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Discuss: What We Can Do: Augments and Refinements

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: What We Can Do: Augments and Refinements

aaaand teaser of course.

Read the Update Here

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MeSoSollyWan
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Awesome! Hype building as

Awesome! Hype building as always.

Female model looks great, too! Very Ronda Rousey.

Shadow Elusive
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It's not the default: I asked

It's not the default: I asked for the footage to be shot buff to make a point. Specifically, that in City of Titans, buff females are a thing. I wanted the difference to be clear. And if you like this, wait till they've had time to tweak the sliders for female. They aren't fully adapted from male yet. This is why this is a teaser. Next time, in depth reveal.

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Sweeet! Of course I'm gonna

Sweeet! Of course I'm gonna need to read through the full update when I get home from a night class at my college. Can't wait to start collecting these augments and refinements once the game comes out!

"If I am to die in battle, Remember me for who I was and not what I've become..."

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I'm happy ! Great job MWM.

I'm happy !
Great job MWM.

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So very cool gang!

So very cool gang!

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I had to put her through some

I had to put her through some rigorous training ;p :)

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Check out my CNC (and more) projects at http://www.mygarageworkshop.com

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

It's not the default: I asked for the footage to be shot buff to make a point. Specifically, that in City of Titans, buff females are a thing. I wanted the difference to be clear. And if you like this, wait till they've had time to tweak the sliders for female. They aren't fully adapted from male yet. This is why this is a teaser. Next time, in depth reveal.

Yeah it was always a bit weird that CoH had to compromise with having the "Male", "Female" and "Huge" body models (with the "Huge" one obviously being male only). It's good to see that you're able to make the standard male and female models in CoT capable of handling anything from "normal" to "huge" sizes all by themselves. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

alltrueist
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I loved both sides of the

I loved both sides of the update! As someone who likes to play concept-characters, but also likes to min-max within that concept, I love thinking about how to best empower my character.

However, I feel like a lot of jargon is being heaped on top of jargon, and it's a bit hard to follow because we have no idea how power creation/augmenting/enhancing works as a flow. I know you probably don't have anything ready yet, but it's hard to get a good sense of how this will all work when we don't know the very base, foundation layer yet.

I would love to get an update (video preferably, but at least screenshots) that walks us through a power, adding augments, adding enhancements, etc. Would really solidify the process, even if the UI isn't finalized yet.

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I am going to cram my attacks

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

rookslide
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Awesome update! Loving the

Awesome update! Loving the intricacies that have been baked into the augments and refinements! Several ways to enhance a character, change those choices, and maintain some mechanics balance! I love seeing this sort of work!

I’m dying to get my hands on the Chargen!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Lothic
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

Aren't diminishing returns built into this game's foundation? Just saying your plan here is probably going to be wasteful of slots the same way they made CoH work.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Tannim222
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alltrueist wrote:
alltrueist wrote:

I loved both sides of the update! As someone who likes to play concept-characters, but also likes to min-max within that concept, I love thinking about how to best empower my character.

However, I feel like a lot of jargon is being heaped on top of jargon, and it's a bit hard to follow because we have no idea how power creation/augmenting/enhancing works as a flow. I know you probably don't have anything ready yet, but it's hard to get a good sense of how this will all work when we don't know the very base, foundation layer yet.

I would love to get an update (video preferably, but at least screenshots) that walks us through a power, adding augments, adding enhancements, etc. Would really solidify the process, even if the UI isn't finalized yet.

I know you asked for a video, and you may be a visual learner, but here is a simple break down of the process. I hope this helps for now.

At character creation and at level intervals thereafter, you get power slots where you choose what powers you want. Powers are available from your Primary, Secondary, and eventually Tertiary sets. Each power has a level gate before you can choose it. So you can choose a tier 9 power at level 2.

Your power comes with a base Augment Socket. At regular level intervals you get Augment Sockets you can choose to assign to a power. Up to 4 max sockets are allowed per power (1 base+3 assigned).

Only Augments go into Augment Sockets.

Later, through crafting, you will be able to craft Augments that come with Refinement Sockets. This is where you will get to place Refinements.

The more rare the crafted Augment, the more Refinement Sockets it comes with, 1, 2, or 3 max.

For launch we’re aiming to have a crafted Aug with 1 Ref Socket.


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Tannim222
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
notears wrote:

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

Aren't diminishing returns built into this game's foundation? Just saying your plan here is probably going to be wasteful of slots the same way they made CoH work.

Refinements provide a qualitative improvement, not quantitative. In other words, there are diminishing returns.


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notears
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
notears wrote:

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

Aren't diminishing returns built into this game's foundation? Just saying your plan here is probably going to be wasteful of slots the same way they made CoH work.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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I'm a bit disappointed by the

I'm a bit disappointed by the max 5 tert sets. What if I want a jack-of-trades character?

Maybe only 5 SLOTTED tert sets, and if you choose 7 or 8, the rest would be unslotted.


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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

It's not the default: I asked for the footage to be shot buff to make a point. Specifically, that in City of Titans, buff females are a thing. I wanted the difference to be clear. And if you like this, wait till they've had time to tweak the sliders for female. They aren't fully adapted from male yet. This is why this is a teaser. Next time, in depth reveal.

Good call. I think that was a good move to show you are really taking this avatar creator seriously.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm a bit disappointed by the max 5 tert sets. What if I want a jack-of-trades character?

Maybe only 5 SLOTTED tert sets, and if you choose 7 or 8, the rest would be unslotted.

There are several reasons for this.
One has to do with limiting the total number of Global Boosters you can have.

Another has to do with when Tertiary Sets open up, and how many total power slots you get access to.

Could we have made it so you could pick as many Tert sets as you want and have 1 power from each one! Sure, but then we have to use code the Boosters themselves to be limited, bitnthe Sockets and then give something else for those Sockets to use along with Global Boosters.

And really, if you think about it, you could make with 5 Tertiary sets: 1 protection Tertiary, a ranged Tertiary, melee Tertiary, control Tertiary, and 1 support Tertiary. . You will only have a few powers from your primary and secondary. That is rather a “jack of all trades” character.


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avelworldcreator
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And no comments on that cape?

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

Well, we had seen a lot of capes in a reveal last yearin 2016. But yes, you did a very good job of keeping the cape from strangling or blinding the character without it looking unnaturally restricted.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Oh yeah! The cape is perfect!

Oh yeah! The cape is perfect! No clipping, but has enough gravity to fall "naturally" (what we expect to see )


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DesViper
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm a bit disappointed by the max 5 tert sets. What if I want a jack-of-trades character?

Maybe only 5 SLOTTED tert sets, and if you choose 7 or 8, the rest would be unslotted.

There are several reasons for this.
One has to do with limiting the total number of Global Boosters you can have.

Another has to do with when Tertiary Sets open up, and how many total power slots you get access to.

Could we have made it so you could pick as many Tert sets as you want and have 1 power from each one! Sure, but then we have to use code the Boosters themselves to be limited, bitnthe Sockets and then give something else for those Sockets to use along with Global Boosters.

And really, if you think about it, you could make with 5 Tertiary sets: 1 protection Tertiary, a ranged Tertiary, melee Tertiary, control Tertiary, and 1 support Tertiary. . You will only have a few powers from your primary and secondary. That is rather a “jack of all trades” character.

Fair point, I forget your terts will be much better than CoH


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Great short video. Great

Great short video. Great update for augments and refinements. Short, sweet, to the point. Now to try and log off for a month until the next update.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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Very nice guys - on both the

Very nice guys - on both the Refinement/Augment front and the Character Creator front. So shiny.....so glowy....

Hmm - would there be any way for the player to modify the "weight" of their cape within certain limits - to make them seem a bit "heavier" - or would that throw off the system as-is and open the door for clipping and the like?

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Loved the costume/avatar

Loved the costume/avatar video. Especially the glowing line patterns on the costume and the wrist bands.

Also loved the explanation of how the Augments and Refinements work. One thing I would suggest though is to make the colors on the augments and refinements themselves darker. The bright pastel colors on some of them make it hard to see the white foreground icons they have. ON the "Extension" one the white icon was almost invisible against the backdrop of the very light blue/grey it had. That or make the icons a darker color like black or something.

