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Discuss: What We Can Do: Augments and Refinements

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notears
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You know... this sounds weird

You know... this sounds weird and bad, but that's really only because it's different, and though it may be hard at times one must be able to accept different things in this world. So you know what? I'm just going to assume you know what you're doing, keep up the good work :]

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Scott Jackson
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I think I understand it

I think I understand it better now...thank you, Tannim. Time to give myself a pop quiz to check if I'm learning -

It seems that everything revolves around the "Control Value" - which is mechanically equivalent to "magnitude" from CoH, but can now be influenced more directly and in a non-integer manner. Control effects have fixed durations that can neither be improved nor reduced [edit: but will last longer against lower-ranked NPCs]. From a player's perspective, an outgoing power's Control Value can be improved by slotting or by getting a critical hit, while an incoming effect's Control Value can be reduced by a percentage based on the defense and resistance powers currently active on the player.

The requirement to stack enough Control Value to achieve a hard control provides a basic level of protection to all player classes beginning at level 1; it functions as a partial immunity that must be overcome even against a player who is otherwise unprotected. I'm not hearing any difference between classes or levels in this amount of base protection (e.g. must stack 5 Control Value against a level 8 Operator, but 10 against a level 15 Stalwart), but it sounds like NPCs will get this protection in different amounts based on their rank. I'll call it Anti-Control Value for the moment...maybe it has a real name that we haven't heard?

Example:

Player characters have an inherent Anti-Control Value of [X] against disorientation, a.k.a. stun. They will not be disoriented until enemy NPCs stack Control Value above [X] to overcome this, but they will experience some non-binary effects between 0 and [X]. I am not yet clear on whether a different type of control (e.g. holds) has a separate Anti-Control Value that must be overcome, but that seems likely. It is also not clear how severe the non-binary effects will be when Control Value stacks up close to [X], or whether the effects increase linearly.
Let's say the player's Anti-Control Value [X] = 5 for my example.

Player characters can take powers that reduce the Control Value of incoming effects by a percentage; some of these powers will work against all effects but others may only work against effects tied to a certain damage type (e.g. physical) and/or position (e.g. melee).
Let's say this PC is a Stalwart and has the protection primary power set of Invulnerability (https://cityoftitans.com/content/protection-sets).
The PC has no evasion because their powersets do not offer it - at least at their current level - and they aren't familiar with (or have not met the prerequisites for) the Tertiary that contains it.
They are also not on a team with anyone who can apply additional protections. I've got to try to keep things simpler for the example!
The player is about to attack NPCs that have flash-bang grenades, which are set up as ranged physical attacks that can disorient.
They have taken Toughness and Indestructible and activated Indestructible. Now I'll make up a few numbers for those powers...
Incoming control effects are reduced in Control Value by 15% due to Indestructible (which provides "medial" defense to ranged attacks, among other things).
Incoming control effects are further reduced in Control Value by 5% due to Toughness (which provides "light" resistance to physical attacks, among other things).
These defense and resistance powers give a total of 20% reduction in control value to incoming stuns from ranged physical sources - such as flash-bang grenades...

The player approaches an enemy spawn group of 10 enemy NPCs, that are matched in level to the PC (so there are no adjustments to power effectiveness or accuracy due to the relative levels).
Only 3 have control abilities - a boss and two minions, and they each have a disorienting flash-bang grenade power with damage type = physical, position = ranged.
The bosses' grenade power has a control value of 3, a duration of 10s, and a recharge of 8 seconds. The minion's version of the power has a control value of 1 and a duration of 5s, and a recharge of 14 seconds.
Their AI has decided (or been told) that the most effective use of the grenades is to use them immediately whenever available.
The NPC AI detects the player approaching but has a slight "anti-360-no-scope" delay which allows the player to get into melee before the NPCs can fire, if the PC is running fast enough and the NPCs have not been previously alerted.

Time=0sec: the first attack is fired by the NPCs as the player reaches melee range and presses an attack button of their own to draw the attention of the boss.
The grenades all hit since the player has no evasion and NPC attacks have a base 100% accuracy, but at least none of them are critical hits.
The disorient effects would sum up to a total Control Value of 5, but the PC's 20% reduction applies, so the PC only "feels" a Total Current Control Value of 4 (for the first 5 seconds of the fight, until the minions' grenade effects expire).
The PC is not hard-controlled since Total Current Control Value (4) is below their Anti-Control Value (5), but they experience non-binary effects of about four-fifths of whatever is the maximum. We haven't been told what non-binary effect(s) will apply while disorienting control effects are stacking. I am assuming a linear nature to the non-binary effects, but it could be somewhat exponential instead, or a step function.

Time=8sec:
Total Current Control Value has dropped to 2.4, since only the effect from the boss' grenade still applies (10s duration, and Control Value 3 reduced by 20%).
The boss fires another grenade immediately off cooldown, and again it hits (100% accuracy, no PC evasion). Unfortunately it was a critical hit, so its Control Value was increased by 50%* to 4.5. *for example
The PC's 20% Control Value reduction means that the boss' second grenade applies 3.6 Control Value to the Total Current Control Value, raising it to 6.0. The PC is disoriented.

Time=10sec:
The player didn't take any action. The boss' first grenade effect expires and the Total Current Control Value drops to 3.6 so the PC can move again but still has non-binary effects against them. Fractionally, 3.6 / 5 of the maximum effect.

Time=14sec:
Before this time, the player defeated the minions so they cannot fire their grenades. The team has badly injured the boss so its AI chooses to flee. It is defeated soon after.
The PC is still under the non-binary effects from the second boss grenade and will remain so until Time=20sec...unless this effect has been configured to expire on defeat of the source.

End of example

Is there anything glaringly wrong in my example of how the offensive and defensive control mechanics would interact in a real fight, besides that my power numbers (durations, control values, etc) are fake?

Mordheim13
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Awareness DeBuffs would make

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

Shocking Blu

Tannim222
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A few things Scott.

A few things Scott.

First Defense is calculated before Resistance. If an attack of 100 comes through and you have 50% Defense vs that type of effect, it is reduced to 50. If you have resistance to that effect's damage type it is reduced to 25%. The total reduction received was 75%.

We keep duration of effects the same. A PC's base duration for a Disorient would be the same as an NPC mooks or boss' duration. KISS. The values for a Mook and Boss would also most likely remain the same. Unless we wanted to make a particular pawn type very unique (Widow's hold anyone?).

There isn't a partial "immunity" to all players. Immunity is the wrong way to think about it since any control effect has a non-binary effect on the target when it hits. I understand why the phrase partial was used with immunity but the word is too loaded.

So let's keep this example simple. NPCs have a disorient attack, 1 sec cast time, 10 physical disorient, 5sec duration, 10s recharge.
PC has Defense to Controls: 15%
10% Physical Resistance.

It normally takes 2 controls to fully affect the PC, so for this example a total of 20 disorient points need to land. We will ignore the to-hit system because it is variable depending on the hit roll.We'll assume a nominal hit roll for this example.
The PC would reduce the Disorient attacks first by Defense to 8.5 Disorient. Then Resistance is applied, for 7.65 Disorient points. The PC went from being fully Disoriented in 2 hits to 3 hits if they all stack within the same 5 second duration.


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Lord Nightmare
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I just figured Awareness has

I just figured Awareness has to do with stealth

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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notears
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

I just figured Awareness has to do with stealth

Well I checked the powers and on vampiric emanation's leech essence it says that you take away some of your enemies awareness, and it specifies that this also makes it harder for them to hit you. Actually looking through both the protection and support, there seem to be some way to give yourself some protections no matter what powers you pick. Preservation is all about handing out debuffs and buffs out willy nilly, so you could use that to debuff your enemies so they can't hit you, strategy has a lot of "Give you and everyone around you a buff" so I can imagine you can give yourself evasion with that, with barrier generation you can give yourself a shield and devices have a lot of things that can control your target or make a drone that gives people either buffs or debuffs, so even if you don't want a protection tertiary, you can still give yourself some ways of mitigating damage.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Tannim222
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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

That is the start of it, yes. Take it a step further. If the Awareness is debuffed reducing Perception, When it is harder to Perceive it is harder to hit something.


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Mordheim13
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

That is the start of it, yes. Take it a step further. If the Awareness is debuffed reducing Perception, When it is harder to Perceive it is harder to hit something.

