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I think trying to remove something people are arguing FOR is counter-productive.
When the stated goal is opening up possibilities, you're just closing shops..
Would seem fairer to argue for the inclusion of BOTH if development time would allow for two ways to access any given content.
This would also not be a bad thing, if one portal (say the shop) suddenly stopped working, you'd still have alternative access.
I'd still prefer it NOT to be a menu and be a Shop in the City, a vendor you could add to your base, a contact you could summon.. whatever... but a menu wouldn't be a game changer. I'd also hope that the costume creator will be available very much offline so you could set up your backstory, your power choices, your look(s) and then launch the game when you are ready.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Back to the healing debate think about this remove all burst heals and work it with one of three alternatives. HoTs which can be seen as speeding up one's natural healing or if you have time control undoing damage dealt within a certain amount of time. Temporary HP is another method. Anyone who plays MOBAs are familiar with how shields work in this situation. Finally for big healing in combat a power that is able to remove a character from combat and give then a second wind getting reduced cool downs and temporary regeneration sort of like when Sue Storm/Invisible woman throws up a dome around Ben when he needs a breather. That makes me think that the FF is actually a well balanced team when you think about it. The thing is a tank, Mr.Fantastic is a scraper, Human torch blaster and Invisible woman is a defender. Perhaps thinking of them would be a good way of thinking about teams in CoT as most of the other super teams are more SG level when you think about it.
Regen had the lowest overall survivability due to the lack of up-front mitigation; you had to survive taking all the damage before you could start healing it back. Defense was a mixed bag; as long as you got lucky on the defense rolls, you didn't take any damage at all, but when you did, it hurt bad. Resistance was the most reliable; you knew up front what fraction of the incoming damage you'd be taking.
Regen was [i]perceived[/i] as being OP because, at the end of a close-fought fight, the Regen scrapper would be standing there virtually uninjured, while his Def- and Res-based compatriots would be seriously down hit points. What most people didn't understand was that this was inherent to the [i]nature[/i] of Regen as a defensive powerset; the healing rate necessary to stay alive while fighting a half-dozen mobs meant that, when you were finally down to the last mob in a spawn, your healing rate was so ridiculously overpowered for the amount of damage you were taking that you might as well have 100% resistance. And people didn't see that the 'moment of truth' for Regen characters occurred, not toward the end of the fight, but relatively early on, when the incoming damage rate was the highest; if a Regen scrapper survived long enough to defeat enough opponents to drop the incoming damage below their healing rate, they could go AFK while the remaining mobs beat on them.
Generally for the same reason that some people like Science Fiction, and others prefer Fantasy...
different genres, even though they may touch on similar tropes, and discuss similar themes..... are distinct.
Superhero comics do have their own Genre... a fairly excepting one at that... but there are underlying sensibilities that DnD-raised MMO mechanics don't gel with.
This is one of those things.
This argument has two thrusts, really. The first, is that healing systems in past games don't "fit" with the genre of the game (just like having unexplained magic in a Science Fiction game)
The second is that having such systems in place created a flawed perspective about the mechanics of the game (the "perception" that the game required healers, that Buffers were "the healers" reguardless of the way they chose to play, and that non-healers were marginalized as a result) which Damaged the QoL of both those who were not healers but otherwise buffers (or even empath/them/pain) and those who expected buffers to function as healers do "in MMOs"
Both concerns (reguardless of my bias) are VALID concerns, and worth looking into. The potential compromises (all put forth by the side that wanted healing to "go home", I might add) have all been attempts to in some way re-structure the buff sets in the game so that there is no stigmatized "healing set," without obviously turning them all into healing sets (thus minimizing the healing footprint in the game, and changing the underlying perception of how roles function and integrate, rather than adhering to "trinity logic.")
Some have argued that some powers should simply be cut, or that the powers that exist have their effectiveness dramatically cut, limiting the total possible healing output of the game.
Others (myself, in this category) have sought to maintain healing's potency, but separate any sense of "healing dominance" in the number of, or efficacy of, healing powers in the unique power sets, so that the expectations of buffing sets is altered and any additional healing potential of any set in the game becomes a personal choice.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I think Regen was, actually, fairly well balanced with the other direct mitigation defenses. Resistance constantly took damage. A reduced amount, but they were constantly taking damage from the enemy. Defense occasionally took damage. As you said, when they did get hit, it hurt. Regen constantly took damage as well. The full amount, but they could mitigate the damage after the fact. That was it's big balancing point. If you could survive the alpha strike (MoG) then you could pretty much survive the fight as well as the Resistance or Defense based characters. They each had their strengths and weaknesses. Player enjoyment with each type was determined by their play-style.
I enjoyed my Katana/Regen scrapper.
Okay. Let's look at it this way, I come into a Sword & Sorcery low tech, magic is king, watch out for goblins setting and then ask for cybernetic implant costume options complete with cybernetic arms and a HuD in a targeting reticle and two variable laser submachine pistols, complete with a SUX 2000 with roof mounted gatling rail gun and sidewinder missles.
So, do you say "Yes! More options!" or do you say "Doesn't fit the genre!"
I have a mental disconnect with this argument because it ignores the medium. In this particular case, the medium demands having thousands, even tens or hundreds of thousands, of super-powered individuals within a tiny geographic area. Trying to draw parallels between that and Batman, Superman, or even Avengers stories raises some obvious problems. It's all the difference between the Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters and an Ohio State University for Gifted Individuals.
