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Not at all. I'm saying that enough people are crowing about it during play (historically) and that apparently THEY consider it a problem. I'm fine with it. However the idea that I have to suffer any less damage because I can make an alteration on my powers is patently unfair. Are you willing to do less damage if you can turn off the Slow effect in your Cold powers?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
How often is the slow effect something that I see as being bad, though? The whole idea of that set was that it did damage, and slowed the target.
Turning off an aspect of a power that you find UNdesirable for some reason would be more like asking to ADD a slow effect on-demand to a power that just deals straight damage that it is turning off something that you wanted in the first place.
I am trading something else for it - negatively impacting on my team.
I am not removing an undesirable part of a power. I like KB. I use KB. I am removing KB for the team so based on your thinking I should in fact be getting more damage.
---
Another look at the whole KB/damage/objects discussions.
When a foe is KB/KU into an object it takes additional damage based on the force of the KB (using CoH as an example a Mag2 KB would do less damage than a Mag10 KB when they hit the wall 2 meters behind them), or may just a single number based on the Tier of the power. Either or at this stage.
However if I toggle off KB/KU into KD only I am now losing the 'collision' damage and extra utility so instead I should get a +Dam boost - maybe linked to the Mag of the KB, maybe not.
The game could even (and I have NO IDEA about any kind of server load/etc) detect if the KB would have activated (again assuming Knock* is based on a % chance) and then if the foe would have been Knock* at all. Using Explosive Blast on Lord Recluse would not have knocked him anywhere so there hould be no extra damage from 'collision' or 'lack of KB +Dam'
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
But the value is there, or we wouldn't be asking for the switch. And I'm sorry if I seemed to be asking for the balancing to be done with damage. We could instead reduce the amount of knockback, or increase recharge or animation time, or raise the amount of the other effects on powers that could've been taken instead of the one with knockback.
OK, I won't try. The question has been asked and not answered enough on this thread that I can make a pretty good guess that there aren't any other such effects. OTOH, KB is apparently the only one that we're asking for a switch for. It would seem to be a unique case.
This would imply that the unswitchable knockback was not properly balanced in CoX. As I never played the game, I don't know if I would consider that to be the case or not. But in my last post I did mention the assumption that it was, which should at least imply the possibility that it was not.
A possible misunderstanding here: I'm not advocating less damage when you use the switch, I'm advocating less damage (or other balancing mechanism) because you have the switch. Actually, omit "possible", because if you weren't thinking I meant "less damage when you use the switch", then I definitely misunderstood your point in that last section.
I'd consider that a bit much, actually. Unless the boosts are even smaller than I expect, this approach would be very coarse. I'm thinking it would be better to bake the switch into all non-random knockback effects (and maybe those, too) and balance that.
More accurately, you're getting the switch so you have the option to not negatively impact your team. That's not a price you're paying, it's what you're getting.
If you want more damage when you use the switch, that increases the overall utility of the effect even more, and so it will have to be balanced on that basis. In that case, maybe a boost (adding the switch and not as much damage as a damage boost would give you when use the switch) is about right, and the extra damage can be tweaked until it is right.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
"This would imply that the unswitchable knockback was not properly balanced in CoX. As I never played the game, I don't know if I would consider that to be the case or not. But in my last post I did mention the assumption that it was, which should at least imply the possibility that it was not."
You're arguing against something that very few people had a problem with in a game that you never even PLAYED? *headdesk*
Make you a deal...play something before you start railing for or against it. It makes your arguments seem more valid...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I think that's it right there. Very few people had a problem with. I think most people ran with it...got a KBer on the team who just sends the KB flying about, it's going to be one of those teams! Let's do this!
Then you those few who are very loud.
Much like with what people complained about with Stalkers. :p "They're just hit and run to rehide!" When what was I doing with my stalker since day one of CoV? Sneak in group, release Assassin Strike, and then finished off the group :p
"Stalkers llack AOE!" Didn't seem to notice with all the fallen enemies.
Now, did I think they needed improved damage? YES! Seriously, ST Burst Specialist meant nothing in CoH. :p The new mechanic for Stalkers they added in to use Assassin Strike out of combat not only kept the ST Burst, but also got them higher up on the ST DPS. No, it didn't make them the best when one compared it to that Fire Armor Brute who had RAGE and a damage aura to rank up their ST damage, but it went quite a long way (imo).
Now, never agreed with the idea of "remove the aoe attack in the melee powerset to make room for Assassin Strike" but that was more because I thought "Why remove one of the better animations in the set?!" :p
Need to be careful with KB and falling damage. Neverwinter example translated to CoH speak. Early days of their AE equivalent line up a load of ogre bosses or EBs on a very narrow bridge above a very deep chasm, use your repel equivalent, dead ogres, oodles of XP, rinse/repeat, exploit rapidly fixed by capping the XP you could earn in a single AE mish.
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Shouldn't they cap that anyway? I mean seriously...with player-generated content isn't capping the xp gained the only way to prevent abuse?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Arguably yes, although it's a really bad way of dealing with it, as it just means you go in, play for 30 seconds, leave, repeat. The bans they handed out were more effective.
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Often the toughest part of dealing with the Human Element is the Humans. Making something exploit-proof is likely so resource-consuming as to not be worth it.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I think gaining experience from defeating enemies (random ones on a map) is an old notion.. I remember in Champions Online post launch this was the only way to reach level 40 so players found the enemies who gave out the most XP and farmed them for leveling.
I don't care how its done but it's ALWAYS lame to me (<-- one persons opinion). I don't gain a lot of valuable experience by doing half of a job and not completing it nor by doing any action repetitively.
Curve the XP model so we gain XP the first time but each subsequent time we do something its only 10% of the original XP amount and only give the XP when completing a mission.. since most XP is just for leveling this will force the devs to have ZERO XP gaps and it basically forces players to experience more of the dev created content.
- -
Sorry for the tangent. Still in favor of Knockback being a collision based damage boost that is gained as a character attribute and works on a chance roll (and only on the final hit of any combo power)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
For preventing a falling damage exploit, couldn't you just cap the max damage you can take from falling? Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 did that, once you had fallen far enough to get maximum falling damage, it didn't matter how much further you fell, you'd have 20d6 worth of damage waiting for you on the ground.
Makes sense, too. Once you hit terminal velocity, you're not going to fall any faster.
You can do that, but then you get into big things having more energy (it's a linear function of mass, velocity is the same barring air resistance) than small things when they hit the ground, so taking more damage. I'd simply not count falling damage as done by the player so they only get a fraction of the XP (but a larger fraction than they did most of the time) if a similar division is applied to the way CoH did it.
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ALL PERSONNEL PLEASE MAKE YOUR WAY BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC.
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The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Actually, there's two ways to deal with the Falling Damage exploit. One is to make it so that Falling Damage never reduces below 1 HP remaining (like City of Heroes did), which is only partially effective in terms of Minotaur's exploit example. The other way is to take a page out of the Confuse XP Awards textbook and set things up such that damage dealt by Falling does not award XP ... so in Minotaur's exploit example the XP Award from doing that is "nerfed" by the fact that most of the damage dealt is not coming from the Player, it's technically coming from the environment.
Reminds me of the time I was fighting a pile of mobs on top of a very tall building in Foggy Dark Astoria. Knocked one of them off over the edge of the building and never found out where he splattered to down at street level ...
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Alas, I can't seem to find any active servers for CoX. So like my knowledge of what powers and effects were like in CoX, my knowledge of what people had or didn't have a problem with in CoX is largely limited to what I read in these forums, for example from post #272:
But I have experience with knockback in CO, so I am familiar with the core issue of the effect adversely affecting my allies. So I know I'd prefer the switch, however the devs decide to balance it.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I have no problems with KB being part of powers. My main character was a WarShade, and I played a lot of the time in Nova form, so KB was always something I needed to be aware of. It didn't bother me, I just needed to learn how to use them to avoid annoying my team. (In all honesty, I mostly ran with Repeat Offenders, so I didn't have to worry too much, it wasn't something most of the people I played with worried about.
