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Maybe I should have said it another way... It is not important. To me, it's a waste of dev time, but as was said, if it's not already in, please don't waste time putting it in. You won't see it (just like facial details) unless you're super zoomed in. Who gets THAT close to their character while they're fighting? I like to see what's around me.
My DeviantArt page
http://shamanatdawn.deviantart.com/
I have always thought that breast jiggle, like pretty much any other kind of body model detail you could think of, should simply be another OPTION for character customization in this game. To me it's no different than being able to adjust our arm lengths or foot size.
A cornerstone of the design of this game has always been based on giving players as many character design options as possible. This is why we are going to get as many costume items, body sliders and power animations as the Devs can create. We're also going to be getting new things that CoH could never effectively handle like hair and clothing animations. As other modern games have shown the time has come to allow for a REASONABLE and SUBTLE degree of breast jiggle to be an option here.
There's absolutely no problem with an individual player questioning whether they think jiggle is something they want to see in a superhero game. This is why virtually everyone agrees that it should be a 100% OPTIONAL feature in CoT. This is why I favor the slider idea to control the degree of jiggle for each costume slot that I've mentioned in probably a dozen other posts on this thread. If you don't want your characters to jiggle then simply set the slider to make sure they don't. Players should have the freedom to decide for themselves whether they want to rationalize their own characters' jiggle or not. If you want to say that all of YOUR female characters would always wear something like a sports bra to prevent noticeable jiggle there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But by the same token if I want MY female character(s) to wear bikini tops or cut-off t-shirts I should have the right to allow my characters to jiggle based on my OWN judgment on the matter.
There have been many side discussions on whether something like this should be "client side only" or not. Obviously if the Devs decided they would allow breast jiggle in CoT but that it would be something that you could only see on your own clients then that would have to be a compromise that we would collectively have to accept. On the other hand I would point out that if you go to practically any beach in the US and watch women running/jumping around you're going to see jiggle. Just look at the vid posted way back in the original post on this thread. Personally I don't think jiggle like that is enough to ruin this game's "T for Teen" rating considering all the other sexy/violent things this game's going to portray regardless. If a parent is already going to allow little Johnny and Jane to beat-up bad guys with laser guns and adamantium claws the idea that a glimpse of jiggle will scar them for life is probably a bit of a stretch all things considered.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'll bet if you asked every potential player of CoT to make a top 10 list of the things they thought were LEAST important to have for this game that at least 5 of those items are already going to be in this game regardless.
I can accept that for you this is not an important issue but there's going to be far more to this game than constant fighting. As a quick simple example most people don't use emotes while fighting yet there are probably going to be hundreds of those in the game by the time all is said and done. Would you like to argue that emotes are a "waste of time" for a MMO?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Right. Optional and client-side. We're in agreement then.
I'm not in agreement with making breast jiggle optional.
I am reminded of a bobybuilding story. It was the mid-'seventies. A young buck was strutting around the gym as if he were the epitome of perfection when none other than Arnold Schwarzenegger walked in. Arnold had just beaten Lou Ferrigno for the Mr. Universe and Mr. Olympia titles and was in the top form of his life. So Arnold walks in and sees the guy admiring himself in the mirror and remarking that he had nothing more to improve upon. At this, Arnold told him to hop in place.
As the guy hopped in place Arnold pointed at him and said that everything that jiggled was fat. And if he really wanted to claim perfection he had to eliminate it all. The other guys at the gym snickered to themselves and one of them must have passed on the story for it is now an urban legend.
The reason I bring this up is because fat jiggles. It's not an option. I would like to see it such that our characters jiggle where we are not restrained. I would like to see a fat/lean slider so we can make our characters as padded as we want. And since breasts are primarily just fatty tissue, I would expect them to jiggle as much as glutes and bellies and chins. If you opt to give your character enormous breasts, then your only option to prevent jiggle is to encase them in proper costume support. The same goes for the other fatty portions of your body.
