Yep, they do over-promise, not to mention under-deliver. I kind of wish VO was in better hands, it seems great on paper, but I doubt the game will ever be released, even on Steam.

From VO FB "Open Pre-Alpha currently. We will make announcements about Alpha soon(tm)."

I took it seriously, until the soon(tm) stuff; that joke is getting old. Therefore I took it as a joke, so I guess the Alpha when take place somewhere between now and never lol. Oh well. I am patient, but if you say soon, I assume it will occur soon lol. This is why I like CoT. It is done when it is done, they fill us in, but don't make promises they may not be able to keep. If you all scroll down VO FB page, you will see that dev use the word soon quite often, but rarely has any of the stuff happened.

Lothic wrote:

You just have to settle for a better definition of Soon™. For instance compared to the heat death of the universe pretty much anything that you could ever care about will happen Soon™.

But is Soon™ going to be before proton decay? It's so hard to play games when your computer's protons are converting into leptons and photons...

Grimfox wrote:

Soon(tm) is something that I've always read to mean, "It's in progress and that is all that I have to say about that."

Eventually(tm) is code for "This is back burnered and we aren't working on it, don't wait for it, cause it's not coming Soon(tm)."

"Impossible" is code for "Shoot, that is a ton of work and I don't want to think about it and please stop asking questions about it"

I thought the reason the mushy/vague code words like Soon™ and Eventually™ existed in Devspeak was because the Devs would (in their perfect worlds) actually like to tell us peon players that certain things will NOT happen by Dev choice or are effectively IMPOSSIBLE regardless but instead of using that brutally harsh (yet completely honest) lanaguage which would upset our fragile little snowflake minds they use the diplomatic non-committal mush words that make it sound like things might still happen the way we want until we eventually forget about them and start bickering about something else. ;)

Lothic wrote:

Grimfox wrote:
Soon(tm) is something that I've always read to mean, "It's in progress and that is all that I have to say about that."
Eventually(tm) is code for "This is back burnered and we aren't working on it, don't wait for it, cause it's not coming Soon(tm)."
"Impossible" is code for "Shoot, that is a ton of work and I don't want to think about it and please stop asking questions about it"
I thought the reason the mushy/vague code words like Soon™ and Eventually™ existed in Devspeak was because the Devs would (in their perfect worlds) actually like to tell us peon players that certain things will NOT happen by Dev choice or are effectively IMPOSSIBLE regardless but instead of using that brutally harsh (yet completely honest) lanaguage which would upset our fragile little snowflake minds they use the diplomatic non-committal mush words that make it sound like things might still happen the way we want until we eventually forget about them and start bickering about something else. ;)

So similar to when moms and dads say "We'll see."

Ron Friedman update

http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/valiance-general/100-ron-friedman?limitstart=0

[i]Ron Friedman has worked with Valiance Online as a "consultant” only. He has met with our project's Lead Animator to assist with the direction, style, and presentation principles of the animations in a professional consulting capacity. He is not an actual member of the Valiance Online development team. We felt it was very important to clarify this as his current position at Disney Interactive does not allow such direct and active employment with third-party companies.[/i]

[i]After speaking with Ron, we have concluded that it is best that we clarify this miscommunication. We are going to be following up on other social references to ensure the possible misrepresentation be clarified as it is not our intention mislead or confuse our supporters, nor do we wish for Ron's association or involvement with our company to be compromised due to such business conflicts.[/i]

[i]For those who have reached out in regards to why our animations don't appear to have changed since our sessions with Ron, it is due to the fact that we've spent a lot of time incorporated principles that he taught us into various styles of presentation. With his guidance, we’ve experimented with different animations styles from exaggerated realism to over-the-top fantastical animations. Finding our happy balance between the two, we’ve made all new and unique animations for both the Super Strength and Street Brawling power sets which will be present in the upcoming patch. This will usher in a slew of new animations as we move into the alpha phase of product.[/i]

For those that don't know, Ron Friedman was the Senior Animator for City of Heroes and per VO, he is still providing consultation to the team. Good stuff. /thumbsup

They are moving into alpha in the coming weeks if I am not mistaken, should be interesting.

Yeah I felt like checking them out but the servers have been down for weeks apparently. "some time today [Tuesday]" was the last I heard :p

Welp, new patch seems totally broken....

maybe 3 costume pieces per slot, 5 or 6 powersets, and once i got in game I was met with the scream of audio error....

I agree.

It was a big mistake to let play everyone on a pre alpha game...
Valiance online have a little potential, i hope MWM will be safer.
CoT have clearly a bigger potential !!