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jtpaull wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

Great short video. Great update for augments and refinements. Short, sweet, to the point. Now to try and log off for a month until the next update.

Coming from you that's a good sign! I keep thinking of "Mikey" from a cereal commercial years back with you. ;p

In short, thanks!

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Zero cape clip. So very good

Zero cape clip. So very good.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
notears wrote:

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

Aren't diminishing returns built into this game's foundation? Just saying your plan here is probably going to be wasteful of slots the same way they made CoH work.

Refinements provide a qualitative improvement, not quantitative. In other words, there are diminishing returns.

The Refinements I saw were for stuff like Accuracy, Recharge Rate, Range, Crit Rate, etc. I do believe all of those things are quantities that bear a numerical value somewhere, in some way. What is Range if not a measure of distance? What is Recharge Rate if not a measure of time? Several of the others are percentage chances of success, etc.

To me, "qualitative" might apply to things like "is it a targeted power or non-targeted?" or "is it a cone or a circulare area effect?" or "is it passive or a toggle?" but when you get into "what are the chances I hit when I use it?" and "How far away is it's maximum range?" those sound quite quantitative, in fact.

What am I missing here?

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I liked this update a lot,

I liked this update a lot, both the teaser and the Aug/Ref details. I can't say I fully understand the Augs/Refs, but there's probably no way for me to really 'get' them 100% till I try them in the game. If things like +Acc, +Dam, and +Recharge go only in Ref slots and if regular Augs won't have Ref slots, it will be an interesting change not to be able to make these modifications to our powers right from the outset, but only after crafting. That may take a bit of getting used to for players of the old game, but that shouldn't take too long.

[EDIT: Oops I see +Dam is an Aug, but +Acc, +Rech, and +Range are still Refs]

I love the way the Augs & Refs' appearance echoes the feel of Enhancements from the old game while bringing something fresh to the table. That in a nutshell encompasses what I am hoping for from the game overall. I do have to say I agree with Radiac that the pastels on the icons look a bit odd though. Are these final? Maybe there's a reason they are not in more primary colours?

MeSoSollyWan wrote:

Female model looks great, too! Very Ronda Rousey.

Agreed. And I appreciate Shadow's reasoning for this.

Also loved the capes! I'd like to second Interdictor's request to be able to modify the weight of the cape. Maybe not at launch, but it would be a nice bonus feature.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

...

What am I missing here?

Buying the team a pizza maybe?

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
notears wrote:

I am going to cram my attacks full of crit and damage

Aren't diminishing returns built into this game's foundation? Just saying your plan here is probably going to be wasteful of slots the same way they made CoH work.

Refinements provide a qualitative improvement, not quantitative. In other words, there are diminishing returns.

The Refinements I saw were for stuff like Accuracy, Recharge Rate, Range, Crit Rate, etc. I do believe all of those things are quantities that bear a numerical value somewhere, in some way. What is Range if not a measure of distance? What is Recharge Rate if not a measure of time? Several of the others are percentage chances of success, etc.

To me, "qualitative" might apply to things like "is it a targeted power or non-targeted?" or "is it a cone or a circulare area effect?" or "is it passive or a toggle?" but when you get into "what are the chances I hit when I use it?" and "How far away is it's maximum range?" those sound quite quantitative, in fact.

What am I missing here?

I was speaking specifically to stacking Refs. Multiple of the same Refs experience diminishing returns. They’re qualitive in how they improve rather than directly quantitive. There are numbers for all the values of a power, there are values for Refs and what they represent. Just like two 25% Augs don’t directly result in a 50% improvement, Refs work similarly. If you have two 20% Accuracy Refs won’t directly result in a 40% improvement to Accuracy.

The colors aren’t pastels, they are actually see-through and the white background has that effect is all. These are the mock-up 2d art before the asset design.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Your power comes with a base Augment Socket. At regular level intervals you get Augment Sockets you can choose to assign to a power. Up to 4 max sockets are allowed per power (1 base+3 assigned).

The more rare the crafted Augment, the more Refinement Sockets it comes with, 1, 2, or 3 max.

Augment sockets 1-4 ... good.
Refinement sockets 0-3 ... I find myself wondering if there's a reason why the refinement sockets aren't 0-4. Is it that you're considering the base Augment itself, so as to yield a 1 + (1 to 3) = 1 to 4 result in order to keep the "blocks" even and regular in presentation in the UI?

One of the things that I found less than satisfying with City of Heroes was the way it tried to divide things by threes ...
1 PC = 3 Minions
100% = 3 Single Origin Enhancements (Schedule A)
... and so on, which wound up producing "wonky" math at times courtesy of decimal point math and the need to reduce down to integers (at some point).

As I advocated for (years ago now), I'm thinking that City of Titans would be well served by switching from 3s to 4s as its base numerical building block numerology for equivalencies.

Quote:

When we make a power in our Power Designer system, we start off with a value called a Power Rating. This Power Rating goes through a series of modifiers for each aspect of a power, such as the base accuracy, the commonality of damage type, the area of effect, duration and so on. Once the power is designed we end up with a value called Output.

By now you may be wondering why all the trouble? Each pipeline, or formula for Output, is designed to provide its own form of diminishing returns. When powers are improved by Augments or stacking of effects, they follow the Output formula.

Output is fed through a pipeline based on the power’s effect. Damage goes through the damage pipeline, Resistance goes through the Protection pipeline, and, well you get the idea. The pipeline applies a conversion formula which results in the final in-game value of the effect.

For example, a Protection Power, let us say this is a Physical Resistance power, has an output of 3. For a Primary Power, this Output results in 6% Resance. If you were to have another 3 output, or a 100% improvement, you have 6 output, or 10% Resistance. The more Output applied through the effect pipeline, the higher the in-game value is up to a point. As you can see, doubling the Output from 3 to 6 didn’t result in doubling the in-game value from 6%.

A power’s effect Output is improved by the combined percentage value of the Augments applied to the power. If you apply 2 +25% Augments for a 50% improvement, the effect of the power will have its Output improved by 50%. Don’t worry, we'll make sure you can see the real potential results for any augment you're considering.

If you're EVER going to have a 3rd party software equivalent to Mids' you're going to have to reveal the mathematical formulas behind all this at some point. I'll freely grant that we haven't reached that juncture just yet, but it's going to need to happen eventually ... if for no other reason than to allow Players to VERIFY that the game mechanics are behaving properly and as intended (something that Arcanaville had to do THE HARD WAY with Cryptic Studios!) in order to backstop Quality Assurance in this all important regime of game mechanics.

The time for the Show Your Work step hasn't arrived yet ... but it will, before game launch.

Quote:

The Augments you earn will have a level to them. The Augment’s level is checked against your character’s level and if you are over or under the Augment’s level, the improvement bonus will be adjusted. The adjusted value is based on a curve which starts off gradual and then declines sharply for both going over and under the level. You won’t have to immediately replace Augments when you out level them, and will always receive some bonus from them. For example, if your level is increased by joining a team, causing you to temporarily outlevel your Augment, you won’t be high and dry. Of course your adjusted level will affect how your powers perform as well.

When you Plan an Augment (that is crafted - we will get to that in time), you won’t have to worry about adjusted Augment values. This is especially important for when you get to make the Augments carrying Refinements.

The WISDOM of what you're saying here is ... debatable ... depending on the interpretation of what you're saying.

The default assumption is to follow the City of Heroes example with regards to Mentoring/Sidekicking. Originally, when we just had Training Origin (TO), Dual Origin (DO), Single Origin (SO) and Hamidon Origin (HO) Enhancements, the CURRENT Level of your PC was functionally irrelevant to the "effectiveness" of your Enhancements. That was because the "throughput" of the Enhancements was entirely relative to your ACTUAL Level (when not being Mentored or Sidekicked), rather than to your CURRENT Level (while Mentored or Sidekicked). Owing to the fact that these Enhancements "aged out" and needed to be replaced when the Enhancement Level feel to -4 (or more) below Actual Character Level, there was an ongoing pressure to afford replacements until reaching Level Cap (at which point they never needed to be replaced ever again and would remain "eternal" in their function, regardless of Mentoring/Sidekicking).

