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After critically thinking about how it was and looking back at the math, I think the only thing I didn't like about HOW healing was implemented was the amount of healing done by single target and aoe heals.
I think if aoe heals are handled the same way that aoe damage attacks (which is hopefully something similar to what I last remember Redlynne suggested in the aoe balancing thread) then that should fix that part of the problem and I'll store that off to the side.
ST and AOE heals in general I think did too much and was compounded with how much +regeneration could be granted to non-regen players. There was quite the benefit to healing powers (not just the Empathy set or pain domination) but there was no real consequence. Sure there was a pace that this was limited by endurance costs and recharge times, but this was easily overcome by auras and procs and temporary buffs of +regeneration given to non-regen players.
I say and litter about non-regen players because I truly believe that regen as a defense set SHOULD have some incredible regeneration speeds. However, something that was lacking as a mechanic was -regen. Lingering Radiation is the only power I found that even mentions -regen. Maybe that's all we need for some proper balancing is powers that have a -regen, or the ability for -regen to go negative (coh had it clamped at 0%)... Healing was fun, but it was too easy.
My boyfriend plays healers, his trinity side is healer. I want him to have something that he can play in this game and enjoy. So please, let's not take away healing. Secondly, there are at least 20 different superheroes that have some form of healing factor as one of their powers, including one mutant that has been in SIX DIFFERENT MOVIES!!! So I find it laughable if you think healing in superhero mmos is some cleric-throwback everquesting nonsense because fast healing has been in comics since comics have been comics!
Ranting aside, sorry, I want healing to be there, and I want it to be a challenge, and most importantly I want to see it hold a balance between not needed and valued by good teams.
Honestly, I think no matter how the game roles play out, there will always be people that come onto CoT that expect it to be a trinity game because there are tankers melee and ranged dps, they'll expect healers regardless of what the main game actually has. I don't think that gives anyone grounds to vilify those "healers" or "players that like to heal" just because their presence threatens to waft up undertones of a trinity of roles that can't be broken.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
This thread kind of surprises me. It seemed to me that a heavy-healing set in CoX, like Empathy, was only considered a must-have by a certain segment of the playing population, while the rest of the game was more about buffs and debuffs. The latter group certainly felt that Empathy had some nice ST buffs, but in general it was a less game-changing set than more-dedicated (and more AoE-y) buff sets like Kinetics or debuff sets like Rad, say. From my perspective, that was an MMO sweet spot, since it meant that folks who wanted to play with a heavy-healer could have that, and folks who didn't could have their deal, too. IOW, for me, it was part of that thing that made CoH speshul: like how you could play holy trinity if you wanted, but you didn't have to if that wasn't of interest to you. If folks who are in one group or another end up designing support for the other group out of CoT, I don't think that is an improvement.
When we talk about "spiritual successor", I don't think of it in terms of specific mechanics so much as how broad a segment of the CoH playerbase a given gameplay-deviation-from-CoH is likely to turn off. Whether costume editing is limited to particular vendors, or if it is something that can be done through the game UI at any location, is a change that will have noticeable game/theme impact, but is unlikely to be a play-or-not-play dealbreaker for [m?]any folks. Changing the mechanics to make sure we don't have something akin to the Empathy set, on the other hand, seems like it would be a dealbreaker for enough folks that this thread has gotten kind of impassioned. And what would we get in return for that trade? I already didn't feel at all forced to play with heal-focused teams in CoH, and I certainly never was forced to run a heal-focused team, so it isn't like this was such a problem that I could say it was worth such a trade.
As for whether it is a silver-age theme or not, I think Winter hit a lot of the thoughts I have on that. I think we always have to be willing to stop and think about things in terms of genre when there is a choice to be made, but we have to do that with the expectation that: a) we are only going to be able to approximate that, since CoT has to end up supporting gameplay styles that are interesting to gamers, and (as Winter pointed out) games are not managed like stories; and b) since it is a perception question, people are going to be very tempted to just use the argument to justify some game decision they happen to want.
If you wanted to talk about things in CoH that seemed like perceived-must-haves for various parts of the content, I'd think you'd get to discussing how buffs or debuffs stacked w/o diminishing returns way before you'd ever get to healing. Or were those things somehow more a staple of silver-age comics and I just never noticed?
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Most of us haven't said anything about not having a Regeneration Defense Set. This was purely on the Healing Power Set side of things. And there were specifically ideas set for on how to go about making one a healer if they want to play a healer. One doesn't need a dedicate powerset to be a healer in fact with the suggested idea being to put it into a power pool.
Power 1: Grant Target +Regen
Power 2: Heal ST for +## of Health
Power 3: Grant Target +Mez Protection
Power 4: PBAOE Heal that targets all but caster for +## Health
Pick up Power Pool (will mention again, we have no idea how their trinity power set will work) and become a Healer on any AT you want!
lol :D
I knew when I was saying it I was likely the first but I wanted to bring up some points in conjunction to how +regen was handled. Regen as a defense set that strong should feel powerful, and I felt especially with the number of nerfs and tweaks and such that it was often the unjustified victim of "healing tweaks" because the baseline +regen buffs just further broke their own values...
I wanted to draw attention that in my perspective I saw +regen and +heal were connected in causing the problems others perceive that made healing so overpowered. Knowing that I would be saying a lot involving anti-regen, I wanted to take a moment to defend the regen defense set idea because I think it's a good one and I had lots of fun on mine up to the end.
I think the idea of a healing power pool would be really fun, even CoH had that in the medicine pool. It could allow for more freedom of the buff sets to not take healing powers unless they want them, and puts a challenge onto general healing that could make it valued, but gameplay balanced if it isn't needed.
Now I have an idea for a new buff/debuff set I need to go suggest!
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Honestly we'd likely be able to ensure people knew healing wasn't 100% required but just an option like buffing/debuffing/crowd control was tutorials that tought people that concept and the mechanics of it. But likewise I think from what i'd seen that yes, a core of the "defender is the healer class and should only have done that" was due to empathy being mislabeled the "healer" set due to it having to many heals(a few redundant in the right hands). I'd rather sets be more focused on buffs with no one set having more than one heal with some sets missing a heal would be ok depending on the characteristics of it. Most people agreed kinetics was not a healer set even though it's one heal was more effective, overall, than empathys healing aura.
Thing was that yeah, people often disregarded everything but healing because they didn't understand it, there was a rather snide joke I knew from someone that was basically "if it doesn't produce green numbers people don't understand it". The worst part was it was true, in fact some people even considered the weakest heals more powerful than the mightiest force field, which was very stupid but they thought that.
Thing was it was because tutorials did not teach people that healing was the last line of defense behind everything else, another layer of support you used, not the only thing to support like other mmorpgs. There were no demonstrations of the effectiveness of force fields or storm summoning specifically making sure people saw it. There were no demonstrations of crowd control in the tutorial, just the rawest basics which wasn't enough. So we had alot of newbies entering who didn't always catch the way the game was played, assumed healing was the sole thing determining who lived and died, rolled the aura rocker who never used any of empathies buffs, then wondered why some people wouldn't take them and all their teams sucked, felt the game was to hard and left when in reality, cox was easy.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
And this is why "too much choice" is sometimes a *bad* thing.
and of course, depending on the number of powersets/unique stuff that you have to show, you would almost have to tailor the tutorial to make sure that ALL of the major stuff gets shown.
And yes, this would also include the differences between "Defence" tanking, "resistance tanking", and "regen tanking" (as it were).