I'm certainly curious about exploring a new healing/damage paradigm, which is a rather different kind of game than declaring, "No big heals" and calling it a day. So long as the standard hit point/health model is used the healing must have the tools to hold its own in the tug-of-war against damage. Unless people want to enforce the tank-healer combo, this means also being able to heal someone who takes considerably more damage over a shorter period of time.
In all, I rather liked where CoH was at with its heals, which were spread out in some form over enough power sets that a team had a decent chance of having one or more people with a heal without specifically looking for a healing power set.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
And there is nothing to say that magic *cannot* co-exist with cybernetics (in a fashion). Hell, there has been a successful RPG based on this *entire* premise.
Shadowrun (and as an alternative slant on it, Earthdawn)
Disclaimer: I am going to keep posting ideas and solutions rather than get into the arguments themselves. No bad ideas, just not always the best for a paricular situation.
The devs could make a genre specific rule that healing happens within close range (not melee but close) and they will cast AoE shields around friendly targets (yes this is directly from Wildstar)
The devs could make a genre specific rule that all healing happens a HoTs and there be no spike healing.
The devs could make a genre specific rule that all healing not actually increase HP but instead make Damage come out of the target's energy pool.
Remember the devs are creating the power progressions. They have the ability to write different heal mechanics for players that stay within trope.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Well, to your rather extreme example, I'd have to say 'time-travelers', or, in other words, not a 'genre' issue, but 'anachronism'. Or... well, have you seen the Dwarf Hunters in WoW? Plenty of other games give the Gnomes or Dwarfs 'technology' and it's not even new, Gnomes had 'robots' in EverQuest.
City is a modern setting, which means that anachronism is not necessarily an issue.
Be Well!
Fireheart
An idea I had during the weekend (when I couldn't check the forums here) essentially involved putting Healing onto a "switch" that was conditional on whether or not the Caster's current state was either [b]In Combat[/b] or it was [b]Out Of Combat[/b].
In Combat: all Healing is done either as Heal Over Time or as a Regeneration Buff
Out Of Combat: all Healing is done as an Instant effect
What makes this kind of switching performance interesting for me is that it functionally mandates an In Combat/Out Of Combat state tracker be included in the game. Another one of the exciting game mechanics featured in Tabula Rasa was that you could get on a "hot streak" of making kills fairly quickly, which would then grant you a temporary, In Combat XP Buff, which could get cranked all the way up to being X6 so long as you were able to keep chowing down on crunchy Foes quickly enough. Dropping into an Out Of Combat state would essentially end the "hot streak" and terminate the XP Buff. If it helps any, think of it as being something like Brute Fury for XP Buffing instead of Damage, except that it didn't "drain" away slowly but rather "crashed" when you dropped Out Of Combat. In Tabula Rasa, I think it took 10 seconds of not attacking or being attacked to drop out of combat.
[url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Experience]Tabula Rasa Experience[/url]
The interesting thing about this was that Players were essentially being "rewarded" for going on rampages through the Foe NPCs (re: Brute Fury style incentive structure) that could result in potentially reckless gameplay, which of course made it more exciting!
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Just to point out that the XP multiplier in TR was also level locked as well (at least for a long period of time in the game).
1-9 = X2 max
10-19 = x3 max
20-29 = x4 max
30-39 = x5 max
40-50 = x6 max
That is *IF* I remember correctly (although granted, with the HyperXP tokens that were available after the shutdown announcement, it was totally possible to go from post tutorial to cap in under an hour)
ooh, I kind of like this in/out of combat effect modifier....
...on paper. In practice, I think it would be annoying having your power suddenly not seem to do what it was supposed to do. :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
But we're speaking of keeping to genre. Look at my example again. You wouldn't put those in a fantasy setting :p This is a superhero setting. Read some mainstream superhero comics.
In CO, out of combat characters heal up fairly quickly on their own. In combat, it seems to be no healing unless a power (an active healing power used on you or a passive effect like Regen or some auras). So when the game first came out, some of the mobs were apparently agging with others but not being able to attack for some reason. So, for example, we'd go through Burnside, laying cowboy ghosts to rest, and then realize we weren't healing back up in between fights. No one was attacking us, but we'd still be in combat unless we got far enough away from the area...
If we do go with modified effects based on whether we're in combat or not, I'd like to recommend an indication on our HUD as to what our current combat status is. And maybe a change in the icons for any powers that have their effects change for whatever reason.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I do not mind healing out of combat being disabled. It introduces a "cost" to continued combat that I would appreciate. Sure you COULD just charge into combat, but if you knew you had to go a while before being brought back to full health you may take more care.
This is coming from ME.. someone who plans on being a glass character with little offense. Just a thought. How much is healing out of combat faithful to genre?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Thought the suggestion was the opposite... to "disable"[b] in combat[/b] healing (not really... just changing from immediate effect to HoT)
and the few "healers" in genre only really heal out of combat.
It's the in-combat healing that's "weird" and unbefitting the genre...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Faithfulness to genre is a tricky thing. Comics are not cartoon, nor are super hero movies games. That said I can think of a few cases of out of combat healing.
No healing out of combat, essentially means an enforced period of "rest" to top off between spawns. I cannot see that being even remotely well received by any of the folks I teamed with in the past.
It could also turn things very ugly for any team that lacks enough dps to finish an encounter before the next ambush or patrol wanders by. Think Issue 6 Hollows pugs and you get a sense of the feel.
Don't misunderstand me though, I never requested a "healer" in CoX, and I actively despised auto HA.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
My apologies.