Interdictor wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Think it's been said before but I'm sure that making the pre-alpha public may have been their biggest mistake.
Yes - letting the general public play the game before it goes gold is always very risky. I mean on the one hand there is actual controlled beta testing, and then on the other there is the recent "early access" phenomenon, which can be a double-edged sword at best.

I tell ya, It's given me a bad first impression. But the theory of it doesn't look good either. Their powersets are damn near clones of CoH.
Valiance:[url=https://postimg.org/image/ksfmqhhav/][img]https://s31.postimg.org/j0mnvkxy3/superstrength.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://postimage.org/][/url]
CoH:[url=https://postimg.org/image/o3wh3u8c7/][img]https://s31.postimg.org/y17hwwfy3/Image_07_30_2016_001.png[/img][/url][url=https://postimage.org/][/url]
Am I reading too much into it or are they exactly the same?

I mean, to be fair, how many powers can you write for "super strength"? Quick punch, slower punch, foot stomp, hand clap, throw object, etc. But attempt naming them differently, eh? :p

I was hoping CoT would have a "close range physical damage" theme that would encompass Super Strength, Martial Arts, Street Fighting, and other hand-to-hand fighting. Which would allow you to mix-and-match between fancy martial arts moves and brutally simple attacks.

But that is a hope.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Pretty sure CoT will have a melee set focusing on blunt-force type attacks which would encompass effectively all unarmed martial arts, most "brawling" type of fighting styles (super strength, street fighting and so on) and all blunt weaponry (like staffs, clubs, hammers). And of course the energy equivalents of those, and maybe some more.

All the fighting styles and weapon skins (along with weapon animations) are all interchangeable in our system. Even if we have a set called "super strength" it can can be customized by the player to look like "brawling", martial arts, or use weapons.

Does anyone see this game amounting up to much? Can someone who is tech savvy fill me in? The game is awful now, can they really improve that much during alpha? Can their unimplemented tech really make that much of a difference?

desviper wrote:

Yay, grouping of melee sets!
But does this mean weapons and hand-to-hand will also be under the same theme? This would mean punches can be added to an axe [set], which would be problematic with sheathing and drawing the weapon or punching with the weapon out?

What I'd want to see, in that case, would be the option of choosing an off-hand Punch animation, as an alternative to yet another weapon attack. Or, Perhaps the character passes their weapon to the off-hand and then punches with their main? Or a Kick would be a good break from routine. "You know, I used to be an adventurer like you..."

What would be Really Cool, is if we could select 2-3 animations for a given attack and the game would cycle between them. But that's a QoL expansion for later.

Be Well!
Fireheart

So the next update is the alpha phase and Steam? How is that going to work considering the current state of the game? I got my popcorn ready for this.

Valiance Online reminds me of Virtual Fighter for the Sega Saturn, but slower. Is that bad?

warcabbit wrote:

Today's update mentions one metal arm.
From our July 4th Update:
We can do one metal arm. We can do a metal arm halfway down the bicep, if we feel like it. We can do two metal fingers.
We can take that metal arm and put a glove on it. And that glove can be any arbitrary length.
Trust me when I say it's harder than it looks.

Right Thread 'cabbit? :p

Okay - so we have a pretty good idea of where Valiance Online is in terms of development. I'm wondering if we have as good an idea of where some of the other projects are currently;

Atlas Park Revival's updates are few and far-between. For a while I thought it was abandoned but they did post some new art/a new model not too long ago on their facebook page. Granted, they're not making a game per se., much of what they do is environmental (zones, buildings, etc.) - not exactly the most exciting stuff to see being constructed.

Heroes and Villains post weekly updates on what they have accomplished/are working on at the moment, but all that seems a little too good to be true. That said they have released some concept art, some character models, even a few animations. How does their game stack up against Valiance and CoT in terms of development, gameplay, etc?

I agree, Heroes and Villains updates are a comic book series, and a bad one at that. My beef with VO is this.

One month two weeks ago.

"We're preparing the first alpha patch as well as a blog outlining some of what is included in this patch as well as plans for alpha testing moving forward.

This patch will include:

- Character creator 3.0 (more details soon)

- The individual body region modification system which lets you customize arms and legs separate from the body (for example, evil scientists gave you one metal arm).

- Unified outfits and their components so everything has a standard (i.e. long gloves always go to the same point, short gloves go to a specific point, sleeves or pant legs can now cover gloves or boots, etc.)

- Final elements of the new website design including merging the game and web server database for unified logins

There will be many updates to powers and other systems in future patches which we will discuss in the blog.