At the end of CoH, Regen was overnerfed compared to other sets, at least from a PvE standpoint and not some 1 on 1 Rock, Paper, Scissor PvP standpoint.
Often I would ask how to improve my /Regen Scrapper, and the answer was always Katana/. :p
We're definitely in agreement there!! I had a lot of fun on my spines/regen, but you know all too well how horrible and gimpy he was, but... it still fit the theme perfectly. Oh nostalgia, how rose-colored your spectacles are... :D
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
This is nice, but can we Also have the 'full Empathy' powerset? Power Pools have never performed at the same level as a Primary set.
Be Well!
Fireheart
My hope, is that power pools aren't gimpy like they were in CoH. I hated the fact that they made the power pool attacks so weak, that you had to sacrifice effectiveness for concept. That Epic Fire Ball in my Epic Power Pool? Yeah...pretty and fit the concept! Want to solo that AV, better not use that attack or I'll never have enough DPS to take on the AV!
Also hoping that with the whole "choose your animation" CoT has planned, that I won't have to go "Why can't my power pool attack look epic like that exact same attack in powerset?"
That would certainly be nice. And I'd still like to have a full powerset dedicated to supporting my friends and teammates, with strong effects. One issue I have with Empathy is that it Doesn't affect the Player Character. I'd choose a different limitation, having it only affect the originator if the power Also affects another. A sort of 'reflective buff'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
That still semi screws up the player by making half the abilities useless if you are solo. Personally speaking, I am of the feeling that If you can buff *another* player with something, then you should be able to use it on yourself (exceptions being "resurrection" powers... quite understandably though in this case, exceptions can be coded for it to still be usable on yourself if dead (like Rise of the Phoenix) ).
Quite right. But, if the design of the powerset requires that you cannot target yourself with your strongest heals/powers, then 'reflection' was the only method I could come up with, for a 'return' effect.
The best solution is still for all AoE buffing powers to include 'Self' as a target..
Be Well!
Fireheart
Fire... lets consider a buff set that maintained "most" of what Empathy did, but "gave" some of it's heal powers to this new powerpool, and recieved other buffs instead (ymmv, just making stuff up to show the idea)
Dull Pain
(Ally +Resistance)
Refresh
(Ally +End)
Absorb Pain
(Ally Heal, Self Moderate Damage (Special).. less powerful than it used to be, more powerful than non-power pool alternatives)
Resurrect
Clear Mind
(Ally Resist Disorientation, Hold, Sleep, Immobilization, Fear, Confusion, +Perception)
Fortitude
(Ally +Defense (All), +Damage, +Accuracy)
RecoveryAura
(PBAoE, Ally +Recovery)
RegenerationAura
(PBAoE, Ally +Regeneration)
AdrenalinBoost
(Ranged, Ally +Endurance, +Regeneration, +Recharge, Resist Slow)
Nearly identical, but no longer a "healing" set.... more like a "physical buff" set.
Then we have a powerpool that contains more direct healing powers for those who want to be a "healer"
In this way, we have several buff or d/buff sets that provide various benifits to players without any of them being "THE HEALING SET".... this de-emphasizes the whole concept of defender=healer and that there even are "healers" as a primary function of any team. Healing is just "one other form of mitigation that enables buffs and debuffs to function better"
....meanwhile, those who WANT to play the role of "the healer" still have the choice, without ever feeling like they "have to". It's a personal choice, rather than some perceived teaming necessity.
"Oh sweet, a healer" instead of "You aren't a healer? WTF?" or... worse "You're healing wrong!"
I agree with X that Powerpools, apart from transports, were moderately pointless fluff in COX, and I REALLY REALLY hope they change that, in CoT..
I would LOVE to see them function as sort of a "prestige class" (ala old 3rd edition DnD) wherin you sacrifice something in order to become either more specialized, or more diversified than your class (archtype) would normally allow.....
to that end, they should function sort of as "replacers" for powers in your normal growth (not literally replacing powers in your standard progression, but be on par with powers they would unlock along-side..... so even if it's a "fireball"... it's not the level 2 fireball from fireblast... it's a level 6, or 10, or 24 fireball.. or whatever.)
and yes, this is a pretty off-the-cuff suggestion, so consider the "idea" more than any numbers I may have used.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
and, actually, you're right.. it would be a "quirk" of the set, if Empathy 2.0 had a self heal, unlike (pretty sure) any/most of the other buff sets... so maybe instead of a "super heal, heavy cost" power like Absorb Pain functioning for "allies".....
Maybe it works for the character...
something like "Heal self strong, -max End for X Time"
(that might not actually work very well, but SOMETHING along those lines... of being able to keep yourself standing, but hindering you in other ways... or just cost a lot..... so that this particular buff set expects you to keep yourself standing (and mostly out of the fray) while buffing your allies.... sort of like how Bubbles had the personal forcefield that you could sit in and stay alive, but couldn't really do much, while in it....)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I think every player should notice a HUGE boost in performance when grouping (Even with only one other player). Even if your DPS you should feel the weight of your choice when soloing.
DPS players should get used to losing health.
Tanks should get used to losing damage (and mobility?)
Buffers should get used to needing something to buff.
Debuffers should get used to dying quick and doing little damage
Petmasters should get used to (me screaming at them for their server load.. <-- kidding) having very low energy
But put any two of those together -ANY two even when they're the same role- and everything SHOULD feel much more engaging. I hypothesize that even soloers will appreciate the additional challenge.
- -
There are simply more ways to thematically "heal" an ally besides adding HP to them. I hope more of the alternatives are chosen so refreshing HP isn't the only viable option.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Never understood why Debuffers should just get used to dying :-/
I've always felt like Debuffers got a bum rap, by getting tied into the buff sets. Debuffing is a cool and powerful element, striding the line between mezz and buff (buffing your allies abilities by hindering opponents, essentially)
I really wanted to see the Corruptor (before it became an "offender") be a melee set..... basically be what they made the Dominators into, but with debuffs instead of control....
I donno... I always felt like Debuffs should function as an alternate version of tanking... manipulating opponants and staying alive, but not being great at dishing damage.
...I know, totally seperate topic, but i LOVE the underlying concept of debuffs, and never quite got my fix on them in COX
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
How about if we think about a 'Healing' primary more as a Buff Health set rather than the was it was done before (fill Health to max)? So one idea might be:
1 ST Heal Other. If no target is selected, caster heals himself for half value.
1 PBAoE Heal. Equal affect to everyone in the radius including the caster.
1 Max Health Buff for other that also incorporates a mild Heal. If no target caster gets half the effect.
1 PBAoE Regen Buff (just like Regen Aura)
1 PBAoE Recovery Buff (just like Recovery Aura)
1 PBAoE version of Clear Mind but to lesser degree (will resist one layer of Mez from a Boss but multiple applications can still overwrite it)
1 ST Fortitude. If no target, caster receives half the effect.
1 ST Resurrect (this one will NOT work on the caster...he has to take a different power for that)
Now something like this makes the Empath a boon to the team for all the same reasons as before i.e. Resurrect, lots of Area Buffs etc. However solo the set is far from useless. The caster can heal himself (the ST would be more efficient than the PBAoE for himself), buff himself and even give himself a little Status Protection (something Clear Mind didn't do before). Two of the powers are actual Heals, several are ST buffs and the Aura buffs are just as good as ever. The Status Protection means the caster won't suffer the inglorious fate of Clear Minding the rest of the team and then being mezzed himself. Some of the powers are designed to work on others but give half their benefit to the caster (to prevent the AT from being WAY OP). He would be handy to have on any team.
