When the sets were being created, you'd get a set that was mostly melee, with a snipe and a build up. You'd get a ranged set that had a pbaoe and a melee.
Empathy surely was created along the same lines as other sets?
-away from main PC so can't do proper checking.

Maybe the enemies of Cot should define what "heal all" classes capabilities are. Enemies with abilities that effect you after combat could make healers very unique classes all on there own. I would prefer a healer playstyle/system that doesn't make me "fall asleep at the wheel" because I click a few buttons an your all better. How about a classes that can specialize by study at a Cot university. They can't master all forms of recovery but can focus on the different types of effects that are out there to combat against those effects. Ie: lazerblitz has been infected with a poison. Healer uses there "sample ability" to extract sample of poison from lazerblitz lowering the timeframe of said effect, effecting lazerblitz. Then using the "analysis ability" to finding an antidote to that level of poison. ( receiving some kind of codex to read for flavor)Removing that effect completely. The more you enhance your lvl of experience in each category of study. The better your results can become.

Lvl 1 lowers the timeframe of posion effect. Recovers from 1/3 of posion effect damage to x stat. Heal x amount.

Lvl 2 lowers poison time by 50%, recovers 1/2 of said damage to stat. Heals x amount.

By mastery lvl you could apply buffs that negate that lvl of poison. Mutant type healers could use there touch to combat whats in your system. By doing so they take on some of the said effect. Plus build a resistance to said effect each time they face that effect building xp vs type. They can learn all the different types but the more they know the less effective they are in each so it gives room too specialize. It opens doors to great rp, eliminates the "nerf bat", adds a cool codex to read based on what types of effects you study for, healers could even trade/sale there findings among other healers giving non hearlers temp powers. The possiblities are endless when we try to break the mold. Not saying my way is the right way but it damn sure makes them more interesting than a simple click. "I have been studying this form of poison for a while now. So you should be fine once the antibodies kick in."

Just my thoughts

vidicate wrote:

(Wow. I love how edits stick for a few hours and then revert.)
For the above, if it's not obvious, 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive while 3 is universal.
I also noticed an amusing typo. *snicker* Would you believe me if I blamed Siri?

Shoot 'Em Up!

If we inform the players going into the game that simply rocking the aura will be a very inefficient way to buff the team then maybe they won't do it.

Many players are stubborn enough to not read hints and suggestions but most players are not stupid. If we give them a viable alternative to a healing aura and a ST heal then I bet they'll use it.

Brand X wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
If we inform the players going into the game that simply rocking the aura will be a very inefficient way to buff the team then maybe they won't do it.
Many players are stubborn enough to not read hints and suggestions but most players are not stupid. If we give them a viable alternative to a healing aura and a ST heal then I bet they'll use it.

I don't know. On my Rad Defender, I had a few times someone tell me to do nothing but rock the aura as they thought doing anything else was a waste of my end. :p
I ran into more than a few Empaths who thought just rocking the aura was enough and consider themselves the most beneficial member of the team.
I remember seeing more than one Troller who's only primary power was their first power in their control primary.
I recall a few radiation defenders who thought rocking the aura and medicine pool made them the ultimate healers and didn't want to waste end use on their toggle debuffs. :p
This was stuff that was still happening when Freedom hit and players should've known better by then.

The age of the game doesn't tell us how long (or how often) each of those examples were playing the game, of course, but whatever.

What is the problem with any of that? When I ran into someone who was like that, and who seemed interested in hearing about other approaches, I offered info (in what I hoped was the least threatening way possible). I was one of those players, myself (One of my first characters was an invuln tank and I skipped Unyielding based on the description. Someone saw me getting mezzed when I was around 20-21, noticed I had skipped it, and kindly explained why that was a bad idea). For the folks who were not open to a suggestion, I added an entertaining-to-me note about stuff they were saying and set them to one star. And then went on enjoying the game.

Or are we saying the power choices are what caused the intractable players to behave that way, when so many, many, many other players didn't end up like that when faced with exactly the same power choices? My experience out of the game suggests that there might be some additional factors involved.

Gangrel wrote:

Rheckawrecka wrote:
I think a good solution to healing in this game would be to have heals have a very high taunt attached to them. If a player wants to "rock the aura" they can expect to have a TON of aggro comin their way.
Personally I would have buffs and debuffs, in the same category as well. Maybe scale according to the "amount of buffage/debuffage/Healing applied".
Hell, some MMO's have it set up so that those that *overheal* (ie Rocking the aura) get substantially more aggro compared to just healing as and when needed.
How would this affect buffers/debuffers? Constantly reapplying a buff/debuff when it isn't needed (for the target based) or by buffing/debuffing a *substantial* number of targets all at the same time could draw aggro on the caster.

I like the thing to discourage 'overbuffing'...cuts down on PLing and such as well.