My comment was not in relation to any of my previous suggestions. Just putting new ideas out there.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
again, Joe... I think you've got it BACKWARDS...
As per the suggestion
Healing OUT OF COMBAT works QUICKLY
it is Healing IN COMBAT that would be slowed...
...And I quote:
so, when you're in a fight, healing functions more like additional "resolve"... pushing you to be able to last a little longer...
but out of combat, healers can quickly bring you back to full strength.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
My apologies for reversing intent. I tend to keep regen and healing strictly apart in my mind as a result of far to many hours in MIDs. Tends to cause a misfire in such a long discussion.
Out of combat accelerated regen or direct healing are functionally the same so no great shakes there. In combat *shrug* if it were just me I would be fine with regen buffs applied precombat with the odd bandaid heal for emergencies,think o2 or aid other. As mentioned I never had any great need for a "healer".
I can't help but remember we are discussing an MMO however. Many in that genre of game expect healing to be a role and want to fill it, by choice.
While I would not shed many tears removing a great deal of healing from powersets, I would not wish to discard other's toys so callously.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
You mean, like Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Zatara, Doctor Strange, Witchfire, Magik, Ashake, Brother Voodoo, Doctor Doom, Forge, Nico Minoru, and Enchantress? Scarlet Witch's hexes might be magic, might be mutant, might be Both.
Then there's anything to do with the Norse Pantheon or the Greek, Egyptian, or Roman gods. And all of the Conan books are rife with magic. Tarzan only has a little. Heck, Magic is noted as one of the few things that can affect Superman.
And City of Heroes did not limit itself to the 'superheroes' genre. Why should City of Titans?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Conan is not part of the superhero genre.
And never said magic wasn't part of the superhero genre, I said the ability to heal others was very much a rare part of the genre.
Now, let's go back and look at what I suggested and a suggestion that I agreed with.
I never once said make it unable to heal others. My suggestion was to make either an Empathy power set rare and something for someone to work for, at which point, no one has been able to say why that idea is bad.
The other idea was to make Healing Others a Power Pool, at which point, you can turn all ATs into the Empathy style of play. This allows everyone who wants to make an CoH Empathy style character the ability to make one.
So, what exactly is your problem with these suggestions? All you'd have to do next, is pick the buff set that more closely matches the other buffs Empathy had.
Here is my problem with making Healing a Power Pool set.
One. We don't know how many Power Pool sets we will be getting, and personally I'd like to make sure that what Power Pool sets are available are the most beneficial to my character as possible for the amount we might be given.
Two. Power Pool sets are generally not as potent or effective as Main and Secondary Powers are.
Three. Some builds may be extremely tight when it comes to Power selections to have an effective build. See Martial Arts from CoH.
Four. We've all ready had the option of having Healing as a Power Pool in CoH and look at how often people chose to pick that set and then got laughed at for having it in their build.
As far as the Unlock idea.
One. I Never liked the idea that I had to Unlock a character or Power if I'm paying for a game.
Two. Even CoH lowered the Unlock option for Kheldians after a while because people really wanted to play a Kheldian and didn't like having to wait till they got a 50 to Unlock it.
Three. Even if we have to Unlock it, eventually it will be done and there will still be 100's of Healers running around ruining your emersion of your game.
Now to address the whole "Comic Book Hero Genre".
Your idea of a Comic Book Super Hero and someone else's idea may or may not be the same. While you are saying it ruins your idea of the genre, you are also ruining someone else's idea of the genre as well. My idea of a Superhero genre does include super powers to heal other people. Yours does not. Doesn't make my idea any less valid than yours.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Here also is a list of Super Heroes that can heal other people in Comics.
Elixir - Marvel
Chloe Sullivan - DC
Raven - Teen Titans
Mister Negative - Marvel
Doctor Strange - Marvel
Doctor Fate - DC
White Lanterns - DC
Blue Lanterns - DC
Green Fury - DC
Immorto - DC
Cyrus Krupp - Smallville
So may we please lay to rest that Healing Others doesn't exist in Comic Book Super Hero genres?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I agree. Saying healers don't exist or are rare is a weak and barely relevant argument.
First and above all else this is a video game. No matter what lore you s slap on top of the mechanics, the mechanics must be solid first.
Buffing /healing can be nuanced and not the same as it has been and I support advocating for the type of buffs we the players find enjjoyable.. but there's no reason to argue what is in or outside lore restrictions .
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And that, to me, is the key to being able to satisfy folks who have differing opinions of the genre and how closely the game should adhere to it: let them decide for themselves. If you don't want a healer to be part of the mix on your team, you don't invite one. When I built teams I went for combinations of powers I thought would be interesting, and that didn't include looking for Emps. I don't see any benefit to keeping people who do want to have, or to play (as I sometimes did), an Emp-type character from having that option available, though. As the CoX experience proved, I can be happy without making them unhappy.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Also the flash can heal others by using the speed force to accelerate their healing to extreme levels. I will admit that I consider this silly but they gave him the power so what can you do.
agreed, cold... but he wasnt doing that to batman while he's throwing batarangs and smoke bombs.... he was doing that during lulls in the fight or after combat all-together.....
same is true of all healing in genre.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
So lets just make it so that healing *OF ALL TYPES AND FORMS* can only be done out of combat... and when in combat you are unable to use it, and that "regen" abilities can only be *kicked off* outside at combat, or run at a slower rate inside combat.
You might say "but wolverine heals in combat", yes he does... but at a *slower* rate (typically for dramatic effect) than when he is NOT in combat.
