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Discuss: What We Can Do: Augments and Refinements

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Fireheart
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Right, there's already

Right, there's already 'Powerset Augments' for global effects in the plan, so there's no reason to have complex 'collect-a-set-of Augments/Refinements' for the same purpose. CoH's 'Set Enhancements' were often kinda terrible, as a way to offset their bonuses. I would rather be able to build-out my character with precisely the bonuses I want in each power.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Right, there's already 'Powerset Augments' for global effects in the plan, so there's no reason to have complex 'collect-a-set-of Augments/Refinements' for the same purpose. CoH's 'Set Enhancements' were often kinda terrible, as a way to offset their bonuses. I would rather be able to build-out my character with precisely the bonuses I want in each power.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Part of that was that CoH simply didn't leave itself much "room to maneuver" in that regard. The point between when having the full set slotted was "balanced" and when you tossed in the global effects became "overpowered" was sometimes a very tiny step so consequentially the global bonuses often had to be practically pointless to keep it all in check.

Hopefully with all of this being planned out from the beginning the CoT Devs will be leaving themselves greater latitude to offer things which are significantly beneficial without becoming instantly overpowered.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Can we assume that the CoT system will be set up in such a way that we will not be able to put a crafted Augment into a power that it can't actually affect, just to get a Refinement slot out of it, so that we can then put a Refinement in that slot which ALSO does nothing, just to get set bonuses or something out of the whole mess?

I would not assume such. The plan is for set bonuses to affect that power, not be global buffs unless we want to add a global effect as a unique bonus.

We are a long, long way off from worrying about that.

It took City of Heroes 3+ years to release the Invention System with Set Bonuses.. Hope you guys can churn out something even better, but I hope even more it doesn't take that long. Haha

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I feel like we need a

I feel like we need a different thread one for augments and one for capes. Maybe should have been two different updates.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I feel like we need a different thread one for augments and one for capes. Maybe should have been two different updates.

There's nothing that would stop you from creating a new "Let's talk about capes here" thread that would cover anything/everything about them.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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A big thing I would like to

A big thing I would like to point out now?

I LOVED the enhancement system in CoH once I wrapped my head around it? But it has a big problem that I hope you're ready to address.

That problem is how inaccessible it was to color blind people until you reach IOs.

There were so few icons used in an origin type, and what they did was often only easy to tell via name+color, and the names were often annoying to pay attention to. My girlfriend loved the game lay, but could not enjoy leveling up because it meant she had to struggle through being color blind and needing to enhance herself. I don't blame you if this isn't something that you've thought of before, but as someone who REALLY wants to play this with her, please make sure to keep it in mind! She's helped gamedevs with color blind testing before, and she may be busier these days, but I know she would never be upset to be asked if she could tell the difference between icons easily.

Thank you for keeping this in mind :)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I feel like we need a different thread one for augments and one for capes. Maybe should have been two different updates.

There's nothing that would stop you from creating a new "Let's talk about capes here" thread that would cover anything/everything about them.

Im not a leader im a follower.

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Kistulot wrote:
Kistulot wrote:

A big thing I would like to point out now?

I LOVED the enhancement system in CoH once I wrapped my head around it? But it has a big problem that I hope you're ready to address.

That problem is how inaccessible it was to color blind people until you reach IOs.

There were so few icons used in an origin type, and what they did was often only easy to tell via name+color, and the names were often annoying to pay attention to. My girlfriend loved the game lay, but could not enjoy leveling up because it meant she had to struggle through being color blind and needing to enhance herself. I don't blame you if this isn't something that you've thought of before, but as someone who REALLY wants to play this with her, please make sure to keep it in mind! She's helped gamedevs with color blind testing before, and she may be busier these days, but I know she would never be upset to be asked if she could tell the difference between icons easily.

Thank you for keeping this in mind :)

Glad you're both excited!!

This exact topic came up VERY recently, wherein many devs of this game said they too are colorblind. Which means, they should definitely be very aware of the need.

You can see the thread here: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/disabled-heroesvillains

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Kistulot wrote:
Kistulot wrote:

Thank you for keeping this in mind :)

[EDIT: MeSoSollyWan probably beat me by just a few seconds on this... lol]

Actually many of the Devs of this game have openly claimed to have various forms of color blindness themselves so I think making sure CoT will be accessible to color blind people is definitely going to be an active priority of theirs.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Our Project Lead and

Our Project Lead and President are both colorblind. It helps that Augments and Refinements are not origin specific, we aren't having origins as a mechanic at all. That means we have a far shorter, simpler list to populate and can make unique icons more easily, without relying on color overmuch.

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But, the Code! How are we

But, the Code! How are we going to keep the secret code secret without a million obscure colors, like taupe, mauve, and, citrine?

Taste the Rainbow!

Be Well!
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I loved that muscle amazon

I loved that muscle amazon head stomping female.....looked like mother russia from bad ass 2 cant wait to play this game you guys did wonderful !!! A++++++++++++

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I'm going straight to the

I'm going straight to the movements. I have played wrestling games that did not have those physics. The cape has personality, and the costumes are actually worn. Not painted on.

This will be Most Played MMO / RPG...

Mu uuh ah hahaa!!!

RAN Ink

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I loved that muscle amazon head stomping female.....looked like mother russia from bad ass 2 cant wait to play this game you guys did wonderful !!! A++++++++++++

I actually spent a few minutes googling pics of Mother Russia earlier today just because I realized this character in the vid sparked a memory of her. Turns out she's not an exact clone of Mother Russia but she could have easily been Ivan Drago's twin sister instead. ;)

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*smiles, not revealing who

*smiles, not revealing who she is yet, but you guys are getting warm*

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Some more questions about

Some more questions about what we saw in the video:

1. We saw some animations that were called "Monk Ability," but there wherefore than one animation with that label. Is this because Monk Ability is an animation aesthetic theme, and maybe the actual animation we see from that theme is different depending on which power it is being used for?

