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Knockback

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Vitality
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Knockback

I can't really speak for anything else...but Super Strength/Might.

It needs knockback.

I know people in CoH were always against knockback...but the lack of knockback from Super Strength was always the "downfall" of the set to me. It just never felt right. Footstomp was really the only power that had a true super strength feel to it.

I even slotted Knockback enhancements to get the correct feel of super strength.

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I'm all in favor of knock

I'm all in favor of knock based powers, but keep the magnitude under player control via slotting for it.

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I'm not necessarily against

I'm not necessarily against Knockback for SS but there's always Knockdown as a more popular alternative.

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Vitality
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm not necessarily against Knockback for SS but there's always Knockdown as a more popular alternative.

Simple knockdown is just not super strength.

A brawling set...like street fighting can be fine with knockdown.

Super Strength should be just that...super. You should knock enemies across the room with your punches.

Knockback is the forte of someone with super strength in nearly all media of this genre.

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I've always loved the

I've always loved the knockback mechanic, especially in CoX. There was nothing more satisfying than blowing a guy a mile back or flinging them off a rooftop to their demise. I got a lot of delight using bootkick while fighting on rooftops and watching the enemy go flying into the aether off of the roof.

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I liked the knockup of KoB, I

I liked the knockup of KoB, I was very happy with KD, but hated KB with a passion. Why ? well I tended to play my melee types with a Tab to target, F to follow, then hit stuff methodology. Lots of KB caused jerky motion of my toon giving me a headache.

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I liked the knockup of KoB, I was very happy with KD, but hated KB with a passion. Why ? well I tended to play my melee types with a Tab to target, F to follow, then hit stuff methodology. Lots of KB caused jerky motion of my toon giving me a headache.

Yeah, I'll just second Vol above... I don't mind KB being an option, but we would need to be able to adjust that via enhancements or whatever ends up making sense in CoT, or SS will be SA (super annoying) to many folks, as well. If the badmens took additional damage from careening off walls, it could make KB more attractive as an option, I suppose, but I will probably remain in the "...and keep your enemies closer" camp. :)

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I liked the knockup of KoB, I was very happy with KD, but hated KB with a passion. Why ? well I tended to play my melee types with a Tab to target, F to follow, then hit stuff methodology. Lots of KB caused jerky motion of my toon giving me a headache.

For what it's worth many of the "annoying problems" that melee-types had with Knockback could be avoided if a player using the KB was mindful of the situation. I contend KB wasn't bad in and of itself - it was just bad if it was USED badly.

One of my favorite alts in CoH was a single-form human Peacebringer. Pretty much every attack she had included KB but I tried my best to use it intelligently. When I teamed with her I used the KB to knock citters TOWARDS the melee types instead of away from them. It worked out fairly well once I knew the "right" way to use it.

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This brings me back to the

This brings me back to the fundamental question of how attacks in CoT will work. If attacks are click only (no "maintain" or "chargable" attacks) then knockback is really just a penalty for players and teams.

I WANT knockback.. I want it to be EPIC feeling to punch or kick something into next week. So please don't penalize melee players by not allowing them to "pre-charge" their attacks at range.

Might and Mez are the two systems I feel the superhero genre HAS to get right for me to enjoy the combat.

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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I liked the knockup of KoB, I was very happy with KD, but hated KB with a passion. Why ? well I tended to play my melee types with a Tab to target, F to follow, then hit stuff methodology. Lots of KB caused jerky motion of my toon giving me a headache.

I'm concluding you were playing mostly melee characters, which I could see would make KB very annoying. However, the very KB situation you describe is what made my ranged characters love it so much. They liked being able to reset closing enemies back to an appropriate location for additional blasting. :-)

I would support an option that allows people to turn it off, but I would be very sad if there were no option for CoH-style KB.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

This brings me back to the fundamental question of how attacks in CoT will work. If attacks are click only (no "maintain" or "chargable" attacks) then knockback is really just a penalty for players and teams.

Can you explain this thought a bit more? As you can see in my post above (I was writing at the same time you were writing), I found it to be very useful, so I'd like to understand your position better.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I still maintain that the

I still maintain that the simplest way to "control" Knockback is to create a Knockback On Demand system, whereby use of a +Keybind (not to be confused with a ++Keybind "toggle") which switches Knockback and Knockup to being Knockdown while the +Keybind is maintained, would be the best solution. That way, if the Player wanted their character to "Pull Their Punches" so as to not Knock a Foe into next week, they could ... On Demand. That way, if you're in a situation where Knockback is counterproductive, you can CHOOSE AS A PLAYER to not have your Knockback attacks do a SCATTERING amount of Knockback ... by limiting your attack(s) to being Knockdown (only) instead while holding down the +Keybind (whatever you set that to be).

Allow Players to control WHEN their powers do Knockback, and you'll have far less complaining about Knockback being "bad" for teams ... and more complaining about Players who don't know how to use their powers "correctly" for the benefit of their teammates ... ^_~


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Redlynne's suggestion sounds

Redlynne's suggestion sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I would like to see player

I would like to see player control on knockdown, knockdown and knockup...via both buff and debuff enhancement.

Knockup...pushes the mob upwards, but they land on thier feet with 1 sec disorient.

Knockdown...knocks the mob to the ground with 1 sec disorient, from which they have to get back up on thier feet (say 1 sec animation)

Knockback...knocks the mob back 30 ft, knocks them to the ground with 1 sec disorient, from which they have to get back to thier feet (1 sec animation)

For sake of argument, lets say that the order is knock-up (mag 10)...then knock-down (mag 20)...then knock-back (mag 30). Via Buffs in the power, you increase the Mag of the Knock effect; via DeBuffs in the power, you reduce the Mag of the Knock effect.

So I could take a basic knockdown power, and buff it to Knockback, or debuff it down to KnockUp.

This also means that you could have powers that increase your resistance (Mag -10) to this effect and may change a knockdown to simply a knockup. And you could then Buff your resistance to increase this amount to the point of preventing the effect at all.

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I like the idea of slotting

I like the idea of slotting for KB as the option. Then SS can be what the player envisions it to be. If you solo a lot and like the mitigation of KB then slot for it. If you team and KB angers the masses you can skip it. Another use for multiple builds.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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If we can't choose between

If we can't choose between Knockback, Knockdown or Knockup dynamically "on-demand" then I favor the "slotting for effect" option. This idea opens up the more general possibility of allowing us to slot any kind of effect into any kind of power assuming you'd want to "waste" the slot with an effect-changing enhancement to get that unusual effect.

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The problem that I have with

The problem that I have with doing this kind of "redirection" of Knockback via Enhancements is that it is "permanent" so long as the Knockback Enhancement Modifier is slotted into the Power(s). There's no Player Control involved ... no decision process ... no active engagement ... no THOUGHT ... except when looking at the Enhancement screen. Using Enhancements to do this sort of thing is a Set And Forget decision, and it's one that creates EXPECTATIONS that since the option is THERE and available, why haven't you done it yet (you stupid n00b you).

Doing it as a +Keybind though turn it into something the Player is RESPONSIBLE for, from moment to moment, and then adds an additional layer of interaction and immersion to the game AS IT IS BEING PLAYED.


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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
This brings me back to the fundamental question of how attacks in CoT will work. If attacks are click only (no "maintain" or "chargable" attacks) then knockback is really just a penalty for players and teams.

Can you explain this thought a bit more? As you can see in my post above (I was writing at the same time you were writing), I found it to be very useful, so I'd like to understand your position better.

If you have click only attacks without the ability to charge them then Ranged players have the constant advantage of having melee only work on a situation basis. If the enemy is over 5ft away THIS second then I can't use melee until i get closer.

1) If combat is mobile but click based then melee range casts will not work at all at distance.

2) If combat is static (not mobile) then knockback is very undesirable for melee DPS.

3) If Combat is mobile and allows chargeable/maintainable attacks then melee should get the advantage of charging EVEN WHEN NOT IN RANGE.

IF the third option is available then might actually has an advantage for knocking an opponent back and charging up their next attack while in pursuit. This is the option support most.

I want Knockback. I want it to be measured.. I don't know how this game will handle attributes if it continues with no stat system, but there needs to be a measurable way to add to knockback distance and a way to resist being knocked.

Needless to say I continually await words from the combat systems designer for more concrete answers to determine what mechanics of combat are in play.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If we can't choose between Knockback, Knockdown or Knockup dynamically "on-demand" then I favor the "slotting for effect" option. This idea opens up the more general possibility of allowing us to slot any kind of effect into any kind of power assuming you'd want to "waste" the slot with an effect-changing enhancement to get that unusual effect.

The problem I have/had with that...was that I would have to give up power for KB...in a power that, in my opinion, should have already had KB.

To expand on something mentioned previously...

...I believe there was a "queue" next power system in CoH. (please correct me if I am wrong)

What if something like this was added for "knockback capable" powers. Where you could "queue" the KB effect.