Debuffs drawing aggro I'm fine with. It did before, it should now imho.
Penalties for stacking de/buffs. No thanks. The rewards for that kind of stacking should be a natural benefit of the effort to come up with the team composition, building the strategies to apply them, and working around the difficulties imposed by having a stacking team versus a more balanced composition.
And before someone trots out tales of content being trivializes by "overbuffed" teams, I am/was a core SG leader for RO.
I built those kind of teams. Once built they were awe inspiring. The problem is no one saw the weeks of design and practice to work out the builds and techniques, and the hours it took cat wrangling to get the teams together and rolling.

-joe

Debuffing mobs will aggro them to you as you are attacking them.
Drectly buffing another player is passive, surely, as far as the mobs are concerned, they can't see it, don't know what's going on, it's not affecting them.
Maybe if it was a buff aura you could add a threat level to it but otherwise seems like it wouldn't achieve anything.

Why would self and team healing increase your threat rating?
This was such a pita in NW that clerics could empty a room full of mobs despite being on a team full of tanks.
Why would buffing a player draw aggro?

But say it did. The effect would so short in duration that would it really make any difference? I mean I have threat rating 1. I heal you. I go to threat rating 1.1 for 0.05 of a second. I then stop healing you and go back to threat rating 1. That's not worth the processing power to record.

Actually ... guys ... why don't we just get excessively clever about this?

/em blink blinks ginormous wet lashes melodramatically

[b]--> *IF* <--[/b] Healing generates Threat ... set things up such that Healing [i]which actually HEALS[/i] (as in, counters Damage that has already been taken) generates relatively little Threat ... but "overhealing" [i]which get wasted[/i] (as in, the amount that heals beyond the Target's Max HP) generates a "large" amount of Threat. Indeed, you could even potentially "scale" the Threat generated by Healing, such that healing a Target that has low HP generates less threat than healing a Target that has high HP ... meaning that that a Support Healer [i]doing their job [b]is not penalized[/b] for doing their job[/i]. So if you heal someone at 25% HP before the heal takes effect, then every point of Healing given up to 100% HP of the Target counts as being only 25% of the nominal Threat generated for healing. If the Target is at 50% HP before the heal takes effect, then the Threat generated is only 50% of nominal ... up to 100% HP. OVERhealing though is where the Threat generation "spikes" and so as a Supporting Healer you want to be mindful of the "Goldilocks Zone" where you aren't generating excess Threat through indiscriminate overhealing, which then creates an "incentive" to Heal [i]just enough but not too much[/i] lest you become an Aggro Magnet yourself.

Mind you, I'm not advocating FOR such a situation, necessarily ... but if Healing is going to generate Threat, this is the sort of structure I'd want to build around it so as to make it a case of "not too hot, not too cold" where as a Supporting Player you want to skillfully "thread the needle" without going overboard and just spamming your healing Powers indiscriminately [i]simply because there's no downside to spamming them[/i] (other than annoying other Players).

There is a great deal of theory crafting here for how healing (and to a lesser extent de/buff) could be tied to threat.
Pretty much all the ideas are tied to functions of heals, and de/buffs. But there is another side to the puzzle.
Very little discussion, if any, relates to threat itself.

We used to have powers to modify threat. Most folks seemed to be familiar with outright avoidance (invis etc) or full embrace (taunt).
Folks did not seem to understand somewhat more active but less common options such as Deceive or Placate.
What if we had those kind of options for a build. That way I could modify threat to myself by 1.choosing to use or hold back on the aggro generating power. 2. Having teamates handle aggro for me 3.using de/buffs to neutralize the threat posed by the aggro. 4.choosing and using -threat powers myself to offset the aggro caused by my other powers.

Or perhaps the game could be made in such a way that aggro might even be desirable. Low-0 aggro= self sacrificing "team player" buffs and secondary effects strengthened. High-Capped aggro=egocentric "all eyes on me" lowered end costs for all powers since you feed off the attention. Not suggesting that something like that actually be implemented, merely to demonstrate that there are other approaches possible.

-joe

No this thread is about (primarily) adjusting healing in a number of possible ways, including but not limited to attaching aggro to ally heals.
The one side of the coin is healing the other is aggro. One cannot discuss a coin by looking only at one face of it.

-joe

Rheckawrecka wrote:

Abnormal Joe wrote:
Very little discussion, if any, relates to threat itself.
Because this discussion isn't about threat....

Because this discussion [i]isn't about HOW Threat WORKS[/i]. Defining exactly how Threat functions, game mechanically, is a different subject. It is perfectly possible to compartmentalize discussion about how Buffs/Debuffs [i]generate Threat[/i] without needing to know what gets [i]done with that Threat[/i] once it has been generated.