*Edit* I would like to say that healing as well, even in most fantasy novels, is typically done "out of combat"... for D&D and the like, although you *can* heal in combat, there was always a chance for failure or healing for a pitiful amount (remember having to roll a dice to see how much you healed for?).
Depending on the MMO though, some have a range for the heal (ie heal 90-140 points of HP), others (like CoX for example) healed for a *fixed* amount (ie a character slotted the same way as another, will still heal for *exactly* the same amount... time after time after time).
I think all of the "anti" healing types would totally agree with at....
...but the "pro" healing types would be absolutely against it.
As for myself... I feel like there should be no/very few "insta-heals" (reguardless of potency) for allies, while in combat.... or that the process should be a difficult/costly.(interruptable, long cool downs or high endurance/health costs for the caster, while in combat.)
+regen and HoT type heals (or "hp max buffs", illusory hp and the like) should be the available in-combat tools and should function more like other buffs do (something who's "existence" is managed by the user, more than having buffers "manage health bars")
Basically, I feel that Instantly improving an ally's health, while in combat, should be a RARE thing, and not the norm for any Archetype or specific Power Set.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Strangely enough, HoT is something that a lot of other MMO's have and that CoX *didn't* have.
Well, we've wandered a bit far from my intent in the OP. I had hoped it would be possible, with proper tweaking , to keep "healer" sets desirable, even if healing was globally adjusted downward. IMHO it would still be wanted even if it didn't instantly fix everything.
Personally, I liked the suggestion for what I'd call a "second set of hitpoints" that did not heal up as easily between fights, to accomplish my "heroic decision to play hurt" goal.
I admit that what I am envisioning might be a delicate balancing act, but in my mind anyway, it might be possible to create incentives to press ahead wounded [i]rather than wait to heal up between fights[/i], and make healing effective enough that pressing ahead is not fatal (although increasingly risky the more wounded you get) but not [i]so effective[/i] as to make players unbeatable unless the designers throw one-shot-kill-level damage at us.
Captain of Phoenix Rising
It's not a valid concern just because you say so.
"the expectations of buffing sets is altered"
- these are YOUR expectations, everything else is projection.
Your whole reason to change the way healing works is based on everyone in CoH having a "flawed perception" of how it worked?
I'd be fine with changes to healing. Make it into a new set. Make an all HoT set that only heals out of combat. I'll keep my emps and my rads, and thermals and darks and pain dom toons.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
I do like the idea of healing working faster out of combat than in combat.
I am not the dev that designs this stuff though.
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IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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I'm not going to argue whether "heaing" is genre specific or not to "superheroes" in the general medium. We do get to define what our "supers" can do in this world. Having super powers is a type of fantasy, and thus many fantastical possibilities are abound. One thing we should take into consideration is players who enjoy taking on a support role, whether that be through shields, power-ups, healing, or a combination of these effects.
Currently, and this may change, but differences between in combat and out of combat self-regenerative effects may exist. A form of "resting" may exist. Regenerative support powers, heals over time, direct spike heals, are all on the table. In the past we've had more than our fair share of lengthy discussions on the subject and I'm sure many still abound. One thing those of us who have designed initial concepts for powers, sets, and their application is to one: keep things simple. Players should know what to expect from their power. If your heal is designed to provide a certain amount of healing, to have that change all the time could be troubling for the one trying to support through this method.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Fair enough, Tann.... but if the function remains the same, but the potency changes in and out of combat..... is that the same thing as "not simple" from a player's perspective?
"not as quick or potent while in combat" isn't a particularly complex reality....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
"If your heal is designed to provide a certain amount of healing, to have that change all the time could be troubling for the one trying to support through this method."
This I can understand. Regen much like debuffs are a subtle thing. Potent in the hands of those who observe and scheme. Unappreciated and unseen by those with a more direct approach. A subtle player does not need heals usually, a direct player may. Having heals vary situationally would be akin to a blaster having his damage vary. A direct player wants those big red/green numbers and is not likely to appreciate having that fooled with.
-joe
PS best wishes to the devs as they try to balance all these concerns.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
This depends, is the potency always a problem or not? At which point does healing become too potent? When considering a "combat" value of healing, there is still a desired result of performance from a design perspective that heals will provide. What occurs after this desired point is reached for "in combat" healing, is that "out of combat healing" becomes more potent, and speeds up health recovery, which are all good and fine things in of themselves, it does not necessarily change the in-combat desired sustainability healing provides.
If say we create a defensive set and have a desired sustainability metric we want it to perform within, and part of the set's design is to utilize a self heal in order to reach, or perform within the desired metric over time, doesn't change how we really design the healing effect if there is a difference in combat healing to out of combat healing. We set the heal for the desired amount based on how the set is designed to perform (with other possible adjustments in other power effects but you should get the idea). The same can be said of support power sets and the sustainability they provide. Should this be the case, then instead of "nerf" healing, what has occured is "buffed healing".
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Healing could become too powerful if you could pop it so often and it healed that much HP that you were practically unkillable.
Being practically unkillable should take more than just healing.
I guess in that case you'd track down the offending power and hit it with the -recharge -HP bat or tweak an AT modifier here, or there.
For out of combat healing are we talking about me healing you with my healing powers that now, for no reason, have started working since we left combat or..
the self-regen that kicks in on tons of games after a battle so you can self-heal up for the next one?