(granted, this is assuming a lot...especially in terms of how powers will work in CoT...as it assumes they will work the same as they did in CoH)

For instance...Haymaker...would act normally...and just do KD when clicked...but if you "queue KB" it first...it would then add KB to the power on it's next hit.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

The problem that I have with doing this kind of "redirection" of Knockback via Enhancements is that it is "permanent" so long as the Knockback Enhancement Modifier is slotted into the Power(s). There's no Player Control involved ... no decision process ... no active engagement ... no THOUGHT ... except when looking at the Enhancement screen. Using Enhancements to do this sort of thing is a Set And Forget decision, and it's one that creates EXPECTATIONS that since the option is THERE and available, why haven't you done it yet (you stupid n00b you).
Doing it as a +Keybind though turn it into something the Player is RESPONSIBLE for, from moment to moment, and then adds an additional layer of interaction and immersion to the game AS IT IS BEING PLAYED.

Yes I understand that being able to do it on-demand would be super-cool. So cool in fact that the Devs might decide it's a little too overpowered that way.

They might consider the slot-based method more feasible and balanced in the long run. Remember that CoH powersets were balanced along the lines of knowing that they had these kinds of specific effects baked-in. Letting anyone do any of these effects at any time might allow those players too much advantage over the various offensive and defensive aspects of each effect, especially compared to the non-melee powersets which presumably wouldn't have this ability to adjust their effects dynamically in a similar way.

Enhancements which could be used to "adjust" any powers with any effects would be the fairest way to implement this for any powerset, not just the melee "knock-based" ones.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
The problem that I have with doing this kind of "redirection" of Knockback via Enhancements is that it is "permanent" so long as the Knockback Enhancement Modifier is slotted into the Power(s). There's no Player Control involved ... no decision process ... no active engagement ... no THOUGHT ... except when looking at the Enhancement screen. Using Enhancements to do this sort of thing is a Set And Forget decision, and it's one that creates EXPECTATIONS that since the option is THERE and available, why haven't you done it yet (you stupid n00b you).
Doing it as a +Keybind though turn it into something the Player is RESPONSIBLE for, from moment to moment, and then adds an additional layer of interaction and immersion to the game AS IT IS BEING PLAYED.

Yes I understand that being able to do it on-demand would be super-cool. So cool in fact that the Devs might decide it's a little too overpowered that way.
They might consider the slot-based method more feasible and balanced in the long run. Remember that CoH powersets were balanced along the lines of knowing that they had these kinds of specific effects baked-in. Letting anyone do any of these effects at any time might allow those players too much advantage over the various offensive and defensive aspects of each effect, especially compared to the non-melee powersets which presumably wouldn't have this ability to adjust their effects dynamically in a similar way.

Well, in this case...it would/could still rely on chance.

Haymaker had a 60% chance to KD the enemy.

The aforementioned keybind or "queue" system could simply allow "knockback capable" powers to chance for KB instead.

So the chance is still there. The players couldn't simply KB whenever they wanted to.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Enhancements which could be used to "adjust" any powers with any effects would be the fairest way to implement this for any powerset, not just the melee "knock-based" ones.

Correction.

Enhancements which could be used to "adjust" any powers with any Knockback Effects would be the most EXPENSIVE way to affect such an adjustment, because it requires INVESTMENT in order to implement it. It costs an Enhancement Slot, and it requires a nominally "unique" Enhancement that is not one of the "normal" types in order to accomplish this. That means there is a Build Cost to exercising this option. IT COSTS A SLOT.

And yes, I know that towards the end there were Archetype Invention Sets, some of which included this in (some) of them.

As for this being merely a melee-based "knock" problem ... I'd like to point out that I played a Tri-form Peacebringer, and there were LOTS of times when I wished I could CONTROL the Knockback that my Powers enforced courtesy of the Random Number Generator so as to be gloriously INCONSISTENT in their application of Knockback. There were times when I wanted it ... and times when I didn't ... but I had NO CONTROL over it. There were Energy/Energy Blasters and Blappers who had to deal with this problem too. This wasn't just a melee vs range thing. Heck, my Ice/Ice Tanker learned to hate teaming with Assault Rifle, because of all the Knockback thrown around like party favors by the Assault Rifle powerset.

Give Players Control Over What Their Character DOES In Combat.

It seems a simple enough proposition ... which makes me wonder why anyone would be against the notion.


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Redlynne: I agree with making

Redlynne: I agree with making knockback versus knockdown/up a moment to moment choice of the player, but I'd suggest a slightly different mechanism: give everyone a zero-endurance-cost toggle power (that persists through death, mez, and anything else that might normally de-toggle powers) - and that does not, by default, magically appear on your action bars. If it's toggled on, your knockback is knockback; if it's off, it's knockup or knockdown.

There are three advantages to this:

One is that it's not an extra special unique thing that the UI has to handle, it's just another power - if you want to keybind it, you can; if you want to make up some macros so that certain attacks turn it on before and off after, you can do that; if you want to stick it in an unused bar somewhere for special occasions, you can; if you want to ignore it entirely - or turn it on and then toss it off your bars - you can do that, too.

The second is that it's easier on anyone who's got any sort of disability - trying to, one-handed, hold down one key while hitting any number above about five is annoying enough for me; I don't want to imagine how bad it'd be for any of the sorts of people who lauded CoH for being the only MMO they could effectively play (whether that was due to reaction times or motor control or whatever).

And the third is that it results in noobs not doing knockback; if you want knockback you have to actively seek out that ability - you won't get it accidentally coming from someone WHO HAS THEIR CAPSLOCK STUCK ON. Or whatever. (Speaking of Capslock, Would It Kill You To STOP YELLING in all your posts?)

* * * * *

JayBezz: It sounds like what you actually want is two things:
1: being able to start a melee attack while the target isn't in range, and
2: having (at least most?) melee attacks not have animations that root you in place.

I don't see any reason that those things need to be tied to "charge" or "maintain" attacks - you could have click attacks that worked that way.
And, personally, I'd prefer click attacks - they're one of the things that made it possible to have a server-side ability queue, which (mostly) cut latency out of the game as a thing that affects how well you can play. If you want a power that has multiple use modes, I'd be happy with taking that power just granting you two different buttons.

Alternatively, have a button that is just the "charge" part - essentially a build-up equivalent that only affects your next attack. (Hm... a "charge-up" power would actually work quite well with, say, an energy rifle or bahamut-dragon-style breath attack... yeah, I like that idea.)

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+1 for Wyvern.

+1 for Wyvern.
Redlynne's idea was good but Wyvern's takes it to the next step.

I loved my Nrg/Nrg Blaster but was mainly a Melee player so I was very aware of KB and used my powers to help herd enemies towards the Tank/Brute/Scrapper (or push an enemy off a teammate in trouble).
Even then sometimes you hit the wrong button or just make a mistake.
"Sorry for the KB :("

Allowing me to set on demand KB/KU vs KD via a button/click means:
- no special slotting needed wasting a slot/money
- no turning the option on via a per-power click in the Powers Screen (not a bad idea in itself but means I cant change it easily on the fly)
- no need t hold down button K (for example) while also moving and attacking ("I wish I had 3 hands", "You're doing fine with two").

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Wyvern wrote:
Wyvern wrote:

give everyone a zero-endurance-cost toggle power (that persists through death, mez, and anything else that might normally de-toggle powers) - and that does not, by default, magically appear on your action bars. If it's toggled on, your knockback is knockback; if it's off, it's knockup or knockdown.

That's effectively a ++Keybind instead of a +Keybind.

A +Keybind is something that is only in effect so long as the button is depressed. Examples of this are things like movement keys to go forwards. Press the button, move forwards, stop pressing the button, stop moving forwards.

A ++Keybind is something more like Auto Run. Click the button to toggle between off and on states. Click the button and you'll just start running forward ... no more inputs required. Click the button against to stop running forwards automatically.

It is therefore simplicity itself to edit a +Keybind into being a ++Keybind instead. That then gives players the necessary versatility to decide for themselves how they want the bound key to work ... as a "push and hold to move" or as a "click to auto run" sort of behavior.


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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
I liked the knockup of KoB, I was very happy with KD, but hated KB with a passion. Why ? well I tended to play my melee types with a Tab to target, F to follow, then hit stuff methodology. Lots of KB caused jerky motion of my toon giving me a headache.

I'm concluding you were playing mostly melee characters, which I could see would make KB very annoying. However, the very KB situation you describe is what made my ranged characters love it so much. They liked being able to reset closing enemies back to an appropriate location for additional blasting. :-)
I would support an option that allows people to turn it off, but I would be very sad if there were no option for CoH-style KB.

I played a lot of characters (I had 230 on my main account) including energy/energy blasters and other KB types, although melee was my main love. Solo, on a squishy, KB is fine, in teams it's extremely counterproductive most of the time (yes good players could hurriherd, but most of the time it was horrid), I hate to think how many rains of arrows hit 2 targets because the rest had gone flying out of the area.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

That's effectively a ++Keybind instead of a +Keybind.

Not quite the same, actually; as a power it will persist through logging out or changing zones - which a "++Keybind" like autorun should not. (In fact, even just cut scenes should turn off things like autorun - there's at least one game where I've died because the game designers failed to consider that.)