NW has (I don't believe it was very useful, it may have got buffed) a threat-reducing power that you slot into a passive slot to deal with the amount of aggro a healer got.

I don't think it's a bad idea to attach the ability to modify to powers. So healing would have a modifier that raises your aggro level but wouldn't, effectively do anything. Make your initial threat level 1, make the multiplier 1. If everyone steam rolls the content on healers to the detriment of every other class, change that.

So debuffing - definitely aggros a mob. I have fond memories of rsf with 7 debuffers and a stone brute. In that situation the debuffers were not getting aggro because the tanks aggro level was so high, taunts were plentiful & range is its own defence.

All this "rocking the aura" - where's that coming from? One power, used how often (?) should not define mechanics.

Healing up between mobs would mean the healer now has a high threat rating and should not go into the next room first.
Which as they never did, as they stay at the back, hasn't really achieved anything.

So how much threat in the form of "%of a tank" should healing generate? How long should it last once cast? How does the player know what their threat rating is?
Tank : "Heal me pls"
Empathy Defender "No, I will die"
rest of team : "Derp"

http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Threat

The traditionally most fragile and weakest (in terms of attacks) ATs/power sets should now also have to do their job perfectly or they'll generate huge threat?

Sounds to me like this is a call to throw the conventional wisdom the winds and give the primary healing power sets to the tanks. Need aggro? Throw out a heal.[color=red]*[/color] Need healing? Throw out a heal![color=red]**[/color] Team needs healing? Throw out a heal![color=red]***[/color] Need more aggro? Stop gawking at the screen and start healing!

[color=red]*[/color] I've got tons of these kinds of revolutionary ideas.
[color=red]**[/color] Told ya.
[color=red]***[/color] I'm on a roll, baby!

Darth Fez wrote:

Sounds to me like this is a call to throw the conventional wisdom the winds and give the primary healing power sets to the tanks. Need aggro? Throw out a heal.* Need healing? Throw out a heal!** Team needs healing? Throw out a heal!*** Need more aggro? Stop gawking at the screen and start healing!
* I've got tons of these kinds of revolutionary ideas.** Told ya.*** I'm on a roll, baby!

STRAW MAN ... [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5og6G62ybw][b]HAVE AT THEE !!![/b][/url]

So, we wait until he starts monologuing, then punch him in the jubblies and proceed with the thwarting while he gibbers threats?

Be Well!
Fireheart

DISCLAIMER: I spent about two hours reading this thread, and I have to say I'm genuinely made very thoughtful, and I think for the most part the discussion has been progressive and innovative and civil, with only a couple of breakdowns and diversions. This feels like it's going to be a long post... I hope the Devs are continuing to read this, because I personally feel that it's a very important game mechanic to discuss.

I, too, am a roleplayer to a silly level sometimes, and when I got to around the bottom of page one of this discussion and people were calling for "No Healers! No Empaths at all!" I have to admit that my heart shriveled and died a little in a dark corner in my chest. I want to recreate my empath in a different world so badly it aches. I want to see what she'll be like, deposited into this new setting and growing up in a new city with new friends, etc... The though of not having an Empathy-like set of abilities made me, at first, shrink in horror.

Healing is something I've always loved to do in MMOs-- but it's not exactly "healing" itself that I've enjoyed, if I examine it past the surface of that thought, as someone had also mentioned early on in response to oOStaticOo's vehement protestations-- I imagine he had that cold stab of terror and anger like I did.

NOW... When I think beyond that initial reaction, what I dearly loved about my Empath was her ability to support the team in a meaningful way with ally buffs. Rocking the Aura was not something I did-- I was fully present in every fight, learning every group that I was with, if there was a tank, who liked to run ahead, who needed extra support... Actually keeping green bars filled up became a secondary function to the joy and satisfaction I got from pumping up the team, from the recognition I received from friends and PUGs for supporting everyone well. I always felt welcome in CoX for that reason.

This being said, if healing were "nerfed" as was the initial thought behind this thread, I can imagine that I would survive. That I could re-create Grace with SOME form of healing ability, but primarily with the powers to hold up whomever she was with. She was next to impossible to solo in CoX-- I picked Archery for some reason as my secondary?-- but I really enjoyed the challenge of it pretty much forcing me to team up with others and be social. It netted me a husband, in the end, but that's another thing altogether. What I'm saying is that I don't feel as threatened as I did at first by the idea of having healing be... be.... what? Less effective than it was in CoX? Less of a 'main power' than it was in CoX? I mean, from a roleplayer's perspective, as yet another person mentioned early on, I've not heard of dedicated healers in comics or superhero movies, really. I consider my superhero playstyle to have leaned towards more of a "Violet Impossible" sort of situation...

