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Empyrean
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Looks like a good CoH-like

Looks like a good CoH-like spectrum of AT's with some interesting expansions on Masterminds.

I'll be honest, I've played Valiance on and off, and I personally have a hard time getting past the future setting (not my favorite for Superheroes other than for occasional adventures) and the (to me) plastic doll look of the PC's.

BUT, it is truly in the spirit of CoH, and good on 'em and more power to 'em, cause it's going to be right up many people's alley.

And the more the merrier when it comes to promoting and exploring my favorite genre--Superheroes!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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VO needs to start looking and

VO needs to start looking and feeling like a game in 2016, otherwise they need to just can the project. Not sure how long they have been working on it, but the initial release date was winter 2016 which has been taken down.

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Interesting... one of the

Interesting... one of the archetypes is called a TITAN? :)

Free promotion for City of Titans! :D

Does this mean MWM has to use Valiance or Valiant somehow for say a Badge or other Title(s)?
As long as its not Dalliance. j/k ;)

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You guys kind of need to work

They kind of need to work on the grammar for some of those archetype descriptions. It looks pretty unprofessional. But then, it is just a preview, so I guess they probably are working on it.

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My biggest problem with

Umm, is it just me or is that crotch bulge a tad big?

Anatomically correct is not always better...
=P

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Don't worry. It's just a sock

Don't worry. It's just a sock.

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:

Umm, is it just me or is that crotch bulge a tad big?
Anatomically correct is not always better...
=P

Be glad it's not clipping.

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Player models look very weird

Player models look very weird to me....

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Oh! Oh! I know this one!

Oh! Oh! I know this one!

"Problems heroes have when their spandex suit has no pockets but their grandma absolutely, positively needs that salami right now."

I'd say that this goes into the territory for being physiologically correct, especially where teenage heroes being faced with many female heroes in equally tight spandex are concerned.

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I think they are killing it!

I think they are killing it! No haterade to be swilled. (re the website AND their progress)

Now.. as for that CoT website update (or at least forum update) we've been waiting for... (no shade, our site is unpretty)

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Hmm... I seem to only be able

Hmm... I seem to only be able to find the website with the guy in the red tights blasting guys with a red energy beam still. Which I suppose is technically new but has been there for awhile unless I'm missing something.

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Question, perhaps anyone with

Question, perhaps anyone with video game developmental knowledge can answer it. Word is that VO was in the works before CoT, but the recent Titans video blows VO animations, etc away. Is there a reason for this, perhaps something technical? Everything in the CoT video just seems so much smoother than VO's early stages.

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VO was started by using

VO was started by using assets from a pre-existing game being developed by the studio prior to forming the VO team.
They've gone through iterations as is normal for any game development. The "game" that was playable was actually a very early (and expensive on their end to allow such access) prototype. As such anything you experienced in the early play is highly subject to change.

Animations are one of the hardest and most subjective aspects to get right, especially for a 3d game (well even 2d games are getting increasingly complex animations depending on art style of the game). Even the animations witnessed in our prototype footage are not final animations. They are a good indicator of what we want things to look like.

For any lay-persons: a prototype game is where you test your basic assumptions. It is not meant to look pretty. A basic side-scrolling game where the player can run and jump over obstacles could be prototyped by having a block respond to inputs by sliding along a level plain and jumping over other block-like obstacles. It is no way indicative of the game representing a red hatted plumber going to rescue a princess.

All intents, everything experienced in VO and all our vids / screen shots are at the development stage for prototyping.


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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Question, perhaps anyone with video game developmental knowledge can answer it. Word is that VO was in the works before CoT, but the recent Titans video blows VO animations, etc away. Is there a reason for this, perhaps something technical? Everything in the CoT video just seems so much smoother than VO's early stages.

Without knowing what is under the hood, the best I could do is speculate, which is unfair to VO. It could be nothing more than the default root animation libraries included with each engine.

Technical Director

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Ah,ok, thanks guys.

Ah,ok, thanks guys.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Phararri wrote:
Question, perhaps anyone with video game developmental knowledge can answer it. Word is that VO was in the works before CoT, but the recent Titans video blows VO animations, etc away. Is there a reason for this, perhaps something technical? Everything in the CoT video just seems so much smoother than VO's early stages.

Without knowing what is under the hood, the best I could do is speculate, which is unfair to VO. It could be nothing more than the default root animation libraries included with each engine.

Wasn't there talk of VO hiring a 3D Animator some time ago? What happened to that? :P

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Wonder how things will look

Wonder how things will look when they get into the alpha stages, they having been mentioning Alpha and Steam Early access for quite some time. Thing is this, CoT shocks me with their progress, in a good way; While VO discourages me with theirs. Fingers crossed for both projects. This is not shade in VO's direction, just my humble and honest opinion.

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Well other then the weird

Well other then the weird plastic looking character models I do have one other comment to make.

The concept of Valiance taking place in a cyberpunk futuristic type of world were technology has produced superpowers is an interesting idea but I do see one problem with it and that is the simple fact that it might stunt player backstories as the PCs will be forced into either mutant gene powers or replicating power tech.

Albeit that won't be a big problem for some people but it's worth noting for others that want more flexibility for there characters.....

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Between the summary of The

Between the summary of The Game (especially that first paragraph) and the Story Overview, I'm thinking that almost any character backstory could fit in.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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They also confirmed that the

They also confirmed that the leader, commander, and director archetypes will have minion customization, to what extent? Who knows. Good news though.

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Must of read it wrong then...

Must of read it wrong then....

