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Updated Classification and Specification Chart

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Mr Tricksy
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This looks like an

This looks like an interesting evolution of CoH's archetypes and powerpools. On first look I'd say it looks really promising.

But the more I look at it the more I wonder.

"Assault"? Is that a mix of melee and ranged? If so call it eg. Mixed or at least include a description with the chart.

Why are Manipulation and Pets not together in this chart? They're both Offensive/Mitigation?

"Manipulation"? What's that? All of the other terms are standard fare for MMOs but in this context manipulation is unclear. Ok you have CoH's blaster as an example of manipulation secondary. In CoH blaster secondaries were control / damage. That seems like an odd mix for this chart which separates the two at one level and then joins them here.

So that makes me take a step back and think about the chart in relation to CoH. What I see then is essentially the same powerset combos but spread across more and more narrowly defined archetypes. I'm not sure that is an improvement over CoH. It's just more categories to describe the same pool of things.

Personally I'd get rid of manipulation as a category. I don't think it's necessary. Move those into the Control category and be done with it, even if they have some damage powers. Or better yet keep all the damage powers where they make sense in the Offense sets.

Warden, Centurion and Director - are they necessary / value adding? Because if you got rid of them and juggled the pet classes around a little you'd have a nice, even split with all classes having one offense and one mitigation set.

Not only would that make more immediate sense to a potential player but I think it's better game design. CoH had more than a few problems with controllers being so useless solo'ing at launch until they hit 32 and got pets - at which point they became slightly god-like. They tried to fix that with the extra level 40+ powerpools and various other (often unpopular) changes. You can also see they took a more balanced approach with villains, making sure every AT had a better balance of damage and other abilities.

So I really think dividing them up so they all have one offense and one mitigation set is a better idea. And I say that personally having mostly played controllers in CoH who I loved but I know had too much defense/control.

thormaeb
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My main character was level

My main character was level 50 before I even started looking at forums and whatnot, and all I ever saw on the forums was how dark/dark blaster had no synergy. "Why does a blaster need to acc debuff? just kill them before they hit you" and things about the mix of melee and range. People talked about how the cones didnt fit with the PBAoEs etc... All I saw in all that variety was a variety of situations in which I could be adept :-) I had 3 melee single targets, 3 melee AoEs, 3 ranged single targets, 3 ranged AoEs, I slotted up enough powers to perma hold an AV and used the epic pool for a shield. I was like a blaster/scrapper/troller/(off-tank) with essentially 3 Moment of Glory abilities. That being said, my "lack of synergy" turned into about a 6-power cycle for any situation I found myself in! Analyzing a power set and playing it can be very different lol

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Mr Tricksy wrote:
Mr Tricksy wrote:

This looks like an interesting evolution of CoH's archetypes and powerpools. On first look I'd say it looks really promising.
But the more I look at it the more I wonder.
"Assault"? Is that a mix of melee and ranged? If so call it eg. Mixed or at least include a description with the chart.
Why are Manipulation and Pets not together in this chart? They're both Offensive/Mitigation?
"Manipulation"? What's that? All of the other terms are standard fare for MMOs but in this context manipulation is unclear. Ok you have CoH's blaster as an example of manipulation secondary. In CoH blaster secondaries were control / damage. That seems like an odd mix for this chart which separates the two at one level and then joins them here.
So that makes me take a step back and think about the chart in relation to CoH. What I see then is essentially the same powerset combos but spread across more and more narrowly defined archetypes. I'm not sure that is an improvement over CoH. It's just more categories to describe the same pool of things.
Personally I'd get rid of manipulation as a category. I don't think it's necessary. Move those into the Control category and be done with it, even if they have some damage powers. Or better yet keep all the damage powers where they make sense in the Offense sets.
Warden, Centurion and Director - are they necessary / value adding? Because if you got rid of them and juggled the pet classes around a little you'd have a nice, even split with all classes having one offense and one mitigation set.
Not only would that make more immediate sense to a potential player but I think it's better game design. CoH had more than a few problems with controllers being so useless solo'ing at launch until they hit 32 and got pets - at which point they became slightly god-like. They tried to fix that with the extra level 40+ powerpools and various other (often unpopular) changes. You can also see they took a more balanced approach with villains, making sure every AT had a better balance of damage and other abilities.
So I really think dividing them up so they all have one offense and one mitigation set is a better idea. And I say that personally having mostly played controllers in CoH who I loved but I know had too much defense/control.

Okay, first of all the names of the power sets are the way they are for the sake of convenience of everyone who has played CoX. Second there is no chance that we are ever going to just take the manipulation sets and put them into control. ever. It's a separate powerset altogether, and a lot of people want the blaster or "hunter" as where, which by the way has MANIPULATION not control as a secondary. Third we are not changing those 3 specifications you listed. It's too late to take them out and replace them with something else, and there isn't a reason to do it in the first place. Not everything has to be "offense/mitigation" and a lot of people, me included want to try them out.

Since you're obviously new here I'm going to give you these links:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page

This links to all the information about the game CoT is using for inspiration

http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-powers-are-going-be-please-sticky

This shows how powers are going to work and how visual decoupling is going to work

http://cityoftitans.com/forum/kickstarter-update-reference-list

And this shows all the updates for CoT from their kickstarter that they still update every Wednesday organized by lore, mechanics and information about the developers

Please enjoy you're stay :)

Orphan
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The executor will be bad in

The executor will be bad in pvp. Not nearly enough support to keep themselves alive especially if break frees are as accessible as they were in coh. Bastion will be crowd control king with dom/kd (will be the best at tanking imo). Vindicator will be a monster. Defender support scaling with dom secondary power boost? Yeah talk about op (in pvp and pve). This will be my first character :P. Gunner will be great in pve (good defense, average dps). It will be average in pvp solo but pretty beast when grouped with support toon (will see more use for blasters imo if your looking for good burst dmg). Centurion and bulwark will be very similar in playstyle with centurion having a bit more control (more or less the same thing one should be removed). Warden and bodyguard do the same thing if you really think about it (warden should be removed imo) Bodyguard looks interesting. A radiation or thermal scrapper sounds interesting.

