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Jiggle Physics: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

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Izzy
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Jiggle Physics: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

How do you feel about Jiggle Physics?

Whats do you think is appropriate (list examples), and whats not (list examples).

Ex: It could be a Jiggle Santa Belly and such..

Use your imagination.

;)

Darth Fez
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Requires jiggle physics.

Requires jiggle physics.

Everything else... meh.

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A little bit of bounce when

A little bit of bounce when walking can add i bit of realism. Neverwinter Nights, despite its dated at launch engine, did provide for this level of jiggle. It was also smart enough to not jiggle while in heavy armor.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Requires jiggle physics.
Everything else... meh.

LOL -- brilliant!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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First off I'm totally in

First off I'm totally in favor of "jiggle physics" for big jello-type blobs. Hami would've been so much cooler if jumping into him would've made his surface quiver like a huge bowl of jello. As for the more traditional examples of "jiggle physics" (vis-a-vis human anatomy) I'm always in favor of as much realism as possible in games like these. But like with most things moderation is the key to success here.

I'm fully aware that there are some games out there (usually of the Japanese anime variety) which exaggerate the slightest female body movement into tidal waves (tsunamis?) of continuous mammary motion which might be fun for your average 12 year old male to watch but I would hardly call reasonable. On the other hand allowing for some degree of natural jiggle would be better than absolutely no movement at all.

In a perfect world we would have a "jiggle slider" in the costume creator that would allow players to have direct control over how much "jiggliness" they wanted depending on what they were wearing. As syntaxerror37 pointed out the difference between wearing a bikini top and plate chest armor should make a difference to the amount of jiggle that could happen. Unfortunately as we all know if the game literally had a "jiggle slider" there would be all sorts of immature jokes about it and most people would slide it over to the max setting regardless just to have fun with it. In light of that I'd settle for the Devs providing for a hardwired moderate/slight amount of jiggle in these cases - enough to be noticed but not enough to be totally distracting.

To be clear I don't think it's an absolute necessity for there to be ANY jiggle physics in CoT, especially if it somehow makes having various costume options too hard to implement. But if it can be worked in without too much impact to other development then yes having moderate jiggle would be nice to have.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

into tidal waves (tsunamis?) of continuous mammary motion

As we liked to say, back in the day, 'dual independent suspension'. In the interest of keeping things even between the sexes, does that mean that those with the appropriate anatomy ought to get a 'pec flex' emote?

I've done a double-take on a few occasions because I saw metal armor jiggle.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

In the interest of keeping things even between the sexes, does that mean that those with the appropriate anatomy ought to get a 'pec flex' emote?

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't even have a problem with a "package slider" either, assuming (once again) some kind of utopian reality where you wouldn't have 99.9% of the playerbase simply set it at the max setting and make constant stupid 3rd grade jokes about it.

Darth Fez wrote:

I've done a double-take on a few occasions because I saw metal armor jiggle.

Maybe (like the Neverwinter Nights example) the costume items in CoT could be internally flagged to let the client know whether or not it should allow jiggle motion to show through or not. This would keep obvious items such as plate armor from jiggling.

This is why I half-heartedly suggested the "jiggle slider" so that players could decide for themselves if what they were wearing was loose enough to allow jiggles to show through. Unfortunately as I mentioned I don't think most players would use such a slider in a "mature" way. *shrugs*

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It should be present where it

It should be present where it enhances the game and can't be too badly abused. I'm a heterosexual man. I LOVE breasts. But I don't want to see every moron's wet dream running around. That isn't what CoH was about and it shouldn't be what CoT is about.

Honestly, I think that all goes without saying.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Spandex, it's a privilege,

Spandex, it's a privilege, not a right.

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Jiggle Physics for Fat

Jiggle Physics for Fat characters! Male and Female if it has the mass it has the jiggle.

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Funny, I saw this image

Funny, I saw this image yesterday.

I don't think jiggle physics are worth the time investment to bother with. I imagine parts clipping through clothing would be a problem.

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Look at that blubber fly.

Look at that blubber fly.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I don't think jiggle physics are worth the time investment to bother with. I imagine parts clipping through clothing would be a problem.

Your clip was exactly the kind of thing I was referring to when I was talking about extreme "anime styled jiggle" in my earlier post.

I'd agree that if CoT tried to give us that much "mammary motion" it would probably cause a huge amount of costume clipping and it wouldn't be worth the effort. But if it was toned way down to a reasonable degree of jiggliness (like maybe only 10% as much bounce as your clip shows) then it would be far more likely to be doable without too many clipping problems. In the long run a relatively tiny (or at least non-hyperbolic) amount of female jiggle would be nice to have and be at the very least more realistic than no motion at all.

RottenLuck wrote:

Look at that blubber fly.

I suspect in some future we'll be able to play games where we'll be able to make Homer-styled characters very easily. I just think it's safe to assume the priority for getting that specific kind of belly jiggle working is far lower than getting a good solution for female chest motion.

I realize it might be somewhat unfair to say that one kind of jiggle is more important than another. But I'm quite sure given the choice having nicely bouncing boobies would be voted on by the playerbase long before having nicely bouncing bellies. Just a guess...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I agree, of course the thread

I agree, of course the thread is the Good, bad, and Ugly. So someone needs to point out how Jiggle affects more than mammary glands.

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I wouldn't put this anywhere

I wouldn't put this anywhere near the top of my priority list, but if it were implemented I'd like to see something about the level of the most recent Tomb Raider game, where the only motion was a slight one, and only after an abrupt movement -- wholly appropriate given the clothes Lara was wearing. I'd also lobby for gender equality on this effect.

If there were to be a slider in the Avatar Builder that went all the way to Puerile, I would hope for a per-player override setting that could reduce or turn off the effect in other players' characters, similar to the setting we had for others' toggle visual effects.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'm with most here it seems.

I'm with most here it seems. Sure Jiggle alright but not at the top of the list of wants, and needs.

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

I'm with most here it seems. Sure Jiggle alright but not at the top of the list of wants, and needs.

Cinnder wrote:

I wouldn't put this anywhere near the top of my priority list, but if it were implemented I'd like to see something about the level of the most recent Tomb Raider game, where the only motion was a slight one, and only after an abrupt movement -- wholly appropriate given the clothes Lara was wearing. I'd also lobby for gender equality on this effect.

