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IMHO, that kind of thing falls under the heading of "here we flip off reality." Realistically, getting punched by Superman should be like getting hit with a cannonball, and if there's anything of you left after that kind of trauma, the impact into the wall will shatter your skull and break the rest of your bones. [i]Through[/i] a wall requires you to be more structurally resilient than the wall, which is a lot to ask for.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Yeah, the closeness of the spawns also necessitated a nearsightedness on their part that felt kind of weird, too. For my own part, I really liked the rooms where that was a problem (the places where folks usually announced "Room of Death") since dealing with things going crazy is more interesting to me than a formulaic by-the-book progression through a mission, but I have played on enough teams of strangers to know that is not a universal opinion. :) The mix that CoH had of risk of aggro expansion (both in terms of it happening, and in terms of giving us lots of tools for dealing with it) worked for me, so if CoT stuck with that I would be happy.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
That's the thing, innit? The types folks Supes tends to throw through walls are those who'd find being forced to eat only one chip/fry a more painful experience. He might as well resort to flicking peanuts at them. Besides, if people ended up looking like tomato omelettes after being smacked into a wall it'd probably become difficult to keep the game's rating down.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I just can't believe that people are treating Knockback as a [b]DISADVANTAGE[/b] that has to be BOUGHT OFF in order to be ALLOWED to mitigate the effects in Team Play. Even better yet, there seems to be a lot of people here who prefer to enforce an ALL OR NOTHING choice that can't be varied during combat situations and that in order to exercise this choice, Players must INVEST ENHANCEMENT SLOTS in order to effect this choice at ALL TIMES.
Do you people really not understand the absurdity of your positions? Do you really not recognize the double standard you are enforcing and demanding here in fealty to your belief that Knockback MUST BE ANNOYING and that any effort to stop that annoyance from happening must be either PAID FOR or in some other way COSTLY?
And now we're getting the ultimate in "Not My Problem" responses in the form of:
Which is just another way of saying "I got mine, screw you" in proper selfish libertarian fashion while conveying a condescending slap in the face elitism into the bargain.
Out of ALL of the secondary effects that City of Heroes had ... extra damage on Fire, slowing on Cold, defense debuffs on powers that should have been resistance debuffs instead, regeneration debuffs, recovery debuffs, holds, confuse, immobilize, etc. etc. etc. etc. ... the only ones that fairly consistently wound up being complained about as Team Unfriendly were ... Knockback and Stun ... with Stun trailing way behind Knockback in offensiveness.
Why were Knockback and Stun complained about? Because they impacted POSITIONING.
Knockback could push hostiles out of position, dramatically reducing Team Efficiency.
Stun could (in City of Heroes anyway) involve hostiles "wandering off" in a stunned daze at Sprint Speed in a manner they had no business doing, making them unnecessarily hard to Herd.
Heck, you even had powers like Wormhole in Gravity Control and Telekinesis in Mind Control (although in this case it was a Repel rather than Knockback, technically) where in order to use them most effectively/efficiently, you NEEDED TERRAIN so as to be able to push/throw hostiles into a convenient nearby wall. If you didn't do that, you wound up with "useless scatter" that was entirely counterproductive and got you yelled at. Because one of the FEW Team Oriented things that everyone agreed upon was ... positioning. Scatter hurts AoEs, herding helps AoEs. Some builds work on a flypaper model, most notably Tankers, but there were others, where the whole point was to draw hostiles in and let 'em pound away while taking them down. Knockback especially was counterproductive to that effort, and the inability to CONTROL YOUR KNOCKBACK created a serious liability and Team UNFRIENDLINESS to the Knockback aspect of the game. Knockback was great for soloing (except for melee), but was OFTEN problematic in Team situations ... even for people who were "skilled" in use (and abuse) of Knockback.
I'll be honest with you people who want to treat Knockback as a DISADVANTAGE that needs to be "bought off" in order to be able to control it at player discretion and on demand. I'm ashamed of you. I'm ashamed that you would be [i]so narrow minded and parochial[/i] in your interests as to move to shut down a SIMPLE solution to the Team UNfriendly properties of Knockback, simply because you feel like doing that for Knockback would somehow give Knockback an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. Get down off your high horses, people. Being able to [i]selectively suppress the FULL EFFECTS of your own Power(s)[/i] in a way that makes them friendlier for Group Play is not an ADVANTAGE that needs to be PAID FOR! If anything, it would be allowing Players to "Self Gimp On Demand" so as to better coordinate their Powers with a Team and not work at cross purposes to the Team's Battle Dynamics.
City of Heroes made the MISTAKE of setting up some powersets as being Team Oriented and other powersets as being Solo Oriented, such that those powersets were [i]ill suited[/i] to the other style of play. City of Titans [b]doesn't have to replicate this mistake on purpose[/b] ... and I'd really appreciate if you stopped trying to enforce repetitions of mistakes like this one.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
For those who were describing how they coped in CoH, enhancements were a valid option. That could be combined with knocking into walls, timing attacks to go after others, finding your own mob to play with, using knockback to get out of trouble or rescue a friend, teaming with Shield Tanks who knew how to Charge, limiting your targets, blasting enemies towards the tank, or just going for broke. I am enjoying hearing how folks managed knockback in CoH.
Now, for CoT, I'm all for ways to change it on the fly. So long as it is adjusted before or at the same time as your attack, it simply needs to work. But I'll add, if it is a toggle affecting future attacks, then perhaps include 'random'. Not very practical, but cinematic.
Edit: also, melee types might have an option to hit nearest target (of known enemies) instead of swinging at the guy who got away. There's perhaps a better thread for saying this.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
Oh, yeah... that reminds me... in CoH, I kept 'target nearest enemy' bound to a key for just that purpose. I found it was useful on my ranged characters, too. I hope they'll have some additional target commands... I often wanted a 'target most bossy enemy' (they are free to name it more elegantly, of course :) ) when I was on toggle debuffers and scrappers that focused on single-target damage.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
RedLynne brings up a good point, although not the one empathized in the post.
AoE powers. City of Heroes was heavily skewed towards AoE powers in teams. Clump the enemies together, blow the all up at once with AoE. In that context, Knockback doesn't fit well. But that's not the problem here. The problem is that the herd and AoE style was so much better in CoH than anything else that it almost invalidated other styles. And THAT was a problem that couldn't be fixed without out outcries on the level of ED happening.
But in a whole new game? It can! It's simple, really, make AoEs not as powerful as CoH or make it so enemies don't herd very well, maybe even actively try to avoid each other and not clump together, and all of a sudden, positioning for AoEs becomes less important as you won't hit them all with anything short of an ultimate technique. Add some powerful single target attacks, and you have a game where you run into a group of enemies who spread out, then take 'em out in 1-2 hits one at a time.
