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Jiggle Physics: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

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Cyclops
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I'm just having a little fun

I'm just having a little fun with the fact we aint never gonna get it...unless brilliant modders step in to fill the empty void.

Halae
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I hear you, Empyrean. That

I hear you, Empyrean. That was... a little much.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Huckleberry
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I didn't like that their hair

I didn't like that their hair didn't move.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

Brand X
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I didn't like that their hair didn't move.

If you play TOR, you'll know that isn't always a good thing if they half ass it.

Huckleberry
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I didn't like that their hair didn't move.

If you play TOR, you'll know that isn't always a good thing if they half ass it.

Yeah I've seen hair done horribly. The best hair I've seen uses cloth physics with a texture to look like hair or is treated as a solid flexible mesh. Any attempt to make individual hair strands ends up looking like a wig made from used paintbrushes.

Using the above, here's my list of games that have done hair physics well and those that have not.

Good hair animation found in existing MMORPG:

  • FFXIV
  • Wildstar
  • Revelation Online

Bad hair animation found in existing MMORPG:

  • The Secret World (before this latest re-issue Beta)
  • Neverwinter (PC version, I think the console version uses simplified hair)

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Last I saw, Neverwinter just

Last I saw, Neverwinter just had bad hair, period.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Brainbot
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Yeah I've seen hair done horribly. The best hair I've seen uses cloth physics with a texture to look like hair or is treated as a solid flexible mesh. Any attempt to make individual hair strands ends up looking like a wig made from used paintbrushes.

Once cheap home computers catch up to the latest tech I think this will become more common.

Not arguing, just stating my opinion. I personally dislike solid plane hair physics in most cases as it usually turns out looking like this

or worse yet this

I mean they aren't really 'bad'. It's more that plane hair physics only suit specific hair styles and so when used on other types it kinda looks off.

Brand X
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Didn't think the hair in the

Didn't think the hair in the second was all that bad. Didn't look to clip into the model at all. Third was terrible.

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Naw, but once I saw the

Naw it's not bad, but once I saw the limits it became all I could see.
At 3 seconds in she bends over and all I can see is where the joint is in the hair, the top doesn't move just a section at the neck flips over.
You see it again at 7 seconds when she thrusts her head forward, this weird kink at the neck. It just keeps happening all through the dance, not just with the back flap (as I call it) but the front sides as well.
Like I said, plane hair physics are OK, but they are best suited for certain hair styles, mostly short ones.
I would love decent tessellation hair in CoT, but I just don't know if it is feasible yet. It might still be just too much of a graphics hog.

EDIT
Actually plane or polygon hair physics work pretty good for anime inspired hair as well.

as long as you watch your limits

Huckleberry
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Actually plane or polygon hair physics work pretty good for anime inspired hair as well.
...
as long as you watch your limits

I agree.

I think the MMD genre art style is meant to imitate plastic otaku figurines, and so the hair and skin and cloth textures you showed in those two videos all have a plastic appearance to promote that art style.

While I am a fan of that style, I am with you that I don't think that's going to be the style that Charles Logan gives to CoT.

But that doesn't mean I don't think hair animated like that wouldn't be appropriate for CoT. (too many negatives?) I think it would be appropriate. I think the style difference between anime style in those videos and more realistic style we will be seeing in CoT would just be a matter of the texture (and UE4 material) used on the mesh. A more realistic style would include the appearance of more detailed hair and maybe some transparent space between follicles while still keeping the mesh shape and motion seen above.

(edit: by the way, I love the dampened reactions of the hair in the second video and would hope we get an option like that for our hair at character creation. I have at least one character idea that would be awesome with hair that suspends in air like that)

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

But that doesn't mean I don't think hair animated like that wouldn't be appropriate for CoT. (too many negatives?) I think it would be appropriate. I think the style difference between anime style in those videos and more realistic style we will be seeing in CoT would just be a matter of the texture (and UE4 material) used on the mesh. A more realistic style would include the appearance of more detailed hair and maybe some transparent space between follicles while still keeping the mesh shape and motion seen above.

I guess, but I personally can't get past that hinge flap look to polygon/plane hair. We all have our things and that's one of mine.

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If our characters could look

If our characters could look like those in the Miku 2014 vid, I'd be so happy. Not that's a style that doesn't look terrible.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I guess, but I personally can't get past that hinge flap look to polygon/plane hair. We all have our things and that's one of mine.

Beware making general statments like that. Just because something uses polygon or planar hair doesn't mean it has to have that hinge flap.

The way I see it, there could be two solutions, but I've only ever seen one in practice.

but first, we have to examine why it is done in the first place:
In order to keep us from seeing the bald head underneath the hair mesh, they lock the hair mesh to the motions of the head. So the only parts that move are the parts not attached to the skull.

The first solution would be to morph the mesh, allowing it to expand and contract with the computational forces such that the volume actually increases and we see the hair appear to extend away from the head without actually detaching at the root. As far as I know, this hasn't been done yet in any game or even any video I've seen.
NVIDIA Hairworks looks to have a solution:

The second solution is to layer the hair, allowing the upper layers to fly free while keeping the inner layers attached to the skull. This is used often and here's a video showing two different layered styles. Notice that their entire heads of hair are moving with physics. I couldn't find a layered design with longer hair in the few minutes I searched, but I'm sure there are examples out there.