2. We saw a pose called "Dragon Stance." Is this an Idle Pose, a Combat Idle Pose, a defense pose, or something else?

3. Not a question: It looks like the male character was wearing the same spandex in each cut, but the different color and material selections you selected for each cut did a good job of showing off the options we will have. BZ


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Don't give the animation

Don't give the animation labels too much thought, they were 'for the moment'

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

*smiles, not revealing who she is yet, but you guys are getting warm*

Eh... My only other guess (which I accept is almost certainly wrong but still generally fits with the overall body shape) is Pam from Archer during that brief period where she was hopped-up on kilos of cocaine. The cocaine had the twin effects of helping her lose some of her normal body fat but also made her an almost unstoppable female Incredible Hulk:

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Kistulot wrote:
Kistulot wrote:

A big thing I would like to point out now?

I LOVED the enhancement system in CoH once I wrapped my head around it? But it has a big problem that I hope you're ready to address.

That problem is how inaccessible it was to color blind people until you reach IOs.

There were so few icons used in an origin type, and what they did was often only easy to tell via name+color, and the names were often annoying to pay attention to. My girlfriend loved the game lay, but could not enjoy leveling up because it meant she had to struggle through being color blind and needing to enhance herself. I don't blame you if this isn't something that you've thought of before, but as someone who REALLY wants to play this with her, please make sure to keep it in mind! She's helped gamedevs with color blind testing before, and she may be busier these days, but I know she would never be upset to be asked if she could tell the difference between icons easily.

Thank you for keeping this in mind :)

Dr. Tyche and Warcabbit, for example are color blind - and they aren't the only members of the team. We have acquired tools and we have been doing research on this topic. I'm working on ideas for settings for adjusting each player's experience in this regard. One of our art managers is fighting macular degeneration and tends to do things in black and white (white text, black background is what he needs).
How much loss do you have in each of the primaries? I recently learned that people may not be totally blind in a color but are color impaired instead. They just need more intense colors where they have their impairment and I've been working on an app for this for those it will help with.

Anyways one rule I've insisted on is not depend on color codes but color + text. Sometimes we may just do it as a mouseover text popup but it will be there. I also want to figure out things for the hearing impaired. CoH had its "glowie" sound to help you find a mission target. We need to find another means to indicate strength and direction to target other than that (I'm thinking of a monochromatic arrow that points to the object and gets brighter as you get closer as a possibility).

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Kistulot wrote:

A big thing I would like to point out now?

I LOVED the enhancement system in CoH once I wrapped my head around it? But it has a big problem that I hope you're ready to address.

That problem is how inaccessible it was to color blind people until you reach IOs.

There were so few icons used in an origin type, and what they did was often only easy to tell via name+color, and the names were often annoying to pay attention to. My girlfriend loved the game lay, but could not enjoy leveling up because it meant she had to struggle through being color blind and needing to enhance herself. I don't blame you if this isn't something that you've thought of before, but as someone who REALLY wants to play this with her, please make sure to keep it in mind! She's helped gamedevs with color blind testing before, and she may be busier these days, but I know she would never be upset to be asked if she could tell the difference between icons easily.

Thank you for keeping this in mind :)

Dr. Tyche and Warcabbit, for example are color blind - and they aren't the only members of the team. We have acquired tools and we have been doing research on this topic. I'm working on ideas for settings for adjusting each player's experience in this regard. One of our art managers is fighting macular degeneration and tends to do things in black and white (white text, black background is what he needs).
How much loss do you have in each of the primaries? I recently learned that people may not be totally blind in a color but are color impaired instead. They just need more intense colors where they have their impairment and I've been working on an app for this for those it will help with.

Anyways one rule I've insisted on is not depend on color codes but color + text. Sometimes we may just do it as a mouseover text popup but it will be there. I also want to figure out things for the hearing impaired. CoH had its "glowie" sound to help you find a mission target. We need to find another means to indicate strength and direction to target other than that (I'm thinking of a monochromatic arrow that points to the object and gets brighter as you get closer as a possibility).

Wait, why cant we do a glowie? Isnt that a sound that gets louder?

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I also want to figure out things for the hearing impaired. CoH had its "glowie" sound to help you find a mission target. We need to find another means to indicate strength and direction to target other than that (I'm thinking of a monochromatic arrow that points to the object and gets brighter as you get closer as a possibility).

Wait, why cant we do a glowie? Isnt that a sound that gets louder?

Louder sounds can't help people who are -completely- deaf. Besides (even as a non-hearing impaired person) there were times when I liked to play CoH with the sound off so an audible cue didn't help me much either.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yes it is. I've already

Yes it is. I've already implemented it! I was just speaking about players with hearing problems. We have a mandate to accomodate players with disabilities as much as we can.

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Ok I understand.

Ok I understand.

Edit: I just reread your post earlier and I missed the, "for the hearing impaired" part which explains your suggestion. MY BAD!

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

Worth sharing, from darnstrong's thread, https://cityoftitans.com/comment/143662#comment-143662 :

I know it's a trivial thing, but I really like this aesthetic of Augments being a core and Refinements filling out the larger triangle around it.

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Darnstrong is a major asset

Darnstrong is a major asset for us. Many of the excellent icons and such have been made by him.

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Yeah my son could never hear

Yeah my son could never hear those sounds. And even now that he is older and able to discriminate sounds better and has a newer hearing aid and upgraded cochlear implant, I doubt he would pick up on such a sound and be able to detect the direction of it appropriately.

With regards to Augments and Refinements - we have less than the old game did with enhancements. And we have them improving effects that the old game either didn’t allow for, or didn’t even use.

Avelworldcreator already brought up the concern for how he plans to handle accessibility for color impaired and blindness. Not only will we have tool-tip pop menus on mouse-over, but the Augs / Refs have distinctive iconography as well.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

*smiles, not revealing who she is yet, but you guys are getting warm*

Eh... My only other guess (which I accept is almost certainly wrong but still generally fits with the overall body shape) is Pam from Archer during that brief period where she was hopped-up on kilos of cocaine. The cocaine had the twin effects of helping her lose some of her normal body fat but also made her an almost unstoppable female Incredible Hulk:

Ah Archer.... classic comedy.