Redlynne wrote:

It is therefore simplicity itself to edit a +Keybind into being a ++Keybind instead.

This doesn't follow at all - in fact, I can't think offhand of any game where such an edit is possible. Which doesn't mean that it can't be done, of course, but it does mean that it's in no way "simplicity itself", especially for average players.

Macroing my suggestion with individual powers, by contrast, could easily give you your "+Keybind" equivalent; I won't insult you by claiming that would be "simplicity itself", but it's certainly not a difficult task if you, personally, would rather it functioned the way you'd originally outlined.

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Wyvern wrote:
Wyvern wrote:

This doesn't follow at all - in fact, I can't think offhand of any game where such an edit is possible. Which doesn't mean that it can't be done, of course, but it does mean that it's in no way "simplicity itself", especially for average players.

/keybind A "+SuppressKnockback"

/keybind A "++SuppressKnockback"

That's the difference right there. If that isn't simple enough for you, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree about what the definition of "simple" means, especially in the context of binding keys to particular functions.

If you'd like to see more examples of how this worked in City of Heroes, have a look HERE and pay attention to the difference between + and ++ on the front of some of the commands ... things like +forward vs ++autorun. In many cases (not all, but many), any command that had a + version also had a ++ version as well. So things like +forward and ++forward existed in City of Heroes, so that you had the option between continuous key press, or click on/click off performance, if you wanted it.

Incidentally, since this is a common feature of the City of Heroes game engine, you can still do this kind of keybind editing in Champions Online and in Star Trek Online, since both games use the same underlying structure and command system ... so you don't have to take my word for it if you don't want to.


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So, in order to edit these

So, in order to edit these keybinds, one must know exactly how to use a specific slash command, which you cannot not find out about via any in-game means or configure through the UI. Right. "Simple". Just like vi is "simple". Yes, we clearly have very different definitions; from my point of view, something is "simple" if an ordinary user can be reasonably expected to figure it out on their own.

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Umm.. why not both? You can

Umm.. why not both? You can do Redlynne's method, and you can do the "I have a toggle I can put on my taskbar that gives me Knockup if it's off, and Knockback if it's on" method >.> Both camp should.. note I said "should" o.O Be happy.

I'd be happy with the toggle. No extra fiddly button for my arthritic hands to try coping with (I loathe the "Hit Alt+1 for the secondary toolbar power) >.> I use the mouse to click my powers, and my arrow buttons to move.. so.. having that in mind.. go ahead and place your left hand where your fingers touch the arrow keys.. grab yer mouse with yer right hand, and try hitting any number or even TAB.. and still move forwards.. backwards.. left.. right.. Oh, and do NOT hit W, S, etc. No other movement is allowed unless it is an arrow key. Oh, and do NOT let go of the mouse.. otherwise, no powers, etc. >.>

Yeah.. having that key that alters what this attack does (ala Alt+ or Ctrl+ ) is not gunna work so well...

Shazam!

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Enhancements which could be used to "adjust" any powers with any effects would be the fairest way to implement this for any powerset, not just the melee "knock-based" ones.
Correction.
Enhancements which could be used to "adjust" any powers with any Knockback Effects would be the most EXPENSIVE way to affect such an adjustment, because it requires INVESTMENT in order to implement it. It costs an Enhancement Slot, and it requires a nominally "unique" Enhancement that is not one of the "normal" types in order to accomplish this. That means there is a Build Cost to exercising this option. IT COSTS A SLOT.
And yes, I know that towards the end there were Archetype Invention Sets, some of which included this in (some) of them.
As for this being merely a melee-based "knock" problem ... I'd like to point out that I played a Tri-form Peacebringer, and there were LOTS of times when I wished I could CONTROL the Knockback that my Powers enforced courtesy of the Random Number Generator so as to be gloriously INCONSISTENT in their application of Knockback. There were times when I wanted it ... and times when I didn't ... but I had NO CONTROL over it. There were Energy/Energy Blasters and Blappers who had to deal with this problem too. This wasn't just a melee vs range thing. Heck, my Ice/Ice Tanker learned to hate teaming with Assault Rifle, because of all the Knockback thrown around like party favors by the Assault Rifle powerset.
Give Players Control Over What Their Character DOES In Combat.
It seems a simple enough proposition ... which makes me wonder why anyone would be against the notion.

Correction to the Correction: Something like that would have to be EXPENSIVE and require some INVESTMENT to justify the major increase in power flexibility you're suggesting here.

I'm only "against" your idea from the point of view that the Devs of CoT would very likely decide that being able to dynamically change what used to be "baked-in" fundamental powerset effects would be one step too far. Imagine being able to dynamically switch between the best effects of multiple powersets with just a fancy keybind - that's what you're suggesting here. Each of these effect types (Knockback, Knockdown, etc.) have their pros and cons in different situations for a reason. No one effect type is going to be perfect for all situations so I doubt being able to dynamically remove that fundamental pro/con concept is going to be acceptable.

My slightly less dynamic compromise of allowing players to choose what they want their powers to do via enhancements is simply much more likely to pass the "it's not overpowered" smell test. At the very least it would be applicable not only to melee users but to the Peacebringers and Energy Blaster types as well. Who's to say (like you already conceded) that they won't come up with more of the new types of enhancements that not only allow us to change power effects but also provide more traditional buffs at the same time (i.e. a single enhancement that provided +20% damage AND Knockback). These combo enhancers (which once again have CoH precedent) could be used with minimal impact to what you negatively called an INVESTMENT of an enhancement slot.

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Wyvern wrote:
Wyvern wrote:

So, in order to edit these keybinds, one must know exactly how to use a specific slash command, which you cannot not find out about via any in-game means or configure through the UI.

Um ... I think you're making an assumption there which isn't supported by the "facts" of standard practices these days. All that would be required to make this information available in game would be a Help topic with an example, and a list of keybind functions. Both of these things are standard features. Granted, City of Heroes could have done a better job of providing this information than it did ... but the functionality WAS THERE if you knew about it, and there were both in game and out of game resources that pointed Players in the right direction to access this functionality if you wanted to use it.

So again ... it's still pretty "simple" to DO, as far as I'm concerned. Knowing that it can be done at all ... that's a different issue, and leads more into areas of being User Friendly, as opposed to being Feature Not Available.


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Even better solution.

Even better solution.
Give me an option via menu on how I want this to work.

KB Controls ()mouse-over help file):
- Hold for effect (hold down the assign button [K] to change all your KB/KU powers into KD. Any power activated without this button pressed will use the default for that power)
- Toggle for effect (press the assigned button [K] once to change all your KB/KU powers into KD. Press this button again to change back to the default)

Give both sides of the coin what they want.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm only "against" your idea from the point of view that the Devs of CoT would very likely decide that being able to dynamically change what used to be "baked-in" fundamental powerset effects would be one step too far. Imagine being able to dynamically switch between the best effects of multiple powersets with just a fancy keybind - that's what you're suggesting here. Each of these effect types (Knockback, Knockdown, etc.) have their pros and cons in different situations for a reason. No one effect type is going to be perfect for all situations so I doubt being able to dynamically remove that fundamental pro/con concept is going to be acceptable.

Wait ... let me get this straight. You not only think, but actually believe, that enforcing Knockback so as to aggravate Teams is something to be supported and designed into the game as a disadvantage to taking certain powersets? You believe that deliberately making some powersets Team Unfriendly should be a design goal and purpose, just because that's how City of Heroes did it?

Bear in mind that City of Heroes had several powersets that were designed to be Solo Unfriendly, so it only makes sense to have some other powersets that were Team Unfriendly too, I guess. But I don't view either of these conditions to be worthwhile or "valuable" design goals.

All I'm saying that with the +Keybind system, you have the following outcomes, controlled by the Player, for Knock Effects:

  • Knockback or Knockdown
  • Knockup or Knockdown
  • Knockdown

If you're suggesting that giving that kind of control over Power Effects is too unbalancing for the game as a whole ... then I doubt we'll be able to come to ANY agreement about this issue that will satisfy you.


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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Even better solution.
Give me an option via menu on how I want this to work.
KB Controls ()mouse-over help file):
- Hold for effect (hold down the assign button [K] to change all your KB/KU powers into KD. Any power activated without this button pressed will use the default for that power)
- Toggle for effect (press the assigned button [K] once to change all your KB/KU powers into KD. Press this button again to change back to the default)
Give both sides of the coin what they want.

Actually, in BOTH of the other topic threads where I've made this suggestion (which I'm too lazy to Search Fu for right this instant), I've suggested the following Options Menu controls:

Knockback: Always Knockback / Default Knockback / Default Knockdown / Always Knockdown
Knockup: Always Knockup / Default Knockup / Default Knockdown / Always Knockdown

The +Keybind would only be relevant for the two middle conditions, while the Always conditions would "ignore" the state of the +Keybind, for all Powers with the appropriate Knock Effects in them. This also lets you "invert" the meaning of the +Keybind so that you never need to use it more than 50% of the time, depending on how you like to use your Knock Power Effects. That's because all the +Keybind does is switch either Knockback/Knockup for Knockdown ... in either direction ... as dictated by the setting in the Options Menu.