That (obviously) changed with Invention Origins (IO), since the "yield" of the IOs was keyed to each IO's respective Level ... AND ... if your PC's Current Level ever dropped below -4 of an IO's Level, then that IO simply stopped yielding any benefits to your PC (it "switched off" effectively). This then created a push/pull dynamic in which is was possible to gain greater power at the cost of having that greater power in a narrower range of content, with the absolute Max Case Scenario of slotting Level 50 IOs into everything (for maximum yield) provided that your PC only played Level 47+ content ... since at Levels 1-46 your IOs "switched off" and stopped yielding benefits for you. The difference was that IOs never "aged out" in an upwards direction, meaning that you could have Level 10 IOs still working for you at PC Level 50, unlike HO/SO/DO/TO Enhancements.

Of the two methods, I honestly feel that the TO/DO/SO/HO system was the superior method, in part because it created more "churn" (and therefore, demand) for Enhancements while leveling up, while at the same time making Mentoring/Sidekicking as much of a non-issue as possible for grouping. The only downside to the system was that at the Level Cap that demand/churn disappeared completely. The Invention method however created an artificial "floor" below which there was a very strong incentive to NOT Sidekick down to, due to Inventions "switching off" when Sidekicking down low enough (as determined by the Level on each IO). The net result was a sort of Designed Breakpoint for the optimal Level of each IO Enhancement, which typically corresponded to (IO Level - 3) for any of a number of Task Forces, since those Task Forces were repeatable content.
Synapse Task Force had a max Level cap of 19. Optimal IO Level for that content was Level 22 IOs.
Sister Psyche Task Force had a max Level cap of 24. Optimal IO Level for that content was Level 27 IOs.
... and so on and so forth.

As always, the demonic influence is in the details, so you're going to need to provide us with the math and charts that plot the decay curves before really INFORMED feedback can be given on this point. However, the marker that I want to lay down is (again) the notion that keying Augment effectiveness off ACTUAL Character Level (when not being Mentored/Sidekicked) is a superior system to keying Augment effectiveness to CURRENT Character Level like you are intimating here, if only because the former is less of an impediment to freely Sidekicking (or even just running Flashbacks!) to run content together with anyone and everyone, while the latter imposes costs and barriers to playing "outside your native Level range" that would then discourage such free associations and grouping (not preventing it, but certainly penalizing it).

Quote:

Refinements get placed into an Augment’s Refinement Sockets. Basic Augments don’t provide them, so you will have to craft them through Planning or deal in the player market for them. Refinement Sockets are also where you will get to place any special procedural random occurrence Refinements (more commonly known as Procs). This is for balance reasons, so you don’t have to weigh the Proc against an Augment, and also gives incentive to get better Planned Augments with more Refinement Sockets to use up.

Clarification is required.
Do Augments WITHOUT Refinement sockets offer the exact same "throughput" math bonuses as Augments WITH Refinement sockets?

I ask this because of the inevitable Best in Slot min/max mentality that I can already anticipate taking hold. In other words, if there are no "downsides" to going for 3 Refinement sockets, only upsides, you're going to wind up with an awful lot of cookie cutters, because a "3" Augment is going to be IN ALL WAYS THAT MATTER a "better" choice than a "0" Augment, regardless of any other considerations (other than scarcity of Refinement slots to allocate). On its face, this does not seem to be a tenable stance to take.
1 + 0 = 1
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
1 + 3 = 4
Which gives the best return on investment? Well, 1+3=4 ... obviously, because 1+0=1 can't compete qualitatively with 1+3=4.

Please explain what ... if any ... downsides there might be in choosing more Refinement slots over less?
If the answer is NONE then you have failed a very basic principle of game design involving Planned Obsolescence that ought to be gnawing on your brain already.

Quote:

To achieve this, we begin by looking at PPPM, or probable procs per minute.

I approve of this choice. Normalizing proc rates over time is the way to go for this sort of thing.

=====

I know that this first look is extremely bare bones with very little detail to flesh things out, but in many ways I'm left with as many (if not more!) questions after reading this than I had before it was released. Mainly that's just a matter of Demonology Depends On Details in order to be able to reach firm conclusions about the wisdom of the choices being made in the design.


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Great stuff. Very much

Great stuff. Very much looking forward to having a play around with this.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I was speaking specifically to stacking Refs. Multiple of the same Refs experience mink moshing returns.

I know this is probably a result of Tannim's typing on his phone, but I so wish 'mink moshing' were a real thing.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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capes looked good just moved

capes looked good just moved a bit too crazy, and was hoping to see one that wasn't shiny. But awesome job!

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Yay for theorycrafting update

Yay for theorycrafting (or 'meta' as the kids say) update! Thank you!

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

The best Special Effects are the ones that no one notices.

The reason for that saying is because when you do it RIGHT, everyone just takes it for granted and ACCEPTS it, rather than getting distracted by it (or worse, noticing what's wrong with it!).

Interdictor wrote:

Hmm - would there be any way for the player to modify the "weight" of their cape within certain limits - to make them seem a bit "heavier" - or would that throw off the system as-is and open the door for clipping and the like?

Hmm ... "stiffness" of the material and the "weight" of the material would seem to be important parameters. A heavy wool cloak (weighing a few pounds) would hang/fall and "flutter" differently when moved than a lighter/thinner cotton "bedsheet" cape would. Likewise a shorter cape (say, wearing a towel around your shoulders like a Hitchhiker might) would be lighter and less stiff than an oiled leather cape or a ballistic (multi-layered) kevlar cape that hangs from shoulders to the ground.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Your power comes with a base Augment Socket. At regular level intervals you get Augment Sockets you can choose to assign to a power. Up to 4 max sockets are allowed per power (1 base+3 assigned).

The more rare the crafted Augment, the more Refinement Sockets it comes with, 1, 2, or 3 max.

Augment sockets 1-4 ... good.
Refinement sockets 0-3 ... I find myself wondering if there's a reason why the refinement sockets aren't 0-4. Is it that you're considering the base Augment itself, so as to yield a 1 + (1 to 3) = 1 to 4 result in order to keep the "blocks" even and regular in presentation in the UI.

Ref sockets in Augments were specifically designed to be in 3s because of the great amount of flexibility they provide. The potential of 12 sockets is huge. 16 would take things too far over time.

[quot Reflynne]One of the things that I found less than satisfying with City of Heroes was the way it tried to divide things by threes ...
1 PC = 3 Minions
100% = 3 Single Origin Enhancements (Schedule A)
... and so on, which wound up producing "wonky" math at times courtesy of decimal point math and the need to reduce down to integers (at some point).

As I advocated for (years ago now), I'm thinking that City of Titans would be well served by switching from 3s to 4s as its base numerical building block numerology for equivalencies.

One does not have to do with the other. We could have an Aug with 3 ref sockets and have a different spawning ratio. Which we do.

Redlynne wrote:
Quote:

When we make a power in our Power Designer system, we start off with a value called a Power Rating. This Power Rating goes through a series of modifiers for each aspect of a power, such as the base accuracy, the commonality of damage type, the area of effect, duration and so on. Once the power is designed we end up with a value called Output.

By now you may be wondering why all the trouble? Each pipeline, or formula for Output, is designed to provide its own form of diminishing returns. When powers are improved by Augments or stacking of effects, they follow the Output formula.

Output is fed through a pipeline based on the power’s effect. Damage goes through the damage pipeline, Resistance goes through the Protection pipeline, and, well you get the idea. The pipeline applies a conversion formula which results in the final in-game value of the effect.

For example, a Protection Power, let us say this is a Physical Resistance power, has an output of 3. For a Primary Power, this Output results in 6% Resance. If you were to have another 3 output, or a 100% improvement, you have 6 output, or 10% Resistance. The more Output applied through the effect pipeline, the higher the in-game value is up to a point. As you can see, doubling the Output from 3 to 6 didn’t result in doubling the in-game value from 6%.

A power’s effect Output is improved by the combined percentage value of the Augments applied to the power. If you apply 2 +25% Augments for a 50% improvement, the effect of the power will have its Output improved by 50%. Don’t worry, we'll make sure you can see the real potential results for any augment you're considering.