Personally, I'd say to leave KB in, exactly the way COH had it, BUT, if you're asking to have that KB removed from a power for some reason, be it tactical advantage, or just keeping your teammates happy, you're asking to remove an aspect of the power that you find, at that time, for whatever reason, to be undesirable. Removing an undesirable aspect of a power needs to be balanced somehow. -Damage is the easiest way, using more END, taking longer to recharge or being less accurate are all other possible balances to this.
And removing KB "for the team" is definitely removing what you consider, at that time anyway, to be undesirable, otherwise, you'd leave the KB in.
Hmmm...wouldn't KB being the same as it was in CoH be like keeping with the whole spiritual successor ;p
So ... you want to [b]penalize[/b] Knockback for being Team Unfriendly. Got it.
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But we are not talking about 'removing' KB, just changing its Vector.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Or, when you quote me, you could leave the part of my statement in where I said that I'm fine with leaving KB exactly the way it was in COH.
All I'm saying is that if you want the ability to turn some aspect of a power that you find undesirable off on-demand, for whatever reason it is that you're turning it off, there's going to be some balance to that
Hmmmm..... I think you might be right there ;)
At the risk of insulting your intelligence ... Knockback in City of Heroes was Team Unfriendly.
CLUE SENT.
Awaiting reply.
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Never found it team unfriendly. It was at most a detriment to the Herd and Burn mentality of some players.
Exactly.. Not everyone is a herd and burn player.
If you're single target Melee focused you usually do a bit better with enemies spread out.
For me personally I liked being able to single out an enemy to use confuse on who isn't in a "herd" about to die. I really want there to be a baseline understanding by all players that there are many metagames inside any MMO.
Some people will simply not play the way you do, and whenever possible they should be given the option to play the way they like to. If you like herd and burn, then you'll likely find powers and teammates that agree. But assuming that the way YOU play is the definitive way everyone or even MOST PEOPLE will play is a detriment to the conversation.
Some options should be allowed and some shouldn't but the issue at stake is balance, NOT teaming/preferred play style. If being able to toggle knock back is a detriment to character balance then by all means dis-allow it.. but it sets a precedent for how ALL power effects work. If you can turn off knock back you also need to allow for people to turn of other effects.. and that's the rabbit hole I want to avoid.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Of this last paragraph, I agree with this first statement.
Or adjust it so balance is restored, if possible.
This last part I disagree with. Consistency is nice, but I think the devs should feel free to decide whether or not there should be exceptions to general rules. A case could even be made for not allowing some knockback powers (AoE "explosion" type powers, for instance) to be toggled while allowing it for others. As for allowing people to turn off other power effects, which ones? As far as I've read here, knockback is the only one any people have said they would like to be able to turn off. Or did I miss one being mentioned?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Oh, yeah! I'd like to be able to toggle off Damage. Because everyone hates when I do more damage than them.
Right?
No, you're right. As far as I know, Knock-back is the only offender. And there are many situations where knock-back is desirable, but the nay-sayers never mention that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
City of Heroes [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancements]Enhancements[/url] ... by type (which effectively corresponds to all types of Power Effects):
Accuracy
Damage
Endurance Discount
Recharge
Range
Fly
Jump
Run
Endurance Modification
Heal
Defense Buff
Defense DeBuff
Resist Damage
Confuse
Fear
Hold
Immobilize
Knockback
Stun
Sleep
Slow
Taunt
ToHit Buff
ToHit DeBuff
Let's go down the list of which of these effects it would be useful to be able to suppress on demand, and which it is most desirable to keep as always on because they're always wanted:
Accuracy: always wanted
Damage: always wanted
Endurance Discount: always wanted
Recharge: always wanted
Range: always wanted
Fly: usually wanted, although self suppression could be nice for maneuvering in tight spaces
Jump: usually wanted, although self suppression could be nice for maneuvering in tight spaces
Run: usually wanted, although self suppression could be nice for maneuvering in tight spaces
Endurance Modification: always wanted
Heal: always wanted
Defense Buff: always wanted
Defense DeBuff: always wanted
Resist Damage: always wanted
Confuse: always wanted
Fear: always wanted
Hold: always wanted
Immobilize: always wanted
Knockback: [b]--> conditionally useful depending on current tactical situation <--[/b]
Stun: always wanted
Sleep: always wanted
Slow: always wanted
Taunt: always wanted
ToHit Buff: always wanted
ToHit DeBuff: always wanted
So Knockback is the big standout for [i]Sometimes You Want It, Sometimes You Don't[/i] ... with Movement Effects (Fly, Jump, Run) riding on the coattails due to the fact that sometimes you actually [i]Want To Move Slowly[/i] so as to be able to maneuver precisely in close quarters (ie. the classic "don't Speed Boost me!" request). But even then, Fly, Jump and Run are Movement Powers, not Attack Powers, meaning that there is (usually) less of a problem with forgoing their Effects by not using those Powers ... a condition and circumstance that did NOT hold true with respect to Knockback in Attack Powers (particularly for Knockback heavy powersets).
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I never seemed to have a problem, even when I was on PUGs, and I mostly played my WarShade with a side of PeaceBringer, both primarily in Nova form.
I get that some people didn't like KB, but it really wasn't that big of a deal to most people that I ever played with.
If you're advocating to remove KB entirely, I don't really have an objection to that. But if you want to be able to turn KB off on-demand, I would expect there to be some sort of price to pay for that ability.
I never found KB to be "team unfriendly". I once had a team leader ask me to be careful with it. Otherwise, I used it with timing and aplomb (says myself).
Confuse was not always wanted. Until people understood how it did not cost you xp over time. Similarly Defense Debuff, when folks thought they needed Heals more. Fear was not always wanted. Along the way tweaks were made to how Fear worked, just as they were made to KB (the KD enhancements).
But even those I rarely ever saw any of these being issues in game. For me I saw they were forum issues. Perhaps that's because I played on Infinity. Land of taxibots.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
Slow might not be wanted if there's a Brute standing right next to you trying to fill his bar.
/facepalm
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Dark_Nova_Bolt]Dark Nova Bolt[/url] ... no Knockback
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Dark_Nova_Blast]Dark Nova Blast[/url] ... 10% chance for Knockback (1.87 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Dark_Nova_Emanation]Dark Nova Emanation[/url] ... no Knockback
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Dark_Nova_Detonation]Dark Nova Detonation[/url] ... 50% chance for Knockback (3.74 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Bright_Nova_Bolt]Bright Nova Bolt[/url] ... no Knockback
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Bright_Nova_Blast]Bright Nova Blast[/url] ... 10% chance for Knockback (1.87 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Bright_Nova_Scatter]Bright Nova Scatter[/url] ... no Knockback
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Inherent.Inherent.Bright_Nova_Detonation]Bright Nova Detonation[/url] ... 50% chance for Knockback (3.74 Mag)
Those powers were not [i]consistent[/i] sources of Knockback, and even when they did do some Knockback, it wasn't all that much. Compare that to:
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Storm_Summoning.Gale]Gale[/url] ... 100% chance for Knockback (10.4 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Force_Field.Force_Bolt]Force Bolt[/url] ... 100% chance for Knockback (18.7 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Blaster_Ranged.Energy_Blast.Power_Push]Power Push[/url] ... 100% chance for Knockback (13.3 Mag)
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Blaster_Support.Energy_Manipulation.Power_Thrust]Power Thrust[/url] ... 100% chance for Knockback (16.6 Mag)
Look ... just because [b]--> YOU <--[/b] didn't have a problem with it on your Kheldians doesn't mean no one ELSE had problems with it on any of their characters in any of the Teams that they joined with their characters (who didn't have to be Kheldians). What's surprising is that you think that your experience with [i]intermittent Knockback of modest magnitudes[/i] somehow makes you an authority on how "well" Knockback worked for every Team in the hands of every Player with respect to every Power in the game.