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Well, that gives a good

Well, that gives a good glimpse. I'm horrible with jargon, I won't fully understand it until I've made a character or two, as with any RPG, but it is a good introduction. Thanks for the update.

Shocking Blu

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:
Radiac wrote:

...

What am I missing here?

Buying the team a pizza maybe?

Or a Ko-fi :).

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Great update!

Great update!

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Way before the shut down was

Way before the shut down was announced I used to discuss with my son and wife what CoH 2 should be like. It is crazy how exactly CoT is like what I envisioned.

Can't wait to get in there and start working on stories, costumes, and builds and then login and play with all y'all!

Got money saved up and set aside for second funding.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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"Money saved up and set aside

"Money saved up and set aside"... that would be nice. LOL

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haha hate to run into either

haha hate to run into either one

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One thing I would say about

One thing I would say about "set bonus" type stuff in general is that I liked the fact the in the CoX system, there was an opportunity cost associated with every choice. It wasn't a clear-cut "do you want more Endo recovery rate y/n?" proposition. You had to make meaningful decisions.

I'd prefer that to a system where you can just cherry pick whatever you want without having to make room for it in any way or without losing some potential alternate benefit somewhere. People can complain about that system from coX being complicated, but the depth of the complexity was what made it an interesting part of the game to actually delve into mentally, for those who did that.

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I totally agree! I think this

I totally agree! I think this will offer a similar feel.

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This update excited me more

This update excited me more than I was expecting, and now I’m already theorising how various builds could work, with more security in making something fairly functional but also versatile without having to rely on set bonuses (Augments that can be applied globally or across sets I really like the sound of.) Now I can’t wait for a character planner to come along, I spent so much of my time in MIDs towards the end of CoH’s life trying to make optimum builds out of concept characters (I still do on occasion).

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All-around good news for me

All-around good news for me on how you're handling one of my favorite aspects of CoH - customizing and enhancing powers.

The update (as any good update should...) leaves me wanting even more details on surrounding systems such as marketplace & vendors, loot & crafting, costuming regions & counts for launch, slider ranges...

Great update, and thank you for responding to the requests for clarification in this thread!

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I'm not sure I'm big on

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

Shocking Blu

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

I don't think CoT is going to be an exception to MMO norm of being able to figure out 95% of the game in-game. At least with the MMO's I am used to playing it wasn't longer than a few hours a day for a few days before I 'got' the game. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

They devs have already said, in this very thread even, that the entire game at launch can be played with basic Augments.

Any extra planning is for people mix/maxing and playing the Meta building game. It adds some fun for a lot of people.

I'll try to find a Mids' (City of Heroes' planner) build from my old laptop to show you the differences that planning a character with precise min/maxing can do, versus having basic enhancements.

The difference can be having a vastly different experience from the base game. Some examples are like planning for extra recovery and recharge reduction, so you literally never have to stop attacking. Or stacking so much defense that most enemies in the game will never be able to hit you, save for the "lol 5%" chance.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

They devs have already said, in this very thread even, that the entire game at launch can be played with basic Augments.

Any extra planning is for people mix/maxing and playing the Meta building game. It adds some fun for a lot of people.

I'll try to find a Mids' (City of Heroes' planner) build from my old laptop to show you the differences that planning a character with precise min/maxing can do, versus having basic enhancements.

The difference can be having a vastly different experience from the base game. Some examples are like planning for extra recovery and recharge reduction, so you literally never have to stop attacking. Or stacking so much defense that most enemies in the game will never be able to hit you, save for the "lol 5%" chance.

PERMADOM!

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Way before the shut down was announced I used to discuss with my son and wife what CoH 2 should be like. It is crazy how exactly CoT is like what I envisioned.

To be fair, this is one of those things where you have to ask the question, "how many ways are there to build a reed boat that floats?"

The similarities between reed boats used on the Nile in Egypt, and on Lake Titicaca (the highest freshwater lake in the world) in South America, are striking ... until you realize that you kinda sorta have to do it that way if you want it to work.

Suffice it to say that City of Titans is taking the spirit of its predecessor and doing it one better, rather than taking the spirit of its predecessor and simply trying to cast the Reincarnate spell on the long dead corpse. ^_~


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jtpaull wrote:
jtpaull wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

I don't think CoT is going to be an exception to MMO norm of being able to figure out 95% of the game in-game. At least with the MMO's I am used to playing it wasn't longer than a few hours a day for a few days before I 'got' the game. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I'm hoping this is the case. I never do seem to figure out the ins and outs enough to come close to keeping up with the Min/Maxers-- one reason, perhaps, why PvP leaves me cold. Anyway, I appreciate the efforts the Devs have put and are continuing to put into building this game. I just hope I'm smart enough to be able to play it. :)

Shocking Blu

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This update excites me! I

This update excites me! I have been watching but really indifferent up to this point...keep up the good work! Any plans for those who would like to contribute to the project missed the kickstarter.....

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

They devs have already said, in this very thread even, that the entire game at launch can be played with basic Augments.

Any extra planning is for people mix/maxing and playing the Meta building game. It adds some fun for a lot of people.

I'll try to find a Mids' (City of Heroes' planner) build from my old laptop to show you the differences that planning a character with precise min/maxing can do, versus having basic enhancements.

The difference can be having a vastly different experience from the base game. Some examples are like planning for extra recovery and recharge reduction, so you literally never have to stop attacking. Or stacking so much defense that most enemies in the game will never be able to hit you, save for the "lol 5%" chance.

PERMADOM!

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Even if the augments and

Even if the augments and refinements system is dauntingly complex, there will be people who dive in, figure it out, and put up how to videos on YouTube, so those who don't want to put in the work are going to be fine.
When I played GW2, I didn't figure out my own builds, I looked stuff up and aped other successful builds that liked (and strayed from them in places because I have to do that to make the build "mine").