The irony of CoH is that the only time you fought enemies that would survive the AoE alpha strike, they were immune to knockback. They had to be, otherwise you'd be able to chain-knock an Archvillain and keep them out of the fight for over half the time. Because against single targets, knockback was very powerful. Before ragdolls, you could juggle enemies infinitely with Replusion Field and Fly. Imagine if you could have tackled Lord Recluse and carried him into the air like that. So, they got made immune. And knockback lost its niche. Minions die in AoE strikes, tough enemies can't be knocked around.
So, I hope City of Titans learns from this. Make AoE powerful, but not as dominating as CoH, and have some single enemies that are powerful in a straight up fight, but vulnerable to controls such as knockback. That would solve multiple issues at once.
Maybe the whole AoE issue should have a thread of its own, come to think of it. It won't be a popular thread, but it might be good to get discussed while there's still time.
[b]Damage is KING, and AoE wears the CROWN.[/b]
That's how I put the situation to Arbiter Hawk and Black Scorpion during dinner at the last Player Summit. I used a very simple description of how Damage Enhancements were basically better than anything else (once you had enough Accuracy) by a factor of 2-to-1, because 1 Damage Enhancement delivered the same benefits as 1 Endurance Reduction AND 1 Recharge Reduction COMBINED. And I explained to them that this situation was compounded by the way that AoE Damage worked in the game, thanks to the fact that all Damage was Schedule A.
I explained to them, and they agreed [i]in theory[/i], that keeping AoE Damage on Schedule A along with Single Target Damage on Schedule A was the reason for the reason why the conventional wisdom was ... that Damage is KING, and AoE wears the CROWN. It was because the game mechanics and established balance point favored AoE Damage VERY HEAVILY, and that AoE Damage was only "less efficient" against few or scattered Foes (think like 1, maybe 2) where the Endurance penalty relative to the other options made AoE Damage sub-optimal. But even then, with an attack chain that could sustain the END drain over a period of time (say, a minute or more) even THAT drawback wasn't all that relevant except in sustained HEAVY combat ... like say a Rikti Ship Raid or against a Final Boss on a Task Force/Strike Force or whatever. So AoE Damage basically ruled the roost, and even when it wasn't the best option, it was the "better" option in far too many situations for the Single Target Inefficiency problem to be much more than a speed bump, particularly when factoring in a limited number of Enhancement Slots to go around and choices had to be made between powers.
Arbiter Hawk pointed out (quite rightly!) that if they made [b]ANY[/b] move towards what I was talking about, the forums would crash in flames because the Players simply wouldn't tolerate moving AoE Damage from Schedule A to Schedule B (which would have nerfed AoE Damage by like about -40% Enhancement or so).
Black Scorpion though, got a thoughtful look on his face and said he might know a way to implement such a change without creating another line of Enhancements (ie. Single Target Damage vs AoE Damage) which could have had some extremely NASTY database integrity issues if they tried to "bifurcate" which Enhancements go into which Powers like that. Instead, Black Scorpion figured it ought to be possible to instruct the AoE Powers to treat the Damage Enhancements slotted into them as if they were Schedule B instead of being Schedule A, so as to effect the change I was talking about through a different means than editing the Enhancements themselves. Hearing this, Arbiter Hawk then started looking thoughtful, because it was a change that could be effected without threatening the established database records of what every character "had" slotted into all of their Powers. So [i]technically speaking[/i] they figured that nerfing the AoE Damage to use Schedule B instead of Schedule A [i]ought to be possible[/i] with the code base that City of Heroes had without causing TOO MUCH of a disruption [i]of the game code[/i].
Both of them freely admitted though that even if such a change were POSSIBLE, there was practically NO CHANCE that such a change would be ACCEPTED, particularly at this late date ... and I agreed with them that by Spring 2012, any possible changes in this sort of direction were [i]far too late[/i] to be acceptable.
That said ... the point still stand as valid [i]CONCEPTUALLY[/i], even if it wasn't valid [i]POLITICALLY[/i] in the game environment and established game balance that City of Heroes had settled upon. Which is why I recommend the following "rankings" for damage potential in City of Titans:
Single Target Melee
Single Target Ranged
- gap -
PBAoE / Cone
Target AoE
However, this discussion of Damage Throughputs is a digression from the subject of Knockback, so I'll stop now.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
If it was me yelling at you to turn hurricane off I apologise, it's because the hurricane graphics made me puke (the only effect in the game that did, and only if I was in it but wasn't right in the centre of it, bizarrely my stormie could use it fine). Somebody using hurricane correctly is beautiful to behold, but I just couldn't play a melee toon on the same team.
The problem mainly was that too many people were in the "must do damage" mindset, hence not moving to the optimal position first, and knocking stuff along walls rather than into them. I played a lot of melee toons but a lot of others too, I had around 85 50s, 40-50 of which were melee, and yes I hoverblasted and tried to move first and shoot later because I knew how much grief badly controlled AoE KB could cause to melee types.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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+1. Not popular is definitely correct.
AoE Alpha Strikes are fun in their own way just as Knockback is. So I hope CoT can find a way to make sure both mechanics are fun.
I wonder if that would feel like a spiritual successor to the players who had fun with the old playstyle. Maybe I was just on a weird selection of servers, but I don't recall running into as many people who did it because it was efficient (I didn't do farms much) as I did people who found it a lot of fun.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the change, and I would embrace it wholeheartedly if different AI behavior was a team difficulty option, but a change like that without an option makes me uncomfortable... it feels like it would hit a significant number of CoH players right in the playstyle.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
"City of Heroes made the MISTAKE of setting up some powersets as being Team Oriented and other powersets as being Solo Oriented, such that those powersets were ill suited to the other style of play. City of Titans doesn't have to replicate this mistake on purpose ... and I'd really appreciate if you stopped trying to enforce repetitions of mistakes like this one."
I must disagree with this. The greater loss would be for the devs to settle on one "optimal playstyle" to build the game around. Powersets with obvious playstyle biases forced players who chose those sets for appearance or even RP considerations to at least experiment with alternate playstyles. Did some hate that playstyle and campaign endlessly for changes to the powerset? Sure they did. Did some powers get folks kicked off teams? Sure. Did others discover the most fun playstyle ever, they never heard of? Yep. You betcha. Did some folks go on to create entire themed teaming groups around those despised sets? Again yes.
I would really appreciate it if folks stopped trying to abort the parts of our prior game that they personally disliked.
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I think it depends on what one considers a spiritual successor. For me, that would be a customizable avatar in a super hero setting with a good community.
Well, I don't think it much matters what one considers it (except to the one). The TPP folks have over a years worth of people saying what they liked about CoH, and what they'd want to change, so hopefully they have some idea of what many consider a spiritual successor, at this point.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
True. I just hope the there's less "CoH did it this way, so we have to" and more "Superhero MMO is the real aspect of the spiritual successor"
Red, in Post #95 I really feel you're quoting me out of context.
My point is that the KBer needs to learn to play. As a KBer I was consistently in control of my KB, my tactic was controlled chaos.
Anyone who plays a KBer needs to solo or play in a team friendly fashion. The problem isn't with the effect, it's with the player.
