If the game is -at its core- built so that healing is not necessary, I'd still like to roll an empath please.
You don't need to understand why, or play with me. But my all empath supergroup would like a chance to shine, we'll see you at the end of the map with everything already dead k?

If the game is-at its core- built so that healing is not important, why make it a power pool? I get you believe that this in some way trivialises healing but really those power pools were well specced. Pick aid-self or aid other and you could slot an IO, never use the power and just get the benefit from the IOs passive effect. Plus power pool wtf? Just use insps. Why waste a power pool on something as stupid as healing.

If the game is -essentially- based around the movie idea of not needing healing, do you also not need a rez? Not need to repair? Never change your costume? NOT TEAM VERY OFTEN IF AT ALL?

I'm ignoring the "those things weren't there at the beginning, they came into being due to the will of the people" cos no.. no they didn't.

GH wrote:

The simplest answer is.. if you don't want heals, don't team with a healer. That does NOT mean we shouldn't have team or solo or small group or PvP healers. Just YOU don't have to play with them.
So.. along with no healing there is no market, no OOC mechanics, it needs to be like the movies.
That's not the kind of game I'm hoping for or will play. I watch movies, I play an MMO.
Superheros that heal, superheros that have a mission creator (did I miss someone try and nerf that yet?), superheros that have access to a costume creator (surely that is OOC?), superheros that have a market.. yeah those things were and are both CoX and MMO requirements.
I actually very rarely played my healers, with the high level teams I was running with there generally wasn't much need for healing however not being a pure healing set they still got played, but for the rest of their sets and power pools, not for heals. For lowbie teams.. especially pugs.. a healer was extremely useful. I do not see how staying alive to carry on fighting (like in the movies right) was immersion breaking IF I WAS KEEPING YOU ALIVE WITH HEALS. For those sewer runs or full team street sweeping, radio/newspaper missions where you got swamped, ST buffs, debuffs.. not going to cut it. A (let's face it) extremely low level pbaoe heal sometimes saved the day (yay for saving the day like in the movies)
Geez... can we stop being so nerf heavy already?
GhostHack wrote:
Any attempt to directly duplicate COX would feel, even to you (perhaps ESPECIALLY to you), like a sham.... a thin and hollow shell of the game you loved.... a mockery of that game.
Or.. it would be THE OPPOSITE. Seriously..

Wrong. Unlike other forum goers, I actually made use of PuGs, and I hated it when people thought you need a tank/healer to go with all the DPS.

Even after it was proven it could be done without the combo (like the all Scrapper Apex and Tin Man Incarnate Task Forces) people thought "Need a tank and a healer."

And one can have tailor and auction house functions without making them some IC lore based thing.

Instead of going to the AH or Tailor, one hits a button and up pops the AH/Tailor screen allowing you to sell/buy or change your outfit.

I never once said let's not have those items in game. I said, let's not make them part of the city.

I didn't care for the in game newspaper boys yelling out "So and so NPC has found a way to use Dual Pistols and made it so people can unlock Electric Armor!" :p

And my first suggest was a way to make it possible but still rare like it is in the genre. Then someone said make it a power pool, and that seemed like a great compromise to the whole "I can't be healer." You could be! Take the power pool that allows you to heal others. And look at that, if made a power pool, your tank can be the teamhealer so you can be both the Tank/Heals you feel is needed on every team.

GH wrote:

If the game is -at its core- built so that healing is not necessary, I'd still like to roll an empath please.
You don't need to understand why, or play with me. But my all empath supergroup would like a chance to shine, we'll see you at the end of the map with everything already dead k?
If the game is-at its core- built so that healing is not important, why make it a power pool? I get you believe that this in some way trivialises healing but really those power pools were well specced. Pick aid-self or aid other and you could slot an IO, never use the power and just get the benefit from the IOs passive effect. Plus power pool wtf? Just use insps. Why waste a power pool on something as stupid as healing.
If the game is -essentially- based around the movie idea of not needing healing, do you also not need a rez? Not need to repair? Never change your costume? NOT TEAM VERY OFTEN IF AT ALL?
I'm ignoring the "those things weren't there at the beginning, they came into being due to the will of the people" cos no.. no they didn't.

well, to what you claim to ignore... Hah, yes they did.

as for the rest.... movies are one example.... but so are novels and comics... the core of the genre...
and in all that media.... your examples sort of falter:
equipment, vehicles, armors often need to be repaired
superheroes change their costume designs regularly
and some heroes work alone most of the time, while other narratives only function as the product of team action (there is a whole subgenre of the "team of misfits")

of all the things we see in the game, one of the most "not fitting" elements is this idea of healing regularly over the course of a fight.
healing is generally viewed as "down time" in genre. to rest and repair before the next storm. In the fray there are lulls, times to crudely patch so the team (or individual) may press on, THROUGH the damage they have incurred...
the very notion of "instant healing" (outside of some writer's take on "regeneration") is non-existent outside of the gaming sphere.

my point of giving healing a powerpool was to enable those who wished to have "healing" a means of acquiring it...
every other aspect of Empathy (buffs) I have zero problem with. I love buffs, they are very in-genre. it is ONLY the actual healing that I have any grievance with.... and even that is limited to the nature of MMO culture, and the seeming inability to escape the notion that healing is a necessary component of team dynamic

if I could zap everyone into believing that healing was "no big thing" and marginal at best, i'd have no real problem in it's modest inclusion....
but since that isn't possible, I would much rather structure the game to emphasize the point that Healing is "extra" and a choice (a completely valid choice) a player can make for their character, but in no way necessary or integral to gameplay or team dynamics.

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
You obviously never played CoX with me. No, I did not ever consider CoX as whack-a-mole hp bars. I did not spend most of my time running to costume editors and changing up my costumes, or hours at the Auction house flipping salvage and making billions of inf in one day. Did I use those tools occasionally? Yes. Most of my characters were of some kind of Lightning based hero or villain. In the end I was playing more Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers than anything else. I just loved the way CoX was period. Everybody kept bitching and moaning about how things were so unfair for one thing or another, then the devs would try to fix it, and in doing so would destroy something more of CoX. Everybody wants to think they are doing all this "Nerfing" for the good of the game, but all it does is just break it even more.

Okay, first off, no nerfing is happening. Sorry to break it to you, but anything we ask/suggest here is just that, asking/suggesting. It is in no way asking/suggesting a nerf, because the game hasn't launched yet.
So what is being asked/suggested? To have the game feel like the superhero genre and not your sword and sorcery mmo with spandex outfits. (at least from me...I can't promise that's why others are asking it).

So then using that logic, we shouldn't have Broad Swords, Katanas, Long Swords, Bows and Arrows, Battle Axes, Maces, War Hammers, Rapiers, Short Swords, etc. We also shouldn't have anything that involves mystical powers at all, so no clairvoyance, esp, telekinesis, time manipulation, fire, lightning, ice, storm manipulation, water manipulation, etc. Well that pretty much kills all the powers.....