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Well the system doesn't look

Well the system doesn't look that complex, no more complex than CoX's enhancement system save for the fact that you can now add "enhancements" to your enhancments. One wouldn't have to do mountains upon mountains of research just to make a viable character, and the augments and refinements are very clear on what they can do.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Way before the shut down was announced I used to discuss with my son and wife what CoH 2 should be like. It is crazy how exactly CoT is like what I envisioned.

To be fair, this is one of those things where you have to ask the question, "how many ways are there to build a reed boat that floats?"

The similarities between reed boats used on the Nile in Egypt, and on Lake Titicaca (the highest freshwater lake in the world) in South America, are striking ... until you realize that you kinda sorta have to do it that way if you want it to work.

Suffice it to say that City of Titans is taking the spirit of its predecessor and doing it one better, rather than taking the spirit of its predecessor and simply trying to cast the Reincarnate spell on the long dead corpse. ^_~

True to an extent, but discussion on these forums, even in this very thread, has clearly demonstrated the many, many ways in which things could have been done differently or have gone further or less far in particular directions. Yet when MWM comes down in a particular place on a mechanic, aesthetic, or issue it's usually right about where I would have wanted.

Which is not to say that I was prescient, just that I'm really damn lucky, and very excited :D!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Well the system doesn't look that complex, no more complex than CoX's enhancement system save for the fact that you can now add "enhancements" to your enhancments.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
notears wrote:

Well the system doesn't look that complex, no more complex than CoX's enhancement system save for the fact that you can now add "enhancements" to your enhancments.

I should've seen that coming... I really should have...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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At the basic level of play

At the basic level of play all you have to worry about are Augments. It is at the crafting stage where Refinements come into play and for launch we aim for a crafted Aug with 1 Ref socket.

That should ease people into things. After launch we plan to expand crafting to Augs with 2 and 3 Ref Sockets. Even then, I don’t foresee people experiencing too much difficulty optimizing their build, at least on the surface because you are mainly dealing with just that power.

The exception being Protection Powers which still have cumulative outputs based on the Protection effect. Then not only are you looking at that one power, but you’lll need to see how the all your powers result in your final Protection value. But we should make it easy to see that as well. If anything, the rule of thumb being “more is better” won’t really hurt you.

I think the real complexity will come when we introduce crafted sets. I have ideas for several layers of complexity there as well (evil laugh).


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Tannim ... I've had a rather

Tannim ... I've had a rather ugly thought.

The plan you've outlined clearly states that Accuracy is a Refinement, not an Augmentation ... and furthermore, the game is meant to be playable with NO Refinements being used at all.

This then means that Accuracy will need to be a "non-essential" factor in use of attack Powers.
To my mind, the only way that is possible/reasonable to assume is if you default every attack Power to working on a basis of You Almost Always Hit by default ... up to and including the basic premise that you "need to fumble in order to miss" your target, meaning ... this ...

Please clarify IF this is the direction you intend to go in for accuracy/hit mechanics.


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I admit to being a fanatic

I admit to being a fanatic about Accuracy in CoH, usually defaulting to+60% Acc in every targeted power - because NOTHING else matters if you miss.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Personally I only put %Acc

Personally I only put %Acc enhancements on long and very long cooldown powers. Nothing is more annoying than waiting 60 seconds or more only to miss.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Tannim ... I've had a rather ugly thought.

The plan you've outlined clearly states that Accuracy is a Refinement, not an Augmentation ... and furthermore, the game is meant to be playable with NO Refinements being used at all.

This then means that Accuracy will need to be a "non-essential" factor in use of attack Powers.
To my mind, the only way that is possible/reasonable to assume is if you default every attack Power to working on a basis of You Almost Always Hit by default ... up to and including the basic premise that you "need to fumble in order to miss" your target, meaning ... this ...

Please clarify IF this is the direction you intend to go in for accuracy/hit mechanics.

Before I anser I want to be clear that I don’t want to delve too deeply into hit mechanics and combat. The thread is primarily here to discuss the update. I’ll try to answer the question with a bit of hit mechanics info but leaning toward how Augs / Refs work.

Your assumption about Accuracy being a nonessential factor is mostly true. Accuracy only matters when Evasion is involved.

There is no “fumble” roll. That would be a MIss Rate which you only need to worry about when affected by particular debuffs:


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Tannim ... I've had a rather ugly thought.

The plan you've outlined clearly states that Accuracy is a Refinement, not an Augmentation ... and furthermore, the game is meant to be playable with NO Refinements being used at all.

This then means that Accuracy will need to be a "non-essential" factor in use of attack Powers.
To my mind, the only way that is possible/reasonable to assume is if you default every attack Power to working on a basis of You Almost Always Hit by default ... up to and including the basic premise that you "need to fumble in order to miss" your target, meaning ... this ...

IMAGE(http://folklore.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tumblr_msrnpeO40g1rrofo2o1_4001.jpg)

Please clarify IF this is the direction you intend to go in for accuracy/hit mechanics.

Before I anser I want to be clear that I don’t want to delve too deeply into hit mechanics and combat. The thread is primarily here to discuss the update. I’ll try to answer the question with a bit of hit mechanics info but leaning toward how Augs / Refs work.

Your assumption about Accuracy being a nonessential factor is mostly true. Accuracy only matters when Evasion is involved.

There is no “fumble” roll. That would be a MIss Rate which you only need to worry about when affected by particular debuffs:

So, can we take that to mean that in a vacuum, no debuffs or evasion (or other possible effects) involved, powers always hit?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Tannim ... I've had a rather ugly thought.

The plan you've outlined clearly states that Accuracy is a Refinement, not an Augmentation ... and furthermore, the game is meant to be playable with NO Refinements being used at all.

This then means that Accuracy will need to be a "non-essential" factor in use of attack Powers.
To my mind, the only way that is possible/reasonable to assume is if you default every attack Power to working on a basis of You Almost Always Hit by default ... up to and including the basic premise that you "need to fumble in order to miss" your target, meaning ... this ...

