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Updated Classification and Specification Chart

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Huckleberry
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

While I'm not sure a strict "build ratings" system (with stars/numbers) is necessary it might be useful if the Devs provided a very generic set of descriptive phrases they could use with each build combination. Such phrases could be limited to things like "considered good for causal play" versus "intended for experienced players" while avoiding specifically defining things like "We the Devs think this is easy/hard". They could also stress things like "build X is good for general team or solo play" versus "build X is mainly intended for supportive team play". Phrases like this would provide useful info without necessarily dictating "you must play X exactly like this" or attempting to rate certain builds as being easier/harder than other builds.

I'm thinking this would be the best solution as well. I admit I did mention a rating system could be generated by looking through all the beta feedback surveys and would represent the playerbase's own assessments, I don't necessarily feel that a star system is the goal of the effort and if people are wrapped up around that solution, I think they are losing sight of the original goal of difficulty rating systems in the first place. The whole reason I would want a difficulty ratings system is to help new players or inexperienced players choose power sets that let them play with the most gentle learning curve, or to point out to experienced players which sets might provide the greatest challenge. And before anyone addresses skill ceiling again, I am certainly willing to concede that any and all power sets could have an amazingly high skill ceiling at end-game when we start getting into a more horizontal progression system. I am instead referring to the player skill required throughout the levelling process as assessed by the beta feedback.

Lothic, it looks like you understand why the beginners would need to know that if they choose a difficult set no one is going to stop them; but if they get frustrated with it, then maybe it was because of the difficult powerset choice and not the game itself.

So a few choice phrases in the powerset descriptions could go a long way towards helping players understand the play style and learning curve associated with them. I know you were throwing up a couple of suggestions, but knowing this forum crowd, they are far more eager to attack your word choices than they are to attempt to understand what you tried to say. So I would stay away from descriptions like "intended for experienced players" and instead use something more akin to "this power set requires the player to balance power and momentum resources more than most others in order to get the most out of it," or the way the existing power set descriptions for Solid Form

Quote:

While Solid Form is still very functional while moving around, it is at its best when picking a place and refusing to budge. Positional awareness is a key strategy in making the most of this set’s abilities.

and Devices

Quote:

Devices requires smart placement of your abilities putting them to maximum use to hinder your enemies or to help your group.

provide a more descriptive idea of the concerns and limitations of the set. This way we're not making anyone feel any better or worse about themselves but at the same time we're making sure they know they are going to have a bit more of a challenge, or less of one, as the case may be.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
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Yeah the actual words used
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic, it looks like you understand why the beginners would need to know that if they choose a difficult set no one is going to stop them; but if they get frustrated with it, then maybe it was because of the difficult powerset choice and not the game itself.

Yeah the actual words used don't matter to me as much as the need to convey the overall amount of "challenge" a typical player might face while playing a certain kind of build.

Basically we both know that some builds are so simplistically straightforward that you could probably set them up with a basic AFK macro and they'd almost play themselves for hours whereas other builds require so much "hands on" constant attention/effort that they're like juggling 5 running chainsaws at the same time. Sure the latter might be fun for someone who knows what they're getting into but a brand new player would likely just keep cutting various body parts off trying to deal with it.

So while I don't want the game to outright say "you must be an expert to play build X, Y or Z" I still want it to manage to convey, even if tacitly, that some builds are meant for "shallow-end" players while others require huge amounts of patience, experience or both.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Huckleberry
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Lothic, it looks like you understand why the beginners would need to know that if they choose a difficult set no one is going to stop them; but if they get frustrated with it, then maybe it was because of the difficult powerset choice and not the game itself.
Yeah the actual words used don't matter to me as much as the need to convey the overall amount of "challenge" a typical player might face while playing a certain kind of build.
Basically we both know that some builds are so simplistically straightforward that you could probably set them up with a basic AFK macro and they'd almost play themselves for hours whereas other builds require so much "hands on" constant attention/effort that they're like juggling 5 running chainsaws at the same time. Sure the latter might be fun for someone who knows what they're getting into but a brand new player would likely just keep cutting various body parts off trying to deal with it.
So while I don't want the game to outright say "you must be an expert to play build X, Y or Z" I still want it to manage to convey, even if tacitly, that some builds are meant for "shallow-end" players while others require huge amounts of patience, experience or both.