Weapons...comic book heroes and villains use those :o Mystical powers...Dr Strange, Raven, Zantana. Seriously, you're trying to say Clairvoyance, esp and telekinesis...you know...psychics (Professor X, Emma Frost, Rachel Summers, Jean Grey, Ace).

Fire, Lightning, Storm, Water...seriously...okay then. *eye roll*

How about since they've already said limited number of sets at launch, then I'll go back to "Keep Healing Others to the bottom of the list of powers to come out some day in many years from launch" *thumbs up*

Sorry, as an RPer, one of the things I hate is the whole idea of "My power is to heal you of all wounds and death!" I'm not trying to RP in the Order of the Stick world. I want to RP in DC/Marvel-esque world. And one of the things I hated RPing in CoH was being wounded, because it always left you with the RPers that had "Oh! Look! I'm all about healing...you're no longer hurt...at all...((hey don't ignore my RP! That's my powerset! All about making it so you are never hurt...ever!))" :p

I don't believe you speak for everyone prior to CoT or even in CoT so zapping everyone into believing something we know nothing about seems a bit ego-centric.

of all the things we see in the game - really? of ALL those things?

The game never was structured in such a way that healing was necessary or integral to gameplay or team dynamics. Sorry if you feel that it was and hated that you felt like that.

My team of "healers" would still like a chance to beat all the content please. You can use the power pools and insps as you see fit and I PROMISE if you send me your in-game name to NEVER heal you, not even almost by accident.

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
GH wrote:
If the game is -at its core- built so that healing is not necessary, I'd still like to roll an empath please.
You don't need to understand why, or play with me. But my all empath supergroup would like a chance to shine, we'll see you at the end of the map with everything already dead k?
If the game is-at its core- built so that healing is not important, why make it a power pool? I get you believe that this in some way trivialises healing but really those power pools were well specced. Pick aid-self or aid other and you could slot an IO, never use the power and just get the benefit from the IOs passive effect. Plus power pool wtf? Just use insps. Why waste a power pool on something as stupid as healing.
If the game is -essentially- based around the movie idea of not needing healing, do you also not need a rez? Not need to repair? Never change your costume? NOT TEAM VERY OFTEN IF AT ALL?
I'm ignoring the "those things weren't there at the beginning, they came into being due to the will of the people" cos no.. no they didn't.

Heroes change outfits. Or did you not see the original 4 Batman movies? Even the newest one had him updating his outfit into something new.
The request is more of a "Let's not make a shopping mall to go to."

So basically you want us to have a place in our base for sheep so we can harvest wool, a loom so that we can weave the wool into sheets of fabric, shears so we can cut out the pattern for the costume we want to make, and vats of dye so we can color it how we want it? I mean, somehow we have to come up with the way to get all the stuff for a costume. Seems easier to me to go to a store that sells that stuff, my opinion though.

Yup. I'm sure that's what Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Raven, X-Men, all did...they went to the local ICON, a store anyone could walk into, and bought their outfit. *rolls eyes*

You know what my suggestion allows one to do? hit /tailor options Open a window to change the outfit and for you to then RP it as however you want.

You know what an ICON store does for those who want the game to feel like DC/Marvel? Ruins it. Because it's right there...part of lore. And when it becomes part of lore, then people argue over what to keep and what to disregard. Like, CoH's Origin mission that had you go to different contacts about the different origins, and it gave you a background on when and how of that origin, and people were all "Worst. Sucks. Don't accept it." but when someone says "ICON. Worst. Sucks. Don't accept it." to it being in CoH's lore, it was much more laughed at because it was more widely acceptable to people.

If it's not an option to start, no worries. :p And if we're going to have ICON. Can I have my ultimate villain blow it up as a way to get rid of pesky heroes and rival villains? Because, you know, my villain wants to get rid of as many people as possible, so let's get rid of the big hangout spot that's in a shopping district. :)

GhostHack wrote:

we are keeping in mind that, of your examples... only the costume creator (and healing) existed at launch.. right?
these other mmo elements were added later (the auction house, the mission creator).... they weren't "required", they simply became part of the experience.
That said, the fulfilled a need. Auction houses are deemed necessary to provide an "economy" in the game (which is really just a means of resource sinking the arbitrary tick-rewards acquired through play)
the Architect was an OOC mechanic (the ability to write your own stories in the game setting) given an In Lore context.
neither of these are vital components of the game, they simply appealed to the will of the playerbase.

The AH was a massive effort that there was massive resistance from the player base to.
The AE was the same.
You can't just claim now that "people" wanted them, cos a lot of people, people on this very forum, did not and do not want them in CoT either.

I'd claim that healing fulfils a need and it appeals to the will of the playerbase.

Just saying stuff doesn't make it true.
Except the bit I said about healing. Obviously.

GH wrote:

GhostHack wrote:
we are keeping in mind that, of your examples... only the costume creator (and healing) existed at launch.. right?
these other mmo elements were added later (the auction house, the mission creator).... they weren't "required", they simply became part of the experience.
That said, the fulfilled a need. Auction houses are deemed necessary to provide an "economy" in the game (which is really just a means of resource sinking the arbitrary tick-rewards acquired through play)
the Architect was an OOC mechanic (the ability to write your own stories in the game setting) given an In Lore context.
neither of these are vital components of the game, they simply appealed to the will of the playerbase.

The AH was a massive effort that there was massive resistance from the player base to.
The AE was the same.
You can't just claim now that "people" wanted them, cos a lot of people, people on this very forum, did not and do not want them in CoT either.
I'd claim that healing fulfils a need and it appeals to the will of the playerbase.
Just saying stuff doesn't make it true.
Except the bit I said about healing. Obviously.

Please. Many people loved having an economy. Many people loved having an AH to sell/buy the items they wanted.

I'd claim that healing fulfills no need other debuffs/buffs couldn't fill better while staying more inline with the genre. Force Fields...popular buff in comics. :p

And in CoH, I remember everyone loving having defense buffs put on them way more than having a healer on the team who rocked the aura.

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
GH wrote:
If the game is -at its core- built so that healing is not necessary, I'd still like to roll an empath please.
You don't need to understand why, or play with me. But my all empath supergroup would like a chance to shine, we'll see you at the end of the map with everything already dead k?
If the game is-at its core- built so that healing is not important, why make it a power pool? I get you believe that this in some way trivialises healing but really those power pools were well specced. Pick aid-self or aid other and you could slot an IO, never use the power and just get the benefit from the IOs passive effect. Plus power pool wtf? Just use insps. Why waste a power pool on something as stupid as healing.
If the game is -essentially- based around the movie idea of not needing healing, do you also not need a rez? Not need to repair? Never change your costume? NOT TEAM VERY OFTEN IF AT ALL?
I'm ignoring the "those things weren't there at the beginning, they came into being due to the will of the people" cos no.. no they didn't.

Heroes change outfits. Or did you not see the original 4 Batman movies? Even the newest one had him updating his outfit into something new.
The request is more of a "Let's not make a shopping mall to go to."

So basically you want us to have a place in our base for sheep so we can harvest wool, a loom so that we can weave the wool into sheets of fabric, shears so we can cut out the pattern for the costume we want to make, and vats of dye so we can color it how we want it? I mean, somehow we have to come up with the way to get all the stuff for a costume. Seems easier to me to go to a store that sells that stuff, my opinion though.