Please clarify IF this is the direction you intend to go in for accuracy/hit mechanics.

Before I anser I want to be clear that I don’t want to delve too deeply into hit mechanics and combat. The thread is primarily here to discuss the update. I’ll try to answer the question with a bit of hit mechanics info but leaning toward how Augs / Refs work.

Your assumption about Accuracy being a nonessential factor is mostly true. Accuracy only matters when Evasion is involved.

There is no “fumble” roll. That would be a MIss Rate which you only need to worry about when affected by particular debuffs:

So, can we take that to mean that in a vacuum, no debuffs or evasion (or other possible effects) involved, powers always hit?

Correct.


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I kinda like that, the whole

I kinda like that, the whole accuracy and toHit thing was really annoying.


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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
jtpaull wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I'm not sure I'm big on having a game that you have to do research and homework to be able to play (I have a job). But I seriously applaud the effort our Creators are putting into this game for us. I hope they know how much they are appreciated.

I don't think CoT is going to be an exception to MMO norm of being able to figure out 95% of the game in-game. At least with the MMO's I am used to playing it wasn't longer than a few hours a day for a few days before I 'got' the game. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I'm hoping this is the case. I never do seem to figure out the ins and outs enough to come close to keeping up with the Min/Maxers-- one reason, perhaps, why PvP leaves me cold. Anyway, I appreciate the efforts the Devs have put and are continuing to put into building this game. I just hope I'm smart enough to be able to play it. :)

From what the devs are saying, I expect it to end up being similar enough to the old game, where you can min/max if you want, but doing so will never be a requirement. In the old game, without using any sort of build planning or Mids-type app, one could hold one's own against all but the most dedicated/obsessed PvPers and even solo the occasional AV (with a Blaster, no less) -- so I expect CoT will afford much the same experience without devoting significant time to build planning.

Empyrean wrote:

discussion on these forums, even in this very thread, has clearly demonstrated the many, many ways in which things could have been done differently or have gone further or less far in particular directions. Yet when MWM comes down in a particular place on a mechanic, aesthetic, or issue it's usually right about where I would have wanted.

Which is not to say that I was prescient, just that I'm really damn lucky, and very excited :D!

Excellent point. Luckily, when a thread starts to veer dangerously far from the spirit of the old game, Tannim swoops in and crowbars the conversation back on track with MWM's vision.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I kinda like that, the whole accuracy and toHit thing was really annoying.

I think that ultimately it'll depend on how common evasion is among mod types in game. If it's pretty widespread then the end result would be pretty much the same as having a lower base hit chance/rate/accuracy/whatever.

Additionally, as a sort of flipside to common evasion, I really, REALLY hope that evasion doesn't end up treated like Psionics in CoH, where 90% of the time it didn't matter, then you hit a mob that was resistant to it and you took a MASSIVE hit. Most mobs in CoH had basically no psionic resistance, but those that did typically had *50 percent or higher* resistance to it. If evasion is rare, then it's only natural that people won't build for accuracy because generally you don't need it. But then you run up against a mob with high evasion and you're virtually ineffective against it.

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
desviper wrote:

I kinda like that, the whole accuracy and toHit thing was really annoying.

I think that ultimately it'll depend on how common evasion is among mod types in game. If it's pretty widespread then the end result would be pretty much the same as having a lower base hit chance/rate/accuracy/whatever.

I'm hoping it will feel similar to the old game, but that implementing it in this way will give MWM a greater ability to vary and fine-tune it. I for one would be unhappy if every single power hit every single time regardless of the PC/NPC's abilities.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
desviper wrote:

I kinda like that, the whole accuracy and toHit thing was really annoying.

I think that ultimately it'll depend on how common evasion is among mod types in game. If it's pretty widespread then the end result would be pretty much the same as having a lower base hit chance/rate/accuracy/whatever.

I'm hoping it will feel similar to the old game, but that implementing it in this way will give MWM a greater ability to vary and fine-tune it. I for one would be unhappy if every single power hit every single time regardless of the PC/NPC's abilities.

We wlll have to keep an eye on evasion powers on npcs. I know there are some that are meant to have some dosfiness to them.

Also remember that PCs will have Reaerves at their disposal. Having occasion to have a use for Accuracy reserves isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But I wouldn’t want it to be a constant requirement for success either.

Combat will feel a bit different than the old game. We have some similarities, but many differences. We view is as a moving forward.

However we will also keep track on feedback. If the hit system doesn’t feel right to play we can make adjustments. We already have a fall back plan on giving NPS a base miss rate. It will require us to change their attack values to maintain expected performance bounds.

There is more to combat and the hit mechanics that plays into how wnd why we’ve set it up the way we have.

For now, just know that you as a player won’t have to deal with whiffing and you won’t have to delve into Refinements for Accuracy Refs in order to maintain success regularly.


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I take it that the NPCs will

I take it that the NPCs will also auto-hit? That could be... unfortunate. Would certainly make Healers valuable!
Like Fireheart, I put a lot of Accuracy into my attacks, because, as they stated, "If you don't hit, nothing else matters." My corollary was an emphasis on defense, because if you're knocked out, none of your power matters, either. Sounds like that part is still feasible for CoT: Evasion will be a necessary component to not getting hit every time by eveything, if I'm reading this right.

Shocking Blu

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Since CoT isn't going to have

Since CoT isn't going to have the kind of highly tuned encounters one typically sees in the likes of raids of other games, it shouldn't be an issue. If reaching something like a "hit cap" is mandatory then it stops being fun.* Without having to worry about missing 25% of the time we have the freedom to play around more with our refinements. And as others have mentioned or hinted, that means it'll sometimes be the better choice not to "plan" (is that the word we're using for crafting?) augments with three refinement sockets since the cost may outweigh the benefit.



* After years and years they've also removed that requirement in WoW. I doubt many people miss it.