Edit:

Well shovel my shingles, I've actually used a couple other videos with good hair physics before in these threads.

Here's one:

in actuality, it looks like the hinge is just higher on their heads in this video, so it's not an example of layering.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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As far as character styles go

As far as manga/anime character styles go, I am a huge fan of manga influenced western art styles (or vice versa).
Overwatch(full size)

Wildstar

Even some of the art in 'The Batman' series, although wasn't a fan of the reimagined designs of major characters

They just seem to have a more customizable look to me. Pure anime/manga like in those Miku Miku videos, tends to be a bit more restrictive in design.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Beware making general statments like that. Just because something uses polygon or planar hair doesn't mean it has to have that hinge flap.

It's not a generalization, its simply what I find to be a limit to that style of hair physics.
I mean I did say I think it works best with short/anime hair styles so I am not sure why you used those as examples.
I'm not saying that plane/polygon hair physics can't be feasible, it's just not something I personally like.

Huckleberry wrote:

but first, we have to examine why it is done in the first place:
In order to keep us from seeing the bald head underneath the hair mesh, they lock the hair mesh to the motions of the head. So the only parts that move are the parts not attached to the skull.

The first solution would be to morph the mesh, allowing it to expand and contract with the computational forces such that the volume actually increases and we see the hair appear to extend away from the head without actually detaching at the root. As far as I know, this hasn't been done yet in any game or even any video I've seen.

The second solution is to layer the hair, allowing the upper layers to fly free while keeping the inner layers attached to the skull. This is used often and here's a video showing two different layered styles. Notice that their entire heads of hair are moving with physics. I couldn't find a layered design with longer hair in the few minutes I searched, but I'm sure there are examples out there.

If you explained this for my benefit, I already know how and why these things happen. It's good to say for others who don't though.
One thing you didn't mention is that it is very difficult to keep polygon hair from clipping into itself. To keep hair sections tight (as polygon hair doesn't have strands, not explaining for you Huck) you need to have more lax collision detection. Once you have very tight collision detection you open the door for all sorts of weird collision glitches. We see this mostly when ragdoll characters clip into the ground and just spaz out, or when you crash a car in a game and you go sailing off into the unknown.
Here is an example specifically about hair:

It's worth noting that hair glitches are not restricted to plane/polygon hair, but in many cases tessellation is easier to control.
Again, I am not saying that plane/polygon hair physics are bad, it just has too many things about it I personally don't like.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

As far as manga/anime character styles go, I am a huge fan of manga influenced western art styles (or vice versa).
Overwatch(full size)
Wildstar
Even some of the art in 'The Batman' series, although wasn't a fan of the reimagined designs of major characters
They just seem to have a more customizable look to me. Pure anime/manga like in those Miku Miku videos, tends to be a bit more restrictive in design.

I would love any of those three art styles for CoT! O.O

Empyrean
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
As far as manga/anime character styles go, I am a huge fan of manga influenced western art styles (or vice versa).
Overwatch(full size)
Wildstar
Even some of the art in 'The Batman' series, although wasn't a fan of the reimagined designs of major characters
They just seem to have a more customizable look to me. Pure anime/manga like in those Miku Miku videos, tends to be a bit more restrictive in design.
I would love any of those three art styles for CoT! O.O

I've never been a fan of pure manga/anime art styles, but I could roll with those anime-influenced western styles. Especially the Batman (though I agree the other major characters didn't work well in that series).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I may have been one of the

I may have been one of the few who liked the new reimaged Joker in The Batman. :p But yes, some of the redesigns where hit or miss for me.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I would love any of those three art styles for CoT! O.O

They are all great, but, while I do like those styles, they only really work within their own universe.
What I mean is that they have a lot of specific 'rules' to character design that would limit the options for players (unless they want deliberate anachronistic player characters). They are not as restrictive as pure manga art direction, but they do still act as a limit. I don't think MWM wants too many restrictions on character design and I doubt they are interested in deliberate anachronism.

Personally, and I have said this many times before, I really hope they set up their own design rules for NPCs that is more subtle while being more representative of western superhero comics.

For example, if you look at traditional 'good guys' in western comics you see some common traits. Square jaws, defined muscles and idealized proportions. Then you look at 'bad guys' with their disproportionate figures, grotesque musculature, protruding brows and hooked noses.
Theses tend to be the most common traits and so it sets the 'design rules' that have been regularly used for years. Obviously it's not a 'set in stone' rule more a guideline.

Now, I am not saying that CoT should follow those design rules, they should make their own and design NPCs with them in mind. If they decide that wide shoulders is how they want to represent heroics then it should be a common trait among their heroic NPCs. If they think large hands are an 'evil' trait then they should make it common on the bad guys.
With some simple design rules like those they can define their art style much easier. They can have quite a few of those 'rules' before it makes any design by players an obvious break from the games art style.

Just my opinion.

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When I saw that there were

When I saw that there were new posts for this thread, I immediately thought to myself, "Oh for f*ck sake, not this again."

Color me pleasantly surprised.

Carry on.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

When I saw that there were new posts for this thread, I immediately thought to myself, "Oh for f*ck sake, not this again."
Color me pleasantly surprised.
Carry on.