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Orphan wrote:
Orphan wrote:

The executor will be bad in pvp. Not nearly enough support to keep themselves alive especially if break frees are as accessible as they were in coh. Bastion will be crowd control king with dom/kd (will be the best at tanking imo). Vindicator will be a monster. Defender support scaling with dom secondary power boost? Yeah talk about op (in pvp and pve). This will be my first character :P. Gunner will be great in pve (good defense, average dps). It will be average in pvp solo but pretty beast when grouped with support toon (will see more use for blasters imo if your looking for good burst dmg). Centurion and bulwark will be very similar in playstyle with centurion having a bit more control (more or less the same thing one should be removed). Warden and bodyguard do the same thing if you really think about it (warden should be removed imo) Bodyguard looks interesting. A radiation or thermal scrapper sounds interesting.

I think it is way too early to make these kind of statements. You are using the phrase "will be" when it is just a theory you have based just on what generalized kind of power sets a specification has. It's fun to theorize, but don't state them as blatant facts when they are not.

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Orphan wrote:
Orphan wrote:

My opinion is as follows...The executor will be bad in pvp. Not nearly enough support to keep themselves alive especially if break frees are as accessible as they were in coh. Bastion will be crowd control king with dom/kd (will be the best at tanking imo). Vindicator will be a monster. Defender support scaling with dom secondary power boost? Yeah talk about op (in pvp and pve). This will be my first character :P. Gunner will be great in pve (good defense, average dps). It will be average in pvp solo but pretty beast when grouped with support toon (will see more use for blasters imo if your looking for good burst dmg). Centurion and bulwark will be very similar in playstyle with centurion having a bit more control (more or less the same thing one should be removed). Warden and bodyguard do the same thing if you really think about it (warden should be removed imo) Bodyguard looks interesting. A radiation or thermal scrapper sounds interesting. Again, this is all my opinion

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Yes all speculation of course

Yes all speculation of course. Your thought?

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Orphan wrote:
Orphan wrote:

Yes all speculation of course. Your thought?

Once you add in Mastery options, the speculation starts to shift a lot.

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I understand. There are

I understand. There are different strokes for different folks, but the sheer number of options you had in combat in CoH is what made it so fun! You said you would pass on ice bolt. That's great that you can! GW2 makes you change weapons and you have no control of which powers you received. That is what's great about having so many options. I think with each weapon on an elementalist, I liked 2 out of 5. I was just stuck with what I had, because I had (as an example) a staff equipped. Now I suppose you could slot whatever you want in any slots. So, if I recall correctly, in CoH you didn't have to place all powers right? Or was it that you simply do not have to use all powers. If so many powers are a challenge, then modify your options yourself and place only desired powers in convenient keys. However, isn't it great to have all those other powers on back up just in case you get into trouble?

I do get your argument, but I have to say I vote for something similar to CoH. :) I loved toggle powers like the auras on controllers. Fun!

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Dztblk wrote:
Dztblk wrote:

I understand. There are different strokes for different folks, but the sheer number of options you had in combat in CoH is what made it so fun! You said you would pass on ice bolt. That's great that you can! GW2 makes you change weapons and you have no control of which powers you received. That is what's great about having so many options. I think with each weapon on an elementalist, I liked 2 out of 5. I was just stuck with what I had, because I had (as an example) a staff equipped. Now I suppose you could slot whatever you want in any slots. So, if I recall correctly, in CoH you didn't have to place all powers right? Or was it that you simply do not have to use all powers. If so many powers are a challenge, then modify your options yourself and place only desired powers in convenient keys. However, isn't it great to have all those other powers on back up just in case you get into trouble?
I do get your argument, but I have to say I vote for something similar to CoH. :) I loved toggle powers like the auras on controllers. Fun!

Lets be honest about this: The weapons dictated the play style with some being more short ranged, some more defence orientated, and what not. And the fact that you could change between 2 sets with just a button press, even whilst in the middle of combat was not really a problem. The only time that it became a problem was if you needed to fulfill that 3rd role... but you could still swap weapons out as long as you were out of combat.

There were times in CoX that I wish I had taken X ability, but never did. Sure, I could have used a 2ndary build, however the 30 minute "travel to trainer" limitation put paid to me swapping out quickly according to the situation.[1]

The thing is, is that the weapon controlled 50% of the skills that you use at any point in time. In CoX terms, that is almost on par with just the secondary power sets choice.

At least in GW2, you could change your weapon type to another if you so desired (although I will admit I don't like the recent change where weapons skills now unlock according to player level, and not how much you used the skills; but that is another matter).

[1] I think that no matter what, situations will occur where your character will not have the *ideal* skill set needed. Player skill comes into adapting to the situation and dealing with it. And the player also has to accept that failure is indeed an option, but that does not mean that he hasn't learnt from the experience.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Once you add in Mastery options, the speculation starts to shift a lot.

Can't emphasize this enough...,

- ...by endgame in CoX, my heroic brute put down more mobs at range than up close if that gives any clue how radically different ancillary powers made things. I can only assume masteries will fall under the same manner of influence, and from what I've gleaned...they may be available sooner so it's more developmental to the character build instead of being 'icing on the cake'. Sure, a blaster may finally get defenses...but never as good as a tanker just like a tanker could eventually blast...but nowhere near a carpet bombing blaster.

- As to different weaponry/power sets?...well, I suppose temp powers might fill this gap. Not really for this idea because it'd be a lot like saying, 'Well, Cap's shield is nice but I'd like to swap between Shield Defense and Regen'. I can't imagine the sheer number of hours of life that have been lost trying to balance the power sets...having access to multiple power sets would probably be a little too much of a game changer. Opponent vulnerable to fire? No problem...I'll swap to my flame power set! It would steal the uniqueness that makes a character in my honest opinion...

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uunaamzszw

uunaamzszw

ПТН ПНХ

uauvbilpxh

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Just stumbled across all this

Just stumbled across all this place this morning, as a CoH/V vet. Way cool. Just taking a look around is giving me hope. And I'm seeing "pets," and since Mastermind was a favorite, this gives me something to look forward too.

Peace,
Brehon

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nailiVial wrote:
nailiVial wrote:

uunaamzszw
ПТН ПНХ
uauvbilpxh

English? Espanol? Francais? Deutsch?

Unicode garble?

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Russian is my guess.

Russian is my guess. Cyrillic alphabet, at least.

Edit: If I'm remembering right. On this device, it seems less like Cyrillic.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Well it's the only thing he's

Well it's the only thing he's ever commented so.....