This in a nutshell. Any jiggliness (male or female) should be enough to be noticeable but not overtly distracting or comical. This should equally apply to both male and female belly jiggle when/if that ever gets implemented in games like this. Again not a necessity but a "nice to have".

Cinnder wrote:

If there were to be a slider in the Avatar Builder that went all the way to Puerile, I would hope for a per-player override setting that could reduce or turn off the effect in other players' characters, similar to the setting we had for others' toggle visual effects.

The idea of giving players the means to turn off (or self-censor) how other people look in game has often been discussed in the context of whether or not the game should allow people to wear very naughty/nude/sexy clothing. The theory goes that players in general should have as much freedom as they want and it would be up those players who don't want to see that stuff to manually censor their own clients to "filter" out the questionable items. I suppose excessive amounts of "jiggle" could also be included in this self-censoring filter. Of course this relies on the premise that it would be possible (or fully kid safe) to self censor your own client. We all know that kids tend to be pretty capable of defeating "parental controls" and see whatever they want to anyway.

At any rate I reluctantly suspect it would end up being far easier for the Devs to hardwire specific degrees of moderate jiggle (like your Tomb Raider example) than to let people have full manual control over it. Not only would it greatly mitigate the amount of possible abusive "silliness" but it would probably help the Devs better regulate any cases of costume clippage. My idea of having a workable "jiggle slider" was admittedly more a Holy Grail to wish for than a near-term practical solution to this issue.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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For a game that aims to be

For a game that aims to be rated T / 12, I feel that the question of self-censorship answers itself. If any option is extreme enough that it requires such a measure to be introduced to the game, it will almost certainly be better to exclude that feature or tone it down so that self-censorship is not necessary. It is difficult to interpret any excessive 'jiggle' to be anything other than fan service.

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I may be alone on this but ..

I may be alone on this but ...

I would like to add, from personal experience, too much emphasis on minor (moving) details may cause motion sickness. Such as grass constantly swaying in the wind. It looks nice and realistic, but it's sickening after awhile.

Options to disable please.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

At any rate I reluctantly suspect it would end up being far easier for the Devs to hardwire specific degrees of moderate jiggle (like your Tomb Raider example) than to let people have full manual control over it. Not only would it greatly mitigate the amount of possible abusive "silliness" but it would probably help the Devs better regulate any cases of costume clippage.

Good point. 2 birds, 1 stone and all that. I just don't want to feel like I'm playing a certain other MMO that NCSoft put out just after closing CoX...

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I may be alone on this but ...
I would like to add, from personal experience, too much emphasis on minor (moving) details may cause motion sickness. Such as grass constantly swaying in the wind. It looks nice and realistic, but it's sickening after awhile.
Options to disable please.

I knew someone a few years ago who only had to peek at any average video game for like 10 or 20 seconds before he'd get super-queezy. Felt real bad for him because otherwise he'd probably love to play all sorts of games.

That being said I think most games from now on will only tend to get more and more realistic as far as the "minor moving" details go. Sure maybe some of them will offer ways to turn off some of those details, but eventually I think they'll become like color TVs in that they don't even make black-n-white TVs anymore.

Maybe part of the problem has to do with issues with the Uncanny Valley. As time goes on the "realism" of some of these details will eventually become so well-rendered that they may become more acceptable and you'll be able to tolerate them better. Just an idea at any rate. *shrugs*

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Or maybe it's somewhat

Or maybe it's somewhat related to the problems with 3D?

http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/why-3d-doesnt-work-and-never-will-case-closed
(Try to ignore the argumentative language and just look at the technical info.)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I wouldn't rule out it being

I wouldn't rule out it being a composition of things. Lighting, colors, sounds, music, camera movement, movement in general, 3D.

I religiously played the Crash Bandicoot and the Spyro the Dragon Playstation 1 game series growing up. Since the release of the Playstation 2 series, I can't handle playing any of them for a long period of time. About once a year I attempt to play them again, they still make me nauseous (and I play twitch-heavy MMOs such as SMITE nowadays without an issue).

Crash Twinsanity really highlighted the damaging effects of overdone bounce for me. Small but common features, such as grass, wumpa fruit, nitro crates, and some UI features all had some bounce to them. Other aspects were an issue as well, but bounce was the number one issue for me. Even standing idle while a portion of the objects on the screen were bouncing was too much.

I suppose you could say, bounce indicates movement. If things are bouncing and progress is not made to match that (whether that be distance, size, or sound) it can perhaps cause motion sickness. Just my own theory.

Remember when the "Sonic" line was first released in City of Heroes? Trolls running around granting everyone those buffs with the spinning animations? (hurls) Thankfully it was toned down a bit later.

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I recall once actually

I recall once actually quitting a Synapse TF midway (NEVER EVER DO I QUIT a TF, btw, even if its just 2 people left), because the Bright glare from a Sonic Resonance (Sonic Dispersion Shield i think it was called) was really starting to shoot pain strain into my brain. :P
From then on, i would always go for a darker tone, whenever i would roll my own Sonic toon. :/

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Lol then you would of hated

Lol then you would of hated me Izzy I made my sonic shields bright yellow

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

Lol then you would of hated me Izzy I made my sonic shields bright yellow

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

Funny, I saw this image yesterday.
I don't think jiggle physics are worth the time investment to bother with. I imagine parts clipping through clothing would be a problem.

I agree, I don't think it's worth the time.

If insisted upon, i'd be okay with little bit of jiggle, maybe a little less than the OP, but not much.

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Folly wrote:
Folly wrote:

I would like to add, from personal experience, too much emphasis on minor (moving) details may cause motion sickness. Such as grass constantly swaying in the wind. It looks nice and realistic, but it's sickening after awhile.

This is usually included in some kind of ground clutter option, so that people can turn it down or off to improve performance.

Constantly swaying grass gets on my nerves. Seriously, it can't be that difficult to put in some variation to simulate the odd breeze or something. Not to give this example too much weight, but at least such things should not be much of a problem in Titan City. Presumably the city pays people to regularly mow the lawns.

I've never had motion sickness problems with grass. Now, swaying trees...

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I agree, I don't think it's worth the time.
If insisted upon, i'd be okay with little bit of jiggle, maybe a little less than the OP, but not much.