No Lothics were harmed in this necroing of this thread.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Huckleberry
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

One thing you didn't mention is that it is very difficult to keep polygon hair from clipping into itself. To keep hair sections tight (as polygon hair doesn't have strands, not explaining for you Huck) you need to have more lax collision detection. Once you have very tight collision detection you open the door for all sorts of weird collision glitches.
...
It's worth noting that hair glitches are not restricted to plane/polygon hair, but in many cases tessellation is easier to control.
Again, I am not saying that plane/polygon hair physics are bad, it just has too many things about it I personally don't like.

That's a good point. I have seen a lot of glitches with collision detection of hair when it gets caught inside another polygon it wasn't supposed to be. I think your description is right on.

I wonder what we'll have in CoT. I would hope we have some hair physics so I can imagine the wind whipping through it when I'm using my travel power.

____________________________________________________

Brainbot wrote:

Personally, and I have said this many times before, I really hope they set up their own design rules for NPCs that is more subtle while being more representative of western superhero comics.
For example, if you look at traditional 'good guys' in western comics you see some common traits. Square jaws, defined muscles and idealized proportions. Then you look at 'bad guys' with their disproportionate figures, grotesque musculature, protruding brows and hooked noses.
These tend to be the most common traits and so it sets the 'design rules' that have been regularly used for years. Obviously it's not a 'set in stone' rule more a guideline.
Now, I am not saying that CoT should follow those design rules, they should make their own and design NPCs with them in mind. If they decide that wide shoulders is how they want to represent heroics then it should be a common trait among their heroic NPCs. If they think large hands are an 'evil' trait then they should make it common on the bad guys.
With some simple design rules like those they can define their art style much easier. They can have quite a few of those 'rules' before it makes any design by players an obvious break from the games art style.
Just my opinion.

Wow.

I love where you are coming from with this. I hope Charles Logan and the rest of the art team are paying attention.

And since we are capable of playing villains ourselves, I hope those anomalous characteristics would be available for player characters as well.

Potential Titans:
Trap Spider - the little spider rides a big robot
Thunderbird Priest - conduit of the Thunderbird spirit
Lovebot - programmed to love man, gives tough love to mankind
Schwarzchild - singularity-manipulating time traveller is lost

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I wonder what we'll have in CoT. I would hope we have some hair physics so I can imagine the wind whipping through it when I'm using my travel power.

Given how graphically intensive tessellation tends to be I would be surprised if they used it. Most likely it will be plane/polygon hair. Though I've been wrong enough times to know nothing I say is a gospel.

Huckleberry wrote:

I love where you are coming from with this. I hope Charles Logan and the rest of the art team are paying attention.

I am an amateur at best when it comes to art. I am sure the people involved who have studied art have long since thought about this stuff and much more cohesively than me. I am more saying these things for those in MWM that don't have art backgrounds. It's a kind of 'listen to your artists' word of advise than anything else.
But still, thanks for the compliment.

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I can tell you with fair

I can tell you with fair certainty there will be hair dynamics, although I can't show you any results at this time because the authoring tools and actual physics guts are still up in the air. APEX is the most mature and its authoring tools JUST got integrated into the UE Editor but it isn't ideal for things like long braids or very complex "layered" hairstyles; UE's native Inverse Kinematics dynamics is good for long braids, but collision against the character requires some custom low level programming that is outside our scope at this time; and we have another physics plugin that has really great features, but no authoring tools at all at this time. This is not tightly connected to the hair models themselves, which are progressing fine:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/1792126

Hunter is a really exceptional specialist with polygonal hair modeling and one way or another we'll find a way to get some good-looking motion out of his work.

I love strand based hair very much, here's some previous work I've done with it:



But there is no way to do this sort of detail in a realtime game engine, not today, not in a MMO with large numbers of players hanging around.

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Neat! Thanks for sharing

Neat! Thanks for sharing this.

We do have a few excellent artists down in 'Artists' Alley' (https://cityoftitans.com/forums/media-sharing) but they're not free to devote time to the game itself, unfortunately. Too busy just keeping the wolves at bay. If you get bored, or just feel like sharing, feel free to start your own gallery-thread.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Flesh Forge wrote:
Flesh Forge wrote:

Hunter is a really exceptional specialist with polygonal hair modeling and one way or another we'll find a way to get some good-looking motion out of his work.

I'm sure you will. It's just my own hangup, don't take it personal.

I like your strand hair designs. I am assuming you didn't use textured skull caps because those hair pieces are wips and you needed high contrast to see how the hair behaves?
Very nice to see some of your work, thanks.

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Those are just viewport

Those are just viewport previews, they're not actually rendered with full hair count. While yes, you can use a textured skullcap - and in fact I actually painted one for the growth/density distribution map - I didn't bother mixing it on the skin material because it didn't matter in the final render.

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Flesh Forge wrote:
Flesh Forge wrote:

Those are just viewport previews, they're not actually rendered with full hair count. While yes, you can use a textured skullcap - and in fact I actually painted one for the growth/density distribution map - I didn't bother mixing it on the skin material because it didn't matter in the final render.

Oh, so those are art pieces and not early in game hair work. Sorry for the confusion. Do you have finished work to show with these images? Just curious so don't feel obliged.

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I guess I wasn't too clear,

I guess I wasn't too clear, those are examples of what you CAN'T do in a realtime engine MMO with a hundred other people milling around you. Strand-based head hair on characters in a MMO is not going to be practical for the foreseeable future.