Sure, that makes sense. I mean, if you don't notice it, why would you be shooting at it? Or, perhaps it's more like in D&D (or Pathfinder), where even if you know there's an invisible person around, and you're pretty sure you know where they are, you still have a 50% chance of missing them altogether because you can't target them as well as if you could see them. For all you know, they're not even where you're aiming.

Shocking Blu

notears
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

That is the start of it, yes. Take it a step further. If the Awareness is debuffed reducing Perception, When it is harder to Perceive it is harder to hit something.

Alright so I think I know what this means, if someone is more unaware of someone they have a harder time seeing them, but it also means that if they do see you they have a harder time of hitting you but only the target that was unaware. Powers like trick of the light and leech essence however, reduce a guys awareness of everyone, therefore making it harder for him to hit anyone. Am I right?

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Tannim222
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

That is the start of it, yes. Take it a step further. If the Awareness is debuffed reducing Perception, When it is harder to Perceive it is harder to hit something.

Alright so I think I know what this means, if someone is more unaware of someone they have a harder time seeing them, but it also means that if they do see you they have a harder time of hitting you but only the target that was unaware. Powers like trick of the light and leech essence however, reduce a guys awareness of everyone, therefore making it harder for him to hit anyone. Am I right?

Debuffing Awarenss reduces Perception which also increases Miss Rate. Debuffed Awareness isn’t all or nothing. Nearly every mechanic in the game is non-binary.


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notears
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
notears wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Awareness DeBuffs would make it harder for your target to notice you, right? Much like an Invisibility power? Like when Jean Grey made the X-Men "invisible" by simply telling those around them that they saw nothing. Or am I way off base?

That is the start of it, yes. Take it a step further. If the Awareness is debuffed reducing Perception, When it is harder to Perceive it is harder to hit something.

Alright so I think I know what this means, if someone is more unaware of someone they have a harder time seeing them, but it also means that if they do see you they have a harder time of hitting you but only the target that was unaware. Powers like trick of the light and leech essence however, reduce a guys awareness of everyone, therefore making it harder for him to hit anyone. Am I right?

Debuffing Awarenss reduces Perception which also increases Miss Rate. Debuffed Awareness isn’t all or nothing. Nearly every mechanic in the game is non-binary.

All right I think I understand

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Excellent update, so thank

Excellent update, so thank you to all who've contributed. Empyrean's 'concept driven min/maxer' is a pretty good description of how I played in CoH, and the huge scope for experimentation and build creation was a big draw of the game for me. The system MWM have designed is really looking like a good blend of simplicity for those who don't want to spend more than a few minutes on build design, while offering layers of complexity for those of us for whom it's a highly enjoyable facet of the game.

The approach of 'you always hit anything that lacks some kind of evasion rating' works fine in my mind, and raises interesting options like having a single attack you slot for high accuracy, to deal with the occasional pesky 'dodgy' critter while keeping other powers more focused on other attributes. Equally, should one's powerset happen to have an attack with an inherent evasion debuff, one could augment just that for accuracy and naturally develop a 'couple of jabs to get them off balance then wade in with your knockout punches' fighting style.

One tiny thing that jars slightly is the terms 'optimizer' and 'attenuator' don't seem grammatically harmonious with the other four augments. Optimization and Attenuation, to my mind at least, scan better with Damage, Control, Protection and Extension. Passive Charge Time is also a bit of a mouthful. Could it possibly be represented just as charge time without adding ambiguity or losing meaningful information?

Keep up the good work and hurry up with second chance so you can take my money! I've no idea what I was doing in 2013 but it must have been pretty distracting for me to have been completely unaware of the first one.

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Numerous powers in CoH

Numerous powers in CoH included a (hidden or implied) aggro-range reduction. One could 'Smoke' the enemy and then walk by, or call up 'Steamy Mist' and walk by. Or you could use 'Invisibility'. Each in its own way allowed a player to escape drawing aggro.

I'm presuming that 'Awareness Debuffs' have a similar effect through some mechanic. Personally, I prefer to have my aggro 'footprint' reduced and not debuff the enemy's awareness by some unknown variable. Then you'd have to 'Smoke' them twice, just in case.

Be Well!
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And think the other way as

And think the other way as well, a Stalwart using a power designed to increase perception of them, therefore reducing the attention being paid to their teammates.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

And think the other way as well, a Stalwart using a power designed to increase perception of them, therefore reducing the attention being paid to their teammates.

"Look at me! I'm on Fire! I've got all the sparkling lights! Hit ME and not those dull fellows over there!"

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Ok, the reductions from

Ok, the reductions from defense and resistance are multiplicative rather than additive, and each control type (e.g. Disorient) has its own separately-maintained point total:
Applied Control Value [Disorient] = Incoming Control Value [Disorient] * (100% - Total Defense to Controls bearing this damage type & position) * (100% - Total Resistance to Controls bearing this damage type & position).
It also seems that Resistance will tend to have fewer (or no) restrictions on what damage types and positions it protects against, based on past comments.

Please allow me to revise my previous naming of the player's Anti-Control Value (set to 20 disorient points in your example) to "Control Value Threshold [for control type X]". That now seems more accurate to me, as a name.

Unfortunately, I am struggling to think of these "Control Value Thresholds" as something other than a very necessary partial immunity to the most severe outcome of controls. To me, "immunity" is a good thing when designed correctly - it might be complete but limited in duration, such as phasing or breaking line of sight to get temporary damage immunity in CoH; it may last until overcome, like an ablative damage shield that protects health from a fixed amount of damage; it may be both, like a max health buff that expires even if no damage is taken. It may take even stranger forms, like anti-one-shot code. I think all of these are reasonable gameplay elements, but I realize that these forms of limited and partial immunity could remind people of immunities sometimes found in PvP, like long control timeouts or nearly unbreakable damage blocks. Thresholds clearly belong in the reasonable group - letting some effects through, and being overcome by sustained attempts.

This Threshold protection obviously has a significant role in PvE gameplay, and is crucial to making use of the defense and resistance-based reductions in Control Value. It even defines the range over which the non-binary effects will occur. Is there some internally-used name and description for this inherent protection that you would like us to use, which may also guide me away from thinking of it as partial/limited immunity?

Your example confirmed to me (through the reference to "Disorient points") that each type of control (Fear, Disorient, Hold, etc) has a corresponding, separate Control Value Threshold inherently protecting the player. I am curious if there will be any protection powers that guard against one type of control (such as fear) - all examples so far seem to use "wide" protections from all controls associated with a damage type or position, rather than "deep" protection against a specific control type like fear.

Now I am puzzled on one aspect, after seeing your note regarding base values & durations...what makes a control-using boss more threatening than a control-using mook, if both have the same control power with the same base Control Value and base duration?
Are you making multiple control powers available to the boss so it can stack the same control effect more easily, but the mook will only have one? Is the rank difference of the source (mook hitting player, versus boss hitting player) going to apply some multiplier to the base control duration, since it was noted that a player power's base control duration is multiplied by some factor for target rank (duration higher for mook target than for boss target)?

As always, I'm thankful for hints and answers.

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Does that potentially risk
Doctor Tyche wrote:

And think the other way as well, a Stalwart using a power designed to increase perception of them, therefore reducing the attention being paid to their teammates.

Does that risk drawing aggro from a second nearby spawn group that would otherwise be out of aggro range, by effectively increasing the range at which the Stalwart can be seen and deemed hazardous?

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So are you saying you’ve

So are you saying you’ve already used an awareness debuff on us all? If so I’ld say you’ve made a valid argument. ????

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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If a stalwart attracts more

If a stalwart attracts more awareness, does that mean enemies will have a harder time hitting people who aren't that stalwart? Because if that's the case then I'm getting more and more exited for how this perception system interacts with combat!!

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Umm, Dr. Tyche is mistaken.

Umm, Dr. Tyche is mistaken. Buffing Awarenss Max increases Perception range but does not work for making the NPC attack you.

There are 2 separate ways to handle that. One is by the threat rating the character carries. Attacking (anything that is used to hit something else), being hit and reducing the effect of the hit (or avoiding the hit), buffing, and positioning all generate threat. The NPCs can “see the threat” and choose to target it.

The other is Taunt, which is a non-binary control which forces powers that are attacks to target the the Taunter.