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
not for no reason.... for the reasonable reason that we neither of us are in the middle of combat anymore.
hard for skin to knit when it's being perpetually retorn, hard to maintain a healing spell when distractions are going off all over the place.... it's not unreasonable at all that it would be more effective to heal outside of combat..... in fact, I'm pretty sure that why they can patch you up better in a hospital than on the battlefield....
and I still think most of us are considering self powers basically exempt from the conversation at this point... the concerns have been mostly about healing others beyond (sadly) the original post, which called for a complete scaling back of healing as a mechanism for survivability
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Orion you normally make a cogent point but most of us are talking game mechanic, while you are talking genre tropes.
Something similar went on for years in the old tanker forums. For a game to be fun to play concessions must be made.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I also love how people are picking and choosing when to insert reality into the situation vs. a comic book genre reality. You claim that in the real world there is no instantaneous healing, and you are correct. However, super powered healing would be instantaneous because it is super powered. It would heal in the blink of an eye because it has been super enhanced and super sped up. Sure there could be some people that heal others at a more slower rate because that may not be their primary usage of such a power, but for someone who has dedicated their powers to that ability it would be instant.
You want to argue that things are not being true to the genre, but then you go and contradict yourself by inserting reality to support your logic. How does that work?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
1) Nope we don't. So this is a bit invalid as it seems people already want healing for a concept, which making it a power pool allows.
2) Something we hope is different in CoT. This isn't CoH.
3) Martial Arts required 3 ST (Thunder Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, Crane Kick/Cobra Punch) attacks and 1 for the PBAOE (Dragon's Kick) for best ST Damage and the AOE attack.
4) Because it was interruptible. No one liked interruptible abilities.
1) had to unlock Incarnates. Had to get to certain levels to unlock Power/Epic Pools.
2) And many didn't like it when they did that. And that was an AT, not a powerset.
3) Possible.
No, my idea of the hero genre is to make it rare. There's only one way to do that. Unlock. So you have to work for it. You have to work for getting to max level too.
I can't see them making Power Pools stronger than the Main and Secondary powers as Power Pools are meant to augment your character and give them something extra to play with. Which is what I'd like to see from the Power Pool sets, extra toys that are fun and unique to have but not necessarily game breaking.
My apologies I was thinking Super Reflexes and typed Martial Arts.
I never said I liked having to unlock Incarnates or Epic Pools. I understand the reasoning behind it, still don't like it.
I didn't notice anybody complaining about Kheldians being unlocked at 20. I saw more people happy about it. I know Kheldians were an AT. Your argument there doesn't make any sense.
Your idea to make it rare still conflicts with someone else's idea. Again, still doesn't make your idea better than anybody else's who thinks differently.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
So do I, for whatever that's worth.
To put an additional level of specificity on my proposal that healing in combat is Heal Over Time while healing out of combat is Instant ... I was thinking entirely in terms of identical healing "throughput" (ie. same Hit Points healed either way). The only difference between the two was in terms of Instant versus Over Time.
So a Power that could heal +300 Hit Points would do so either instantly when Out Of Combat ... or at a rate of +50 Hit Points per second for 6 seconds when In Combat. That way the "strength" of the healing is identical, but the timing of it is not. Set up healing Powers to not self stack (meaning that the same Power from the same Caster will overwrite itself rather than stacking if recast before the duration of the first cast has elapsed) and you'd have a fairly simple but effective method of "governing" how quickly healing effects can be delivered in combat situations.
As an additional layer of complexity adding to improved gameplay opportunities, one thing that could potentially be done with an enforcement of In Combat Heal Over Time Only is that Enhancements that buff the total amount of healing delivered could ALSO buff the rate at which those healing powers take effect. So using my prior example of the +300 Hit Point heal ... with a +100% buff the Power would deliver +600 Hit Points of healing instantly when Out Of Combat ... or deliver +200 Hit Points per second for 3 seconds when In Combat.
Yeah, it should take Regeneration ... so I guess it's time to Nerf Regen again already.
/em tongue in cheek
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Feh ... lousy forum software that doesn't like edits.
As an addendum to my above clarification, the In Combat/Out Of Combat status of the TARGET of a heal Power is what determines if the healing done is Instant or Heal Over Time.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I completely forgot about the interrupt ability! That's already an "in combat debuff" #JussSayin
Crowd Control Enthusiast
If you build a Healing/buffing set and then put it behind an Unlock then it had better be one HELL of a set.
Just sayin...
Just because YOU want healing to be rare, don't assume everyone feels the same way.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Because it's a power pool ability doesn't mean it has to be suckie either.
At the end of CoH, most secondary defense sets had you grabbing ALL the powers except possibly the tier 9 (and one didn't usually grab the tier 9 for SR).
I did. Hell, I knew a couple of players who, while they didn't leave the game over it, didn't care for it because they got to 50 the hard way to unlock their Epic AT (remember CoV had Epic ATs too).
And their idea conflicts with mine. :p Also, making it a power pool means it's not rare. So, a non-issue. In fact, this way makes it much more possible to be VERY common. :p
I disagree.
Kheldians and Solider of Arachnos ATs were not the ONE HELL OF A SET. And neither were the paid for sets CoH released.
And just because YOU don't want it to be rare, doesn't mean there aren't others who would want to see it be rare.
But really, as time goes on with this, I'm see it more and more as "Sure why not. I guess heroes and villains do have sidekicks." So maybe it does make sense.
I hereby declare that any "healer" type that joins a team of mine shall only be addressed as my YOUNG WARD.
Hah! Love it. Best thing to appear in this thread in 300+ posts.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I'd probably call them Young Padawan. But that's me...
Flying is hard. Leaping over tall buildings in a single bound, hard. Surviving fatal doses of radiation.. hard.