I thought I had some full renders saved but apparently not, sorry. It takes hours to render them out in high quality.

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No worries, I just like

No worries, I just like seeing the work of people who are much better than me.

Lin Chiao Feng
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

No worries, I just like seeing the work of people who are much better than me.

That makes two of us.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

When I saw that there were new posts for this thread, I immediately thought to myself, "Oh for f*ck sake, not this again."
Color me pleasantly surprised.
Carry on.

No Lothics were harmed in this necroing of this thread.

Well since this thread got necro'd again for like the dozenth time I figured I'd finally give the latest batch of posts a quick looking at. I've honestly not even -read- this thread for about a month or so.

Flesh Forge wrote:

Strand-based head hair on characters in a MMO is not going to be practical for the foreseeable future.

I'm sure there was a time when people said the same about things like capes and wings in CoH as well.

Seeing that the talk in this thread has wandered towards discussing the relative merits of pushing the bleeding edge of hair physics I find myself bemused once again at people's priorities and what they want to see in a game like CoT. One could be forgiven for thinking that based on my past "cheerleading" for body physics that I would ALSO be a big proponent for having a game that provides the best hair physics as well. Let's just say I love the sweet hypocrisy of people who'd want the Devs to waste gobs of time on certain outrageously Herculean "six sigma" type efforts for specific kinds of trivial cosmetic detail and then turn around a claim that other perhaps equally challenging goals are not (or even will never) be worth the effort. I guess everyone has their Holy Grail they're willing to quest for.

If CoT turns out to be a game that manages to push the limits of what MMOs can typically do with things like hair physics that can only represent good news for all of us. Remember CoH launched -without- capes, wings, auras, animated tails, animated hair (at least they tried it with Ghost Widow) and so on. These things were considered "impossible" in 2004... by 2012 we had them all. Remember that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Remember CoH launched -without- capes, wings, auras, animated tails, animated hair (at least they tried it with Ghost Widow) and so on. These things were considered "impossible" in 2004... by 2012 we had them all. Remember that.

That is actually quite exciting to think about. If we can get this game on it's feet and keep it there, who knows where development will go. Especially since they have put no small amount of effort into making it very flexible for future development.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

. . snip . . If CoT turns out to be a game that manages to push the limits of what MMOs can typically do with things like hair physics that can only represent good news for all of us. Remember CoH launched -without- capes, wings, auras, animated tails, animated hair (at least they tried it with Ghost Widow) and so on. These things were considered "impossible" in 2004... by 2012 we had them all. Remember that.

um, Lothic? Would you really let us forget?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Flesh Forge wrote:
Strand-based head hair on characters in a MMO is not going to be practical for the foreseeable future.
I'm sure there was a time when people said the same about things like capes and wings in CoH as well.

Sorry, that was ambiguous. I don't mean to say strand-based hair is going to be impossible for every realtime game forever, I mean with no uncertainty it will be impossible for us, in a MMO, with the tools we have until technology advances pretty significantly.

Re: having a little bit of movement in the hair vs. having bouncing boobs and ass and whatever, they are not in the same ballpark of work required to implement. There will be few cases where the hair will need to collide with anything but the head and a very low detail proxy for the torso; we won't need to make special allowances for mix and match garments. There's a little low-budget game whose developers came to the same conclusions on both of these topics that you might have heard of:

https://www.injustice.com/

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*munches popcorn while

*munches popcorn while impatiently waiting for the Character Creator itself to debut*

I'm done speculating, suggesting, or supposing. Unless something really remarkable pops up in front of me (like the animation tutorial video for skipping), I'm content to wait on the final product and see how it goes.

So, um, is it ready yet? :-)

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

*munches popcorn while impatiently waiting for the Character Creator itself to debut*

I'm done speculating, suggesting, or supposing. Unless something really remarkable pops up in front of me (like the animation tutorial video for skipping), I'm content to wait on the final product and see how it goes.

So, um, is it ready yet? :-)

Yeah after several years the idle quibbling about what the art Devs here are either too restricted or too narrow-sighted to attempt in this game vis-a-vis body model physics is in fact starting to get old. It's been like CoT's version of debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Obviously some Devs (like the modders for games like Skyrim and Fallout 4 who've had breast jiggle working with costumes for years) simply have more vision or leeway to try for new groundbreaking things than others.

Clearly what's actually more important for us at this point is how the overall Avatar Builder is coming along. We know the Devs intended to get the standalone Avatar Builder launched well before the actual main game. Since the Devs have now targeted CoT to be out around the end of 2018 it would seem that open beta testing for the Avatar Builder should not be -that- far way.

With third party people like those 3DS team folks who are (I think today) releasing what will likely be a negative video against MWM for what I'm guessing will be the "apparent lack of progress" in releasing anything it's all that more important than ever that we get at least some release version of the Avatar Builder ASAP, even if it's still a beta test version.

TBH, things like this silly thread have only been allowed to rage because rabid future players like myself have nothing better to do in relation to this game than to debate about it in a vacuum. If we finally had something tangible to sink our collective teeth into (like the Avatar Builder for instance) I suspect threads like this would finally die the True Death instead of the weird zombie-voodoo thing that keeps this thread popping back up every few months.