Yup. I'm sure that's what Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Raven, X-Men, all did...they went to the local ICON, a store anyone could walk into, and bought their outfit. *rolls eyes*
You know what my suggestion allows one to do? hit /tailor options Open a window to change the outfit and for you to then RP it as however you want.
You know what an ICON store does for those who want the game to feel like DC/Marvel? Ruins it. Because it's right there...part of lore. And when it becomes part of lore, then people argue over what to keep and what to disregard. Like, CoH's Origin mission that had you go to different contacts about the different origins, and it gave you a background on when and how of that origin, and people were all "Worst. Sucks. Don't accept it." but when someone says "ICON. Worst. Sucks. Don't accept it." to it being in CoH's lore, it was much more laughed at because it was more widely acceptable to people.
If it's not an option to start, no worries. :p And if we're going to have ICON. Can I have my ultimate villain blow it up as a way to get rid of pesky heroes and rival villains? Because, you know, my villain wants to get rid of as many people as possible, so let's get rid of the big hangout spot that's in a shopping district. :)

Did we ever see them NOT go somewhere to get stuff for their costumes? Batman had companies make parts of his costumes and then ship them to Wayne Manor where he then put them together. Iron Man had Jarvis order parts to be manufactured and then shipped to Stark's house. Where did Spiderman get his lycra outfit that he sewed into his costume from? You think that the heros just HAPPENED to have all that material laying around to magically create their outfits?

What didn't they do? Go to a shop dedicated to hero and villain attire!

I don't know. Neither do you. Maybe they did. Some had alter egos, perhaps Clark Kent went shopping for Superman's new threads. Point is, they had to get their stuff SOMEHOW, and you can't tell me that they just had 1 million pre-made outfits just lying around waiting for them to don.

oOStaticOo wrote:

I don't know. Neither do you. Maybe they did. Some had alter egos, perhaps Clark Kent went shopping for Superman's new threads. Point is, they had to get their stuff SOMEHOW, and you can't tell me that they just had 1 million pre-made outfits just lying around waiting for them to don.

I can tell you they didn't have a dedicated store that said "Are you a superhero? Well come to ICON for all your hero fashion needs." because you know...I actually like the genre and not just looking for a new game to play.

GH wrote:

[quote=Brand X
You know what my suggestion allows one to do? hit /tailor options Open a window to change the outfit and for you to then RP it as however you want.
Quote:
Or you walk into ICON and the window opens and you change the outfit and RP it how you want it..
I'm not seeing how having ICON doesn't work. It gets you off the street so you're not killed in an invasion / by a random mob / in the PvP zone you forgot you were in, which let's face it would be the first complaint. Like, doesn't the mob realise you're getting changed? Geez.. fix that already. IMHO Icon added to the RP.

Or you hit /tailor and you disappear off screen while you make changes to your character. Or you head to your hideout/base and do it there (which btw...I was never against having a wardrobe/table whatever...in a base/hideout).

Or you know, tell dumb players who complain about getting attacked while using the tailor to smarten up and go to an area not crowded with NPC enemies.

You know, like there is in every MMO.

um, no...

bad rhetoric all around guys.

time to step back and figure out what this thread is supposed to be about, again.

Brand X wrote:

Or you know, tell dumb players

Have both. Have Icon and access in-base.

In-base access should cost as it's a feature request, it may mean having one less storage rack to fit it in or buying a bigger base to accommodate it and it may incur a fee on top of base rent like most additional features did.

I haven't read every post in this thread (70+ since i saw it yesterday?!) but I did see some things I wanted to touch on:

- Healing is not a comic book power but a fantasy power -
I disagree with this assessment. Sure you dont have any of the "major" heroes in Marvel or DC comics that are mainly healers, but they definitely exist in comics (especially modern ones). Marvel especially uses healers more and more to keep their battles epic without killing off characters (and or having them bring people back from the dead). EDIT: Does Professor X count as a healer? He really didn't do much more than buff the X-Men till he died.

- Healing can be removed from the "Trinity" -
The devs have set up a 4 legged chair, not a tri-pod (Damage, Mitigation, Buffs and Debuffs). The assesment that you could remove buffers (healers) from the equation the devs have set forth seems preposterous because the Damage and Mitigation are opposite sides of the same coin, as are Buffs and Debuffs. There are more intuitive ways to approach "healing" and I'd love to hear alot more ideas of how being a character who buffs survivability could still be great fun for those who love it without destroying the balance of fabric we have.
This includes Buffing HP Pool (usually Bubbles/Shields on top of HP), Increasing Mitigation, Increasing Available HP (healing), Decreasing Ally's Threat (making people stop attack it), and many more ideas all go here.. I think Increasing Available HP is great! But when seen as ONE tool in a toolbox you may find other tools more attractive depending on who you're teaming with/buffing

- CoT isn't CoX -
If you're here in the forums at this moment this fact NEEDS to become more and more clear. While I want players to feel that their CoX characters can still come to life and do all the things they could do in CoX.. I do NOT agree with how it got there. Cryptic Engine was crap and the amount of work CoX had making it "work" for their goals was alot of resources. Now you're given a way to make better, more streamlined and expandable game.
For example. I love crowd control. But I did not love that if you cast a hold it was either "the enemy can't do anything" or "the enemy is completely unaffected". So one of my main goals in the Pre-Alpha phase of CoT is to advocate for effecient, well-designed, fair crowd control.

- What if Healing provided a temporary buff to already healed allies -
I really love this idea! What the buffs are and how they work leaves room for much discussion but just as CC shouldn't be completely binary, neither should Healing be. The only hard capped mechanic should be DPS and it's only real hard cap is "Enemy HP = 0" and even that has a counter (revive). I say this because if there are new levels added (above 30) new systems added or the like the game needs the room to expand.

oOStaticOo wrote:

"One should never try to argue logic with comic book nerds."

Piker.
Try anime otaku if you want a REAL challenge!

Someone way up thread(and man did this get long in a hurry) made the point that healing is a post damage bandaid and as such is not actually mitigation. In CoX empathy was a very strong mitigation set +dmg, status prot, +def, regen buffing etc. that got a healer label slapped on it since it had three heals. Thermal, Poison, Storm, Radiation, Kinetics, Dark all had heals but never got that label. There just might be an answer there. Tossing the odd pbaoe or ST ally heal could be done for gameplay reasons without overwhelming the desirability of other possibly better mitigation so long as we don't concentrate a significant number of that type of power in any one set.
Done properly healing would be viewed as the bandaid it is rather than a core tactics for every encounter.

-joe

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
I don't know. Neither do you. Maybe they did. Some had alter egos, perhaps Clark Kent went shopping for Superman's new threads. Point is, they had to get their stuff SOMEHOW, and you can't tell me that they just had 1 million pre-made outfits just lying around waiting for them to don.

I can tell you they didn't have a dedicated store that said "Are you a superhero? Well come to ICON for all your hero fashion needs." because you know...I actually like the genre and not just looking for a new game to play.