At this point, only an absolute blithering idiot completely impervious to facts, evidence, reason and/or [i]basic literacy[/i] would believe, or insinuate, that my position is to remove Knockback entirely.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
My brother did complain about that a couple of times. But, he just dealt with it and went on smashing Arachnos (and Family and many other groups) thugs. Much like his Dual Blades/ Will Power scrapper did with the knockback that happened on our regular Wednesday night team. Everything died too quickly for it to make all that much difference to his Regen buff. The one thing he really hated was Death by Caltrops. He got fly at 50 just because of that.
If you look at what I suggested a while back, that is what I was thinking of as a compromise. In that the "pulling of your blow" would change according to the type of knockback that it was being done on
I suggested earlier on in the thread something like this:.
The reason why I was thinking along these lines, is that it is just a compromise between the two groups. And it makes some logical sense as well...
Hell, to an extent, you could almost put together a complete argument that if it was a "chance to knockback" that you should be able to "rig the roll" to *force* it to be 100% knockback.
Surprised that some people haven't suggested that.... then again, I only just thought of it myself.
Now I know you're not dissin' Force Bolt there. Because that's crazy talk.
Force Bolt was the best power in the game. At least for me. It had the power and distance of that knock down to an artform near the end. Bouncing enemies into walls, flinging them back into a damage patch, knocking a runner straight at the Tanker. Making a dangerous melee boss go away when it went up close for hugs. Awesome utility power. And it didn't even need anything more than an Accuracy enhancement to be good,
It also had the ability to launch a Hellion out of visible range, if I remember right. Level differences are funny.
But toggling off knockback would make Force Bolt useless. It's thing was consistent, useful knockback on demand. I might go entire mission without using it, or I might fight a foe that needed to be bounced around as much as possible since it had a really nasty melee attack and kept going for the squshies. But whne I needed to move an enemy, it was available. Always..
I want Force Bolt back in City of Titans In all its "Bad guy in the corner pocket" glory of clean purposeful knockback. Really, my power wishlist starts with Fly then Force Bolt.
Frankly, the the chance of knockback powers that I could see issue with, especially the AoE ones. Either knock or don't. Random knockback doesn't really help anyone. Purposeful knockback is a powerful tool in the right hands. But people were blind to that because it was used poorly by people. Just like some Tankers clearly didn't understand positioning to keep AoEs off the teammates. Now THAT got teams killed.
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The solution to "Knockback wasn't always team friendly" is not a toggle to turn it off. It's to MAKE knockback team friendly in CoT. That's what this thread really should be about, not judge how team unfriendly it is in CoT before the game even has an Alpha version.
So then ... you're agreeing with me ... at long last ... that the best solution is to allow the Intelligent Player to intelligently control the Knockback on their Powers that have it, from moment to moment?
What seems to have escaped your analysis is that even with Knockback On Demand [i]you'd still be able to do this JUST FINE[/i]. In fact it would be [i]completely within your purview and power[/i] to decide for yourself that on YOUR characters you will NEVER suppress Knockback EVER under ANY circumstances! If you want to play your character(s) that way, no one can stop you (and more to the point, it is beyond their power to stop you from doing so). Why you think you would be prevented from doing so [i]by the game mechanics[/i] is just unfathomable (not to mention laughable). Remember, the Knockback on Demand "switch" would only affect YOUR character's Powers ... not the Team's ... and they couldn't "decide" for you how you're going to use your character's Powers [i]without your consent[/i].
The whole point of the toggle is to let the Player [i]decide for themselves[/i] (hint hint) how THEY want to play the game, with a bias towards Knockback being on by default ... or Knockback being clamped to be Knockdown by default. This really isn't all that different from having an option in the game settings to be able to invert the Y axis on mouse movement (which has been a standard feature in games like this since Castle Falkenstein and Doom in the 90s).
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I think something got lost in translation here. Slow on the Brute? Is there any chance he'll be wanting to move, if you're next to him and he's getting ready to attack you? "Fill his bar" does mean he's getting ready to do an attack, and "Brute" does mean melee, yes? Or maybe slow did something to cause his bar to fill faster? Or are you referring to a slow on the character next to the brute, who would be trying to get out of range or something like that but can't because of the slow?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
(scans back through the thread for Gangrel's posts, finds post # 177) I must have read that before, I was sure there was someone else who had an example of a power with knockback that might reasonably be an exception to a general "make all knockback switchable" rule, but I couldn't find it. So I went with my own (theoretical) example.
How much was knockback in CoX, typically? Would knocking back for only half the distance as Gangrel suggested be likely to still leave the bad guys in the reach of the damage dealers that are trying to finish him off? If so, this may be a good compromise here. But the knockbacks in CO tend to be large, especially when looking at single target attacks.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Nothing got lost in the translation. It was the receiver that had the problem.
Brute Fury got built as a result of being attacked (among other things). That means that any Slow effects (specifically the Recharge Debuff) being applied to Foe NPCs attacking the Brute would effectively "carry over" such that the Brute's ability to accrue Fury would also be affected (ie. slowed) because the Foe NPCs would take longer to cycle their attacks on the Brute. Thus, Brutes could build (and maintain) Fury "better" when the Foe NPCs beating on them [i]were not Slowed[/i] ... which is why there was no Ice Armor powerset (with Chilling Embrace and its Slow effect) for Brutes, because any kind of Recharge Debuffing operated in an adversarial fashion to being able to build up, and maintain, Fury.
Practical upshot ... Recharge Debuffing via Slow was just about as "helpful" to Brutes as giving Tankers a Placate.
Makee sensee yet?
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Anywhere from a pitiful low chance (think 10%) for a 0.67 Mag all the way up to a 100% chance for a 18.7 Mag. That's about a 28 to 1 spread on magnitudes and a 10 to 1 spread on the chances for Knockback to occur. Mind you, that's UNBUFFED numbers. With Buffing, you could get pretty darn high since Knockback Enhancement was controlled by [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification#Schedule_D_Enhancements_.2860.25.2C_30.25.2C_15.25.29_are:]Schedule D[/url] meaning you could easily get up to +165%-ish before hitting the Enhancement Dysfunction "cliff" ... meaning at 18.7 Mag could get pushed up to around 49.5 Mag (or so). So the potential spread between 49.5 and 0.67 is very close to being 74 or 75 to 1. That's a LOT of variability to try and manage [i]without injecting Human Intelligence[/i] into the equation [b]on demand[/b].
Nice try.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
We might be agreeing on the root cause, but I'll never agree to the toggle solution as it carries way too much unfortunate baggage to be a viable solution. It's a red herring at best, preventing discussion on solutions that would solve the perceived issue.
Actually, I'd take Force Bolt as the shining example. This is what all knockback powers should aspire to be. A scalpel. No power causing knockback should have it added because it looks cool, even though it does look cool to punch somone across the street, but for a specific purpose. A manipulation set for a squishy character should want to have a powerful knockback tool. Maybe an Energy Torrent style attack to sweep 40 degrees of enemies in front of you away. In the same direction. Huricane is also a good example. PBAoE Knockback/Repel and massive -ToHit. No enemy got the melee range with a Storm Summoner unless they could resist both of those effects.
Poor knockback powers would be Gale, which has a chance to knock in an AoE effect, and is probably the source of a lot of the grief knockback got in CoH and Explosve Arrow because it didn't fit its thematic counterpart powerset at all. All location based affect and an AoE knock power? A single target knock would have been sweet, though.
So, I'm still opposed to the the toggle, since it feels like more trouble than its worth. But smart power design making knockback both useful and desirable? I'm all for that. I mean a Tank set should knock the enemy across the room, but a Manipulation or Buff/Debuff set probably should have powers like that if it fits the theme. You wouldn't pick Power Thrust on a Tanker, but a Blaster could get some mileage from it.
That said, "chance of knockback" powers were a bad idea from the start. I'd like City of Titans to not do that. Positioning tools can be very powerful... if they're reliable.
I still want some kind of megaton punch to knock an enemy clear across the street though. (Or clear the top of the statue in Phoenix Plaza.) Coming back to level 1s with a level 50 character that could do a ton of knockback never got old. All it really needed was that cliche sparkle animation in the sky when they disappear upwards.