So...whaddaya think?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Meet me at the Roles forum for further analysis on role parity?
Tanks primary objective is threat (not survivability) in my honest opinion. Being able to "survive" that threat is a secondary mechanic.
For this reason, debuffers are not tanks as the do not share the primary objective.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
To me, threat is just a mechanic of the "mezz" tree, the "status" is "paying attention to the tank"
the distinction, is that not ONLY can a tank "mezz" mass groups of enemy and prevent them from attack his/her team.....but he can survive that attention.... because of his toughness.(however that is applied in the game)
a debuffer functions in a similar light... and could function even more like them, if given a tweak or two (and not "more health and a taunt" :P)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
...if I said "too many heals".... would you get mad? :P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Tanks often had de-buffs as part of their arsenal. Usually it was an aura effect and generated extra taunt/threat/aggro, as well. Dark/Dark Tanks (and Scrappers!) had a huge arsenal of de-buffs.
Be Well!
Fireheart
The problem that Regen had is that it was fundamentally unbalanced against other types of defenses. Defense: You are attacked, and your Defense either makes the attacker miss, so you take 0 damage, or he doesn't, and you take full damage. Resistance: You are attacked, and if you're hit, your Resistance removes some fraction of the damage and you take the rest. Regen: You are attacked, and if you're hit, you take all the damage, then with your hyperactive healing rate you heal back some of it... then heal back more of it... then more of it... again and again until you've healed [b]all[/b] of the damage from that hit. None of the other defenses get to be applied to the attack again and again and again, with the only limitation being that you have to survive receiving the hit in the first place.
Instant Healing was the worst offender in the set; it provided a massive healing-rate boost (at a similarly massive End cost), so that playing a /Regen Scrapper became a matter of learning how [i]big[/i] a group of opponents you could jump into, watching your hit points nose-diving, and have a reasonable expectation of reducing the incoming damage rate below your healing rate before you ran out of hit points. And the perception was that, at the end of a fight, the Regen Scrapper was standing there uninjured with a pile of defeated mobs around him... but what they [i]didn't[/i] see was the point fifteen to thirty seconds into the fight when the Regen Scrapper was at 10% HP and sweating to drop one more mob before the damage caught up with him; the critical point of a fight for a Regen scrapper comes much earlier in the fight than it does for any other defensive powerset.
So Regen got nerfed. First the healing rate bonus was reduced. This just moved the goalpost; you still had to learn how big a spawn you could survive long enough to pull ahead of. Then the healing rate was split across Integration and Instant Healing, and part of it was made unenhanceable; the goalpost moved again, but it was still pretty much the same. Then it was hit again, and Instant Healing became a click power, because it was "never intended" that the players would expend the slotting to make it possible to keep Instant Healing running as a toggle.
But none of this changed the fundamental problem with Regen -- that your healing rate boost applies to the hit you got five minutes ago just as much as it applies to the hit you got five seconds ago. I tried to convince the devs that what was needed wasn't repeated alterations of [b]degree[/b], but an alteration in [b]kind[/b] -- to take Instant Healing and change it to make it [i]genuinely[/i] 'instant' healing: essentially, have it make each hit you take act like Spectral Wounds -- you take all the damage, then, after a short time, an enhanceable fraction of the damage "instantly" heals back. IH's healing would only be applied to any given attack [i]once[/i], which makes it comparable to -- and balanceable against -- both Defense and Resistance. Unfortunately, this appeared to be too big an alteration to the concept of the powerset for the devs to be willing to retrofit it years into the game.
One of the things I did while investigating this was to set up a simulation of a hero with a given HP value and damage output matched against a number of opponents, each with a given HP value and damage output, and ran a large number of simulations with the hero having a) Defense, b) Resistance, c) Regeneration, or various combinations. Each of them [b]individually[/b] were comparable in overall survivability, and a combination of Defense and Resistance was also comparable. However, adding even small amounts of Defense or Resistance or both to a character with Regen's healing rate increased their survivability out of all proportion to the actual magnitude of the Defense or Resistance given to the hero, because both of them reduced the incoming damage, allowing the healing rate to recover 'old' damage instead of healing 'new' damage. It was this simulation that convinced me that the [i]form[/i] of Instant Healing, not just its magnitude or availability, needed to change for the powerset to become balanceable.
I *believe* (I could well be wrong) that most of the AOE "buff" stuff actually did affect the caster anyway.
Which would be fine, but when you look at the *empath* stuff that they could use on themselves, it was ALL aura. One heal, one recovery, one regen. That was it.
But you also have to remember that when the game came out, teaming was "more essential" (as it were), than later on in the games life.
Lets have a look at *how bad* heal aura was compared to the other heals in the Empathy set:
(stats for level 50 in terms of healing amount)
Healing Aura : +117.8 HP, 8 Second Recharge, 13 End
Heal Other: +230.89 HP, 4 Second Recharge, 12 End
Absorb Pain: +588.99HP, 15 Second Recharge, 0.52 End. *SPECIAL* Caster takes 91.76 Damage (unresistable), -100% to Regeneration (20 Seconds), +100% Resistance (Heal) for 20 Seconds.
The thing is, is that I could only use my *weakest* heal on me.
Personally speaking, even if you limited it to "Absorb pain" as being the *only* one that I could use on myself, it would be *useful* because I have to make sure that I can survive for the next 20 seconds, because I sure as hell *cannot* be healed after I have cast it.
SO... then how about this "Empathy 2.0" (not to be named Empathy, as power sets in Titans will be divested from Visual queues):
power 1:
ST (Ally), +End
power 2:
PbAOE (Ally): +Damage Resistance
power 3:
ST (Self): ++Health (Special), -max end. (Special: Strong Heal,+regen, lock out other healing effects for duration)
Power 4:
ST (Ally): Revive KO'd Ally
Power 5:
ST (Ally): +Resist (Disorientation, Hold, Sleep, Immobilization, Fear, Confusion), +Perception
Power 6:
ST (Ally) +defense(all), +damage, +acc
Power 7:
PbAOE (Ally) +Recovery
Power 8:
PbAOE (Ally) +regen
Decidedly NOT a "healer" set... but very much in keeping with the traditional Empathy set.
It is, though, a very "active" buff set, as you'd be constantly looking for who would best benefit by which buffs.
the Second power I see sort of functioning like O2 boost (ally+self), but with a + DR, instead of heal/status resist... And we could even make 7 and 8 toggles, to make them feel more "top tier".... sort of like the leadership pool of old, but with recov/regen
In this way, the set becomes about "protecting ally's stamina" (where stamina means staying on your feet and being able to continue the fight... both HP and END)
...almost Bard-like, to use a fantasy reference, encouraging badassness, rather than just "healing"
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
(keeping in mind that the above idea presupposes that there will be a "healing" power pool that will enable players who which to play healers, to have that option.)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Alright, but why are we (re)creating another 'healing' powerset, which then needs to resort to a Power Pool in order to do the job? That was kinda the whole point of the 'powerset-formerly-known-as-Empathy'. It was a full-on 'healing' set. I don't see the point of not having one.
Be Well!
Fireheart
we arent.
This is clearly not a "healing" set.... it has only one team healing power (a PbAOE at level 8).....
It is, in point of fact... JUST a "buff" set.... just like every other buff set in COX... where it combines beneifits together to make teammates more effective.