Okay! I get it. You don't want any form of any kind of reality invading your fantasy! Now I understand.

Oh! So you think in reality, someone would open a shop at the mall strictly for Superhero attire, selling power gauntlets, ancient swords, rocket boots to just anyone.

Yeeeeaaaaaah...okay...and let me guess, you don't think it'd be the first target for a psycho villain? mhmmm...

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
You obviously never played CoX with me. No, I did not ever consider CoX as whack-a-mole hp bars. I did not spend most of my time running to costume editors and changing up my costumes, or hours at the Auction house flipping salvage and making billions of inf in one day. Did I use those tools occasionally? Yes. Most of my characters were of some kind of Lightning based hero or villain. In the end I was playing more Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers than anything else. I just loved the way CoX was period. Everybody kept bitching and moaning about how things were so unfair for one thing or another, then the devs would try to fix it, and in doing so would destroy something more of CoX. Everybody wants to think they are doing all this "Nerfing" for the good of the game, but all it does is just break it even more.

Okay, first off, no nerfing is happening. Sorry to break it to you, but anything we ask/suggest here is just that, asking/suggesting. It is in no way asking/suggesting a nerf, because the game hasn't launched yet.
So what is being asked/suggested? To have the game feel like the superhero genre and not your sword and sorcery mmo with spandex outfits. (at least from me...I can't promise that's why others are asking it).

So then using that logic, we shouldn't have Broad Swords, Katanas, Long Swords, Bows and Arrows, Battle Axes, Maces, War Hammers, Rapiers, Short Swords, etc. We also shouldn't have anything that involves mystical powers at all, so no clairvoyance, esp, telekinesis, time manipulation, fire, lightning, ice, storm manipulation, water manipulation, etc. Well that pretty much kills all the powers.....

Weapons...comic book heroes and villains use those :o Mystical powers...Dr Strange, Raven, Zantana. Seriously, you're trying to say Clairvoyance, esp and telekinesis...you know...psychics (Professor X, Emma Frost, Rachel Summers, Jean Grey, Ace).
Fire, Lightning, Storm, Water...seriously...okay then. *eye roll*
How about since they've already said limited number of sets at launch, then I'll go back to "Keep Healing Others to the bottom of the list of powers to come out some day in many years from launch" *thumbs up*
Sorry, as an RPer, one of the things I hate is the whole idea of "My power is to heal you of all wounds and death!" I'm not trying to RP in the Order of the Stick world. I want to RP in DC/Marvel-esque world. And one of the things I hated RPing in CoH was being wounded, because it always left you with the RPers that had "Oh! Look! I'm all about healing...you're no longer hurt...at all...((hey don't ignore my RP! That's my powerset! All about making it so you are never hurt...ever!))" :p

To many people Clairvoyance, ESP, Telekinesis, etc. would seem pretty magical. Not necessarily Super Powered. So yeah. Those can be put into a Magical sense. And if we are trying to get away from a Fantasy Realm of Swords and Magic, well......
Even playing in CoH I saw plenty of Raistlins and Drizzts running around the City fighting villains. If people want to play something like that they will.

Please. Obviously you're purposely playing dense with comics or really just never read them.

By you're own theory, cars to people in 1700 would seem magical and the work of witches, so that must make them magical.

A martial artist able to contort into almost impossible positions must be magical, because someone out there would think "That's magic!"

As to Jaybezz, yes, I know there are a few healers in the DC/Marvel universes. Never denied it, but they're not common and generally they're used sparingly for a reason.

And really, there wasn't a level or a mission I saw in CoX that one couldn't get by with just damage dealers, by any decent players who knew the game at all.

I think a large part of the issue here is that Empathy was perceived and played as a healing set despite the mechanics.

I know several people that took it because "I like playing healers" and others that avoided it because "healing isn't necessary", both kinds of players not thinking about it's buff potential.

Maybe this is a place where the ability to decouple the mechanical effects of a powerset from the visuals might work in our favor; too early to tell.

For the record, I came home to 99 new posts on this thread and, well, screw it. There's no way I can figure out where you all went with this. You guys have fun.

Comicsluvr wrote:

*cue Six Million Dollar Man music*

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6bUeFwbKIQ]Granted[/url].

JayBezz wrote:

GhostHack wrote:
look at Telepathy in Champs...
Oh really.. I'd rather not. SO full of fail

HAHAHA, fair enough.

Brand X wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
You obviously never played CoX with me. No, I did not ever consider CoX as whack-a-mole hp bars. I did not spend most of my time running to costume editors and changing up my costumes, or hours at the Auction house flipping salvage and making billions of inf in one day. Did I use those tools occasionally? Yes. Most of my characters were of some kind of Lightning based hero or villain. In the end I was playing more Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers than anything else. I just loved the way CoX was period. Everybody kept bitching and moaning about how things were so unfair for one thing or another, then the devs would try to fix it, and in doing so would destroy something more of CoX. Everybody wants to think they are doing all this "Nerfing" for the good of the game, but all it does is just break it even more.

Okay, first off, no nerfing is happening. Sorry to break it to you, but anything we ask/suggest here is just that, asking/suggesting. It is in no way asking/suggesting a nerf, because the game hasn't launched yet.
So what is being asked/suggested? To have the game feel like the superhero genre and not your sword and sorcery mmo with spandex outfits. (at least from me...I can't promise that's why others are asking it).

So then using that logic, we shouldn't have Broad Swords, Katanas, Long Swords, Bows and Arrows, Battle Axes, Maces, War Hammers, Rapiers, Short Swords, etc. We also shouldn't have anything that involves mystical powers at all, so no clairvoyance, esp, telekinesis, time manipulation, fire, lightning, ice, storm manipulation, water manipulation, etc. Well that pretty much kills all the powers.....

Weapons...comic book heroes and villains use those :o Mystical powers...Dr Strange, Raven, Zantana. Seriously, you're trying to say Clairvoyance, esp and telekinesis...you know...psychics (Professor X, Emma Frost, Rachel Summers, Jean Grey, Ace).
Fire, Lightning, Storm, Water...seriously...okay then. *eye roll*
How about since they've already said limited number of sets at launch, then I'll go back to "Keep Healing Others to the bottom of the list of powers to come out some day in many years from launch" *thumbs up*
Sorry, as an RPer, one of the things I hate is the whole idea of "My power is to heal you of all wounds and death!" I'm not trying to RP in the Order of the Stick world. I want to RP in DC/Marvel-esque world. And one of the things I hated RPing in CoH was being wounded, because it always left you with the RPers that had "Oh! Look! I'm all about healing...you're no longer hurt...at all...((hey don't ignore my RP! That's my powerset! All about making it so you are never hurt...ever!))" :p

To many people Clairvoyance, ESP, Telekinesis, etc. would seem pretty magical. Not necessarily Super Powered. So yeah. Those can be put into a Magical sense. And if we are trying to get away from a Fantasy Realm of Swords and Magic, well......
Even playing in CoH I saw plenty of Raistlins and Drizzts running around the City fighting villains. If people want to play something like that they will.