The exact implementation will be tricky. I'd like to deal damage for knocking enemies far, especially if the collide with something. Now there's a silly idea. A knocked enemy is a projectile that deals damage to other enemies it hits. Bad guy bowling! Plus it'd give a tank a reason to have a megaton punch. To hit a runner with another guy. Don't tell me that wouldn't be awesome to do.
And just like that, you lose All Credibility because you don't know what you're talking about [i]even when a link to the documentation for the Power has [b]already been provided[/b][/i] just a few posts upthread. Here, I'll even give it to you again:
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Storm_Summoning.Gale]Gale[/url]
That's it. You're done.
If you're going to argue, it helps to use FACTS rather than [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBD5yyT-s0]FICTION[/url].
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
There you go being disrespectful and rude again. I'm not "done". This is my pet issue. I'll keep at it until the game launches if I have to. And even after it launches if it does come with the stupid toggle. But I'm fairly confident it won't.
Knockback should be AWESOME. It should be desirable, something everyone would jump for joy at seeing in a team. Not something to be hidden away like it's shameful.
Oh, by the way, from the Gale you linked: [b]"Accuracy 0.9"[/b]. Used as a newbie since that's one of the initial two in Storm Summoning and that becomes [b]67.5% chance of knockback[/b]. You have to take the reduced accuracy into account, too when considering the probability of knockback. Accuracy enhancements could help, but as a newbie, you didn't HAVE those. So, yeah, gale was inconsistent and useless at low level, and got completely outclassed by Hurricane and the like at high level. Poor power design, why would anyone want Gale unless they had some set gimmick in mind?
But this thread is going in circles, the toggle thing has completely taken over despite not actually adressing anything. Let's focus on making knockback awesome, and not on deeming it undesiable from the get-go.
So, no. I'm not done. But this thread might have outlived its purpose. It has, however, given me an idea that could do with a bit of fleshing out for another thread.
Yeah, that's what I meant to say, I was just being inarticulate and dumb as usual.
Knockback isn't the only effect that might inconvenience a teammate, just the biggest one. Ice powers can slow Fury. The Fear in Caltrops (meant to be a situational power, not an entire themed set) can make enemies gradually diffuse out of a taunt aura or incoming area attacks. The point about knockback being the outlier in terms of being unpopular on teams still stands, though.
In my opinion, Knockback was unpopular enough in CoH, and weak enough compared to Fear, Slow, or Disorient, that buffing its usefulness with an on-demand metapower that suppresses it or turns it into Knockdown would not make it overpowered.
If Knockback being suppressible on the fly really is overpowered, perhaps a balancing tradeoff could be no tradeoff (of secondary effects). In other words, instead of choosing your secondary effect (KB or KD) to fit the tactical situation, you can only suppress it completely or not suppress it, and you pay for your versatility by doing without a secondary effect. I really [i]don't[/i] think Knockback was so much more useful than all the other effects that it has to be paid for by sometimes having it inconvenience the team.
The problem is, for dome people, that any amount of lateral motion caused by Knockback will be too much. Just like the perception of Stamina having to be a mandatory power. If the Endurance bar so much as twitched, the character didn't have enough +recovery. So, the player [b]had[/b] to get Stamina on every single character they ever made or thought of making.
My brother, sometimes, complained about the use of Holds (and to a lesser extent Immobs and Stuns) by the team when he played his Brute. Foes being held do not help generate the right kind of Fury for a Brute to make use of.
So, the only secondary effects that I can see that no one made any complaints about being on the foes were -Def, -Acc, -regen, -Rec, -HP, and -End.
I've seen people complain about -End, actually. Same deal with -Recharge. Drained or slowed enemies attack less, meaning less Fury for Brutes.
I'm just gonna say this here because it is a microcosm of what I'm seeing elsewhere.
No one should get up in arms defending an idea or suggestion to the point of rudeness or being a keyboard warrior. I know.. the nature of a forum is to have extremes on either side of any idea. We all have passionate ideas for the game we want to play and I lot the brainstorming process that's happening. But as with any brainstorm, neither the loudest nor the most repeated option are the defacto best solution and only silence other important voices
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Given all the shouting down of dissent hereabouts I will repeat....
CoX had significant kb in relatively few sets, and often in only a few non critical powers. That is a GOOD game design. It already allowed a player to decide through powerset or power selection if they wished to play a kb centric toon.
It allowed those who disliked it to opt out of those powers/sets, and in the cases of extreme dislike, to avoid teaming with that toon.
This was not a judgment of the player it was a defacto acknowledgment of mutually exclusive play styles that would not have meshed well regardless.
Adding a keybind or toggle takes MY choice for MY toon and hands it over to the current team for review. And to be even more frank it would give an implied game designer stamp of approval for a single play style that a great many found boring.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I think this is a great point. For those players who agree to disagree with another play style yet work together, I am sure those more demanding battles are the ones that really stick in memory. Not the routine steamrollering with zero hitches. Like a novel.
If the complications made a mission impossible that would be show stopper. I'd switch toons. But if it meant a couple of team wipes while learning to cope with different team dynamics (or before adjusting difficulty level) then I simply admit I needed to learn, not that "[b]--> YOU <--[/b] are wrong."
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
Just for reference, here's the post I was asking about, # 302:
So, the problem Pengy described isn't a Brute receiving the slow effect, it's a friendly Brute next to the enemy who got hit with the slow effect. (How does the enemy getting slowed get to be the antecedent for the pronoun "you"? No matter.) Perhaps it was not a very common occurrence, or perhaps the folks playing Brutes just toughed it out better than those who had enemies scattered out of their Zones of Death. Maybe both.
Redlynne, you did a very good job of translation for those who haven't played CoX, I think. Except for the first and last paragraphs.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
It should be noted that EVERY member of EVERY team is under 'review'. If we have the same sort of info available that we had on CoX towards the end then everyone can see the Powers and Set Bonuses of everyone on their team. I ran a FF Defender without the small bubbles because I got tired of having to refresh them (back when they were 1 shot, 1 teammate). I got kicked from teams once in a while for that. I shrugged and moved on.
If there is a KB toggle and I'm solo then who cares. If I'm on a team and they don't mind me using it then all is well. If they oppose me using it and I refuse to shut it off they can kick me. Just like they can kick ANYONE else for ANY stupid reason they can come up with.
"Hur...you're a sub-optimal build sorry" *boot*
It's happened before, it'll happen again. If you don't like the toggle, fine. We all have our own opinions. But PLEASE don't keep saying that your primary worry is being unfairly treated because of it. Players will get unfairly treated by some people no matter what.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
My stance on KB is as follows:
1. KB is good for ranged characters IF they can consistently keep hard hitting single target foes at bay at least some of the time. The problem is that a lot of games make boss level enemies immune to KB while minions are rarely such danger.
2. KB is good for ranged characters if they have AoE KB powers to push back large groups of minions.
3. KB is fun for melee when it's in a finishing move. Basically in a power that you use to knock the lights out of foes. I feel melee KB attacks should be very powerful but on long recharge. Most attacks should focus on keeping the foe at melee range and not push them back.
4. KB sucks in teams if you have any need to actual control foes. Especially when people insist on using it in tough battles and when it's coupled otherwise completely useless powers (gust anyone?).
That being said I'd like to see less complete lockdown type control powers like hold and more knockdown/knockup, sleep, and roots (immobilizes that break with damage). Even fear was sort of okay since you still could attack back a bit.
I've taken some several days to read through the thread up to date. My own personal opinion is to avoid having to add switches to powers that players need to learn to use for a power to behave one way or another. There are many reasons I'd like to avoid this which aren't worth the time and effort for me to detail, so I'll leave it down to this:
The nature of knock back causing issues should not be a burden of the player to absolve by the developers marrying extra tools to possibly resolve "problematic" powers being used in "problemacitc" ways.
Instead it is upon us as the developers to implement tools (systems) which alleviate burdens from players with "problematic" powers as much as possible.
The way I see it with regards to knock back the potential problems (or at least the most common referred to problems) mostly occur in teaming situations.