Now to Scott’s other query.
Each separate control effect does not have its own threshold. I was using an extremely simplified example to get a point across.

We will have to do a full update on how non-binary controls work to explain everything. For now, some share a - let’s call it ‘control channel’ with each other.
Each ‘control channel’ has a specific result in how it affects powers in terms of relating to the originator.

We have names for them, but as I said, worth iits own update.

For this update the best thing to understand is that using a Control Aug increases how strong the control is. It does not directly affect the duration of the control.

The base control value is used against the target by its rank and determines the extension of the base duration.
A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.

So we'll want to spam/stack lots of controls on the big uglies?

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Fireheart

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Yes. Similar to the old game.

Yes. Similar to the old game. Except when the ugly needs more than one control and it is hit with one, ithere will be a non-binary effect at work.


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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

"Look at me! I'm on Fire! I've got all the sparkling lights! Hit ME and not those dull fellows over there!"

Precedent ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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Know what I always hated

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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I think I am starting to

I think I am starting to understand how a control buff adds strength to an effect and also adds duration.

Here I go. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Let's say that the average target has a base control resistance of 1.0.

This means that any control with a strength less than 1.0 is not going to have any effect.
and as soon as the stacks of control exceed 1.0, the control effect starts to kick in. But we know it's not binary, so there have to be degrees of that control type pre-built into the system. Whether those degrees are expressed as a step function or some linear or polynomial relationship doesn't really matter for this discussion.

So, for example, a snare or immobilize would be a complete stop at full strength, but would be a 75% slow at 3/4 strength, a 50% slow at 1/2 strength and so on.

Going back to my average target, if the control strength exceeds the control resist by only a little bit, then we will only see a slight slowing of the character. But if the control strength exceeds the resist value by a value of 4 or more than the character is stopped. And that's the extent that the calculations need to be made for the attack.

From that point on, the target's base control resist starts eating away at the stacks of control that have been placed on it. Let's say for purposes of this discussion that it ticks every second. So if control strength 5 have been placed on our average character with a control resist of 1.0, then it exceeds the resistance by 4.
A second later the control strength is 3 and the target can now move at 25% of its normal speed.
A second after that, the control strength is 2 and the target can move at 50% of its normal speed.
A second after that, the control level is only at 1 and the target can move at 75% of its speed.
Finally, 4 seconds after the strength 5 control effect was placed, it drops below the 1.0 control resist value of the target and the target breaks free and can move at its normal speed. But right at that point, your melee enforcer who has an attack with a very weak secondary control effect with a strength of 1.0 hits the target, bringing the total control strength back up above 1.0 and the target goes back to moving at only 75% of its normal speed until its control resistance can bring the control strength back below its control resistance of 1.0 a second later.

So the stronger the control resistance of a target, the stronger the controls have to be to have an effect and the faster the target can break out of the controls that have been placed upon it.

Am I close?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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What im wondering is if there

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

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I will yield on the control

I will yield on the control questions for a while. Perhaps the eventual update will resolve a lot of what remains.

The controls system is undoubtedly revolutionary, but I believe that diverging to this degree from the few existing praiseworthy PvE combat models while trying to get both PvP and PvE "right" will take a lot of careful tuning and frequently leaning in favor of the PvE player, if heroic-feeling combat is the goal. In all honesty, the difficulty in communicating and understanding its PvE mechanics from all perspectives (as a player with controls fighting a boss or elite, as a player trying to defend against an alpha strike, and so forth) are making me nervous about how heroic my possible stalwart and enforcer archetype characters will feel once targeted by a properly impressive number of NPCs and all of the controls available to them, including AoE controls.

The idea that some protection thresholds will be shared by several control types on a 'control channel' and thus are subject to faster overtopping, coupled with the potential for a large buildup of non-binary control effects like slows even before the thresholds are reached, sounds like a discouraging hassle for me as I try to melee a large spawn group without either 95% evasion or an opening nuke from beyond the NPCs' control range to reduce the number of mooks trying to stack controls on me. Maybe more detail on the non-binary effects will reassure me that they cannot reach frustrating levels, or a scenario will reveal that a satisfying amount of anti-control defense and resistance can be obtained in an augmented protection powerset without outside help or tertiaries.

I'd like to see the primary and secondary protection sets be viable against controls in large-scale PvE combat, without feeling that the stalwarts and enforcers are being pushed into protection tertiaries, a team, or devoting most reserves to breakfrees just to keep fighting when the NPCs' of an average faction start to stack their controls a few times. By now it's probably obvious that this aspect of the new design is near the top of my list to test during beta. I am firmly convinced that the planned control mechanics can work...I'm just not sure if the team is prepared to slant the input numbers sufficiently against the NPCs to keep it fun for me. CoH's system of controls was very slanted in favor of players of both controllers and tanks in PvE - except when a controller was facing an archvillain-ranked NPC.

[edit - the last paragraph's missing words have been found!]

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Am I close?

Mostly, no. You were close on one part. When talking about immobilize slowing the target. If you are hit by an immobilize and resist it, what ever is left of the immobilize strength will slow you down by that amount. Otherwise, you're way off.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

Movement Debuff affects all forms of Movement, even teleport range.

Scott Jackson wrote:

I will yield on the control questions for a while. Perhaps the eventual update will resolve a lot of what remains.

The controls system is undoubtedly revolutionary, but I believe that diverging to this degree from the few existing praiseworthy PvE combat models while trying to get both PvP and PvE "right" will take a lot of careful tuning and frequently leaning in favor of the PvE player, if heroic-feeling combat is the goal. In all honesty, the difficulty in communicating and understanding its PvE mechanics from all perspectives (as a player with controls fighting a boss or elite, as a player trying to defend against an alpha strike, and so forth) are making me nervous about how heroic my possible stalwart and enforcer archetype characters will feel once targeted by a properly impressive number of NPCs and all of the controls available to them, including AoE controls.

The idea that some protection thresholds will be shared by several control types on a 'control channel' and thus are subject to faster overtopping, coupled with the potential for a large buildup of non-binary control effects like slows even before the thresholds are reached, sounds like a discouraging hassle for me as I try to melee a large spawn group without either 95% evasion or an opening nuke from beyond the NPCs' control range to reduce the number of mooks trying to stack controls on me. Maybe more detail on the non-binary effects will reassure me that they cannot reach frustrating levels, or a scenario will reveal that a satisfying amount of anti-control defense and resistance can be obtained in an augmented protection powerset without outside help or tertiaries.

I'd like to see the primary and secondary protection sets be viable against controls in large-scale PvE combat, without feeling that the stalwarts and enforcers are being pushed into protection tertiaries, a team, or devoting most reserves to breakfrees just to keep fighting when the NPCs' of an average faction start to stack their controls a few times. By now it's probably obvious that this aspect of the new design is near the top of my list to test during beta. I am firmly convinced that the planned control mechanics can work...I'm just not sure if the team is prepared to slant the input numbers sufficiently against the NPCs to keep it fun for me. CoH's system of controls was very slanted in favor of players of both controllers and tanks in PvE - except when a controller was facing an archvillain-ranked NPC.

[edit - the last paragraph's missing words have been found!]

You shouldn't be overly concerned. In the old game, Tankers could withstand 15mag of any stacked control effect, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers were 12. That is 5 and 4 control attacks respectively. Then they had Resistance which reduced the duration of controls by a maximum of 50%.

The duration value of our controls are much, much shorter than they were for the old game. Our Protection Sets are actually a bit stronger than the old game's when it comes to the total number of possible stacked controls applicable before being fully controlled. This is because of the nature of how the control mechanics work with non-binary effects. That part will feel very different.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

Movement Debuff affects all forms of Movement, even teleport range.

I hope COT has plans to help with that such as a Hover type power or maybe even an augment? I know in COH, specifically in PVP, if I was hit with a -fly as a flying Plant/Thorn Dom, I could simply switch to Hover and I wouldn't suddenly drop 100 feet and be helpless and one hit away from death. Will there be buffs/augments (whatever terminology) to counter the effects of a movement debuff?

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

Movement Debuff affects all forms of Movement, even teleport range.

I hope COT has plans to help with that such as a Hover type power or maybe even an augment? I know in COH, specifically in PVP, if I was hit with a -fly as a flying Plant/Thorn Dom, I could simply switch to Hover and I wouldn't suddenly drop 100 feet and be helpless and one hit away from death. Will there be buffs/augments (whatever terminology) to counter the effects of a movement debuff?