If you're EVER going to have a 3rd party software equivalent to Mids' you're going to have to reveal the mathematical formulas behind all this at some point. I'll freely grant that we haven't reached that juncture just yet, but it's going to need to happen eventually ... if for no other reason than to allow Players to VERIFY that the game mechanics are behaving properly and as intended (something that Arcanaville had to do THE HARD WAY with Cryptic Studios!) in order to backstop Quality Assurance in this all important regime of game mechanics.

The time for the Show Your Work step hasn't arrived yet ... but it will, before game launch.

More advanced options for players will be made available. Players will have plenty of information at their fingertips.

Redlynne wrote:
Quote:

The Augments you earn will have a level to them. The Augment’s level is checked against your character’s level and if you are over or under the Augment’s level, the improvement bonus will be adjusted. The adjusted value is based on a curve which starts off gradual and then declines sharply for both going over and under the level. You won’t have to immediately replace Augments when you out level them, and will always receive some bonus from them. For example, if your level is increased by joining a team, causing you to temporarily outlevel your Augment, you won’t be high and dry. Of course your adjusted level will affect how your powers perform as well.

When you Plan an Augment (that is crafted - we will get to that in time), you won’t have to worry about adjusted Augment values. This is especially important for when you get to make the Augments carrying Refinements.

The WISDOM of what you're saying here is ... debatable ... depending on the interpretation of what you're saying.

The default assumption is to follow the City of Heroes example with regards to Mentoring/Sidekicking. Originally, when we just had Training Origin (TO), Dual Origin (DO), Single Origin (SO) and Hamidon Origin (HO) Enhancements, the CURRENT Level of your PC was functionally irrelevant to the "effectiveness" of your Enhancements. That was because the "throughput" of the Enhancements was entirely relative to your ACTUAL Level (when not being Mentored or Sidekicked), rather than to your CURRENT Level (while Mentored or Sidekicked). Owing to the fact that these Enhancements "aged out" and needed to be replaced when the Enhancement Level feel to -4 (or more) below Actual Character Level, there was an ongoing pressure to afford replacements until reaching Level Cap (at which point they never needed to be replaced ever again and would remain "eternal" in their function, regardless of Mentoring/Sidekicking).

That (obviously) changed with Invention Origins (IO), since the "yield" of the IOs was keyed to each IO's respective Level ... AND ... if your PC's Current Level ever dropped below -4 of an IO's Level, then that IO simply stopped yielding any benefits to your PC (it "switched off" effectively). This then created a push/pull dynamic in which is was possible to gain greater power at the cost of having that greater power in a narrower range of content, with the absolute Max Case Scenario of slotting Level 50 IOs into everything (for maximum yield) provided that your PC only played Level 47+ content ... since at Levels 1-46 your IOs "switched off" and stopped yielding benefits for you. The difference was that IOs never "aged out" in an upwards direction, meaning that you could have Level 10 IOs still working for you at PC Level 50, unlike HO/SO/DO/TO Enhancements.

Of the two methods, I honestly feel that the TO/DO/SO/HO system was the superior method, in part because it created more "churn" (and therefore, demand) for Enhancements while leveling up, while at the same time making Mentoring/Sidekicking as much of a non-issue as possible for grouping. The only downside to the system was that at the Level Cap that demand/churn disappeared completely. The Invention method however created an artificial "floor" below which there was a very strong incentive to NOT Sidekick down to, due to Inventions "switching off" when Sidekicking down low enough (as determined by the Level on each IO). The net result was a sort of Designed Breakpoint for the optimal Level of each IO Enhancement, which typically corresponded to (IO Level - 3) for any of a number of Task Forces, since those Task Forces were repeatable content.
Synapse Task Force had a max Level cap of 19. Optimal IO Level for that content was Level 22 IOs.
Sister Psyche Task Force had a max Level cap of 24. Optimal IO Level for that content was Level 27 IOs.
... and so on and so forth.

As always, the demonic influence is in the details, so you're going to need to provide us with the math and charts that plot the decay curves before really INFORMED feedback can be given on this point. However, the marker that I want to lay down is (again) the notion that keying Augment effectiveness off ACTUAL Character Level (when not being Mentored/Sidekicked) is a superior system to keying Augment effectiveness to CURRENT Character Level like you are intimating here, if only because the former is less of an impediment to freely Sidekicking (or even just running Flashbacks!) to run content together with anyone and everyone, while the latter imposes costs and barriers to playing "outside your native Level range" that would then discourage such free associations and grouping (not preventing it, but certainly penalizing it).

We don't have TO/DO...gradations to basic Augments. They aren't necessary with how we set the level curves for the improvement values.

Redlynne wrote:
Quote:

Refinements get placed into an Augment’s Refinement Sockets. Basic Augments don’t provide them, so you will have to craft them through Planning or deal in the player market for them. Refinement Sockets are also where you will get to place any special procedural random occurrence Refinements (more commonly known as Procs). This is for balance reasons, so you don’t have to weigh the Proc against an Augment, and also gives incentive to get better Planned Augments with more Refinement Sockets to use up.

Clarification is required.
Do Augments WITHOUT Refinement sockets offer the exact same "throughput" math bonuses as Augments WITH Refinement sockets?

I ask this because of the inevitable Best in Slot min/max mentality that I can already anticipate taking hold. In other words, if there are no "downsides" to going for 3 Refinement sockets, only upsides, you're going to wind up with an awful lot of cookie cutters, because a "3" Augment is going to be IN ALL WAYS THAT MATTER a "better" choice than a "0" Augment, regardless of any other considerations (other than scarcity of Refinement slots to allocate). On its face, this does not seem to be a tenable stance to take.
1 + 0 = 1
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
1 + 3 = 4
Which gives the best return on investment? Well, 1+3=4 ... obviously, because 1+0=1 can't compete qualitatively with 1+3=4.

Please explain what ... if any ... downsides there might be in choosing more Refinement slots over less?
If the answer is NONE then you have failed a very basic principle of game design involving Planned Obsolescence that ought to be gnawing on your brain already.

Yes, they have the same values. We discussed higher / lower values, but they proved to be unnecessary. Basic Augs are for those who don't want to mess with crafting or auctioning. The game, at base difficulty is designed to be perfectly playable using Basic Augs.

Obtaining more diverse Augments does not need to come with a resulting reduced Augment improvement just because it gives more Refinement sockets. Refinements improve different aspects of your power than Augments. They provide different functions. The over-all result is that the more diverse the Augment the more overall value you get for your improvement. And yes, we're aware that min-max players will strive for the very rare Augment crafted Augments with 3 ref sockets.

By then, we'll be looking at also having Aug / Ref Sets with set bonuses as on top of everything else. Resulting in a very deep level of expansion into improving your powers without having to resort to what you think we should do.


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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

Oh, I'm sure Edna will have lots of comments about the capes. To which I will reply: "Velcro attachment points. So, nyahhh!"

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Redlynne]
Redlynne wrote:
Quote:

To achieve this, we begin by looking at PPPM, or probable procs per minute.

I approve of this choice. Normalizing proc rates over time is the way to go for this sort of thing.

I'm not in total agreement. But then it depends on what is proc'ing.

Let's say, for argument sake that we are talking about two un-augmented attacks that each do 10 damage per second. One of them attacks every 2 seconds and does 20 damage. The other attacks every 10 seconds and does 100 damage. If we have a proc that adds an additional 100% damage and a 50% chance to proc per attack, then the total output is the same 15DPS.

In a short battle, the more rapid attacks will likely proc more often and the slower attack might not proc at all before the battle is over. But in a longer battle the more rapid attacks proc'ing add more of a damage pressure onto the target, while the slower attacks make a far more spikey damage profile. Veteran gamers will know that spikes damage is almost always better because its harder to heal.

But either way, the damage per second for each attack is the same 15 after the proc's are taken into account.

However, in this situation changing the proc's from a flat percentage chance per attack into a proc per minute as has been proposed actually gives a very significant advantage to the slower attacks. So if we say that it is established to proc once every 10 seconds, the rapid attacks would only proc every fifth attack, which means the DPS would be 11. Meanwhile the slow attack would proc every time, providing a DPS of 20.