It might be hard for your dps character to heal in-battle. That I'd accept. That's why your self-heal has a long cool-down. As the healing specialist however this is not hard, this is what I do.
Out of combat healing would inherently be more effective as there is no incoming damage. At the same time it also becomes less useful as you aren't losing health.
What I think would become a nightmare is if you had an insp, a magic flask, a medikit, whatever, and its effect was situational. The numbers should stay the same.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Ok...different tack then: Give ALL powers that Heal others a 'Friend in Need' modifier. If the target is low on Health, they get a more substantial boost. Those not as badly hurt get less of a boost. The closer the target is to 90% Health, the less of a boost they get. At 90% or above they get nothing.
This means that while Healing can be use to HELP an ally it cannot heal them completely. The top 10% has to come from resting, self-healing, Insps or just pacing yourself so your natural Regen keeps up.
Btw I'm talking Healing here, not Regen. I think we should treat them as two separate animals because all characters have a natural rate of Regen but not all characters have a method of self-healing.
What all of this means is that if the party is really torn up, they're grateful to have the Healing. If they're cruising along, pretty healthy, the heals give them little to nothing and the player will be more inclined to use their OTHER powers.
Healing will be the thing that brings you back from the brink (like in the comics), not the casual thing that gets thrown around ALL the time to keep you healthy. The 90% is of course open to debate...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Bleh. I don't even want to [b]think[/b] about what that would do to game balance considerations, since it would be such a purely circumstantial modifier. It's basically [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Vigilance]Vigilance[/url] for Reckless gameplay.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Seems to me that the general problem with Empathy isn't the set itself, but the player behind the set. Everybody seems to want to see somebody do more buffing than healing. That they want to get away from this "Holy Trinity" of Tank, DPS, Healer. Problem is is that there will always be a "Holy Trinity". Tank, DPS, Buffer. Tank, DPS, Debuffer. Instead of seeing "Looking for Healer!" you'll be seeing "Looking for X Buffer!" or "Looking for X Debuffer!". People will get on a team and the leader will ask "Do you do X Buff or X Debuff?" "No?" /kick. You'll start hearing "Why weren't you Buffing or Debuffing!?! I saw you attacking. That's not your job!". People will always look to maximize their outcome while minimalizing their effort.
There is nothing wrong with the Empathy set. The only thing wrong is the perception of it. Either it doesn't fit into your definition of your world, or it has been sullied by the improper usage from somebody else and now has been forever burned into your brain as such. So therefore, since there is no way you can make a person play a set the way you see how it should be played it then falls on either getting rid of the set or changing it in such a way that it is no longer deemed playable in a fashion that you see fit. I have a big problem with this. Because once again, you are basically trying to get me to play something the way YOU want it to be played and not the way I want to play it.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Not a HoT as you see them in other MMOs, perhaps, but you could argue that any +Regen power (i.e., Regeneration Aura) was in effect a HoT even though you didn't see the green numbers floating up the way you did with a regular heal.
Didn't Time Manipulation (appropriately enough) have a heal over time? I recall making happy use of such a thing on a mastermind, but maybe that is a false memory.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
So did Pain for MMs IIRC.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Time_Manipulation.Temporal_Mending]Temporal Mending[/url]
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Mastermind_Buff.Pain_Domination.Soothing_Aura]Suppress Pain[/url] for Masterminds was actually a Regeneration buff Toggle.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't know if i've stated this before and am to lazy to go through the thread.
I think "resting" for health regeneration just leads to people using more cheap escapes. If it is to exist please let it be be a low-rider (aka LOW and SLOW) and not a "health reset". Gaining health should be a mechanic for healer/buffers to have purpose.
I of course speak to the STANDARD and not self heal powers like regeneration.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Correction, most healing in genre, not all.
As an example, Anastasia (Stasi) Inyushin, from the comic Psi Force (Marvel's New Universe) had powerful healing abilities and she regularly used them during combat. People with healing abilities using them during fights was not common, but it was not unheard of.
One of the difference between the comics and the game is that comics are scripted. If you're not supposed to die, you won't.
The game is more dynamic and the players write the story. As has already been stated, if the AI had four gray cells working it would ignore the Tanker and finish off everyone else first. The fact that it doesn't is suspension of disbelief as well as game mechanics. I think Healing has to fall under the same umbrella.
We're STILL trying to tell other players how to play their game and that's wrong
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Actually. You're wrong. You're 100% wrong. No one is telling other players how to play their game.
What people are doing is suggesting what the game will allow a player to do, as there is no game being played.
If the devs decide not to include an Empathy-like set (highly unlikely...as they were CoH players) and thusly not an option, we can't tell people "Do or do not play an Empathy-like powerset".
By your wording, not including every powerset imaginable is from the start, telling other players how to play their game.
So all that's being done right now Is suggesting ways to either have healing be an option without a powerset.
Power Pool is still a great option for it, as it allows anyone to be the healer regardless of AT choosen, and since people say they want to be a healer, that just gave them the option...you only think it will be rare to choose it as it's a power pool and CoH's healing Power Pool was the suckie.
But we're still talking a 'spiritual succesor' to CoH and CoH had a Healing set. Where do we draw the line on where we stop?
Also, there's a difference between 'you can't do that at launch because we haven't coded it yet' and 'you can't do that EVER because we don't think you should be able to.' Again, we're not talking 'I WIN' powers that never existed before...we're talking about sets that existed and were played. 'There will be no Permadom because it broke the game' is different from 'there will be no Healing because WE don't think you need it.'