And let's not forget the experienced player who just wants some enjoyable game time without having to juggle chainsaws. Sometimes, I just like to throw on the cape and go punch bad guys, you know?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
blacke4dawn
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Would listing 2-3 strengths

Would listing 2-3 strengths and weaknesses respectively when comparing them to all other sets of the same type do the job of potentially conveying how "difficult" it may be to play it?

Huckleberry
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Would listing 2-3 strengths and weaknesses respectively when comparing them to all other sets of the same type do the job of potentially conveying how "difficult" it may be to play it?

Something like that might work, like a bulleted list perhaps. I've always found, however, that when I have a task like this I always end up forcing the information to fit the format. In other words, I feel like I'd have to start reaching for, nearly inventing, strengths and weaknesses if there aren't enough to fill in the 'quota' or omitting some if the 'quota' is exceeded.

Using your idea, I think it could look something like this:

Let's say a player was looking at the Invulnerability Protection Power Set:

Strengths

  • Fairly straightforward protection set
  • reduces damage received so less healing is required
  • Best against Physical Damage

Weaknesses

  • minimal damage avoidance
  • minimal inherent healing included
  • less effective against energy and exotic damage types

and compare it to the Atrophic Aura Protection Power Set:

Strengths

  • ability to passively deal damage back to melee attackers and nearby opponents
  • includes some healing abilities
  • no vulnerability to any damage type

Weaknesses

  • must use experience and judgment to know which protections to activate at any time
  • least amount of total protection provided of the protection power sets
  • most susceptible to ranged opponents

Is this kind of what you were thinking?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Tannim222
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

So a few choice phrases in the powerset descriptions could go a long way towards helping players understand the play style and learning curve associated with them. I know you were throwing up a couple of suggestions, but knowing this forum crowd, they are far more eager to attack your word choices than they are to attempt to understand what you tried to say. So I would stay away from descriptions like "intended for experienced players" and instead use something more akin to "this power set requires the player to balance power and momentum resources more than most others in order to get the most out of it," or the way the existing power set descriptions for Solid Form
Quote:
While Solid Form is still very functional while moving around, it is at its best when picking a place and refusing to budge. Positional awareness is a key strategy in making the most of this set’s abilities.
and Devices
Quote:
Devices requires smart placement of your abilities putting them to maximum use to hinder your enemies or to help your group.
provide a more descriptive idea of the concerns and limitations of the set. This way we're not making anyone feel any better or worse about themselves but at the same time we're making sure they know they are going to have a bit more of a challenge, or less of one, as the case may be.

That is why I wrote the descriptions that way. I wanted to impart a sense for how they play and impart that some require more effort in how they play compared to the ease of play for others.


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TitansCity
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By the way, i don't remember

By the way, i don't remember you broach the "main" ability of the tanks in those description : the taunt.
Does it works like a power or does it woks winthin the powers ? (like damages around you)

Pyromantic
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Quoting a portion of my

Quoting a portion of my compilation relevant to what I found on taunts:

Quote:

Taunt will exist but as an effect rather than a power. It is only one style of “tanking” and not a requirement to effectively tank. Taunts may work by reducing the damage a target does to characters other than the taunter.

Tannim222
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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Quoting a portion of my compilation relevant to what I found on taunts:
Quote:
Taunt will exist but as an effect rather than a power. It is only one style of “tanking” and not a requirement to effectively tank. Taunts may work by reducing the damage a target does to characters other than the taunter.

That info is out of date refarding damage reduction. Taunt like it existed in the old game is not used in CoT. You won’t see “taunt”’in Protection sets. As taunting is but one way to “tank”’for your group.

Taunt is instead a type of control mechanic which affects how powers work (who can be targeted) and does not affext AI directly by force-locking to the taunter. It is also non-binary which means there are gradations to this mechanic.

If you want a tank that acrively “taunts” targets, you will want to take the appropriate Mastery Power(s).


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

If you want a tank that acrively “taunts” targets, you will want to take the appropriate Mastery Power(s).