Melee users having their targets knocked away causing them to chase down targets.
Area effect users - particularly patch effects (be it controls, debuffs, damage, or a combination thereof) having targets knocked out of the patch.
In these instances providing a means where any melee user has an aura which turns melee range targets affected by knock back into being knocked down and patch effects doing the same.
There may be other scenarios, but these seem to be the most frequent cited.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
"It's happened before, it'll happen again. If you don't like the toggle, fine. We all have our own opinions. But PLEASE don't keep saying that your primary worry is being unfairly treated because of it. Players will get unfairly treated by some people no matter what."
Couldn't care less if I'm treated "fairly". I much preferred to lead my own teams and projects anyway. I AM saying don't bake in a tool encouraging folks to homogenize builds and play styles. Outliers may be suboptimal in your book, they are exotic and interesting in mine. The road less traveled always will be but that does not mean we should close down that road.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
That's... a pretty clever idea. Making damage/debuff patches and melee characters "sticky" so knockback is less effective on or near them. I like that. Much more elegant than having a toggle switch.
Amusingly, this could allow for big melee finishers, too. Take a power like KO Blow. Normally if the enemy is still alive, it just launches them upwards a bit, but if the enemy is defeated and therefor no longer under the effect of the sticky aura... *POW!* Straight across the room.
I assume that such a -KB distance aura would be possible to bypass if a melee powerset gets a dedicated knockback power as a positioning tool? "Ignore knockback sticky-ness" or whatever the technical term could be.
I do hope that such a sticky aura will allow the powers that DO do knockback to be extra-special awesome. I really, really want to be able to knock an Archvillain-like enemy over on CoT. You really, really, really had to stack knockback in the exact same server tick to do that in CoH. I've seen it happen... twice, but I'd love to be able to do it more.
Actually, could you please split knockback distance from knockback magnitude in CoT? I wanted to slot Force Bolt for Knockback in CoH to be able to knock anything that didn't have purple triangles around, but that would make it launch normal minions clean across the room. Which, while funny, would have sent them out of range for even ranged attacks. So... not that useful.
What makes a game fun to play?
No seriously ... think about this. What makes a game FUN to play?
I actually believe the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Garriott]Richard Garriott[/url] was onto something when he posited that what makes for fun gameplay is "a lot of little [i]interesting[/i] decisions that add up to being more than just those decisions" ... which is something that necessarily implies and requires the involvement and interaction of Human Intelligence and Decision Making. This can be represented by things as simple as "where do I want to go Fishing?" and build its way up to things such as "what combinations of effects do I want to use?" in order to achieve an objective (up to and including entire Build Strategies and Attack Chains).
Decisions, and the options that make those decisions meaningful choices, are what engaging and interesting gameplay rest upon. Gameplay that requires a steady stream of decisions to be made, including even such simple choices as "do I stay here or do I move?" are what engages the Player and makes the game interesting. However, there is a "sweet spot" that emerges between being able to make no decisions whatsoever (because the computer does everything for you, ala Zero Player Games such as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Quest]Progress Quest[/url]) ... all the way to the other end of the spectrum where you effectively BURY the Player in so many options and decisions that the Player overloads and rebels, quitting the game in order to escape the responsibility of needing to make so many decisions that it essentially becomes a "chore" to be able to play at all. The trick though is FINDING where that "sweet spot" is, and even more importantly, how "wide" that sweet spot is (and whether it's a "valley" or a "saddle point" in terms of how easy it is to stay there).
You say that your personal preference is to not add switches to Powers that Players need to learn in order for their Powers to behave in variable ways. Bear in mind that by rejecting the "power" of Player Intelligence in that way, you are closing off and preventing an entire dimension of potentially Intelligent Gameplay and Player Control in the interest of making sure that the Players [i]don't have to make decisions[/i] about how THEY want to Play THEIR personal characters.
Wow. Just ... wow.
That is so much worse than what I was suggesting.
I was talking about a Self Only modifier that only affected the Powers of the character the Player was controlling. That means that "I" get to decide what Power Effects "MY" character produces, but don't have any control/influence (game mechanically) over anyone else's Powers ... nor can anyone else veto or override "MY" decisions in this without my consent [i]and willing cooperation[/i]. This empowers the Individual Player and can lead to Interesting Decisions that can create the conditions for Intelligent Gameplay.
You're talking about granting a way to suppress the effects on Powers of [b]OTHER PLAYERS[/b] (which could potentially include Foe NPCs). That means that "I" get to decide what other Players are "allowed" to do in the vicinity of "MY" character (or Power Effect). That's way more tyrannical (in the social sense) than anything I was proposing, because now "I" now get Veto Authority over "Your" Power Effects. That's a [b]SERIOUS No-No[/b], in my not so humble opinion ... because it empowers the Team [i]against[/i] the Individual Player and has the potential to result not only in Dumb Decisions (because they're being made "for you" by others) but also create the conditions for Team Griefing of Individual Players (thanks to the "veto" enforcement aspect).
"This? This is wrong tool. Never use this."
- [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zathras]Zathras[/url]
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Well, of course you would, McNum ... but then, you're an-
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Redlynne, you're perfectly entitled to you opinion. It should be noted what I've proposed isn't entirely unique. If what ou suggest is that any power which can potentially interfere with how it affects another person's power is somehow tyrannical, then we have a game in which no effect can coincide with another effect for fear of causing some form of "tyranny" of control.
From the course of discussion the issue is the possibility that knock back can be detrimental in certain situations. If that is true the solution thus far places the burden upon the player to decide if they want to "play nice" and make a switch in power effect, or risk being viewed as an annoyance for either not learning to use knock back "correctly" or I should say, learn proper knock back ettiquette, in this case being switch it to knock down. My opinion is that as devs we shouldn't place such a burden on upon players if a power effect causes game play issues, instead it should be upon the devs to develop solutions which attempts to alleviate the burden from players as much as possible.
If a there is such a switch and a player refuses to use it for whatever reason, it is now their knock back power which imposes how other players are effected.
This isn't about dumbing down the game to take choices away from players. There are plenty of examples where effects one player can apply an alter, impede, or impact in some form the effect of another player's power effect in many games and in many instances this hasn't been viewed as a problem in the past, and if done well, shouldn't be viewed as an issue in CoT.
What I've provided as a suggestion allows for players to use their powers without the requirement of additional coding for implementing switches which may or may not need to be hidden if players don't have knock back powers and don't want clutter, or tucked away in some menu option, or having to add dialogue boxes for "hey did you know the K button switches knock back to knock down and back again"" or something equally silly. In this way a knock back power can still be used to knock targets to desired locations, and in the situations where knock back has been deemed to be problematic, as mentioned in this very thread: melee players having to chase targets, or targets getting knocked out of patches, then the power automatically turns to knock down.
Player switches being a necessity for possible harassement issues like being unwillfully teleported away, turning off power visuals / sounds due to various inducements including migraines, vertigo, seizures, etc... absolutely should exist. I won't argue in these situations. However my suggestion only stems from the arguement that knock back may be of an issue in specific situations as previously stated.
If these situations aren't an issue, then there shouldn't be a need to require power alterations by effect on the fly. If the desire stems from "i don't like knock back and only want knock down" This logic can lead to other situations where we have multiple switches being applied to multiple powers to cater to every form of "enjoyable" way to use a power outside of what we want our boost system to provide for player decision for altering their powers. That's in part what the boost system should be providing.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
TBH I'm rapidly approaching the point of 'deal with it the way CoH did' only in more limited scope. Make a few sets (like Energy Blast and any sort of Wind Powers) known for dealing superior KB. Other Powers deal KD or they don't knock at all. Players will have to deal with it just like they always have.
If we're going to get this tangled up over every detail we'll never get anything done.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
+1 ;)
This is why I labelled this as an qualitive issue. If it is to be an issue its one I would rather not place the burden of change upon the player if at all possible. If it isn't an issue, there is no need for a change to be made at all.