Please. Obviously you're purposely playing dense with comics or really just never read them.
By you're own theory, cars to people in 1700 would seem magical and the work of witches, so that must make them magical.
A martial artist able to contort into almost impossible positions must be magical, because someone out there would think "That's magic!"
As to Jaybezz, yes, I know there are a few healers in the DC/Marvel universes. Never denied it, but they're not common and generally they're used sparingly for a reason.
And really, there wasn't a level or a mission I saw in CoX that one couldn't get by with just damage dealers, by any decent players who knew the game at all.

I'm going to throw out a few names and see if you recognize them.

Drizzt Do'Urden
Raistlin Majere
Caramon Majere
Kimmuriel Oblodra
Catti Brie
Cadderly Bonaduce
Danica Maupoissant
Artemis Entreri

All of those characters all have powers similar to something from City of Heroes. Yet they are "Fantasy" characters. There will always be a cross over as long as there are people who love to Role Play. As much as you want to try to take the Fantasy out of it, you will unfortunately fail. Somebody will always want to play a Drizzt, or a Cadderly, or any other Fantasy character that happens to be their favorite (Elric of Melnibone, Legolas, etc.)

And as for your lame reference to some person living in the 1700's seeing a car as magical, you are absolutely correct. It would be a thing of magic to them. Much like somebody moving something with their mind would be magic as well, or healing someone with a touch, or casting a fireball from the palm of their hand. "Your ancestors call it magic, but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same."

oOStaticOo wrote:

Legolas

[url=http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131101222907/lego/images/a/a8/Wyldstyle.png]LEGOlass[/url]

[img]http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131101222907/lego/images/a/a8/Wyldstyle.png[/img]

/em http://youtu.be/14zYcSZU3Yw

oOStaticOo wrote:

Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
Brand X wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:
You obviously never played CoX with me. No, I did not ever consider CoX as whack-a-mole hp bars. I did not spend most of my time running to costume editors and changing up my costumes, or hours at the Auction house flipping salvage and making billions of inf in one day. Did I use those tools occasionally? Yes. Most of my characters were of some kind of Lightning based hero or villain. In the end I was playing more Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers than anything else. I just loved the way CoX was period. Everybody kept bitching and moaning about how things were so unfair for one thing or another, then the devs would try to fix it, and in doing so would destroy something more of CoX. Everybody wants to think they are doing all this "Nerfing" for the good of the game, but all it does is just break it even more.

Okay, first off, no nerfing is happening. Sorry to break it to you, but anything we ask/suggest here is just that, asking/suggesting. It is in no way asking/suggesting a nerf, because the game hasn't launched yet.
So what is being asked/suggested? To have the game feel like the superhero genre and not your sword and sorcery mmo with spandex outfits. (at least from me...I can't promise that's why others are asking it).

So then using that logic, we shouldn't have Broad Swords, Katanas, Long Swords, Bows and Arrows, Battle Axes, Maces, War Hammers, Rapiers, Short Swords, etc. We also shouldn't have anything that involves mystical powers at all, so no clairvoyance, esp, telekinesis, time manipulation, fire, lightning, ice, storm manipulation, water manipulation, etc. Well that pretty much kills all the powers.....

Weapons...comic book heroes and villains use those :o Mystical powers...Dr Strange, Raven, Zantana. Seriously, you're trying to say Clairvoyance, esp and telekinesis...you know...psychics (Professor X, Emma Frost, Rachel Summers, Jean Grey, Ace).
Fire, Lightning, Storm, Water...seriously...okay then. *eye roll*
How about since they've already said limited number of sets at launch, then I'll go back to "Keep Healing Others to the bottom of the list of powers to come out some day in many years from launch" *thumbs up*
Sorry, as an RPer, one of the things I hate is the whole idea of "My power is to heal you of all wounds and death!" I'm not trying to RP in the Order of the Stick world. I want to RP in DC/Marvel-esque world. And one of the things I hated RPing in CoH was being wounded, because it always left you with the RPers that had "Oh! Look! I'm all about healing...you're no longer hurt...at all...((hey don't ignore my RP! That's my powerset! All about making it so you are never hurt...ever!))" :p

To many people Clairvoyance, ESP, Telekinesis, etc. would seem pretty magical. Not necessarily Super Powered. So yeah. Those can be put into a Magical sense. And if we are trying to get away from a Fantasy Realm of Swords and Magic, well......
Even playing in CoH I saw plenty of Raistlins and Drizzts running around the City fighting villains. If people want to play something like that they will.

Please. Obviously you're purposely playing dense with comics or really just never read them.
By you're own theory, cars to people in 1700 would seem magical and the work of witches, so that must make them magical.
A martial artist able to contort into almost impossible positions must be magical, because someone out there would think "That's magic!"
As to Jaybezz, yes, I know there are a few healers in the DC/Marvel universes. Never denied it, but they're not common and generally they're used sparingly for a reason.
And really, there wasn't a level or a mission I saw in CoX that one couldn't get by with just damage dealers, by any decent players who knew the game at all.

I'm going to throw out a few names and see if you recognize them.
Drizzt Do'Urden
Raistlin Majere
Caramon Majere
Kimmuriel Oblodra
Catti Brie
Cadderly Bonaduce
Danica Maupoissant
Artemis Entreri
All of those characters all have powers similar to something from City of Heroes. Yet they are "Fantasy" characters. There will always be a cross over as long as there are people who love to Role Play. As much as you want to try to take the Fantasy out of it, you will unfortunately fail. Somebody will always want to play a Drizzt, or a Cadderly, or any other Fantasy character that happens to be their favorite (Elric of Melnibone, Legolas, etc.)
And as for your lame reference to some person living in the 1700's seeing a car as magical, you are absolutely correct. It would be a thing of magic to them. Much like somebody moving something with their mind would be magic as well, or healing someone with a touch, or casting a fireball from the palm of their hand. "Your ancestors call it magic, but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same."

You're the one who was lame enough to say fire blasting was magic only. :p Like Human Torch never happened.

Sorry, i think you've stumbled into a tangent, Fire... the core of which is rooted in the nature of the mechanics of healing others in games, and how it runs counter to the genre.
The splinter that has been "fantasy vs. superheroes" is a narrow focus on a much greater issue.

The notion of self-healing is common in super hero adventure and was never a strong component of any of this discussion (not forgotten or ignored, but semi-mutually agreed to be not the issue)

The healing of others, on the other hand is significantly rare (in several universes of several hundred heroes and villains, there are less than 10 comic characters ever who could heal others directly and quickly)... and few if any characters can heal during combat with any regularity.

that said, the concept is a core element of Dungeons and Dragons, and has become a staple of all fantasy RPG gaming.

The axis of this whole discussion, is the notion that we have been playing our superhero game like a fantasy RPG... rather than having it function in a way that matches its source.
NOW, this core has been rhetorically blown out of proportion by various posters on both sides of the argument. As many have pointed out, CoX was not heavily driven by healing as a mitigation dynamic....
and yet, there was a consistent, co-opted belief by a large section of the COX playerbase that a healing set was "necessary" (hence Thermal Radiation, villains side)
this combination of a belief in instant healing's "necessity" and its general "unthemyness" is what has propelled the OP's supporters for all these posts.