Anyway, back on track, sort of! I've enjoyed reading, too, about where people think healing might be altered if we don't just 'nerf' it in the way initially described. I don't feel that's wholly off topic, really, maybe only a smidgeon. The things I liked, since my "empathy" literally no longer exists in the way it did before:

*** The idea of having healing do percentages of actual health restoration, while never FULLY healing to a maximum-- only able to heal to 80% or something. My brain immediately, too, took that to another level-- perhaps, at lower levels/in the beginning, heals would only bring someone back to 70% of their maximum health cap through some algorithm I can't even begin to fathom, let alone describe, but that perhaps involves how damaged the ally is to begin with. I don't know, it makes sense in my head, and I felt pretty positive about where that train of thought was going-- being able to 'heal' more effectively over time.

*** The idea that over-healing draws greater 'threat' than simply healing what is necessary. I would be perfectly fine to live in a world like that, as it makes sense to me as a game mechanic, at the very least-- I agree with the thoughts that have been brought up that it would help reduce PLing and general idiocy. In similar line, since I obviously will be making a buff/support/control class of some variety, I liked the idea also of having over-buffing being given some kind of knock as well. I enjoy anything that forces me to focus, to read the little details, pay attention.

What I feel like was missed almost entirely in CoX at least was naming the class "Empathy" at all. To me, Empathy immediately brings to mind some kind of penalty for healing, like Absorb Pain (I think that's what it was called... sad that I'm already forgetting). To me, it literally meant "I FEEL your pain FOR you", which implied that I should be taking damage or being debuffed or /something/ for having given you life. I actually wished that my heals in CoX had a greater price for them, in life or in some other fashion, for the ability to give others life. After all, I always played it as an absorption of pain, not a "Poof! Your wounds are all better now!" I always felt a bit weird for wanting a penalty for playing my own power set >___> But no one had mentioned that, so I thought I'd bring it up, as my contribution to the "how CAN we nerf healing?" conversation line. And it made more sense to me from a roleplaying perspective, too-- it seemed more likely that that kind of powerset in a superhero would have as dramatic a downside as an upside-- it's own kryptonite.

Anyway, as I said before, I hope the Devs continues to read these even after they've gone on awhile. I love this kind of discussion, and think it could really help get the gears working for folk who are actually creating this beautiful thing FOR US. Thanks again MWM. Love and a shoutout from Australia.

My "Vehemency" comes from several reasons.

1.) Some would have "Healing" or "Empathy" COMPLETELY removed from the game because it a.) doesn't fit "THEIR" idea of how a superhero game should be. b.) doesn't fit the superhero genre, in which case I have proved wrongly that healing does exist in Marvel and DC. c.) feel that it's more of a "Sword and Sorcery MMO" power set. d.) have had some form of bad experience with an aura rocker that thinks by rocking the aura that they saved the team.

2.) Some would have the set be "Unlocked" as a reward, which I find insanely ridiculous. If I have to unlock something I want that something to be Unique and interesting, not mundane and boring.

3.) Some would have it as a Power Pool. I'm sorry, but we already had Medicine as a Power Pool in a different MMO and it wasn't all that great. Also, it makes it so that ANYBODY supposedly can be a healer and I strongly feel this would be a bad decision to suddenly see your Tank stop Taunting and start healing the team because everybody is close to dying and nobody on the team can heal besides him or her. We also do not know how many powers we will be able to choose, how many slots we'll be allowed to assign, and due to min/maxing may have to skip healing to ensure our character has all the weapons and abilities available to survive.

4.) "Healing" if done right can be a life saver and can be beneficial, especially in the early levels of the game. I've also seen first-hand what an 8 man team of Empaths can do. I was, and still am, a member of the Repeat Offenders before NCSoft shut down CoH.

5.) I don't know about you, but I started playing CoH back in Issue 3 and survived through the Global Defense Nerf, Enhancement Diversification, Regen Nerf, Burn Nerf, and countless other Nerfs all in the name of "BALANCE". Personally I'm sick and tired of having everything Nerfed all to h e double hockey sticks and would rather NOT Nerf anything anymore. Instead I'd rather try to find a way to Enhance something that is lackluster and bring it up instead of taking something else down just because a few people view it as unfair and not balanced.

So forgive me, but yes I whole heartedly stand for Empathy and Healing remaining as it was, or as close to it as we can possibly make it. I don't feel like we should rain on somebody else's parade just because a few people feel strongly negative towards something due to bad experiences in the past. To quote Different Strokes, "The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." I will agree that there have been some bad healers in the past and I've teamed with a few as well. However, educating someone on the proper techniques and usage is always better than just taking away their "toy". Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't love it.