Anywho, when can we see an updated version of this since Zombie's out and there're new conflicts? :p

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Well it's the only thing he's ever commented so.....
Anywho, when can we see an updated version of this since Zombie's out and there're new conflicts? :p

There are?

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

As of tonight's update, the Control/Support Spec will be named "Tactician", which I find better than "Director"; Ranged/Support will be "Striker" which i'm divided about, it doesn't imply ranged or support, and doesn't sound as cool as Partisan; Support/Ranged will be "Guardian".
This leaves Melee/Manipulation blank, since "Striker" has been moved, and the Class for Support is also now blank, since "guardian" has been moved, which I'm glad about.

A KS update changed some of the names.

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As the idea of charging up a

As the idea of charging up a power to get more accuracy and or damage came up, I had a thought: Instead of having to hold down a button (tying up the fingers of a 2 finger typist-like me), instead, have an option to set it up so that there was a "release" button, charging or holding a charge until it is released...

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I'm not quite sure what you

I'm not quite sure what you mean by having a release in refernece to freeing up a person's fingers. I will describe how charged powers are being set up:

A charged power requires the power icon be held down and upon release or when the maximum alloted charge time is reached, the power is then triggered.

And these types of powers won't be common place or required unless the player wants to gain the specific effects (or improved versions therof) of the related power. Basically, if a player doesn't want to charge the power they don't have to. Just expect that the power is always going to have more to it when it is charged.


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I think he meant click once

I think he meant click once to charge...click again to release...which could be the same button or different ones. He does not want to hold as it ties up his fingers. (I think...could be wrong)

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In regards to Charge shots:

In regards to Charge shots:
So long as there's no issue like the cooldown happening while charge is held, it's probably least annoying to keep the charge permanently held with the button.

Let's all be honest here: One of the main attractions of charged shots is annihilating an entire clump of enemies as soon as they enter your firing range (aka "they're on screen", unless playing CoH Blasters where your snipe was shorter than their shotgun cone). It's an alpha, although a perfectly designed wave-cannon should offer a greater total DPS than if you'd fired off normal blasts the whole time provided you fire immediately on maximum charge; of course with a similar energy cost and the losses incurred by being interrupted by a good enough hit or mez or knockback while charging as a risk.

The only time an indefinite charge is really any sort of issue is when a whole group basically does a false-start, and a limited hold either means you cause engagement when the rest of the party wasn't going to (significantly reducing the perceived value of the ability or player, and rightly so), or causing one to simply give up the charge and fire a less complete alpha as a result several seconds later.

It's really just a quality of life issue, but a very important one when using charge systems.

For more ideas of all the many many ways a charge ability can be created or differ, please do refer to R-Type, where they range from 'single target' pile-bunkers that one-shot anything in the game (you kind of deserve it for having held the line without firing your main guns for 45s) to screen-wide extended irradiation beams meant to just push through SEVERAL groups of enemies as they come at you sequentially, to a short PBAoE pulse that sends your defensive bits into a deadly spinning barrier AND turns your 'peashooter' into a 'rear-exhaust'-brutalizing reality-violator of a machinegun, to dimensional detonations that couldn't care what your defenses are because everything caught within is going to explode outwards, to instant and highly destructive data scans of everyone in the area, to gigantic single blasts that annihilate anything out to their max range, scenery and line of sight be damned, to angry summoned spirits latching on and exploding everywhere, to swarms of missiles to sprays of explosive toxic gasses to self-targeting laser lock-ons, to manually guided moving damage AoEs and basically anything else in between.

There's also another charge alternative, the "as long as you touch nothing" type, that always auto-charges, but is particularly weak when fired early. This could easily be a 'hotkey 1' deal that's a piddling peashooter when held down but a proper massive blast when fully charged.

Charging, after all, is just one triggering and scaling mechanic. What we can do with it is endless!

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Novacat wrote:
Novacat wrote:

Charging, after all, is just one triggering and scaling mechanic. What we can do with it is endless!

There's an argument to be made that Powers which in City of Heroes had "long" animation times ought to be remade using the Charge mechanic. Why? Because then the Player gets to CONTROL how long the animation takes (because it's variable depending on the amount of time spend Charging the attack) rather than fixed. It's the difference between a 4 second animation, in all circumstances (including corpse blasting) ... versus an animation that can be 1-4 seconds long, as determined by the Player. The "full power" setting still requires the entire 4 seconds of Charge and animation to reach, but with Charging you have the OPTION to release the Power faster for less "oomph" because the situation demands that it happen NOW rather than later.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Novacat wrote:
Charging, after all, is just one triggering and scaling mechanic. What we can do with it is endless!
There's an argument to be made that Powers which in City of Heroes had "long" animation times ought to be remade using the Charge mechanic. Why? Because then the Player gets to CONTROL how long the animation takes (because it's variable depending on the amount of time spend Charging the attack) rather than fixed. It's the difference between a 4 second animation, in all circumstances (including corpse blasting) ... versus an animation that can be 1-4 seconds long, as determined by the Player. The "full power" setting still requires the entire 4 seconds of Charge and animation to reach, but with Charging you have the OPTION to release the Power faster for less "oomph" because the situation demands that it happen NOW rather than later.

I did feel that way about SNIPE! :{

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You're not the only one who

You're not the only one who dislikes the idea of Snipe type animations taking a really long time, during which the battlefield shifts, rendering your attack moot. It was a problem in City of Heroes, and it was a problem (for Snipers using Torqueshell Rifles with their long animation windup) in Tabula Rasa.

Heck, Redlynne, my MA/SR/Soul Scrapper used Moonbeam in her build and it took a whopping 6 seconds to animate! Being able to put that attack Power onto a Charge mechanic (along with all other Interruptable Snipe Powers) would have made a HUGE difference!


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Would support also be

Would support also be considered to be debuffing the enemies also? or is it just healing and buffing teammates?

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In the frameworks we've been

In the frameworks we've been referencing, de-buffing falls under the umbrella of 'Support'.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Am I the only one who likes to call a spade a spade?
Range DPS
Melee DPS
Tank
Buff
Debuff
Pets
that's our 6 classes. Are you a Ranged DPS Tank? Good I know what that is.. Are you a "Vindicator".. crap.. what is that supposed to mean again…
I love style but I prefer substance. Naming the actual types for cosmetic reasons seems to only succeed in making people more confused. If anything I'd love if the style was specific to City of Titans and not randomly picked from a Thesaurus

I happen to agree with this. And the variants would be by power-sets chosen.
I did try for an assault/mitigation scrapper and was working on a workable energy/energy Brute in CoX...
I hope that type of thing would be easy in the new system... Energy/energy brute was an end-hog, but, had real potential, especially scouting type activities...