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Wonder how things will look when they get into the alpha stages, they having been mentioning Alpha and Steam Early access for quite some time. Thing is this, CoT shocks me with their progress, in a good way; While VO discourages me with theirs. Fingers crossed for both projects. This is not shade in VO's direction, just my humble and honest opinion.

When you see updates constantly, it looks like it's crawling. When you see them in sneak peeks once in a blue moon, it looks like its running. This is all perception, even if the two are moving at the same rate.

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What VO is promising for

What VO is promising for release is ambitious to say the least, 11 playable classes and over 90 powersets. I am excited to see the level of progress they have had.

Nyktos wrote:

Player models look very weird to me.....

I agree, but I think its due to a few things that can easily change in the future. The 'realistic' human face combined with 'stylized' costumes is jarring so if they changed either the face to one that is similarly stylized or design costumes with a more realistic look it would improve a lot. Plus the reflective maps are offputting. They could easily lower the value which would help a whole bunch with the 'plastic' look some have complained about.

In the end, I doubt the character models or costumes are completely set yet.

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This is what i mean.https:/

This is what i mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5WkMH7r6P4

Pretty much the same feel, same environment, same models, same animations. That was slightly over a year ago. I don't expect a beta esque product, but personally, I am underwhelmed with the progress, that is just me.

This video looks better for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGJ8E0LR0Ac

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Well the commentary by the

Well the commentary by the youtubers really does affect the overall video...the one in the first video is annoying while the one in the second video shows respect for the project. The first video is newer while the second is older. The older one shows a very empty and unfinished world while the newer one show a much more expansive world.

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That is what stuck out to me,

That why it stuck out to me, the first was is indeed closer to the new version, but the 2013 version appears to look much smoother, the punches and whatnot.

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I wonder how many of those

I wonder how many of those power sets are basically the same thing with slight changes, e.g. fire blast, ice blast, psoriasis blast, etc.

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Phararri wrote: That why it
Phararri wrote:

That why it stuck out to me, the first was is indeed closer to the new version, but the 2013 version appears to look much smoother, the punches and whatnot..

You probably know about this already but....VO was originally going to be another game but the guys there bought it and converted it to what it is. When you look at the animations and character models in both videos you can see they are not the same model.... I am purely guessing, but I think the models from the game it was going to be were not what they wanted for VO and so remade them....the older video had models (and animations) that were further along in development and the ones in the 2014 video are less so due to recreating them. Like I said...just a guess.

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I wonder how many of those power sets are basically the same thing with slight changes, e.g. fire blast, ice blast, psoriasis blast, etc..

I doubt the sets as a whole will only be superficially different but I have no doubt that many individual powers will be swapped between sets. The only evidence I have of that is the guys behind VO don't seem (at least to me) to be the type who will use this type of advertising trickery. Again...just a guess. Regardless... I agree completely that 90 sets of completely individual powers is highly unlikely.

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islandtrevor72 wrote: Lin
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote: I wonder how many of those power sets are basically the same thing with slight changes, e.g. fire blast, ice blast, psoriasis blast, etc..I doubt the sets as a whole will only be superficially different but I have no doubt that many individual powers will be swapped between sets. The only evidence I have of that is the guys behind VO don't seem (at least to me) to be the type who will use this type of advertising trickery. Again...just a guess. Regardless... I agree completely that 90 sets of completely individual powers is highly unlikely.

I'm pretty sure they count the melee, ranged, support, control, whatever version of any "theme set" (like fire, ice and psionic) as separate ones for this counting but I'm also sure that there are significant differences in game play between the "theme sets".

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islandtrevor72 wrote: Lin
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote: I wonder how many of those power sets are basically the same thing with slight changes, e.g. fire blast, ice blast, psoriasis blast, etc..I doubt the sets as a whole will only be superficially different but I have no doubt that many individual powers will be swapped between sets. The only evidence I have of that is the guys behind VO don't seem (at least to me) to be the type who will use this type of advertising trickery. Again...just a guess. Regardless... I agree completely that 90 sets of completely individual powers is highly unlikely.

Of course they won't be only superficially different. Fire would have a DoT and ice would have a slow, for example. But they'll still follow a template, exactly how CoX did it: this power's a high-rate low-damage basic attack, this one's a low-rate high-damage basic attack, this one's a snipe, etc. It makes game balance a lot more tractable.

And it's not really advertising trickery, either: since the differences are more than superficial, internally they have to be handled as independent sets. All I was pointing out is that it's an approach much like the original CoX and not like the more generic approach of CoT.

Which makes me think that character transfer between games is highly unlikely, because there will be too much information loss. (And further, such a mechanism could be exploited.)

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Quote: Of course they won't
Quote:

Of course they won't be only superficially different. Fire would have a DoT and ice would have a slow, for example. But they'll still follow a template, exactly how CoX did it: this power's a high-rate low-damage basic attack, this one's a low-rate high-damage basic attack, this one's a snipe, etc. It makes game balance a lot more tractable..

When you used the phrase 'slight changes' it did not seem to mean secondary effects as , which you attest to here, those are not exactly slight changes. I was mistakenly thinking you meant only pallet or animation changes. Hence my use of the term 'advertisement trickery'. I apologize for my confusion.

I don't really agree that CoX followed a template when designing powersets. Only blasts, pet and control sets seemed to have strongish similarities to me and even those had some fairly substantial differences.

Quote:

Which makes me think that character transfer between games is highly unlikely, because there will be too much information loss. (And further, such a mechanism could be exploited.).

I always felt that the crossover spoken about by the devs between VO and CoT was going to be more one of story than actual character transfer, with a possible free limited subscription use for both as a promotional event. Did the devs ever say it was character crossover?