GhostHack wrote:

Sorry, i think you've stumbled into a tangent, Fire... the core of which is rooted in the nature of the mechanics of healing others in games, and how it runs counter to the genre.
The splinter that has been "fantasy vs. superheroes" is a narrow focus on a much greater issue.
The notion of self-healing is common in super hero adventure and was never a strong component of any of this discussion (not forgotten or ignored, but semi-mutually agreed to be not the issue)
The healing of others, on the other hand is significantly rare (in several universes of several hundred heroes and villains, there are less than 10 comic characters ever who could heal others directly and quickly)... and few if any characters can heal during combat with any regularity.
that said, the concept is a core element of Dungeons and Dragons, and has become a staple of all fantasy RPG gaming.
The axis of this whole discussion, is the notion that we have been playing our superhero game like a fantasy RPG... rather than having it function in a way that matches its source.
NOW, this core has been rhetorically blown out of proportion by various posters on both sides of the argument. As many have pointed out, CoX was not heavily driven by healing as a mitigation dynamic....
and yet, there was a consistent, co-opted belief by a large section of the COX playerbase that a healing set was "necessary" (hence Thermal Radiation, villains side)
this combination of a belief in instant healing's "necessity" and its general "unthemyness" is what has propelled the OP's supporters for all these posts.

And my contention is that you are screaming at the ocean, saying it should not be wet. The reality is that MMO players expect some form of healing. Instead of telling them that healing is against your 'theme' and they should forget it, let's try figuring out a way for healing to Work in your theme.

The OP suggested balancing hit-point buffing with hit-point de-buffing. I have no problems with that. You seem to be arguing that there should not be any 'externally applied hit-point buffing' (ie healing) because the particular genre you're advocating could not think of a way to make hit-point buffing an interesting power. Why not conclude that we should only have 8 colors, while you're at it?

I admit it. I'm a reader of speculative fiction. I never got into comics. I never read Spiderman or any of the other staples of the genre. I was always having too much fun with the words and pictures in my head, to wonder about telling stories with pictures. In my genre, there are a million ways to do anything, including 'healing', so I have trouble accepting what seems like a Limitation.

So, again, I invite you to give up saying 'It can'/shouldn't be done' and start thinking of ways that it Can be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F15dgBzwOrc

Be Well!
Fireheart

Fireheart wrote:

GhostHack wrote:
Sorry, i think you've stumbled into a tangent, Fire... the core of which is rooted in the nature of the mechanics of healing others in games, and how it runs counter to the genre.
The splinter that has been "fantasy vs. superheroes" is a narrow focus on a much greater issue.
The notion of self-healing is common in super hero adventure and was never a strong component of any of this discussion (not forgotten or ignored, but semi-mutually agreed to be not the issue)
The healing of others, on the other hand is significantly rare (in several universes of several hundred heroes and villains, there are less than 10 comic characters ever who could heal others directly and quickly)... and few if any characters can heal during combat with any regularity.
that said, the concept is a core element of Dungeons and Dragons, and has become a staple of all fantasy RPG gaming.
The axis of this whole discussion, is the notion that we have been playing our superhero game like a fantasy RPG... rather than having it function in a way that matches its source.
NOW, this core has been rhetorically blown out of proportion by various posters on both sides of the argument. As many have pointed out, CoX was not heavily driven by healing as a mitigation dynamic....
and yet, there was a consistent, co-opted belief by a large section of the COX playerbase that a healing set was "necessary" (hence Thermal Radiation, villains side)
this combination of a belief in instant healing's "necessity" and its general "unthemyness" is what has propelled the OP's supporters for all these posts.

And my contention is that you are screaming at the ocean, saying it should not be wet. The reality is that MMO players expect some form of healing. Instead of telling them that healing is against your 'theme' and they should forget it, let's try figuring out a way for healing to Work in your theme.
The OP suggested balancing hit-point buffing with hit-point de-buffing. I have no problems with that. You seem to be arguing that there should not be any 'externally applied hit-point buffing' (ie healing) because the particular genre you're advocating could not think of a way to make hit-point buffing an interesting power. Why not conclude that we should only have 8 colors, while you're at it?
I admit it. I'm a reader of speculative fiction. I never got into comics. I never read Spiderman or any of the other staples of the genre. I was always having too much fun with the words and pictures in my head, to wonder about telling stories with pictures. In my genre, there are a million ways to do anything, including 'healing', so I have trouble accepting what seems like a Limitation.
So, again, I invite you to give up saying 'It can'/shouldn't be done' and start thinking of ways that it Can be done.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F15dgBzwOrc
Be Well!
Fireheart

Because MMO players expect something, doesn't mean it should be.

Some MMO players expect a pay to win system. Others do not.

And just because some of us read comics doesn't mean we didn't read other literature. :p Just because I don't care for Sword & Sorcery elements in my superhero genre, doesn't mean I don't care for sword & sorcery.

The problem isn't always that it's an option...and I don't mind the option...it just becomes over used. Like when people were running all those Fire Armor Tanks because...BURN! FOTY combos. Healer gets lumped into it, because so many feel the need to have it, but from an immersion/RP side of things...really...it's limited for a reason in this genre of fiction.

kitsune9tails wrote:

Check me on this; this is what I am hearing:
"Healing should not be mathematically more efficient than any other form of ally damage mitigation."
"Please take into consideration the possibility that healing may be perceived as more efficient than it is."
"Healing is not as prevalent in comics as in fantasy, have incentives for ally support to be more likely to be based on something other than healing."
... am I hearing anything close to what is being said?

I think you pretty much nailed it all Kitsune. I think the largest problem this thread has is the 2nd point... how healing is "perceived". Somebody sees a character use a direct heal and it breaks their perception of the comics where you never see that. You see characters use force fields and other powers, or have a high resolve so when they seem to get effectively pummeled and then get back up to take more and win the day.

An acceptable trade-off might be just to make healing less prominent and identifiable than it was in CoH, and is in other games. rather than have large burst ally targeted heals, integrate HoT and regen effects into other buffs and mitigation powers.

EXAMPLE: player A casts deflection field on player B... deflection field raises player B's defense, reducing the number of attacks that hit them. Deflection field also has a small regen/HoT component, causing Player B to recover their health more rapidly while affected by the force field. End Result: Deflection field protected the hero long enough for them to regain their composure and resolve to continue the fight.

For someone eager to use charged rhetoric like 'screaming at the ocean', fire... you sure are quick to get in a shouting match.

most proponents of the op have already stated that, apart from the nature of empathy as 'the healing set', empathy was a great buff set.

a solution to provide for those who desire to be 'the healer' while minimizing the 'necessity' of healing in general was also suggested, already.

GhostHack wrote:

For someone eager to use charged rhetoric like 'screaming at the ocean', fire... you sure are quick to get in a shouting match.

Yeah, I'm a little unstable right now. Finals, you know?

I'm usually pretty good at not getting directly in people's faces and I try to remember to de-escalate when things get too tense.