On the other hand, if we are talking about a proc that generates an effect, like a stun or interrupt or slow or a DoT, then proc's per minute is the way to go, since it normalizes the effect over time, regardless of the attack it is assigned to.

I hope that CoT will take the nature of the proc into account.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Worth sharing, from

Worth sharing, from darnstrong's thread, https://cityoftitans.com/comment/143662#comment-143662 :

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The problem Huck, isn’t at

The problem Huck, isn’t at base, but where you can build from there. When you are looking st high end performance, procs in general are always more advantageous in fast recharging powers. Especially if you can build it so that the power recharges as fast as or almost as fast as the cast time.

Then you need a couple of attacks in a chain with a proc in each and over a minute you will have better results than ever placing them in slower powers not typically used in a chain.

When you adjust the proc rate for time, then it becomes a matter of discernment of the player where to place procs and how you are building a character.

A 20% proc nance in a 120 second recharging power would not be as good as a 20% proc rate in a 1 second recharging power.

When you have powers that cast in less than a second and potentially Reduce the recharge rate to meet that cast time...

It is a problem that many other games don’t have to address because the ability to reduce recharge time isn’t common. There may be some ways to do so, but not always directly in the power and globally at the same time.

That is why we adjust for procs over time. It also uses the same code for when procs are placed in area effect damage over time powers. Proc-trops has they are called in the old game - prior to proc rate adjustments were just nasty in dealing damage.


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Nice - I really like how the

Nice - I really like how the Augments and Refinements fit together.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The problem Huck, isn’t at base, but where you can build from there. When you are looking st high end performance, procs in general are always more advantageous in fast recharging powers. Especially if you can build it so that the power recharges as fast as or almost as fast as the cast time.

Then you need a couple of attacks in a chain with a proc in each and over a minute you will have better results than ever placing them in slower powers not typically used in a chain.

When you adjust the proc rate for time, then it becomes a matter of discernment of the player where to place procs and how you are building a character.

A 20% proc nance in a 120 second recharging power would not be as good as a 20% proc rate in a 1 second recharging power.

When you have powers that cast in less than a second and potentially Reduce the recharge rate to meet that cast time...

It is a problem that many other games don’t have to address because the ability to reduce recharge time isn’t common. There may be some ways to do so, but not always directly in the power and globally at the same time.

That is why we adjust for procs over time. It also uses the same code for when procs are placed in area effect damage over time powers. Proc-trops has they are called in the old game - prior to proc rate adjustments were just nasty in dealing damage.

I'm sorry Tannim222, but I'm having difficulty trying to understand your post. It seems that parts did not actually counter what I put forward.

Not only that, but I know quite a few communities who disagree that weak rapid powers are the best for damage procs (if they are % damage, not flat damage amounts) because of the greater effect that spike damage has. A proc'd crit snipe can one-shot an opponent. That is always worth more than a small damage amount that proc's frequently. But this is opinion.

Was there something in my post that was not clear? It was all just math, not opinion; so I'd be happy to restate it more clearly and then you can tell me where I was wrong.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So that video said “avatar

So that video said “avatar builder beta 2018”

Does that mean the beta of the game that was touted for 2018 is now being replaced by the avatar builder?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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So many numbers @.@

So many numbers @.@

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Very nice! The biggest

Very nice! The biggest distraction the cape was, "So shiny!" But that's a good thing! As has been pointed out often enough, just because it's not an option I may ever use doesn't make it a bad option to have.

One request I have is to increase the color saturation on the icons. Pastels never really worked for me, especially when it's something that really needs to "pop".

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

So that video said “avatar builder beta 2018”

Does that mean the beta of the game that was touted for 2018 is now being replaced by the avatar builder?

Our license only allows for one product. The Avatar Builder is part of that product, not independent of it. Our target right now is to get the game into Beta form, with the Avatar Builder the first component people will have access to. As it is the first milestone for public access, it gets presented front and center.

After all, you'll need a place to show off those nice new Characters once you've made them, right?

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The problem Huck, isn’t at base, but where you can build from there. When you are looking st high end performance, procs in general are always more advantageous in fast recharging powers. Especially if you can build it so that the power recharges as fast as or almost as fast as the cast time.

Then you need a couple of attacks in a chain with a proc in each and over a minute you will have better results than ever placing them in slower powers not typically used in a chain.

When you adjust the proc rate for time, then it becomes a matter of discernment of the player where to place procs and how you are building a character.

A 20% proc nance in a 120 second recharging power would not be as good as a 20% proc rate in a 1 second recharging power.

When you have powers that cast in less than a second and potentially Reduce the recharge rate to meet that cast time...

It is a problem that many other games don’t have to address because the ability to reduce recharge time isn’t common. There may be some ways to do so, but not always directly in the power and globally at the same time.

That is why we adjust for procs over time. It also uses the same code for when procs are placed in area effect damage over time powers. Proc-trops has they are called in the old game - prior to proc rate adjustments were just nasty in dealing damage.

I'm sorry Tannim222, but I'm having difficulty trying to understand your post. It seems that parts did not actually counter what I put forward.

Not only that, but I know quite a few communities who disagree that weak rapid powers are the best for damage procs (if they are % damage, not flat damage amounts) because of the greater effect that spike damage has. A proc'd crit snipe can one-shot an opponent. That is always worth more than a small damage amount that proc's frequently. But this is opinion.

Was there something in my post that was not clear? It was all just math, not opinion; so I'd be happy to restate it more clearly and then you can tell me where I was wrong.

I underrstsnd the argument. The past, from the old game, demonstrated how it was proven false.

Where attack chains from incredibly fast recharging powres proved the most optimum results over time for proc placement. The high end builds almutilized them overnplacing them in slow recharging powers.

One of the primary factors is the ability to adjust a power’s recharge rate plays a huge roll in chances of occurrence. This comes down to what powers you will use reguslrly and the probability rates involved.

Basically it comes down to using powers in a chain over time vs powers used occasionally. When you can create an effective attack chain that can be repeated untinterruoted, powers that have a long recharge time are not typically worth placing a proc in. Especially for powers that can only be used only a few times a minute or less than once a minute.

With these way we are adjusting, we level the field between feequent usage and infrequent use while at the same time don’t have to make a separate system for powers that provide effects over time.


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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Very nice! The biggest distraction the cape was, "So shiny!" But that's a good thing! As has been pointed out often enough, just because it's not an option I may ever use doesn't make it a bad option to have.

One request I have is to increase the color saturation on the icons. Pastels never really worked for me, especially when it's something that really needs to "pop".

The colors aren’t actually pastels, they 2d art for the icons are clear and the background affects the coloring.


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I do love the decision for

I do love the decision for Proc/time in stead of simply % chance to Proc.


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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

capes looked good just moved a bit too crazy, and was hoping to see one that wasn't shiny. But awesome job!

Yeah they did have the cape (and the characters) in this vid bouncing around like chickens with their heads cut off. ;)

But if I had to guess they were probably having them move that fast on purpose just to test out how the graphics could handle that amount of speedy movement. Remember fast onscreen action can easily cause graphics to clip/glitch if the game can't render it fast enough and from what I saw the cape and both of these characters still looked pretty good as they moved. Basically what we saw probably served as a built-in "stress test" for extreme motion.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Cape looked natural to me in

Cape looked natural to me in its movements. At least for whatever settings it was at.

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It looked like a thin cape, a

It looked like a thin cape, a CLOAK however...


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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
jtpaull wrote:

Great short video. Great update for augments and refinements. Short, sweet, to the point. Now to try and log off for a month until the next update.

Coming from you that's a good sign! I keep thinking of "Mikey" from a cereal commercial years back with you. ;p

In short, thanks!

I didn't realize that I had been vocal enough to be remembered. But in my defense, anything I have been vocal about is only because I am looking forward to this game more than any other. If I've complained about things, which I know I have, it's only because I want CoT to not only succeed, but exceed expectations.

This video was very well done, IMO. It showed off a phenomenal teaser to character movement and fluidity...as well as great cape effects. It's videos like this that reaffirm my decision to donate/invest in the Second Chance, despite any complaints I may or may not still have.