[i]Edit[/i]
I just reread post 95, Red, and now I'm convinced that you didn't read the post you quoted at all.
As a someone who employes and loves KB what I am saying is that is IS my problem. Which is the exact opposite of what you think I said.
If I expect to play my KB-centric character on a team I need to use my phenomenal powers of KB in a team friendly fashion. [b]It is my responsibility[/b] to work together, to "play nicely with others" if I expect to remain on a team.
Please go back and reread my post.
And again I'll say it. Isn't isn't the effect, it's the player.
I'll go along with that as long as we can add "...that doesn't use the trinity and has a depth of play".
That too! I always forget it because I've often ignored it in the MMOs I've played. :p
I used time manipulation...
So It was somewhat important for me to keep mobs together. But heres a funny thing.
I also used the very heavy knockbacks of energy blast. And I had alot of fun using that combination. It made me play very smart with how I used my knockback effects. I did eventually get a knockback to knockdown enhancement but I didn't actually need it. The only thing I didn't like about energy blast was while I did knock them back, the damage was not in sync with the powerful feel of energy blast. An energy torrent knocking someone off his feet, it just felt like it coulda done more damage :).
I was able to use knockback alot, often without even using flight, without really scattering the mobs, and they still died very fast. As it was, you only traded the extra damage of fire blast in exchange for better survivability through control, and I liked energy blast for that reason. I even liked energy blast more than I liked the abomination that was force in CO(where only one attack is really good, all the other attacks suck so much as to be near useless or redundant due to that one attack).
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
Thats what I am wanting in this game to. Something that doesn't use the holy trinity and actually had dynamic team gameplay and dynamic depth of play, something that yeah, MMOs lack. Holy trinity isn't dynamic, and it lacks depth.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
Claiming that as your context is a distinction without a difference. That's exactly the context Red was replying to.
"Learn to play" is purely dismissive and offers no substantive point. So you felt you had control? Congratulations. "Controlled chaos?" Tell us, was that the [i]only[/i] way you could make it work? What if the team needed better position control? They're just going to have to do without, because you're rocking controlled chaos? In other words, it's not "learn to play" but "everyone else learns to deal with my playstyle"?
Your final point is that KBers need to either segregate themselves away from groups or "play in a team friendly fashion", which is too vague to work with, but in practice meant "leave most or all of their attack powers unused." You're demanding the players work around a limit in the system... and then claiming that this is working as intended.
Yuck.
And again, in the context of "super strength" it's ridiculous. Saying they can't control their strength, can't control their punches, is also saying they cannot feed themselves, much less operate a door without destroying it. Adding a "self-nerf disable knockback" control isn't going to make them OP.
Sure, we might not get such a feature. But that doesn't mean it's uncalled for to ask.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I find this whole conversation fascinating. I'm not really pro- or anti- KB. I agree that if you can use it effectively without eliciting groans from your teammates, go ahead. And I can see the point of needing to learn the rudiments of how your powers work in teams.
It seems to me that this could all be solved relatively easily with a multi-build set-up like DCUO, combined with a customizable enhancement system like everyone seems to be assuming we'll have. Slot your powers for KB when soloing, or with your SG who can deal with it, then toggle to another build for PuG play. I can see this as a good natural money-sink also. Am I the first to point this out?
What I worry about, and unfortunately have no brilliant proposal for, is the poor kid who logs into his first MMO, and after getting to level 10 as a solo finally gets up the courage to join a group. Then he gets screamed at for not having adequately min/maxed his controller. This attitude is what turned me off of WoW like hitting a switch.
Most of the people who are making cogent responses here are hard-core gamers with experiences across multiple MMO's. Let's not lose sight of people who just want to enjoy a fun game a couple nights a week and aren't going to spend hours off-line figuring out their enhancement progression for the next 6 months. People like me. :)
*nods* I think one of the cool things about CoH was that it could be fun and interesting for both casual players and more "dedicated" players, but they generally enjoyed it in different ways (the latter getting a lot of mileage out of how creative you could get in the approaches you took to getting the job done). It would be great if non-casual folks could have more opportunities for interesting play (like better AI), but when we talk about making changes like that w/o putting them behind some kind of mission difficulty option, I get concerned we are cutting a chunk of other folks off from the kind of game they enjoyed.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
I am of the mind, like Redlynne has suggested, of having a key that you can press to disable Knockback...
Now, if its going to be a toggle (so on/off), or just "whilst you hold that button down", that I can see being up for debate. If its a toggle, then having a *visual* feedback on the icon for the powers that its affecting would be nice.
Then again, being able to self cast heals on yourself would be nice as well (or other buffs)... Unlike say the problem with some powersets (ie Empathy) where a great deal of it was *everyone else bar you".
As Redlynne has stated, WoW has this feature so you can self cast your spells on yourself if you so desired, and you choose to self cast, just by holding down a modifier key as you cast the spell (I believe you can also just force target yourself though, but this then means that you have to retarget yourself).
Forcing two builds *typically* requires twice the equipping cost, although that is assuming, like CoX, that each build will lock out what "enhancements" you have used. (unlike possibly being able to share some of them across two builds ie, if you have 10 damage enhancements for one build, you have 10 damage enhancements that you *can* use for the 2nd/3rd/4th/Xth build, without having to rebuy those 10)
The underlying issue I see with Energy Blast and Energy Assault - which I'm gleaning to be the primary discussion topic is about the powersets where all (save one) powers in the set had a knockback effect - was just that: all of the powers for "Energy" did a knockback. There were others in other sets... power thrust, force bolt, force bubble, repel, repulsion field... but those were singular powers that were easier to "not ativate" unless in the right situation. It's far more complicated when every power does some amount of Knockback.
Baking Foe Knockback as the default effect for an entire set is a major design issue, complicated with poor balance between single target and aoe powers. I appreciate the use of knockback. It's a beautiful effect that is when applied causes some wonderful unpredictability. However, I really hated energy blast because I had no choice but to knockback every foe.
Any "Energy Blast" type powerset should not have knockback baked into every power in the set. It would be more appropriate to place knockback in one or two signature moves, flourish the set with effects like always-knockback-on-defeat, utilize knockdowns and knockups better implemented than the "mag < 1 = knockdown" crap, and have a stronger disparity to making aoe powers more situational.
Example, in world of warcraft, my warrior has some really strong aoe powers, but their cooldown/recharge is close to a minute. It makes me save it for when everything is grouped up and seize that opportunity where in CoH my fire blaster blew all his aoes in a regular attack chain and only found merit to saving Inferno Blast because of the -recovery, 0 end, and minutes-long recharge time. One of the aoe powers in WoW does some knockback, but it's 5 feet, not 50.
City of Titans is not City of Heroes. I frequently see all of us - myself included in my own thoughts - place assumptions that the devs are modifying the coh databases and structured code instead of the reality they are recreating it from the ground up. In the discussion of "this is what happened and how i felt about knockback in CoH" there was plenty that has been said that is justifiable in that context.