Best GUESS is this patch will be ready by the end of this month but we will keep you posted."
http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/bulletins-announcements/210-coming-soon-alpha-patch-0-1-0#896

As of September 22, the servers are still down. I am not lashing on the peeps but these promises are getting a bit ridiculous. Don't say anything next time? I really don't trust these guys to be frank with you all. Same ol song update after update. it never ends.

I'll simply say there's a reason we never ever talk about what's going to be in a future update, with the VERY rare exception of some very vague hints in the one immediately before.

Empyrean wrote:

Shadow Elusive wrote:
I'll simply say there's a reason we never ever talk about what's going to be in a future update, with the VERY rare exception of some very vague hints in the one immediately before.
I appreciate and understand this.
While I know you guys get flak for not releasing or promising more, you've generally gotten burned the few times that you have.
I know there's a lot of pressure on you from mostly well-meaning people who don't understand that things don't work the way they think they should just because that's what they they think (I swear that sentence makes sense if you break it down). You've shown good discipline and restraint in what you've stated and released. You've by and large done an amazing job of learning from your mistakes and the mistakes of others.
Anyway, good job on staying focused and thank you for being willing to take on the burden and the heat of making the game so that all us armchair quarterbacks can criticize you till you have the game ready for us to play--and probably after ;P.

Indeed. And for a good example of what happens when a dev makes big promises about a game and then fails to deliver - just look at No Man's Sky. You can talk about features you would [I]like[/I] to have in the game, or ones you are trying to figure out, but it's better to keep your mouth shut and only [I]confirm[/I] things once they're reasonably locked down.

Smokey Bear wrote:

is City Of Titans up and running yet?

...No...And Val isn't really either.

SavageFist wrote:

A nice update from VO. Looks like they are finally moving to alpha.
http://valiance.shogn.net/forum/bulletins-news/234-the-road-to-the-alpha#1007
This part took me by surprise since I thought they were sticking to their guns on subscriptions. I guess not surprising though considering today's MMO market.
The first major business announcement that I’d like to share is that Valiance Online will be free-to-play.

Looks good. Now let's see the follow-through.

Looks interesting - I'll probably check it out when it's released. Not really that into the setting, but it might scratch an itch gameplay-wise. Most interested in what MWM is doing (and to a lesser extent APR) but hell I'll give all the successors a shot.

My level of concern is not quite so great as Phararri's, but I am concerned.

For one thing, there are already two or three superhero games out there now, (Marvel's Diablo-like game, DCUO, and CO) and they technically "got there" AFTER CoX, which was in some ways the second game (Freedom Force being the first) and is now gone. For another, gamers are fickle and transitory anyway. I know a guy that buys a game, plays it for like a month or two, then drops it for like a year, before coming back, if he ever does. If you can make a BETTER game, people will flock away from the inferior product to the superior one. It's possible that those same people will drop your game and flock to some other game in a few months after that, but at least you sold those people the up-front purchase of your game, so you've got that money and you have your hardcore group of fans too.

My biggest concern is that the market can't support so many hero games in the first place. I think it would have been FAR more ideal for Valiance and CoT to have been one single company making one product, and making it well. Competition lowers prices etc but if you flood the market with more widgets than anyone really wants, then you lose money and go out of business. My home town at one point had two comicbook stores that were located like a block away from each other. One failed. It wasn't because it was the one that opened later, it was because it was the one that was less well run and less well managed. The one that survived doesn't sell Magic cards and as such I have to go out of town to find a Magic event on a Friday night, which is a pain.

My other concern is that if Valiance has any advantage at all, to me the advantage is that they are, at present, a for-profit game company with paid employees, not an all-volunteer effort. There are a finite number of hours in the day, and people have jobs to go to. I'd rather that my game designer be doing it as their job 9am-5pm than as a hobby they do when they're not doing their job during off hours, personally. Paid employees have a clear mandate to produce work that is pleasing to the employer, volunteers can afford to complain and disagree and be intransigent about what they will or won't volunteer to do on a case by case basis, etc and are generally going to require more cat-herding to get the same work out of them that a paid labor force will give you for money.

It may be too late to "get there first", but it isn't too late to come correct when you do get there. Build a better game and people will play it. That's my expectation.

We'll see. Lot's of games looked great on the cover then ended up being terrible. I will admit, I like the look of Valiance's website more than this one, but then this game's forums are way busier. Also, I don't own a home gaming system and am not planning on buying one, and I don't have a Steam account at present. I'm indifferent to the whole Steam thing really. People who are apt to play a hero MMO probably don't care if its on Steam or not. You might get some advertising to the current Steam customers that way, but that's about it, and how much money is that costing you in the long run?