I personally think that if we offer body physics, we should also offer a toggle as an option to assist with client machines that can't handle the processing power. Just like there will be settings for all sorts of other physics settings and graphical settings. And, of course for people who just don't want to see body physics. But to have an option just for breast jiggle is in some way acknowledging that there is something indecent or offensive about it. And that's just not the case.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
An optional jiggle slider for not just breasts but hips also, such as the one illustrated in this previously posted video about Skyforge, as an example of additional and more realistic jiggle options?
[youtube]9bp5tTB3TUw[/youtube]
Also; this song by Austrian Death Machine called 'It's Simple, If It Jiggles It's Fat':
[youtube]l2r3UgeyiuQ[/youtube]
Since I am not much of an RPer, since you rarely find anyone willing to do it and take it somewhat seriously, no emotes are not THAT important, at least to me. And well, mmos are about advancement, and 90% or more of that advancement is based around quests with combat.
My DeviantArt page
http://shamanatdawn.deviantart.com/
This has been idealized as the proper amount of body physics:
[youtube]Ymw2QBMRBVg[/youtube]
But in a game where all kinds of body shapes and sizes are possible then these extremes are possible as well:
[youtube]swBFzguJTM0[/youtube]
[youtube]uGBlX5uXNYg[/youtube]
Body physics are not trivial to put in a game. Especially a game where clothing is a separate model and not just an overlay/re-skin. I'd rather they use their time and effort to make more costume options or quests.
Body physics also have a pretty big impact on a cpu which gets worse with multiple body physics characters. That processing is better put towards higher quality particle effects for powers, lighting, shadows, texture quality or draw distance.
What you get with body physics is not worth the stuff you have to sacrifice IMO.
Not entirely...
I agree with the "optional" part but I actually don't strictly accept that it should be "client side only". I stated pretty clearly that having a solution that was client-side only would "be a compromise that we would collectively have to accept".
Basically that means if the only way the Devs would allow jiggle into the game is by making it arbitrarily client-side only then that would at least be better than not having it at all. I don't believe that restricting jiggle to some kind of client mod would be the ideal solution - it would be simply better than absolutely nothing.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
For me the question of breast jiggle in a game like CoT has always been more of a technological baby step towards the more general "full body jiggle" that you're describing. I think everything you've suggested here is great - but I also think it might be a few steps too far in what we should be expecting from MWM any time soon. I'm not saying it's beyond MWM's capabilities - I just think what you're proposing is a "holy grail" of sorts that may still be some number of years off.
So if we are stuck with a scenario where we're either going to get absolutely no body model jiggle physics at all (i.e. CoH circa 2004) or we MIGHT get at least the fisrt baby step towards full body model physics (which to my mind is something like breast jiggle by itself) then I'm all in favor of the baby step for CoT.
Also I like your idea of having "a toggle as an option to assist with client machines that can't handle the processing power". In your perfect world of full body jiggle physics that makes complete sense. But again if we end up with a compromise of ONLY having breast physics as a thing in CoT then I still think it needs to have an optional toggle regardless of any connotation that the toggle exists as some kind of nod to something offensive. I don't see a "breast jiggle toggle" as anything other than 100% utilitarian.
I have already commented on this thread (probably years ago) that I would only want SOME of the female characters I make to have any amount of breast jiggle. I would never want ALL of my female characters to jiggle by default regardless of how much I've cheer-led for having breast jiggle in CoT. A toggle switch (or better yet my slider idea) for each costume slot would allow full control of jiggle per costume. That "full control" would range from zero jiggle to subtle amounts of jiggle, period.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Again I get that you might not be much of an RP'er - I never said you had to be. You likely never played on CoH's Virtue server either but that's beside the point. *shrugs*
My main point here is that all MMOs are packed full of all sorts of features that most players would individually find to be essentially pointless as far as they are personally concerned. Case in point there are likely a dozen things you'd consider to be vitally important for CoT that I could care less about. It happens for everyone.