Come on people, this isn't that hard.


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I don't see how having a

I don't see how having a toggle, or a modifier key (if that's the way it has to go) as being somehow overpowered.

If you're talking about in PvP, then I'm sure the Devs will think of something to make those people happy. I don't PvP, and don't care about PvP.

For PvE, I see it as giving options for solo.. Options for group play. Without having to spend slots on this or that Enhancement. I'd rather the choice be situational and not permanent.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I'm only "against" your idea from the point of view that the Devs of CoT would very likely decide that being able to dynamically change what used to be "baked-in" fundamental powerset effects would be one step too far. Imagine being able to dynamically switch between the best effects of multiple powersets with just a fancy keybind - that's what you're suggesting here. Each of these effect types (Knockback, Knockdown, etc.) have their pros and cons in different situations for a reason. No one effect type is going to be perfect for all situations so I doubt being able to dynamically remove that fundamental pro/con concept is going to be acceptable.
Wait ... let me get this straight. You not only think, but actually believe, that enforcing Knockback so as to aggravate Teams is something to be supported and designed into the game as a disadvantage to taking certain powersets? You believe that deliberately making some powersets Team Unfriendly should be a design goal and purpose, just because that's how City of Heroes did it?
Bear in mind that City of Heroes had several powersets that were designed to be Solo Unfriendly, so it only makes sense to have some other powersets that were Team Unfriendly too, I guess. But I don't view either of these conditions to be worthwhile or "valuable" design goals.
All I'm saying that with the +Keybind system, you have the following outcomes, controlled by the Player, for Knock Effects:
Knockback or Knockdown
Knockup or Knockdown
Knockdown
If you're suggesting that giving that kind of control over Power Effects is too unbalancing for the game as a whole ... then I doubt we'll be able to come to ANY agreement about this issue that will satisfy you.

You're coming at this as if it's a "solution" to what you call "unfriendly" effects. I'll grant you when some of these effects were used badly then yes they did cause some grief to some people. But I'd also argue when they were used "correctly" then much of the unfriendliness evaporated.

I simply don't believe the Devs will allow a "simple" keybind way to sidestep aspects of effects you either didn't like or didn't care to adapt to. But who knows... with roughly 2 years before launch a lot could change and I could always end up being wrong about this. *shrugs*

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Becky Thunder wrote:
Becky Thunder wrote:

I don't see how having a toggle, or a modifier key (if that's the way it has to go) as being somehow overpowered.
If you're talking about in PvP, then I'm sure the Devs will think of something to make those people happy. I don't PvP, and don't care about PvP.
For PvE, I see it as giving options for solo.. Options for group play. Without having to spend slots on this or that Enhancement. I'd rather the choice be situational and not permanent.

I'd obviously RATHER it be "situational" and/or "dynamic" as well. I simply don't believe that wouldn't be nerfed back at some point in some form or fashion. And for what it's worth I've really only been thinking about this not being passable in PvE - for PvP it would be very, very much more questionable.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Becky Thunder wrote:
I don't see how having a toggle, or a modifier key (if that's the way it has to go) as being somehow overpowered.
If you're talking about in PvP, then I'm sure the Devs will think of something to make those people happy. I don't PvP, and don't care about PvP.
For PvE, I see it as giving options for solo.. Options for group play. Without having to spend slots on this or that Enhancement. I'd rather the choice be situational and not permanent.

I'd obviously RATHER it be "situational" and/or "dynamic" as well. I simply don't believe that wouldn't be nerfed back at some point in some form or fashion. And for what it's worth I've really only been thinking about this not being passable in PvE - for PvP it would be very, very much more questionable.

In PvE (especially solo), if the mob is knocked back 20', or knocked flat on his bottom, who's gunna get upset? o.O

I mean.. if the mob stands up, looks at me, and says "Stop that crap, it's not fair!", then the mob will probably win that fight because I'll be laughing too hard to finish him off.

That being said, I can't understand how choice in KnockUP or KnockBACK would somehow make it overpowered...

Can you explain it more about how it would be overpowered?

Shazam!

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Wyvern wrote:
Wyvern wrote:

JayBezz: It sounds like what you actually want is two things:
1: being able to start a melee attack while the target isn't in range, and
2: having (at least most?) melee attacks not have animations that root you in place.
I don't see any reason that those things need to be tied to "charge" or "maintain" attacks - you could have click attacks that worked that way.

I don't mind click attacks and understand the server issues (but think this has been greatly resolved)

The reason for the charge up for melee was to give the melee style gameplay an advantage that ranged attacks don't have.. specifically because melee will have to regain distance on knocked targets. While I wouldn't mind if the charge up were separate, it does not "FEEL" like getting ready for a big punch.. and the mechanic vs feel is what I was specifically wanting to go for.

Of course this means that conversely, the longer range your attack has the bigger reduction you take to movement speed while casting. (If the cast hits from 500 ft then you are rooted. If melee it's free range. If the cast is mid range then it slows your movement speed to 50%)

This of course only works if there are maintain/charge attacks otherwise Range still has the innate advantage of not needing to be in melee range for all their click attacks.

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Becky Thunder wrote:
Becky Thunder wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Becky Thunder wrote:
I don't see how having a toggle, or a modifier key (if that's the way it has to go) as being somehow overpowered.
If you're talking about in PvP, then I'm sure the Devs will think of something to make those people happy. I don't PvP, and don't care about PvP.
For PvE, I see it as giving options for solo.. Options for group play. Without having to spend slots on this or that Enhancement. I'd rather the choice be situational and not permanent.

I'd obviously RATHER it be "situational" and/or "dynamic" as well. I simply don't believe that wouldn't be nerfed back at some point in some form or fashion. And for what it's worth I've really only been thinking about this not being passable in PvE - for PvP it would be very, very much more questionable.

In PvE (especially solo), if the mob is knocked back 20', or knocked flat on his bottom, who's gunna get upset? o.O
I mean.. if the mob stands up, looks at me, and says "Stop that crap, it's not fair!", then the mob will probably win that fight because I'll be laughing too hard to finish him off.
That being said, I can't understand how choice in KnockUP or KnockBACK would somehow make it overpowered...
Can you explain it more about how it would be overpowered?

Powersets in CoH were designed as complete packages. Their various effects and overall power were balanced by the relative offensive/defensive usefulness of their associated effects. So the reason some powersets were heavily geared towards Knockback and others weren't was mostly due to how those effects worked in combination with the other qualities the set brought to the table.

This is why you never saw a powerset that would allow ANY one of its powers to switch between Knockdown and Knockback at the whim of the user. That would be an overt INCREASE to the overall usefulness of such a set thus rendering it questionably overpowered.

I won't argue the notion that "if I'm solo I should be able to do anything I want" because that's just a Straw Man that avoids the fact that the Devs have to balance their powersets for all situations whether you're teamed or solo.

As I said I'd be happy to be wrong about what they'll do in CoT for this situation. All I have to work with is 8.5 years of precedence of a previous game to support my position on this.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Wyvern wrote:
JayBezz: It sounds like what you actually want is two things:
1: being able to start a melee attack while the target isn't in range, and
2: having (at least most?) melee attacks not have animations that root you in place.
I don't see any reason that those things need to be tied to "charge" or "maintain" attacks - you could have click attacks that worked that way.

I don't mind click attacks and understand the server issues (but think this has been greatly resolved)
The reason for the charge up for melee was to give the melee style gameplay an advantage that ranged attacks don't have.. specifically because melee will have to regain distance on knocked targets. While I wouldn't mind if the charge up were separate, it does not "FEEL" like getting ready for a big punch.. and the mechanic vs feel is what I was specifically wanting to go for.
Of course this means that conversely, the longer range your attack has the bigger reduction you take to movement speed while casting.

I hadn't meant to imply server issues as a cause of latency - I have a very good internet connection, but not everyone can afford that... or is in a place where it's even an option.

And, while I'm not entirely opposed to charge attacks, I don't like the notion of using them to differentiate melee - as my prior examples should demonstrate, I tend to think of ranged attacks when I think of charge mechanics, rather than melee. Plus, I played Energy Melee post-nerf, and have played melee characters in CO with charge attacks, and they both suffered from the low speeds of their attacks. Melee-range snipes should not be a thing, imo. (Except Assassin's Strike type attacks, of course.)

Of course, non-rooting melee attacks might fix that issue. As might making particularly slow "melee" attacks have extra range.

If we do need a way to differentiate melee, though... hm... Yeah, nothing leaping to my mind that'd be good for that. Maybe open a new thread to discuss that question? It's certainly one worth considering.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

This is why you never saw a powerset that would allow ANY one of its powers to switch between Knockdown and Knockback at the whim of the user. That would be an overt INCREASE to the overall usefulness of such a set thus rendering it questionably overpowered.

I'm sorry, I can't take this line of argument seriously any longer. It's just too ridiculous to be believable.


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Yeah, they never had a power

Yeah, they never had a power set that had powers which changed the fundamental parameters, like damage type, of most of the other powers in the set. Oh, wait...