Again I'd also agree that having hyperbolic versions of jiggle physics which are just extremely comical examples of anime-esque fanservice would not be acceptable or worth the effort to have in CoT.

I'd mainly be interested in having some small amount of "realistic" jiggles (in both males and females) the same way I'd be interested in having animated hair, capes, tails and/or clothing. Details like these have tended to improve the overall visual quality of games over the years – otherwise we'd all still be playing games with characters that looked like Pac-Man.

Darth Fez wrote:

Folly wrote:
I would like to add, from personal experience, too much emphasis on minor (moving) details may cause motion sickness. Such as grass constantly swaying in the wind. It looks nice and realistic, but it's sickening after awhile.
This is usually included in some kind of ground clutter option, so that people can turn it down or off to improve performance.
Constantly swaying grass gets on my nerves. Seriously, it can't be that difficult to put in some variation to simulate the odd breeze or something. Not to give this example too much weight, but at least such things should not be much of a problem in Titan City. Presumably the city pays people to regularly mow the lawns.
I've never had motion sickness problems with grass. Now, swaying trees...

While I personally don't get motion sickness while playing games I will admit that I do often find it annoying to see constantly cyclic "wind motion" patterns in grass or trees. I even find it annoying when they apply that same kind of constant swaying motion effect to player characters who are just otherwise supposed to be standing completely (or at least relatively) still.

The premise the Devs are going for is clear - things that are moving are more "life-like" than things that are not moving. But I think where the implementation of that theory fails in games is when they lock things like swaying grass into single, never-changing patterns. This is a good example of the Uncanny Valley I mentioned before: in this case grass that sways in a single cyclic pattern is actually WORSE looking than either grass that doesn't move at all OR grass that might move in constantly random/changing patterns like it actually does in nature.

Software technology is always advancing but it has to push through these weird cases where some of its attempts at better realism are actually worse looking than previous generations of games. Yes grass that sways in the wind is fundamentally more "natural" but it's only completely natural looking when it varies its movement in random ways. Until software technology in general can move past relying on pre-defined hardwired patterns for this kind of motion it'll never look quite "right".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Just a little bounce is all I

Just a little bounce is all I want, and even then I can live without it. Personally some hair bounce would be more important, since I am going to spend most of the game looking at the back of my characters anyway.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

... I am going to spend most of the game looking at the back of my characters anyway.

:O

you want Jiggle Physics in the back? ;)

or, jiggle physics when Come Get Sum emote animates? :D

*sorry ladies, i bored. :(

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I did say specifically "hair

I did say specifically "hair bounce" .

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

you want Jiggle Physics in the back? ;)
or, jiggle physics when Come Get Sum emote animates? :D
*sorry ladies, i bored. :(

My only question would be did she improvise that move or did her wrestling script specifically tell her to do that right at that moment... j/k ;)

For what it’s worth we know that UE4 is a far more capable/flexible system than CoH's graphics engine ever was. I have no idea if the Devs of CoT will put much effort into the various types of "jiggle" we've mentioned here, but ultimately I think it will at least be a realistic possibility for some of this to finally happen, even if it has to be improvements that get worked into game after it launches.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Izzy wrote:
you want Jiggle Physics in the back? ;)
or, jiggle physics when Come Get Sum emote animates? :D
*sorry ladies, i bored. :(

My only question would be did she improvise that move or did her wrestling script specifically tell her to do that right at that moment... j/k ;)

You know no professional wrestler is ever allowed to go off their pre written script under any circumstances! (Although since they were written several hundred years ago with each specific wrestling personality in mind, it would be more fair to call them prophesies.)

J

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :)

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http://youtu.be/n9PeIdOvvA4

http://youtu.be/n9PeIdOvvA4

........ what is going on in south korea....... just....... what.

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masterghostartist wrote:
masterghostartist wrote:

http://youtu.be/n9PeIdOvvA4
........ what is going on in south korea....... just....... what.

Obviously many games in South Korea have a slightly different set of... priorities than many western games do. What they provide in the "jiggle arena" is not necessarily bad/wrong, it's just maybe a little over-the-top towards being overt fanservice. If CoT could take lessons from them and perhaps tone it down just a little I think we'd have some cool options to play with.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm going to guess that you

I'm going to guess that you've never heard of the Dead or Alive series of games, in particular "Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball".

The whole point of that game was to see bouncing boobs in bikinis.

/NTTAWWT

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I'm offended, sir! DOA was a

I'm offended, sir! DOA was a true, exacting and precise volleyball simulator!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Dude, I'm not saying it wasn

Dude, I'm not saying it wasn't! All I'm saying is that 90% of its physics engine was dedicated to boobage.

Which was a complete waste of a perfectly good physics engine, as far as college students were concerned.

<.< >.>

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Heh.

Heh.

I want me some ghost bees!

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Let's just say that I don't

Let's just say that I don't think we need City of Titans to go quite THIS far with the jiggle physics control(s) ...

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I'm going to guess that you've never heard of the Dead or Alive series of games, in particular "Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball".
The whole point of that game was to see bouncing boobs in bikinis.
/NTTAWWT

Darth Fez wrote:

All I'm saying is that 90% of its physics engine was dedicated to boobage.

Not sure if this was directed at me but I actually knew a guy who was so obsessed with that game that he bought a Japanese Xbox just to play the Japanese region-coded version of it on the theory (according to him) that it had even more jigglily goodness than the American version. I think that was just about the only game he got for that console so he basically spent something like $500+ dollars just for that one machine and game...

Redlynne wrote:

Let's just say that I don't think we need City of Titans to go quite THIS far with the jiggle physics control(s) ...

To be clear I wouldn't mind seeing some "boobage physics" in CoT. I'm just saying I only need them to dedicate say 30% of the physics engine to it. A touch of fanservice would be fine without totally turning CoT into the new Scarlet Blade or somesuch.

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Actually, it wasn't. Huh. I'm

Actually, it wasn't. Huh. I'm normally good about quoting posts when I'm not replying to the one directly above mine. Brain malfunction.

Also, CSB.

Lothic wrote:

To be clear I wouldn't mind seeing some "boobage physics" in CoT. I'm just saying I only need them to dedicate say 30% of the physics engine to it. A touch of fanservice would be fine without totally turning CoT into the new Scarlet Blade or somesuch.