What we ARE doing (in this suggestion) is getting rid of an "healing set" from the buff/debuff set category.... while still providing powers that would make ANY set a "healing" set, through a simple powerpool, to any player who still wished to persue that playstyle.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
(where, her e"just like every other buff set" does not imply a generic-ing of buff sets, but rather bringing empathy in line with other buff sets and out of the "healer" category)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Not mad but curious. Two Heals, one Health Max buff and a Regen buff is too many?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I think you're deliberately misunderstanding my point. Why 'downgrade' the purpose-built 'healing' Primary powerset and say that anyone who wants to do 'healing' can just use a 'Power Pool' that has been purpose-built for 'healing'?
What is the purpose of removing 'healing' from one set and putting it in another? The people who demand a 'Healzor' in their team will just demand the new set, instead.
I don't see the advantage.
Be Well!
Fireheart
compared to the other buff/debuff sets that have.... one, each...maybe? (forgiving Thermal (which was specifically designed due to complaints about a villain side lack of a "healing set")... and I guess Pain? (I must have been on Champions by then, I never played with Pain))
in my "counter offer" above... you notice i swapped out the two initial heals, and suddenly it looks like a solid buff set, not a "healing" set, despite having a big self heal and a strong PbAOE to cap it off.
I think my "ideal" situation would be to have all the buff/debuff sets be equivocal in terms of "healing powers" (one or two, each, max) of different flavors to keep things interesting, so that no one set is ever held up as "the healing set" (and by extension, no AT is held up as 'the Healing AT")..
while I have never liked the idea of point-heals in genre (as Ive said, I believe them to be thematically antithetical)... in COX, and to a lesser degree, Champs, I have too often felt the burdon of the rhetorical construct of "The Healer" influence those around me in the community. Whether it be a conditioned response to "need a healer" or to expect the person who has "empathy" or is in the "support role" (big "cross" emblems all around) to keep up the heals.... or just the attitude that heals define the AT or even powerset.
... it isn't right, or fair.
I would much rather see Buffs be Buffs.... and have the primary "healing" powers be available in a power pool (and power pools be viable, robust, alternatives to standard power choices) so that IF someone wishes to be a healer, they most certainly CAN be
.... but that NO one is "expected" to be.
I truly feel that any disparity in the ratio of healing powers in the standard buff sets will maintain and reinforce these "bad habits" among players and, since it is a simple enough matter to provide anyone who wants to be a healer the means of doing so WITHOUT tying such a...stigma... to any powerset or AT......
...why not do that?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Agreed... I dont think that it has "too many heals" in it. Sure, it has two there (one AOE, and one single target), so you have general usability there... the +Max HP is something that was never really done in CoX (makes the resistance orientated characters more "uber", and the "defence" orientated characters have more of a buffer), and the regen/recovery buffs are just like in CoX.
The fact that the Single Target buffs *can* be utilised on the caster is nice, and *personally* I feel that with few exceptions (because there are always exceptions), that stuff that can be cast on other players *should* be able to be self-cast as well...
Just gonna throw in this last little bit then I'm back out of this convo and won't mention anything anymore ever again.
If you make healing a power pool set.
What's to stop people from asking, "Do you have the Healing Power Pool??", "No." /e BOOTFROMTEAM
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Fire, I basically responded in the previous post, but to clarify.
having Empathy be a purpose built healing set, means that Empaths are stuck with the "stigma" of being a healer... and Defenders are likewise presumed to be "healers"... reguardless of their actual desire or intent
(Rationally, no one would call a Storm Summoner a "Healer"...and yet I am sure everyone who's played one has had to deal with explaining that just because they're a defender, doesnt mean they're a "healer"....heck, I had to do it from 0-50, on mine.)
by seperating the FEW powers that turned empathy FROM "a buff set" into "THE healing set".... it helps to eliminate any bias, stigma, and unintended ignorance to hamper anyone's experience... while still allowing those who DO want to play "the healer" to play it... no matter what Archetype they choose.
it maintains the notion of allowing the player to choose who and how they want to play, and helps to minimize community "peer pressure" to play a certain AT or Powerset a Certain way... particularly in reference to "healing" which, as many have said on this thread, was not intended to be a dominant force in the game in the first place.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
firstly, since it's not tied to any archetype.... who do you ask?
everyone?
you'd be doing a lot of solo play...
but secondly, and more importantly.... You'd likely have played 6-10 levels of the game without hadly SEEING a solid, single-target heal, and done just fine. The draw of "healing" would be lessened naturally. it would still be COOL to have a healer... but the notion that a dedicated healer was "necessary" would be proven wrong by then.
by making it a powerpool, it provides the ability to any player, and any AT, that wants it.... de-stigmatizing any particular AT (so you're not going to get booted for being a "defender" who cant heal.... defenders are awesome, and, oh cool, this one can also heal)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Good luck with that.
And I now leave you to destroy my beloved AT.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Archetype?
how? by giving one (three, if we look at thermal and pain, eventually) set two new buffs, and making a whole power pool that appeals to your desire to be a healer?
keep in mind, static, that EVERY OTHER (barring the two, or three(is Pain a heal set? i should really look it up)) Buff/Debuff set functions similarly to how i've suggested restructuring Empathy.
if anything, I'm maintaining a status quo in your beloved AT.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Of course you are. You are correct. As always.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
So, you're saying that the reason for taking 'healing' powers out is 'social stuff'?
Because I don't see Empathy as a 'stigma', and anyone who extends that 'stigma' to all Defenders is clearly not willing to understand what Defenders do. It sounds to me like this argument is, 'Let's change the game because some people are stupid' and 'stupid people are so... powerful, that we can't just ignore them'.
Frankly, I think that whole class of powersets, what we might loosely group under Buff/De-buff sets, should follow a wide array of layouts. Still, I absolutely want to be able to choose a 'healing' power as my first one. Between re-designing the Buff/De-Buff sets and moving all of the 'serious healing' powers to a Power-Pool, you're basically saying that no-one can 'buff hit-points' until they reach level 6.
Was that your intention?
Be Well!
Fireheart
hah, I'm not always right..... but I'm not often wrong.
At the end of the day, I'm merely trying to find a common path to appease all parties at least some of the way. Making it so that no archetype is viewed as "the healing archtype", while still allowing any player to be a healer, if that is their desire, seems to me to be the most viable compromise.
we haven't eliminated "healing" from the game, as some have proposed... we haven't even "nerfed" it, as the OP asked.
this doesnt change how healing functions in the game, or even the types of healing one can acquire.
It actually increases the healing potential a character could have, as you could potentially acquire five total healing powers of various types (four in the power pool plus the usual "at least one" that occurs in buff/debuff sets)
At the same time, having the majority of heals in a power pool, compels new players to experience the game with minimal healing, but solid buff/debuff for a few levels, thus minimizing the compulsion to believe they "need" healing to be effective in the game while at the same time disentangling the notion of "healing" from any particular AT.... preventing the stigmatizing effect of community pressure while also allowing more diversity for characters of other types (skip the taunt on your tank, and become a melee healer? SURE, go for it! be a true paladin with lay of hands and a sword-and-shield! why not?)