But in this case if large numbers of players think it's important for modern MMOs to have things like clothing animation, dozens of facial sliders and hundreds of emotes there are going to be plenty of those people who'll also consider new forms of body model physics to be of value as well. If players didn't care about pushing the boundaries of what's possible we'd all still be playing with player characters that looked as detail-less as Pac-man.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think you're making the same basic mistake of scale that Huckleberry made a few posts ago. Your argument seems to be the only way to get ANY amount of body model jiggle physics is to assume the Devs would have to tackle ALL body shapes with ALL types types of jiggle anywhere on the body without any interim steps in-between. Sure if the Devs had to do ALL of that ALL at once it would be far too difficult to accomplish and it likely would never happen in ANY game. What you're suggesting is akin to trying to develop something from square 1 to square 100 instantaneously. That's simply a faulty argument in this situation.
Although the "end goal" for game development might be to have body models that can account for how bodies jiggle in toto there's absolutely no reason why the Devs of CoT (or any game) couldn't tackle a relatively small piece of the problem one step at a time. In this situation the obvious "small piece" I'm referring to is breast physics and ONLY breast physics. Is it ideal to only consider the jiggle physics for one isolated part of the female body? Of course not - as I just agreed the long term goal is to get body jiggle physics working for the entire body. But if the Devs of CoT can accomplish that for one small part (breasts only) then it will be easier to eventually get it working everywhere.
When man went to moon their first step wasn't to build the Saturn 5 rocket. Their first steps involved all the other smaller rockets (Mercury, Gemini, etc.) that finally lead them up to the final goal. Likewise the first step to full body jiggle physic is not going to be "full body jiggle physics". It's going to involve a bunch of smaller steps one of which could easily be handling breast jiggle by itself first. That problem is far more easily doable for CoT in the near term than anything you and Huckleberry are talking about.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If they implemented it client-side, how would that be arbitrarily? I would like to think that they weighed the pros and cons and implemented it intentionally. Since I'm not a dev I obviously can't speak to that empirically, but it would be relatively safe to assume that they don't implement business decisions on 'personal whim or on the basis of random choice', which is how arbitrarily is defined. I'm fairly sure you know this (I can't be 100% sure), but I still found it interesting that you used that word specifically. In my experiences across the internet, which doesn't necessitate that it applies here, but it tends to be in conjunction with statements where a player feels the devs made a decision that didn't align with what that player wants or their perspective. Essentially, if it's not implemented your way, then they [i]had[/i] to have done it without full and true consideration or 'on the basis of random choice'. That may not have been the message you intended to put out there, but that's how it came across to me.
As a proponent for personalized options, it is in my opinion that a client-side implementation is one of the more elegant solutions because it allows for any amount of jiggle physics that the player chooses [i]and[/i] it doesn't infringe on any other player's gameplay experience in either GFX performance or personal aesthetics/sensibilities. Seems fairly win-win to me, but again, this is entirely my opinion, and you clearly feel differently, which is fine (and no, this isn't an invitation to make the ubiquitous retort about needing my permission to feel the way you do, you don't need it as you are an adult), but you aren't going to convince me otherwise.
You have missed the point. With body scaling, including breast scaling, any body physics, breast or full body, that are deemed acceptable levels for one body type may not be for others.
There isn't a problem that needs to be solved. How to do it is already known. Actually doing it requires work and sacrificing other aspects of the game. Only giving breasts the physics does not make it easier to do the rest.
My original opinion stands, what you get with body physics, even just breast physics, is not worth the stuff you have to sacrifice.
It has been mentioned. While hair/cloth physics are related to body physics they are not achieved the same way. The extensive and fairly easy to navigate procedurals of hair and cloth physics do not transfer over to body physics.
I agree that if the devs do decide to include body physics they should design for that inclusion long before doing much else with those models.
I don't really want to get involved in this discussion again, the last time it got me close to the point of giving up on the forum and the game entirely, but there are some inaccuracies here that need adressing.
First of all, there is a considerable difference between animating hair and breasts.
There are two fundamentally different approaches to animating characters (three if you count cel animation but that won't work for games in 99% of the cases)
The first one is by adding one or more bones to the skeleton and add its movement to the animation cycle. This is what you are proposing. This has been used e.g. in DOA:extreme beach volleyball and it leads to, let's say, questionable results in the final animation.