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I agree that the

I agree that the proliferation of Names is confusing and a little silly. It would be much easier to talk about functions. Melee, Range, Control, Defense, Support, Pets... that covers everything, doesn't it?

Range/Melee = Glass Canon = Blaster, right?
Melee/Defense = Scrapper
Defense/Melee = Tank... but
Defense/Control = Tank, also, right?
Defense/Range = I dunno, another Tank?
Etc. Etc.

My point, I guess, is that it can be a lot easier to talk of power-class, or function, than it is to figure out or remember what all of the Names mean. And the more names we have to deal with, the more confusing things get.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I agree that the proliferation of Names is confusing and a little silly. It would be much easier to talk about functions. Melee, Range, Control, Defense, Support, Pets... that covers everything, doesn't it?
Range/Melee = Glass Canon = Blaster, right?
Melee/Defense = Scrapper
Defense/Melee = Tank... but
Defense/Control = Tank, also, right?
Defense/Range = I dunno, another Tank?
Etc. Etc.
My point, I guess, is that it can be a lot easier to talk of power-class, or function, than it is to figure out or remember what all of the Names mean. And the more names we have to deal with, the more confusing things get.
Be Well!
Fireheart

And that is even before you get to the actual powersets, where even *where* on the "Tank/Glass Cannon"/"Melee/Range"line you will sit can change as well....

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Is the classification

Is the classification/specification map set in stone then?

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alluvion wrote:
alluvion wrote:

Is the classification/specification map set in stone then?

As far as I know, not by a long shot.

The only combos that I am certain that won't be in are the doubles, melee/melee ranged/ranged defense/defense and so on.

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Get through your early levels

Get through your early levels with some damage, then when you are at a point where you wanna go all debuff, respec.

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blacke4dawn wrote: alluvion
blacke4dawn wrote:

alluvion wrote: Is the classification/specification map set in stone then?As far as I know, not by a long shot.The only combos that I am certain that won't be in are the doubles, melee/melee ranged/ranged defense/defense and so on.

What makes you say that? I mean if it is on the chart and they don't do that then that would make it incomplete.

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The devs have said double

The devs have said double combos and combat gimp sets are unlikely to ever happen. They are only on the chart because they have not specifically said never. I would not get my hopes up.

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Zekna wrote: What makes you
Zekna wrote:

What makes you say that? I mean if it is on the chart and they don't do that then that would make it incomplete.

Outside of what the devs have said them self, that is no doubles (way too high specialization) and that they aren't aiming to completely fill it, the impossibility of making such a chart without having "doubles". If the game really survives that long then maybe we'll get everything except the "doubles"

If you can design a chart of that type without having "doubles" then by all means show us. Remember, the designation of primary and secondary does matter.

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Defense primary - 1-10 most

Defense primary - 1-10 most of them are toggles or buffs to increase defenses with a few offense

Defense secondary - 1-10 offensive strikes that when you do critical damage you gain a defense buff for X amount of time. (or something along the lines of that)

That is one just one example of what could happen. Make the primary defenses soft capped at around 75-85 % and the secondary defenses boost that to hard cap of 90%. Also make it to where some strikes from the mobs or enemies reduce defenses of your character and that is where the support comes in. Of course not ALL the enemies will have the reducing the defenses some will have reduce offense (offense/offense combo) some will do reduce control (control/control combo) so on and so on. I mean there are ways of doing it and if you get enough players and supports going you can get hard capped at 90% even though your number is at 130%. When your numbers are 130% and the mob reduces your defense by 40% you'll still be hard capped. It is ultimately up to the devs on how it will happen but I am simply saying there is a way to do it. Some enemies will be super easy to defeat where as some will be difficult because of this decision on rather you take those combos or not.

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That secondary structuring

That secondary structuring would not be what I would call a defensive/support/control power set, they would be melee/ranged ones with a defensive/support/control secondary effects. The way you have presented them doesn't make them sound like defensive, support or control power sets but rather like offensive sets with a defensive, support or control secondary effect (or flavor) to them. Considering that all powers will have some flavoring to them then that can act in the same way as your proposed changes without the need to introduce doubles.

Also consider that if they add such effects they would have to take away from something else, most likely damage. I just don't think it would be worth the resources spent on them.

The difference between taking 2 support/support and 2 damage/damage combo and a combo of 4 damage/support and support/damage would be essentially none. Making it so that "mixed" AT's would have an inherent disadvantage compared to doubles would most likely be a major mistake. As long as you bring enough damage, defense, support and control sets collectively over the entire team then it shouldn't matter if they come from double AT's or mixed AT's.

I just don't see the big benefit that doubles would bring that "justifies" the resources it would necessitate.

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Time to Update this Chart,

Time to Update this Chart, Methinks!

I was looking at the Archetype page, and I realized two things:

1)We've come a LONG way! -
This game is really starting to take form! Powers explanations are happening, Launch powers are confidently being displayed, talk of (at the very least) closed Alpha in the air....its a Great time to be a Hero again!

2)Man, this can be confusing for new people! -
Just looking at the Archetype page seems to state that all 3 Secondary Routes per Archetype will be available. I know that we'll only get 1 at launch, and that the others are coming in the following Months.......but I only know that cus ive
been navigating this site, trolling for info. A new member is going to look at that Archetype page and believe that every route listed will be available.

Easy enough to fix though, IMO (your mileage may vary!)
Take the information listed here (or the updated version), and add it to the Archetype page. Maybe, Highlight or Asterick the available secondaries, and have a small Legend at the bottom that denotes what the Highlighted/Astericked material means.
I think that'd go a long way to get people cleared up before they become confused.

On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
Stands a Figure....of Gray......

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Grayfigure wrote:
Grayfigure wrote:

Highlight or Asterick the available secondaries, and have a small Legend at the bottom

Well ... I suppose that's one way to make our possible supers become legends ... before their time ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Grayfigure wrote:

Highlight or Asterick the available secondaries, and have a small Legend at the bottom

Well ... I suppose that's one way to make our possible supers become legends ...
( •_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
before their time ...
(⌐■_■)

Fixed that for you. ^_^
YYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

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Guys, we have a problem with

Guys, we have a problem with the OP's chart...