Knockback on a power as an effective debuff for that power for balance... nope.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
This is why you never saw a powerset that would allow ANY one of its powers to switch between Knockdown and Knockback at the whim of the user. That would be an overt INCREASE to the overall usefulness of such a set thus rendering it questionably overpowered.
I'm sorry, I can't take this line of argument seriously any longer. It's just too ridiculous to be believable.

I'm going to have to agree with Redlynne on this one. But I'll add an extra reason: We're not looking at adding this ability to CoH; maybe, in that context, it would have been "overpowered" (I doubt that, but whatever - not worth arguing over). But that isn't the context we're dealing with here - we're looking at building CoT. And if controllable knock/whatever is a balance concern, well, there's no baseline yet - the devs can balance powers however they need to.

As such, the only clearly overpowered effects would be things like "all enemies in range fall over dead, you win". Being able to turn off knockback whenever you want? That's just useful. If it's more useful than attacks with damage over time effects... then tune the dots to do a bit more damage. If it's more useful than lingering debuffs on your targets, boost the debuffs. If it's the most useful possible secondary effect ever, make powers with knockback do less damage, or cost more endurance, or... you get the idea. But all of that requires playtesting, and actual numbers in place.

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Lothic wrote:

I dont like the keybind or menu option for this. To allow you to simply toggle an effect ON or OFF at whim, seems like it could be not only too powerful, but contrary to the goal of the powerset.

Its also a binary option...you either toggle the desired effect ON or OFF.

I still prefer an enhancement based adjustment of this...in the same manner as any other enhancement based adjustment of any of the other stats of the power...Accuracy, Damage, Recharge Time, Endurance Usage, KnockDown and so on.

This fits better with the overall goal of the enhancements module, and still gives you the player the ability to tailor the power to you

If you can say...well I dont want this knockdown set to do knockdown...well then why cant I say that I dont want my fire set to do fire damage. It just opens up things to much and feels like it would be an impossible road for the Devs.

An enhancement based modification of powering given effects up or down via Buff and DeBuff fits with the overall plan and still keeps it within the balance plan of the Devs.

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Quote:
Quote:

I can't really speak for anything else...but Super Strength/Might.

It needs knockback.

I know people in CoH were always against knockback...but the lack of knockback from Super Strength was always the "downfall" of the set to me. It just never felt right. Footstomp was really the only power that had a true super strength feel to it.

I even slotted Knockback enhancements to get the correct feel of super strength.

Super Strength was originally all KB, and it was god awful. You had to chase down every mob to hit it a second time; often aggroing a new group of enemies and getting yourself killed. The devs removed KB from the set for a *reason*

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The devs have already said

The devs have already said there won't be any "fire" damage sets.. there will be BURNING damage sets.. so you can choose, say.. acid.. or radiation.. or anything else that causes "burning". So much for the impossible road for the devs theory.

Also.. putting an enhancement that makes your power Knock(whatever) is also a BINARY solution. You either have the enhancement, or you don't. In addition, you're using a slot that could have an accuracy or damage inhancement instead.

People are saying "the toggle would be too powerful", without giving an example WHY that choice is too powerful. o.O

Would be nice if they gave a nice example of why instead of just saying that as if it were a known fact.

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Maybe its that why do KB

Maybe its that why do KB powers only get this customisable option and not everything else?
And while i dont want to get into the balance for having every secondary effect changeable the problem is that most secondary effects caused very little to no grief for other players in CoH.
Did my Dark Blasters -ToHit annoy the melee toons? Nope
What about my Electrical damages -End? Nope (apart from giving them a laugh as an almost wasted secondary effect)
Radiation with its -Def? Nope
Etc
Etc

So for those saying giving me the choice to KD vs KB is overpowered I dont see WHY unless they are saying because only KB is getting this special treatment. But only KB caused such grief on teams. And yes while people could and some did learn to use their KB powers to help them team that does mean they have to use those powers only in a certain way.
Tank has 15 warwolves around him. Fire blaster unleashes Fireball = No problem.
Tank has 15 warwolves around him. Energy blaster unleashes Explosive Blast = Problem.

If you really dont like this idea please provide reasons why and examples, not just "It will be over powered" or "Well the CoH devs never did that so it can never happen here".

Im sure we all will listen to your ideas if you have reasoning behind them. And maybe so will the dev's.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Maybe its that why do KB powers only get this customisable option and not everything else?

I don't think anyone meant to imply that this would only be done for KB powers. In fact, I think there will be similar powerset-altering mechanisms (similar to Dual Pistols/Swap Ammo) in other powers. It's just that KB is what's under discussion now.

For example, back when Fear mez made things run away screaming, it caused problems similar to Targeted AoE KB in team situations. So if CoT has a similar thing, it would likely need a similar enable switch.

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I never had a problem with

I never had a problem with the way Fear worked in COH, but I played after they made the change so Fear made enemies tremble on the spot and not run away to the other side of the map potentially drawing more aggro and forcing me to run after them.

I can see the potential benefits to having more secondary effects have this type of toggle but Im not the one to say this would be a good thing as the game balance issues are beyond me :).
So powers that affect ToHit can either give you a moderate debuff for 10 secs or a large debuff for 3 secs?
DoT changes from small ticks over 10 secs to moderate ticks over 3?
Etc...

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For a while, City of Heroes

For a while, City of Heroes made all Foe NPCs afraid of FIRE because that was a reasonable/realistic thing to do. All this really managed to do was nerf Fire Tankers into the ground, because now Burn Patches made Foe NPCs run away from the Burn Patch, which was ridiculously counterproductive. I mean, here you have a Power that needs Foe NPCs to stay IN IT in order for the DoT to have any value ... and the Power makes those Foe NPCs RUN AWAY!!! so they take almost NO DoT whatsoever. And if you were playing a Fire/Fire Tanker ... good luck chasing everything!

Made as much sense as dehydrated water.

Point being that City of Heroes recognized when particular effects were counterproductive to enjoyable gameplay. City of Titans should do no less.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

For a while, City of Heroes made all Foe NPCs afraid of FIRE because that was a reasonable/realistic thing to do. All this really managed to do was nerf Fire Tankers into the ground, because now Burn Patches made Foe NPCs run away from the Burn Patch, which was ridiculously counterproductive. I mean, here you have a Power that needs Foe NPCs to stay IN IT in order for the DoT to have any value ... and the Power makes those Foe NPCs RUN AWAY!!! so they take almost NO DoT whatsoever. And if you were playing a Fire/Fire Tanker ... good luck chasing everything!
Made as much sense as dehydrated water.
Point being that City of Heroes recognized when particular effects were counterproductive to enjoyable gameplay. City of Titans should do no less.

And here is the Matt Miller article that mentions that change ;)

Please note: This is written from HIS perspective, so from a player perspective you might well have a different opinion.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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I'm with Matt Miller on that

I'm with Matt Miller on that one. Burn Patch (along with many other PBAoEs) shouldn't have been an "I win" as much as they were, but instead something to make things stay at distance (which, since ranged was almost always weaker than melee in CoH, would act as a form of damage mitigation). My Dark Armor scrapper's Death Shroud should have had a similar effect; it would have created a lot more synergy with Oppressive Gloom (and maybe even Cloak of Fear or whatever it was called) if NPCs didn't just hang around and die.

There's cognitive dissonance when Tanks demand that NPC mobs stay close and die, while Blasters demand that their gameplay be more complex than "get mezzed, no powers work any more, die in a couple seconds." It's the kind of stuff that led to "the mission is broken if we can't win by just plowing through as fast as possible and killing everything in a few seconds a spawn."

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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I thought CoX did fairly well

I thought CoX did fairly well in having kb, even radial kb, but in a very limited number of "gimmick" powers. On large teams I seldom if ever fired a kb power. Though there were teaming projects I joined/led that was built around them. Small teams and solo however those gimmicky powers made incredible things possible with a little creative discussion.
What I have some issue with would be uncontrollable kb. Something along the lines of Tornado. Where the effect is applied by the pet AI with little to no player input.
While many players have not toleration for any kb power on a team, I would still much prefer to have the tool as a choice.
And that does not address the benefits to a ranged dps hero/villain.

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Voldine wrote:
Voldine wrote:

I'm all in favor of knock based powers, but keep the magnitude under player control via slotting for it.

The problem with this idea is people always felt cheated on the damage. Get the visual of feeling powerful, or get the damage numbers to actually be powerful without the visual effect.

Personally, I say if a power should have knockback, give it. People's disdain for knockback was only because they couldn't handle not having their perfect herd all enemies into one big group and AOE to death.

Which reminds me of another suggestion that needs to be made!

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Voldine wrote:
I'm all in favor of knock based powers, but keep the magnitude under player control via slotting for it.

The problem with this idea is people always felt cheated on the damage. Get the visual of feeling powerful, or get the damage numbers to actually be powerful without the visual effect.
Personally, I say if a power should have knockback, give it. People's disdain for knockback was only because they couldn't handle not having their perfect herd all enemies into one big group and AOE to death.
Which reminds me of another suggestion that needs to be made!

I could not agree more.