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islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote: Of course they won't be only superficially different. Fire would have a DoT and ice would have a slow, for example. But they'll still follow a template, exactly how CoX did it: this power's a high-rate low-damage basic attack, this one's a low-rate high-damage basic attack, this one's a snipe, etc. It makes game balance a lot more tractable..When you used the phrase 'slight changes' it did not seem to mean secondary effects as , which you attest to here, those are not exactly slight changes. I was mistakenly thinking you meant only pallet or animation changes. Hence my use of the term 'advertisement trickery'. I apologize for my confusion.I don't really agree that CoX followed a template when designing powersets. Only blasts, pet and control sets seemed to have strongish similarities to me and even those had some fairly substantial differences. Quote: Which makes me think that character transfer between games is highly unlikely, because there will be too much information loss. (And further, such a mechanism could be exploited.).I always felt that the crossover spoken about by the devs between VO and CoT was going to be more one of story than actual character transfer, with a possible free limited subscription use for both as a promotional event. Did the devs ever say it was character crossover?

I think the idea of a mission with the others NPCs would be the crossover idea.

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islandtrevor72 wrote: When
islandtrevor72 wrote:

When you used the phrase 'slight changes' it did not seem to mean secondary effects as , which you attest to here, those are not exactly slight changes. I was mistakenly thinking you meant only pallet or animation changes. Hence my use of the term 'advertisement trickery'. I apologize for my confusion

Ah, yes, "slight" as in "change a line of fluff text and a database entry or two" not "just change the paint color". Makes more sense now.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

I don't really agree that CoX followed a template when designing powersets. Only blasts, pet and control sets seemed to have strongish similarities to me and even those had some fairly substantial differences.

That may have been true initially, but later on, especially wwhen the whole Powerset Proliferation thing hit, they had a lot of stuff down to a set of patterns. This was quite obvious when they had the "Make a Powerset" events at the community get-togethers in San Jose. After everyone decided to work out Air Blast, for example, the devs would pull out a spreadsheet for "blast set template" or something similarly named, and it had several fields (like the brawl-ratios for the attack powers) aready filled in. Sure, they felt free to edit all that as needed to make the set work, but the point is that by then they had enough data mining and playtesting and records and everything to know what's gimped and what's overpowered, and they had come up with several templates to keep new work in line with existing stuff.

And to clarify, we're talking templates as in form letters and starter files, not C++ templates or anything as restrictive or hard-wired.

islandtrevor72 wrote:

Did the devs ever say it was character crossover?

Hmmm...

Shadow Elusive wrote:

one day, we even want to do crossovers if we can figure out a way to make it work

Interesting. I was thinking of crossovers as in comic books where you see one series' characters in another series, and assumed these characters would be player characters... but if they were NPCs only, it would be much more manageable!

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Quote: That may have been
Quote:

That may have been true initially, but later on, especially wwhen the whole Powerset Proliferation thing hit, they had a lot of stuff down to a set of patterns. This was quite obvious when they had the "Make a Powerset" events at the community get-togethers in San Jose. After everyone decided to work out Air Blast, for example, the devs would pull out a spreadsheet for "blast set template" or something similarly named, and it had several fields (like the brawl-ratios for the attack powers) aready filled in. Sure, they felt free to edit all that as needed to make the set work, but the point is that by then they had enough data mining and playtesting and records and everything to know what's gimped and what's overpowered, and they had come up with several templates to keep new work in line with existing stuff..

I wasn't actually talking about damage values or even secondary effects (DoT, stun ect)..... I was talking about powerset makeup. For example two newer sets for a scrapper were Dual Blades and Kinetic Melee....

Dual blades power makeup was 'single target, single target, single target, PBAoE, single target, taunt, single target, cone, cone.'
While Kinetic Melee went 'single target, single target, single target, buff, ranged cone, taunt, PBAoE, ranged single target, single target.'

Just the type of attacks varied quite a bit without getting into secondary effects, combos or activators. Even Blast sets, which I agree were a bit more formulaic, had a decent variety in makeup.

That's all I meant by not following a template....if you break powers down individually...then yes I would agree CoX tried to (and hope any other game I want to play does as well) balance them against similar powers in some fashion.

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islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote: That may have been true initially, but later on, especially wwhen the whole Powerset Proliferation thing hit, they had a lot of stuff down to a set of patterns. This was quite obvious when they had the "Make a Powerset" events at the community get-togethers in San Jose. After everyone decided to work out Air Blast, for example, the devs would pull out a spreadsheet for "blast set template" or something similarly named, and it had several fields (like the brawl-ratios for the attack powers) aready filled in. Sure, they felt free to edit all that as needed to make the set work, but the point is that by then they had enough data mining and playtesting and records and everything to know what's gimped and what's overpowered, and they had come up with several templates to keep new work in line with existing stuff..I wasn't actually talking about damage values or even secondary effects (DoT, stun ect)..... I was talking about powerset makeup. For example two newer sets for a scrapper were Dual Blades and Kinetic Melee.... Dual blades power makeup was 'single target, single target, single target, PBAoE, single target, taunt, single target, cone, cone.'
While Kinetic Melee went 'single target, single target, single target, buff, ranged cone, taunt, PBAoE, ranged single target, single target.'Just the type of attacks varied quite a bit without getting into secondary effects, combos or activators. Even Blast sets, which I agree were a bit more formulaic, had a decent variety in makeup. That's all I meant by not following a template....if you break powers down individually...then yes I would agree CoX tried to (and hope any other game I want to play does as well) balance them against similar powers in some fashion.

This may have been a case of more than one template. Dual blades follows the Claws template, with the exception of Focus being short ranged single target attack vs. Vengleful Slice being a melee range single target attack. Kinetic Melee follows Scrapper version of Fiery Melee. The exception being Repulsing Torrent was a ranged cone vs Breath of Fire.