THAT is what I'm trying to stand up for and defend. As much as someone else is vehemently trying to get rid of "Healing", I'm trying to vehemently stand up for the person who doesn't want "Healing" to go away or be severely nerfed to the point that it is no longer enjoyable to play. My first 50 was an Empathy/Electricity Defender, and believe me it was a pain to get to 50 on it. I mostly soloed on it, and got laughed at because I had picked the "Weakest" powers to play with. It will always hold a strong place in my heart because of that, and I will staunchly and strongly stand up for it's defense.

oOStaticOo wrote:

My "Vehemency" comes from several reasons.
1.) Some would have "Healing" or "Empathy" COMPLETELY removed from the game because it a.) doesn't fit "THEIR" idea of how a superhero game should be. b.) doesn't fit the superhero genre, in which case I have proved wrongly that healing does exist in Marvel and DC. c.) feel that it's more of a "Sword and Sorcery MMO" power set. d.) have had some form of bad experience with an aura rocker that thinks by rocking the aura that they saved the team.
2.) Some would have the set be "Unlocked" as a reward, which I find insanely ridiculous. If I have to unlock something I want that something to be Unique and interesting, not mundane and boring.
3.) Some would have it as a Power Pool. I'm sorry, but we already had Medicine as a Power Pool in a different MMO and it wasn't all that great. Also, it makes it so that ANYBODY supposedly can be a healer and I strongly feel this would be a bad decision to suddenly see your Tank stop Taunting and start healing the team because everybody is close to dying and nobody on the team can heal besides him or her. We also do not know how many powers we will be able to choose, how many slots we'll be allowed to assign, and due to min/maxing may have to skip healing to ensure our character has all the weapons and abilities available to survive.
4.) "Healing" if done right can be a life saver and can be beneficial, especially in the early levels of the game. I've also seen first-hand what an 8 man team of Empaths can do. I was, and still am, a member of the Repeat Offenders before NCSoft shut down CoH.
5.) I don't know about you, but I started playing CoH back in Issue 3 and survived through the Global Defense Nerf, Enhancement Diversification, Regen Nerf, Burn Nerf, and countless other Nerfs all in the name of "BALANCE". Personally I'm sick and tired of having everything Nerfed all to h e double hockey sticks and would rather NOT Nerf anything anymore. Instead I'd rather try to find a way to Enhance something that is lackluster and bring it up instead of taking something else down just because a few people view it as unfair and not balanced.
So forgive me, but yes I whole heartedly stand for Empathy and Healing remaining as it was, or as close to it as we can possibly make it. I don't feel like we should rain on somebody else's parade just because a few people feel strongly negative towards something due to bad experiences in the past. To quote Different Strokes, "The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." I will agree that there have been some bad healers in the past and I've teamed with a few as well. However, educating someone on the proper techniques and usage is always better than just taking away their "toy". Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't love it.
THAT is what I'm trying to stand up for and defend. As much as someone else is vehemently trying to get rid of "Healing", I'm trying to vehemently stand up for the person who doesn't want "Healing" to go away or be severely nerfed to the point that it is no longer enjoyable to play. My first 50 was an Empathy/Electricity Defender, and believe me it was a pain to get to 50 on it. I mostly soloed on it, and got laughed at because I had picked the "Weakest" powers to play with. It will always hold a strong place in my heart because of that, and I will staunchly and strongly stand up for it's defense.

Well, it was proven there wasn't some superhero healer standing in the background healing non-stop. Their healing would come afterwards and it was one of the most limited types of mitigation in the superhero genre.

Also, as a powerpool idea, you haven't said why that would all of a sudden make it weak or unenjoyable. It wasn't said "Let's make it like the medicine pool" So if made a powerpool, giving you a ST Heal and an AOE Heal, combine it with any buff set, and you just made Empathy.

So how exactly do you figure that would make healing less fun? Because the suggested power pool's AOE heal wouldn't heal themselves, but the team they love to keep standing?

And when did Empathy ever get the reputation as being weak in CoH? o.O It wasn't the solo set, but I don't recall people going "Empathy is so weak" just recall "Empathy is a slow to use solo set" that by no means, makes it weak.