What grim said, Steam is my one stop for PC gaming, it is a huge community. VO aside, you should definitely sign up for a Steam account, it is free and gives players access to tons of indie and AAA titles, some which are F2P.

I just have a feeling we won't be seeing this one for a long time (CoT). It seems like every date gets pushed back further and further, and at this point, I am done keeping up and riding with VO since they are the closer lol. I will play when or if it even releases, but at this point, I only come here to discuss VO. I am kind of over CoT. Am I the only one whom feels this way? I just have to say this,and it has been bottled up in me for quite some time. I truly feel as if the wrong game was funded (Sorry....pains me to say that). VO would have been on Steam by this time imo, if the kickstarter was successful.

Another thing, I feel as if CoT gives VO a bad rep. I feel like folks are turning a deaf ear to VO because they feel as if CoT has declared many unfulfilled promises. Therefore any funded superhero mmo will feel their disdain and distrust. Imo VO will save the genre while gaining back that trust, which will be a good thing for CoT, as someone earlier mentioned.

StellarAgent wrote:

I'm sorry Phararri, but I disagree with your statement that CoT gives VO a bad rep. At the developer level they have been nothing but supportive of each other in the past. However, both have each been focused on their own projects as of late as they are both reaching a critical stage in their work. But if you were to ask what they thought of each other, I think their answer would surprise you.
I'm not as vocal as others may be, but I'm sure I'm not the only one on this forum who occasionally checks in on the progress of the TWO other Spiritual Successors to CoX. Just because we don't comment on it, doesn't meant that we don't also care about it. And the last time I was on the VO forums, I didn't get the feeling at all the anyone there was unhappy with the attitudes here on the CoT forums. Do we compare one to the other? Of course. Do we all have converging/diverging wishlists? Of course. So what? It doesn't make one better than the other. It also doesn't make one worse than the other. It just makes them different.
And now that VO has defined the origin of their Superheros powers, the forums and the players are going to polarize. Those who like that type of world will stick with it and those who don't will move on. While I personally am disappointed with the limitation that they are imposing on Origins, I am still looking forward to their Story Lines and Lore. THAT more than anything is what will keep me playing any game. Marvel, DCUO and CO all have Looping story lines that aren't going anywhere (IMHO), CoX had an expanding story line that kept me engaged for its entire lifespan, and you weren't locked into your contacts once you got past the first set. I tried other games that seemed to have an immersive and large story to them as well, but I found that once I had played through the first time, all my alts had to go through the Exact Same story. Boring.
So here I sit, reading, watching, and hoping for a true Successor to CoX. At least according to my tastes and values. We just have to be patient and wait to see WHO creates, in our OWN Personal Opinion that is.

My name is Empyrean, and I endorse this post ;P.

Seriously, there is plenty of room for more than one CoH successor if the goal isn't WoW-busting revenue--cause that ain't gonna happen--but merely a profitable and sustainable game.

CoH got so many things right that almost no other game has or does: really creating your own character with the visual and conceptual freedom to do almost whatever you want, a vast, open, and engaging lore that you can participate in long-term or completely ignore, an open-feeling world and story that moves forward and expands as you go.

I think CoH somehow managed to create a themepark game with a sandbox feel! The best of both worlds.

I read, and found an echo chamber. Incorrect dates being listed because someone previously thought it was one date or another. Others who never looked at updates. Yet others who only jump on the bandwagon.

Congratulations, it's an internet forum!

I've heard that and worse before.

One cannot begrudge them regardless. If we let it sink in, we're in the wrong business. Reality is, nobody remembers the game which was delayed the second longest, they only remember the longest (Duke Nukem Forever). They remember you as failed only if you take more than anyone else, or never come out at all. So, we, and VO, are both focused on getting things done, not to meet some arbitrary date to meet marketing demands, but when it's done right.

I agree with Doc. There are a zillion games people can play right now. New games come out all the time. Beating any one other game to the market by a week really does nothing, and if it became a priority over designing and building a really GOOD game, then you're only hurrying the rate at which you're running toward the cliff, like a lemming.

Besides which, The Last Guardian is now nearing the point it might replace Duke Nukem Forever for the top spot!

Although, the delayed game which has me frustrated is Cuphead, honestly. They began work on that in 2010, and it was due out this month originally. But, it will be well worth it from what I've seen so far.