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That makes me wonder why they

That makes me wonder why they even went to the new engine to slow everything down, if they weren't going to go for such things.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

That makes me wonder why they even went to the new engine to slow everything down, if they weren't going to go for such things.

I would figure options that weren't available with the previous engine. For me, that would be the only reason to change. If you can do everything programming-wise you could before with the old engine, why switch in the first place? And while maybe those options won't necessarily be available at launch, having the ability to potentially add them or to them later on is a pretty solid reason, in my opinion. That being said, I'm not a dev and it's purely guess-work on my part.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
That makes me wonder why they even went to the new engine to slow everything down, if they weren't going to go for such things.
I would figure options that weren't available with the previous engine. For me, that would be the only reason to change. If you can do everything programming-wise you could before with the old engine, why switch in the first place? And while maybe those options won't necessarily be available at launch, having the ability to potentially add them or to them later on is a pretty solid reason, in my opinion. That being said, I'm not a dev and it's purely guess-work on my part.

I have vague memories of them says that that was the primary reason for switching to UE4, significantly expanded capabilities.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

That makes me wonder why they even went to the new engine to slow everything down, if they weren't going to go for such things.

UE3 was just as capable of jiggle physics as UE4, so switching in order to gain them would have been silly. (Indeed, we have examples of jiggle physics within Unreal going back to the original version of the engine)

UE4 offers better handling of many features, expanded handling of others, and new capabilities which UE3 simply lacked. Then there is the performance handling improvement and world size difference. With UE3, we were looking at a signficantly smaller world, with the playable area only being 18 square km. With UE4, the playable area for launch alone is nearly 40. That alone would have been worth it, allowing us to have a more open feel to the world than what we would have had otherwise.

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I've given it some thought,

I've given it some thought, and I don't think my computer can handle the amount of jiggle needed for my character to look realistic. I want her to be plump. Her tummy jiggles as much as her boobs. Roly-poly, no hard anything on her.

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KhioneNorthstar wrote:
KhioneNorthstar wrote:

I've given it some thought, and I don't think my computer can handle the amount of jiggle needed for my character to look realistic. I want her to be plump. Her tummy jiggles as much as her boobs. Roly-poly, no hard anything on her.

I always love the continued confirmation that "no one cares about body jiggle" every time this thread gets necro'd. ;)

Anyway I can only tell you that the software technology to do (at least in abstract) what you're suggesting DOES in fact exist today in 2017. We already know many games have at least attempted (to various degrees of debatable success) breast jiggle by itself as a sort of "baby step" towards full body jiggle.

Now having said that a person could ask, "Would attempting to implement the full body jiggle as you're suggesting be practical in a MMORPG in 2017?" Even I would have to sadly concede that's probably not feasible at this point. In fact as I've said (many times) before it might be another 5-10 years before the general state of technology reaches the point where full body jiggle for player character models will be possible/practical for typical MMOs.

I still advocate that in the "near term" (perhaps 2-5 years) games like CoT could "perfect" reasonable representations of breast jiggle (again) as a baby step towards implementing efficient jiggle physics for an entire body model. I will forever be amused at the people who disagree with me on that assessment (for whatever reasons) but I guess there will always people willing to stand on the proverbial beach and claim that they can hold back the enviable tsunami of progress.

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KhioneNorthstar wrote:
KhioneNorthstar wrote:

I've given it some thought, and I don't think my computer can handle the amount of jiggle needed for my character to look realistic. I want her to be plump. Her tummy jiggles as much as her boobs. Roly-poly, no hard anything on her.

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I've never heard from a gamer

I've never heard from a gamer, "I stayed away from that game because of jiggle physics" I have however heard people say "Jiggle physics? Gotta check this game out!"

So obviously, jiggle physics is better for the game than not.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I've never heard from a gamer, "I stayed away from that game because of jiggle physics" I have however heard people say "Jiggle physics? Gotta check this game out!"
So obviously, jiggle physics is better for the game than not.

I know several women who were turned off by seeing female breast jiggle ridiculously in some games that they wouldn't even try them.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I've never heard from a gamer, "I stayed away from that game because of jiggle physics" I have however heard people say "Jiggle physics? Gotta check this game out!"
So obviously, jiggle physics is better for the game than not.
I know several women who were turned off by seeing female breast jiggle ridiculously in some games that they wouldn't even try them.

And there it is... once again (for about the 100th time) the operative word is ridiculous degrees of jiggle.

No one who has EVER advocated for breast jiggle in CoT has ever seriously said they wanted it to be of a "ridiculous" nature. We've always said we wanted it to be subtle and/or reasonable. Just because most OTHER games that have tried this thus far have decided to implement it in a stupidly ridiculous manner does NOT mean that CoT had to do it that exact same way.

Look, I get that you've basically decided for the time being to not even try for a reasonable level of breast jiggle in CoT (to its unfortunate loss) but could you at least for once acknowledge that you actually UNDERSTAND what we've wanted from this all along. We don't want a type of jiggle that would look awful or silly. We don't want CoT to be known for "bad" things. We'd want you to step up to the plate and for once deliver a realistically mature implementation. Do you actually understand the difference between "stupid" levels of jiggle and "reasonable" levels of jiggle? That's all I need from you at this point.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I've never heard from a gamer, "I stayed away from that game because of jiggle physics" I have however heard people say "Jiggle physics? Gotta check this game out!"
So obviously, jiggle physics is better for the game than not.
I know several women who were turned off by seeing female breast jiggle ridiculously in some games that they wouldn't even try them.