...Is there a less annoyingly exclusive image hosting site we could use for future posts? -_-"

<==========)===O|TtDd|O===(==========>
My original character profiles!

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imgur.com

imgur.com


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Well that is embarrassing....

Well that is embarrassing.... *goes to make a replacement*

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Where is Zombie Man? oO

Where is Zombie Man? oO

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He went out for Brains and

He went out for Brains and hasn't been seen, since? Last Seen over 3 years ago...

Zombie Man was Community liaison back in the beginning.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Zombieman isn't with us

Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.


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- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
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Did Zombie Man eat himself to

Did Zombie Man eat himself to death?! After all the brains he had to try his own?!

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.

Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.
Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(

Oh, he's alive and all, just not working with us anymore.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

desviper wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.
Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(
Oh, he's alive and all, just not working with us anymore.

Oh thank hypnobeard!

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

desviper wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.
Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(
Oh, he's alive and all, just not working with us anymore.

On a related note, FUCK EUPHEMISMS!

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Language, please - these are

Language, please - these are forums where parents and kids who don't care to read stuff like that are likely to be present

(insert pithy comment here)

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Zombieman isn't with us anymore.

Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(

I guess you could say he's moved on.

No wait, that still sounds bad. Um ...


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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

Language, please - these are forums where parents and kids who don't care to read stuff like that are likely to be present

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwIOIEunIJI

...

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

desviper wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.
Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(
Oh, he's alive and all, just not working with us anymore.

Somewhere there is a warlock that can raise the dead.

*gearing up montage goes here*

Time to rob a warlock.

(at)Roxanna - Little Sister - Plutonium Bloom - MilkShakes
Triumph
Guardian
Virtue

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
desviper wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Zombieman isn't with us anymore. We are working on an updated chart for you all.
Is that literal or does it mean what i think it means? :(
Oh, he's alive and all, just not working with us anymore.
Somewhere there is a warlock that can raise the dead.
*gearing up montage goes here*
Time to rob a warlock.

....... >.> <.<.......

On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
Stands a Figure....of Gray......

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There, had a few minutes this

There, had a few minutes this morning so put the updated chart up.

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Stellar, Doctor! Thank you.

Stellar, Doctor! Thank you.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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And just so we're clear and

And just so we're clear and caught up, Classification is now Archetype, light blue in brackets is CoX equivalent, blank is not planned at this time, and dashed line is not planned on ever being planned on? Or did I get those last two mixed up?

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im going to be the new

im going to be the new community liaison.

just watch.

Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There, had a few minutes this morning so put the updated chart up.

Uhh...where is it? :p

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
There, had a few minutes this morning so put the updated chart up.
Uhh...where is it? :p

First post on first page of this thread.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

And just so we're clear and caught up, Classification is now Archetype, light blue in brackets is CoX equivalent, blank is not planned at this time, and dashed line is not planned on ever being planned on? Or did I get those last two mixed up?

No, you have it. Dashed is the case of double-stacked abilities, which is game breaking. (especially if you add a tertiary, and triple stack them).

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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I think there is a mistake on

I think there is a mistake on the Operator line, the cells display "commander" :)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

I think there is a mistake on the Operator line, the cells display "commander" :)

and in the Commander line, the cells display "Master"


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Doh! I will fix that in a bit

Doh! I will fix that in a bit.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

desviper wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
There, had a few minutes this morning so put the updated chart up.
Uhh...where is it? :p
First post on first page of this thread.

Didn't think he'd update another's post :p

Yee

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

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Fixed. Again

Fixed.

Again

Technical Director

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Foradain wrote:
And just so we're clear and caught up, Classification is now Archetype, light blue in brackets is CoX equivalent, blank is not planned at this time, and dashed line is not planned on ever being planned on? Or did I get those last two mixed up?
No, you have it. Dashed is the case of double-stacked abilities, which is game breaking. (especially if you add a tertiary, and triple stack them).

As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.

*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!

(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.

*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!

(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)

Something like that might be workable as long as you do in fact use a tertiary with some useful offensive powers.

The problem is that A) you'd have to knowledgeable enough of the system to know that you'd need offensive tertiary powers to make it work - not every player would automatically realize that and thus permanently gimp themselves and B) how are you going to survive -until- you get your offensive tertiary powers? This kind of character would basically need to be power leveled up to the level cap in order to be viable.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.
*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!
(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)

Something like that might be workable as long as you do in fact use a tertiary with some useful offensive powers.
The problem is that A) you'd have to knowledgeable enough of the system to know that you'd need offensive tertiary powers to make it work - not every player would automatically realize that and thus permanently gimp themselves and B) how are you going to survive -until- you get your offensive tertiary powers? This kind of character would basically need to be power leveled up to the level cap in order to be viable.

I think that getting some offensive powers would not be an issue. Consider the 2 extra PvE build we will get for free. If a player wanted to make a defense/support, or even a defense/defense so they could be an uber-tank for group content, they wouldn't need to worry about offensive powers, since their primary solo build would have a more traditional secondary specialization. Likewise if someone wanted to make a Range Offense/Melee offense set for maximizing DPS in group content. These one-sided builds would break the content, probably. Which is why I'm curious to see how the Director is going to play out. It is Control/Support, and so could be a bit light on offensive power. But then, anyone who played Controller in CoH already knows this.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I think that getting some offensive powers would not be an issue. Consider the 2 extra PvE build we will get for free. If a player wanted to make a defense/support, or even a defense/defense so they could be an uber-tank for group content, they wouldn't need to worry about offensive powers, since their primary solo build would have a more traditional secondary specialization. Likewise if someone wanted to make a Range Offense/Melee offense set for maximizing DPS in group content. These one-sided builds would break the content, probably.

Yeah to be honest I totally didn't consider the way build switching will work in CoT as a means to "trick" your way towards leveling up an otherwise "unlevelable" combo. Still that opens up all sorts of new avenues for "overpoweredness" that'll have to be tested in the fullness of time.

Huckleberry wrote:

Which is why I'm curious to see how the Director is going to play out. It is Control/Support, and so could be a bit light on offensive power. But then, anyone who played Controller in CoH already knows this.