No, travel powers are separate from combat powers. They do not receive Augments. Movement debuffs affect all forms of movementt. You can have Evasion which helps avoid attacks, Defense to Debuffs which can Defend against movement debuffs (of the same style), and you can have Resistwnce which can reduce the movement debuff if it is of the same type.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...travel powers are separate from combat powers. They do not receive Augments.

Does that mean we won't be able to improve any of our travel powers? Or will there be some other way to do that?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

Plot ammo is fine, but there's small nitpicky things I'm irrationally annoyed by.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Travel powers have their own

Travel powers have their own advancement system.


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The intent to provide tough

The intent to provide tough archetypes with more "control stacking allowance" is reassuring...assuming the numbers match the intent, I will be pleased to see it in action. That shifts my interest toward (hopefully, in the controls update) discovering the nature of the non-binary effect(s) attached to each 'control channel' and learning about the maximum and growth slope of the non-binary effects.

The travel powers / no augments news is interesting.
Does that mean the travel powers are "max speed" when selected, with no additional effort on the part of the player? [edit: Sniped! question already answered as a no]

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I believe it was once

I believe it was once mentioned that Movement Powers level up with the character. No details, just that they had their own form of progression.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

Plot ammo is fine, but there's small nitpicky things I'm irrationally annoyed by.

That's OK, we all have our own personal limits where it comes to our suspension of disbelief. For instance I've never given the issue of "ricocheting bullets" a second thought even though as you point out there's a decent chance they would fly off and do all sorts of unintended damage while on the other hand what you call "plot ammo" tends to annoy the ever-living crap out of me. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Travel powers have their own advancement system.

Sweet. Thanks. ????

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

Plot ammo is fine, but there's small nitpicky things I'm irrationally annoyed by.

Particularly irrationally in this case (the Wonder Woman scene) as the sparks showed there were clearly ricochets going on. However, there was nothing but trees around her to be hit by them (her allies were behind her), so the cameras can be forgiven for concentrating on the heroine being a badass, rather than the pains and sufferings of the surrounding plant-life, a matter of concern only to Greenpeace and Poison Ivy-- neither of whom were around to be concerned in World War I, when this scene was set. :) In most cases, though, you are correct that the consequences of ricochets on, say, the crowded streets of New York, are generally ignored, as are those of superhumans tossing the local traffic and landmarks at each other. :/

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Am I close?

Mostly, no. You were close on one part. When talking about immobilize slowing the target. If you are hit by an immobilize and resist it, what ever is left of the immobilize strength will slow you down by that amount. Otherwise, you're way off.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

Movement Debuff affects all forms of Movement, even teleport range.

Scott Jackson wrote:

I will yield on the control questions for a while. Perhaps the eventual update will resolve a lot of what remains.

The controls system is undoubtedly revolutionary, but I believe that diverging to this degree from the few existing praiseworthy PvE combat models while trying to get both PvP and PvE "right" will take a lot of careful tuning and frequently leaning in favor of the PvE player, if heroic-feeling combat is the goal. In all honesty, the difficulty in communicating and understanding its PvE mechanics from all perspectives (as a player with controls fighting a boss or elite, as a player trying to defend against an alpha strike, and so forth) are making me nervous about how heroic my possible stalwart and enforcer archetype characters will feel once targeted by a properly impressive number of NPCs and all of the controls available to them, including AoE controls.

The idea that some protection thresholds will be shared by several control types on a 'control channel' and thus are subject to faster overtopping, coupled with the potential for a large buildup of non-binary control effects like slows even before the thresholds are reached, sounds like a discouraging hassle for me as I try to melee a large spawn group without either 95% evasion or an opening nuke from beyond the NPCs' control range to reduce the number of mooks trying to stack controls on me. Maybe more detail on the non-binary effects will reassure me that they cannot reach frustrating levels, or a scenario will reveal that a satisfying amount of anti-control defense and resistance can be obtained in an augmented protection powerset without outside help or tertiaries.

I'd like to see the primary and secondary protection sets be viable against controls in large-scale PvE combat, without feeling that the stalwarts and enforcers are being pushed into protection tertiaries, a team, or devoting most reserves to breakfrees just to keep fighting when the NPCs' of an average faction start to stack their controls a few times. By now it's probably obvious that this aspect of the new design is near the top of my list to test during beta. I am firmly convinced that the planned control mechanics can work...I'm just not sure if the team is prepared to slant the input numbers sufficiently against the NPCs to keep it fun for me. CoH's system of controls was very slanted in favor of players of both controllers and tanks in PvE - except when a controller was facing an archvillain-ranked NPC.

[edit - the last paragraph's missing words have been found!]

You shouldn't be overly concerned. In the old game, Tankers could withstand 15mag of any stacked control effect, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers were 12. That is 5 and 4 control attacks respectively. Then they had Resistance which reduced the duration of controls by a maximum of 50%.

The duration value of our controls are much, much shorter than they were for the old game. Our Protection Sets are actually a bit stronger than the old game's when it comes to the total number of possible stacked controls applicable before being fully controlled. This is because of the nature of how the control mechanics work with non-binary effects. That part will feel very different.

A few questions/statements just to clarify the above bolded point a bit.

In CoH the magnitude of an NPC's control, just like the magnitude of control needed against it, varied based on rank. Controls used by a minion had lower magnitude than those used by a boss. If my recollection is correct; Minion controls were only mag1, Lieutenant controls were mag2, and Boss controls were mag3.

Thus 15mag mez protection would shield you against 5 Boss controls. Or up to *15* Minion controls (Certain mob groups could still overcome this. Teens level Tsoo for instance, where every single mob had energy melee, pretty regularly stunned tanks/kheldians right through their mez protection when in large groups).

Do CoT's mob's control strengths also vary based on rank? Are you taking rank into account when you say that CoT's protection sets actually provide stronger control?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Am I close?

Mostly, no. You were close on one part. When talking about immobilize slowing the target. If you are hit by an immobilize and resist it, what ever is left of the immobilize strength will slow you down by that amount. Otherwise, you're way off.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What im wondering is if there will be a -fly.

Movement Debuff affects all forms of Movement, even teleport range.

Scott Jackson wrote:

I will yield on the control questions for a while. Perhaps the eventual update will resolve a lot of what remains.

The controls system is undoubtedly revolutionary, but I believe that diverging to this degree from the few existing praiseworthy PvE combat models while trying to get both PvP and PvE "right" will take a lot of careful tuning and frequently leaning in favor of the PvE player, if heroic-feeling combat is the goal. In all honesty, the difficulty in communicating and understanding its PvE mechanics from all perspectives (as a player with controls fighting a boss or elite, as a player trying to defend against an alpha strike, and so forth) are making me nervous about how heroic my possible stalwart and enforcer archetype characters will feel once targeted by a properly impressive number of NPCs and all of the controls available to them, including AoE controls.

The idea that some protection thresholds will be shared by several control types on a 'control channel' and thus are subject to faster overtopping, coupled with the potential for a large buildup of non-binary control effects like slows even before the thresholds are reached, sounds like a discouraging hassle for me as I try to melee a large spawn group without either 95% evasion or an opening nuke from beyond the NPCs' control range to reduce the number of mooks trying to stack controls on me. Maybe more detail on the non-binary effects will reassure me that they cannot reach frustrating levels, or a scenario will reveal that a satisfying amount of anti-control defense and resistance can be obtained in an augmented protection powerset without outside help or tertiaries.

I'd like to see the primary and secondary protection sets be viable against controls in large-scale PvE combat, without feeling that the stalwarts and enforcers are being pushed into protection tertiaries, a team, or devoting most reserves to breakfrees just to keep fighting when the NPCs' of an average faction start to stack their controls a few times. By now it's probably obvious that this aspect of the new design is near the top of my list to test during beta. I am firmly convinced that the planned control mechanics can work...I'm just not sure if the team is prepared to slant the input numbers sufficiently against the NPCs to keep it fun for me. CoH's system of controls was very slanted in favor of players of both controllers and tanks in PvE - except when a controller was facing an archvillain-ranked NPC.

[edit - the last paragraph's missing words have been found!]