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Because what you think is a spiritual successor is different from what other people consider a spiritual successor.
Everyone keeps throwing around the term spiritual successor. Well if spiritual successor meant only one thing, there why is there three games in the works calling themselves spiritual successors?
And again, if it's never coded in the first place, and left out forever, then no one is telling anyone how to play their game, as it's just not an option in how to play the game.
And you're talking sets that existed in CoH and will never exist like they did in CoH.
I'll never have my Stalker WP set again! Nevermind it almost fit my concept perfectly (damned game mechanics calling splitting defense into types/positional and typed just didn't feel agile when one thinks about the game mechanics of it :p).
And yes, we can say "Please never create this set"
Let's look at the shield set in CoH. Notice how it limited anyone who wanted a shield as part of their costume, to having to pick up that set?
Why limit it in such a way?
Could make it a Power Pool set
Tier 1) Defend Yourself (passive +Resist)
Tier 2) Phalanx Defense (passive +Resist to small AOE around you)
Tier 3) Shield Bash
Tier 4) Shield Throw
Tier 5) Shield Charge
Wow... big leap there. By your logic we could leave out PvP completely, avoid a LOT of headaches, make a few fans mad (because they're weren't a LOT of CoH PvPers) and simply coding by saying 'There will be no PvP.' We're not telling them not to PvP we're just telling them not to do it here.
Asking to not have a set developed just because it bothered you seems a bit self-centered.
As for shields, it's a totally different issue. I'm all FOR having new ways to have new powers outside the box. However taking a shield when you have no shield powers and no way to GET shield powers feels like a Blaster taking a sword for looks...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
[url=https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/p480x480/1476121_687701404581505_615879492_n.jpg]Ahem[/url] ...
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/p480x480/1476121_687701404581505_615879492_n.jpg[/img]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Exactly! So make ways for people to use the shield! Though, to note, in CO, I can make a totally ranged character with little arm shields (don't recall if there was a big arm shield I could carry about, but then I don't have many concepts that would use a shield).
Also, I didn't ask for it to not be made. I asked to make it something to be worked for (makes it rare...and players do like RARE) or Power Pool (this only makes it rare if people decide they only want a dedicated healer if it's in a powerset and opens up the ability to make it far more common than in CoH...which in CoH there were power pools that were quite common in use).
And the last thing I suggested, was making it a set for much much later release. We already know they have limited sets for release, so some sets will have to be put out for later release, so why not make Empathy a much later release set?
I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to wait for my Chained Kunai set if they ever decide to make it an option, but let's look at it from that perspective...if they can only make one set Empathy or Chained Kunai available at release which would I prefer they work on...well...Chained Kunai!
Not only is it something I want, it's different (and NEW) than anything else in any of the other Superhero MMOs.
With CoT saying they plan to have it so you pick the animation of your attacks...maybe one can have their blasts come from giant swords like that! Or your sword user can have a massive range attack of OMGNESS!
My sword shoots mind control.. dunno bout yours
Said facetiously.. don't limit peoples concept because it doesn't fit your lore. You end up with much fewer players.
Game first. Superheroes second (A very close second)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Why should this one powerset need to be so hard to get? Other than Incarnate stuff we didn't have to 'work' for any other sets in the game...so why THIS one?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Not strictly true. You had to earn epic archtypes and there were some powers you could only access by completing certain missions
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
It's because THIS power set doesn't fit into the whole grand illusion of the "genre" according to them. That's the only reason.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Powers...not Power SETS. Also, the Epic ATs were just that: EPIC ATs. Not powers, not sets but a whole new AT deemed so complicated they gated it at 50.
I don't see Empathy, changed to being Epic-worthy.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
"Everyone keeps throwing around the term spiritual successor. Well if spiritual successor meant only one thing, there why is there three {games} in the works calling themselves spiritual successors?"
Emphasis on {games}, we are not crafting a comic, or a movie. Like it or not healing is part and parcel of virtually every game that includes any form of combat that does not focus on one shot kills. I would prefer it not to be a central mechanic, but it has to be there. If the mechanic to remove hit points exists, the mechanic to replace them must also be present.
Regardless of how progression works in the future game (levels/gear/enhancements/whatever)the lower levels are going to need some form of healing more. Later other forms of mitigation will limit the necessity.
Argue the genre as much as you like, justify it however you wish. This is a GAME. HoT, Regen, spike heals, whatever you wish to call it. We must be able to replace lost hit points.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
You know what was hard to get? Staff Melee! I had to save up to buy it! Okay, no I didn't, but since some players seem to think 15 dollars a month is expensive, I'm sure someone had to.
You say, why should it be when it wasn't in another game. I say, why shouldn't it be just because it wasn't in another game?
What exactly is wrong with putting it on the bottom of the list? We all know we're not going to have every powerset that was in CoH available to us at start, which means some sets will have to be put at the bottom...so why not make it Empathy that's on the bottom to be made?
why not not?
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Um...player expectation maybe? Maybe I'm being silly but the 5000 people who just donated over 600k did so on the basis of what had been said about the game at that point. 'Spiritual Successor' was touted a LOT, almost as much as 'new and improved!' so there is a level of expectation. Sure, I'd like to sit down and have a council meeting on what sets we should launch with first but I don't think that's going to happen.
Many of the CoT players will be former CoH players. Many of the CoH players were 'casual' players. They LIKED the idea that they could raid and craft and find the l33t gear...but they didn't HAVE to. The fact that you could STILL hear cries for a Healer after 8 years of play means that some people wanted them around.