I respect Redlynne's proposal for a player-controlled ability over the knockback, but ultimately, I think there are other ways to acheive this without assuming a powerset or whatever it's called in CoT will have all powers include the same secondary effect. I do agree with her that all-or-nothing, draconian, approaches aren't and shouldn't be what get implemented in CoT.
Points about knockback in a game system I agree with:
-AoE should be situational, not a core rotation (for another topic and thread).
-Knockback the effect is a situational soft-control secondary effect that has a high visibility to all parties witnessing.
-Knockback, Knockup, Knockdown should be separate metrics and not faked through a magnitude threshold on a system level. (exceptions can be made that throttle down knockback to knockdown and vice versa, but not a system-wide mechanic)
-There is a fundamental aspect to Knockback powers that REQUIRES a L2P part on the user to be team-friendly and even good at it, opposed to the usability of +dot, +slow, -end
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Are you the first person to point out that characters with Knockback in their Powers should have to [b]PAY to CONTROL their Knockback[/b]? Why no ... you're not the first person to think that forcing characters with Knockback in their Powers should have to [b]PAY A PENALTY[/b] in order to be able to control the Knockback in their Powers. It just means that you're yet another one of the people who thinks that Knocback is a DISADVANTAGE that needs to be "bought off" (I note that you specifically used the term "money-sink" here) in a way that no one else is "required" to do for their Power Effects.
So are you the first person to think of this answer? Not by a long shot. Look at some of the ideas earlier in the thread and you'll see that there are plenty of people who think just like you do ... that Knockback has to [b]PAY A PENALTY[/b] if a Player wants to control their own Knockback potential AT ALL (via Enhancements and a Second Build) rather than ON DEMAND (using a simple +Keybind or a ++Keybind).
Yeah ... still not impressed by calls to demand "a pound of INF" rather than enabling "a modicum of Player Skill And Awareness" as the solution to this problem.
/em thumbs down
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Is there any particular reason not to do the reverse?
As I said, I have some doubts that there is much overlap in the demographics of the people who are unable, or unwilling to use knockback so that it is not disruptive to the team and those who would bother to use such a system.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that if the game has a secondary effect for which the developers are seriously considering an 'off' button then they're probably better off not including it in the game, at all. If the players know that there is an off button and someone does not use it (or forgets to use it, or didn't hit the correct key), the irritation will be even greater.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
. . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~.,
. . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-.,
. . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:,
. . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,
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. . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.}
. . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./
. . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Geez, Red...try decaf. :) I'm not saying that any aspect of any power should provide an undue advantage or disadvantage to any player. This just seemed like a reasonable outgrowth of all the discussion, as you point out.
You're arguing, vehemently, for something completely different than the original game play, and it sounds like something rather unique in the way you want to implement it. I'm just pointing out that there are easier, more familiar ways to go about it. Are those ways better? I'm not qualified to judge. Mainly because I've never seen it done the way you suggest. Is there a reason it's never been done the way suggest from a gameplay/programming angle? I'm even less qualified to judge.
You get mad props from me, based on what I've read of your numerous previous posts, for having a better understanding of the underlying math/mechanics of CoH. Please, don't become one of the people that just automatically shouts down everyone who doesn't immediately fall in line with their reasoning.
I respect few enough people already, I'd really hate to lose another.
Don't get mad, Redlynne, other people are just as stubborn about things as you are.
Some people are so averse to Knockback that they consider it an evil that must be stamped out. Others enjoy the powerful feeling they get from Knockback, develop some talent for using it, and want to be acknowledged for that talent, to the point where they insist that everyone that wants to use powers with Knockback Must also suffer and acquire the same talents.
Both of these groups find your simple and elegant toggle-solution to be a threat to their position, so they make trouble for you.
I do Not think that Knock should be eliminated. In a world where giant masses and energies are being hurled around, where boulders and nearby cars are suitable weapons, where massive snowballs, streams of high-pressure water, and waves of concentrated energy crash into combatants and nearby terrain, it would be Unbelievable if things didn't get knocked around a bit.
I enjoyed playing Energy Blast and Energy Manipulation characters in the City, sometimes in spite of and sometimes Because of the knocks. I have created characters with the specific intent of 'abusing' knock and rag-dolling every possible enemy.
For myself, I'd like a toggle/click button to crank Knockback up to 11, while having it be a mild presence in appropriate powers, otherwise. I'd like Knock-Up and Knock-Down and a short-range Knock-Back effects, but then, if I focus on a single target or group, I want to be able to hurl them across the street.
I'm in favor of the Mass & Balance concept I've read about, where a target's mass is factored into the knock-effect equation. Some individuals might have a form of traction, resilience, or 'rooting' that would make them more resistant to Knocks, as well.
So. I like Redlynne's original proposal for a programmable key-bindable 'Knock Modifier'. More player control options is better.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Redlynne is suggesting the reverse Fez. lol.. (edit: I may have failed at reading the /sarcasm also)
However, I am now certain in my mind it should not be implemented this way, through a toggle or system option to "mouseover for knockback" or anything like that, and it should be left to what balancing is decided by the devs from a power-to-power and a power-to-powerset decision process. The reason I finally decided against such a keybind (earlier in the thread I was on the fence) is because knockback is a soft control. Players affected are (or...were in coh) unable to cast/attack/etc. for the duration of the animation to rebound and get up. This type of soft control is too powerful to be on-demand through a click/toggle keybind and should be weighed as part of the balancing effect of a power.
Basically speaking, a power like energy blast does energy damage, smashing damage, and "takes the target out of combat for the duration of the get-up animation plus the time airborne." Some games don't have a knockback animation, so once the mob lands it immediately activates a power and/or runs back (which was a very short distance).
There is nothing saying that the devs are going to implement knockback the exact same way as CoH. So, we may see knockbacks only doing 5 feet, not triggering a get-up animation, placed on key signature powers for a set, as a cosmetic "finisher" effect, and maybe even as a keybind. However it gets implemented, I would like to see knockbacks in a way that is fun, engaging, and enjoyable to both the player with the knockback, the players teamed with that player, and the target players affected by the knockback. Most importantly, I would love to see knockbacks implemented intelligently across powers so a single set doesn't have to always account for knockback.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Entirely reasonable to add a cost, if you can't control your KB by playstyle, you pay to control it by a mechanical solution. I suspect I played as much CoH as anybody, I must have averaged at least 8 hours a day for 8 and a half years, a lot of it on PuGs and I saw maybe 15-20 people for whom KB was a benefit, most would have achieved more in a team scenario without it. I was by no means good at using KB, but I reckon its effect was around zero on my contribution to teams, the -KB enhancement slotted in the right power definitely helped.
I recognise it's much more useful solo, but obviously I never saw other people solo.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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Huh.
