people disagree with your assessments, Phararri, doesn't mean we are all on someone else's bandwagon.
[edited to remove some things I shouldn't have written]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
That's a pretty great scene. That movie was a pale comparison to the Hellblazer comic, but it's still a guilty pleasure of mine.
You bring up a good point regarding the MMO aspect. Those power effects look AMAZING in isolation - but what happens when you have 20 people firing off effects at the same time? Like you said UE4 is [I]capable[/I] of pulling stuff like this off, but the question is would it be wise to tone those effects down a tad? Or could this be covered by the player changing the game's graphics settings?
It is in my opinion that the option should be in there for it to be that pretty client-side, and not to possibly exclude a majority of people from playing the game because the graphical hardware requirements are too high. How high is 'too high'? I suppose that's up to the devs, but perhaps it can be roughly determined by looking across the various games out there and seeing what's consistently popular and what their hardware requirements are or what they're expected to be when the game launches.
EPIC AWESOMENESS, that's what :P!!! You remember the big group battles in CoH!
But, yes, the logistics of graphics implementation in a full MMORPG? That, as I said, I have no idea about.
Probably harder than putting out a pretty vid, though.
I know I'm often an apologist for MWM and I'm not arguing with you--your point is quite valid--but I do want to point out that:
a) MWM has stated that since they are limited in resources, they are spending time on game-building rather than putting out pretties for the masses--which is not an automatic result of game-building--and,
b) They have stated recently (maybe in this thread?) that they don't want to do things--things that they could do and that others have--to make them appear further along than they are
Now all this hinges, of course, on how much you trust them and, ultimately, what they release in the end.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
The problem is you don't get that there is a difference between seeing something and understanding what you are seeing.
Dude, you come to a forum dedicated to CoT then whine how people are resentful when they don't share your love of a different project. Responses to all the love letter articles, interviews and videos about SoH outside these forums have a large population of those who dislike CoT's efforts. It's not resentment, its location.
Perfect example of what I am talking about as if this somehow lessens their demonstration.What was that Unity demonstration? Hmmm? testing in a specific area? See, everything you all bash SoH for, can be said about the Unity video. Yes?
We can also nit pick "VO's demonstration" but we choose not to. You can disagree, but to shun one video of actual "game-play" or demonstrations regardless of what it is being ran on, it is footage, like the Unity video,but praise another of SUPPOSE game-play or for a better term, how the animations will look is a contradiction. You can disagree, but you are still contradicting yourself.
What I am saying is you all are contradicting yourselves here.
SoH shows footage: "Oh, it is ran ob blah blah blah, it is an eye show, looks like CoH"
VO shows a random unity video: "WoW, the gloves has been thrown down"
At least one of them are actually branded as the actual game, meanwhile VO's "Footage" is on sale in the Unity store.
You guys can disagree, that is fine. I will call you out on your stuff though, sorry.
CoT's is more impressive, placeholder models aside. VO had to revert to a Unity video because the last footage they displayed was blasted by the media.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Oh I understand it, but you guys are attempting to twist the narrative to fit yours by majority rule, but it aint working.
It aint about what you are seeing, but understanding the situation.
But, if you want to judge this solely on what we are seeing, fine, footage of the last VO video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpiE0WCUGGA
Notice this is categorized as VO, not kripto289. To make matters worst, in the Unity vid, the comments in this video does not even mention VO, but SoH's demonstration is somehow suspect and this is not? Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzezSQdKJoA
If they can do the same with their product, great.
Save the Devs, you guys act like you have AAA developmental knowledge or something calling me out, but you are currently caught in a contradiction.
Not one of you have gone on to explain the Unity video, because it does not fit your narrative so you revert to question someone's understanding when you all could not distinguish the differences between the two videos, otherwise you would not praise it.
I want to drop it because there is no defending this contradiction, praise an alleged vid, shun one for being alleged,you all were caught with your hands in the cookie jar, it is over, lets drop it and move on? Please?
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
You keep bringing these things up, but when everyone doesn't agree with you, you want everyone to drop it.
There is no anti-SoH conspiracy. You are just on the City of Titans boards where--not surprisingly--people generally prefer and support City of Titans.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Since you are quoting me, I will take your post as a response to mine. You say I am contradicting myself, but I do not think I am contradicting myself at all. Instead I think I am being quite consistent. If you can't see the difference by yourself, no amount of explanation by me is going to change your mind, as you have demonstrated that you are now fully entrenched and in siege mode. I think you are being irrational, but I am not here to change you, correct you, or judge you. And I do not feel attempting to clarify my statements any further will accomplish anything.