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I didn't mind "whiffing". I

I didn't mind "whiffing". I mean, every now and then you miss. Missing, while "bad" in the moment, is an integral part of what makes sports, for example, exciting and fun. Without the possibility of failure, success is much less exciting.

I especially didn't like the way Champions handled this, where you never missed but your attacks were often reduced to lame 1's or 2's. Neither the frustration of the miss nor the thrill and relief of the good hit. Just... meh.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

I take it that the NPCs will also auto-hit?

It would only seem fair from a system foundation point of view.

But I would also think that practically speaking no player would ever be caught in a situation where they don't have at least some amount of active debuff on the NPCs or basic defense against the NPCs' attacks so it would be hard to see any NPC ever routinely enjoying "auto-hits" against PCs.

Empyrean wrote:

I didn't mind "whiffing". I mean, every now and then you miss. Missing, while "bad" in the moment, is an integral part of what makes sports, for example, exciting and fun. Without the possibility of failure, success is much less exciting.

I also don't mind occasionally missing in games like this. Makes things more "realistic" somehow. I think the main thing people -don't- like are streaks of misses. Which leads to several related questions:

1) Will there be active "streak breakers" in CoT or will the system intrinsically make streaking impossible? (just to be clear I'm talking about hit-n-miss streaks, not the kind that can get you arrested when you strip naked and run around a football field during the championship game...)

2) Will there be a "one-shot kill blocker" in CoT? In case you were unaware CoH installed a one-shot kill avoidance mechanic in the game that worked like this: Let's say at full health your character has 1,000 HPs. Then let's say while at full HPs you suffered a huge single sourced attack of 5,000 HPs. With the one-hit kill blocker in place instead of being insta-killed you would be reduced to 1 HP. Now of course if you suffered a second attack for -any- amount of damage a half-a-second later you'd then be dead. But the working theory was that as long as you still had that 1 HP you could technically react and potentially save your butt from being killed outright by the first massive attack. This one-hit kill blocker would not work if you were not already at full HPs - if you were at 999 HPs and that 5,000 HP attack hit you you'd be toast as expected.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Looks amazing!! Can't wait

Looks amazing!! Can't wait to finally play. It's been a long road. I can finally see the light.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Since CoT isn't going to have the kind of highly tuned encounters one typically sees in the likes of raids of other games, it shouldn't be an issue. If reaching something like a "hit cap" is mandatory then it stops being fun.* Without having to worry about missing 25% of the time we have the freedom to play around more with our refinements. And as others have mentioned or hinted, that means it'll sometimes be the better choice not to "plan" (is that the word we're using for crafting?) augments with three refinement sockets since the cost may outweigh the benefit.

That's a really good point. More than any one specific mechanic, I think the design element that will be most critical in keeping the spirit of the old game is one where there is no One Way to do anything, and no 'required' elements of any build -- one where the majority of content can be completed using any build, any augs/refs, any team composition or numbers, etc.

Empyrean wrote:

I didn't mind "whiffing". I mean, every now and then you miss. Missing, while "bad" in the moment, is an integral part of what makes sports, for example, exciting and fun. Without the possibility of failure, success is much less exciting.

Agreed.

Empyrean wrote:

I especially didn't like the way Champions handled this, where you never missed but your attacks were often reduced to lame 1's or 2's. Neither the frustration of the miss nor the thrill and relief of the good hit. Just... meh.

Every now and then something reminds me of the incredible resilience of the human psyche. In this case, it's the realisation of how much of the trauma of playing CO has been suppressed in my brain, such that I am able to forget things like this.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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@Lothic:

@Lothic:
1. No streak-breaker code.
2. Yes one shot code.

@Empyrean:
Yeah CO’s damage variables weren’t the best. We’re going to be much more fair in that regard.

I know it is hard, but please don’t get too caught up on thiis. Having additional Accuracy may provide other benefits besides dealing with Evasion. And you only have small tid bits of info regarding combat mechanics and don’t have the whole of it yet.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And you only have small tid bits of info regarding combat mechanics and don’t have the whole of it yet.

That's what prompts the "but have you considered THIS?" questioning, due to that very incompleteness.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

2. Yes one shot code.

Thanks for the answer and it's good to hear there will be "one shot code" in CoT.

It rarely came into play but I do recall one specific time when the one shot mechanic actually saved an entire Master of Statesman Task Force run for the whole team during the last 5 minutes of the attempt. Basically I made the mistake of getting tagged by a several thousand HP attack that should have otherwise insta-killed me but in the split second I was slammed down to 1 HP I was able to pop a bunch of green pills and fire off some self-heals that saved my ass and the entire Master run. Good times. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I know, that is why I

I know, that is why I prefaced that statement by saying "I know this is hard"...


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If the default assumption of

If the default assumption of the game mechanics is ... Everything Hits, UNLESS ... then the "onus" of not getting hit/hurt/affected falls on the target, not on the attacker. That in turn creates certain asymmetries that can favor offense over defense, and when you stack too many of those biases into the system, you wind up overshooting your target range of performance boundaries. It's also a situation in which the temptation of applying "Immunities" to attacks becomes very very strong on the design side of things, which opens its own can of worms.

There's also an important psychological factor at work here.
When you set the baseline standard as being "every attack works" by default, that triggers a whole set of associations with a "can't lose" (or even a "can't miss") mentality.

Compare and contrast that with the following real world statistical reporting (I've bolded the relevant bits).

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html

Quote:

New York City police statistics show that simply hitting a target, let alone hitting it in a specific spot, is a difficult challenge. In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department’s Firearms Discharge Report. The police shot and killed 13 people last year.

In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. They shot and killed nine people that year.

In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away. Nearly half the shots they fired last year were within that distance.

In Los Angeles, where there are far fewer shots discharged, the police fired 67 times in 2006 and had 27 hits, a 40 percent hit rate, which, while better than New York’s, still shows that they miss targets more often they hit them.