Brand X wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
My "Vehemency" comes from several reasons.
1.) Some would have "Healing" or "Empathy" COMPLETELY removed from the game because it a.) doesn't fit "THEIR" idea of how a superhero game should be. b.) doesn't fit the superhero genre, in which case I have proved wrongly that healing does exist in Marvel and DC. c.) feel that it's more of a "Sword and Sorcery MMO" power set. d.) have had some form of bad experience with an aura rocker that thinks by rocking the aura that they saved the team.
2.) Some would have the set be "Unlocked" as a reward, which I find insanely ridiculous. If I have to unlock something I want that something to be Unique and interesting, not mundane and boring.
3.) Some would have it as a Power Pool. I'm sorry, but we already had Medicine as a Power Pool in a different MMO and it wasn't all that great. Also, it makes it so that ANYBODY supposedly can be a healer and I strongly feel this would be a bad decision to suddenly see your Tank stop Taunting and start healing the team because everybody is close to dying and nobody on the team can heal besides him or her. We also do not know how many powers we will be able to choose, how many slots we'll be allowed to assign, and due to min/maxing may have to skip healing to ensure our character has all the weapons and abilities available to survive.
4.) "Healing" if done right can be a life saver and can be beneficial, especially in the early levels of the game. I've also seen first-hand what an 8 man team of Empaths can do. I was, and still am, a member of the Repeat Offenders before NCSoft shut down CoH.
5.) I don't know about you, but I started playing CoH back in Issue 3 and survived through the Global Defense Nerf, Enhancement Diversification, Regen Nerf, Burn Nerf, and countless other Nerfs all in the name of "BALANCE". Personally I'm sick and tired of having everything Nerfed all to h e double hockey sticks and would rather NOT Nerf anything anymore. Instead I'd rather try to find a way to Enhance something that is lackluster and bring it up instead of taking something else down just because a few people view it as unfair and not balanced.
So forgive me, but yes I whole heartedly stand for Empathy and Healing remaining as it was, or as close to it as we can possibly make it. I don't feel like we should rain on somebody else's parade just because a few people feel strongly negative towards something due to bad experiences in the past. To quote Different Strokes, "The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, may not be right for some." I will agree that there have been some bad healers in the past and I've teamed with a few as well. However, educating someone on the proper techniques and usage is always better than just taking away their "toy". Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't love it.
THAT is what I'm trying to stand up for and defend. As much as someone else is vehemently trying to get rid of "Healing", I'm trying to vehemently stand up for the person who doesn't want "Healing" to go away or be severely nerfed to the point that it is no longer enjoyable to play. My first 50 was an Empathy/Electricity Defender, and believe me it was a pain to get to 50 on it. I mostly soloed on it, and got laughed at because I had picked the "Weakest" powers to play with. It will always hold a strong place in my heart because of that, and I will staunchly and strongly stand up for it's defense.

Well, it was proven there wasn't some superhero healer standing in the background healing non-stop. Their healing would come afterwards and it was one of the most limited types of mitigation in the superhero genre.
Also, as a powerpool idea, you haven't said why that would all of a sudden make it weak or unenjoyable. It wasn't said "Let's make it like the medicine pool" So if made a powerpool, giving you a ST Heal and an AOE Heal, combine it with any buff set, and you just made Empathy.
So how exactly do you figure that would make healing less fun? Because the suggested power pool's AOE heal wouldn't heal themselves, but the team they love to keep standing?
And when did Empathy ever get the reputation as being weak in CoH? o.O It wasn't the solo set, but I don't recall people going "Empathy is so weak" just recall "Empathy is a slow to use solo set" that by no means, makes it weak.

Actually I did give you reason as to why I think "Healing" as a Power Pools is a bad idea. Look up. Also nobody has come forth to say that Power Pools will be just as powerful as the Primary or Secondary powers will be, and I don't think they should be either. You can see what my desires are as far as Power Pools go in the appropriate Power Pool thread. And no, just by making "Healing" a Power Pool does not mean you've effectively turned any buff set into Empathy. Empathy was unique to itself. All you've done by allowing "Healing" to be a Power Pool is give any buff set some minor ability to "Heal". Radiation had that, Storm Summoning had that, Time Manipulation had that, Dark Miasma had that......a lot of sets had some form of minor healing.

You want to keep throwing around that there was no evidence of a single superhero standing in the background healing somebody during a fight, but what you fail to acknowledge is the fact that in a comic book the fight is determined by the writer. And honestly let's face it, it's way more heroic when the star superhero manages to finish off that bad guy just in the nick of time before he faceplants on the ground. If you were to look at large scale battles I'm sure there are healers in the background keeping people on their feet for the duration of the fight, or healing them just in time to be able to get back to the fight after they've fallen back and let someone else step forward in their place, or even brought people back from the dead to finish the fight. You don't see that in comics because that's not what the reader wants to see.

Once again you are trying to force your version of a superhero comic book genre onto other players that do not want that.

oOStaticOo wrote:

You don't see that in comics because that's not what the reader wants to see.

Actually, I'd argue that it's more the case of being the fact that "healing" is not a Visually Interesting Activity to watch ... unlike, say, fighting and combat. In [b]The Lord of the Rings[/b], John Rhys-Davies (Gimli) talked about in one of the DVD extras about how there was a scene where Gimli asked Galadriel for a hair from her head ... in an awestruck romantic gesture kind of way. The problem for John, as an actor, is that while doing that sort of thing works perfectly fine [i]as text in a book[/i] like The Lord of the Rings was, it's not something that "works" on screen when printed on film. He actually demonstrated for the interview camera by pulling a hair from his own head and holding it up in his fingers ... and you basically couldn't see it (and even if you could, it was meaningless to SEE it). So the way he got around the problem (as an actor) was by NOT SHOWING it and instead merely [i]talked about it[/i] with Legolas when they were paddling downstream from Lothlorien.