Ha. And here I always thought that the possibilities the presented by the costumes made for plenty of fan service. If they do dedicate 30% of the physics engines to boobies we should be able to get some interesting boobage physics + bullet time going on for knockbacks.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

To be clear I wouldn't mind seeing some "boobage physics" in CoT. I'm just saying I only need them to dedicate say 30% of the physics engine to it. A touch of fanservice would be fine without totally turning CoT into the new Scarlet Blade or somesuch.

This sentiment would make sense if the game was running on a custom engine. It's not. It's running on Unreal 4. That means that the percentage dedicated to jiggle physics (whether it's cloth, hair or bouncing mammaries) has already been determined. The only remaining question is whether or not City of Titans will make use of the already existing physics or not in their character creator (ie. flexible "bones" inside of avatars, etc.).


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Lothic wrote:
To be clear I wouldn't mind seeing some "boobage physics" in CoT. I'm just saying I only need them to dedicate say 30% of the physics engine to it. A touch of fanservice would be fine without totally turning CoT into the new Scarlet Blade or somesuch.
This sentiment would make sense if the game was running on a custom engine. It's not. It's running on Unreal 4. That means that the percentage dedicated to jiggle physics (whether it's cloth, hair or bouncing mammaries) has already been determined. The only remaining question is whether or not City of Titans will make use of the already existing physics or not in their character creator (ie. flexible "bones" inside of avatars, etc.).

Yeah I was just basically pulling that "30%" number out of thin air as a relative value that would stress being far less than what Darth Fez was implying with his "90%" DoA example. I realize we're at the mercy of whatever Unreal 4 can (or can't) provide for CoT and like you said it'll be up to the Devs to see what they can accomplish with it.

I can certainly live without any kind of jiggle if they can't make it work well for whatever reason - I'm just saying if it does get implemented I hope it'd be geared in the realm of "reasonably natural" instead of "hyperbolically laughable".

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If it jiggles but there is

If it jiggles but there is nobody there to see it, does it still... uh...

Booby koan failure.

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Low priority, if done, please

Low priority, if done, please er on the side of less is better.

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I honestly don't see the

I honestly don't see the point, I can see how some players could 'lose immersion' if they didn't see boobs or booty jiggling, but for me I don't want ken doll hair! I want a natural sway and movement to the hair, not constantly either. I think it could be fairly easily done too. I don't understand much but they could even calculate 'wind timing' by randomly generating a value, then having the value reset quickly. It wouldn't put too much strain on the server of player, since it's only really occupying one bit of memory space. This could cause every object in the area of the wind to sway or jiggle. Flying and super speed would cause intense swaying or outright flailing.

That said, has any one thought of the strain and weirdness that could be cause by flight, super speed, super jumping, etc, on this proposed jiggle engine? Jeebus, the massive mobile mammaries may just fly off, or worse loop around and end up clipping through some poor girls back, like capes used to do through ones legs! I'd say a jiggle engine should be absolute last in priority, it could cause serious graphical issues and worse immersion blocks if they can't get it to work perfect every time...

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LeadWanderer wrote:
LeadWanderer wrote:

That said, has any one thought of the strain and weirdness that could be cause by flight, super speed, super jumping, etc, on this proposed jiggle engine? Jeebus, the massive mobile mammaries may just fly off, or worse loop around and end up clipping through some poor girls back, like capes used to do through ones legs! I'd say a jiggle engine should be absolute last in priority, it could cause serious graphical issues and worse immersion blocks if they can't get it to work perfect every time...

Modern graphics engines (like the Unreal Engine 4 being used by CoT) have many built-in tools and features that would make things like realistic "jiggle physics" far easier to implement than it ever would have been back in the original CoH. The Devs would of course still have to make it a priority to put it into the game in the first place and as has been mentioned many times in this thread there are no assumptions being made that it'll be included at launch or any time afterwards. It's merely a desired detail, not something that MUST be in the game as an absolute necessity.

And once again let's try to be clear here - when people generally say they want "jiggle physics" in CoT it seems far too many people think they are asking for an extremely absurd anime-styled version of it along the lines of what Folly mentioned back in post 11 of this thread:

While I can only assume there's probably a handful of fanservice-obsessed people out there who'd actually want this much overt jiggle in CoT I think it's clear from many of the responses in this thread that "reasonable" people are actually thinking of a version of it more like Izzy's orginal example:

As you can see there's a pretty big difference between a "realistic" amount of jiggle and "laughably silly" amounts. Even if the game allowed us to create humongously-sized racks for our characters there's no reason why they'd have to let them fly around like the independently orbiting braless planets you're implying they'd have to be. As long as the Devs kept ANY amount of jiggle to within senible limits there would be no worries of anything even remotely close to the immersion-breaking doom you're describing here.

Sand_Trout wrote:

Low priority, if done, please err on the side of less is better.

This is basically the tl;dr version of what I've been saying all along with this.

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out of all the ads marketing

out of all the ads marketing will make up, i can see one ad with a girl in a bikini top jogging in titan city being the most viewed one.

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Of course, I have no personal

Of course, I have no personal experience with human anatomy (or human standards of sexual attractiveness), that... animation in the above clip is just uncomfortable, if not painful, just to watch.
Therefore, I am most certainly against anything going to such extremes.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

LeadWanderer wrote:
That said, has any one thought of the strain and weirdness that could be cause by flight, super speed, super jumping, etc, on this proposed jiggle engine? Jeebus, the massive mobile mammaries may just fly off, or worse loop around and end up clipping through some poor girls back, like capes used to do through ones legs! I'd say a jiggle engine should be absolute last in priority, it could cause serious graphical issues and worse immersion blocks if they can't get it to work perfect every time...