Other than a little theorycrafting, those who liked being a healer and liked empathy in Cox lose very little and gain a lot more diversity (now you can turn Radiation into "the heal set" if you like, or darkness or anything else)
and
the opposition gains what they seem most to desire, a diffusion or even elimination of the "sense" in a sizable portion of the community that healing "needed and necessary".... while also making healing on the whole exclusive to those who want to play a healer specifically, rather than (through the generalized stigma of "defender=healer" or legitimate claim "empath=healer") anyone who chooses a particular AT/Powerset , thus making the whole concept of healing potentially rarer (bringing it more closely in line with genre norms)
Both sides get most of what they want, neither side gets everything.... compromise, sure... but a GOOD one, i think. Small changes that don't impinge too much on the conservative view, and enough change to provide for the liberal one.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Can there be a set of +resistance and +defence stuff in a power pool, of equal strength compared to the other buffs as well (if need be, spread across relevent power pools).
Makes sense as an extension...
"... in COX, and to a lesser degree, Champs, I have too often felt the burdon of the rhetorical construct of "The Healer" influence those around me in the community. Whether it be a conditioned response to "need a healer" or to expect the person who has "empathy" or is in the "support role" (big "cross" emblems all around) to keep up the heals.... or just the attitude that heals define the AT or even powerset.
... it isn't right, or fair."
This is so far outside the realm of response as to rate quoting. I refuse to get philosophical about a 'rhetorical construct' (what IS that anyway?), its 'burden', conditioned response within a community that doesn't EXIST YET or the idea that 'heals define an AT or even powerset.' The majority of the post can be boiled down to 'I think that if we don't have EXACTLY the same amount of 'Healing' in every set that has it then the set with the extra Healing will be perceived as the 'Healing Set' and that's wrong.
Um...why? Why do you so firmly believe that the difference of one power would suddenly skew the entire playerbase (that doesn't exist yet...) to think of a single set as THE Healing set? And, by the way, without all of the psychological verbiage, why would anyone thinking of a single set as being THE Healing set be a bad thing? Just because THEY feel that way doesn't make it true. Hell, some people thought Assault Rifle was effective for Blasters...
Remember the heady days when SOME players felt that they HAD to have a Kin in their team all the time? Yeah...that changed eventually. How about a Rad for debuffing the big boss/monster? Yeah...those tapered off too. How many times did you REALLY read calls for a 'Healer' towards the last years of CoX? I played a LOT and they were pretty few.
Just because a few players think something doesn't make it true. I'm sorry that you apparently suffered some slings and arrows in the past for some reason but please don't judge the entire community for it.
Nothing steams me quite as fast as one person speaking for the whole community...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
No. What you are doing and not realizing it. Is making every power set in the AT pretty much exactly identical and then throwing a Power Pool set for everybody to use. Pretty much destroying the AT. There was a reason Radiation was so DeBuff heavy, Force Field was so Buff heavy. Each power set was unique to it's own design. What you are proposing is making them all pretty much the same and therefore have no identity from any other set, almost. What's the advantage to taking one set over another if they are all basically the same?
And I'm sorry. I said I would stop responding. So I will. You in your infinite wisdom surely know better than I and I will leave you to it.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
like "casted"?
I mean, defenses are already kinda... that.
And while, honestly, I'm totally down with the idea of having the power pool concept be a means of diversifying your character's core functionality (a pool for defenses, a pool for controls, a pool for melee damage, a pool for ranged damage, healing, buffs/debuffs)......
I'm not certain that's what the devs have in mind.
The only reason I've latched onto the idea for healing in particular is because it works as a compromise, and there's precedent in the medicine pool (all we'd really be doing is making the medicine pool suck less :P)
but, yeah, if I had my druthers, i'd say the power pools act as a means of diversification.. of "free-forming" a little bit, in a system that doesn't generally allow that sort of thing. Would probably be a pain to balance though :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
um...no.
Sorry. removing two direct heals from Empath and giving it two powers that fit with all its other powers is in no way altering it's "niche"
as we've said many times over the course of this thread, Empathy was a solid Buff set. it's "deal" was not healing, it just got pidgeon-holed into the frame of "the healer" because it had more heals than everything else.
The reality is (as has also been expressed in this thread) is that Buffs and Control are far more important in the combat design of CoX than healing ever was.
I'm not Gen-ing ALL buff sets by removing two heals from Empathy.... i'm not even Gen-ing Empathy. the list I suggested maintains everything that made empathy empathy EXCEPT the heals (and I gave it a "mass toughness" and single target "endurance heal", BOTH in keeping with the other buffs in Empathy, to replace them)
I'm sorry, Static. In this line of reasoning, you are wrong.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Actually...never saw that in CoH. Where the Empathy player was never asked "Oh hey! You have the Healing Power Pool?"
In fact, when Empaths did have it, I saw them get laughed at more than anything.
Sorry, but I'm done trying to argue with you Brand X and Ghost Hack. You'll have to find somebody else to troll.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I thought it was /you/ who was trolling :o Since, ya know, I wasn't.
easy to two.....
I think everyone on this thread is a little guilty of baiting the other guy, either through argument or smarmy/snarky/sarcastic comments.
that said, Static... I haven't been tolling you in any of these recent comments. I may disagree with some of your suppositions or lines of reasoning, but my responses have, in general, been an attempt to defend my suggested compromise from you, not bait you into further discussion.
I don't wish to aggravate ANYONE here, and do try to form my arguments intelligently, though I think we all have a tendency to fly off half-cocked from time to time.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Never said you were trolling me, but Brand's last statement was. IMO
I just said I was done trying to argue with you.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
You'll have to find somebody else to troll.
^^^ >_> Ummm...yeah.
Everyone was OP at the end of it all! Regen didn't "stand at the head of the pack". Everyone did! After all...we(as in 50+) were Incarnates.
We're not here because we're free. We're here because we're not free.
Some of us *me at least* still did things without using incarnate abilities. The problem with Incarnate abilities imo, was it turned everyone into a cosmic level hero, when none of my concepts were concept level :/
And I'm not talking about power level. I'm talking strictly LORE standpoint. Which then had me do stuff without Incarnate abilities.
Soloing AVs wasn't impressive if I used Incarnate abilities. :p
That is something I REALLY hope they can address in this game... I'm really hoping that the "paths" system they've suggested pans out, so that "lore-wise" I can be a daredevil or Spiderman type who sticks close to home and helps out his/her neighborhood....
Or you can be a GL/Nova type who fights cosmic threats...
...or a Fantastic Four type that kind of does it all....
I really hope there's a means of establishing one'self as a cosmic defender of the planet, or a street-level defender of a particular district or neighborhood....and whatever else in between
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
There is no way you can tell me regen on "its own" was unbalanced do to IH or exceeded resistance/defense sets in survivability. *puts down katana* each set had something that made it do what it do! But each set has a "taste" of someone else's power.
But could do their job well without a required primary.
Defence/ resistance sets vs regen summerized IMO of course:WP: Willpower had everything a regen could dream of an could even "out regen" the regen if IH was not activated. I have seen this power set go "afk" on the ITF runs! Something a regen wouldn't dare.Regen shine best in 1v1 Av encounters compared to Wp. Winner: depends on your playstyle. active or set an forget. Most lean to Wp though...