Much like Gangrel, I was under the impression that Red's proposal was to have a keybind or the like to reduce knockback to a knockup or knockdown.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I was under the impression that her suggestion was to have a toggle/keybind that ENABLED it, not disabled it. Regardless, it probably won't get implemented....
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
If you want "intelligence" and skill to be displayed ... you need to [b]allow[/b] Players to [b]be intelligent[/b] and exercise their skills though use of Player Controls. Anything that you give to Players that allows them to increase the control they exercise over their characters (and what those characters can do) is an opportunity to develop increased Player Skill.
A game that doesn't allow "jumping" is just a 2D maze, but if you allow "jumping" it can become a 3D maze. Introducing the added Player Control of "jumping" makes the game, and its environment, more immersive and interesting to play, and adds an element of Player Skill to maneuvering around inside of the game space.
A game that allows Knockback to happen On Demand makes just as much of a difference in terms of Player Skill as the example of allowing "jumping" to transition from a 2D maze into a 3D maze where some obstacles can be overcome and new pathways found by virtue of Player Skill thanks to increased opportunities for Player Control. It allows Players to use their powers [b]intelligently[/b] in ways that do not [i]have to[/i] disrupt their friends, allies and teammates.
If you want "intelligent gameplay" ... you need to give Players the ability to Control their characters so that they can be [i]played intelligently by the Player(s)[/i], rather than just "making all the decisions for them" and baking those decisions into the way their Powers work so that the only choices you have as a Player are "Use This Power? (Y/N)"
I want a game where [b]HOW[/b] I use a Power is just as important as the fact that I used that Power at all ... and you can't get to that "three dimensional" level of gameplay without giving Players more ways to Control the Effects of their own Powers.
Now, granted ... with most Powers, the secondary effects are not going to be things you'll want to forgo. Extra DoT Damage from Fire? Hard to think of a good reason to turn that down. Endurance Drain from Electrics? Again, hard to think of a good reason not to want that. Extra Mag from Containment? Again, you have to be an ID10T to not want that. Slow Debuffing from Cold? No good reasons to not use it. Immobilize Proc on a Melee Attack? Stops runners, so no good reason to forgo it.
Knockback? Well ... sometimes you want it, and sometimes you don't. Which it is depends on the situation, and combat situations are fluid, particuarly in Team Play. Be nice if you could Play SMART with your Knockback through use of a modifier key, so it isn't an All Or Nothing All The Time. The ability to adjust, in real time, to account for dynamic situations, in coordination with your Friends and Allies ... that's just calls for more "intelligent gameplay" and Player Skill than slotting an Enhancement in a brain dead "set and forget" model.
I want Players to have to Play Smart and be responsive to the game they're playing and to the situations they find themselves in. Apparently, the idea of allowing Players to do that with respect to Knockback is so radical as to be offensive to some people's sensibilities, simply because they've never seen it before as being either possible ... or desirable ... despite the fact that Knockback On Teams was a very frequent source of complaints.
Call me crazy (and some do) ... but I'd rather not let Players get away with the excuse that they [i]have to be disruptive of Team Play[/i] when there's a simple Keybind Control that would let them play smarter. So people need to ask themselves ... do you want to have a game that requires Smart Gameplay ... or do you just want a button masher?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I am not too bothered which way it goes to be fair.... pressing a key to flip it "the other way" is what I was trying to get across...
Side note: This however should NOT take effect for targetted ground AOE's however (Bonfire for example), because they do not directly stop you from attacking a mob, and you can (generally) work around the area.
Did you read any of the other suggestions I made? Your candor seems to imply you just dismissed it all because I specifically disagreed with yours and tried to give thoughtful facts as to why I would not like that method used. Please re-read if you need to and accept my implications that I agree with much of what you're suggesting, just not with the specific of a ++keybind.
There are other ways to implement your suggestion that don't require a keybind that minimizes the game-balancing risks inherent with knockback affecting gameplay to other players. I personally think system controls like mouse-over to cast and ++run keybinds fall under "personal client/user experience" whereas the ++knockback suggestion affects others via the server. That can increase game and server lag accounting for which players have it on and which players have it off, requesting that information within the milliseconds two players with knockback powers cast, and both impact the process to determine how far and in which direction the physics engine needs to send the poor sap that just got double-whammied.
An additional power in a set (specifically speaking like Energy Manipulation's Power Boost which improved knockback), is not an unheard of method that can take the idea of situational and dynamic knockback and apply it with less active checking in the code. I would like to see that player control for smart playing done in the form that "my powers have an enhanceable chance to knock DOWN/UP/BACK but if I click this power I can choose to take that will turn the next few attacks into a stronger knockback instead of knockdown." Heck, make it a toggle power if you want, but it should be in the power set, not the keybind list. Is that unreasonable or unfitting to your design, Redlynne? I would like to think it meets the dynamics to enhance the strength of the knock- effect, it has a clickable option to ENABLE it (where default is disabled/not "strong" enough)...
I don't find the idea of situational knockback offensive, nor do I find your tone toward me offending. I do find it closed minded at this development stage in the thread.
I want a game of smart playing, but easy enough to learn for the button-masher to develop into a smart player, and not develop into another troll to disrupt gameplay when people start raging about something else.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
I disagree that you "need to allow Players to be intelligent and exercise their skills though use of Player Controls." They can exercise their skills through intelligent use of the powers and abilities that they have available without adding any more options for control to those abilities. One very simple and easy way to manage KB in CoH was to use KB the group (or individual) into a wall. All it took was a little thought regarding positioning before letting loose with the KB power. It looks, to me, like you are proposing a system where players can be lazy about their powers usage. Which, they will be anyway, if they are so inclined. No need to give them even more incentive to be lazy though.
What I liked about Energy Blast was that the majority of the attacks were single target, So I could focus on one guy knock him around willy nilly and not bother the rest of the team that I was on with my KB powers. I did use my AoE attacks to push the cluster of mobs into a corner or wall, or to get them away from a squishy having trouble. Other than that, I used my powers intelligently and with fore-thought about how they would affect the rest of the team. Also, I always "apologized" (warned) in advance for any KB that I was going to do while teamed with whatever group I was teamed with. If they had issues with someone having KB on the team, they'd let me know. Most of the time, I was told that it wouldn't be a problem. Occasionally, I left the team because they didn't want any KB at all, and they were probably not the kind of people that I would want to team with after-all.
I can already tell you that the people that would take the time to actually think about how to use their KB effectively, wouldn't need a player control to turn it on or off. The ones that would need it, probably would never use it. Then, we'd be back to where we were in CoH.
I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea. I just don't think that it's really needed, or would be used, all that much.
But should that mechanical solution be "expend an [b]entire build[/b] on removing your power set's KB"?
If alternate builds on a character are cheap, available in large quantities, and can be switched mid-mission without having to leave the instance and inconvenience the team, then you're fine. The "turn my KB off" switch is just changing the build.