Both examples of providing range to an attack may have been something a developer could have applied as part of the utility portions of the power to give the set flavor. Though the reality is probably closer to using pre-existing assets of pulling a Repulsing Torrent from Energy Blast's Energy Torrent (and using the original cast time instead of the Blaster-modified-cast-time-for-Defiance) along with a an improvement to knockback chance (and of course improved outputs thanks to scrapper mods).

We know from early talks with devs there were indeed basic templates. It is where we began with our first templates for power set design as well. We've taken ours a couple of steps further.


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Quote: This may have been a
Quote:

This may have been a case of more than one template.

Entirely possible, I didn't really think in terms of multiple templates as the amount of 'templates' CoX had was very impressive. Just for scrapper melee it seems as if they had at least 5 with each new set being stretched further and further away from the 'templates'. The end result being much more variety in powerset design than a template would seem to indicate. I mean when does a template stop being the rule and more a guideline?

Regardless, my objection to the word 'template' was in direct correlation to Lin's earlier comments which I had mistaken as more simplistic than was intended. My examples were to show a variation in powersets and why I had disagreed with a simple template design concept (and still do), not to discredit Lin's statements which after further explanation are valid.

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On the crossovers...

On the crossovers...

Obviously no form of direct tech interaction is possible, Unity and Unreal can't talk like that. Mission arcs in each game that only complete a story together (so you'd have to log into both games and play both arcs), that's the most ambitious form of crossover we might attempt, and therefore the least likely, though it is both possible and rather appealing, at least to me.

We were indeed mostly talking comic books, allowing our lore to crossover. That we know for sure we could do, assuming opportunities align. When telling a story and drawing it, the fact that the power design is very different in each game doesn't really matter. It's the easiest form, most likely, and since we at CoT have been eyeing various ways of using comic books (it worked pretty well for CoH) it's something we should have opportunity for.

The only kind of literal character transfer you're ever going to get though, is by logging into the other game and doing your darndest to re-create something close. At least supplied by us. Who knows, maybe whoever it was who said they were going to tackle Sentinel to CoT transfer will also tackle CoT to Valiance transfer. But MWM is not planning to attempt any of it. We'll cooperate with anyone who wants to try though.

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Y'all could always allow for

Y'all could always allow for a VO comic to be a thing in CoT and a CoT comic to be a thing in VO. That way it wouldn't be weird to have VO promo events in CoT, and vice versa, and even seeing VO / CoT cosplayers, etc.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Y'all could always allow for a VO comic to be a thing in CoT and a CoT comic to be a thing in VO. That way it wouldn't be weird to have VO promo events in CoT, and vice versa, and even seeing VO / CoT cosplayers, etc.

So we'd each be the fiction of the other's universe? I like that idea. Especially for comic books - in-game comic book stores in each game would have titles featuring the other?

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Shadow Elusive wrote: Darth
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Darth Fez wrote: Y'all could always allow for a VO comic to be a thing in CoT and a CoT comic to be a thing in VO. That way it wouldn't be weird to have VO promo events in CoT, and vice versa, and even seeing VO / CoT cosplayers, etc.So we'd each be the fiction of the other's universe? I like that idea. Especially for comic books - in-game comic book stores in each game would have titles featuring the other?

Genius.

"Y'all"? You a southern boy like me, Fez?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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You betcha!Côte d'Azur 4 ever

You betcha!

Côte d'Azur 4 ever!

I'm not actually French* but even in me land o' origin I'm from the southeast.



* Just part French.

- - - - -
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Darth Fez wrote: Y'all could
Darth Fez wrote:

Y'all could always allow for a VO comic to be a thing in CoT and a CoT comic to be a thing in VO. That way it wouldn't be weird to have VO promo events in CoT, and vice versa, and even seeing VO / CoT cosplayers, etc.

This. Would. Be. Awesome.

I like it a lot more than "you must buy both games to finish the mission" content.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Oh no, you misunderstood me.

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I did not mean you need to play both games to finish the mission. I meant that the arcs in each game would provide another aspect of the story. Each one would stand alone, and certainly complete (no special rewards for completing both or penalties if you don't). But playing both would complete the picture in a satisfying way.

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Doctor Tyche wrote: That's
Doctor Tyche wrote:

That's our powers coder, AmIEvil, at work. What you can see does not reflect a finished product, and is filled with a ton of debug info, like those icons, which will not be there when finished. He has been working on powers for awhile, both on his own and now with us. It's not "ready for release" by any means, but is fun none the less.

Well I have to say it looks fantastic I'm very impressed with the direction you guys are heading and I couldn't be happier that they leaked the vids....Wish you guys had done it sooner ;)

~ If your going through hell...Keep going!!! #Winston Churchill

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They posted new pics on their

They posted new pics on their site, looks great imo. One of the comments really caught my eye though, it was not the typical white knight response, but rather, very direct. I don't have much faith in the project and do feel as that the group is in over their heads. There are indeed things which do not work, and have not worked since 2014. There are environments which look Mario 64-ish in 2014, and still do in 2016. In 2014, the animations were on par (Maybe worst) than Virtual Fighter 1, in 2016, that is still the case, lol.

I think the guy may have a case of sour grapes, because he goes on to describe issues he had with customer service. However, some of his points are well taken.

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I think the guy deleted it or

I think the guy deleted it or it got deleted, lol. He was pretty heated about the state of VO.

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http://valiance.shogn.net

http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/valiance-request/6-customize-minions?start=6

According to the dev, VO will also have customization of minions, and it will be on par with the hero creator, wow, sweet news.