Modern graphics engines (like the Unreal Engine 4 being used by CoT) have many built-in tools and features that would make things like realistic "jiggle physics" far easier to implement than it ever would have been back in the original CoH. The Devs would of course still have to make it a priority to put it into the game in the first place and as has been mentioned many times in this thread there are no assumptions being made that it'll be included at launch or any time afterwards. It's merely a desired detail, not something that MUST be in the game as an absolute necessity.
And once again let's try to be clear here - when people generally say they want "jiggle physics" in CoT it seems far too many people think they are asking for an extremely absurd anime-styled version of it along the lines of what Folly mentioned back in post 11 of this thread:

While I can only assume there's probably a handful of fanservice-obsessed people out there who'd actually want this much overt jiggle in CoT I think it's clear from many of the responses in this thread that "reasonable" people are actually thinking of a version of it more like Izzy's orginal example:

As you can see there's a pretty big difference between a "realistic" amount of jiggle and "laughably silly" amounts. Even if the game allowed us to create humongously-sized racks for our characters there's no reason why they'd have to let them fly around like the independently orbiting braless planets you're implying they'd have to be. As long as the Devs kept ANY amount of jiggle to within senible limits there would be no worries of anything even remotely close to the immersion-breaking doom you're describing here.
Sand_Trout wrote:
Low priority, if done, please err on the side of less is better.

This is basically the tl;dr version of what I've been saying all along with this.

I have a feeling that he might have been referring to this version

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This is making me miss what

This is making me miss what was one of my favourite AE arcs where somebody stole the chest slider from icon. Various female signature heroes lost their melons and most of their self esteem and powers. The miscreant, who was fed up everybody got boobage except her, then proceded to do the claws attack where you somersault over (eviscerate ?) with her newly augmented chest and smacked herself in the face. Lots of good schoolboy humour.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

I have a feeling that he might have been referring to this version

Actually compared to a lot of anime (or even Korean MMOs) I've seen the "DoA Xtreme Volleyball" version of jiggle is relatively tame by comparison. It was certainly far more conservative than the hyperbolic "mobile mammaries [that] may just fly off, or worse loop around and end up clipping through some poor girls back, like capes used to do through ones legs!" silliness that LeadWanderer was talking about.

To be honest if the Devs here managed to provide maybe 50% as much jiggle as DoA Xtreme Volleyball did that'd probably be just about the perfect amount for CoT.

Minotaur wrote:

This is making me miss what was one of my favourite AE arcs where somebody stole the chest slider from icon. Various female signature heroes lost their melons and most of their self esteem and powers. The miscreant, who was fed up everybody got boobage except her, then proceded to do the claws attack where you somersault over (eviscerate ?) with her newly augmented chest and smacked herself in the face. Lots of good schoolboy humour.

That sounds like that could have been the plot of a Stripperella episode. ;)

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I was simply saying with that

I was simply saying with that, that if it's a physics based thing, then movement triggers it, bigger movement, bigger jostle, more rapid movement, it could be too much... I'm more interested in skirt and hair swaying... I was trying to point out that nothing is fool proof or glitch proof... Which has been pointed out elsewhere. I'm by no means an expert on the current advancement of Physics within game environments, but I'm simply a believer in the notion that, anything that could go wrong, will go wrong eventually, and will take time away from more (In my opinion) valuable aspects of the game.

Also, the mammaries flying off, was reference to a webcomic panel I saw when xtreme beach volleyball first released, where some character was bouncing in celebration and her boobs started spinning faster and faster, then tore off her chest and flew away, shouting "I'm free!". It was funny, and true...

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LeadWanderer wrote:
LeadWanderer wrote:

I was simply saying with that, that if it's a physics based thing, then movement triggers it, bigger movement, bigger jostle, more rapid movement, it could be too much... I'm more interested in skirt and hair swaying... I was trying to point out that nothing is fool proof or glitch proof... Which has been pointed out elsewhere. I'm by no means an expert on the current advancement of Physics within game environments, but I'm simply a believer in the notion that, anything that could go wrong, will go wrong eventually, and will take time away from more (In my opinion) valuable aspects of the game.
Also, the mammaries flying off, was reference to a webcomic panel I saw when xtreme beach volleyball first released, where some character was bouncing in celebration and her boobs started spinning faster and faster, then tore off her chest and flew away, shouting "I'm free!". It was funny, and true...

No worries. I'd agree that there's always the potential that "new graphics features" might come with unforeseen glitches or bugs. It's always possible that even though technology like Unreal Engine 4 should (in theory) make things like clothing and hair movement relatively easy and efficient to create that problems could arise that'd make these extra visual details more trouble than they're worth.

But looking back over the course of CoH's history we saw the old Devs managed to get new things like capes, wings and tails working fairly well given the limitations of CoH's 2004 era engine. Even the DoA Xtreme Volleyball example we've been talking about is now over 10 years old so it's not like "jiggle physics" is a bleeding-edge concept. I don't pretend to be a specialized CGI animation expert myself but I suspect (based on my decades of overall professional software experience) that the amount of effort it would take to implement a reasonable degree of "cosmetic jiggle" in CoT would not be incredibly prohibitive. Again it would certainly not need to be a launch-day priority, but I could easily see it added to the game as a graphical QoL upgrade without an overwhelming amount of difficulty.

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wait, i just had a image of

wait, i just had a image of fat toons, SUPER FAT TOONS.

trying to dance.

i hate my eyes......

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I'm a waddlin' man (no wind to talk).

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I just keep seeing some of

I just keep seeing some of the female toons knocking themselves out if they ran with the extremely exaggerated physics. OR there is also the possible hypnotic/distraction factor on an opponent that could occur. I know I myself, had to pause & watch the different clips shown above.....purely to fully understand the discussion of course.....GRIN

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1 eye archer wrote:
1 eye archer wrote:

I just keep seeing some of the female toons knocking themselves out if they ran with the extremely exaggerated physics

That's why I keep saying I still don't think anyone's seriously asking for "extremely exaggerated" physics with this. Even a small amount of "moderately reasonable" physics would be much better than the "absolutely zero" physics we had in CoH.

1 eye archer wrote:

there is also the possible hypnotic/distraction factor on an opponent that could occur. I know I myself, had to pause & watch the different clips shown above.....purely to fully understand the discussion of course.....GRIN

I suspect there'd be plenty of healthy "hypnotic/distraction factor" even with a subtly small degree of realistic jiggle. I don't need to have my female characters looking like they should be "knocking themselves out" every time they run or jump around. But by the same token I'd also like to have my characters' chests jiggle around at least enough to know they are not made of solid stone either.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But by the same token I'd also like to have my characters' chests jiggle around at least enough to know they are not made of solid stone either.

Agreed.