I think we would be better off giving the players what they want and expect than not. Can we rework Empathy? We should, beginning with the name.
How about this: Forget the Empathy set. Instead, we launch with Pain Domination. Swap out a power or two so it has more buffs and less Healing (even more than Empathy had) and go with that? Or better yet, make Empathy a SECONDARY set instead of a PRIMARY one? I have no problem with buffers...I just don't think it should be their MAIN thing. So make ALL of the buffing sets (including Healing) a secondary set. Maybe that will help break this mental thing that players have with 'Oh they have two or more Heals...must be a Healer.'
Based on its popularity before, and how much casual players like things to be...casual...I firmly believe that a set with some Healing should be available at launch or soon after. Personally I think that Healing rates low enough on the 'Shows up in comics' scale to be held until later but the deciding factor should be the PLAYERS. If the Devs launch a Poll during Alpha and a decent percentage want a Healing set at launch I think it's our duty to provide one.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I vote we put Chained Kunai at the very bottom of the list.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
As a CoHer who donated, I can't have my expectations?
The needs of the many... How many want something other than what you want? I wanted Masters at launch but didn't get them...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I wanted ranged/support at launch.... so I guess they love me more than you, Luvr! :P
___________________________________
[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'd actually argue that more people want more DPS options than Support Options at start. What were the popular ATs in CoH? Melee DPS!
Scrappers and Brutes! And if I recall correctly, Stalkers took a big rise in popularity once they reworked Assassin Strike.
But Scrappers and Brutes where the popular ATs...sooo...needs of the many, right?
To be honest, I supported the idea of making Buffing a Secondary only. Players liked the buffers but why can't buffing be a Secondary? Out of the hundreds of comics characters how many could you say have buffing as the MAIN thing they do? Invisible Woman and...who else?
As for Scrappers and Brutes...I loved them. But once they merged the two sides IMHO Scrappers became redundant. I liked the mechanics for Brutes better so why not go with those?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Really? I liked the mechanics of Scrappers better.
Telekinetics often "buff" with TK bubble shields. Lots of debuffers.
I mostly saw controllers, but that may have been the company I was keeping.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
If I'm recalling the numbers given...after making it so any AT could go on either side...they said Brutes where #1 and Scrappers #2 on the popularity, I forget where the rest stood.
Hi, just registered.
I hope this long, crazy thread is still being skimmed for ideas, because I have at least two crazy ones of my own that I want to put out there. I also had a third. Let's hope I recall it by the time I get done writing.
1
This idea is attractive because it's simple. Assuming any generic click/aoe heals that exist are available in the low levels, have their efficacy scale at a lower rate than the other mitigation tools of support classes. They will still be useful as the character levels up, but at least some players who are paying attention will notice the relative effectiveness, overall, of other tools compared to direct healing. This way the "demand" for "healers" can be... tolerable(?) as healing tapers off.
Devil's advocate: In most good ARPGs with a skill-tree system, as-of-late, your character's early abilities are still potent throughout his "career".
2
What if instead of not having an empathy-style set, we take it to a different extreme? Let's make a set that is less buffing and "moar healz". [i]What?[/i] I know, right? The idea here is twofold. First, it's a balancing act of support tools within a set. For example Forcefields had a fairly even mix of ally protection and npc crowd control (KB, etc.), while Kinetics was heavily team-effectiveness buffing and enemy-weakening, with a little healing and KB. Second, with the given set arguably filling the definitive "healing set" role once-and-for-all, then we can "put our money where our mouth is" and see if it really is the heals that make a green-number set so great, not the less obvious buffs. And then the playerbase's "perception" of healing can self-correct (if needed) more naturally. Not sure if I'm sufficiently describing my thinking here. Maybe some of you will get what I'm saying.
[i]As an example, take Empathy, attach a minor HoT to Clear Mind. Replace Fortitude (*feints*) with an attack and/or mez-style power like (in no particular order) Fearsome Stare, Repulsion Bomb, Distortion Field (time manip), Caltrops, Snow Storm, or Thunder Clap. Replace the final tier with a mass rez (including self), full heal, capped regen for 30 seconds -- the heal/regen applies to everyone, rezzed or not. (Any unmentioned powers stay mostly intact.)[/i]
3
This is an idea I really like. Ok so we all know that the heals in CoH had high visibility compared to every other form of mitigation due to shiny green numbers. Many a debuffer has been working his ass off and seen some less-than-competent aurocker (Can we canonize that word?) get complimented for saving the team with the heals. Now, especially if HoT/regen buffing becomes the standard in lieu of spike heals, let's add some visibility to the players' health bar HUD. There're various assthetics that could be applied here, but natural server-ticks for regen could have a slight glow to it. Also, when under an externally applied regen/HoT buff the whole bar could "pulse", or have a left-to-right shimmer, or maybe even have green numbers right on/in the bar itself including "regular" heals. (I don't think these effects would be desired for auto/passive powers and self toggles that are in constant use, i.e. Regen Scrapper.)
I think that's all of it for now. If it's not obvious, 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive, and 3 is universal. Looking forward to further discussion.
disclaimer: Seeing some of the convos above, please don't take any proposals here as an attack on your idea or opinion. Since I'm new I felt the safe route was to keep any direct opinions I may have separate from my proposals, but I can't guarantee that. :-D But I have thick skin. Been screamed at by wife, drill sergeants, small children, mimes, etc. You're more than welcome to tell me what you don't like about my ideas.
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