Should i must understand that the "holly trinity" Tank/Dps/Support is not really maintained by default ?
I mean, the Protection Set is a tank set isn't it ? or it's just a set of protections with no taunt by default and we must put masteries and refinement to improve the taunts ?

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
If you want a tank that acrively “taunts” targets, you will want to take the appropriate Mastery Power(s).
Should i must understand that the "holly trinity" Tank/Dps/Support is not really maintained by default ?
I mean, the Protection Set is a tank set isn't it ? or it's just a set of protections with no taunt by default and we must put masteries and refinement to improve the taunts ?

It would seem to be the latter. A set of protections with no default taunt but a form of taunting can be obtained through masteries. This means that anyone who has protection as a secondary or a tertiary doesn't become a pseudo tank they just become tougher.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
If you want a tank that acrively “taunts” targets, you will want to take the appropriate Mastery Power(s).
Should i must understand that the "holly trinity" Tank/Dps/Support is not really maintained by default ?
I mean, the Protection Set is a tank set isn't it ? or it's just a set of protections with no taunt by default and we must put masteries and refinement to improve the taunts ?
It would seem to be the latter. A set of protections with no default taunt but a form of taunting can be obtained through masteries. This means that anyone who has protection as a secondary or a tertiary doesn't become a pseudo tank they just become tougher.

When they say "taunt" they mean the mechanic of forcing NPC's to attack you and only you, a.k.a the snap-aggro ability.

I'm sure they will have some form of threat table were threat can be generated and maintained through a few means so that tanks can fairly easily be the "center of attention" in encounters, but it won't be done by a default taunt mechanic as it was in CoH. Here tanks will have to actively work at being top of the threat table.

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Stalwart Masteries:

Stalwart Masteries:
Living Target: You are best at drawing your enemy's attention away from allies.

Bruiser: Your attacks help debilitate foes over time.

Battle Leader: When your allies focus on you, their attention improves your ability to defend them.

Ruggedness: You can shrug off more damage.

Protector: Your team strengthens your resolve.

Grabbed this from the compilation of info thread. Seems that battle leader will likely grant you the aggro of allies targetting you, and living target would be a big ol' threat generator. The rest seem to offer just damage mitigation which is a tanks job. Not too sure about protector though...

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Stalwart Masteries:
Living Target: You are best at drawing your enemy's attention away from allies.
Bruiser: Your attacks help debilitate foes over time.
Battle Leader: When your allies focus on you, their attention improves your ability to defend them.
Ruggedness: You can shrug off more damage.
Protector: Your team strengthens your resolve.
Grabbed this from the compilation of info thread. Seems that battle leader will likely grant you the aggro of allies targetting you, and living target would be a big ol' threat generator. The rest seem to offer just damage mitigation which is a tanks job. Not too sure about protector though...

I got a different impression from Battle leader. First, my impression requires an assumption to be true. The assumption is that we will have the ability to set a focus target. This is nearly a standard feature in MMO nowadays, but we haven't been outright told it will exist in CoT, so I have to list it as an assumption. So, my impression of Battle Leader is that it applies a damage reduction of some sort to all allies who have you as their focus target. Other games have this feature, typically a body-guard style feature in which the tank character or healer character can pick another target and take some of their damage. In this case, it may be damage sharing, or it may be resistance or subtraction or any other protection mechanic that MWM decides to put in place. That's my understanding of the description for Battle Leader, but it could very well affect the threat meter like you suppose, such that any threat generated by your allies that have you as a focus is shared with you, for instance.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Could be the case. It could

Could be the case. It could be both our interpretations, grants an aggro boost to tank, and a def boost to allies.

Edit: the aggro thing would be nice so that healers don't get targeted for doing their job.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Neither currently grants any

Neither currently grants any change to the Stalwart’s threat rating.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Neither currently grants any change to the Stalwart’s threat rating.

Interesting... Can you shed some light on how they're planned function? Or is it too soon, or something?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Tannim222
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Neither currently grants any change to the Stalwart’s threat rating.
Interesting... Can you shed some light on how they're planned function? Or is it too soon, or something?

Sorry, I can’t discuss the design functions of the Mastery powers. I just wanted to point out current speculation wasn’t accurate.


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Dang. So close...

Dang. So close...

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Yes, we have focus targets.

Yes, we have focus targets. Brain dead to include.

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