Unless they are made of solid stone. Or metal, crystal, wood, etc. ^_^

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

1 eye archer wrote:
I just keep seeing some of the female toons knocking themselves out if they ran with the extremely exaggerated physics

That's why I keep saying I still don't think anyone's seriously asking for "extremely exaggerated" physics with this. Even a small amount of "moderately reasonable" physics would be much better than the "absolutely zero" physics we had in CoH.
1 eye archer wrote:
there is also the possible hypnotic/distraction factor on an opponent that could occur. I know I myself, had to pause & watch the different clips shown above.....purely to fully understand the discussion of course.....GRIN

I suspect there'd be plenty of healthy "hypnotic/distraction factor" even with a subtly small degree of realistic jiggle. I don't need to have my female characters looking like they should be "knocking themselves out" every time they run or jump around. But by the same token I'd also like to have my characters' chests jiggle around at least enough to know they are not made of solid stone either.

ah, the coh characters were really made of legos.

still, i see lots of bikini tops in cot future if this happens.

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It's worse than that -- it's

It's worse than that -- it's physics, Jim! Also, it is a Sheep disclaiming that there are "things we intend", "things we are working on", "things we've managed", and "things that will be in the game", and any particular statement may fall into one, some, none, or all of the above.

Unreal has three 'core' joint types that are well supported in the engine and their external tools: fixed, jiggle, and chain. Fixed is what most folks think of as a 'joint': it has a fixed physical relationship to the parent joint which is based on initial length and rotations (plus scaling sometimes). Jiggle joints are pretty much anything that has a limited amount of 'play' in it that is characterized by an elastic / tensile mechanic. Chain joints are for "floppy" things like ponytails or, well, chains. Or... well, I'll leave that example for later, no need to spoil the surprise.

As for jiggle sliders: they would be a "relative strength" thing. Larger amounts of mass and/or stronger physics impulses will result in more displacement, but are also affected by the original shape of whatever part of the body is involved (and possibly by other tweaks where necessary). Although I suspect that sliding it all the way to zero (or possibly just having a 'disable' checkbox) will always be an option, for those bodies where shear forces tend to shatter rather than displace. :P

I can say this much: the jiggle joints for the chest are present on both gender meshes (in fact, they have to be, for various things to work; the skeletons have to match up). However, there are physiological reasons that a male model will probably have a different tensile distribution, and a different shape when the slider is used. But other than possibly in a "bloopers reel" sense (as in, things observed while troubleshooting or testing something), they will be based on real physics plus any modifications that are deemed required to make it visually "work" -- the same standard as everything else.

For those who understand why UE4 switched to physical renders ("it lets you describe things in terms of optical physics, not GPU algorithms"), we pretty much start from a default of "if it needs to move, it should default to moving with absolutely normal physics and only be adjusted if necessary". Because you can go and *look up* things like "what are the mass, size, basic shape factors, and elasticity of a 50th percentile human female breast" in medical literature and get useful answers. Yes, comics have tropes that aren't realistic, and that will be factored in. But ludicrously excessive jiggle is more an anime visual trope, since comics are still primarily a still-image media (outside of movies where you're dealing with real human actors and related limitations). So I personally wouldn't lay my money on seeing it show up, but I'm not the one setting the visual style rules, so take that as a more-"maybe"-than-even-the-usual-disclaimer statement.

As for armor, know why it doesn't jiggle? Because it is rigid. And strapped down tightly enough, for most of that sort of armor, to compress things to the point of not having much room to move about in. If you're wearing a jacket and a sports bra and take off running sideways, things might in fact shift far enough, for a moment or two, to cause the jacket to be displaced simply because inertia matters. On the other hand, since there's also a good chance that the twisting of the body to do that will already be causing the jacket to experience centrifugal force (yes, really; most character-level physics is calculated in character-local space, meaning it *is* a rotating frame of reference) it is likely that the jacket will be out of that space for other reasons. And if the armor is flexible, a la chain mail, it will behave about like you'd expect... if you're a SCAdian or have otherwise ever had reason to wear such.

In fairness: some of this is not going to be visible in early demos because we won't have put together all of the pieces yet when we reach that point. But since we have the *minimal* skeletal arrangement mostly-nailed-down at this point (as opposed to everything we might eventually find ways to add), I can at least speak to that part.


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Addendum: that does mean that

Addendum: that does mean that if we allow turning physics down (almost certain) or off (possibly, may depend on impact on several things) and someone chooses to do so, they simply won't see it.


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interesting.

interesting.

now we need only worry about people who have a costume like this: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/173/a/8/Bad_Cosplay_by_kita_kudai.jpg

for this game will surly render them realistically.

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Thanks, DeathSheep -- I love

Thanks, DeathSheep -- I love that kind of info on how the game engine works behind the scenes. You've also answered several questions about player options regarding these effects. Much appreciated!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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masterghostartist wrote:
masterghostartist wrote:

interesting.
now we need only worry about people who have a costume like this: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/173/a/8/Bad_Cosplay_by_kita_kudai.jpg
for this game will surly render them realistically.

Why yes. Yes, it will...


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Can we please make sure the

Can we please make sure the game works before we start worrying about how many young people we will be corrupting with lessons of anatomical physics? I sincerely hope that a good game with mediocre jiggle physics would do better with this crowd than a bad game that ripped off Baywatch.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Can we please make sure the game works before we start worrying about how many young people we will be corrupting with lessons of anatomical physics? I sincerely hope that a good game with mediocre jiggle physics would do better with this crowd than a bad game that ripped off Baywatch.

We actually played a good game that did very well for itself for 8.5 years with NO jiggle physics - it was called CoH.

I don't really know why people keep replying to this thread assuming that 1) people who want "jiggle physics" only want it to be laughably extreme in nature and 2) want it as something that absolutely MUST be in the game from Day One at all costs as a critical top priority. Neither assumption could be further from the truth for pretty much everyone.

It's clear from CoH that CoT could easily be very good and successful WITHOUT jiggle physics. But since we are now living in 2014 (instead of 2004) we have the opportunity to have a game created with a modern game engine (Unreal Engine 4) that can routinely do things like "jiggle physics" in ways that the old CoH engine could barely dream of. Frankly the argument that something like "jiggle physics" shouldn't be considered because it might somehow take too much time or effort away from the "core development" of the game is really almost laughable at this point.

Does CoT NEED jiggle physics to be successful at any time launch or otherwise? No.