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What do you guys think of

What do you guys think of their new models?

https://www.facebook.com/ValianceOnline/

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Honestly, I do not like them

Honestly, I do not like them that much. They just don't feel like they fit in a comic book world but instead seem closer to GTA models in spandex.

I prefer my heroes to have more of a Kirby, McFarlane, Miller or, to a lesser extent, Ditko art style. Too much realism detracts IMO.

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I was very tough on these

I was very tough on these here VO people, but I really like these models. The realism is refreshing. It looks more along the lines of the super hero movies. The movie characters look more sci-fi than comics (Considering how the movies use real people as opposed to animated series haha). I am not with the whole CO sword and sorcery theme, this sci-fi feel will set it apart from other hero MMOs; imo, it was a smart move on their part. It could draw a much larger crowd, those whom appreciate heroes and detailed models.

Don't say this often but way to go VO, way go; looks promising.

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The story has all cyber

Valiance has all cyber enhancements making super powers. I think they are limiting the story potential that way.
As for the models, they are better than the old ones I guess. (The old ones were pretty bad). Realistic models are nice, but i prefer the Titan's planned comic look better.

City of Titans is making a comic book come to life. Valiance is adapting another game to be a hero game.

Competition makes everything better, so power to them, but from what I've seen so far I am not impressed.

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I for one am impressed, and

I for one am impressed, and we all know how nice I was to them on these forums, lol. Btw, do you mean origins? I saw natural, magic, and science origins in the pre-alpha.

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Well, yea, I don't see this

Well, yea, I don't see this game coming out. Their crowdfunding was failure, and the current crowd funding can't seem to get past 10%, let alone the first or any other phases. I would be really worried if I were them. I don't think players give a crap about Valiance to be completely honest. There is no sense of direction, they are just out there.

Crowdfunding appears to be important, based upon their goals. Star Citizen is slated to release this year and was developed 5 years ago correct? I am uncertain how long Valiance Online has been in development, but based upon their progress these past few years, doubt they will ever to get were Star Citizen is at, a release date.

I think they should just quit and stop wasting their time, this project does not appear to be going anywhere. Sorry to say, because I am a fan of Valiance, but reality is setting in.

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Star Citizen and VO are

Star Citizen and VO are entirely different animals....comparisons between the two don't exactly work.
VO is not dead....it is progressing at a decent pace for the size of the developers team. Their current crowd funding has only just start a short while ago and it is only on the VO site (AFAIK). It does not seem like this funding is a requirement for release....it is more to hasten and improve release.

If VO does fold and pack in....it will only hurt CoT if MWM decides to go for a second round of funding.

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I get that they are two

I get that they are two different animals, that much is obvious, but VO will fold imo. Could I be wrong about this? Yea. However, you say a cancelled VO could hurt CoT, well, how come a successful CoT kick-starter did not help VO's kick-starter funding? VO are in over their head imo.

They have some nice ideas though, but do not appear have the ability to execute it.

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The explanation for why CoTs

The explanation for why CoTs kickstarter didn't help VO's is a fairly long discussion. The talking points would be timing, limited fan base and relevancy. In the end why VO cancellation would affect CoT's possible future fundraising is a whole separate reason than why CoT's success did not help VO and it is directly related to human nature.
VO just started a new round of open ended fund raising and they are also part of steam's greenlight. This doom speak is premature.

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VO is VO; CoT is CoT.CO is CO

VO is VO; CoT is CoT.

CO is CO; DCUO is DCUO and so on.

Still dont see how this would affect CoT, because they are both hero MMOs? So if an action MMO fails, the next action MMO would be affected? If a first person shooter fails on Steam, the next first person shooter would be affected and so on? Can't buy that.

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This isn't a difficult

This isn't a difficult concept man.
A successor to CoH only has a limited fan base. First one to fund raise will get the lions share.
If one was to fail it would taint perception for future fund raising because the ones who followed the failed endeavor will be less inclined to chance it again.
There are also a whole bunch of other factors to consider. Like how many other games were in crowd funding at the time, VO losing a dev during their fund raising, time of year the kick starter occurred.
You want there to be a simple one to one ration and it doesn't work like that.
Regardless ...I am done...you made a claim that they 'do not have the ability to execute' and I offered a counter. I'm not trying to change your mind and its pretty unlikely you will change mine. My comments were for others with the hope they won't blindly accept either opinion and will do a bit of research themselves.

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It is not a difficult concept

It is not a difficult concept at all, but it is your concept, not fact. No need to get riled up. I see what you are saying, but strongly disagree, that is all.

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If I was riled up I would

If I was riled up I would talk to you a lot different than I have.
But lets get a few things straight. You didn't understand what I was talking about until my last post or you would not have brought up VO's original kickstarter and say 'Still dont see how this would affect CoT, because they are both hero MMOs?' without refuting my position.
I am still not sure you understand that the 'concept' is how human nature works. Just like I am not sure you actually have any basis for your opinion that VO will fail as you only have ever given vague declarative statements about your reasoning. I mean you came on here only a day after the fundraising started and said it was failing. You don't look at where that fund raising is located or why they went the website funding route. You keep saying 'they are in over their head' or 'can the project' or some variation of those sentiments without any actual reason to back it up.
There....that's me riled up. I could go angry next if ya want.

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Sure, go ahead. I am not

Sure, go ahead. I am not going to embarrass myself by acting out, nor disrespect my fellow CoT mates, but if that is what you want to do, go right ahead. I am not going to fight back, it is the internet, not worth the key strokes. I could google big booty hip-hop models, my college work, cars or something. Actually, I am looking to buy some more dress clothes and scarves, we google that. Later.