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I had an energy blaster whom

I had an energy blaster whom I heavily slotted knockback that was super fun to play (when I got to level 50 and could withstand a couple hits finally) It was endless fun to send out an cone with maxed out range and see people flying all over over the place. Or pop an AOE in a mob and then be standing there alone...

But I needed an alternate build for teams. No one would stand for playing with it.

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Becky Thunder wrote:
Becky Thunder wrote:

Also.. putting an enhancement that makes your power Knock(whatever) is also a BINARY solution. You either have the enhancement, or you don't. In addition, you're using a slot that could have an accuracy or damage enhancement instead.

Its not really binary...yes the enhancement use is a binary decision, but if the enhancement Buffs or DeBuffs the KB by some magnitude then its not binary.

there would be a LOT of fine control allowed.

For example...lets take a basic guaranteed knockback power...say HayMaker, which has a Mag 50 knockback. This is all made up for course just for argument sake. Lets say that Mag 50 is enough to KB everything up to a Boss. Say I dont like KB, so I add DeBuff enhancements to lower the Mag of the KB down to 20...lets say that now does KB on minions, KnockDown on LTs and KnockUp on Bosses. I could further add DeBuff to lower this so that it does not even KB minions...depends upon how many DeBuff enhancements I want to add to the slotting.

Another example...lets take a power which has a Mag 10 KnockUp...I really love this power, but wish it did KnockDown...so I add Buff enhancements, enough to bring it to allow me to KnockDown LTs and Bosses...now however it does KnockBack on Minions. No big deal, I figure it kills the minion outright anyway, so who cares.

Neither of these are binary options.

Just throwing random numbers out...lets say that Mag +10 KB is actually KnockUp, Mag +20 KB is KnockDown, and Mag +30 KB is KnockBack. In a very simplified system...each Buff or DeBuff could add + or - Mag 10.

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Whatever is decided on how to

Whatever is decided on how to implement knockback, I think KnockDOWN needs to be a separate mechanic instead of "knockback with range=0" It annoyed me that I had some knockdown powers but the magnitude I would increase was not the soft-control of applying the ability to knock down/back/up a mob and became "suddenly things are flying really far away" enhancement.

I'd think that CoX had a queue power in 1 powerset that I can think of off the top of my head: energy manipulation's power boost. self +special, improved heals, end-mod, knockback, etc. It wasn't an entire queue mechanic unique for all sets, it was one power, and in fact I'd consider build-up and aim queue powers that apply their benefits to the next 1-3 powers used, just like power boost.

After catching up on the thread I have to agree with Redlynne's approach and opinion regarding the balance of knockback vs knockup vs knockdown. I'm still on the fence about it being player defined, as the reason for and against is the same.

Perhaps knockBACK is limited to killing/defeating blows, and powers apply either knock-down or knock-up effects as balanced for soft-control ability. Any boostable effect would either launch the mob/player higher into the air, or take the mob/player that much longer to get back up.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

Perhaps knockBACK is limited to killing/defeating blows,

That has promise.

Granted, I personally want to knockback enemies at all times superstrength...however, this suggestion, if it could be implemented, would probably be the perfect compromise.

Whether they add more knockback or not...this should definitely be added.

Even if Haymaker has a 60% chance to knockdown or knockback...a defeating blow should always be 100% chance to knockback.

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Ultimately however they

Ultimately however they implement it...I just want player adjustable control over the magnitude via the enhancement buff/debuff concept.

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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

Becky Thunder wrote:
Also.. putting an enhancement that makes your power Knock(whatever) is also a BINARY solution. You either have the enhancement, or you don't. In addition, you're using a slot that could have an accuracy or damage enhancement instead.

Its not really binary...yes the enhancement use is a binary decision, but if the enhancement Buffs or DeBuffs the KB by some magnitude then its not binary.
there would be a LOT of fine control allowed.
For example...lets take a basic guaranteed knockback power...say HayMaker, which has a Mag 50 knockback. This is all made up for course just for argument sake. Lets say that Mag 50 is enough to KB everything up to a Boss. Say I dont like KB, so I add DeBuff enhancements to lower the Mag of the KB down to 20...lets say that now does KB on minions, KnockDown on LTs and KnockUp on Bosses. I could further add DeBuff to lower this so that it does not even KB minions...depends upon how many DeBuff enhancements I want to add to the slotting.
Another example...lets take a power which has a Mag 10 KnockUp...I really love this power, but wish it did KnockDown...so I add Buff enhancements, enough to bring it to allow me to KnockDown LTs and Bosses...now however it does KnockBack on Minions. No big deal, I figure it kills the minion outright anyway, so who cares.
Neither of these are binary options.
Just throwing random numbers out...lets say that Mag +10 KB is actually KnockUp, Mag +20 KB is KnockDown, and Mag +30 KB is KnockBack. In a very simplified system...each Buff or DeBuff could add + or - Mag 10.

Which goes back to people then having to lower their damage or accuracy. It was a complaint in CoH. Want to up your KB magnitude? Sacrifice damage and/or accuracy for it. People who want KB want more than just the visual effect to feel like they hit hard.

Sending an enemy 100ft away isn't impressive when you hit them for 1 point of damage.

I think it should be more players should get used to knockback. Sadly it isn't just CoH which suffered from people complaining about knockback.

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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

Ultimately however they implement it...I just want player adjustable control over the magnitude via the enhancement buff/debuff concept.

In my opinion the magnitude of the knockback should be decided by the damage enhacement. The more damage enhancement...the more KB distance.

As that would make the most sense.

However, I do prefer this:

Brand X wrote:

I think it should be more players should get used to knockback. Sadly it isn't just CoH which suffered from people complaining about knockback.

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To be fair as well, my main

To be fair as well, my main was a ST focused Dual Blades/WP Scrapper or ST focused /WP Stalker (preferred Stalker /WP over Tanker and Scrappers), and my PBAOE attacks where usually taken due to love of the AOE animation (Dual Blades and Staff Melee had very nice animations) but only had the base slot slotted with ACC/DMG HO.

My only really played AOE character was Dual Pistols, which came much later in CoH's life, so I just got used to chasing down knocked back enemies, it really wasn't that hard. Enemies that I really wanted standing in one place to DPS (AVs) where usually KB resistant.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Which goes back to people then having to lower their damage or accuracy. It was a complaint in CoH. Want to up your KB magnitude? Sacrifice damage and/or accuracy for it. People who want KB want more than just the visual effect to feel like they hit hard.
Sending an enemy 100ft away isn't impressive when you hit them for 1 point of damage.
I think it should be more players should get used to knockback. Sadly it isn't just CoH which suffered from people complaining about knockback.

But this gives the player the choice...want to adjust your KB, your ACC, your DMG...its up to you. Keep your KB the same, and up your ACC to hit more often, or focus on DMG...make some tough but meaningful choices for your toon.

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Vitality wrote:
Vitality wrote:

captkurt wrote:
Ultimately however they implement it...I just want player adjustable control over the magnitude via the enhancement buff/debuff concept.

In my opinion the magnitude of the knockback should be decided by the damage enhacement. The damage enhancement...the more KB distance.

that is an interesting concept as well...but again...its a tough choice...what if I dont want to increase the KB, but just the DMG? What if I want to decrease the KB, but increase the DMG?

Keeping them seperate allows the player to decide.

And no...I am not a fan of giving everyone everything.

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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Which goes back to people then having to lower their damage or accuracy. It was a complaint in CoH. Want to up your KB magnitude? Sacrifice damage and/or accuracy for it. People who want KB want more than just the visual effect to feel like they hit hard.
Sending an enemy 100ft away isn't impressive when you hit them for 1 point of damage.
I think it should be more players should get used to knockback. Sadly it isn't just CoH which suffered from people complaining about knockback.

But this gives the player the choice...want to adjust your KB, your ACC, your DMG...its up to you. Keep your KB the same, and up your ACC to hit more often, or focus on DMG...make some tough but meaningful choices for your toon.

There's better ways to give choice, and the way you mentioned assumes they're going the route of enhancements when it comes to CoT's Boosts.

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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

Ultimately however they implement it...I just want player adjustable control over the magnitude via the enhancement buff/debuff concept.

Well, if the Devs wind up using something akin to my proposed Control Powers System, Knockback would be a Control Effect and therefore effectively a Debuff (in the sense that you would use Debuff Enhancements to increase the Knockback Effect). A Partial Control (see context in proposal link) would result in a Knockdown ... but a Total Control would result in either a Knockback or a Knockup as determined by the Power. Using a "pull your punches" +Keybind (or even a ++Keybind) as I've outlined would effectively "clamp" the Control Effect on Knockback (on demand) to be Partial Control Only, no matter how much Knockback Mag was generated, thereby producing "Knockdown On Demand" as a desired behavior that is under Player control and command.

This is actually broadly similar to how City of Heroes handled this issue, in that any Knock Effect of 0.7 Mag or less resulted in a Knockdown (effectively). This is why putting Knockback Enhancements (such as the Kinetic Crash Set) into Powers could turn an attack from being a Knockdown into being a Knockback ... because the Mag had been increased past the threshold of a KnockDOWN result.