You shouldn't be overly concerned. In the old game, Tankers could withstand 15mag of any stacked control effect, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers were 12. That is 5 and 4 control attacks respectively. Then they had Resistance which reduced the duration of controls by a maximum of 50%.

The duration value of our controls are much, much shorter than they were for the old game. Our Protection Sets are actually a bit stronger than the old game's when it comes to the total number of possible stacked controls applicable before being fully controlled. This is because of the nature of how the control mechanics work with non-binary effects. That part will feel very different.

A few questions/statements just to clarify the above bolded point a bit.

In CoH the magnitude of an NPC's control, just like the magnitude of control needed against it, varied based on rank. Controls used by a minion had lower magnitude than those used by a boss. If my recollection is correct; Minion controls were only mag1, Lieutenant controls were mag2, and Boss controls were mag3.

Thus 15mag mez protection would shield you against 5 Boss controls. Or up to *15* Minion controls (Certain mob groups could still overcome this. Teens level Tsoo for instance, where every single mob had energy melee, pretty regularly stunned tanks/kheldians right through their mez protection when in large groups).

Do CoT's mob's control strengths also vary based on rank? Are you taking rank into account when you say that CoT's protection sets actually provide stronger control?

Yes, each rank has an It’s own Power Rating Modifier for determining Output. We can manse a Mook with a really strong power, it will not have many other powers of any as a result.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

To be fair, one can assume they've reloaded, except, we didn't see them do it on screen.

Though, that still wouldn't help Stabler's last episode on SVU! O.O Like 21 rounds with one gun!

Also, didn't WW show the rounds deflect? There just wasn't really anyone around for them to hit them.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

Know what I always hated about Wonder Woman and god knows how many other supers? When they're shot with bullets and they just fall or disappear into the ether.

That's not how moving objects work! They should be ricocheting into randoms or breaking apart into shrapnel that ricochets off into randoms.

Wow next you'll be complaining how the average handgun in Hollyweird movies can hold somewhere around 43,000 bullets without needing to be reloaded... ;)

To be fair, one can assume they've reloaded, except, we didn't see them do it on screen.

Though, that still wouldn't help Stabler's last episode on SVU! O.O Like 21 rounds with one gun!

Sometimes the scenes of a show in question are cut well enough to perhaps "vaguely hint" that people are reloading while we're not seeing them do it. But many times we see un-cut scenes where a guy will literally fire hundreds of rounds from something like a revolver without even the pretense that he could have ever reloaded. WTF! ;)

Brand X wrote:

Also, didn't WW show the rounds deflect? There just wasn't really anyone around for them to hit them.

Yeah many times when someone (i.e. Wonder Woman, Jedi with lightsabers, etc.) deflect shots aimed at them they ricochet off in directions where no one can get hurt (or at least no one who's innocent gets hurt). That's at least why I don't usually have a problem with it. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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will controllers be able to

will controllers be able to get a secondary version healing set like in COH where a defender had heal/power and a controller had a control/heal but the controllers version was a little weaker ?

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

will controllers be able to get a secondary version healing set like in COH where a defender had heal/power and a controller had a control/heal but the controllers version was a little weaker ?

You can check all the support powers that are going to be for launch here https://cityoftitans.com/content/support-sets

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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I just wanted to know if

I just wanted to know if controllers are able to have support powers I always played controller/healers in COH just haven't seen anything showing which sets go with what

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I just wanted to know if controllers are able to have support powers I always played controller/healers in COH just haven't seen anything showing which sets go with what

The info is out there. The previous link provided by @NoTears will tell you what the power sets are, and the following table will tell you which power sets are available for which classes.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I just wanted to know if controllers are able to have support powers I always played controller/healers in COH just haven't seen anything showing which sets go with what

The info is out there. The previous link provided by @NoTears will tell you what the power sets are, and the following table will tell you which power sets are available for which classes.

On this chart you'll see the terms in blue that roughly translate to the original CoH archetypes. If you want something closest to the orginal CoH Controller then you'll probably want to play a CoT Operator-Director.

I played several Controllers in CoH but I'm actually looking forward to the Operator-Executor in CoT (exchanging the support for ranged damage). I'm only upset they apparently won't be available at launch. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Thanks for the post I know

Thanks for the post I know most things are subject to change until release just wanted some clarification

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I just wanted to know if controllers are able to have support powers I always played controller/healers in COH just haven't seen anything showing which sets go with what

The info is out there. The previous link provided by @NoTears will tell you what the power sets are, and the following table will tell you which power sets are available for which classes.
IMAGE(https://cityoftitans.com/sites/default/files/CoTats_0.png)

On this chart you'll see the terms in blue that roughly translate to the original CoH archetypes. If you want something closest to the orginal CoH Controller then you'll probably want to play a CoT Operator-Director.

I played several Controllers in CoH but I'm actually looking forward to the Operator-Executor in CoT (exchanging the support for ranged damage). I'm only upset they apparently won't be available at launch. *shrugs*

I know this feeling. Some of the classes/archetypes/specs I'm most looking forward to are Taskmaster, Bodyguard and Gunner. None of which available at launch. =(

I'll just bide my time with Partisans, Sentinels and Directors (which I'll love anyhow).

Tannim222 wrote:

Yes, each rank has an It’s own Power Rating Modifier for determining Output. We can manse a Mook with a really strong power, it will not have many other powers of any as a result.

Thank you for the clarification. It's much appreciated.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

will controllers be able to get a secondary version healing set like in COH where a defender had heal/power and a controller had a control/heal but the controllers version was a little weaker ?

You can check all the support powers that are going to be for launch here https://cityoftitans.com/content/support-sets

More accurately: You can check out some of the support powers that will be in each support set.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I played several Controllers in CoH but I'm actually looking forward to the Operator-Executor in CoT (exchanging the support for ranged damage). I'm only upset they apparently won't be available at launch. *shrugs*

I know this feeling. Some of the classes/archetypes/specs I'm most looking forward to are Taskmaster, Bodyguard and Gunner. None of which available at launch. =(

I'll just bide my time with Partisans, Sentinels and Directors (which I'll love anyhow).

Empyrean really should be a Bastion with a control or support tertiary, but he'll be a Bulwark with a ranged tertiary till Bastion is released :/.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Hmm. Interesting. Baby Sister

Hmm. Interesting. Baby Sister was a Str/Invuln Tanker, so she would probably be a... Bulwark?

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Isn't that chart very

Isn't that chart very outdated at this point?


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Isn't that chart very outdated at this point?

It's been updated actually

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:
desviper wrote:

Isn't that chart very outdated at this point?

It's been updated actually

Yeah, it was updated at least as recently as the change where they switched the names of the Control and Pets archetypes. As far as I'm aware there hasn't been any discussion about any changes to the archetypes or their availability more recently than that.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.

This is fine, but please try to make control-effects still useful on bosses, don't get too close to immunities (like if the status effect lasts so briefly the player has no time to make any tactic). Avoid making all bosses close to immune to controls/stuns/etc.

The reason is that you shouldn't make a boss more difficult by taking away all the tactics from the player, tactics for which the player trained during the previous little fights. Powers he got because the character has grown by defeating the previous foes.

For example, this situation should be avoided imho:
1) The player levels and gets a punch capable of damaging and stunning.
2) The player is using it randomly to damage the first foe he gets.
3) The player now learned to use it first on the most damaging foes, because of the stun. (Funnier, also he feels smarter.)
4) The player encounters a boss, he must go back on using that power just for the damage because the boss is immune to all status effects. (Boring, he feels he should have taken a pure-damage power instead of a tactical one.)

I guess you see the problem in that story: he learned those tactics and powers for what? For the next easy minions where he needs little to no effort to overcome them? The minions you kill faster if you just damage them more?
The effects like stun, mind control, slowing etc. (but also the movement powers) should be created specifically with the bosses in mind, because those effects represent the tactical side of a power and you need an active mind against the stronger opponents, not the easy ones.

This is also the origin of the problem of several mmorpgs where a team needs to be formed with pure trinity (I know it's not your case, since CoH trinity wasn't mandatory most of the time):
- Of course if you make the boss "one-shot" everyone you will need the only man that cannot be one-shotted and therefore can be healed: the pure tank built specifically for that purpose. Hybrid-tanks or hybrid-whatever serve no purpose in this situation.
- Of course if you make the boss immune to all status effects you lose all possible tactics and need to out-damage and out-regen the boss = you need a pure damage dealer and a pure healer. Without them you have got no other possible tactic to win it.