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You forgot to include 'make

You forgot to include 'make baseless claims' in your list of things you 'could do'.

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Well, for myself, as

Well, for myself, as interesting as VO appears, I find it too limited in concept, so I'm sticking with CoT.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote: Well, for
Fireheart wrote:

Well, for myself, as interesting as VO appears, I find it too limited in concept, so I'm sticking with CoT.Be Well!
Fireheart

Same, rolling with CoT. Followed this project for a while, interested in seeing what these guys/gals come up with. Those early vids were sweet.

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I'm sticking with both until

I'm sticking with both until I can no longer do so. With CoT I had expectations I tried to temper and have had to constantly readjust what to expect out of a volunteer effort over the years so I don't see why I can't do any less for VO where I may have to go even further in expectations since they have even less funds. They are in the same boat, people working real jobs then working on a dream in their free time. When you think about what they are trying to do and the effort/sacrifice involved, I'm not going to berate them for the timeframe unless they were fully funded by a huge publisher.
From my perspective their models and environments have improved over about the last year and now they have put up their new website which is a huge improvement over the old one. Just like here, I see improvement, very slow but it is there.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Well said Savage.

Well said Savage.

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SavageFist wrote: I'm
SavageFist wrote:

I'm sticking with both until I can no longer do so. With CoT I had expectations I tried to temper and have had to constantly readjust what to expect out of a volunteer effort over the years so I don't see why I can't do any less for VO where I may have to go even further in expectations since they have even less funds. They are in the same boat, people working real jobs then working on a dream in their free time. When you think about what they are trying to do and the effort/sacrifice involved, I'm not going to berate them for the timeframe unless they were fully funded by a huge publisher.
From my perspective their models and environments have improved over about the last year and now they have put up their new website which is a huge improvement over the old one. Just like here, I see improvement, very slow but it is there.

The improvement is there, but not enough to justify my faith, or apparently the funds of others. A failed KS, and now the a site funding that wont budge, it aint looking good is what I am saying. That can change, but I don't see it, not by a long shot. I see them working on this part-time the entire way or scrapping the project; no way can these goals be met at the rate they are going.

http://valiance.shogn.net/donate

They would need to really show players what they are all about on Steam, really wow them to get folks in their corner. In my opinion, people are just not that interested in VO. It is just another KS project, which appears to be profanity in the video gaming realm.

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Quote: The improvement is
Quote:

The improvement is there, but not enough to justify my faith, or apparently the funds of others. A failed KS, and now the a site funding that wont budge, it aint looking good is what I am saying. That can change, but I don't see it, not by a long shot. I see them working on this part-time the entire way or scrapping the project; no way can these goals be met at the rate they are going.

This is why your comments frustrate me. You make these declarative statements without providing any context to them.
The kickstarter did not actually 'fail'....it was cancelled early because of a dev leaving the project (for personal reasons) which made the kickstarter something they were unable to fulfill. One could argue that they were responsible enough to not proceed with the fundraising while not knowing if they could actually provide what they promised.
The current website funding is not to get the game made, its about 'stretch goals'. It has not been promoted in any way so the only ones who know about it are those who actually go to the site and see it many of which have already donated (which is not shown in the current round of fund raising). It has only been going on for less than a week with the idea of getting the way to donate in place before announcing and promoting the donation in a way that would be worthwhile.
The game is progressing at an expected pace with a big update on the horizon. Much of the current progress is behind the scenes stuff that a tech video won't show. It may not be progressing in a visual way that you can appreciate but it is progressing.
This short thread might give you a new way to look at things.
http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/valiance-general/54-anyone-else-worried-about-the-donation-progress

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Add in that they probably don

Add in that they probably don't want to go public until they have all of their big planned updates in place, so that it gives a much better "representative feel" of the game than what they currently have.

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islandtrevor72 wrote: Quote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote: The improvement is there, but not enough to justify my faith, or apparently the funds of others. A failed KS, and now the a site funding that wont budge, it aint looking good is what I am saying. That can change, but I don't see it, not by a long shot. I see them working on this part-time the entire way or scrapping the project; no way can these goals be met at the rate they are going.This is why your comments frustrate me. You make these declarative statements without providing any context to them.
The kickstarter did not actually 'fail'....it was cancelled early because of a dev leaving the project (for personal reasons) which made the kickstarter something they were unable to fulfill. One could argue that they were responsible enough to not proceed with the fundraising while not knowing if they could actually provide what they promised.
The current website funding is not to get the game made, its about 'stretch goals'. It has not been promoted in any way so the only ones who know about it are those who actually go to the site and see it many of which have already donated (which is not shown in the current round of fund raising). It has only been going on for less than a week with the idea of getting the way to donate in place before announcing and promoting the donation in a way that would be worthwhile.
The game is progressing at an expected pace with a big update on the horizon. Much of the current progress is behind the scenes stuff that a tech video won't show. It may not be progressing in a visual way that you can appreciate but it is progressing.
This short thread might give you a new way to look at things.http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/valiance-general/54-anyone-else-worried-...

The funding has been going on for quite some time now; far longer than a week. It does not look good, so they will have to make due with VO being a part-time project with limited support is what I am saying. I don't think the game will amount to much, just my opinion, no need to get frustrated with another man's opinion, because it is just that, opinion. VO is vaporware, nothing is going to change my mind unless I see a solid game.

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The CURRENT funding totals. I

The CURRENT funding. I said this specifically in my post.
I am not frustrated with your opinion. I am frustrated with the misrepresentative way you present those opinions.
You are free to feel what you want about the game. I never once said your opinion of the game was wrong....I am just presenting a more complete picture of what is actually going on than you.