And I'm sorry, but I still find the 'it breaks my immersion' argument to be silly. At least, when it's applied to the choices of other players. Then again, when gold-sellers spam the chat-channels, it breaks my immersion. *grin*

As for the topic of this thread, I like playing a character who can heal others. I was a professional 'healer' (a licensed massage therapist) for fifteen years. My ego insists that I helped my clients to have a less painful life. I didn't throw around 'complete heal' or other green-glowing-balls-of-light, but I'd LOVE to be able to! First target would be my Own aching back.

To be honest, I think that CoH already did a great job of de-emphasizing the need for a 'heal-bot'. It broke the 'trinity' and I just don't see the need to nerf healing More. I usually played a Tanker, or Controller and usually either soloed, or duoed with an insane Regen Scrapper and we always had either more than enough healing or 'no way near enough'. When we were in a 'not enough' situation, it was usually because we miss-judged and the situation blew up on us. That's MMO-life and you can't resent dying from being stupid.

So, as I mentioned in my last post, this seems to be about 'bashing Empathy', which is silly, really, because if the 'strongest healzor' was Bubblegum Chewing, then the "Worshipers of the Trinity" would be asking 'Got Bubblegum?' and booting any player that wasn't chewing. If 'the healing set' was Not Empathy, then it would be something else and we'd be saying, "Bubblegum Chewing breaks my immersion!"

Be Well!
Fireheart

Fair to say, Fire, except that, without thermal and empathy... no set would effectively 'stand out' as a "healing" set, and healing would be absorbed fully into the umbrella of buffs'.
which I think is the bigger thrust of the overall argument. If we toned down the theming of those two sets (a likely scenario, given the suggested power customization system) and toned down their 'I'm the healing set!' Qualities to be more in line with other buff sets, there would be no discussion from 'our side'....

as was suggested, a healing based power pool would enable players who wanted to focus on healing (regardless oftheir primary set cchoices) the ability to pursue it, while maintaining the sensibility that there is no 'healing class' in the game.

I know it's not my fight, but Cross.... X is suggesting the tailor feature be immediately available to the player anywhere in the game... to remove it's physical presence and bring it to the players immediate fingertips, rather than having a place you must go to.
functionally suggesting taking a physical contact, and turning it into a cell phone call.
your camp loses NOTHING. If anything you gain fflexibility (since you aren't using the RP justification that it's actually a super-store anyway) while X get's to avoid dealing with a thematically stupid (from her perspective) facility who's only function is essentually meta-game in origin anyway.

Xander Cross wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Oh! So you think in reality, someone would open a shop at the mall strictly for Superhero attire, selling power gauntlets, ancient swords, rocket boots to just anyone.
Yeeeeaaaaaah...okay...and let me guess, you don't think it'd be the first target for a psycho villain? mhmmm...

In a city -full- of superheroes... what kind of enterprising entrepreneur would want to miss that kind of sales opportunity? And what kind of villain, even if they were psychotic, would attack a place where hundreds of heroes gathered at any given time? Psychotic doesn't mean stupid. Furthermore, how do you know the owner and staff aren't heroes themselves? Would anyone with a brain open up a shop for superheroes, knowing full well villains may attack, and not have some kind of effective security? Maybe they'd be able to handle said stupid villain even if the shop was devoid of other heroes. Finally, how could someone who supposedly RPs not come up with some kind of valid explanation for the possibility? I Don't RP, and I could still come up with likely hundreds of scenarios for you.
Brand X wrote:
Or D) a totally OOC disappear from the game completely and be taken to a costume creator screen...or just have to stand somewhere safe as you get into that costume creator that pops up in a window.
Then one can RP that OMG...they bought the pieces from multiple places, got them delivered from their government organization, got them delivered via their supergroup, or made them themselves in their basement or whatever.
Mall Shop for heroes to arrive at...yup...you say realistic...I say public bomb area for villains to attack and destroy and hurt many a civvie.

Guess what the point of RP is? to pretend something is a way it actually isn't. (i.e. you "play" the part of your character... but you aren't -actually- your character in reality).
Now, just because I don't RP myself, doesn't mean I have a problem with RP. It actually doesn't bother me one bit. But you want to actually take away a QoL feature... for the sake of making your personal RP more believable in the game environment? All I have to say to that is.... pfft, no thanks.
Your character can still "go shopping" at whatever fake store they want (that also isn't -in game- mind you) or get their stuff delivered from their government organization (which, also doesn't exhist in the game... unless you -RP- that your agency is one established in the game). you could say "No, I don't go to icon... 'insert reason here'".
Did you ever stop to think that maybe you can be accommodated without taking away from someone else? Maybe you could instead suggest that we -also- have a way to design extra character costumes from the character select screen, while retaining the in game tailor. That way, -you- still wouldn't have to go to the tailor if you didn't want to, and others could have their conveniences.

What quality of life feature am I taking again? Seriously? What QoL feature am I taking away? My suggestion still leaves you able to change your costumes. Still leaves you able to use an Auction House. The only difference with mine, is it's part of the UI and not "click on this NPC"

So what exactly am I trying to take away?

As to what type of villain? Joker comes to mind first. Deadpool is another (bit of an anti hero for sure...but most likely willing to do such a thing). And most importantly...my villain, in her hero disguise, as she plants explosives without anyone noticing, walking away with a smirk as she hits the switch. ;p

And with such security in a shop for heroes, why aren't all the other places upping their security to that level? It's expensive? Well just imagine how expensive those costume items like spandex must be to compensate for paying for such security levels.

See, can play that too.

I don't like the idea of that lore aspect. My opinion, and while I prefer to state it now before the game gets to alpha stage, feel happy and know, the devs will 99.9% most likely put in NPCs to establish a Superhero Retail Outlet that is 100% safe from villains, and an Auction House my villain can't rob, even though, you know, robbing an auction house seems very...villainy. :p

jai jobi khan wrote:

I felt the same way about my kat/regeneration scrapper. After being told by so many that I was wasting my time an regen sucks! Get WP!. I worked my tail off to become one with regen's play style. Spent hours tweaking my Mids build. Perfecting the timing needed to keep up with the big boys! An then it finally happen! The moments were things are going bad an some how you manage to survive said encounter because of your dedication too your character. There had been many times were I'm the last one standing( my best moment was fighting the crystal titan an outlasting everyone else!). Didn't have purples either. Plz don't nerf the underdog which made me feel great! Regen was a healer type but best believe we had to earn every victory in pve. And when someone did out performed me. The thought of nerfbat never crossed my mind. Be it Fire brute, Wp, fire kin, Rad/IIllusions... whoever!
(Never pvped but heard about regens.Didn't come along till I think i12 but heard about regen ability to "tank" hami back in the day. The nerf bat was regens best friend for a while from what I was told.

I think this thread is more about heal other powers than Regeneration.