Therefore it's very important that the majority of the tactics of the player remain intact against the boss, and that the player feels those tactics finally make a difference in winning or losing (since that wasn't the case with the previous minions, where he did it more for fun than to survive), to use them in combo with the tactics of the teammates (if a mate is controlling the mind of the boss, that's the moment we can get close and deliver more damage), not the contrary: "we can't use any tactic therefore we need to get an over-helming force somewhere" "I can't use any control effect, therefore I'll just spam the stronger damage I have or the stronger resistance or the stronger regen".

It's fine if the boss gets half the status effect duration. It's fine if a boss cannot be knocked down because he is a giant, but in that case he should be affected by everything else (mind-powers, stuns etc.).

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Doc T updated that chart on

Doc T updated that chart on 10/31/2017, so it's up-to-date. A useful resource, one just has to remember where it's hidden. *grin*

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Fireheart

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.

This is fine, but please try to make control-effects still useful on bosses, don't get too close to immunities (like if the status effect lasts so briefly the player has no time to make any tactic). Avoid making all bosses close to immune to controls/stuns/etc.

They have said that some bosses (maybe technically most but really hard to achieve for more than not) have an alternative win condition for locking them down with CC for a significant amount of time, coupled with the non-binary nature, makes me guess that CC will still be worth using on most (if not all) bosses.

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Controllers in CoH did damage

Controllers in CoH did damage with their controls. Why wouldn't Operators? Just lock the boss down and DoT him to death. Nobody is proposing to make control powers irrelevant. Tannim222 was only explaining that higher-ranked opponents had more resistance to controls.

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Yeah well looking at the

Yeah well looking at the control powers, they seem to have something you can do even if your hold doesn't work all that well, gravity and psionic control work by overlapping control effects to make those effects stronger, so while the first hold might not work, the third will most likely do the trick, and gravity has the added effect of making gravity wells which pull other enemies towards the target, making it hard for them to move around them. Power and Force can either drain the boss's power or slow it down respectfully, and the lower you can make the enemy's power or the slower you can make him means it's easier to control him. Illusion doesn't even control through holds for the most part and works by lowering your enemy's awareness of you and making your enemies fight each other, so even a control primary can still affect the boss.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Thundercal wrote:
Thundercal wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.

This is fine, but please try to make control-effects still useful on bosses, don't get too close to immunities (like if the status effect lasts so briefly the player has no time to make any tactic). Avoid making all bosses close to immune to controls/stuns/etc.

Nothing reduces duration. Defense reduces the value of a control vs the style, Resistance reduces it by the type.

The key here then is to make sure our base duration is tuned with appropriate recharge rate for cyling Controls.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nothing reduces duration. Defense reduces the value of a control vs the style, Resistance reduces it by the type.

Tannim222 wrote:

A control on a mook will last longer than on a boss.

Last longer = duration ?

If so, a boss (and probably also players in pvp) will get reduced duration of effects and I'd personally agree with that.
I'm ok with reduced duration on stronger opponents, I was just suggesting you to make the effects still last long enough to keep their tactical side. For example, a "stun" that lasts less than a second is an useless stun (since you can't damage the opponent nor escape the fight in such a short time). I could name you the recent games where I experienced this illogical choice, but I'd say pretty much all mmorpgs do this error: they completely remove the tactical side of the skills/powers just when you need it the most.

All but one: City of heroes was one of the rare cases where a full block worked on elites and bosses (I personally used Tesla Cage on open world bosses there, resulting in a gigantic electric effect, and it lasted long enough to save mates that were running away, because I increased accuracy and duration of it).

Tannim222 wrote:

The key here then is to make sure our base duration is tuned with appropriate recharge rate for cyling Controls.

I'm not sure how this should affect my suggestion to you. The recharge rate and cycling of controls should affect the possibility to keep controlling an opponent by repeating the same effect on it, which is not exactly the purpose of my previous post, I'm not worried about the overall strength of the "controllers-like-players" (I mostly play tanks even).
I just wanted to make sure that each single effect applied on opponents retain its tactical side by lasting long enough (minimum one full second), maybe you already thought about that and fine-tuned the values but I wanted to make sure you heard this at least once, since apparently the majority of other developers didn't think about that at all. If I wasn't clear, please let me know.

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Your point has been made

Your point has been made clear. It is a non-issue as duration isn’t ever reduced by any protection.


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Tannim222 wrote:

I'm looking forward to the second chance. I'm very interested in seeing how the defense/protection system works.

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After 3 days I've caught up

After 3 days I've caught up with this thread. I had some comments. But they were lost in the depth of this dive.

First and foremost I thank you for finally talking about these. I've been wondering for quite a while how this aspect of the game would work. And then we got a peak into other areas as well through some intense interrogation. It's a little interesting that hold duration "enhancements" are not being included. The control duration in COH was a notable difference from other games that made a control based skill set viable. If you look at most games their "controls" are soft or extremely short only lasting fractions of a second. Quite jarring when coming from COH. It'll be interesting to see how that compares. I understand the need to "nerf" holds compared to COH but hopefully it still feels similar and the aggressiveness of the nerf is only so you can buff it later.

I do hope you come up with a different name for "Planning" (crafting) I get the thematic link there but I'm really hoping you can come up with something better. It just doesn't work for me and I think you are going to run into a lot of confusion issues...well not you personally but QOL confusion as people plan builds and plan their evening and plan to plan. Plotting? Devising? ... Crafting? There's got to a better, less common word. my 2*

I do like the mock ups for the full triforce augment/refinement window. I hope it doesn't look weird when there is only one or two Refs on an Aug. Particularly early on when there aren't 3Ref Augs. And it could make the window look really busy. Think of all the powers and slots we had in COH. Now multiply by 12 triangles under many of those powers. That's a lot of small graphical elements. When you are looking a single power line it's not so bad but looking at all 30 odd powers a player might have.

I'm also very curious about sets and set bonuses. I can't recall if those were strictly for Augs or Refs or both. I think there is quite a bit of tomfoolery you could get into that would greatly affect the meta. Things like slotting 3 of a Ref set in on a single Aug could give a 10% bonus to each ref (as well as a set of 3 bonus) but if you slotted 4 Refs, one Ref of the set in each Aug slot you got a different set of 4 bonus. You could only gain one or the other, not both. You'd also sacrifice the set of 4 bonus for the other 3 Aug slots. So there could be a lot of depth to how you make a build. But I'm just spit balling. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

After 3 days I've caught up with this thread. I had some comments. But they were lost in the depth of this dive.

First and foremost I thank you for finally talking about these. I've been wondering for quite a while how this aspect of the game would work. And then we got a peak into other areas as well through some intense interrogation. It's a little interesting that hold duration "enhancements" are not being included. The control duration in COH was a notable difference from other games that made a control based skill set viable. If you look at most games their "controls" are soft or extremely short only lasting fractions of a second. Quite jarring when coming from COH. It'll be interesting to see how that compares. I understand the need to "nerf" holds compared to COH but hopefully it still feels similar and the aggressiveness of the nerf is only so you can buff it later.

There are quite a few differences in our controls compared to the old game. They were binary, had long durations that could be resisted to reduce the duration, and a magnitude threshold to be achieved in order to apply the effect.

Our controls are non-binary. The strength value of the control can be Defended and / or Resisted to reduce the non-binary effect. The durations are much shorter, but can’t be reduced either. L

Grimfox wrote:

I do hope you come up with a different name for "Planning" (crafting) I get the thematic link there but I'm really hoping you can come up with something better. It just doesn't work for me and I think you are going to run into a lot of confusion issues...well not you personally but QOL confusion as people plan builds and plan their evening and plan to plan. Plotting? Devising? ... Crafting? There's got to a better, less common word. my 2*

The name will make more sense when you know more about the whole system.

Grimfox wrote:

I do like the mock ups for the full triforce augment/refinement window. I hope it doesn't look weird when there is only one or two Refs on an Aug. Particularly early on when there aren't 3Ref Augs. And it could make the window look really busy. Think of all the powers and slots we had in COH. Now multiply by 12 triangles under many of those powers. That's a lot of small graphical elements. When you are looking a single power line it's not so bad but looking at all 30 odd powers a player might have.