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islandtrevor72 wrote: The
islandtrevor72 wrote:

The CURRENT funding. I said this specifically in my post.
I am not frustrated with your opinion. I am frustrated with the misrepresentative way you present those opinions.
You are free to feel what you want about the game. I never once said your opinion of the game was wrong....I am just presenting a more complete picture of what is actually going on than you.

...Which is merely your opinion. Nobody but SilverHelm truly knows what is going on.

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I don't think you know what

I don't think you know what the word 'opinion' means.

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Phararri wrote: SavageFist
Phararri wrote:

SavageFist wrote: I'm sticking with both until I can no longer do so. With CoT I had expectations I tried to temper and have had to constantly readjust what to expect out of a volunteer effort over the years so I don't see why I can't do any less for VO where I may have to go even further in expectations since they have even less funds. They are in the same boat, people working real jobs then working on a dream in their free time. When you think about what they are trying to do and the effort/sacrifice involved, I'm not going to berate them for the timeframe unless they were fully funded by a huge publisher.
From my perspective their models and environments have improved over about the last year and now they have put up their new website which is a huge improvement over the old one. Just like here, I see improvement, very slow but it is there.The improvement is there, but not enough to justify my faith, or apparently the funds of others. A failed KS, and now the a site funding that wont budge, it aint looking good is what I am saying. That can change, but I don't see it, not by a long shot. I see them working on this part-time the entire way or scrapping the project; no way can these goals be met at the rate they are going.http://valiance.shogn.net/donateThey would need to really show players what they are all about on Steam, really wow them to get folks in their corner. In my opinion, people are just not that interested in VO. It is just another KS project, which appears to be profanity in the video gaming realm.

Umm, yeah, I already got that from your first few posts. No need to keep repeating if you don't care about supporting VO or engage with Silverhelm to help assuage your doubts. With your point made multiple times, do you think you can move on and let others discuss/criticize the merits of the project?

I want to see discussions on updates to the character models, what people think of some improvements to the UI, what happened to Ron Friedman and some of the other ex CoH devs(did they move on, are we seeing their work yet), how do people like some of the environments, how well Unity 5 is working out, etc. Yeah, the info is trickling but I don't want to see that every time I notice an update to this thread.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Tannim222 wrote: Animations
Tannim222 wrote:

Animations are one of the hardest and most subjective aspects to get right, especially for a 3d game...

Does anyone remember the PS1 game Fighter Maker, although a great idea, animations were a massive pain in the a... neck. I'd imagine it's a whole lot harder if you have to do everything yourself.

Nyktos wrote:

The concept of Valiance taking place in a cyberpunk futuristic type of world were technology has produced superpowers is an interesting idea but I do see one problem with it and that is the simple fact that it might stunt player backstories as the PCs will be forced into either mutant gene powers or replicating power tech.

It's not that different from DCUO, where all the new heroes and villains got their powers from Brainiac tech.

Darth Fez wrote:

Just part French.

Which one?

When people ask me about my religion, I tell 'em I'd worship Cthulhu.

How bad could I possibly be? Let's see...

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islandtrevor72 wrote: I don
islandtrevor72 wrote:

I don't think you know what the word 'opinion' means.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Opinion

My opinion is VO is merely vaporware.

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SavageFist wrote: Phararri
SavageFist wrote:

Phararri wrote: SavageFist wrote: I'm sticking with both until I can no longer do so. With CoT I had expectations I tried to temper and have had to constantly readjust what to expect out of a volunteer effort over the years so I don't see why I can't do any less for VO where I may have to go even further in expectations since they have even less funds. They are in the same boat, people working real jobs then working on a dream in their free time. When you think about what they are trying to do and the effort/sacrifice involved, I'm not going to berate them for the timeframe unless they were fully funded by a huge publisher.
From my perspective their models and environments have improved over about the last year and now they have put up their new website which is a huge improvement over the old one. Just like here, I see improvement, very slow but it is there.The improvement is there, but not enough to justify my faith, or apparently the funds of others. A failed KS, and now the a site funding that wont budge, it aint looking good is what I am saying. That can change, but I don't see it, not by a long shot. I see them working on this part-time the entire way or scrapping the project; no way can these goals be met at the rate they are going.http://valiance.shogn.net/donateThey would need to really show players what they are all about on Steam, really wow them to get folks in their corner. In my opinion, people are just not that interested in VO. It is just another KS project, which appears to be profanity in the video gaming realm.Umm, yeah, I already got that from your first few posts. No need to keep repeating if you don't care about supporting VO or engage with Silverhelm to help assuage your doubts. With your point made multiple times, do you think you can move on and let others discuss/criticize the merits of the project?I want to see discussions on updates to the character models, what people think of some improvements to the UI, what happened to Ron Friedman and some of the other ex CoH devs(did they move on, are we seeing their work yet), how do people like some of the environments, how well Unity 5 is working out, etc. Yeah, the info is trickling but I don't want to see that every time I notice an update to this thread.

Then discuss character models and UI improvements, while I continue express my pessimism. No one is stopping you from posting what you want, don't try to control what I post. If you don't like it, don't read it. I am not cursing anyone out, nor flaming people. You like VO, I get it, I am pessimistic.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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"It's not that different from

"It's not that different from DCUO, where all the new heroes and villains got their powers from Brainiac tech."

Wow, that is so true, I never even thought of that. I guess the whole sci-fi hero thing has been done before.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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By the way, I am pulling for

By the way, I am pulling for these guys, because the superhero themed MMOs we have atm are lackluster. Those folks at DCUO refuse to listen to player feedback regarding customization, and it would be lovely for VO (Which could be the first to debut, despite my previous comments) give them a run and us PC players a solid avatar hero themed MMO. The way the devs and Columbus Nova pushes customization features to the side has bothered us DCUO loyalist for quite sometime. There are a plethora of threads regarding this issue, it is just not me whom feels this way, far from one man. Feel free to visit the forums and see for yourself.