Regen vs Invulnerability : when it came too taking a hit be it spike damage or proton cannon! Few could measure up to that which is invulnerability. With "potential" to soft cap to almost everything plus a dull pain heal backing. Your looking at a potential Superman. Regen could reach soft cap for 15 sec. Invulnerables lived there on most stats. Regen had a soilds 8-10 resistance to everything/ no natural def building power. Regen had better end. Winner:Invulnerablility
Regen vs Eletric Armor: Electric armor was considered to be even more survivable than invulnerability due to its resistance to everything. It had unlimited end, damage aura, recharge boost, regen heal/boost and a tier to die for. regen simply out regen electric but thats about it. winner: electric armor
Regen vs Dark armor: Dark armor had alot of weaknesses to a casual player. But to a seasoned vet. This thing had the potential to survive anything in the right hands.So many attack options/tactics. Its heal put all of regens healing ability to shame in one click. End heavy but fixable. Winner Dark armor hands down.
Regen vs Super Reflexes: Super reflexes is one of the few that had a vast share of its own problem. Once it reached soft cap this set was godly. With a resistance that increases as you took hits. Regen did beat it in regeneration but we all know never being touched exceeds regen in this game. I have seen Werner's survivability chart an Arcanaville's opinion on the subject an I can assure you regen doesn't beat def. Winner: SR
Regen vs Fire: I can't speak on fire in massive detail. But I lean in fires favor due to the feats that have been accomplished with the set ( solo lord recluse task force), damage king all around.A true "Face wrecker"Compared to regen ( soloed the rikiti pylon challange) winner: in my eyes fire, but i prefer a person with experience with the set to weigh in.
Regen vs Energy armor: I know that energy armor had gotten an update that made it better but I prefer someone else to compare the two. Winner: open for discussion
Ice vs regen: Ice was badass but it depended on which one you used. I made a stalker an I must say that it was solid. I made it to 50 and recall it having some kinda uber heal/regen (Wanna call it bastion. Not sure) solid def, and a resistance to the one thing any regens worth there salt dreaded! Recharge debuff
Winner: I would say ice if you compared the two in the stalker class. Open for discussion though.
Regen vs shield armor: shield armor was just as unstoppable as any other powerset. But what made it shine was its ability to kill! I'm talking in the billion range( remember the i13 architecture building farming runs exploit) in mass numbers. Soft cap def was no problem.solid res numbers.self Damage amplifier. This was a power set that put away mobs in seconds. Only weakness it had was no healing ability.
Winner: shield armor: In the words of gucci mane" i don't heal, i just kill'em, (at the same damn time!"x3)
Regen vs Bio Armor: granted it only made it to the final testing server, but what it was bringing to the table was gonna step on a few sets "toes" with its adaptability and brand new "absorb" ability. Winner: could some test players of bio armor weigh in on subject?
Regen:All that regen had to survived with was regen, an player wits. No def power to build from. No consistent resistance to rely on.No adamantium bonding process. When we got hit. We took 90ish percent of the full brunt from all attacks.If regeneration failed there was nothing else to fall on as a "plan b" if you mis managed your clicks. All the others had some form of a plan b, and there's nothing wrong with that. From when i started play (i12) i enjoyed regen do to the"control" it gave me over my character. Even though I appeared better then most as we leveled up "power set wise". Eventually I "peaked" mid way while everyone else's potential was higher than a regen type defense. IIRC for every point of Resistance. you would add 2 defence an 10 regeneration. IH didn't save me from everything all by itself. It simply bought time.Most people didn't realize that MAX REGENERATION did'nt mean jack!(Remember the incarnate trial with Pink circle of doom. I was still killed by it with blue numbers on my regeneration. I could regenerate like GMs! They were 350 regen). Regen's secret was never about regeneration. It was about con--tr-o--l---ng---t--he-----t.. * Server timed out!
We're not here because we're free. We're here because we're not free.
Personally I'm of the mindset that layered defense is superior (and should be) to any singular form of defense, resistance or regen alone. The ability to aquire and improve multiple forms of protection without external help is something I hope this game retains from CoH and improves upon. Regeneration as a defense is one thing I'd like to see greatly improved over the way it was. it was useable and more active than other defense sets... which is one of the few things that I think kept it floating, but all in all it felt like the weakest form of defense out of everything I played... even compared to stalker willpower (vs stalker regen), willpower was actually pretty decent on stalkers.
When Brutes finally got it, there -was- an improvement, but I think that was mostly due to the higher HP providing a bigger cushion... I would've loved to see how it would do as a tanker set.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
I agree!
We're not here because we're free. We're here because we're not free.
I gotta say, I've always felt like Regen should have been a tanker set, and the only reason it was given to scrappers was because of wolverine.... :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'd make a wager that you're probably correct Orion.. err.. GhostHack :)
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
Hopefully this time around there are no wolverine looking claws. Its too iconic.I would prefer hand claws! Examples: sabertooth, vampires,werewolves, beast,cyber.
We're not here because we're free. We're here because we're not free.
god yes... i want more natural claws.... and i want lady deathstrike-esque 'super-natural finger claws', too
i don't mind wolverine-esque claws... but i'd also like to see the x-23 dual claw look, and the baraka or assassin's creed 'under-wrist blade' look.
the biggest thing, to me.... is that this game divests mechanics from looks (for the most part).... so, hopefully we can get a boatload of animations :D
oh, and feel free to call me Orion... i want it to be a 'household name' by launch... even if my global is still going to be Ghosthack ;P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
If HP pools are more static, I really hope that HP pool manipulation is a combat mechanic that gets looked into.
In champions online there is a stat choice that greatly defines your HP pool. The problem with that is that when combined with the many other mitigation mechanics there is a HUGE disparity between the game's defined values (Damage Numbers etc) and the builds using them.
My complete desire is to avoid this in City of Titans. Sure Tanks may come with more default HP than other classes etc.. but I want this more defined in stone. IF this happens it will not only greatly help balance, it also opens up the buffer role's mechanics. Buffers could buff HP pools for allies giving them more HP and then also filling that pool. In this scenario healing is not the instant "reset button" that, unless I am still misunderstanding, the OP wishes to avoid
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Would prefer both as options.
And WP on Stalkers was awesome! I'm not sure Regen needed more added defense than it had. It's theme limited it a bit, so wouldn't have made sense to really give it so much layered defense as other sets.
Which is sadly why everyone said pair it with the swords :/
I like wrist/fist blades. But I can agree that having the 3 claw as a character option won't do anything toward clone deterrents.
EDIT: (Sorry Realized after I posted how much of a derail this is from the topic) Please feel free to delete comment.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Do you mean something like Omega Red's " death spore" ability? I could see that as a power in game! An anti heal/regeneration power set. Doesn't hit too hard but the death spore effect with certain attacks could make things more interesting. Stopping the "reset the match" capabilities via lowering overall HP of the challenging class. As long as there is something too fall back on I see no problem. I wouldn't mind regeneration getting an overhaul as long as we are a solid option. After all! What's a wolverine/ dead pool type without a healing factor!
We're not here because we're free. We're here because we're not free.
One thought that crossed my mind and I wanted to throw out here is that of any larger, direct heal only being provided by a clicky. For example, "the healer" summons a medical drone that sits where it was summoned. If someone takes more damage than "the healer" can otherwise compensate, that individual has to go to the drone to click on it.
Admittedly this neither addresses the question of how to mitigate the "here, have a dollop of health" approach to healing nor how to allow people to play dedicated healers (although I agree with the assertion that CoH did not really have a classic 'healer'). At best this idea makes for an elegant explanation of how anyone could have access to 'healing powers' through a power pool.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Wow, what to comment on.