Interestingly enough, Air Superiority actually did KnockUP rather than "true" KnockDOWN, which is what caused the Power to "flip" Foes into the air and onto their backsides when hitting them with it. Needless to say an even bigger irony was that Air Superiority did not take Knockback Enhancements ... so it was impossible to slot Air Superiority with a Kinetic Crash Set.

Mind you ... I have no insider information on what MWM plans to do about ANY of these issues. I just blather away on the forums where everyone can see.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

... Mind you ... I have no insider information on what MWM plans to do about ANY of these issues. I just blather away on the forums where everyone can see.

Hey... Why u Steal My Lines!? ;)

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
... Mind you ... I have no insider information on what MWM plans to do about ANY of these issues. I just blather away on the forums where everyone can see.
Hey... Why u Steal My Lines!? ;)

Well, you left them laying there on the table, looking lonely...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

There's better ways to give choice, and the way you mentioned assumes they're going the route of enhancements when it comes to CoT's Boosts.

At this point we are all making assumptions, mostly for illustration purposes. Maybe no powers will have any KB effects and it'll purely be an add-on via some enhancement like effect.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Well, if the Devs wind up using something akin to my proposed Control Powers System, Knockback would be a Control Effect and therefore effectively a Debuff (in the sense that you would use Debuff Enhancements to increase the Knockback Effect). A Partial Control (see context in proposal link) would result in a Knockdown ... but a Total Control would result in either a Knockback or a Knockup as determined by the Power. Using a "pull your punches" +Keybind (or even a ++Keybind) as I've outlined would effectively "clamp" the Control Effect on Knockback (on demand) to be Partial Control Only, no matter how much Knockback Mag was generated, thereby producing "Knockdown On Demand" as a desired behavior that is under Player control and command.

I dont like the keybind method to pull your punches, simply for the fact that its a global method of reducing a power and really has to be balanced by the devs on a power by power basis, without giving the player fine control on all the various aspects of a power that the enhancement model does.

That said, what you had outlined in your Control Powers System, via the buff/debuff is exactly the kind of things that would be preferred. This gives the player the control over the parameters of the power functions.

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Why not just have knockback

Why not just have knockback specific enhancements at different levels?

Knockback: Tomorrow
Knockback: Next Tuesday
Knockback: Next Week
Knockback: Three Ways From Sunday
Etc.

- - - - -
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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

I dont like the keybind method to pull your punches, simply for the fact that its a global method of reducing a power and really has to be balanced by the devs on a power by power basis, without giving the player fine control on all the various aspects of a power that the enhancement model does.

Wait ... let me get this straight ...

You don't like the idea of Players VOLUNTARILY being able to REDUCE the "effectiveness" of their Powers BY CHOICE ON DEMAND ... because that would make things hard for the Developers to Balance the Powers?

I'm sorry, but that's about as clear cut of a case of Fire The Nonsequitron as I've come across in quite a while.

captkurt wrote:

That said, what you had outlined in your Control Powers System, via the buff/debuff is exactly the kind of things that would be preferred. This gives the player the control over the parameters of the power functions.

I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. ^_~


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Nope, dont like the ON DEMAND

Nope, dont like the ON DEMAND aspect of it. Love the Buff/DeBuff aspect via enhancements model, but not a simply keystroke on/off (or whatever levels) on demand.

I love the ability to modify, but having to make tough choices. Do I Buff/DeBuff the KB, or the ACC or the DMG or whatever, but then I have to live with my choices, or adjust them further via more enhancements, or redo via some respec process.

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I think some kind of

I think some kind of knockback has to be in the game, because it's all over the comics. Look at something like Justice League/Unlimited, etc. Every fight sends someone flying through buildings.

The easiest way would be all knockback-capable powers be simply knockdown unslotted, but ramp up the knockback distance (a lot, heh) if one chooses to slot knockback enhancements. And alternate builds because you like your teammates (and want them to like you back). Maybe suppress knockback situationally (ala Redlynne's suggestion) or a preference to treat knockback as knockdown when in a team.

Foes that are knocked back should get up fairly quickly to return to the fight unless they're also stunned. I'd say a knockdown could have a longer pause before returning to battle because they don't have to take 5 seconds to run back.

And because knocked back foes take time to return, reducing DPS, I'd want knockback to have a chance of some additional damage, either a chance of it on landing/smashing into whatever, or just a little more in general. This would not be more overall than what you could get on foes who were just knocked down. To balance some of the negative aspects of knockback and keep it fun.

I also like the 100% knockback on final punch when it's going to take the foe out. Cool idea.

I posted something along these lines on the old MWM boards and they said they has some ideas in the works. No one really knows how this can happen till the game gets built and into testing, but I think a comics game has to have some kind of knockback and make its mechanic fun.

Challenge for the devs. :) Good luck!

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captkurt wrote:
captkurt wrote:

Nope, dont like the ON DEMAND aspect of it. Love the Buff/DeBuff aspect via enhancements model, but not a simply keystroke on/off (or whatever levels) on demand.
I love the ability to modify, but having to make tough choices. Do I Buff/DeBuff the KB, or the ACC or the DMG or whatever, but then I have to live with my choices, or adjust them further via more enhancements, or redo via some respec process.

And I'd agree on buff/debuff powers. Knockback? I 'd rather not have "Whoa! That /HAD/ to hurt!" then watch the enemy get up and laugh as they dusted themselves off.

Why it's better to give powers good KB at start. How about awesome KB with Damage at start, then people can choose to slot for less KB and waste their Boosting on less KB? Does the same thing you wanted, just in reverse.

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I oppose any and all ways to

I oppose any and all ways to disable Knockback "on demand", because it'll end up being "on the demand of whiny melee players" and not by my choice. Well, unless the option came with the ability to turn off one of their powers, too, then it'd be fair.

How to "fix" the non-existent problem, would be either to have a lot of knockback so it's expected no matter what powers you bring, or to give melee powers two ranges. The one where it activates, and the one where it automatically moves your character towards the target. Like what CoH called 20 range, or such. Maybe have a quick step animation to go with it,. You know, enemy gets knocked back, you pick your power, you character does a quick hop towards the downed enemy and attacks.

Any knockback power that knocks further than that is probably a dedicated knockback power where the point is to get the guy standing here to be somewhere over there. Far over there. Like Force Bolt was. And a good "GET AWAY FROM ME!" power should do a lot of knockback. I mean that's the entire point of it.

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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

I oppose any and all ways to disable Knockback "on demand", because it'll end up being "on the demand of whiny melee players" and not by my choice. Well, unless the option came with the ability to turn off one of their powers, too, then it'd be fair.

That is the thing... the condition that existed in CoH was akin to having to "turn off" your KB powers entirely in a case where the KB component of the power was (or was deemed by the team to be) inconvenient. It was very frustrating to me to have to leave a chunk of my powerbar unavailable just because some other folks had learned to hate KB. If there was a way to change the KB component, you wouldn't be "turning off" the power entirely in such cases.

Now, whether having something like that as a feature is a good idea gamebalancewise or not, I dunno, but the fact is it would change the question from "can I use this power or not" to "can I use KB in this power or not." I tend to think there would be a healthy intersection of the people who don't use KB well and the people who would not think of disabling it, so having the feature may not end up being as much of a win as some may hope.

Quote:

How to "fix" the non-existent problem

It surprises me that you would call the problem "non-existent". How much I-am-expected-by-the-team-to-absorb-aggro melee did you play in CoH? Given the methods available for maintaining aggro in the game, someone who scatters multiple opponents in random directions is definitely putting the team at more risk in situations where that melee person actually needs to maintain aggro control (that caveat is added since there were plenty of times in CoH where the melee person thought they needed to, when they actually didn't). So, if you end up teamed with someone who doesn't know how to manage their KB, it can be rather frustrating (especially if you are on someone where an aggro aura is a big part of how you hold aggro).

Quote:

one where it automatically moves your character towards the target

CoH had Follow, which was handy for melee combat. It let you stay in range and it was a more efficient way to close with your next target than navigating with arrow keys (especially when you might be SBed). The thing is, I would have to be ready to hit F at all times, to turn it on or off, when I played with folks who used KB willy-nilly, since they would often knock something to a spot where a melee pursuer could be in aggro range of additional, currently-unaggroed, enemies.

So, anyway, while I disagree with you that the problem is nonexistent, I am not sure there is an easy fix. For my own part, I would like the ability to manage whether my power has KB or not, just for my own purposes. To bring this back to the OP, I am not one of those people who played an SS character and wished there was more KB but, given that there seem to be some people like that, I am not opposed to them being able to add that to their SS powers if they want it. I feel like the intersection of people who would go through the bother of adding KB, and the people who would be thoughtful in how they used it, may be greater than the intersection I mentioned above. But, who knows? Not me.

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KB was not the problem in CoH

KB was not the problem in CoH ignorant teams and untrained kb users were. I do not want a very useful and entertaining effect removed entirely over the strident complaint of a vocal minority. If its in a small number of powers or powersets fine. If its something that can be turned on and off that would work as well. Having it enh based would be more problematic I think. It would force you to pick between slotting for the control aspect or some other perhaps more useful effect.
Besides if I showed up on an alt with a more kb focused power or set and the team started bitching without seeing if I knew how to control it, then I knew that was not a team I wanted.