Especially anyone who played a non-Fire Controller in say the first year or two of CoH. By the end of CoH they had provided many direct and indirect improvements which made soloing a Controller much less tedious. But yeah I think the "initial version" (circa 2004) of Controllers in CoH was just about as low as you'd want to get on the DPS scale and still remain viable. Any other build combination that provides less offensive power than that probably ought to be reconsidered by novice players and only handled by experienced players willing to handle the "weirdness" of that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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yeah I think the "initial

yeah I think the "initial version" (circa 2004) of Controllers in CoH was just about as low as you'd want to get on the DPS scale and still remain viable.

I remember how difficult the leveling of my gravity /rad controller was at the beginning of CoH 😥

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Foradain wrote:
And just so we're clear and caught up, Classification is now Archetype, light blue in brackets is CoX equivalent, blank is not planned at this time, and dashed line is not planned on ever being planned on? Or did I get those last two mixed up?
No, you have it. Dashed is the case of double-stacked abilities, which is game breaking. (especially if you add a tertiary, and triple stack them).
As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.
*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!
(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)

*points to Manipulation*

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

*points to Manipulation*

Which we know almost Nothing about, so far. *smile*

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Any other build combination that provides less offensive power than that probably ought to be reconsidered by novice players and only handled by experienced players willing to handle the "weirdness" of that.

Lothic,
You just reminded me of something I've seen in other games. A difficulty scale. So every class (and dare I say, every power set? I'm looking at you, Atrophic Aura protection set) would get a star rating on a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 requiring the most skill and 1 being the easiest for new players to try out. So that when you combine your primary with your secondary you get an overall difficulty rating.

The good part is that it is all subjective, so it doesn't have to be scientifically accurate. It just has to show the general feel of how difficult it is, basically where the bell curve sits after all the beta testing feedback is in.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

OathboundOne wrote:
As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.
*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!
(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)
Something like that might be workable as long as you do in fact use a tertiary with some useful offensive powers.
The problem is that A) you'd have to knowledgeable enough of the system to know that you'd need offensive tertiary powers to make it work - not every player would automatically realize that and thus permanently gimp themselves and B) how are you going to survive -until- you get your offensive tertiary powers? This kind of character would basically need to be power leveled up to the level cap in order to be viable.

It wouldn't be workable at all and the reason why is simple...

Player to Dev: My class sucks, it needs buffs, it can't handle it's own in arena!

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Any other build combination that provides less offensive power than that probably ought to be reconsidered by novice players and only handled by experienced players willing to handle the "weirdness" of that.
Lothic,
You just reminded me of something I've seen in other games. A difficulty scale. So every class (and dare I say, every power set? I'm looking at you, Atrophic Aura protection set) would get a star rating on a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 requiring the most skill and 1 being the easiest for new players to try out. So that when you combine your primary with your secondary you get an overall difficulty rating.
The good part is that it is all subjective, so it doesn't have to be scientifically accurate. It just has to show the general feel of how difficult it is, basically where the bell curve sits after all the beta testing feedback is in.

Trust me, I’ve been thinking about the use of a difficulty scale.

They can be completely misleading for a gamemlike this.
The eae of use vs complexity of use is something called a skill floor and skill ceiling.
It says, “this is easy and not hard to master”, the other says “hard to master”.

The problem lies in that the expectation is that the high skill ceiling or hard to master sets must therefore come with a skill-based pay off - typically better performance.

One reason I don’t like this is that our power sets can have a range of different metrics for performance. What if orn set was easy to use, performed very well offensively, but also ended up providing a notceable statistical improvement in sustain?

People would inevitably end up arguing that the “low rating set” shouldn’t perform that well because it is “easy to use”.

I’ve seen this argument countless times. It also can lead to players being picky of who they play with - a player picks some higher difficulty sets - it is obvious through play that they haven’t “mastered the skill set”’required to get the most out of the set - oher players end up resorting to put downs becauee the person shouldn’t have chosen those sets if they can’t play them a well enough. Again, I’ve seen plenty of this as well.

These toxic behaviors have become more prevalent in gaming culture over the past few years. Anything we can do to reduce such behaviors benefits the our player culture.

It also can mislead players’ expectations, by trying to combine a higher difficulty primary with a lower difficulty secondary may not result is a “medium difficulty” character.

Then there are the complexities of including Mastery powers and tertiary sets to the character, which again, can present a range of skill floor and ceilings.

I also like when there are no difficulty settings, players have to learn and explore for themselves what they perdonally find fun to play, what they find easy or harder to use with all the possible combinations.

Skill difficulties can also change over time. If more sets are released, the comparative difficulty ofnearlier sets may not be the appropriate rating any longer. If nerfs or buffs to sets occur (or an entire power changes!) the set’s diffxulty can be effected. When these do happen, very rarely does a dev team evaluate all the difficulty settings and update them.

Skill floors and ceilings I’ve keenly aware of in design. Mainly, my intent has been to make every set easy to use, but some may have more depth of play than orhers.

Probably some of the best examples I can point to from the old game could be Regeneration or Dual Blades. Both were relatively easy, but both had optimized builds where a skilled player making appropriate use of timing could maximize the effectiveness greatly compared to the base-line ease.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Trust me, I’ve been thinking about the use of a difficulty scale.
They can be completely misleading for a gamemlike this.
The eae of use vs complexity of use is something called a skill floor and skill ceiling.
It says, “this is easy and not hard to master”, the other says “hard to master”.
The problem lies in that the expectation is that the high skill ceiling or hard to master sets must therefore come with a skill-based pay off - typically better performance.
One reason I don’t like this is that our power sets can have a range of different metrics for performance. What if orn set was easy to use, performed very well offensively, but also ended up providing a notceable statistical improvement in sustain?
People would inevitably end up arguing that the “low rating set” shouldn’t perform that well because it is “easy to use”.
I’ve seen this argument countless times. It also can lead to players being picky of who they play with - a player picks some higher difficulty sets - it is obvious through play that they haven’t “mastered the skill set”’required to get the most out of the set - oher players end up resorting to put downs becauee the person shouldn’t have chosen those sets if they can’t play them a well enough. Again, I’ve seen plenty of this as well.
These toxic behaviors have become more prevalent in gaming culture over the past few years. Anything we can do to reduce such behaviors benefits the our player culture.
It also can mislead players’ expectations, by trying to combine a higher difficulty primary with a lower difficulty secondary may not result is a “medium difficulty” character.
Then there are the complexities of including Mastery powers and tertiary sets to the character, which again, can present a range of skill floor and ceilings.
I also like when there are no difficulty settings, players have to learn and explore for themselves what they perdonally find fun to play, what they find easy or harder to use with all the possible combinations.
Skill difficulties can also change over time. If more sets are released, the comparative difficulty ofnearlier sets may not be the appropriate rating any longer. If nerfs or buffs to sets occur (or an entire power changes!) the set’s diffxulty can be effected. When these do happen, very rarely does a dev team evaluate all the difficulty settings and update them.
Skill floors and ceilings I’ve keenly aware of in design. Mainly, my intent has been to make every set easy to use, but some may have more depth of play than orhers.
Probably some of the best examples I can point to from the old game could be Regeneration or Dual Blades. Both were relatively easy, but both had optimized builds where a skilled player making appropriate use of timing could maximize the effectiveness greatly compared to the base-line ease.