Don't like the idea of no shops to shop at. I loved Icon, gave me a chance to unwind and know I was not going to be attacked, gave me an immersion in the game that would happen in real life. Now you say this did not happen in the comics, but it did happen in the animation films, Justice League unlimited had two instances. One had Wonder Woman in civilian clothes shopping on the sidewalk in the Hawk and Dove story. Another was Zatanna shopping at a magic stare to get something to find Cercy with. Then in the animated movie Batman Superman apocalypse Clark takes Kara shopping for clothes. So there is reference to heroes shopping.
The thing that started all these post trying to fix the healing that in my opinion was never broke. The healing AOEs always seemed to take longer to recharge than the others if I remember correctly unless you sloted some recharge and had permanent hasten then it would come back quicker, from what I remember it also took more endurance to use those so you ran out quicker unless you had slotted the fitness pool and put end reductions in. Empaths were mainly wanted because of the buffs actually they just happen to come with 3 heals. I personally like the dark/dark defender, had a great aoe heal, you couldn't really spam it, healed a lot of hp and it rebuffed the target, negative regen negative to hit buff which was with all the dark blast powers, great set. I liked the idea that it could miss, made the game more realistic for me. But in all I saw no issues with the defender class or the empathy set.
It's kinda odd, I have never seen a group complain about getting heals, I have heard them complain about the heal self, it's not fair in pvp or no you can't use inspirations or potions in pvp. I have always responded" if it's in my trays and I can click it, I am going to use it".
All in all it's best to think of it this way, you take things away or gimp things in a MMO that is available in other your limiting your player base, they will go somewhere else. There is a lot of people that enjoys the healer role and that's all they will play. They're are always going to be players that actually wants to click on a door and go inside a store because it helps their emersion in the game, I personally am one of these.
Let's not argue our opinions thinking that the opinion is the only answer so therefor I must convince everyone so that the devs thinks what the majority of the players want, which in a way is telling people how to play your way.
I understand that this is not going to be CITY OF HEROES, the name of powers has to be different , the animation has to be different the costumes are going to be different , but the results being the same, if wanted to play a blaster that had KB I will the power might be called something else and look different but have the same effect as other MMOs, if I want to play a healer then I want to be able to heal not not die because I am the healer cause I grab the aground for some reason or my heals were so week it couldn't mitigate the damage enough.
I think I have made my point and I am sure there is some that will hate my opinion and others that will agree.
The out of the way magic shop, that doubles as any real world "magic shop" and regular stores for civilian outfits that don't cater to superhero attire of power gauntlets, magic bracelets, grenade launchers...etc...etc There is a difference. I don't think I ever said "those with powers don't shop"
Nope. PBAOE Heals like Empathy's and Radiation's recharged pretty quickly.
Never heard complaints about heal self powers. Inspiration use yes. But then we had a community who thought being attacked in an open pvp zone they walked into on their own accord, knowing it was a pvp zone, was unfair.
Well, I do love how you say you love the ICON idea because it helps your immersion and it seems realistic, but the idea of a healer grabbing agro seems terrible to you, when healers grabbing the most agro seems to make the most sense.
You're kicking superman's butt, but you can't finish him off because that one hero in the background is constantly healing him. What do you do? You take down the healer. That is what I would call immersion.
In any game in which I can identify the healers before the combat starts, they are my first priority. If I only know them when they start healing, I may or may not finish my current target before switching to them. So when the enemy (GM across the table or AI controlling the mobs) targets the healers on my side once they have an excuse to have identified them, I don't really have a complaint coming. Or rather, I'll register the complaint by making the ones targeting my healers my next priority ^_^.
But on the subject of healing in a superhero game in general, I'll be quite happy if my characters have the option of getting at least a bit of healing (from the tertiary pools or whatever they end up getting called). Something between first aid training and EMT, maybe. If there's a character around who can heal as their primary function, great!
Prior to getting [url=http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2179-revolution-book-three-of-the-secret-world-chronicle-earc.aspx]Revolution[/url], I've been rereading the [url=http://www.baenebooks.com/p-1317-invasion-book-one-of-the-secret-world-chronicles.aspx]previous[/url] [url=http://www.baenebooks.com/p-1538-world-divided-book-two-of-the-secret-world-chronicle.aspx]books[/url] in that series. Most of this thread (especially the posts about the Empathy powerset) made me think, "How would Belladonna Blue react to that?"
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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And that proves my point about people wanting to argue there opinion hoping they can sway others to their side. Brand X you are a very argumentative person and don't know when to quite that wants it her way or the highway, if you dont agree with other opinions then you haft to bash the other person until they submit to your thinking which goes back to, I want your character to follow my rules that I want.
The Rad may have came back sooner but it didnt heal for very much.
But it doesnt matter, I can tell some one like you that it gets dark at night and you will argue that it doesn't because of the moon.
And as for as the stores in COH if they had it programmed for civilians to also walk in stores it would have been better, but no one asked for it, it wasnt a biggy it didnt bother people.
Stores,that was one of the things that made COH fun, there were buildings you could go into unlike DC where they are either the police stations, a club or the missions.
I would actually like to see a post office for your mail as an option, Banks that you can go into and make a withdrawal or deposit, Auction houses, stores for your enhancements and inspirations or potions and gear what ever is used in game. You take away certain aspects of the game and you will loose part of your player base which is something we don't need. now adding options ... say you want a key to click to go to the tailor screen or a store screen or to get your mail as an addition to the actual places that would satisfy people like you. As for as the healing, I think we need to see what the DEVs come up with, yall have beat that puppy til its dead.
There should be no heals! EVER #hyperbole
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I honestly think you've missed the underlying conflict. that said, you are entitled to believe the system worked fine in CoX. But it would behoove you, in the future, not to antagonize a member who you claim is "augmentative" by labeling them as such or contending with their "side" of the argument, without accurately accounting for it (such actions lead to further discussion, further "argument" because you and she are not arguing the same points about the topic, but you are claiming to refute her position.)
you should state your position, and avoid interacting with those who you claim are "argumentative."
that is irrelevent, because the argument is not, and has not been about how effective one heal is, in comparison to another... but how healing is viewed by the community (and the various perspectives therein)
THIS is highly inflammatory speech, whose only purpose is to incite your subject to argue. I would ARGUE, that you have walked into this thread with a desire to "put down" someone with a different view then yours, simply because it IS different, without a strong understanding of their position beyond it's position on the "other side" of the debate than your own.
again, I would suggest you simply express your own views and either join in the discussion OF those views, in relation to the greater conversation......
....or leave.
your actions in the thread, so far, are impotent at best... and hypocritical at worst.
you fail to acknowledge Brand X's problem with Icon [b] SPECIFICALLY[/b]
She has no problem with stores, no problem with buildings you can walk into.
she has never said otherwise.
She does.not.like.ICON.... explicitly and exclusively (in terms of stores)
because a place like ICON does.not.exist. in the genre (for the most part) and is off-putting to her immersion because the idea that there is a big-box store that caters exclusively to every possible need of every possible hero is nonsensical.
[/quote]I would actually like to see a post office for your mail as an option, Banks that you can go into and make a withdrawal or deposit, Auction houses, stores for your enhancements and inspirations or potions and gear what ever is used in game.[/quote]
All of these elements existed in City of Heroes/Villains, and Brand X's comments and position have NOTHING to do with any of these.
she's only discussing Icons.