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While I usually had some way

While I usually had some way of controlling my KB on characters with KB, like using Hover or positioning near a wall, I know I never worried about it when none of those conditions could be met, like on my AR/PSI who just released the AOE KBs one after the other.

If you listen to whiney teams, that just means they won't learn to deal with it. :p

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I am endlessly amazed at the

I am endlessly amazed at the community's ability to over-complicate the simple.

Team has room for a player, recruits a player. Said player is using KB in a manner that annoys most of the team. Correct said player. If said player gets butthurt over it, boot them. I follow the 'let them pull the t.v. down on themselves a couple time and they'll quit' philosophy.

KB is a factor of the game. Like HP or End or recharge time or whatever. Players have to learn how to deal with it, solo AND in a team...period.

I had an NRG/NRG Blaster that just dripped with KB back in the day. Solo it was good mitigation. On a team I learned to fly above the target and knock them down or pin them to a wall with it. When the team saw how well that worked, tactics soon became 'Tank goes in first, Blaster pins bad guys to the wall next to the Tank, we all mop up.'

It's a facet of the game...deal with it. As for having it as an option, why not? SS guy can use KB to flatten the bad guy across the room or he can 'tentpeg' him for KD in a team setting to keep him still. So what if he has to burn a slot for it? If the team gripes, he can honestly respond 'Look...I can slot for KB or not. If so, you all have to deal with the KB. If not, you all have to deal with the fact I'm 1 slot short on Dmg/Acc/whatever and not complain.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Becky Thunder
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The only real problem I have

The only real problem I have with the "slot to add KB" idea is; when you knock them 20' further than before, they take less damage..

Just seems.. wrong. They should take MORE damage.. but.. I gave up damage slots for that KB.. so they take LESS.. just.. wrong lol

"Dude.. that guy punched you and you flew 30' across the room!"
"Yeah, I know.. thank the GODS he was slotting for KB.. cause it didn't hurt as much as it COULD have..."

I just feel like getting hit hard enough to send you flying across a room should do way more damage than not sending you flying... just my two carrots.

Shazam!

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I am endlessly amazed at the community's ability to over-complicate the simple.
Team has room for a player, recruits a player. Said player is using KB in a manner that annoys most of the team. Correct said player. If said player gets butthurt over it, boot them. I follow the 'let them pull the t.v. down on themselves a couple time and they'll quit' philosophy.
KB is a factor of the game. Like HP or End or recharge time or whatever. Players have to learn how to deal with it, solo AND in a team...period.
I had an NRG/NRG Blaster that just dripped with KB back in the day. Solo it was good mitigation. On a team I learned to fly above the target and knock them down or pin them to a wall with it. When the team saw how well that worked, tactics soon became 'Tank goes in first, Blaster pins bad guys to the wall next to the Tank, we all mop up.'
It's a facet of the game...deal with it. As for having it as an option, why not? SS guy can use KB to flatten the bad guy across the room or he can 'tentpeg' him for KD in a team setting to keep him still. So what if he has to burn a slot for it? If the team gripes, he can honestly respond 'Look...I can slot for KB or not. If so, you all have to deal with the KB. If not, you all have to deal with the fact I'm 1 slot short on Dmg/Acc/whatever and not complain.

Congrats on the first mention of KB in a non-melee reference. At no less than post #83 out of 84. The rest of you need to broaden your horizons and play something other than the "only real heroes".

I see your Enrg/Enrg Blaster and raise you a Storm/Energy Defender and an Energy/Storm Corrupter. :D

And I disagree with all suggestions for limiting KU/KD/KB. Let the devs bake it into the power and let the players learn to use their powers.

I'll never forget the first time someone actually commented on me using KB to keep the mobs in a debuff patch.

It's not rocket science, it's L2P, n00b.

It took me less than 5 minutes to teach my daughter's BF how to control KB on his stormer. It's not hard. If you don't want the mobs flying all over, knock 'em into a wall.

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Abnormal Joe wrote:
Abnormal Joe wrote:

I thought CoX did fairly well in having kb, even radial kb, but in a very limited number of "gimmick" powers. On large teams I seldom if ever fired a kb power. Though there were teaming projects I joined/led that was built around them. Small teams and solo however those gimmicky powers made incredible things possible with a little creative discussion.
[...]
While many players have not toleration for any kb power on a team, I would still much prefer to have the tool as a choice.
And that does not address the benefits to a ranged dps hero/villain.

I agree absolutely with Abnormal Joe. I notice one dev here who found KB caused problems for his gameplay. But there's a zillion types of gameplay (I don't think I ever used Follow - although perhaps I should have). My energy/energy blaster was a villain in any case, but he still stuck to single target attacks for launching one target into orbit (for fun mostly). Once he had access to KB-to-KD enhancements he nerfed most of his AoE KB, but kept using KB single attacks to embed an enemy in the scenery. Except for AoE Nova. Sometimes evil is more important.

"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin
"One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon

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At the end of the day the

At the end of the day the knockback debate is not much different from aggravation over people who break CC, people who don't know they have CC, those who insist on standing in the fire ("WTF healz?!"), people who don't buff or fail to remove debuffs, tanks with severe tunnel vision, etc.

I agree with the stance Comicsluvr and Col. Kernel have taken: a given person can use their power set well or are at least able to play well on a team, or they're not. If they are disruptive to the group, deal with it accordingly. Adding additional mechanics to KB could certainly be fun for those people who will and want to use them. Folks who KB willy-nilly likely don't figure into that demographic.

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@Darth Fez

@Darth Fez
Thanks for the notice. If anyone thinks I was less than civil, I apologize. I've been on teams where people literally yelled at me to turn Hurricane off and I hadn't blown a single mob away from the tanker. I thanked them for the team and left.

It's not as if I were dropping 3 Tornados willy nilly all running amok at once. Although there's a time and place for that as well.

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Becky Thunder wrote:
Becky Thunder wrote:

The only real problem I have with the "slot to add KB" idea is; when you knock them 20' further than before, they take less damage..
Just seems.. wrong. They should take MORE damage.. but.. I gave up damage slots for that KB.. so they take LESS.. just.. wrong lol
"Dude.. that guy punched you and you flew 30' across the room!"
"Yeah, I know.. thank the GODS he was slotting for KB.. cause it didn't hurt as much as it COULD have..."
I just feel like getting hit hard enough to send you flying across a room should do way more damage than not sending you flying... just my two carrots.

Actually, the physics of reality involve a tradeoff between knockback and damage. Smashing damage is inelastic collision, knockback is elastic collision, and there's a tradeoff between them.

As I was telling Redlynne offline yesterday, if they really wanted to be realistic, they'd assign something like "mass" and/or "balance" stats to each mob, and get rid of the concepts of "knockback" and "knockdown" as things independent of damage. Then smashing damage attacks would use those stats (plus amount of smashing damage delivered) to determine knockback and/or knockdown.

For example, A target has Mass and Balance stats of 100, and takes 50 smashing damage. 50 < 100, so the damage is applied and that's it.

Another attack does 200 smashing damage. 200 > 100, so part of that damage is converted to knockback: 150 points of damage delivered, plus three feet of knockback. (I'm making up these ratios, of course.)

Same kind of effect involves Balance vs. smashing damage to determine knockdown.

This allows targets to have different outcomes depending on their Mass and Balance stats. So you're beating on the above target; they're taking the beating standing up. Then someone drops an Ice Patch under them. Bam, 80% debuff to Balance and 50% to Mass (or whatever). They fall over (knockdown) and the knockback sends them sliding away.

But what if the target was a martial artist with excellent Balance (say, using a Block toggle/charge-down power), say in the 500 range? Well, they don't get knocked down, just pushed back some.

Other examples: a large tower could have high Mass but low Balance, so it could be knocked over but not easily shifted in position. (If you want to get cute, its Balance could degrade with damage, as you chip away at the base of the tower.)

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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And to digress for a bit,

And to digress for a bit, there's an argument, possibly a good one, to be made that most of these aggro-control problems "caused" by knockback were actually due to the rather short ranges of Tanker aggro control powers and other classes' non-long-range powers and the absolutely crowded spawns in most all areas. If Tank PBAoE taunts reached out 100 feet and spawns were 200 feet apart then 20 feet of KB would be far less of a problem.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

As I was telling Redlynne offline yesterday, if they really wanted to be realistic, they'd assign something like "mass" and/or "balance" stats to each mob, and get rid of the concepts of "knockback" and "knockdown" as things independent of damage. Then smashing damage attacks would use those stats (plus amount of smashing damage delivered) to determine knockback and/or knockdown.

I've always felt that it was exceedingly silly for the likes of Superman to throw their opponents, or to hit them with a stone statue or concrete beam. I very much doubt that being thrown through a wall or hit with a rock (or even reinforced concrete) does as much damage as Superman's fist.

But yeah, as with many things in MMOs, it is a question of choice. Do you want more control (i.e. more knockback) or do you want more damage?

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