In all my experience playing MMO, I've never associated any correlation between difficulty and performance. The best example I can think of is the Warrior class in Tera online. I played a warrior tank before they gave it a block ability, and it was without a doubt the most difficult class to play. It was rated 5 stars and no one, and I mean no one, ever thought that difficulty rating translated into an improved performance. In fact, if there is any correlation to be made it is that players expect decreased performance from more difficult classes because of the learning curve required.

I've played several other games with difficulty ratings since, and in none of them did I ever see a correlation between difficulty and performance, either. So if you have seen this expectation, you are not playing the same MMO I am. Or are you speaking of MOBA or Arena games?

Like you, I think a class difficulty should be a rating of the technical complexity of the power sets, not how easy the content is when playing with that set. So let's make sure everyone else reading this is on board with that. This way we warn inexperienced players that if they are having problems with the set they picked, that they might want to pick an easier set to master. As we have already discussed in other threads, not every player is going to check the forums and the inexperienced players would be least likely of all. So expecting new players to self-identify to the rest of the playerbase with a query about an easier powerset to master is not a copacetic fall-back stance. No, I think the more difficult sets should be identified and the least difficult should be identified. And there should be an expressed understanding that difficulty is a not a correlation to the character's power in game, but is rather a technical assessment of the playstyle of the power set.

In CoX Controllers and Defenders, would have been on the more difficult side, because of the constant attention to enemies, their position and their status indicators. While Scrappers Butes and Tanks would be on the easier end, because you could just jump into a pile of enemies and spam buttons (I exaggerate, but not by much). Blasters and Corruptors would be in the middle, probably, along with Masterminds.

In my opinion, if it ends up that some powersets require more player skill than others, we really should make that known at power-set selection. If not, then this is a moot point.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Regeneration or Dual Blades /sic

I found this to be true... eventually. I gave Dual Blades three entirely separate attempts before I really stuck with it and it was originally on what I considered a throw-away character, not one of my various iterations of my namesake. After some initial growing pains in the early levels, and without much IOing involved, in the end I could crank out enough DPS to solo a pylon in decent time. I had already started to enjoy it before I took the time to do that, and it really came down to a fairly simple attack rotation that even missing the Power-Up combo didn't terribly hurt it's DPS output. I even considered going Dual Blades a second time on a Stalker, but I ended up going Claws instead for concept.
Regen was pretty much idiot-proof, even after they nerfed IH from being a toggle.

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Honestly, I'd rather not have

Honestly, I'd rather not have a rating of the 'complexity' of an AT. In my experience, it just sets up expectations. One could easily play a Controller by 'just spamming buttons'. Granted, it helps to have an idea of how the powers mesh, but it's not critical.

Every Powerset played differently than others. Fiery Aura played differently than Super Reflexes, which played differently than Regeneration or Invulnerability. The difficulty of the AT or Powersets always depended on the Player.

So I don't think there's a way to establish an objective rating for these things.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

In all my experience playing MMO, I've never associated any correlation between difficulty and performance. The best example I can think of is the Warrior class in Tera online. I played a warrior tank before they gave it a block ability, and it was without a doubt the most difficult class to play. It was rated 5 stars and no one, and I mean no one, ever thought that difficulty rating translated into an improved performance. In fact, if there is any correlation to be made it is that players expect decreased performance from more difficult classes because of the learning curve required.

I've played several other games with difficulty ratings since, and in none of them did I ever see a correlation between difficulty and performance, either.

I also played a Warrior in TERA (to about the mid-30s) and found it to be something of an extreme challenge to play effectively/successfully. That's because the class was built around the notion of NO GET HITSU!! being its protection scheme ... except that in this case it wasn't about turning on some toggles and falling asleep. No, Warriors in TERA needed to ACTIVELY Dodge attacks and be thinking ahead to their next move the entire time. It was all about being anywhere BUT where the enemy was attacking, making them Miss you by being mobile and having sharp reflexes (so lag and ping time was a serious factor in the active combat).

Currently I'm playing vanilla World of Warcraft (reliving the glory days from over a decade ago) and there are multiple classes in that game that fall under the rubric of Easy To Learn But Hard To Master. The one that everyone thinks of right off the bat are the Hunters (popularly known as Huntards) which are almost brain dead simple to play (including "playing" while AFK in some cases), but which can be extremely complex to "master" in their entirety. A poorly played Hunter will annoy everyone EXCEPT the person playing them, but they'll tend to survive most mistakes that would kill other classes. By contrast, a well played Hunter can be downright inspiring to see in action.

Compare that to the Druid class, which is a shapeshifter hybrid class, and both the complexity and "mastery costs" climb towards the stratosphere. Druids are SO complex in the possibilities of what they can potentially(!) do that the permutations are almost mind boggling. EACH of the different forms call for use of different skills and a different mindset in how to play effectively ... and the class basically has 5 different forms to choose from ... of which you can realistically only specialize in 1 or 2 of, so it's really something of a challenge to "learn" the entirety of the class.

And then you have City of Heroes and the laughably inaccurate "star ratings" for the different Archetypes, which put Kheldians (both Peacebringers and Warshades) as being absolutely dead on AVERAGE at everything ... when in fact they were very nearly almost as complicated as Masterminds to play. Both Kheldians and Masterminds for all intents and purposes REQUIRED use of /bindloadfile keybinds in order to be able to control them with any semblance of effectiveness. In my case, since I played Tri-Former Kheldians, both Peacebringer and Warshade, I needed like 4 different /bindloadfile macro files for my Kheldians and almost 3x that number of files for my Mastermind in order to be able to "direct traffic" properly.