Bad marksmanship? Police officials and law enforcement experts say no, contending that the number of misses underscores the tense and unpredictable nature of these situations. For example, a 43 percent hit rate for shots fired from zero to six feet might seem low, but at that range it is very likely that something has already gone wrong: perhaps an officer got surprised, or had no cover, or was wrestling with the suspect.

“When you factor in all of the other elements that are involved in shooting at an adversary, that’s a high hit rate,” said Raymond W. Kelly, the New York police commissioner. “The adrenaline flow, the movement of the target, the movement of the shooter, the officer, the lighting conditions, the weather ... I think it is a high rate when you consider all of the variables.”

And then there's this ...

https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/

Quote:

In 1990, NYPD officer hit potential was only 19%. Eighty-one percent of the rounds they fired at criminals missed. At less than three yards, they hit only 38% of the time. From 3-7 yards, 11.5% and from 7-15 yards, only 9.4%.

My personal experience validates the NYPD statistics, but statistics from the Metro-Dade Police Department from 1988-1994 published in a Police Policy Studies Council report indicate officers fired app. 1300 rounds at suspects, missing more than 1,100 times. They hit only about 15.4% of their shots, most of these from near-touching distance. During that period, using revolvers, they missed 65% of the time, but oddly, 75% of the time with semiautomatic handguns.

This is odd in that normally, agencies that transition from revolvers to semiautos experience significantly increased hit probability rates. I can only imagine this Metro-Dade failing was a matter of inadequate training, or perhaps faulty data gathering.

More data from the same report for the NYPD during 1994-2000, when the NYPD was far more semiautomatic heavy, are interesting, and sobering. At 0-2 yards, the hit rate was 69%, but from 3-7 yards, only 19%. With increasing distance the hit rate dramatically declined, with only 2% from 16-25 yards and 1% at 25 yards and greater.

Now I know that one of the first things that people are going to say in response to this is ... "But, we're supers!" ... which is true, but completely overlooks the fact that in City of Heroes (and presumably City of Titans as well) we weren't going out and fighting "unpowered" Civilians at any point. EVERYONE (and everything) we fought was ALSO superpowered, meaning that the "But, we're supers!" argument washes out as a consideration.

The second thing people will say in response to this is ... "But missing SUCKS!" ... which is ALSO true (psychologically speaking, from the Player's standpoint). That's why video games, particularly of the Tab Targeted RPG variety, tend to make missing your target as unlikely as possible, up to (and enforcing) a 95% or better chance to hit whatever it is that you're attacking. In other words ... THIS ...

Out in the real world, you're more likely to miss than you are to hit.
In games, we expect to hit WAY MORE OFTEN than we miss.
It's one of those "super capable" things to feel like you just can't miss where the whole combat experience starts taking on something of a shooting fish in a barrel overtone to it, because the hyper accuracy (relative to real life) for all intents and purposes removes a variable from the equation of being able to anticipate outcomes. You attack ... you hit ... do damage. Done.

But Tannim is right, this is something that's a bit out of topic for this thread. I only brought it up because of the "you can play without Refinements just fine" angle on things.


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Ah yes, gotta have realistic

Ah yes, gotta have realistic accuracy for my eye beams.

Or telekinesis.

Or any other kind of psychic attack.

Missing with some attacks make sense but not with others. And for a game it's better to go with a more action movie kind of thing where the only time people seem to miss is when an enemy dodges an attack.

I like the "100% hit rate unless" system, let's dodgey folks know they're doing good. If you're a dodger and you know that everything has 100% chance to hit and you see that sweet sweet "miss miss miss miss" (or dodge, or evade, or what have you) it'll probably feel pretty good. On the other hand having an enemy that you can't seem to land a blow on makes them seem a lot more dangerous.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I'm willing to trust that the

I'm willing to trust that the Devs know what they're doing, and will give us the best possible system. :)

Shocking Blu

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Yes as players level up we

Yes as players level up we can begin to make things more difficult in multiple ways. Enemies that evade, enemies that have Defense to a style of attack, enemies that Resist a damage type.

There is no one solution fits all situations for us.

I understand Redlynne’s point or contention and myself brought up the psychology of game design for combat and missing when we were designing this YEARS ago.
I am not going to rehash that subject.

For now, this is how the system is set up as its base.

As we play test combat - not just simulate - and if this by a large factor - doesn’t feel right we can change it.

We can add a base MIss Rate to all powers.
We can add a base Evasion to the Character.

Then we would have to change the damage values of every power in the game. It would be quite an overhaul. But not an insurmountable one.

Advantages are that we have variable effect application in our hit metrics.
We don’t have to deal with a “luck bonus” in early levels.
We don’t have to deal with balancing a hit streak factor.

I have also played games where there were no misses but variables to reducing and increasing damage. Getting her sweet multiplier still felt just as great to me (and others that were playing). On that accord, I am not too worried about crits not feeling impactful.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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Crits are a;ways good. :D

Crits are a;ways good. :D

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From the associated Facebook

From the associated Facebook post of this update:

Another possible delay on getting the Avatar Builder to us? Before it was communicated that this would be available around "the middle of this year" by avel, who then said that his higher-ups claimed that was "close enough" to being true.

We on the forums were hoping, and under the impression, the actual game's beta would be "out before the end of the year."

So where's the disconnect? Did one party grossly miscommunicate one aspect of this, or was the Facebook post uniformed?
Or maybe since the Avatar Builder is legally the game, just in a smaller format, what they mean here? But then if that was the case, that's usually not communicated on Facebook... ????

So many questions. It would be great to get some clarification.

When is (the projected launch for) the builder?
When is (the projected launch for) the gameplay beta?

Mordheim13
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Well, at least their aiming

Well, at least they're aiming to have it out by the end of the year. Since there are no misses in this game, then, as long as the target date doesn't evade... ;)
Seriously, though, I am sure they are working to get it out to us as soon as possible. Patience is key.

Shocking Blu

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It will be interesting to see

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in combat. I can't toss my support behind the "PC and NPC attacks always hit, unless..." idea yet, but at least it is open to evaluation.