But if alternate builds are like they were in COH (you can only have 2 or 3, enhancements/boosts/whatever must be bought for each build, you have to go to a trainer to switch builds, cooldown for switching, and no trainer access during a TF) then this is impractical, and will lead to "sorry, guys, I'd love to team, but this is my KB build, and my non-KB build is still gimped, so I can't."
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I prefer the idea of having a special KB power icon that only appears when a power with KB is chosen. I can click this (or keybind it as I prefer) to turn KB/KU into KD.
This is a toggle that runs until I click it again turning off the KD ONLY component.
To everyone saying "Use the KB to push them into walls/corners" what about the times where there is no wall/corner/etc nearby?
To those saying "Well slot a -KB Boost" well now my build is negatively affected. There goes my full slotting of 'Boost Set 15'.
To those saying "Dual Build" OK fine. But my KB toons get double the in game money and drops than non-KB toons to make up for it.
With my -ToHit attacks I can slot more -ToHit or not if I want any no one in the team is negatively affected.
With my -Def attacks I can slot more -Def or not if I want any no one in the team is negatively affected.
With my KB attacks if I dont slot -KB the team is negatively affected. Or I slot -KB and I am negatively affected.
I think I was a good and considerate Nrg/Nrg Blaster using my powers without much team angst. But it meant I had to be careful with my powers. Is this a bad thing? No not at all. But when I played ANY OTHER Blaster/Corr/Def that didnt use KB did I have be carefull about my placement? No.
I am trying to see any real negative or 'unfairness' to this but am struggling.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Toggle KD/KB/KU is just as bad an idea as it will have teams forcing people into using it whether or not the player wants to.
It really is, and always has been, simple. Don't like KB? Don't use it. On a team with someone who uses it and you really have such an overwhelming hate for it that you can't possibly chase down a target or not feel the best because the AOE isn't hitting as many others? Quit the team. :p
Personal opinion, no inside knowledge what's planned. I'd quite like to see having say a soloing build and a team build as a reasonably normal state of affairs, with stuff being sharable between them.
I usually lead teams, it would be a case of me kicking them, which I don't like to do, or not kicking them, getting a headache and having to stop playing. Being able to ask them to switch to KD is much nicer.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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/signed
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
There are powersets that people didn't like for various reasons. As much of a fan as I was/am of Def/Con/Corr/MM I never did play Empathy, nor did I get FF/Thermal to any significant level.
If there is something you don't like about a powerset, to the point where you don't enjoy the game when playing that powerset, don't play that powerset.
Each powerset can not be all things to all people. You and Red have some myopia on this point, particularly where KB is concerned.
As for needing better position control, I used KB to supply that. A fact I clearly stated in the post Red quoted to selectively call me drug promoting slut (that being my opinion of Liberaltarians). Ad hominems and bringing politics into what was previously a civil discussion is above and beyond anything that has been called for on these boards before or since to the best of my knowledge.
And Red's comments on elitism (which I was willing to let slide till you felt the need to jump into the mud puddle with both size 15 feet) were hardly called for either. I taught a brand new CoH player to effectively use KB as a positioning tool in less than 5 minutes. My L2P, n00b crack was meant to be humorous, not caustic and I am sorry it was taken the wrong way.
Now I'm more than willing to put this little scuffle behind us, let the matter drop, and try to make a productive conversation here. Or we can re-ignite the same flame wars that were on the CoH boards for KB and healing, etc, etc, etc if you like. The ball is in your court.
If I didn't have years of experience being called a liberal by some and a conservative by others, this would have been a rough thread for a libertarian such as myself. :)
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Dont forget, we want n00b's to feel empowered in CoT.
So, I'll have to agree that we should leave KB as the Default and allow KnockDown/ KnockUp to be slotted by seasoned players, if they want it.
I say this because I remember myself as a n00b when i 1st tried CoH, when i created my Energy blaster, and the 1st time I used Energy Torrent on a mob... my thought was: "OHHHH I'm Really Cool!". And from just that One Power, i fell in love. Well, Super Jump was actually another reason. ;)
Something I just realized hadn't been discussed yet, and could prove to be a valuable mechanic would be knock-TOWARD. CO has some powers like this, mainly the chain whirlwind that knocks enemies down and closer to the player. The best example of something else I can think is Samus' grapple hook and Link's Hookshot in Super Smash Brothers. This sort of mechanic could add further functionality to managing knockback "scatter" to provide a grouping aspect to those sets or others to counter balance it.
Let's face it. Knockback CAN be fun, but it's a mechanic that must be learned to be utilized. So in consideration to secondary effects, while available to new players and experienced players, is just a fact of the known mechanics we are biased to see that it has a learning curve not present anywhere else. We also have no idea and it is far too early to establish with any ounce of certainty that there will be duplicates of Energy Blast and Energy Assault where knockback is baked into every power that targets a foe. That said, I'd love to see some expansion on the IDEA of knockback into an entire knock- control powerset...control how and where you mobs stand! (applies options to TK powers, gravity powers, magnetism powers, energy powers....)
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
Quite a few other MMO's tend to have that mechanic of being able to pull mobs *towards* you, they are typically a "tank" ability (to keep the mob on you, or to catch a straggler), but not always...
I cannot think of one that directly *moved* a mob towards you (as in pulling it from way back there, to where you are, faster than the mob can travel) in city of heroes.
Then again, I couldn't get used to how quite a few other AT's played...
* cough *
[url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Pool.Teleportation.Teleport_Foe&at=Class_Defender]Teleport Foe[/url]
* cough *
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Heh, yeah, I used to call Teleport Foe "Tanker Snipe", for the way that it could almost surgically modify an enemy grouping.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Wormhole could be used that way
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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I think that we really have four different models for KB.
1.) player skill in dealing with the power...powers and all effects are set by the Devs and players just deal with it. Use the skill or not depending upon the situation. This really gives the player the least control and the devs the most control.
2.) Toggle On/Off concept via preference or modifier key. This allows the player to determine the KB type on the fly...or set it and forget it. It gives the player the most control and the devs the least. Even though this is not just limited to on/off...it is a binary option...you toggle one specific state.
3.) Adjustment of the powers themselves so that they more logically do or do not KB....this then ties directly back into model #1. This seems to give the player no control, and the devs all the control.
4.) KB modified via Buff/DeBuff enhancements. This gives the player BUILD control over the KB type/level, but no on the fly control. This is a good balanced model between player and dev control...but its all about the build and not the on the fly control. Devs can define the limits (base, upper, lower) and the player can define via enhancements how much thier implementation of the power varies from the base. Really we dont even know how much the enhancements/boosts will modify the powers...so it could even work in an on/off type of state...that part is up to the devs.
We are talking about KB, but this could be equally applied to Stun, Fear and other such situational status effects.
I love KB...I prefer the build method of modification via enhancements off the base power for all of these various items. My main objection to the toggle/modifier key idea is that its one more thing to deal with while playing, one more thing to distract you from enjoying the game, its just an on/off decision.
I knew that someone would come up with one...