Would it be NICE to have a reasonable version of jiggle physics at least at SOME time in CoT. Sure.

The post from DeathSheepFromHell makes it pretty clear the Devs are at the very least strongly considering having it in the game already. I'm more than willing to accept the way they are leaning on this issue without worrying that having jiggle physics would in any way be BAD for CoT.

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because boobies?

because boobies?

http://youtu.be/YFC3gdU3tTg

!

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I can assure you all that

I can assure you all that "jiggle physics" as a topic has taken up approximately the following amount of Dev thought:

"Hmmm. Looks like the tool suite supports jiggle physics joints."

"Well, since we need to add several joints to the base skeleton for other purposes, might as well toss in a handful of those so that we can see how they work in practice."

"Okay, simplest way to do that is to just put them on the core skeleton and use different physics constraints to reflect the physiology. Let's see... yeah, okay, five minutes of searching found me enough medical documentation to be reasonably sure we can figure out numbers that won't twist things into a pretzel."

"Mental note: if this works, remember to add them to other fatty tissue deposits as appropriate. But we can worry about that a few revisions down the road when we know they *do* actually work."

I'm fairly sure that we've invested *at least* three times as much effort into getting a place to anchor a tail that will work reasonably, and five times as much in figuring out how to set up the shoulders and upper torso (front and back) to be able to have capes work within the (remarkably tight) tolerances available when trying to do things like brooches or clasps. For that matter, wings required a bolt of inspiration before we figured out how to make them really sync up properly with other animations -- at least without having to have a duplicate (probably more-than-duplicate) set of animations for handling stuff with/without them while avoiding the "uhm, wings don't actually work that way, even if we're throwing physics out the window, it *looks* terrible" issues.

Heck, I suspect that writing on this thread a couple of times constitutes a non-trivial (not large, but definitely observable) percentage of the total thought invested. And pretty much the entirety of the thinking about it that isn't a specific practical question is "how much can we get from the engine cheaply enough to be worth the effort, and what do we need to do to arrange that?"

Besides, there is an entirely practical reason for the first tests to be on the chest rather than elsewhere: because the tissue distribution (large or small) is significantly further from the body's center of gravity, it tends to amplify any problems that do creep in, making them easier to spot and fix.


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Allow me to repeat my earlier

Allow me to repeat my earlier thanks, both for anchoring this thread to what's actually going on and for giving us yet more glimpse behind the technical curtain.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'll second those thanks.

I'll second those thanks.

I'll even thrown in a spurning of the kindles.

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But I liked my Kindle....

But I liked my Kindle....

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So... Found that comic I was

So... Found that comic I was refering to...

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LeadWanderer wrote:
LeadWanderer wrote:

So... Found that comic I was refering to...

Yeah I think I actually remember seeing this comic back in the day. While it's amusing for pointing out the silliness of taking the general notion of "jiggling" to its absurd extremes it still doesn't really apply to what's being suggested here. Even the DoA game itself (which I think most of us can agree pretty much only existed to showcase breast jiggles) didn't have the software/physics problems of "knocking their owners out" or "flying off on their own".

Unlike the DoA game I wouldn't want CoT's graphics engine to make "jiggles" so obvious that it'd be all you'd see the second you look at the screen. Ideally it'd be so low-key and subtle that you might not even notice it unless you were looking closely. It's the subtle details that add the degree of realism we'd want. The Unreal Engine 4 is going to allow for details like animated hair and clothing - arguably we don't really NEED those things to have a good game but we are likely going to get them anyway. All that's being suggested here is that a subtle bit of body jiggle could also serve as extra graphics detail without it having to be implemented in a hyperbolically overblown fashion.

For what it's worth (and assuming you're serious about all this) I really have absolutely no fear that if the CoT Devs decided to add reasonable amounts of "jiggle" to this game that it could possibly break the way you seem to be implying. While it might be a funny mental image to think of things like breasts building up enough inertial momentum to fly off on their own the chances of that kind of thing actually being allowable by the software by "accident" are effectively nil. There would be maybe a million other things to worry about before I'd worry about this being an actual problem here.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Right, I get it, I just

Right, I get it, I just wanted to share the pic that inspired it. I figured this topic had reached a natural end since the general consensus seemed to state that the devs would know what they're doing and not make it too jiggly. That comic was funny though.

I'm fairly confident in our friendly-neighborhood-devs as well. They seem to listen very well to all that the community puts forth and they seem to understand the proper limitations and expectations that people have for a modern game like this. I'm less trusting of software than of the people working on it, I've dabbled in code and a few other aspects related to this, so the possibility for screw ups when trying to get all the apples in the bucket at the get go, is nearly impossible.

I think/hope that the case will be that most objects, clothing, hair, etc, would be made to handle animation, even if the devs don't get around to programming them to their explicit behavior and lock their jiggle motion in place until they have time to focus on the quality of like detail of it. Also the idea that they could possibly fly off is absolutely absurd, I realize this, it was a farce or joke, and don't REALLY expect them to fly off. However, weird things happen, mistakes happen, but they'll be worth it. There will however be good and bad to this, we'll get skirts and hair that bobs correctly, but we'll also get electronic moobs...

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LeadWanderer wrote:
LeadWanderer wrote:

I'm less trusting of software than of the people working on it, I've dabbled in code and a few other aspects related to this, so the possibility for screw ups when trying to get all the apples in the bucket at the get go, is nearly impossible.

Just wanted to mention that (at least for me) you're preaching to the choir with this. I have nearly 20 years of professional software engineering experience so I've seen a huge spectrum of things that can go wrong with software. As Rutger Hauer said in Blade Runner, "I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe..."

Even with that real world Murphy's Law experience I still wouldn't worry about this issue any more or less than any other feature that might "break" in this game. Obviously any "jiggle" added to CoT would need to be tested both internally as well as with public beta testing and it wouldn't necessarily be prone to being any more or less buggy than anything else. If for whatever reason the Devs couldn't get it to work as intended they'd keep it out of the release build until it was fixed or they gave up on it.

LeadWanderer wrote:

There will however be good and bad to this, we'll get skirts and hair that bobs correctly, but we'll also get electronic moobs...