What's really sad is that I understand your arguments entirely. You just seem to choose not to try to understand mine and instead interpret them in the way that best helps you entrench yourself.
It reminds me of this pie chart:
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
And you keep bringing it up, so I continue to point it out.
Your last sentence illustrates what I have been saying. There is no objectivity here, because there is resentment being on a CoT board. But, people also praise VO. So it is not about fanfare, because VO has gotten much praise on the last few pages, it is about resentment of SoH.
If it was only about being on a CoT board, VO, the competition would not get the praise and defense it has gotten here. People were defending VO for pages against me. Some claim the gauntlet has been thrown down. This is a CoT boards, remember? It aint about that, there is resentment against SoH, and the more you guys keep bringing it up, the more I can dissect. So that is why i wanted to drop it. I want to drop it, but you guys cant because you know I am telling the truth.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
See, that is what I mean by people knowing what I am saying is true.
Nobody can get this offended by a comment which is false. I am irrational because I pointed out the contradictions.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"
This what I was saying when people attempted to question my understanding, they have nothing else so name calling or slander, question one's knowledge becomes their tool. I have no qualms firing back, but on this post, I will take the high road and just say
The gauntlet was never thrown down because VO is afraid to show their own videos CoT are not afraid to show theirs.
CoT > VO.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Holy crap.
I keep bringing it up? No. Find a place where I initiated a SoH discussion.
Find a place where I have expressed resentment towards SoH. I don't personally like the "ship" idea. That's about all. But I don't resent it. I don't like black jelly beans, but I don't resent them. I just don't eat them.
You keep saying that others are not objective because they can't see that you are right. That you are the one who is telling the truth, as you put it. That's a pretty high horse to ride.
Are YOU really the only one who is objective and right and everyone else is really just biased and wrong--or is it possible, just maybe, that you have your own personal bias too, but it's just a different bias?
Anyway, I do agree with you, and Huckleberry for that matter, on one thing. There doesn't seem to be much value in further discussion down these lines. But I would put forth that the reason for that may not simply be that you are right and everyone else is just wrong and won't listen.
Honestly, I think once a discussion is predicated on one position being incontrovertibly right, it's not really a discussion any more. It's just people saying stuff at eachother. Over and over.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
If you want to drop it then do so but don't expect to be able to toss out insults and allegations with out a rebuttal. Especially when you are wrong.
No you don't understand because you look at the sneak peek videos that SoH puts out and equates them with progress. Then when someone tries to explain to you WHY they are wary of SoH's videos you start the name calling and making up wild strawman accusations.
I don't want to judge solely on what we are seeing but what the stuff we see actually means.
For example here are some differences you completely fail to see when you compare the current VO gameplay video with the Sneek peek at combat video from SoH. Here they are so people can watch them without having to scroll around.
[youtube]0wCehf436KQ[/youtube]
[youtube]3mnh8-Qs1Ys[/youtube]
Right off the bat SoH starts its video with an in engine animation cut scene. The 'gameplay' starts at 49 seconds in and ends at 1 minute 48 seconds. This is less than a minute of 'gameplay'.
During SoH's gameplay you see only one hero fighting one type of foe while the rest of the world is devoid of life, even the citizen models than run away (all using a stock animation you can get for free) are nowhere to be found. That one hero uses one attack type with limited variations. Flashy fire attacks designed to grab the eye but the fire effects (particle effects) they use are unmodified and basic engine effects.
In later videos SoH shows off some teaming and more mobs but both videos take place on a sound stage (the same one in fact) the developers of SoH set up to display things in a controlled environment.
Alternatively the VO video starts with a character in gameplay which extends the duration of the video's 5 1/2 minutes. The hero then groups up with two other players and they use a chat function. As they move around the map they engage in multiple combats with a small variety of mobs. Both the heroes and the mobs use a variety of abilities which have effects that have been heavily modified from the unity engine basics and are clearly a WiP. At multiple points you can see a big placeholder square appear that indicates a powers effects have not been completed.
The VO video shows gameplay over a wide area of the map. The mobs the characters fight are not dropped in for display purposes they are in set spawn locations. At around 5:07 you can see a mob respawn in the right side of the screen which the character then go and fight.