As far as the augments and refinements, I liked the information but I prefer not to crunch numbers and min/max in games...I just slot what I feel like I want for the given power. But I like the icons and the choices.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Cape looked natural to me in its movements. At least for whatever settings it was at.

I've always personally liked shorter length capes for my characters, like this:

IIRC, I think a Dev mentioned that we were going to be able to "re-size" any cape to be longer or shorter as desired. It'd be awesome if a Dev could chime in here and confirm if that's still going to be the case. Obviously I'd expect there'd be reasonable limits to this but still if we could have a slider that would go from say "ground-length" up to "waist-length" that'd be great.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Cape looked natural to me in its movements. At least for whatever settings it was at.

I've always personally liked shorter length capes for my characters, like this:

IIRC, I think a Dev mentioned that we were going to be able to "re-size" any cape to be longer or shorter as desired. It'd be awesome if a Dev could chime in here and confirm if that's still going to be the case. Obviously I'd expect there'd be reasonable limits to this but still if we could have a slider that would go from say "ground-length" up to "waist-length" that'd be great.

That is the case. And yes, cloaks do behave differently than capes, as do long jackets.

I'm looking forward to sporting my duster in-game.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:

IIRC, I think a Dev mentioned that we were going to be able to "re-size" any cape to be longer or shorter as desired. It'd be awesome if a Dev could chime in here and confirm if that's still going to be the case. Obviously I'd expect there'd be reasonable limits to this but still if we could have a slider that would go from say "ground-length" up to "waist-length" that'd be great.

That is the case. And yes, cloaks do behave differently than capes, as do long jackets.

Word from a Dev that's both good and nearly instantaneous... can't get much better than that! ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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ikr!

ikr!


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The proc per minute approach

The proc per minute approach is a good move. Everquest did this back in the day, so procs wouldn't be affected by Haste and slow effects that were common in that game. One thing to watch out for is the possible effects of purposefully slowing yourself in order to increase per-activation proc rate. That isn't necessarily a problem by itself; it can become one, however, depending on what procs are available and other interactions in the system, so its something to keep an eye on. From what I understand, there was a technique known as "Shakerpaging" in EQ that involved purposefully slowing yourself, wielding a sword with an AOE damage proc (earthquake), and triggering an ability (rampage) that would make one attack against everything in melee after pulling an entire map to one spot, triggering a million AOEs and killing everything.

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Since no one else brought

Since no one else brought this to the thread yet ...


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7thGate wrote:
7thGate wrote:

The proc per minute approach is a good move. Everquest did this back in the day, so procs wouldn't be affected by Haste and slow effects that were common in that game. One thing to watch out for is the possible effects of purposefully slowing yourself in order to increase per-activation proc rate. That isn't necessarily a problem by itself; it can become one, however, depending on what procs are available and other interactions in the system, so its something to keep an eye on. From what I understand, there was a technique known as "Shakerpaging" in EQ that involved purposefully slowing yourself, wielding a sword with an AOE damage proc (earthquake), and triggering an ability (rampage) that would make one attack against everything in melee after pulling an entire map to one spot, triggering a million AOEs and killing everything.

Yup, I recall that.

We don’t have self slow that affects recharge rates, you don’t want to let yourself be open to being slowed by an enemy too much if you have a Mastery or Powerset(s) that rely on Momentum, and you can’t suddeny unslocket Recharge Reduction Refs.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The problem Huck, isn’t at base, but where you can build from there. When you are looking st high end performance, procs in general are always more advantageous in fast recharging powers. Especially if you can build it so that the power recharges as fast as or almost as fast as the cast time.

Then you need a couple of attacks in a chain with a proc in each and over a minute you will have better results than ever placing them in slower powers not typically used in a chain.

When you adjust the proc rate for time, then it becomes a matter of discernment of the player where to place procs and how you are building a character.

A 20% proc nance in a 120 second recharging power would not be as good as a 20% proc rate in a 1 second recharging power.

When you have powers that cast in less than a second and potentially Reduce the recharge rate to meet that cast time...

It is a problem that many other games don’t have to address because the ability to reduce recharge time isn’t common. There may be some ways to do so, but not always directly in the power and globally at the same time.

That is why we adjust for procs over time. It also uses the same code for when procs are placed in area effect damage over time powers. Proc-trops has they are called in the old game - prior to proc rate adjustments were just nasty in dealing damage.

I'm sorry Tannim222, but I'm having difficulty trying to understand your post. It seems that parts did not actually counter what I put forward.

Not only that, but I know quite a few communities who disagree that weak rapid powers are the best for damage procs (if they are % damage, not flat damage amounts) because of the greater effect that spike damage has. A proc'd crit snipe can one-shot an opponent. That is always worth more than a small damage amount that proc's frequently. But this is opinion.

Was there something in my post that was not clear? It was all just math, not opinion; so I'd be happy to restate it more clearly and then you can tell me where I was wrong.

I underrstsnd the argument. The past, from the old game, demonstrated how it was proven false.

Where attack chains from incredibly fast recharging powres proved the most optimum results over time for proc placement. The high end builds almutilized them overnplacing them in slow recharging powers.

One of the primary factors is the ability to adjust a power’s recharge rate plays a huge roll in chances of occurrence. This comes down to what powers you will use reguslrly and the probability rates involved.

Basically it comes down to using powers in a chain over time vs powers used occasionally. When you can create an effective attack chain that can be repeated untinterruoted, powers that have a long recharge time are not typically worth placing a proc in. Especially for powers that can only be used only a few times a minute or less than once a minute.

With these way we are adjusting, we level the field between feequent usage and infrequent use while at the same time don’t have to make a separate system for powers that provide effects over time.

You state this with so much conviction, yet the math does not support it. Since you're sticking with qualification statements and not quantification, I can only presume what assumptions you are making.

Let's go back to the two attacks I used in my example.

1. 2 second recharge time, does 20 damage = 10 dps.
2. 10 second recharge time, does 100 damage = 10 dps

Now, if we augment the powers to reduce the recharge rate by 10%, we get:
1. 1.8 second recharge rate @ 20dmg = 11dps
2. 9 seconds recharge rate @100dmg = 11dps

they're still the same.

however

if you're assuming that recharge time reduction is a flat amount, like say 0.5 seconds. Then I agree that this affects the rapid powers most because that 0.5 seconds is a much greater % of the recharge time. It would be:
1. 1.5s @ 20dmg = 13dps
2. 9.5s @ 100dmg = 11dps

I know this ignores your discussion of attack chains, but the decision of whether to use a power when its cooldown expires is up to the player. When I put attack chains together I usually end up inserting the long-cooldown spells into it when their cooldowns expire, usually at the most optimal spot in the chain. Actually, now that I think about it, I usually create my attack chains with the recharge rates already incorporated into them so that the highest dps attacks appear most often.

So let's say that my chain starts with an opener rotation like this:
self buff + target debuff

then a maintenance rotation like this:
resource builder + resource builder + resource builder + finisher

And I repeat the maintenance rotation until the buffs expire, then I insert the expired buffs into the rotation as needed and repeat.

With such a rotation; if I have a longer cooldown power that is not part of that chain, I am more than capable of, and well practiced at, inserting it into the chain as soon as its cooldown has expired. Then I resume my regularly scheduled attack chain.

Different builds will have different rotations. One build could use a knock back + pull + slam rotation, another could use a sleep + snipe rotation. And even those could change based upon the number of enemies, their weaknesses, etc.

What I'm saying is that just because someone has some powers as part of a rehearsed chain of attacks doesn't make the math any different unless they choose not to use their long-cooldown spells when those cooldowns expire. So if a player slotted a proc in a spell with a long cool down and then didn't use that spell when it was available, then I would have to agree with you that they player did not get the best use out of it.

All things being equal, the math tells us to put the proc into the spell with the most dps, no matter what the recharge rate of the spell is. But the math assumes the player will cast the spell as soon as the cool down expires. If the player does not, then they are the one's to blame, not the game system.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Since no one else brought this to the thread yet ...

Foradain wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

Oh, I'm sure Edna will have lots of comments about the capes. To which I will reply: "Velcro attachment points. So, nyahhh!"

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Since no one else brought this to the thread yet ...