I can honestly live without any amount of jiggle in CoT, and I'm male, not at all prudish, and a big fan of the jiggly parts in general. If it takes any amount of resources to make "jiggle physics" happen, I say use them on something more important and less controversial. The last thing I want is for THAT to be the main attraction that pulls in people to CoT, the jiggles.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I can honestly live without any amount of jiggle in CoT, and I'm male, not at all prudish, and a big fan of the jiggly parts in general. If it takes any amount of resources to make "jiggle physics" happen, I say use them on something more important and less controversial. The last thing I want is for THAT to be the main attraction that pulls in people to CoT, the jiggles.

Good F%&KING God Radiac we've already heard the "Please don't waste resources on feature X because I PERSONALLY don't think it's important" argument about a fricken million times now. You don't have to keep saying that over and over and over again since the Devs have basically ALREADY agreed to cave into YOUR little desires to ruin other peoples wishes for this game. Happy now?

I just want a Dev to tell us that they actually understand that we've never asked for RIDICULOUS amounts of breast jiggle in this game. I want a Dev to literally say, "We realize you guys wanted a perfectly reasonable and non-awful cosmetic feature yet WE STILL found a way to rationalize why we are NOT going to give it to you." If someone like Tannim could actually do that I might ascribe more testicular fortitude to him and the other Devs than I do now for being willing to admit their failure on this issue in such open terms.

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The devs don't have to

The devs don't have to rationalize anything to anyone. It's their call and they're just not doing the jiggle physics, in any amount, for reasons which I think are ultimately probably wise. As far as I can tell, nobody is really owed an apology for that, or any explanation that proves their position correct, or even any validation that the request was not unreasonable in the first place. Request denied. It's as simple as that.

I think it's easy to see the problem with this. Too much jiggle is dangerous and might cause problems. Too little is basically unnoticeable and thus not really any different from not having jiggle at all, thus it's not worth the effort in the first place, no matter how little effort it would actually be. Even if you assume that there exists a happy medium somewhere between those extremes, that will be a thing you have to tweak the game a few times to actually find and as such you're playtesting the jiggle now when you could be worrying about something more important, like, say, ANYTHING else. Even if you think you've found the sweet spot, you might STILL get complaints later. You can't win this game, if you're MWM. It's not worth it. Not from a risk/reward standpoint, not from a bang for the buck standpoint. People who like jiggle can live without it. It's a nice extra to have, maybe. But those people are not apt to complain very much when they get an otherwise awesome game that doesn't have that feature. People who think it's too naughty or pornographic WILL complain, even if the rest of the game is the best thing ever. This alone makes it a bad proposition, to me.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Radiac wrote:
I can honestly live without any amount of jiggle in CoT, and I'm male, not at all prudish, and a big fan of the jiggly parts in general. If it takes any amount of resources to make "jiggle physics" happen, I say use them on something more important and less controversial. The last thing I want is for THAT to be the main attraction that pulls in people to CoT, the jiggles.
Good F%&KING God Radiac we've already heard the "Please don't waste resources on feature X because I PERSONALLY don't think it's important" argument about a fricken million times now. You don't have to keep saying that over and over and over again since the Devs have basically ALREADY agreed to cave into YOUR little desires to ruin other peoples wishes for this game. Happy now?
I just want a Dev to tell us that they actually understand that we've never asked for RIDICULOUS amounts of breast jiggle in this game. I want a Dev to literally say, "We realize you guys wanted a perfectly reasonable and non-awful cosmetic feature yet WE STILL found a way to rationalize why we are NOT going to give it to you." If someone like Tannim could actually do that I might ascribe more testicular fortitude to him and the other Devs than I do now for being willing to admit their failure on this issue in such open terms.

Counterpoint:
We've heard your argument about a million times too, yet you continue to post about it?

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I hope after months of this

I hope after months of this that we could maybe not "go there" again? Rehash is old hash.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The devs don't have to rationalize anything to anyone. It's their call and they're just not doing the jiggle physics, in any amount, for reasons which I think are ultimately probably wise. As far as I can tell, nobody is really owed an apology for that, or any explanation that proves their position correct, or even any validation that the request was not unreasonable in the first place. Request denied. It's as simple as that.
I think it's easy to see the problem with this. Too much jiggle is dangerous and might cause problems. Too little is basically unnoticeable and thus not really any different from not having jiggle at all, thus it's not worth the effort in the first place, no matter how little effort it would actually be. Even if you assume that there exists a happy medium somewhere between those extremes, that will be a thing you have to tweak the game a few times to actually find and as such you're playtesting the jiggle now when you could be worrying about something more important, like, say, ANYTHING else. Even if you think you've found the sweet spot, you might STILL get complaints later. You can't win this game, if you're MWM. It's not worth it. Not from a risk/reward standpoint, not from a bang for the buck standpoint. People who like jiggle can live without it. It's a nice extra to have, maybe. But those people are not apt to complain very much when they get an otherwise awesome game that doesn't have that feature. People who think it's too naughty or pornographic WILL complain, even if the rest of the game is the best thing ever. This alone makes it a bad proposition, to me.