CoH's method of applying a 50% base hit rate for NPCs and 75% for players seemed about right - players being more "super" than the typical minion, but not perfect, and minions being more accurate than a real person. That allowed the designers to make the NPC's hits fairly damaging and debuffs fairly strong (as they would often miss) rather than a steady stream of predictable incoming damage and small debuffs. This added some variability to combat that some people seemed to enjoy, but maybe others did not. Then we used defensive powers (and taunt & controls) to mitigate that variability, converting it into either a steady stream on a harder target that could be outhealed, or a still variable but very low chance to receive a spike of occasional damage to a PC who could then use emergency tactics (phase, aid self, inspirations, break line-of-sight) to recover.

I am curious to see if the planned combat system can still create those opportunities, which I found fun.

I guess if I had to design it myself, I'd pursue a middle ground - setting player attacks to be 100% base accuracy, so that a miss streakbreaker is not needed and accuracy boosts are not required to avoid frustration in common fights. NPCs (who by nature will outnumber PCs in most fights) would get somewhere from 50 to 60% base accuracy, but with the severity of damage/controls/debuffs tuned to match this reduced hit rate. That gives the players (even without evasion and other defenses) the thrill of being lucky when NPCs miss, but a bit of panic when a few heavier hits get through in a row. Everything else (evasion effects, controls, etc) would stay fundamentally the same as announced so far.

Either way, it's a tough call to make, and a lot of thought to balance any system to be fun, challenging, and unpredictable in just the right way, so I don't envy Tannim & company as they do so. Thanks for sharing the current plans with us.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

From the associated Facebook post of this update:

Another possible delay on getting the Avatar Builder to us? Before it was communicated that this would be available around "the middle of this year" by avel, who then said that his higher-ups claimed that was "close enough" to being true.

We on the forums were hoping, and under the impression, the actual game's beta would be "out before the end of the year."

So where's the disconnect? Did one party grossly miscommunicate one aspect of this, or was the Facebook post uniformed?
Or maybe since the Avatar Builder is legally the game, just in a smaller format, what they mean here? But then if that was the case, that's usually not communicated on Facebook... ????

So many questions. It would be great to get some clarification.

When is (the projected launch for) the builder?
When is (the projected launch for) the gameplay beta?

There is closed and open Beta as well. Open Beta will be 4-5 months after the closed/backer Beta access. And with Facebook being the way it is, experience tells us it is better to point to the open when answering questions on there.

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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One thing about the Avatar

One thing about the Avatar Builder I'd like to see is labeled colors. If there's 256 of them and several people on the team are colorblind like me, I'm sure they can see the idea.

I had a cheat sheet for CoH with the colors labeled that I'd reference. But having a tooltip or similar either identify the color by name like "80% Yellow" or even by RGB color "80%R, 80%G 0%B" (or both!) would be amazing. Just so I won't make the same mistake as in CoH where, for a while, my main had green hair instead of blonde hair.

Not there's anything wrong with green hair, mind you, I actually like it, but just only when it's on purpose.

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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

One thing about the Avatar Builder I'd like to see is labeled colors. If there's 256 of them and several people on the team are colorblind like me, I'm sure they can see the idea.

I had a cheat sheet for CoH with the colors labeled that I'd reference. But having a tooltip or similar either identify the color by name like "80% Yellow" or even by RGB color "80%R, 80%G 0%B" (or both!) would be amazing. Just so I won't make the same mistake as in CoH where, for a while, my main had green hair instead of blonde hair.

Not there's anything wrong with green hair, mind you, I actually like it, but just only when it's on purpose.

This specific topic of labeling the colors in the Avatar Builder has, IIRC, come up before.

I think someone had the idea of handling that with tooltips. Basically hover over the color for a second or so and a tiny pop-up with a unique name could appear. Like you I'd probably favor them using a textual version of RGB values (i.e. 80%R, 80%G 0%B) than someone trying to describe them like abstract paint colors (i.e. Sky Blue or Forrest Green). This way you could choose to refer to colors by specific labels instead of maybe by Row/Column positions like I basically used to do in CoH.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

Thanks for the latest estimates! And I have no problem with you tossing out "worse case" open beta dates first on Fakebook (yes I did mean to spell it that way). I'd rather you say date X there and have it actually be earlier than X for KS backers.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

Thanks for the latest estimates! And I have no problem with you tossing out "worse case" open beta dates first

Yeah seriously! As always with your clarifications, greatly appreciated. Thanks, Doc!

Mordheim13
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

From the associated Facebook post of this update:

Another possible delay on getting the Avatar Builder to us? Before it was communicated that this would be available around "the middle of this year" by avel, who then said that his higher-ups claimed that was "close enough" to being true.

We on the forums were hoping, and under the impression, the actual game's beta would be "out before the end of the year."

So where's the disconnect? Did one party grossly miscommunicate one aspect of this, or was the Facebook post uniformed?
Or maybe since the Avatar Builder is legally the game, just in a smaller format, what they mean here? But then if that was the case, that's usually not communicated on Facebook... ????

So many questions. It would be great to get some clarification.

When is (the projected launch for) the builder?
When is (the projected launch for) the gameplay beta?

There is closed and open Beta as well. Open Beta will be 4-5 months after the closed/backer Beta access. And with Facebook being the way it is, experience tells us it is better to point to the open when answering questions on there.

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

Thank you for the specific answer. Perhaps this will satisfy those who were most worried about it. Even Lothic seemed to be satisfied... for the moment. :)

Shocking Blu

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Wow. I never had a problem

Wow. I never had a problem with how CoH did ACC. Don't understand the hate I'm reading here.

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ye

ye

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Don't understand the hate I'm reading here.

Considering the fact that what you're seeing isn't hate that's probably the root cause of your confusion.

Magic 8 Ball says ... Try Again.


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I haven't seen any hate. I

I haven't seen any hate. I have seen concern, but understandable concern given the keyhole required due to knowing that adjustment will be necessary over the next few months and it would be better to not set an expectation only to then have to withdraw it due to playtesting.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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