An Aug with 1 Ref socket has the Ref socket below the Augment. 2 Ref Sockets are to the left and right of the Aug.

We thought of the issue of multiple powers and are considering collapsible “windows” so you can focus on the powers you want to look at.

Grimfox wrote:

I'm also very curious about sets and set bonuses. I can't recall if those were strictly for Augs or Refs or both. I think there is quite a bit of tomfoolery you could get into that would greatly affect the meta. Things like slotting 3 of a Ref set in on a single Aug could give a 10% bonus to each ref (as well as a set of 3 bonus) but if you slotted 4 Refs, one Ref of the set in each Aug slot you got a different set of 4 bonus. You could only gain one or the other, not both. You'd also sacrifice the set of 4 bonus for the other 3 Aug slots. So there could be a lot of depth to how you make a build. But I'm just spit balling. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

We haven’t designed Sets yet. But we have concepts for multiple possible configurations for Sets ranging from Simple Sets to Complex Sets (yes those are 2 if the categories I assigned for the concepts).


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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I'm also very curious about sets and set bonuses. I can't recall if those were strictly for Augs or Refs or both. I think there is quite a bit of tomfoolery you could get into that would greatly affect the meta. Things like slotting 3 of a Ref set in on a single Aug could give a 10% bonus to each ref (as well as a set of 3 bonus) but if you slotted 4 Refs, one Ref of the set in each Aug slot you got a different set of 4 bonus. You could only gain one or the other, not both. You'd also sacrifice the set of 4 bonus for the other 3 Aug slots. So there could be a lot of depth to how you make a build. But I'm just spit balling. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

This is something I hadn't considered so sound good. Though when you say "one or the other" you mean a single 3-ref bonus and not one per augment? If not then it becomes a no-brainer on which one to use unless the 4-ref one is that good, but then it becomes that much easier to acquire unless one of the pieces is that much rarer. But then... but then... uhm... I should probably stop there.

A bit more seriously though, I think having an option between a 3-ref set placed in a single aug and a 4-ref one placed in 4 different augs is a good choice one to have. The 4-ref should be a bit better since it has a "higher investment" in that you need to fully slot a power to get it while the 3-ref one can be used on any power. I am assuming that we won't be able to fully slot all of our powers so that gives us a tactical option in which powers we fully slot.

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Perhaps, instead of static

Perhaps, instead of static sets, there could be a sort of 'collect your own set' system, where different combinations of Refinements trigger different bonuses?

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There is closed and open Beta as well. Open Beta will be 4-5 months after the closed/backer Beta access. And with Facebook being the way it is, experience tells us it is better to point to the open when answering questions on there.

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

So I'd asked this a few days ago, and it got buried... figured I would try again :)

Couple questions:

1. With respect to the tentative July/August backer beta, how close are you to determining system requirements? I'm holding off on replacing my 10-year-old machine and, with a limited budget, want to be sure I can get into a new system that will run the game (ideally on better-than-minimum settings).

2. Related to the Aug/Ref update: Why is Extension an Augment, and Range a Refinement? They both strike me as being on the "affect how the power functions for the originator" side of the equation. I do get that Extension allows for more targets, but that doesn't seem like a thing that "affects the target of the power" in the same way that +damage, +control etc. do. What's the distinction that I'm missing?

Thanks!

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Cutter wrote:
Cutter wrote:

With respect to the tentative July/August backer beta, how close are you to determining system requirements? I'm holding off on replacing my 10-year-old machine and, with a limited budget, want to be sure I can get into a new system that will run the game (ideally on better-than-minimum settings).

I'll defer to others about your "Augment versus Refinement" question but as to your computer system requirements question it's probably safe to say that almost any new computer you'd buy today (even a relatively cheapish sub-$500 model) would probably play CoT better than nearly any 10 year old machine (assuming that 10 year machine wasn't a bleeding edge state-of-the-art system at the time).

Remember that CoT is based on UE4 which has the self proclaimed selling point of being able to work relatively well on "less capable" hardware. I would imagine that CoT should be able to adequately run on nearly any machine purchased in the last few years. Obviously the faster the CPU/GPU/disk technology in your machine the better but beyond that I doubt CoT's final "system requirements" are going to -require- people to have incredibly top-end machines. Think of it this way: If CoT was going to "require" $3,000+ cutting edge machines as a minimum then almost no one would end up playing it.

The simple rule of thumb is that if you want your computer to be "useful" for as long as possible you should try to buy the biggest/best hardware you can afford at any given time. A $2,000 computer system is always going to be more capable than a $500 system no matter -when- you're looking to buy that computer. On a limited budget I'd probably focus more on the GPU than anything else. Most standard CPUs and disk solutions are fairly good and don't require you to spend extreme amounts of money to get good performance from those parts. Basically you'll get the most "bang for your buck" by getting the fastest GPU you can afford. You'll also want as much RAM as you can cram on your machine but thankfully RAM has become the comparatively cheap part of any computer in the last few years.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Cutter wrote:
Cutter wrote:

2. Related to the Aug/Ref update: Why is Extension an Augment, and Range a Refinement? They both strike me as being on the "affect how the power functions for the originator" side of the equation. I do get that Extension allows for more targets, but that doesn't seem like a thing that "affects the target of the power" in the same way that +damage, +control etc. do. What's the distinction that I'm missing?

Thanks!

Augments are designed to affect the destination of the power. Area Extension directly affects the area of the destination.

The Range Refinement tells the originator how far it can reach to activate the power. It affects the originator.


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Cutter wrote:
Cutter wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

There is closed and open Beta as well. Open Beta will be 4-5 months after the closed/backer Beta access. And with Facebook being the way it is, experience tells us it is better to point to the open when answering questions on there.

So, we're discussing July-August for backer access, October-November for more open access.

Gameplay beta is more up in the air, as we need more parts of it integrated to give a proper estimate, so the range is far wider. We should be able to give a more firm date around the end of June than "end-of-2018/beginning-of-2019" it is now.

So I'd asked this a few days ago, and it got buried... figured I would try again :)

Couple questions:

1. With respect to the tentative July/August backer beta, how close are you to determining system requirements? I'm holding off on replacing my 10-year-old machine and, with a limited budget, want to be sure I can get into a new system that will run the game (ideally on better-than-minimum settings).

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

Technical Director

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Ah. I read "affects the

Ah. I read "affects the target of the power" in the update as "target" being specific to the mob(s). With "target" meaning "destination" that makes sense to include the burst/blast area. Thanks!

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Awesome, thanks Lothic for

Awesome, thanks Lothic for the explanation and Dr. T for the specs insight! That makes my budget happy :)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

How many other player characters (active powers & customized costumes) and NPCs are in your field of view?
Is anyone herding and dumpster diving in your field of view?
Have you tested this laptop in a Hamidon-esque setting?
How low or high do you have your graphics settings in the above scenarios?

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

How many other player characters (active powers & customized costumes) and NPCs are in your field of view?
Is anyone herding and dumpster diving in your field of view?
Have you tested this laptop in a Hamidon-esque setting?
How low or high do you have your graphics settings in the above scenarios?

In all fairness to Doctor Tyche given that the Devs haven't even started open beta testing yet I would guess that they have not done a large amount of stress testing yet. To be perfectly honest I would not expect a "5 year old, $500 laptop with 4GB RAM and no dedicated GPU" to be able to handle a full out Hamidon-esque scenario in CoT as well as a bleeding edge $3,000+ top-end workstation. It's always a matter of degrees.

As I said in my last post a bigger/better machine will always be better than a slower, less capable one. That's just simplistic common sense. I doubt Doctor Tyche was suggesting that the laptop he uses is the "perfectly ideal" machine to play CoT on. I think he was just making the point that such a machine can at least play the game under TYPICAL conditions.

Even you would have to admit that not everyone even bothered to play things like Hamidon raids in CoH on a regular basis. You have to consider the difference between "typical" play and "extreme 1% scenario" play - many players never bothered with the latter even if their machines could have handled it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

How many other player characters (active powers & customized costumes) and NPCs are in your field of view?
Is anyone herding and dumpster diving in your field of view?
Have you tested this laptop in a Hamidon-esque setting?
How low or high do you have your graphics settings in the above scenarios?