Foradain wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

And no comments on that cape?!!! Geeks did a damned good job getting that to work right... but, yeah, I can't wait to get my hands back on working on the character builder.

Oh, I'm sure Edna will have lots of comments about the capes. To which I will reply: "Velcro attachment points. So, nyahhh!"

Coincidentally enough that's why I like short capes. They let you have "the cape" without most of the downsides that long capes suffer from. If you re-watch the Edna vid none of her bad examples were -short- capes. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Since no one else brought this to the thread yet ...

Lol nice! I love it! Hope the sequel measures up!

Of course I’m glad Lothic asked cause I tend to prefer the shorter capes as well when I get them at all.

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I don't like the way short

I don't like the way short capes look. But I am glad we will have that option for you. For me, the longer the better. As for Edna's rule, I think that's bull. If a piece of cloth getting caught and pulling you to your death is your weakness, you weren't worthy of superhero status in the first place!

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I don't like the way short capes look. But I am glad we will have that option for you. For me, the longer the better. As for Edna's rule, I think that's bull. If a piece of cloth getting caught and pulling you to your death is your weakness, you weren't worthy of superhero status in the first place!

Quite true, but it was a great scene for lil Edna!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Great update! Nice to see the

Great update! Nice to see the tires hit the road with some actual indication of how things will work. Getting my min/max calculator ready! :D

Huckleberry, I believe the disconnect between yourself and Tannim222 is that you are assuming the proc will have a dmg amount based on the power it is slotted in, whereas I don't think that is the case...? Seems from Tannim222's comments that the proc value is a set amount so it would always be better to slot it in a power where it is triggered more often i.e. a faster recharging power.
I personally like the flat rate regardless of the power recharge it's slotted on, it gives much more flexibility on where it can be slotted. Nice work :)

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REDEEMED0NE wrote:
REDEEMED0NE wrote:

Great update! Nice to see the tires hit the road with some actual indication of how things will work. Getting my min/max calculator ready! :D

Huckleberry, I believe the disconnect between yourself and Tannim222 is that you are assuming the proc will have a dmg amount based on the power it is slotted in, whereas I don't think that is the case...? Seems from Tannim222's comments that the proc value is a set amount so it would always be better to slot it in a power where it is triggered more often i.e. a faster recharging power.
I personally like the flat rate regardless of the power recharge it's slotted on, it gives much more flexibility on where it can be slotted. Nice work :)

I stated that in my first post (#30) on the subject and would agree if that was the case. Edit: Actually, re-reading it is not so obvious that I considered it. I had probably done so an deleted it in one of my rewrites, so it is fresh in my head, just not so present in the actual words. But Tannim222 hasn't stated it is or is not the case, so I can only work with assumptions. So I'm putting all the assumptions out there in hope of understanding why he is saying what he is.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huck, inappreciate what you

Huck, I appreciate what you’re getting at. We already have prior experience showing us what high end atrack chains can pull of.

We also don’t have evenly parsed our powers for dps where powe A and Power B are the exact same dps. There are free more variations. Which affects probability.

There are also powers that fire off less than once a minute.

And powers that fire off many times in seconds.

Instead of having separate rules for these types of powers and your standard dps powers, we have 1 rule application.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Huck, inappreciate what you’re getting at. We already have prior experience showing us what high end atrack chains can pull of.

We also don’t have evenly parsed our powers for dps where powe A and Power B are the exact same dps. There are free more variations. Which affects probability.

There are also powers that fire off less than once a minute.

And powers that fire off many times in seconds.

Instead of having separate rules for these types of powers and your standard dps powers, we have 1 rule application.

Not sure if that is fat fingers, missing keys, or the same amount of Glenn Livet as I’ve had tonight but somehow that still all made sense to me! ????

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Radiac wrote:

...

What am I missing here?

Buying the team a pizza maybe?

I'll buy the team a pizza, you all will have to figure out how to split it equally and get it to each other :p

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Huck, inappreciate what you’re getting at. We already have prior experience showing us what high end atrack chains can pull of.

We also don’t have evenly parsed our powers for dps where powe A and Power B are the exact same dps. There are free more variations. Which affects probability.

There are also powers that fire off less than once a minute.

And powers that fire off many times in seconds.

Instead of having separate rules for these types of powers and your standard dps powers, we have 1 rule application.

Fair enough. And I think we all fully expect a lot of tweaking to occur both up to and after publishing the game. I won't bother you for any more details now, but will look forward to helping you playtest it. You know you'll get an honest evaluation.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Radiac wrote:

...

What am I missing here?

Buying the team a pizza maybe?

I'll buy the team a pizza, you all will have to figure out how to split it equally and get it to each other :p

I love this community!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Huck, inappreciate what you’re getting at. We already have prior experience showing us what high end atrack chains can pull of.

We also don’t have evenly parsed our powers for dps where powe A and Power B are the exact same dps. There are free more variations. Which affects probability.

There are also powers that fire off less than once a minute.

And powers that fire off many times in seconds.

Instead of having separate rules for these types of powers and your standard dps powers, we have 1 rule application.

Fair enough. And I think we all fully expect a lot of tweaking to occur both up to and after publishing the game. I won't bother you for any more details now, but will look forward to helping you playtest it. You know you'll get an honest evaluation.

I can’t wait (and that isn’t to be read as sarcasm - I really can’t wait!).


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Cape looked natural to me in its movements. At least for whatever settings it was at.

I've always personally liked shorter length capes for my characters, like this:

IIRC, I think a Dev mentioned that we were going to be able to "re-size" any cape to be longer or shorter as desired. It'd be awesome if a Dev could chime in here and confirm if that's still going to be the case. Obviously I'd expect there'd be reasonable limits to this but still if we could have a slider that would go from say "ground-length" up to "waist-length" that'd be great.

All about the scarf :)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Very nice! The biggest distraction the cape was, "So shiny!" But that's a good thing! As has been pointed out often enough, just because it's not an option I may ever use doesn't make it a bad option to have.

One request I have is to increase the color saturation on the icons. Pastels never really worked for me, especially when it's something that really needs to "pop".

The colors aren’t actually pastels, they 2d art for the icons are clear and the background affects the coloring.

That's interesting. Can MWM reveal at this point why that is the case? Looking at the example with the two powers, it seems as though it makes it harder to tell what you have slotted.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Another good update: (pulls

Another good update: (pulls out Sunglasses) Those capes are shiny! Anyway can't wait to see more updates. Keep up the good work

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Cape looked natural to me in its movements. At least for whatever settings it was at.

I've always personally liked shorter length capes for my characters, like this:

IIRC, I think a Dev mentioned that we were going to be able to "re-size" any cape to be longer or shorter as desired. It'd be awesome if a Dev could chime in here and confirm if that's still going to be the case. Obviously I'd expect there'd be reasonable limits to this but still if we could have a slider that would go from say "ground-length" up to "waist-length" that'd be great.

All about the scarf :)

Wow, I had forgotten all about scarves... and at least a couple of my favorites had codtumes with the scarves... thx for the memory flood Brand X! Well maybe just a rivulet but thx all the same!

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So with the proc things being

So with the proc things being the same does that make them better to be put on AoEs as they'd affect more targets?

Or are there going to be some for AoE abilities and some for single target.

Sorry if this was addressed in the update it was just a mountain of text that I read (more like skimmed through) last night.

Also on the cape front I hope we can get the single shoulder half-capes too. Other than that nice video verrrr Shiney. The lady's elbows looked a bit scrawny to me, but it could have been the angle or a number of other things.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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This article REALLY reignited

This article REALLY reignited my excitement. Between the capes and augments and refinements I don’t know which excites me the most! I could SEE myself applying the refinement/augment to my powers and it just made me SO giddy. I think it was the images of the icons but I felt like i was looking at an improved CoH screen for a second.

Thanks for all the work you guys do! Pumped for the avatar builder and beyond!

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Primary: Force Blast
Secondary: Atrophic Aura
Tertiary: Kinetic Melee
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Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.

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Great update!

Great update!

The cape looks great as well as the jiggling hair!

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Also on the cape front I hope we can get the single shoulder half-capes too.