Fortunately, we have processes to follow so we do get things done, and if there isn't a process to follow, one is sure to be made so the work can get done.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
And what you're refusing to acknowledge is that those "certain situations" are not uniformly determinate in a way that nicely/neatly fits a IF-THEN-ELSE tree of preprogrammed determinations. As a ranged character, sometimes I want to enforce full knockback, and sometimes I don't. As a melee character, sometimes I want to enforce full knockback, and sometimes I don't. I don't want the computer making that decision for me (because I'm either too stupid or too busy to figure it out for myself). I, as a Player, want to be able to look at what is happening and make the decision for myself ... and I want everyone else to be trusted enough to make intelligent decisions themselves in exactly the same way (even if they don't or can't). The only way to do that in a manner that is responsive, adaptive and constructive is to put the decision in the hands (literally) of the Players ... simply because there are too many possible permutations of situations and immediate imperatives for a One Size Fits All solution to be actually satisfying.
Really, this comes down to a very simple question.
Do you believe your Players are smart or not?
If you don't ... do it your way, where Players don't get to make their own choices, because the Dev Team has made them for you (so you can't).
If you do believe your Players are smart ... you might want to consider doing it my way.
Your way takes Player Skill out of the gameplay equation.
My way increases the importance of Player Skill in the gameplay equation.
Your move.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
CoH was filled with powers that contradicted others.
Those Immobilize powers that stopped KD/KU/KB! Immobilize/Holds that stopped all the herding! Those fear powers that stopped herding! The phase enemy powers.
As for chance of KB. I think the only thing that needs to be learned from CoH on that, is if an AOE KB happens, it KBs everyone! Grrr to that...1 out 5 got KBed.
And who can forget those people ruining the sleep attacks?!
Devs have to make decisions all the time which limit player choices in one aspect or another. Sometimes there is a wide selection of choices, sometimes there are a small selection of choices, sometimes there is an illusion of choice, and sometimes there isn't a choice. You way is only an opinion it doesn't make it right or wrong. I only offered an opinion speaking specifically if an effect was a root cause of a game play issue and how that may be alleviated without placing burden upon the player, that is all.
That's funny because virtually the same argument has been made back in CoH days about players needing to use knock back wisely. It is player choice whether to use terrain, angle of attack, a combination of powers, and so on to achieve a desired effect. Some players did just this, while others didn't.
Some players are smart and / or courteous and learned how to use powers to the best benefit for all involved. Others aren't so quick on the draw or didn't care. Having a switch does not change this.
If this is a certain effect is the cause for game play issues in the examples of knock back being used unwisely, then it should be the burden of the developers to find ways of resolving the issue without placing the burden upon players if at all possible.
Either way, the concerns over knock back have been noted. We've already taken a look over our first pass of powers making sure knock back is being used in thematic powers, which are all subject to change ten thoudand or more times before they're ever seen (if ever) by players, after which there are certain to be changes again before and after various phases of testing. The issue of whether knock back may or may not be the cause of game play issues has been noted.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Real nice. Totally makes you look like the mature one here.
Software design 101 here: The answer must be "No." And the answer HAS to be "No".
A player can be smart, but players as a group? ...no. And that's why redundant designs and hand-holding exists in games. If you start thinking all your players are smart, you begin to make assumptions about things you don't need to do or can omit. Sometimes that's harmless, and sometimes you end up walking straight into a very preventable design flaw. So, never assume the player is smart enough to figure things that aren't stated explicitly out. It's good design practice. (But do try to have an off-switch for onscreen hints for the "experts".)
Well, I think that's all we can ask for. I'll be happy to help knock some fools around when testing starts, but that's a good while away still. Good to hear you're on top of things.
For the record I really like this solution.
Redlynne effectively asked the question "Do we trust the players or not" and in this area, my tens of thousands of hours of play indicate that the answer is no, a lot of PuGing indicates that only a small fraction of users are capable of using KB properly. This already existed in CoH with some of the immobilises anyway.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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"Some players are smart and / or courteous and learned how to use powers to the best benefit for all involved. Others aren't so quick on the draw or didn't care. Having a switch does not change this."
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up...
As for the melee KB/KD aura thing, not to put too fine a point on it but how will you explain that thematically? Not that I'm not willing to consider the idea but just saying...
And before anyone cries GRIEFING on the melee guys if this actually happens...there will always be griefers. Report them, take a screenie and move on. We'll have to trust the devs to keep on top of things.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Because it was a hurdle placed at inconsistent heights. Sometimes it was easy to use Knockback "wisely" and sometimes it wasn't easy, to the point of being counterproductive in terms of Opportunity Costs to use Knockback "wisely" in all situations. That made "wise" use of Knockback relatively difficult compared to other options.
All I'm trying to do is "lower the bar" to being ABLE to use Knockback "wisely" as you put it. The fact that I've gotten so much pushback over the effort to do so is simply gobsmacking. It's as if maintaining "foolish" use of Knockback is a priority that must be maintained at all costs, to the point of ENSURING that "foolish" use of Knockback persists as "a thing" in City of Titans.
The thing that amazes me (to the point of being dumbfounded) is the belief that NOT having a switch somehow resolves the point of this issue, and is therefore the superior answer/solution because NOT having a switch will somehow PREVENT Players from being stupid and/or discourteous when using their Powers ... which is ludicrous on its face. Having a switch isn't [i]intended[/i] to be a panacea cure all for player stupidity and poor decision making, simply because there's no possible way that it could be. However, having a switch available could make A LOT of edge cases more amenable to a smart and/or courteous style of gameplay, simply because the Player [b]is allowed[/b] to be smart and/or courteous in how they use their Powers [i]if they wish to be and go to the extra effort of doing so[/i].
But you're right. My pleas are falling of deaf ears. Gameplay must be dumbed down to the maximum extent possible because ... well ... just because. To say that such a turn of development is "disappointing" is to miss the forest for the trees. Good luck with that.
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Actually, this "anti-knockback aura" (I'll call it the "shirt-grabber") could well work [i]better[/i] than a switch. For example, say I'm doing my usual blasting from the fringes of the fight, and I see something trying to run away from the patch. Now I can hit it with the grenade and knock it [i]into[/i] the patch, without risking blowing the things already in the patch out of it! Much more user-friendly, anti-idiot, and anti-griefing.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
The anti-knockback aura thing needs a snazzy name, but yeah. I hadn't even considered the whole "use AoE knockback to knock one guy who got out of a patch back in" angle. Heck if CoH had that, then Explosive Arrow and Trick Arrows would have been best buddies.
What I particularly like about the aura idea is that it allows for some crazy knockback powers to be made without having to worry too much about people using the irresponsibly. Or being a jerk on purpose with it. Honestly, I can't really see a drawback to it, it's simple, it works, and it reduces mental overhead for the player. In most cases where knockback would be trouble, it simply doesn't work. But when an enemy is out of control and needs to be moved, then it does.
I don't really see this as dumbing down... more streamlining. It comes back to the whole choice thing. With the sticky aura, the best choice is made for you in most cases. In fighting games it's called an "Option Select" where the same input can have two different effects depending on the situation. It's a widely popular technique in high level play, inputting a defensive and offensive command at the same time. Enemy attacks, you block. Enemy hesitates, you throw them. Incredibly annoying to play against, but very handy. And this is when no choice is better than choice by the way. If there is one obviously superior choice, then the computer should assume that's what you want to do.
So, yeah, I'm pretty happy with how this looks. Of course, no proposed ideas survive contact with the game itself until tested, but on paper, it has promise. There's sure to be edge cases, of course, there always is.
And I'm glad the team doesn't trust players. They shouldn't. We're a crafty bunch who'll misuse and abuse anything they give us. Play the game in ways that they never imagined. Trusting that the players will play as designed... leads to Enhancement Diversification style nerfs. "No one would be stupid enough to not slot for Endurance Reduction and Recharge, right?" Well, turned out that nearly all of us were. MOAR DAMAGE! And so... the nerfbat came swooping down, because they ended up in a horrible situation of either leave the game broken with few options to expand or enrage the playerbase, but create options for the future.