Healing is just another one of those things that doesn't "work" all that well as a Dramatic Visual. It's slightly better on film, because then you can show motion and have a visible continuity (cue Hugh Jackman as Wolverine and the special effects budget) ... but in a comic BOOK, with still frames, it just isn't that interesting or "useful" to look at. It's just yet another case were DOING the damage is a lot more engaging and entertaining than UNDOING the damage (or at least, visually representing the damage being undone). I submit that this is a major reason why "healing" is rarely featured as an incredibly significant and noteworthy superpower ... because there's not all that much to "see" when it gets used ... and because you can rarely "defeat" a Foe using healing powers alone.

So for me, the "bias" against healing powers in comic books is perfectly understandable ... because it's a power that ill serves the medium (comic books) that the stories get told in ... much like how Gimli couldn't be shown on screen receiving a hair from Galadriel's head, because on film it would just look stupid, even if it is an incredibly romantic request and gesture.

oOStaticOo wrote:

Once again you are trying to force your version of a superhero comic book genre onto other players that do not want that.

Which is exactly what you're trying to do, only in reverse. :p At least I already admitted I'd still play the game with it.

I even said, since it seemed like such a sidekick style of play, I could see it. Still doesn't stop it from being a very rare thing in comics, because it does stop exactly that in comics..."Well of course Starfire won the fight. She had Healer Boy in the background giving her a Deadpool level healing factor and the villain never thought to take him out first."

LaughingAlex wrote:

The holy trinity is a very boring thing to watch.

So is the game of Golf ... but people still play it because it is fun to PLAY even if it's deadly dull to WATCH as a spectator.

LaughingAlex wrote:

Basically everyone is letting someone else do something important in the fight for them.

Because the alternative is a Massively Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game (MSORPG) ... because one Player (the proverbial [url=http://cometgirlblog.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/all-hail-the-tank-mage/]Tank Mage[/url]) can do everything and everyone else on the Team is rendered ... redundant.

The notion of a "division of labor" is not anathema to a good gaming experience.

LaughingAlex wrote:

The healers are letting the damage dealers dish it out while the tanks take it all, the tanks are letting the damage dealers dish it out and depend on the healers healing them to keep them alive and so on.

If this were a Military Operation, you'd be talking in terms of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_arms]Combined Arms[/url] ... which is usually the best path to achieving victories (provided you can get the "mix" right).

LaughingAlex wrote:

The word boring doesn't even describe it for someone watching that.

To be fair, I personally found City of Heroes, Tabula Rasa, Star Trek Online and TERA to all be orders of magnitude more fun to PLAY than they are to WATCH.

LaughingAlex wrote:

It is far more entertaining when someone wins from a narrow fight.

This is why people stop watching football games when the score is a blowout ... but are hanging on the edge of their seats if the game is close. All you're talking about is the notion that the outcome must be UNCERTAIN before people invest themselves in the outcome. Bookies have been collecting money on laying odds of victory for years.

Two of my favorite characters in my favorite current comic are Tempus and Triage of Uncanny X-Men are amazing characters. Morph is getting there after they did the one-shot explaining a bit more of his abilities.

The entire "Runaways" book basically CAME from a gaming campaign. To try and fit other people into your mold is lame. Make the playground big enough for the dodgeball players AND the kids playing tag AND the kids playing teatherball. Don't go and remove the dodgeball just because SOME kids don't like it.. if you dont like it don't play it.

The argument over what does and doesn't appear in comic books is so moot to me anyhow. Give us heal mechanics? WHY because its a role MANY people ENJOY. No single role will be "neccesary" for any content, but they will add to the combat mechanic.

Yes, but we never had a true holy trinity in CoH even with healing powers existing. Nor was it always necessary to have a tanker. If all characters had had only their primary pool available, I might agree. But each defender had an offensive blaster secondary pool.
With villains everything became even more muddled and roles switching to hybrids, like the brute being the villain tanker/DPS hybrid.
When designing a game like this one either goes for "tactical" roles like big lugs taking the damage, etc. or you will have something chaotic twitch-based games where reaction is your defense or chaos reigns in general. While being fun for a while on its own, it takes away from character strengths because everyone does everything thus removing the need for ATs in general.
Back to "healing". I would think of healing to be just a "role" to help keep people alive. Replace it with something else which fulfills the description. If the game is well balanced, it will work just as well, but a team will have to adapt. You will never play with the same characters all the time, so it is fun to learn how to work together regardless what people bring. Taking one defense option away is just limiting choice. Some people like it, some people hate it, but nobody is forced to play it if they think healing is not heroic.
I always found it heroic sacrificing your own life and survivablity with absorb pain to keep people alive as a last-ditch effort. So for me at least there was heroism even in healing. Or staying behind healing your allies even if you are close to defeat yourself.