Stop handwaving the same tired rhetoric. If the Devs actually felt the same way about you in terms of "not wasting time on marginal cosmetic items" the costume creator would probably only have a dozen costume items and only three body sliders. Your points here are taken and ignored as always. At least I'm posting NEW things here today - I'm pretty sure you're just cut-n-pasting the same clap-trap you've posted a hundred times before...

This thread has been alive for years, necro-posted from the grave about a dozen times, and is almost up to 600 individual posts. I would logically suggest that if the Devs could actually bring themselves to explain/apologize (in a non pandering way) why they seem to think all we wanted from this is some kind hyper-bouncy fan-fest then I'll bet you at least one shiny quatloo that the chances of this thread getting necro'd again will drop from around 90% to maybe 10-20%. Sounds good to me, what about you?

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

We've heard your argument about a million times too, yet you continue to post about it?

You are apparently not bothering to read my posts today. If you have no problem blindly responding to other people's posts and looking silly because of it that's your problem, not mine.

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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

I hope after months of this that we could maybe not "go there" again? Rehash is old hash.

I keep trying to quit this thread myself but someone else always decides to necro it.
Makes you wonder about the legitimate desire for this after all...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Makes you wonder about the legitimate desire for this after all...

Nope, can't say that it does.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Makes you wonder about the legitimate desire for this after all...
Nope, can't say that it does.

Let me in on another thread suggesting a feature for the game that, again, has lasted for years, been necro'd many times (never by me BTW) and is this long. I'll wait...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Makes you wonder about the legitimate desire for this after all...
Nope, can't say that it does.
Let me in on another thread suggesting a feature for the game that, again, has lasted for years, been necro'd many times (never by me BTW) and is this long. I'll wait...

Wait all you want. I was legitimately answering your question. So, I'll re-iterate; I don't want or care to have a specific type of jiggle nor does this change my mind/want/desire/outlook/opinion/perspective.

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To be fair, Lothic, there are

To be fair, Lothic, there are women gamers who see any amount of jiggle as ridiculous when hair or cloth can't be handled properly over getting jiggle into a game.

Not a single example provided in this thread appealed to my wife, sister in law, niece, a friend's wife, or a friend's gf when I showed them. Admittedly it is a small sample size, but they each have varying degrees of gaming preference (including none for one!) so it was a decent cross section of typical viewing audience.

And having communicated with female gamers in the past over the subject, I beleive you'll find that their opinions, while diverse, the majority leans toward not having it represented rather than having it.

Basically, it is something done by typically male develoeprs to appeal to a male audience. It seems to hold little interest for female gamers at large and can even turn them away. What seems to matter more to them is how the female character is portrayed, the story of the game, and of course, the game play itself.

And this is the last I'll post on this subject. As far as I'm concerned the matter is moot.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

To be fair, Lothic, there are women gamers who see any amount of jiggle as ridiculous when hair or cloth can't be handled properly over getting jiggle into a game.
Not a single example provided in this thread appealed to my wife, sister in law, niece, a friend's wife, or a friend's gf when I showed them. Admittedly it is a small sample size, but they each have varying degrees of gaming preference (including none for one!) so it was a decent cross section of typical viewing audience.
And having communicated with female gamers in the past over the subject, I beleive you'll find that their opinions, while diverse, the majority leans toward not having it represented rather than having it.
Basically, it is something done by typically male develoeprs to appeal to a male audience. It seems to hold little interest for female gamers at large and can even turn them away. What seems to matter more to them is how the female character is portrayed, the story of the game, and of course, the game play itself.
And this is the last I'll post on this subject. As far as I'm concerned the matter is moot.

Thank you. At least you've clearly demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea what's been talked about here for years. Obviously you still think all we want here is hyper-bouncy fanservice and don't seem to have any idea between between what was suggested here and the unfortunate "ridiculous" examples from other games.

I'm sorry your views have been swayed by a few "no" votes. I'm sure I could find 4 or 5 "yes" votes from other female friends/family if I wanted to waste a few minutes for an unscientific survey of my own. But at least we now have some insight into your personal rigidity about how you handle various topics and what to (sadly) expect from this game in the future. I suppose there'll always be a chance for some common sense on this topic in another game.

P.S. Talk to you about this the next time this thread is necro'd (or another one gets started if this thread ever gets locked).

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I've never heard from a gamer, "I stayed away from that game because of jiggle physics" I have however heard people say "Jiggle physics? Gotta check this game out!"
So obviously, jiggle physics is better for the game than not.
I know several women who were turned off by seeing female breast jiggle ridiculously in some games that they wouldn't even try them.

the question becomes then, would you lose more females over some jiggle or gain more males to account for any females lost. My guess, based on numbers ( http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/ ) it likely wouldn't hurt the game at all to have jiggle physics.

Now, could CoT be the MMO that skews the norm as WoW (less than usual numbers) and TOR (more than usual numbers) did? Possibly. Doubtful though. So, there's just something to consider when, "What all can we do to make sure people check out this game." Though, with EVE Online being 96% male, that might mean it skews the sci-fi numbers too.

That doesn't mean, do it. However, the idea of "Don't do it because some might not care for it." seems to be a terrible idea, in the fact that numbers suggest many who would likely play the game, likely won't care either.