The lesson here is... DON'T TRUST THE PLAYERS! Listen to them, acknowledge their pleas and concerns, but don't trust them. Ever. And I say that as a prospective player.
You seem to have a very hard time with the concept that someone can understand your argument, yet still disagree with you.
A couple points, with regard to the powers you listed. With as much as the AoEs were used on large spawns, that still added up to a LOT of KB with roughly half of any spawn getting tossed in any given attack.
Then, as counterpoints, you chose powers that were expressly intended to primarily cause KB, not have it as a side effect of a primary attack power.
As to thinking that I'm an authority of how KB affected all teams... you seem to have the same overreach in your thinking. Just because it could negatively impact you, it doesn't follow that it's necessarily a bad thing.
And if you read the statement, I did say "If" and while I admittedly didn't make it clear, the "you" was meant to be more inclusive than just Redlynne.
Reading a couple of the subsequent comments from the Dev team, I have to agree with the stance they're taking here, and the taunt aura turning KB>KD for affected MObs is a fantastic idea.
100% agreed. This sort of effect is a brilliant potential solution.
Actually, I chose the counterpoints so as to demonstrate the "spread" between the different ends of the spectrum and clearly show that any kinds of "half measures" wouldn't fit either extreme all that well. That's all.
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Well, that's definitely fair.
I have to say, I think Tannim222's idea with the aggro auras applying a KB>KD effect is a very workable solution here.
I have to consider Tannim222's solution is a valid one. I put the onus on the melee guy's powerset way back in post # 167 to convert KB to KD. Bit before it's time though. Maybe it was even a subconscious inspiration.
Not saying these are the only solutions of course. So long as there's no code there's no limits to the imagination :)
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
I have to admit, I do like Tannims suggestion, in that if a mob is under "another effect" (for better or worse words), it gains a resistance to knockback *itself* and is instead knocked down/up (change as appropriate).
I can see cases where you would rather be able to "blow them away" could still be handy, but then again, with any solution, you can always come up with situations where it *doesn't* work, so this is a case of finding compromises.
So whilst, Redlynnes been advocating the "player controlled" version of controlling your knockback, and I have suggested alterations to the idea of it (as a form of compromise), I can see this fitting into my category as well.. its a compromise between the two opposing groups (those who want knockback to be in an always on state, and those who want to be able to "tone it down" as and when needed).
While I must admit some admiration for Tannim's 'sticky' AoE and Taunt auras it does seem a bit like an 'invent new laws of physics' solution. Redlynne's 'Knock-back On-Demand' solution seems the simplest to me. It doesn't require creating new mechanics for powers. The Devs can avoid the Knock-back 'Problem' by setting individual power defaults to Knock-down or Knock-up or Knock-down as it seems appropriate, and savvy players can Choose to invert this setting as needed.
There seems to be a fear that Teams will refuse to play with players that 'abuse' Knock-back. In response, I want to ask, "How is that different than CoH?" Teams reacted badly to much more trivial issues than using Knock-back. And, really, that seems like a self-limiting situation. Teams that frivolously boot players will not get to benefit from those players. After all, the whole POINT of CoH and, hopefully, CoT is that one is not [u]required[/u] to team.
I mean, this scenario seems to be saying that teams which boot players because of [u]unrealized]/u] problems are, somehow desirable and 'good' teams. To me, that sounds like advocating discrimination.
But all of that aside, I Am a Tanker. I benefit from my taunt-aura. I enjoy leaping into the middle of a full spawn of enemies and having them all focus on me. AND, if I feel like a need a 2-second pause, then I want to be Able to knock those enemies away from me. I want to be Able to wind up and knock that one guy out of the park, so I can focus on cleaning up his friends. I want to be Able to boot enemies off the building or over the wall, Just Because I FEEL Like It!
This proposal, insofar as it affects Tanker auras, is not one that I can support. Not unless you give me a key-press to turn it Off, whenever I choose.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'd say there wasn't a KB problem for those who had it. Just those who couldn't deal with it, as it interrupted their perfect mission setup. Which is not a casual player thing and it goes back to a lot of players wanting the game to be for the casual gamers, and the casual gamers aren't the ones worried about KB.
Actually, your way removes player skill as well. It just adds the decision of whether you want to even attempt to learn/use the skill required for beneficial Knockback effectively.
Does that mean that we need a toggle switch to turn damage off on demand? I got pretty irritated at times when I'd sleep the group so we could focus on the EB and almost immediately the group was awakened by an AoE.
Basically, this. There is a reason they put "Caution: the contents of this cup may be hot" on the side of a McDonald's coffee cup. Having worked in the fast food industry (at McDonald's no less), I have run into more than my fair share of anti-geniuses.
An Anti-Genius is someone who has to work at being stupid.
Issue with breaking Sleep by Aoe can be stopped by saying "Please dont use AoE or splash attacks - only use ST" and as EVERY character has single target attacks they could do so.
Saying "Please dont KB enemies into other mobs, out of patches, etc" to my Nrg Ranger character means I cant do anything as (referring to Energy Blast from COH as an example [http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Blaster_Ranged.Energy_Blast]) all my attacks do KB.
As a reminder a Mag 0.67 KB meant KD and anything above this mag was KB. The lowest Mag Nrg attack was 1.162 (the Tier1 and Sniper attacks) meaning ALL my attacks do KB. Admittedly 1.162 isnt a large amount of KB but it can be enough to move foes out of patches.
The smallest AoE mag was Explosive Blast an AoE with a 3.323 mag, easily enough to push mobs away.
Like Fireheart said what if my Tank WANTS to have enemies knocked away? Like Im in over my head and dying? My teammate who has KB attacks cant KB them away giving me some breathing room. While yes KD is breathing room its not as much as KB - unless you decide to add Stun to KD.
Also imaging this scenario - a kill all map has a lot of bridges/chasms/narrow walkways/etc. My Fire Ranger can shoot as much as he wants. So can my Sonic and Ice and Dark Rangers. But my Nrg Ranger cant because he will knock foes off and then we have to go a hunting for them. Grief. Or "Ohh sorry guys I cant help with this mission. Ill have to door sit." "Why dont you hover blast?". "Thematically my character doesnt use hover I'm a 'natural' hero /or/ I chose Super Speed as my free travel power".
Or what about my Robot Mastermind? "Dont use KB or AoE KB".... Ummm sorry I dont have THAT level of control over my pets. They will attack with whatever powers they have - cant stop them using AoE or KB.
Also what if the party doesnt have a Tank (if Tannim's idea was used I would imagine that being a Stalwart only power and not a Brawler)?
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I believe it was AION (could be other games as well) had a tank taunt that pulled in all enemies around the tank. Would take care of the KB concerns.
And saying "Please, don't use AOE as I'm putting enemies to sleep" never worked :p
Except on the Lord Recluse SF - at the very end. Maybe.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Yup, provided you knew that if you woke Numi first she'd clear mind the rest, only did that once in the learning phase :)
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In my experience, requesting that people used ST attacks worked about as well as asking a waterfall to stop. My sleeps were always interrupted.
I am well aware of the KB potential of Robot Masterminds. had a level 50 Incarnate Robot/Traps MM. In fact I frequently teamed with my brother who also ran a Robot/Traps MM. Our most used power was Teleport Foe (and a drink emote) followed closely by Trip mines. Not much survives long against 12 bots, unless its an AV or GM.
I have used KB on bridges. I very rarely knocked anything off the bridge. To do that, I'd have to place myself next to the group of foes. Something you pretty much have to intentionally do. I got more scatter from Tripmines than I did with Energy blasts. The main complain about KB, if I recall correctly, is the scatter. Also, most of your ranged energy attacks are ST. If the team is going to complain because you're knocking [b]one[/b] npc foe around, you really shouldn't be on that team anyway.
Also, Agent Standin rarely use Nova form (and then only to travel in the shard), He used Ninja Run to gain height and drop an AoE power with KB on the group of NPC foes. Aerial bombardment without the use of Fly or Hover. A little harder to manage in caves, I'll admit. But, caves have handy walls to reduce the distance of the Knockback.