Are we STILL on this one? REALLY? You know what would happen if they made a powerset where you could control little flying ponies that shot rainbows? I wouldn't play it. However if enough players wanted it (and that's what polling is for) then I'd say let them have it. If it was annoying to me, I wouldn't team with people who played it.

Seriously, people. Anyone who is that concerned about how others have fun in a game really need to re-prioritize.

I agree. Put it to a vote and see how it comes out. I believe that is the way City did it when they were trying to come up with new ideas for powers. Worked for them. I can't complain if I put my two cents in, but enough of everybody else's two cents outweighed mine. Hey, I at least got the chance to make it happen. Never having that choice though, kind of irks me. This isn't DC. This isn't Marvel. So saying there should be no healing because DC and Marvel doesn't have it prevalent sounds stupid to me. This is a game being developed by players for players and therefore should have player input as to how it is being made. And if enough people want and think there should be healing in the game then there should be healing in the game. Trust me, there will be plenty of people that will want healing in the game.

Redlynne wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
Seriously, people. Anyone who is that concerned about how others have fun in a game really need to re-prioritize.
Puritans lived in deathly fear/dread that someone somewhere might be enjoying themselves. Here, though, it looks more like a selfish desire to spend "developer resources for me, but not for thee" at work.

Yup...that's right...trying to stick closer to the superhero genre is totally acting like Puritans. *nod* You are so right. Those saying, let's not put this in are saying putting it in means they can't/won't play the game. Those saying, why not put it in another way are totally trying to ruin things, especially considering that CoT powersets will likely not work like CoH powersets at all.

oOStaticOo wrote:

I swear to all that is holy I am getting so sick of hearing "Superhero Genre"!!!!!!!!!!!! If you really want it to be more like Superhero Genre then we might as well make it a MSORPG! Let's face it, there are more solo heroes than there are teams! So let's get rid of healing, let's get rid of teaming, let's get rid of any kind of free thinking whatsoever because if it were to true to Superhero Genre, plot and outcome are already determined and the good guy always wins!

You realize before CoH went and changed it to "Hero MMO" it was "Superhero MMO" Also, comics make super teams work all the time.

And wasn't it already stated that while the villain will beable to take over the city, it would last only so long before it was taken away? :p Villains (and I did play some villains...in fact, I upset people for RPing an actual villain instead of some anti-hero in CoV, that I had to dial it back) in the game will never be fully in control.

Now, they could make it so they are, and that heroes have to constantly struggle, but if it got enough villains to do that, we'd likely see a shift in the player base going to "the winning side"

Frankly fail to see a connection between healing hero vs villain.
For that matter I don't see a major connection between powerset design in a game, and power depictions in a comic.
When Wolverine "dies" once or twice a fight in a comic its suspenseful. When I have to rez or respawn once or twice a fight in a game.........I have to buy a new monitor.

-joe

Not at all what I mean.

Notice it was not "when I die" but "when I die repeatedly".

The odd death adds flavor and assures you that something was accomplished. Death as a regular outcome in a gaming session means either 1.you suck as a player 2. the game is poorly designed or 3.you are playing some one off like odd world.
I'm sorry but genre considerations must be secondary to game play considerations in what is, after all, a game.
In some sort of RP scenario I might be inclined to think differently, but we are discussing combat mechanics. One enters combat to engage in....combat. Being one with the floor, or in an ambulance is is being engaged in "not combat". In small doses it motivates you to improve your game in anything more that that it motivates you to find a different game.

-joe

Brand X wrote:

I used to die lots in fighting games and pretty quickly. I found it just made me want to get better. *shrug*

Right, but this is not a 'fighting game', it's an MMORPG. So, rather than dying, I prefer to bring along my friend who has some buffs (or debuffs) and a Heal of some kind. Then we can both go to town on the baddies and have a blast, because Together we are tougher than them.

In fact, that's a core Problem with the whole Comic Book Genre. Almost all of the heroes in comics are solo. Those that are ostensibly 'teams' only actually team up against colossal enemies. Solo heroes have to supply all of the DPS themselves, so almost every one of them is DPS specced and not buff/debuff/support/heal specced. Because, you know, a support-hero is not as dynamic, flashy, and photogenic as a blood-mad scrapper.

Be Well!
Fireheart

It's obvious by now that nothing anybody says will ever change Brand's mind or feelings about this subject. Brand will continue to twist your words and fall back on the whole "Comic Book Genre/Game Emersion" argument over and over again.