The Devs have already mentioned in other posts on this forum that they are currently focusing on separate male and female body models for our characters. The reason for this was explained that each required a different arrangement of polygons to best represent the contours they wanted them to have. Specifically the female model is going to have more polygons built into its upper torso region to better render the differently sized/shaped breasts they want to be able to provide. If this eventually leads to giving us "jiggle" in this area (either at launch or sometime after launch) that'll be great. But almost by definition this'll mean that the chances for "moobs" in males will be zilch simply because their different polygon structure is not going to allow for it. In other words if the Devs wanted us to have "moobs" they'd probably design the male chest to be exactly like the female one.

Again I'm willing to entertain the "possibilities" that anything could go wrong with all this. I'm just not willing to give it any more concern than it actually deserves which frankly isn't that much to begin with. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Hmmm. Not reading all 78

Hmmm. Not reading all 78 replies. I'm just logging on to support jiggle physics. Extreme would distract from the game but a mild, yet noticeable jiggle would please the eye.
*** jiggle is in so many games now, it would be a crime not to include it here.

Outfits like this demand a little jiggle...

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Okay, now I need to know, was

Okay, now I need to know, was that something official? I never thought she was bullet proof. She doesn't seem slash proof for sure.

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Hooray. I was afraid I killed

Hooray. I was afraid I killed the thread!

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

LOL! the greatest post EVER!

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Normally I'm usually amazed

Normally I'm amazed when threads like this get rezzed from the dead - this one managed to rest in peace for 8 months before digging itself from the grave. But learning that Wonder Woman might have had to deal with "bullet jiggle" since the old-school days was pretty amusing. ;)

It's funny when most people talk about "jiggle physics" in games it's usually in response to what happens when female characters run/jump around - I'll bet most people didn't even consider the question of what would happen when they got hit in the "jiggly" areas. For the sake of serious discussion since games like CoT don't really account for taking damage in specific hit locations I would suggest the CoT Devs not even bother trying to incorporate "bullet jiggle" no matter how amusing/realistic it could be. Besides most superheroines probably aren't as invulnerable as Wonder Woman might technically be anyway so I doubt randomly taking bullets in the chest would be a desirable option for most.

With that said it's probably still worth the effort to have modest amounts of female "movement jiggle" in CoT along the lines that have been exhaustively covered in this thread already. Obviously we'll see if the Devs agree with that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Everything I've read says she

Everything I've read says she's no bullet proof (or invunerable to any piercing type weapon) so I take it this is made to look old or been retconned, but now it makes one wonder about Power or Super Girl.

All that said, don't think we need it for bullets in CoT. Though, maybe if one makes use of their butt slider, there could be some butt jiggle :o

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Everything I've read says she's no bullet proof (or invunerable to any piercing type weapon) so I take it this is made to look old or been retconned, but now it makes one wonder about Power or Super Girl.
All that said, don't think we need it for bullets in CoT. Though, maybe if one makes use of their butt slider, there could be some butt jiggle :o

I try to avoid getting too hung up about the exact nature of specific super powers of individual superheroes, especially the older olds which have "evolved/morphed" over decades. For what it's worth I never thought Wonder Woman was supposed to be as equally invulnerable as Superman vis-a-vis being bulletproof either but I'm sure there are versions of her character somewhere in the comic canon that could prove that bullets would "bounce" off of her just as depicted in this comic. Anyway I'm also pretty sure this comic was not a real page from an old comic but more of a modern joke drawn in the golden age style just to make the joke more humorous - it's even self-labeled as a "parody" at the bottom of the page. ;)

The problem with trying to strictly define the precise limits of superhero powers lies with how many different aritst/writers have had a hand in changing the various characters over the years to suit their own purposes. It's almost as bad as what has happened to "vampires" in that now-a-days the powers and weaknesses related to any given vampire depends totally on the setting they are in and/or what any subset group of people agree on at any given moment. Some say vampires can be turned by crosses and garlic, others say those things have no effect. Some say vamps don't cast reflections in mirrors - others say they do, and so on.

So while the average superhero might not be as "variable" as vamps have become it's worth noting that like vamps their abilities are still heavily dependant on a frame of reference. Basically one person's canon can easily be someone else's BS.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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It was just a funny comic.

It was just a funny comic. All anyone is asking for is a little jiggle with movement.
and a boob slider. that goes without saying.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Normally I'm amazed when threads like this get rezzed from the dead - this one managed to rest in peace for 8 months before digging itself from the grave.

(speaks solemnly) Some things will never die.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Everything I've read says she's no bullet proof (or invunerable to any piercing type weapon) so I take it this is made to look old or been retconned, but now it makes one wonder about Power or Super Girl.
All that said, don't think we need it for bullets in CoT. Though, maybe if one makes use of their butt slider, there could be some butt jiggle :o

I try to avoid getting too hung up about the exact nature of specific super powers of individual superheroes, especially the older olds which have "evolved/morphed" over decades. For what it's worth I never thought Wonder Woman was supposed to be as equally invulnerable as Superman vis-a-vis being bulletproof either but I'm sure there are versions of her character somewhere in the comic canon that could prove that bullets would "bounce" off of her just as depicted in this comic. Anyway I'm also pretty sure this comic was not a real page from an old comic but more of a modern joke drawn in the golden age style just to make the joke more humorous - it's even self-labeled as a "parody" at the bottom of the page. ;)
The problem with trying to strictly define the precise limits of superhero powers lies with how many different aritst/writers have had a hand in changing the various characters over the years to suit their own purposes. It's almost as bad as what has happened to "vampires" in that now-a-days the powers and weaknesses related to any given vampire depends totally on the setting they are in and/or what any subset group of people agree on at any given moment. Some say vampires can be turned by crosses and garlic, others say those things have no effect. Some say vamps don't cast reflections in mirrors - others say they do, and so on.
So while the average superhero might not be as "variable" as vamps have become it's worth noting that like vamps their abilities are still heavily dependant on a frame of reference. Basically one person's canon can easily be someone else's BS.

Oh, never saw WW as being that invulnerable. I figured that's reasons her foes like Cheetah has a chance. She's durable, able to withstand blunt/concussive force but piercing/slashing damage could take her down.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Oh, never saw WW as being that invulnerable. I figured that's reasons her foes like Cheetah has a chance. She's durable, able to withstand blunt/concussive force but piercing/slashing damage could take her down.

Like water resistant? not water proof? ;)

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