Brand X already made this suggestion, several pages ago (in the very first post ABOUT Icons, in this thread, if memory serves)
Her further contention is that such an instantaneous system negates the need for a physical place like Icons....
for those desiring a "safe place" (which a place like Icons never should be, given it's vulnerability to attack), why not have an actual safe place to congregate... more "casual stores" (which are functionally "RP set pieces") and facilities like high schools, universities, sports stadiums, public parks that happen to be free of crime, to provide space to have some "down time" without fear of reprisal.
The whole point of discussions like this is to hash out our own concerns so that the Developers will not simply carbon-copy elements from the original game... and take a moment to consider alternatives to "The way things have always been done"
The result might be "The way things have always been done"..... but, perhaps in looking at alternatives, the developers stumble upon something NEW, something FRESH... that makes the game stand out and appeal to a BROADER audience... if only for it's novelty.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
If this is the type of players that this game is going to have then it will fail, wish all of y'all th best. In my opinion this thread needs to be closed because it's not going anywhere and obviously certain people wants to make sure they are heard more than others and if your going to quaternary me to defend some one else you might want to go back and read some of her posts. Good night.
The problem with making the AI smarter so the bad guys actual smart stuff is that we'd all die...fast. NOBODY would shoot at the Tanker...until he was the last one standing. So targeting the Healer is a perfectly valid tactic...and one that would never work just like 'target the Blaster/controller/anyone but the Tank' would pretty much sink this or any other MMO.
As for the rest (specifically Healing): I may have missed a posting or three and if so I'm sorry. For those that DO want a 'Healer' AT/Powerset, please give us an idea of how you would do it.
For those opposed to the idea, build a buff set to replace it.
I say this because I try not to shoot down the ideas of others unless I have one of my own to fill the void
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
"build a buff set to replace it"
:(
....I did :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Personally speaking, I would just go for the empath set similar to what was in CoX, but make a few more of the abilities able to be cast on the caster, instead of the user just being limited to the 3 aura's.
But I would also extend the "cast on self" across the rest of the "buff" power sets as well. Its all well and good being able to buff everyone else under the sun, but it would be nice if there was at least a version of the other stuff that they could use on themselves (even if its something like "same strength buff, just 1/2 duration" or something along those lines).
It *could* possibly help those classes solo a bit better as well, but it would at least make it more "appealing" in my eyes for seeing more of those out in the game world.
Its a bit of a catch 22 situation... everyone KNEW that the buff/control classes were good in CoX, but the problem was that although (could well have just been on my server), I saw quite a few of them in the *lower* level ranges, I didn't see all that many in the *mid to high" level. Well, not necessarily solo.
You think it'll fail because it has a player like me, who wants it to feel more like DC/Marvel universe (you know those popular superhero universes...and maybe keeping more to their feeling would actually make for a more popular superhero MMO...which btw...DCUO fails at), even though I said I'd play CoT even if they did go the route of being like CoH and CO?
And I recall many people always asking for smarter enemies without trick gimmicks. What's smarter than going after the healer?
I think Gangrel just hit on something. I had two Emp Defenders but neither of them got above the low 30s. A friend of mine only hit the 40s by PLing with a large team. As Gangrel said, Healing was most popular at the lower levels before other forms of mitigation were available. By the time many characters hit the 20s they're starting to get the better powers, better mitigation, Stamina etc. So once the characters have other alternatives the Healer is no longer as desirable.
So maybe we've been looking at the wrong questions. Instead of 'How do we handle the fact that some players might expect Healing' maybe we need to concentrate more on giving buffers a role in the endgame.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I seem to recall a novel where Deathstroke was subvocalizing his strategy for taking on several JLA members en masse and explained in some detail that he (in CoX terms) always eliminated the controllers and defenders first, the meatheads second. Since the de/buffers and mez types were a far greater threat.
I have to wonder though given the way I saw folks build and play their "healers" if they chose that role specifically to avoid dealing with aggro. It seemed like they all hovered and were either illusion or had stacked stealth.
Debuffers always dealt with a lot of aggro as did anyone with a aoe control.
We may have a situation where fun to read may not be quite so fun to play.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I think what we need to see is each buff set getting one signature ability that improves their own solo survivability.
In Empathy's case, it should definitely replace one of the heal-other powers.
I tried to compensate for the general less than stellar survivability and increase the "pure buff" nature (non-"healing") of the set.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I know quite a few who built healers because they just wanted to stand back, keep people healed, and not attack, specifically saying they didn't want to do all the work and loved it when they could just rock the aura.
Does this mean all? No. But it means there are some who do, and maybe that's the reason for not liking the agro for healers.
honestly.... no one likes aggro... it's threat, it risks defeat. no one likes xp debt, no one likes team wipes...
....without buffer aggro, troller aggro, blaster damage aggro..... what purpose would tanks serve? Aggro is necessary, because it is the risk that counter's the reward of success...
Players like avoiding aggro, because it enables them to receive the reward without the risk. Same is true of Tanks, they like feeling invincible, feeling like they are risk free.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm still voting for a CoX-like empathy set.
It didn't need fixing, don't want it changing for any reasons anyone might have, don't like, don't play it, don't like me, don't play with me.
not me
I don't feel CoX and CO are all that similar.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
If I recall correctly, Adrenalin Boost and Regen Aura, both with 3 Heal SOs, could out regenate a Regen scrapper. add in Recovery Aura and the recovery boost exceeded the -recovery of Nukes. I'm not sure that [b]all[/b] of the powers in the Empathy set should be able to be used on the caster.
I was pretty sure that was in terms of how CoX and CO both made costume change and auctionhouse part of their in game lore with places and people.
And if you don't want the game to be like the Marvel/DC universe, that's fine. Go ahead, put your vote in to camp it up with MMO mechanics and MMO traditions and make your opinion known that you prefer to play the background healer. I never really stopped anyone from doing it. :p
Camp it up? Like with tents and stuff?
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Although not a comic book I feel that the Incerables did a good job of showing what a world full of supers would be like and of coarse they wouldn't have such stylish costumes without Edna so why not have an equivalent in our game.
That's fine, Cold... but Consider...
Edna was a cloistered SECRET individual who focused on super heroic fashion. mr. Incredible had her number, and called her... and then SHE made the costume for him. He only showed up to pick up the delivery...and it wasn't at her "Superheroic costume outlet"... it was at her private estate.
and that's what Brand has been shooting for all along.
she hopes that we wont have "The Super Hero Costume Outlet" in the game, Like Icons or the Costume Vendors of the Cryptic titles
She hopes we have a system that enables players to say "I called Edna" or "I ordered some stuff online" or "my super-science laboratory invented this new materal"
she hopes to separate the costume creation mechanics from the lore of Titan City as a whole (Icons was part of the world, it had it's own life and history within the context of the setting)....She wants it to become individual, like how you got your powers in the first place (Origin) or why you're in Titan City at all(backstory)...
She wants to open up the possibilities, rather than (narratively speaking,) defining them with in-world lore.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I really don't get all of this 'Fantasy' hate. It's just 'superheroes' in a pre-industrial setting. Why not just let the City be what it is/was? You don't have to be exclusive and say, "No Greenies allowed. All Greenies are anti-genre. Greenies Go Home! Your Fantasy is not my Fantasy!"
That's silly!
I have this image of jackbooted JudgeDredds rounding up all of the elves and faeries and orcs and 'ancient Celtic warriors' for deportation from your milieu, and in the middle is Hulk saying, "... But Hulk not magic. Hulk is Science! Hulk survive nuclear explosion." To which the JudgeDredd replies, "Survived...?? That sounds like magic to me!"
Be Well!
Fireheart
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