In all fairness to Doctor Tyche given that the Devs haven't even started open beta testing yet I would guess that they have not done a large amount of stress testing yet. To be perfectly honest I would not expect a "5 year old, $500 laptop with 4GB RAM and no dedicated GPU" to be able to handle a full out Hamidon-esque scenario in CoT as well as a bleeding edge $3,000+ top-end workstation. It's always a matter of degrees.

As I said in my last post a bigger/better machine will always be better than a slower, less capable one. That's just simplistic common sense. I doubt Doctor Tyche was suggesting that the laptop he uses is the "perfectly ideal" machine to play CoT on. I think he was just making the point that such a machine can at least play the game under TYPICAL conditions.

Even you would have to admit that not everyone even bothered to play things like Hamidon raids in CoH on a regular basis. You have to consider the difference between "typical" play and "extreme 1% scenario" play - many players never bothered with the latter even if their machines could have handled it.

Lothic is right, as a stopped clock tends to be twice a day. There is normal driving, and extreme driving, say on a track, or offroad. If you have a 2-wheel drive Honda that gets you back and forth to work just fine, don't try to take it offroad. Use a Jeep (or equivalent) for that. Know the limitations of your equipment; that is your responsibility, not the Devs'.

Shocking Blu

Lothic
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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Lothic is right, as a stopped clock tends to be twice a day.

Mordheim13... master of the back-handed compliment. ;)

P.S. Not sure what I said to deserve that kind of treatment here on this thread. I can take as much personal criticism as you'd like to dish out but at least keep it to the threads where that criticism might be legitimately deserved.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

Truth be told, one can go to www.newegg.com and put together their own machine that is more than capable of playing any game on today's market for $900 to $1500. Depending on the CPU and graphics card you by. A GTX 1070 is a solid card at a third the price of the 1080 and just as capable. Laptops, even "gaming ones" really aren't suited for heavy graphic games as they generate way too much heat. Heat is the bane of a laptop. One might want to look into Newegg and see what you can do there before investing in a laptop to game with.

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Ghost-Spectre wrote:
Ghost-Spectre wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

Truth be told, one can go to www.newegg.com and put together their own machine that is more than capable of playing any game on today's market for $900 to $1500. Depending on the CPU and graphics card you by. A GTX 1070 is a solid card at a third the price of the 1080 and just as capable. Laptops, even "gaming ones" really aren't suited for heavy graphic games as they generate way too much heat. Heat is the bane of a laptop. One might want to look into Newegg and see what you can do there before investing in a laptop to game with.

This limit of laptops is precisely why I use one. Helps to establish a floor.

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Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Ghost-Spectre wrote:
Ghost-Spectre wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

Truth be told, one can go to www.newegg.com and put together their own machine that is more than capable of playing any game on today's market for $900 to $1500. Depending on the CPU and graphics card you by. A GTX 1070 is a solid card at a third the price of the 1080 and just as capable. Laptops, even "gaming ones" really aren't suited for heavy graphic games as they generate way too much heat. Heat is the bane of a laptop. One might want to look into Newegg and see what you can do there before investing in a laptop to game with.

Yep this is all good info. TBH, I would never willingly -want- to play a MMO long term on a laptop precisely because of the heat issue.

The last several desktops I've built for myself (spanning the last 8-10 years) have all had self-contained liquid cooling and I've never had any problems with that. Those types of cooling systems can be bought very cheaply now-a-days ($100 or less). Basically I'll probably never buy another machine intended for gaming without that kind of setup.

To be clear I'm not a laptop-hater; I own one now. I'm just saying all things being equal I never use them to play games like this.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

This limit of laptops is precisely why I use one. Helps to establish a floor.

That makes perfect sense to me. From a testing point of view you want to try to anticipate the "common denominator" that your users will be using.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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A friend just did some

A friend just did some bargain hunting and got a high end gaming lap top that retails for well over 1k for $413.
Not even a refurbish, but brand new. And it was with a promotion to have a 250g SSD installed instead of the standard drive.

You never know what you may find for a decent price.


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Back to the subject of the

Back to the subject of the thread, thinking back on my CoH days, the CoH equivalent of using refinements was so satisfying for some reason. I think it was a mixture of the color scheme, the sound applying the augments made, along with the effects of placing it in and seeing the effects of it on that power. I'm really looking forward to all of this and I hope enough emphasis and time is put into those small pieces of the experience of actually using them. It's a lot of the little things coming together to form the all-around experience, not just the effects of the augment/refinement on the power. But I guess that could be said of any particular part of the game.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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Mordheim13 wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

I test the builds using a now 5 year old, $500 laptop. If you have something better than 4GB of ram, Intel integrated graphics and a dual core CPU, you should be fine.

How many other player characters (active powers & customized costumes) and NPCs are in your field of view?
Is anyone herding and dumpster diving in your field of view?
Have you tested this laptop in a Hamidon-esque setting?
How low or high do you have your graphics settings in the above scenarios?

In all fairness to Doctor Tyche given that the Devs haven't even started open beta testing yet I would guess that they have not done a large amount of stress testing yet. To be perfectly honest I would not expect a "5 year old, $500 laptop with 4GB RAM and no dedicated GPU" to be able to handle a full out Hamidon-esque scenario in CoT as well as a bleeding edge $3,000+ top-end workstation. It's always a matter of degrees.

As I said in my last post a bigger/better machine will always be better than a slower, less capable one. That's just simplistic common sense. I doubt Doctor Tyche was suggesting that the laptop he uses is the "perfectly ideal" machine to play CoT on. I think he was just making the point that such a machine can at least play the game under TYPICAL conditions.

Even you would have to admit that not everyone even bothered to play things like Hamidon raids in CoH on a regular basis. You have to consider the difference between "typical" play and "extreme 1% scenario" play - many players never bothered with the latter even if their machines could have handled it.

Lothic is right, as a stopped clock tends to be twice a day. There is normal driving, and extreme driving, say on a track, or offroad. If you have a 2-wheel drive Honda that gets you back and forth to work just fine, don't try to take it offroad. Use a Jeep (or equivalent) for that. Know the limitations of your equipment; that is your responsibility, not the Devs'.

To add to what Lothic said.

The devs has probably not done much in terms of optimization, at least outside that of hitting their projected minimum requirements. Once they start to get serious with that Doc's laptop may become much more "capable" than it is now.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A friend just did some bargain hunting and got a high end gaming lap top that retails for well over 1k for $413.
Not even a refurbish, but brand new. And it was with a promotion to have a 250g SSD installed instead of the standard drive.

You never know what you may find for a decent price.

Here's hoping! I figure a 3 month headstart should be enough time for deals to start popping up, especially as the GPU arms race continues and, hopefully, the mining craze dies down a bit. That's really the biggest stumbling block right now.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Mordheim13 wrote:

Lothic is right, as a stopped clock tends to be twice a day.

Mordheim13... master of the back-handed compliment. ;)

P.S. Not sure what I said to deserve that kind of treatment here on this thread. I can take as much personal criticism as you'd like to dish out but at least keep it to the threads where that criticism might be legitimately deserved.

Mordheim13, as you are someone who quotes the Bible in his or her posts, I would have expected better from you.

Not that I agree with Lothic about most things, especially her somewhat abrasive choice of words at times. But never has it served my purposes or the good of these forums to point out anyone's failings publicly; whether they are deserved or not. ... until now, I guess. Heh.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

The last several desktops I've built for myself (spanning the last 8-10 years) have all had self-contained liquid cooling and I've never had any problems with that. Those types of cooling systems can be bought very cheaply now-a-days ($100 or less). Basically I'll probably never buy another machine intended for gaming without that kind of setup.

I, too, have built my own machines over the last decade. I originally used a thermaltake liquid cooled system. It required refresh the coolant. However, with my new machine, I'm using a closed system with a superior condensation system that stops any moister loss. The one thing I want to do is get 2 GTX 1080 SLI cards and bump my memory up to 64gig. Moreover, I'll probably upgrade my fans to high output fans (noising I know) but that will further keep my box cooler. :)

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Folks, don't judge the Avatar

Folks, don't judge the Avatar, Lothic is a fellow.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Folks, don't judge the Avatar, Lothic is a fellow.

Damn... and here I was thinking you were blue flamey heart thingy typing away at a keyboard somewhere. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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