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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Honestly, I'd rather not have a rating of the 'complexity' of an AT. In my experience, it just sets up expectations. One could easily play a Controller by 'just spamming buttons'. Granted, it helps to have an idea of how the powers mesh, but it's not critical.
Every Powerset played differently than others. Fiery Aura played differently than Super Reflexes, which played differently than Regeneration or Invulnerability. The difficulty of the AT or Powersets always depended on the Player.
So I don't think there's a way to establish an objective rating for these things.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I'm of the same mind - what some may find complex, others may find easy. I think judging "complexity" for a class (or even individual powerset) is a bit too subjective to be of any use. Especially with the diversity of options we will have even within individual ATs. Just provide an overall description of the intent behind the AT/Powerset, and let the players figure it out and experience/discover it for themselves.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
*points to Manipulation*
Which we know almost Nothing about, so far. *smile*

Alas.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
As well as Defense/Support and Support/Defense.
*Dramatic sigh* Alas! My dreams of creating the ultimate pacifist hero have been crushed! Oh woe is me!
(Only half-way kidding, I realize the problems inherent in a combination that lacks any and all offensive powers, but I would still roll the hell out of one and just tertiary attack powers if I were soloing it.)
Something like that might be workable as long as you do in fact use a tertiary with some useful offensive powers.
The problem is that A) you'd have to knowledgeable enough of the system to know that you'd need offensive tertiary powers to make it work - not every player would automatically realize that and thus permanently gimp themselves and B) how are you going to survive -until- you get your offensive tertiary powers? This kind of character would basically need to be power leveled up to the level cap in order to be viable.
I think that getting some offensive powers would not be an issue. Consider the 2 extra PvE build we will get for free. If a player wanted to make a defense/support, or even a defense/defense so they could be an uber-tank for group content, they wouldn't need to worry about offensive powers, since their primary solo build would have a more traditional secondary specialization. Likewise if someone wanted to make a Range Offense/Melee offense set for maximizing DPS in group content. These one-sided builds would break the content, probably. Which is why I'm curious to see how the Director is going to play out. It is Control/Support, and so could be a bit light on offensive power. But then, anyone who played Controller in CoH already knows this.

To be honest, build switching had completely slipped my mind when I made that post (hence why I mentioned tertiary attacks for solo, which you wouldn't even need, since you could just swap to your solo spec). It had actually even slipped my mind that Defense/Support or Support/Defense wouldn't be its own archetype, but rather specializations under Guardian and/or Stalwart. Woops.

I would blame it on still being awake at nearly 6am, but I'm always awake at that time anyhow, so that would be a lie. :p

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
*points to Manipulation*
Which we know almost Nothing about, so far. *smile*
Alas.

I assume it's something to do with mez and melee :p

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So i've never really liked

So i've never really liked star systems, they always end up being wrong or come with odd interpretations of difficulty. The best example of this is titanfall 2 and the fact they gave the moderately quick only titan with a tracking weapon a 3 star hardness with the core that could instantly kill any titan. Whereas the very slow tank frame was a grade 1 star which at least as that was the main frame I played when you were fighting experienced players required you to always be one step ahead being the slowest thing on the field, if you weren't thinking ahead you died.

For the best part I would rather we have descriptions on how they are "intended" to be played so people can judge it that way that doesn't stop them using Tertiary and Mastery to change that up however.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
*points to Manipulation*
Which we know almost Nothing about, so far. *smile*
Alas.
I assume it's something to do with mez and melee :p

IIRC...

There was something about there being two types of Manipulation sets. A defense/control type hybrid (being a pseudo-Stalker type set) and the offense/control/support/utilities mashup approximating what Blasters had.

Now, again, if I am recalling correctly, I had assumed that these were going to be completely separate entities from one another (having 5 unique versions specific to the archetype found on*), but given Doc's hint this would mean that either Vindicator (support/manipulation) was getting a support primary and the Stalker defense/control version of Manipulation rather than the Blastery version I had figured on... OR that my assumption is flawed and that the two versions of Manipulation (Blastery and Stalkery) don't exist as wholesale different types, but are instead the endpoints on a spectrum where each individual Manipulation powerset would range somewhere in the middle. just WHAT a Manipulation set DID would depend entirety on WHICH Manipulation set you picked...

*Edit: That is to say, Two groups of Manipulation sets- five unique offense oriented in one group, and five unique defense oriented in the other- and your archetype dictated which group you got access to.

Damnit I need to proofread better, I've edited like half a dozen times to fix mixed up set names and friggin autocorrects. Sigh

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Interdictor]I'm of the same
Interdictor wrote:

I'm of the same mind - what some may find complex, others may find easy. I think judging "complexity" for a class (or even individual powerset) is a bit too subjective to be of any use. Especially with the diversity of options we will have even within individual ATs. Just provide an overall description of the intent behind the AT/Powerset, and let the players figure it out and experience/discover it for themselves.

Deathwatch101 wrote:

So i've never really liked star systems, they always end up being wrong or come with odd interpretations of difficulty.
...
For the best part I would rather we have descriptions on how they are "intended" to be played so people can judge it that way that doesn't stop them using Tertiary and Mastery to change that up however.

Yeah when this whole "novice build vs experienced build" discussion first came up I wasn't really envisioning a super-detailed ratings system full of strictly specific stars or numbers that would be used to compare one combo to another. As others have pointed out there's a wide range of subjectivity when it comes to what individual players consider easy or hard to play.

My main point was that "experienced players" will likely be far more tolerant of non-standard build combinations that require serious effort and patience to play as opposed to being able to basically just mindlessly mash buttons. A novice/causal player may simply be put-off by a build combination that's so far outside of the mainstream that they may decide to give up on the game entirely thinking that every build is simply too "annoying" to play.

While I'm not sure a strict "build ratings" system (with stars/numbers) is necessary it might be useful if the Devs provided a very generic set of descriptive phrases they could use with each build combination. Such phrases could be limited to things like "considered good for causal play" versus "intended for experienced players" while avoiding specifically defining things like "We the Devs think this is easy/hard". They could also stress things like "build X is good for general team or solo play" versus "build X is mainly intended for supportive team play". Phrases like this would provide useful info without necessarily dictating "you must play X exactly like this" or attempting to rate certain builds as being easier/harder than other builds.

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