You also see both the characters and mobs have reactions to being hit by an attack throughout the video.
Notice the VO video also shows a functioning chat, missions complete with waypoints and large play area.
There are also a lot of small things that people familiar with UE and Unity will notice in the videos that show the difference in progress. Stuff like lighting, shadow mapping, combat and movement mechanics, UI, textures, shading and so forth all show how much work and how much short cutting both games are doing.
So, while VO may not be as pretty as SoH it is much further along in development.
No, we just know more than you.
I'm not praising the Unity video or equating it with VO, the Unity video is a tech demo nothing more. I question your knowledge because you don't see the difference between the flash of SoH and the substance of VO.
You don't even see the progress of CoT that much. You called out the devs to show you something claiming you would stop and when they did you waved it off and went right back to missing the point.
CoT and VO are advancing at a steady rate with 'from the ground up' progress with the engine they picked but you can't see it because SoH moved in next door and flashed UE's pre-built graphics at you.
Pretty does not mean advanced progress.
First off, if you know more than me, why are you using the exact material I was?
Goes on to say, "I don't want to judge solely on what we are seeing but what the stuff we see actually means"
Then visual compares the two
"This is less than a minute of 'gameplay'.
During SoH's gameplay you see only one hero fighting one type of foe while the rest of the world is devoid of life, even the citizen models than run away (all using a stock animation you can get for free) are nowhere to be found. That one hero uses one attack type with limited variations. Flashy fire attacks designed to grab the eye but the fire effects (particle effects) they use are unmodified and basic engine effects.
In later videos SoH shows off some teaming and more mobs but both videos take place on a sound stage (the same one in fact) the developers of SoH set up to display things in a controlled environment."
Pretty does not equate to advanced progress? I agree with that, I dont know whom said it, but nonetheless I agree.
But when you take your blinders off and examine the totality of the situation... SoH and CoT are pushing for 2018, VO is unclear i terms of development, with no concrete dates. Now, this does not mean anything but the product that they did push out was so bad, that they had to use a Unity animator demo this time because they received such negative reviews.
SoH did not, they used their own. I dont care about the tricks, magic shows, if they started off the combat at 1:00 AM Japanese time, or if they pulled a Warcabitt out of their hats, theirs were already implemented. The Unity demo has not been implemented, otherwise they would have used it on VO.
My point is, one has unimplemented tech, the other does not in terms of footage. What are we debating?
The Unity video is great.If that was shown instead of the cardboard cutout clunky Gumby combat clip then I agree with you. No question. Just because you can show it, does not mean you should or it is quality. I can show some crappy game-play footage, but what does that mean?
Just because VO has game-play clips that they have no business showing or allowing the public to play does not mean they are further ahead; it means that they are doing something terribly wrong. I can attempt to make a game, and claim I am further ahead than CoT, but the game resembles a PS1 title and most of my tech has not been implemented, but hey! The video starts off with my guy running around an actual city, which looks like cardboard!
You claim to have this vast knowledge, but the mere fact that you failed to point out VO has unimplemented tech.....Dude.....
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Agree. I'm more excited for the project than I have been in a while. I have no doubt CoT and UE4 can deliver the graphic whereas I always thought of Unity as the 'good enough' engine but this is a level I have not seen previously. VO's animator is truly talented. I wonder if he benefited from the Ron Friedman tutelage?
That scream with the PBAoE ice attack brought back memories of Dreadful Wail. Awesome. :)
[b][color=red]Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.[/color][/b]
If they can implement these animations into the game, what is left to say? If the next video where to have animations and models similar to these? I can see them going into Steam soon.
5:58 is my personal favorite. Simple, but resembles melee.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
What material am I using that you used?
You missed the part where I told you SoH is using out of the box particle effects, stock animations, a small easily controlled map section, short cutting and so on.
Just so I am as clear as possible, VO has worked to make a playable GAME, SoH has short cutted to make pretty VIDEO.
I said it. You even quoted it. I don't understand what you are trying to do with this.
SOH, CoT and VO all have had their setbacks. This isn't news or even a surprise when it comes to game development.
You have been guilty of twisting perception in the past to fit whatever bias currently put a bug up your butt so I would need to see the exchange where the VO devs pushed the Unity tech demo. The way it looks to me is that they were asked about their engine and they showed what it could do.