I do not post much on the DCUO forums, however, lets say VO were able to push out a solid project, I would probably "respectfully-troll" the DCUO off topic forums with VO customization options, the way they trolled us loyals for years lol. I know, that is bad, lol, but I will be respectful, not my style to flame. However, I will have a grin on my face as I post. No idea why they ignore the numerous players requesting customization.

GL to the VO, a lot of PC folks are counting on you to deliver a solid super-hero project, considering they have tangible testing out.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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An update from VO on color

An update from VO on color guide to mob level vs your level:

With this update, it actually makes me think about CoT design. Will it be a Guild Wars 2 scenario where you level down to the zone or like CoH where mobs ignore you after so many levels above them and you receive no xp from them?

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Since it's a spiritual

Since it's a spiritual successor I think they'll go the same route as CoH.

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You know, I get that people

You know, I get that people have a right to their opinions, and should also have the right to voice them; respectfully and mindful of the opinions of others. After reading most of the posts on this site since it opened up all those many years ago, I realized that the best way to deal with those posters who seem to have nothing but negative comments to make, be it an OP or in response to what others have said, is to just add them to my ignore list.

Peace.

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StellarAgent wrote: You know
StellarAgent wrote:

You know, I get that people have a right to their opinions, and should also have the right to voice them; respectfully and mindful of the opinions of others. After reading most of the posts on this site since it opened up all those many years ago, I realized that the best way to deal with those posters who seem to have nothing but negative comments to make, be it an OP or in response to what others have said, is to just add them to my ignore list.Peace.

Personally, it is not that serious to me, but I don't hold grudges on forums. Will still like to hear folks whom I may not agree with have to say on other topics. I am not like that, unless someone is intentional spamming ads, sites, or posting racial crap constantly, I don't block folks, not my style. We can disagree as adults, does not have to be my way or the block way, but that is just me, to each its' own I suppose. I don't believe I have ever blocked anyone, save the gil sellers in FFXIV lol.

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http://namesakeradio.com

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Well, some good news. VO did

Well, some good news. VO did confirm they are still working with Ron Friedman, former senior animator on City of Heroes, as well as working with some former CoH devs. They can't provide any details right now but said they will eventually air a livestream chat with them at some point.

I've heard animation can be very difficult. I'm not talking about about moving a figure, making key frames but the underlying math. I think it was on CoH Titan someone said the math that goes into animation is difficult and almost a lost art as it is hard to find people to do that type of work. I wish I could remember the name they gave that type of math. It was both interesting yet way over my head. Probably not for everyone but I would like to know a little more about the approaches VO and CoT take. For VO, is there something Ron is offering that Unity can't do unless programmed? Is CoT sticking with Unreal offers? What does Unreal offer when it comes to smoothness and 'weight' of animation? Do they also have to have a programmer to achieve the look and feel they desire?

At least for me, knowing a little more makes me appreciate how much work goes into a game, not be as critical and marvel at what was created.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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SavageFist wrote: I've heard
SavageFist wrote:

I've heard animation can be very difficult. I'm not talking about about moving a figure, making key frames but the underlying math. I think it was on CoH Titan someone said the math that goes into animation is difficult and almost a lost art as it is hard to find people to do that type of work. I wish I could remember the name they gave that type of math. It was both interesting yet way over my head. Probably not for everyone but I would like to know a little more about the approaches VO and CoT take. For VO, is there something Ron is offering that Unity can't do unless programmed? Is CoT sticking with Unreal offers? What does Unreal offer when it comes to smoothness and 'weight' of animation? Do they also have to have a programmer to achieve the look and feel they desire?

Computer animation work is not trivial. But much of the advancement made over the years involves creating applications which make generating/editing animations easier and actually less "math intensive" for the average artist.
At its heart animation will always require serious and clever mathematical algorithms to accomplish. In fact your typical "GPU" video card is itself just a specialized computer that's strongly optimized towards preforming the specific types of math formulas/functions that are associated with graphics and animation processing. But despite the heavy dependance on math most modern animation applications actually function at a fairly high level and don't force their users to get too involved in the nitty-gritty of the underlying math involved.
I'm sure there are some animators out there who are well versed in the actual details of the math/code that's typically involved in their work. But honestly most of them are just very skilled artists who know how to use the editors to create things and just let the computer programs do all the "math" behind the scenes. Some old-fashioned "programming" is probably still required in special cases; but as time goes on the need to know how to do things on such a "bare metal" basis will become more or less obsolete.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Please, stop talking about

Please, stop talking about Valiance Online ^^
We want City of Titans, not Valiance Online...
And try Valiance Online open pre alpha... and you will not want anymore to play Valiance lol ^^

CoT Future Fan HERE

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Ysangard wrote: Please, stop
Ysangard wrote:

Please, stop talking about Valiance Online ^^
We want City of Titans, not Valiance Online...
And try Valiance Online open pre alpha... and you will not want anymore to play Valiance lol ^^

CoT Future Fan HERE

It's never really bothered me what people "talk" about - I tend to care more about what people are willing to give money to.
As for me I gave the CoT kickstarter a bunch of money and I haven't given the VO folks a dime. I have no ill-will against VO, but clearly I have a "favorite" in this race and I'll leave it at that...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Some Valiance concept art for

Some Valiance concept art for Skyeline Plaza.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Some more concept art for

Some more concept art for Skyeline Plaza. Enjoy.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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