Lastly, if the Tank wants foes knocked away from him, then the Tank can move away from the foes. There have been very few occasions where my Tank couldn't move far enough way from a foe that the taunt aura wouldn't affect him any more.
Ahhh fond memories.....
One thing I always wanted to do was take my Crab Spider to Blue side and do the Statesman TF. Once we defeat im yell "Thats right LR I betrayed you and my backpack is stronger than yours!!"
Im getting chocked up now. sniff. Sorry got something in my eye.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
/em sigh
If you write it as a One Size Fits All, you wind up treating even your smart Players as if they're idiots who can't be trusted not to [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.Self-Destruct]Self-Destruct[/url]. And I have been at pains to emphasize every time that the switch would be an Individual Choice ... which would seem to fall under the "a Player can be smart" qualifier that you specify.
And I have never made the assumption that ALL Players are smart. However, I do assert most strongly that in City of Heroes [i]a lot of the Players were smart[/i] ... including a lot of the children who played the game with their parents (such as Sister Flame). Indeed, if you want to pull out the half empty vs half full analogy for the continuum of smart vs dumb Players in City of Heroes, I'd have to say that easily more than half of the Players I ever teamed up with were both reasonably competent and capable of playing their characters intelligently. So by that measure, I feel confident in saying that in City of Heroes, MOST of the Players were smart, because we had a Good Community going for the game (particularly on Virtue, where I played), and that only SOME of the Players were "idjits" who couldn't use a spoon without injuring themselves.
So my sense of the Community in City of Heroes was that a supermajority of Players were "smart" and a superminority of Players were "dumb" ... and it was that superminority of idiots that caused a lot of the problems for everyone (not all granted, but certainly more than their "fair share" as it were). I would LIKE to think that City of Titans would be able to recapture and "resurrect" that spirit of community, fair play, decency and cooperation that I saw so often on Virtue (again, not always, but certainly more often than not by a good bit). This is why I have no problem with putting more options into the hands of the Players in the way that I've been advocating for in the case of Knockback so as to create a more nuanced and [i]interesting[/i] gameplay experience ... because I believe the "average" Player is not only up to the challenge, but would welcome the opportunity to be "clever" in how they use Knockback Powers.
Basically, I believe that the Players of City of Titans are "grown up" enough to be able to ride the bike without the training wheels (or as you put it, hand holding). But then, I'm an optimist about the quality of the people I'm gaming with (although that isn't necessarily true about the quality of arguments I have to do battle with in any game's forums).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You are making a few wrong assumptions redlynne.
1.That "smart" players prefer a more complex game.
Good game design does not have to be overly complex. Games like poker, tetris and chess are built on very simple rule sets and have captivated highly intelligent players for a shockingly long time.
2.That the community was driven by the smart and skillful.
The majority of the community that I observed did not understand underlying game mechanics, and did not care to learn. They played the game for fun, for concept, and comraderie. The min/maxers were a vocal minority, and tended to wander in and out of the game due to recurring boredom.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Just so you know, I wasn't the author of those quotes. I believe that would be McNum that had said that. Granted, I agreed with his stance.
In my play experience, very few of the people I teamed with liked Raids. Therefore, I could assume (which is what you are doing as well) that very few people in the game liked Raids. Most of the time, you are going to find that you tend to team with like minded people, and that will skew your anecdotal evidence a bit.
hmm two very good ideas.
I seen some people really fly off the handle over knockback. Which on many builds, it wasn't too much issue but on an energy blaster, it could leave them basically twiddling their thumbs or not using their full potential or else risk getting kicked. I na game where teams are abound doing that same TF, it may not be issue to simply get kicked and join another team going that way. The reality was that it could take hours if at all to form a team again for that TF just got kicked from the team, which put the player in a very precarious situation. Now if CoT do go the route where teaming is indeed not needed, then getting kicked may be even less of an issue. But if they have team gated stuff like COX it may be major issue for player that got kicked half way through a synapse and have to try and spend hours forming another team and having to start fro mthe beginning of the TF because someone raged about a stray KB.
The -kb in the patch idea, it's a good idea too. Although, though, there are times when KB is required or wanted such as when an overzealous controller type place the patch before the things can be rounded up. In COH especially with a storm toon on the team, a well places KB or two can group them together and no issue. Now if someone gets hair trigger with the patches before they enemy can be rounded p, it's a possibility they now will be catching the business instead of the KB people.
Red idea, good idea. That could work very well and let the player go by case by case basis. At the same time though, there are people that will be butts just to be butts, especially if they know teams for TFs are hard to come by.
Me personally (Mostly played brutes and tanks) didn't care or mind KBs or even if some energy blaster scattered the nice grouped mobs all across the map. I have legs. But of course others found that to be a kickable hassle. As long as they don't bark at me for not catching every single scattered mob that is now probably POed and looking to smash their face in I dont care.
But sometimes, when others get too controlling, the teaming experience gets or rather have gotten too tedious and boring. It aint no fun when someone is constantly telling you, don't use your powers because I want to put everyone to sleep, don't use your powers because I want them in MY patch, don't use your powers because I want them over here or there, don't use your powers because it clashed with MY power. "geesh, we are not here as your back up singers." And of course if TF teams were easy to come by and didn't take hours to form of course it probably would have simply switched and many others have said. Instead of a fun TF session it ends up being, "Geesh, lets get this over with quickly" and as soon as TF completion thing comes up, everyone bounces without speaking and while no one is enjoying themselves, they are not itching to waste hours of forming the team and another hour knee deep into the TF only to quit because the star man is being a dickwad. But as I said, if CoT really mean that teaming will not be a necessity, aka, no team gating, then the issue would be less problematic. Of course there were others where the team members just let it fly as long and adapted but not always and that kind of put the players in a tense situation which is no fun that they must bear simply because no telling when the next time they'll find a team to do certain TF so they can collect the badge, see what the TF is like, get the accolade, or see what the story is about.
I think that is one of the most commonly overlooked variable. Teams for the team gated stuff was not always easy to come by and it sucks having to through out hours worth playing time and then have to spend hours more hoping there are another set of players wanting to do that TF. And some players knew this and made sure to abuse the power and got pushy with "Play my way or else I will kick you" on many occasions across the servers (cant speak for triumph or Justice as I haven't been there much and heard most people on triumph after the shutdown of course were pretty laid back chill people. But on virtue, geebus, "Play my way or else you are doing it wrong and deserved to be kicked" people abound. Victory was simply mostly empty. Freedom, hit and miss. Most just wanted to speed run so they can get back to PVP. Champions was actually ok, One or two but usually they got the business by other people when they acted game Nazi. Liberty was mostly straight, red side but blue side, short fuses many people . Newbie make mistake, *kicked* They don't like the way someone looked, *kicked*, "Hey you didn't take the power I think you should take" *kicked*. And they are probably a minority but they sure to take the fun out of teaming for real and pretending those people don't exist doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course those types will be there but it's a mistake to think "oh just leave the team" is a simple solution all the time when stuff is team gated and not many people are interested in that team gated stuff. With one server, it may also be less of an issue, but not knowing population numbers, I think one factor to solve that problem where people are not empowered to be build and power Nazis is not to have team gated stuff because it might as well end up being that players gravitate towards one or two TFs and do those over and other and those that want to do the off the beaten path TFs end up in the situation of having to deal with those power/game Nazis or else basically be indirectly punished for not bowing down and thus not able to play parts of the game they want too.
All i want is to Alt + Right Click on the Power and be able to change the effect from the popup menu (or what have you).
Also, it be really nice if each attack (or other) Power animations could be set to: Random (default), Animation 1, Animation 2, Animation 3, etc...
And, it be swell if i could Alt + Right Click on "Rain of Fire" and pick the default Diameter:
- Small.. like Burn patch, hits 5 enemies max.
- Medium... not sure... wider, hits 10 enemies max, a bit less damage to each.
- Large... just as big as "Rain of Fire" was. Hits 15 enemies max.
Thanks ;D
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