This isn't a debate. I am trying to show where you are fundamentally wrong in your assumptions. It's fact vs perception.
For example you look at the Unity tech demo and compare it to the VO gameplay video and think that one is using tech the other isn't. That's not true. They are both just using that 'tech' differently and in different environments.
Particle effects are one of the most intensive things in a game. Its the cause for most frame dropping in general gameplay. If you ever notice a game start to lag when a bunch of explosions go off or when you have a bunch of players all tossing spells that is usually due, at least in part, to the particle effects.
The unity demo is using very high particle effect settings to show off what the engine can do but it is doing so in a small isolated environment. They do this because particle effects are very intensive and they need to have an isolated area to show those unmodified effects. VO is using those same Unity engine particle effects but they have not yet optimized those effects for full gameplay.
Bringing it back around, the SoH videos are using the small controlled area tactic that the Unity tech demo does to display their combat in order to make it look as pretty as possible.
Smart developers create the game first then optimize effects so the game isn't a slideshow. A game needs the core elements which require a certain amount of cpu to run and that isn't something that can be changed all that much. After that you have additional features that which follows a similar small margin of change cpu requirment. To make matters more difficult, a developer is not sure just how intensive their core game will be until it is done.
Then you get to visuals, stuff like lighting, shadows, particle effects, textures, shading, draw distance and so on. This is the area developers have the most room to wiggle in. It's also the area that can be tricked for lack of a better word. Because the eye is lazy you can employ all sorts of visual tricks to make something look better than it actually is which save on cpu.
The problems come when developers use that trickery to present something as something else entirely.
You asked before why more people don't do this. Well it happens all the time. It isn't a new concept in advertising. Demo videos of CoD, The Division, Battlefield and Red Faction all have been caught doing this. If you are unaware at how common this is take a look at this:
http://www.gatheryourparty.com/2013/07/06/media-manipulation-faking-it/
I want to be clear, I am not accusing SoH of being maliciously deceptive. I do think their sneak peek videos are meant to be representative displays of the future and not actual gameplay videos. I expect much of the short cuts they used to make the videos will be worked on to create fleshed out gameplay as they move forward. But in it's current state SoH is not, as you said earlier, further ahead of VO.
That's exactly what it means. I agree they probably shouldn't have a playable alpha but it's their game and if they want to endure a bunch of people who lack game development knowledge questioning them I can't stop them.
But showing it is not the end of the world for them. There are enough people out there who understand at least a bit of what they are being shown to see the game progressing.
I don't claim to have vast knowledge. I just claim to have more knowledge than you. And you missed where I explained the unimplemented tech in my first reply. I have now explained it further.
I doubt you will take a step back and see how your assumptions are wrong because your pride won't let you but I hope deep down you do understand a bit more now and can tone down your rhetoric.
I mean most of the stuff you are questioning have answers and I am sure people will be more than happy to discuss things with you if you can stop the accusatory method in which you make them.
You might even come to respect other peoples opinion even if you don't agree with it.
I find it interesting that one of the most active threads on these forums is about games that aren't this game, with people largely arguing based on assumptions and conjecture, bordering on trolling and feeding said trolls.
Unless someone here has inside information, we won't know until we know.
(insert pithy comment here)
It's what happens a lot - the thing is, CoT's development media policy (that of only ever showing what they can outright guarantee will be in the final release) defies a lot of the pre-game arguments you find with a lot of other games, because those other games make promises, push for new inclusions, and generally attempt to sell themselves higher than they are in an effort to bring in merchandise. It brings in views, and creates arguments that make people curious about the game.
CoT's forums seem to have a fairly... sedate pace at the moment due to there not being much to discuss outside of the discussion forum and some general chat, which tends to be easier to work on on a less focused forum. Every once in a while it'll churn up, people discuss things for a month or two, the jiggle threads get necro-ed, and then it falls back into its rather sedate schedule.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
While we can all dismiss the "jiggle" threads as the semi-pointless CoT equivalent of "[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin]counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin[/url]" I'd much rather talk about that every few months than worry too much about the OTHER CoH spiritual successors on THIS forum.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You did not have to contribute to the "Trolling" if that is all you think we are doing.
This is the most active thread, because SoH and VO are the two that displayed recent intriguing "footage." Footage draws more conversation than no footage. If CoT displayed recent footage, their topic would be booming.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
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