Hopefully we'll get scarves and those single shoulder half-capes like CoH had. I used each of those a few times myself.

Rigel wrote:

The cape looks great as well as the jiggling hair!

Yeah I noticed the hair jiggle as well. It's not bad considering the only hair jiggle we had/saw in CoH was Ghost Widow's. Obviously it would be cool if we could have something like this in CoT:

But even though that was a tech example from at least 8 years ago I suspect it'd probably still be prohibitive to get the average MMO to support that level of detail today.

Bottomline as long as we get some kind of hair jiggle in CoT we're at least making progress. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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The hair physics hasn't had

The hair physics hasn't had much refinement yet. The cape had more fine tuning, one more reason to keep the female parts short and sweet. As always...just wait till next month.

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Lothic
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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

The hair physics hasn't had much refinement yet. The cape had more fine tuning, one more reason to keep the female parts short and sweet. As always...just wait till next month.

I'm well aware that "first looks" are not "final versions". Still if CoT could end up (detail-wise) somewhere between the vid you just released and the ultra high end tech demos you can commonly find on YouTube today that would likely be a perfect compromise between, well, perfection and nothing at all. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Redlynne
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Quote:
Quote:

Refinements

Refinements affect the originator of the power effect. For a player, it is your character, or your summoned pets. Refinements don’t change a power’s Output. Instead they provide an improvement for aspects of the power which affect how the power functions for the originator. Refinements can come in the following forms:

Accuracy: Improves the power’s accuracy.

Power Cost: Reduces the cost for using a power.

Recharge Time: Reduces the recharge time of the power.

Passive Charge Time: Reduces the time required to passively charge a power.

Crit Rate: Improves the chance to score a critical hit.

Range: Increases the range of the power.

I find myself sincerely hoping that this is by no means an exhaustive list of the Refinements that are being planned. The reason that I say that is because while this set of Refinements works just fine for offensive purposes, it seems to be woefully under representing potentials for protection purposes ... as in ... this ...

Quote:

Protection: This is a buff that affects Defense, Evasion, Resistance, and Subtraction.

Protection + Accuracy
So long as you're allowed to "flip the script" on what Accuracy "means" in this context, I can envision it amounting to extra Evasion, but that is by no means clear/obvious from the writeup we've been given. And yes, my motivation in this case is to determine if NO GET HITSU!! will be possible to create under the City of Titans game mechanics, so this is somewhat relevant to my interests.

Protection + Endurance Cost
Relevant in Click and Toggle Powers, but not relevant to Passive Powers.

Protection + Recharge Time
Relevant in Click and Toggle Powers, but not relevant to Passive Powers.

Protection + Passive Charge Time
?????

Protection + Crit Rate
Again, this would fall under a "is flipping the script allowed?" such that slotting this Refinement into a Protective Power winds up reducing the chance you can be critically hit by attacks.

Protection + Range
This would seem to only be relevant for Powers that affect "more than just Self" (since Self Only Powers functionally have no Range component to them, or their Range is set to zero). In the case of Force Field bubbles, I can envision this increasing the radius of the bubbles, making them larger, or allowing (ranged) casting of bubbles onto others at longer distances. But then that leaves Self Only Protection Powers (ala Super Reflexes) with no use for this Refinement.

My point with this post being that it looks like for the Protection side of things that the Refinements are of only limited relevance. Here's to hoping that there will be more types of Refinements available than just these 6.

Doing a bit of napkin math theorycrafting (in a vacuum) I'm kind of wondering how a Powerset like Super Reflexes (self only Defense) would fare under this system when it comes to slotting options.
3 Defensive Toggles (Focused Fighting, Focused Senses, Evasion)
3 Defensive Passives (Agile, Dodge, Lucky)
1 Haste Passive (Quickness)
2 Click Powers (Practiced Brawler, Elude)

Here's what I'm assuming would happen when translated into City of Titans mechanics terminology.

Focused Fighting (melee Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Focused Senses (ranged Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Agile (melee Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Practiced Brawler (status protection Click) = Control + Power Cost/Recharge Time
Dodge (ranged Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Quickness (global haste Passive) = Optimizer + Passive Charge Time
Lucky (AoE Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Evasion (AoE Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Elude ("nuke" defensive Click) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Passive Recharge Time/Crit Rate

Now obviously the old system isn't going to make for a perfect fit into the new one, but I am concerned about the limited scope of applicability for the Refinements revealed so far to apply to Powers that aren't explicitly attack styled Powers. Specifically, I'm worried about a dearth of variations or choices being available to Refine Protections beyond the most bare bones "basic" slotting.


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Radiac
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In response to Red above, you

In response to Red above, you correctly surmise that not all powers can accept all types of refinements and augments. I don't think they have to, and nobody's saying they should. Even CoX struggled to find stuff you could put into some powers and get anything out if it, in some cases. Defense and Protection powers were actually a good example of powers you might not WANT to have fully slotted for optimal performance of a build overall. Maybe in CoT the "right" build is to leave some types of powers with just the single slot they came with, or leave them at a total of 2 slots, etc. That can happen. That's a FEATURE of those powers that they can be left with less than the max number of slots and still be optimized as such. You might find you want to use those unused slots in other places, and this lets you do that.

Also, remember that Refinements use slots that are not necessarily always there in the first place. How do we know that there will actually be any Augments that you might be able to put in a passive protection power that will actually grant you a Refinement slot for a refinement? If there are literally zero refinements that exist to fill that slot, then the slot itself probably doesn't exist yet either.

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Tannim222
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Here's what I'm assuming would happen when translated into City of Titans mechanics terminology.

Focused Fighting (melee Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Focused Senses (ranged Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Agile (melee Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Practiced Brawler (status protection Click) = Control + Power Cost/Recharge Time
Dodge (ranged Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Quickness (global haste Passive) = Optimizer + Passive Charge Time
Lucky (AoE Passive) = Protection + Accuracy/Crit Rate
Evasion (AoE Toggle) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Crit Rate
Elude ("nuke" defensive Click) = Protection + Accuracy/Power Cost/Recharge Time/Passive Recharge Time/Crit Rate

Now obviously the old system isn't going to make for a perfect fit into the new one, but I am concerned about the limited scope of applicability for the Refinements revealed so far to apply to Powers that aren't explicitly attack styled Powers. Specifically, I'm worried about a dearth of variations or choices being available to Refine Protections beyond the most bare bones "basic" slotting.

Radiac has it right in that not every power will use every type of Refinement. Some protection powers may not have much use for many refinement types. That is because Refinements adjust how the power works for the originator. The more stuff a power actually does, the more augments it will need.

Take a look at our example powers for Super Agility:
Superior Reflexes (tier 3): this is a permanent power that buffs evasion and also provides a defense buff that stacks when you successfully evade. It only requires a Protection Augment to buff the Evasion value. It is permanent so it doesn't require recharge or power cost reduction Refs. In fact, it has no need for Refs at all. Now you know where to save your time for placing crafted augs of more rarity (until we get to Set bonuses eventually).

Deftness (tier5): is a toggle that increases evasion and also debuffs accuracy. Being a toggle, using power cost reduction is good. However, on the Augment side you have 2 choices: Protection and Attenuator for the accuracy debuff. Since the Accuracy Debuff requires a hit check, you can choose to socket Accuracy Refs there and even Crit rate refs (if you're so inclined to use them).

You have also not seen the entire list of powers and it isn't not necessarily a good assumption to purely look to the old game's version of powers for plotting how a set will work in CoT.


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Radiac
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Can we assume that the CoT

Can we assume that the CoT system will be set up in such a way that we will not be able to put a crafted Augment into a power that it can't actually affect, just to get a Refinement slot out of it, so that we can then put a Refinement in that slot which ALSO does nothing, just to get set bonuses or something out of the whole mess?

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Tannim222
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Can we assume that the CoT system will be set up in such a way that we will not be able to put a crafted Augment into a power that it can't actually affect, just to get a Refinement slot out of it, so that we can then put a Refinement in that slot which ALSO does nothing, just to get set bonuses or something out of the whole mess?

I would not assume such. The plan is for set bonuses to affect that power, not be global buffs unless we want to add a global effect as a unique bonus.

We are a long, long way off from worrying about that.


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