*shrugs* Considering the large number of powers in the game, I am kinda surprised that there were not more (taking into account Wormhole listed after you)
I didn't mention Wormhole because that was something only available to Gravity Control. Teleport Foe however was a Pool Power that could be taken by anyone as early as Level 6.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
There are plenty of people advocating different ways to handle this, and even some saying there is no need to handle this.
Time to wait for the Dev's to work on how KB will work taking all of the above into consideration.
Moving onto the next item of interest... :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Sorry, didn't think about collateral damage when I made that post.
Let's just say that I don't agree with your position on these things, but I'll fight to the death for you to be able to hold that position in public.
@Redlynne
Just one more comment here. You are not the only one who feels passionately about certain things. Please try to take that into consideration when posting. I'll do the same. Thank you.
I had an idea for controlled knockback. What I envision is a power or boost for a power that allowed for low damage but high knockback for crowd control. I See this as starting out as a full circle effect centered on the character pushing enemies away (sort of like a nova blast). I know I have seen such a thing before, but what I wanted to see different is the ability to focus the knockback effect.
This is how I see it possibly being implemented:
1st level (or whenever you get this power)---full 360degree effect with normal KB distance
3rd level (or whatever increment works) --- 270degree effect (your immediate rear is not covered) with +1 KB distance, small chance to stun foes (5-10%)
5th level --- 180degree effect (you choose front or rear effect facing) +2 KB distance, moderate chance to stun foes (20-25%)
7th level --- 180degree effect (now you can choose right or left side specific) +2 KB distance, moderate chance to stun foes (20-25%)
9th level --- 110degree effect (basically 2-3 foes in any direction of your choice) +3 KB distance, good chance to cause stun (30-40%)
11th level --- 1foe focused KB effect (any direction) +5 KB distance, great chance to cause stun (50-60%)
The direction of the KB force could be tied into a directional key or mouse click. If they allow for controllers to be used it could be tied into the thumbstick
the main reason to have this is to allow more options for crowd control and not just KB foes in random directions.
NOTE--- the levels/KB distance modifiers/stun percentages are just to provide an example. I have no idea what is a good range for these things (thats what Alpha and Beta are for)
Hope you enjoy
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
When i played my scraper and tank, i hated someone throwing Bonfire or some other KB at my feet and throwing everyone everywhere, yes i am a lazy game player i do not like running all over the room chasing down enemies i already had in a tight bunch. so i am not a big fan of KB, granted if used smartly it was very good, I believe KB should be in the game, but not as much as it was in CoH. I say limit the amount of powers that have it, say keep it to melee fighters or one kind of element control.
Smoker6- Fire/Ice blaster-Protector
Avenger of Heroes- Broadsword/inv Scrapper- Protector
Or better yet, instead of limiting KB, you could just learn to not be a lazy game player :D
My thought is to offer the affirmative.
If you don't like knockback and/or don't like teaming with knockback users.. then don't. But that should in no way limit those who want to punt an enemy across a football field.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Agreed. If I use too much KB or use it poorly...call me on it. If I persist, boot me. I'm a big boy...I can understand if I'm messing things up for the team. Limiting kb means that soloists and teams that like it won't have the option to have it = bad
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Agreed. One of the characters that I liked playing was a Rad/Energy Defender. I just tried to be courteous to the melee members of the team and not knock everything everywhere. I focused on one guy. Usually, it was a boss. If I can keep him busy flopping around, he won't be getting in the way irritating other squishies. And my Illusion/Force Field Controller made very good use of Knockback to tank Paragon Protectors. Repulsion Field in a corner makes even a PP Boss into a mewling kitten.
I have still not seen any posts about how giving me the choice of applying knockDOWN only on demand (via keyboard or button) is a negative.
To be 100% clear I am NOT saying REMOVE all knockBACK.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
The problem is (if I'm not mistaken) this would still force players to use the KD by other players. Or it might mean, don't attack for as much damage to do KD instead of KB.
Thanks Brand X.
1) The problem is (if I'm not mistaken) this would still force players to use the KD by other players
When Im solo I can KB as much as I want.
When in a team if they dont want KB and I have no option but to KB (assuming here that I dont have -KB slotted) then I can cause grief for the team and maybe even be kicked. Or I can leave if I dont want to use KD. This gives ME the choice to be considerate to others or play how I want.
If the team is fine with KB then do what you want :)
Im not saying you HAVE to be considerate but it is now a choice that you can take with zero downtime (no swapping builds, etc).
2) it might mean, don't attack for as much damage to do KD instead of KB.
By having the Keybind/button to swap there is no need to gimp my build so this is not a negative
Another negative with the idea of slotting -KB into your attacks is what if a team WANTS KB? "TaskForce lf1m - note we are light on Tanks/Controllers" - here KB becomes very useful but Ive slotted for less KB so I do less damage and CANT KB without a 2nd build.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Does "knockdown" include the ability to knock someone into the subway?
Sorry.. i've been watching a lot of Everquest Next. (Specifically their "4 Grails")
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Yea... I concur. I was thinking about just that a while ago, but didnt have a plausible solution. When i was reading the thread on AoE damage, i though of using the notion of pressing and holding down the mouse button (or keyboard key, or what have you) for a second for it to switch to the next state. In our case, if you press and immediately release the Energy Torrent power, the state is in KnockBack by default. We need KB to be the default for n00bs. Its a tactical decision to get players Hooked to the game.
But, if you hold down Energy Torrent for 1 second (could be less, just change the Status Effect timings in the KnockBack Settings) and then release the key (or button, or whatever), the status effect iterates to the next Status, which in our case is KnockDown. We could use this mechanic to change the Status Effect for other powers as well.
In case we have a power that needs more than 2 Status Effects, we might want to shortcut it... and this could be Player configurable... such as holding down the key to cast the power, but instead of waiting 3 seconds to get to the respective status effect, you could use the Scroll Wheel to nudge it along right away and release the key (or mouse button, etc...)
If you dont like the Mouse wheel, press a Number Key on the keyboard respective to your Status Effect position in the listing.
Personally I cant press the Left mouse and hold it while trying to use the Scroll Wheel, but I have no problem pressing and holding down the Right mouse and using the Scroll Wheel. Hint Hint Wink Wink ;) As long as i can customize that, I got no problem with that mechanic.
And if you get tired of Scrolling the Wheel, just pop back into the Default KnockBack Settings and change the order of the Status Effects for KnockDown, and move it to 1st in the listing. But I would go one step further and allow the Player to Alt + Right Mouse Click on the power in the Power tray and Change the Default Order of the Status Effect from there... instead of having to do it from the Main Settings Window panels. So, the Player can set whatever Status Effect they wish for Each power individually. and it would be remembered until the Player modifies it.
@Izzy
those kind of hold or charge options are (as has been stated elsewhere) problematic for those with poor connection speeds.
I hold down for 2-3 secs but I get a bit of lag or ping spike or whatever and the game thinks Ive stopped holding down the button/key even though I am still "charging up".