So...now that we've managed to diverge into at least three topics (including Icon vs no Icon, Healing Set vs no Healing Set and yay Regen please don't nerf us!), can we settle down for a few minutes? I swear, if the people of this country debate politics this passionately it really WOULD be a whole new world! Let me try to break this down for those brave enough to come in late:

CoX endeavored to build an idea of what a city might look like in a world of supers. I've read enough fiction (and written some of it too) to realize that this is strictly a subjective thing because life would be SO different that we can't even imagine what it would be like. Firstly, imagine ALL the powers you've ever seen in the comics. Do you REALLY think a city could survive all of that? I don't think so. So let's PLEASE throw out any arguments based in reality because in the real world, life as portrayed in many of the comics wouldn't exist. This is a game about super-powered people. If you're not willing to suspend belief then you're going to be disappointed.

That being said, there is absolutely NO reason not to play both sides of the fence on this one. One of the few things CO did right was the Power House IMHO. When you level up you CAN go there, test your powers, change your costume or whatever. Or...you can click the little flashing button on your character's Power bar. Some people like choice A, some like choice B. I like red...you might like blue. Let's PLEASE not be hating on the other guy's fun just because it's not our idea of fun. Let the Devs decide which way they want to go (hopefully both as far as I'm concerned) and move on.

As to healing, we have as many opinions as we have contributors. I would appreciate it if most of them would stop trying to act like they represent the masses of players who secretly lurk behind them. If YOU think that Healing should be its own set, then say so. However STOP saying that 'the players will expect it' because we don't know WHAT the players will expect! Yes, CoT has been widely touted as the 'spiritual successor' to CoH but we've ALSO been screaming proudly that we're going to do some things differently. Some fundamental truths in CoH (like War Walls, having to take a train to another zone and ED) simply won't exist in CoT because the situations that prompted them WILL NOT EXIST.

For those that like the idea of playing a 'Healer': Are you willing to keep an open mind when changes are suggested? Are you willing to accept the idea that you can have a buffing character that CAN heal but of which Healing is only a small part? Are you willing to work with others (on both sides of the fence) to try to come up with something everyone can at least learn to live with?

For those that believe that we don't need a Healing set: Are you willing to keep an open mind when suggestions are made? Are you willing to accept the idea that some players WANT to play a character that can heal others as part of 'their thing?' Are you willing to work with them in order to come up with something they can play even if you'd rather not play the same thing?

Wanting to play a Healer in some way, shape or form is as valid an opinion as wanting to play any other type of character and I don't see anyone screaming 'We don't need Blasters!' They want to play people who heal other people...so let 'em.

Redlynne wrote:

GH wrote:
How about "ignore heals from other players"?
Also known as the "I want to Solo even when in a Team" option. Um ... at which point are you going to be wanting to turn this into a Massively Singleplayer Online Roleplaying Game?

Yes, obviously, from that one quote that is clearly what I am aiming for.

It's an option, we like options. It's re-using a much appreciated feature from that other game. It can be used by those RP'ing, those who don't like drive-by buffs, those who are attempting a challenge such as the rikti pylon who don't want your healing, thanks. And besides, in any MMO there are always a gazillion people soloing at any given point who aren't destroying the fabric of the game. See all other MMOs ever.

GhostHack wrote:

Fair to say, Fire, except that, without thermal and empathy... no set would effectively 'stand out' as a "healing" set, and healing would be absorbed fully into the umbrella of buffs'.

Don't forget Pain Domination ;)

GhostHack wrote:

I know it's not my fight, but Cross.... X is suggesting the tailor feature be immediately available to the player anywhere in the game... to remove it's physical presence and bring it to the players immediate fingertips, rather than having a place you must go to.
functionally suggesting taking a physical contact, and turning it into a cell phone call.
your camp loses NOTHING. If anything you gain fflexibility (since you aren't using the RP justification that it's actually a super-store anyway) while X get's to avoid dealing with a thematically stupid (from her perspective) facility who's only function is essentually meta-game in origin anyway.

If that's the case.. apparently I misread/misunderstood the suggestion about the tailor. I was thinking she(?) was asking to click a tailor icon, which would then take the character out of the game, and into the character creation screen to modify the costume. Which would remove the option to chat with friends etc while editing your costume or creating a new one.

I didn't go back and re-read it yet, perhaps I should. Was it also the intention with the removal of the auction house to have a GUI window open without selecting an NPC?

Either way. Those hubs did have uses.. like being alternate player gathering points (rather than -everyone- standing around Ms. Liberty with their costume GUI open for example). I'm fully -for- providing additional (and even possibly better) options to everyone. But I think great considerations should be made before simply removing options.

Brand X wrote:

Or D) a totally OOC disappear from the game completely and be taken to a costume creator screen...or just have to stand somewhere safe as you get into that costume creator that pops up in a window.

Brand X wrote:

What quality of life feature am I taking again? Seriously? What QoL feature am I taking away? My suggestion still leaves you able to change your costumes. Still leaves you able to use an Auction House. The only difference with mine, is it's part of the UI and not "click on this NPC"
So what exactly am I trying to take away?

The bolded portion there apparently made me misunderstand what you were asking for. I thought you wanted to remove the tailor "store" option and have the GUI option remove the character from the game to edit/create a costume. You have my apologies.

Brand X wrote:

I don't like the idea of that lore aspect. My opinion, and while I prefer to state it now before the game gets to alpha stage, feel happy and know, the devs will 99.9% most likely put in NPCs to establish a Superhero Retail Outlet that is 100% safe from villains, and an Auction House my villain can't rob, even though, you know, robbing an auction house seems very...villainy. :p

I agree with you, but I still don't think it should be removed from the game. The problem with the lore aspect is because it's a game aspect that had to have lore written around it to explain its exhistence. Honestly, moving the "tailor" to supergroup bases and personal hideouts would have been better and more closely mirror comics, since most of their gear, costumes etc were widely developed in-house (batman anyone?).

Thing is, places like the tailor and auction house create a player gathering point, which promotes interactions and also lets new players see that the game is not devoid of life. This was especially important in a game like CoH, where missions were heavily instanced and most everyone used established private chat channels instead of zone or global chat. This is the main reason I disagree with removing those locations from the game world.

True, but you could still hear the chat *ding* and exit the tailor to respond :)

and I've been playing a lot in CO lately. I've seen you there a few times.

Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread. In response to the OP:

Regarding "staying true to the genre" and your references to the stories in the movies and comic books: Stan Lee gave a great quote in his latest [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y]Stan's Rant[/url]. [b]"The person who would win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!"[/b]

Video game mechanics make implementing that mentality impossible, simply because there is no singular party deciding the outcome; the player has a certain degree of control over the outcome, but obviously not total. If the player did, there would be no fun in the game: we would essentially be playing a character through a predetermined set of actions in real time, thus eliminating the challenge around which games are designed. So, while it would indeed be very dramatic to triumph in a fight with a sliver of health left and no energy, there are too many variables outside of the player's control to guarantee that that "story" is told.

Allowing a player to set how much their character is affected by outside healing powers is a meritorious suggestion, and probably the best way to go about it. If a player wants to be able to build a character whose main power/purpose is keeping others alive, that player should be allowed to do so. If another player wants to build a character that is less affected by healing powers (for whatever justification), that player should also be allowed to do so.