Phararri wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:

I read, and found an echo chamber. Incorrect dates being listed because someone previously thought it was one date or another. Others who never looked at updates. Yet others who only jump on the bandwagon.
Congratulations, it's an internet forum!
I've heard that and worse before.
One cannot begrudge them regardless. If we let it sink in, we're in the wrong business. Reality is, nobody remembers the game which was delayed the second longest, they only remember the longest (Duke Nukem Forever). They remember you as failed only if you take more than anyone else, or never come out at all. So, we, and VO, are both focused on getting things done, not to meet some arbitrary date to meet marketing demands, but when it's done right.

Hmmm, I don't think so. I was around during the early kicksatrter stuff also, not here though. The other dates I posted were quotes from Missing World Media, and stuff which was said in 2014-15. I remember that whole thing with Zerohour and thought he was justified in his observation. That was one example of what I am referring to, which happened on these very forums. I do recall the YouTube page saying the things quoted in my last post, as-well as something to the extent of 2016 will not end without seeing CoT, paraphrasing here.

I have the original planned release schedule still up on my wall. I'll transcribe it for you:

Costume Creator access: ~Jan 2, 2015
Alpha: ~May 14, 2015
Beta: ~November 28, 2015
Target Release: November 29, 2016

This was all on Unreal Engine 3. We were offered 4 after the Kickstarter, and when all was considered, we went for it. This added *minimum* a year delay, something we did tell people when we were able to talk about it. The change opened up new doors and options across the board. For the costume builder, the change really kicked things up a notch, but added enough complexity to the artwork that it will likely not be released long before the first testing builds are in people's hands. All of this we informed people of when it became clear.

We did test videos showing what under development vs finished results looked like, to weigh if our original plan for Alpha and Beta would work. It became clear that enough people simply do not have the familiarity with development greyboxes to understand what they were seeing. As a result Alpha will have to be at a much later stage of development - after most of the artwork was in, rather than when the systems were playable as originally anticipated. That also means instead of 18 months of Alpha and Beta for people, we are looking more at a third of that. (for those who are interested in greybox, and how game development looks and feels, I highly recommend this article)

Do I wish we were further along? Absolutely. Will criticism move things forward? No. We made decisions based on the best available data at the time. It is easy to second guess, and hindsight is always 20/20. The most I can do is be honest about how things are going, and keep on plugging away at it.

It's an emotional thing, and we all just need to remember that. Honestly, with humans in general, emotion makes logic it's biatch almost every time in the end.

We all miss CoH (oh, so much). We all want CoT NAOWUAH!!! (I know I do). But, the simple truth is that we can't have it now, not if it is to be what it needs to be (which sucks!).

But emotion makes it hard to accept that we just simply can't have it now, and that this doesn't mean that we won't have it eventually, and that this is all ok and doesn't spell any kind of disaster.

So... HUZZAH! to MWM for being willing to ride out the storm of our emotions while they work to give us what we need rather than giving in to what we want by hamstringing the project's future.

It's a hard, hard wait, but many of us do get it. And those that don't generally mean well and are just struggling with the wait, which I completely empathize with.

Sally forth, MWM. Sally forth.

Or not, looks like they are in trouble once again. This is nothing new to some of us fans that follow Valiance. They over-promise and under-deliver. I think the project is dead but they will not come out and say so.

Look good, thanks for the update Savage. The site was a bit on and off this week. Some videos would be nice, still disappointed with the progress. Those pictures are not comforting, need to see much much more with everything they promised.

Safe to put a fork in this one?

VO

Vaporware Online?

Ok, sorry, I need to be respectful but people still holding out hope for this? Need to see the light. VO is a failed project, but the devs will not admit it. VO avoids all footage which include player models or NPC because they are actually further behind than most think.

Ever find it strange how the game is supposedly near Alpha but there are no character footage? Gameplay footage?

VO is further behind than most want top believe, I will go as far as to say the product has failed, and the devs know it.

VO will never see the light of day because out of the three, it is the first to officially fail.

Agree

I wish them all well but watching VO try to be a game is quite painful. The click and tab combat also annoys me. VO is trying to hard to be CoH; I think the mistakes developers make is trying too hard to be the next WoW, or next CoH rather than borrowing concepts and putting their own twist to it.

How is CoT combat system btw? I saw an early video, it looked action oriented?

Got it, thanks.

Cinnder wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
If you've played Final Fantasy XIV, you'll get a pretty good feel for the system we're aiming for. We have strived to avoid twitch mechanics like we find in games like TERA and DCUO.
Hey Doc, I was intrigued that you used FFXIV as a benchmark/example and not our old game. Are there features we can expect in CoT's combat that are in FFXIV but were not in the old game?

Mainly because you can't log into CoH today to directly compare, and nostalgea has a bad habit of glossing over features.