That's why the idea of of "Swap Ammo" type system using either an ingame icon or a keybind would work better (IMHO). I press the icon/key and I change from KB to KD.
If I want a single attack to use KB I hit the key, attack then hit the key again. Just like using BuildUp :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Ummm.. No.
I still like my mechanic more. You set each powers Status Effect to a default, but if need be, you can use the Scroll Wheel to Jump ahead.
Using the method you descriped requires x2 the button presses.. and Yes, ive contemplated about suggesting that mechanic too. Its not n00b friendly. :(
I disagree but thats ok :)
The idea behind this concept is as KB has such a negative impact on teaming for the most part (not all) you can change the KB into KD by a single button press. After that all KB = KD. If I need to KB someone I un-click the icon. After that all attacks are KB (unless the power is KD by default).
To me that is more n00b friendly.
Obviously no matter which way this goes there would need to be an in-game pop-up explaining how this works.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
ehhh.. Alright. It might be more n00b friendly.
But i still prefer the Set it and Forget it i descriped for each power individually, instead of having ALL of them have to use KnockDown... even if you have a Single Target attack that you rather be KnockBack always.
It seems Slotting Enhancements to control the Status Effect was just kicked out the building. ;D And nobody noticed! :O ;)
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!
Where? :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Kicked in the BUDDDD! ;)
Well, it sorta makes sense to do it this way. Now, anyone with a Storm Sumoning powerset dont have to be yelled at since they can set it to KnockDown instead of KnoickBack.. and the Visual Effect can be offset lower towards the knees when the KnockDown is set as the Status Effect.
New character name "Budddd Kicker" :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I don't have any particular preference for solution, but just an idea.
The KB -> KD solution implies the problem lies with the attacker. The problem however is that your melee fellow cannot hit his target if they are too far away. Perhaps some holds (things like creepers/vines) affecting a target should convert KB to KD. Perhaps the melee fellow could have grapples (wrestle moves? Whips that don't just hit and rebound? Lassoo? Grapple arrows? People magnets? Gravity magnifiers?) that convert KB to KD. Then the melee character or a Control-capable teammate can make his own call.
We only blame the KB guy because we can't do anything about it. Perhaps we should.
Edit: KB could also be more elastic - a target that hits a wall and survives could bounce... maybe that's just a different can of worms but it could be another modifier to 'knock'. Some backstories might love that.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
Its not just a PITA for melee but also anyone that uses 'patches' (PBAoE or TAoE) lick Ice Slick, Rain of Fire, etc.
Fire Ranger "MWAHAHA suffer my Rain of Fire evildoers"
Energy Ranger "KABOOM"
FR "How come noone is burning anymore?"
ER "Oooops sorry I KB'd them out of the patch"
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Between Izzy's and Cybertherminals suggestions, I would try to avoid the "charge" mechanic for it. A button that you could press to toggle until next press of the "modifier key" or just for *that* attack until you attack.
For those who are worried about "charge" attacks being a problem, please note that this works in just the same way as movement does. So if you are worried about charging, you should also design the movement system so that it works for those who have bad internet connections.
Solve that problem, you have solved *both* problems.
I'm still amazed by the fact that people STILL want to resist use of the easiest, simplest and most versatile solution to the Knockback? (Y/N) question of [i]letting the Player decide on demand[/i] what they want to do from moment to moment in dynamic gameplay situations that are neither static nor steady state amenable to One Size Fits All. Furthermore, I'm astonished that people still believe that being able to control the strength of your own powers (deliberately self-gimping them for altruistic, sociable reasons) would somehow make them Overpowered because it could potentially facilitate Teamwork and friendly play.
Come on, people ... having a +Keybind/++Keybind solution to the "problem" of Knockback really does put power in the hands of the Players (literally!). The idea that doing this would be a Bad Thing™ falls under the heading of "cut off nose to spite face" level of shortsightedness.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Only when it's a game to test/reward player physical skill. Hold for less than 0.6 seconds, you get the base power. Hold for 0.6 to 0.8 seconds, get an über. Hold for over 1 second, lose all your END. Hold over 2 seconds, someone has already defeated the target.
What was proposed looked to me like a way for the player to tell the client what version of the power to use, a one finger alternative to control-click or whatever. There is no "sweet spot," so the server doesn't care if the player hit it or whether he lies and says he did. It just receives a single message, either "fire energy torrent with knockback" or "fire energy torrent without knockback." Network latency doesn't come into it, though processor latency might.
And if processor latency is going to be a problem with this then you have a *serious* problem that needs fixing. Hell the game itself is not going to be all that playable for the person.
No. You think a toggle to turn on/off KB puts power in your hands, but what it does it put power in your teams hand.
"What you have KB? Turn it to KD or we kick you from team."
Nevermind that some powers would knockback conceptually, not knockdown just so you can avoid the issue of taking two steps to hit an enemy with you melee attack.
Most likely, but its better than being discriminated agains (auto kicked) for just being you. ;)
At least, now, you can PROVE that you CAN Hack It! ;)
How does it take power from you? You'd still have the same options of arguing, offering to prove you could use it properly, not using your powers that have KB in them, or leaving the team as you would have had if there was no way to change it all, though, no? People who have a blanket dislike of KB aren't going to love it more or less, with either approach.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Because those who kick you for having it show who they are. I found teams who saw there was KB were much better able to accept it when you can't turn it off, than when you get the option.
If the power has a *chance* of knock back, then I feel that you should be able to "rig the roll" so that you *cannot* get the knockback (ie you pull your punch).
If the power is *guaranteed* to knock back, then you can possibly modify it so that they get knocked back 1/2 the normal distance (again, pull the punch.)
If the power is an AOE with a duration (bonfire), then you are stuck with it as is.
side note: people will be jerks no matter what.
Brand X, perhaps you were unclear on the concept? Having the capacity granted to the Player to ADAPT to meet the needs/demand/expectations of a Team ON DEMAND is a social courtesy.
So you'd rather not have the --> [b]OPTION[/b] <-- to comply? You'd prefer the following scenario?
"What you have KB?"
You have been kicked from team.
I fail to see how giving players the [b]OPTION[/b] to coordinate (better) with their Teams is something that needs to be prevented at all costs. That's like saying that Supersidekicking is overpowered because it makes finding groups too easy to play with.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I do prefer that option. Because those players who'd kick you from the team for having KB are the same players who'd kick you from the team (using CoH terms here) for being... Force Fielder?! Storm Control?! What?! You're not Radiation, Dark or Kinetics?!
Best to find out who those players are early on and possibly put them on ignore for being basically terrible people :p
so basically you want the option removed, because even if it wasn't there, people would still be jerks...
That is how I read it.
So ... you'd prefer to play a Massively Single Player Online game?
So ... basically your problem is with people who can be jerks, and you'd rather be a jerk yourself rather than having an [b]OPTION[/b] to be an accommodating Team Player.
Good to know.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
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