Personally, I've seen it done. Never saw it as totally impressive, but I recall it being asked for on CoH forums.

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Sigh.

Sigh.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Personally, I've seen it done. Never saw it as totally impressive, but I recall it being asked for on CoH forums.

Ironically I'm actually trying to challenge the Devs of this game to be among the first to implement breast jiggle "correctly" yet they don't seem to be up to the challenge. All's the pity... mediocrity is easier after all.

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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

Sigh.

Yep all the negativity against reasonable additions to the game does get tiresome from time to time. *shrugs*

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

To be fair, Lothic, there are women gamers who see any amount of jiggle as ridiculous when hair or cloth can't be handled properly over getting jiggle into a game.
Not a single example provided in this thread appealed to my wife, sister in law, niece, a friend's wife, or a friend's gf when I showed them. Admittedly it is a small sample size, but they each have varying degrees of gaming preference (including none for one!) so it was a decent cross section of typical viewing audience.
And having communicated with female gamers in the past over the subject, I beleive you'll find that their opinions, while diverse, the majority leans toward not having it represented rather than having it.
Basically, it is something done by typically male develoeprs to appeal to a male audience. It seems to hold little interest for female gamers at large and can even turn them away. What seems to matter more to them is how the female character is portrayed, the story of the game, and of course, the game play itself.
And this is the last I'll post on this subject. As far as I'm concerned the matter is moot.

I can then go to females who like it to don't care either way. So, the small sample sizes could just be a matter of showing who people hang out with. The repressed and stuck up versus the laid back and able to take the silly.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Personally, I've seen it done. Never saw it as totally impressive, but I recall it being asked for on CoH forums.
Ironically I'm actually trying to challenge the Devs of this game to be among the first to implement breast jiggle "correctly" yet they don't seem to be up to the challenge. All's the pity... mediocrity is easier after all.

I thought that fight was lost on day one of the KS :p The only risk they've seemed to be willing to do is delaying the release by upgrading to the new engine.

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Huckleberry wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU6ZomlIoRc

In all this talk about breasts Huckleberry's quite impressive video has been completely overlooked. Myself, I have always been of the opinion that natural body movement is a desirable element for a MMORPG, and natural body movement includes flexible parts responding to physics in a natural way. I realize this is far more difficult to program than the simple concept would suggest, but then, natural movement is a far more complex phenomenon than most people realize to begin with, so it's not surprising the issue very quickly moves from the science/technology column into the social values/morals column.

Some people hate reality. The rest of us are looking forward to the day these games become more realistic in their portrayal of both normal features and fantastical features. The same physics that would allow natural breast movement would allow natural muscle flexing, natural depression in soft tissue in response to impact, and natural recoil when rebounding from forward impact into a barrier. It is the same physics that controls everything from seductive dance moves to collapsing lungs in a dragon when hit by a spear.

Maybe it's not possible yet, but I have a feeling we have already reached the "any day now" stage of development.

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Cobalt Azurean
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On the topic of realism,

On the topic of realism, Massively just posted an article inquiring to their subscriber-base about how much realism is too much realism, if there is such a thing, etc: http://massivelyop.com/2017/06/23/the-daily-grind-how-much-realism-is-too-much-in-an-mmorpg/

Airhead
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Necroposting here is

Necroposting here is inevitable. Flaccidity followed by rigor mortis undone by decomposition.

"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin
"One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon

Brand X
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A little jiggle and hair flow

A little jiggle and hair flow? That's okay realism.

Having to make sure you eat and count the calories? That is boredom.

Lothic
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Brand X wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

On the topic of realism, Massively just posted an article inquiring to their subscriber-base about how much realism is too much realism, if there is such a thing, etc: http://massivelyop.com/2017/06/23/the-daily-grind-how-much-realism-is-too-much-in-an-mmorpg/

Brand X wrote:

A little jiggle and hair flow? That's okay realism.
Having to make sure you eat and count the calories? That is boredom.

I think the key to "how much realism is too much" is whether or not the player has to actively (or periodically) do something about it or not. I get that it's "realisitic" that a character's intake of calories, fat, and salt might affect his/her stats but for many people that's a "real life" game that people don't like to play much less simulating that in a game.

Natural body physics (if once again handled in a maturely reasonable way that people like Tannim in particular don't seem to have a working concept of) would be the kind of realism that would simply exist in the game without players having to do anything about it. Realism that takes the form of "improved cosmetic details" don't seem to be the kind that most people would call unwelcomed, especially when one considers that improving body model graphics is something that virtually every new computer game has been collectively involved with for the last 40+ years. Arbitrarily standing in the way of that constant improvement seems short-sighted at best and foolish at worst.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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My only personal concern

My only personal concern would be the amount of graphics draw on my video card/CPU, and everyone else's, and the server. The jiggle doesn't bother me, I'm fine without it too, I just don't want it to limit the number of objects per instance or my FPS rate in any meaningful way.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I was wanting to post another

I was wanting to post another jiggly video, but last time a decent conversation broke out and ruined the ride.
How am i supposed to pull a mild troll when you guys have intelligent commentary?

Ah well, a toast to Flesh Forge and the promise of cleavage. COT is still the best!

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<----Still the perkiest beast

<----Still the perkiest beast of them all!

Want a dance song that will get stuck in your head all day?This is my jam!

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