The second one is by adding deformers directly to the mesh (i.e. animating the normal map). This is a lot more work but arguably can have better results. Of course it also needs to be redone for every model. Some games try to get out of that requirement by scaling the normal map but the results of that are usually ... terribad. For cut scenes of the main protagonist (e.g. tomb raider's cut scenes and death porn qt events this is feasible, and likely the method used)
In MMOs the second is pretty much a non started (unless you are a korean mmo with two female character models to chose from), so adding one or more bones and rigging them to the animation cycle is the go to option.
The problem here is twofold. First and most important, unlike mesh triangles (well, those too but not to the same degree) bones are an extremely limited resource in the animator's arsenal. Especially in MMOs where the high computational cost of each of them must be multiplied with potentially a hundred or more characters that are visible on the screen at any one time. Given the number of things an animator would /like/ to animate independently a convincing argument must be made to assign one of the limited bones to any of them.A body part that exists only on half the characters (or less, given the prevalence of male characters in MMOs) and is invisible pretty much the entire time due to the first person or over the shoulder camera position does not make a convincing argument to burn limited CPU and GPU resources on. That same bone could also be used to better articulate long hair, tails, coats, banners or skirts and robes. Things that are visible all the time and potentially benefit all characters.
The second issue is that using a bone in the skeleton to animate breast does not work at all well. Breasts don't have bones and it shows in the way they move.They do not have a rigid core and are much more malleable than other body parts. They can easily be compressed by even fairly light clothing and react more like fluid than like limbs to changes in body orientation. The movement of breasts is typically determined by the clothes or armour. Even a fairly slinky bikini top will affect the movement of the breasts. On top of that, orientation of the chest affects the position of the breasts and may break the symmetry as well as give them a different range of movements.
Most animators who are tasked with trying to make a bone rigged system work for breasts try to make do with adding a rigid spring to the bone's animation but this will always result in an uncharacteristic bounce (or a terrible bounce as found in most fighting games where this effect is seen by the marketing department as a draw for their intended audience). This system requires that the mesh for clothes replace the regular chest model (i.e. it can not cope with layered clothes unless those too are modeled into one final mesh and texture). This inevitably results in the dreaded plate mail jiggle. Attempts to create a rigid outer clothing shell will simply result in the underlying breast mesh (presumably with modeled in underwear) poking through the metal at every bounce and jiggle.
What is really needed is a thick fluid dynamics simulator but graphics cards are not set up for those so they would end up on the CPU, which already is heavily burdened with all the other aspects of running a complicated beast like an mmo. Attempting to calculate 60 times per second how hundred individual breasts are trying to escape the confines of fifty different tops in ten different poses will bring a far more powerful computer than the average game one to its knees, quivering with fear and begging for mercy.
(and no, it is not so easy to 'switch off' a bone from the animation cycle because the top chose for that character does not allow for visible breast movement. And it is a lot more work than a small studio like MWM can handle to create different animations for different styles of tops. Again, games that do this generally have a limited number of female body meshes and an equally limited choice in clothes, typically limited to bikini top, one piece swimsuit and painted on cat suit all of which are treated as if they do not constrain the breasts for the purpose of maximising the jiggle)
By contrast, things like long hair, tails, capes, banners, and skirt./robe hems are more or less unconstrained in their movements and typically act as if they do have a rigid core that can be animated by a bone (or set of bones). They are easier by far to animate realistically and convincingly by the current technology found on GPUs.
---
But all these are technical considerations. They do not address the more fundamental questions like:
What purpose does adding jiggle physics have in this game?
What message does it send to the players if it is added?
Is jiggle physics a or the solution to a problem and is it cost effective?
Since this isn't the first time we have been through this song and dance, I do not agree that realism is an answer and 'because we can' is an even worse one. With the current state of technology we are not going to come close to physical realism. And more than that, most of the comments made in this discussion presuppose the need for jiggle physics to increase realism. I would argue there are uncounted other things that would vastly more increase the 'realism' of the game world than jiggle physics that are ignored because they are neither glamorous nor sexy.
I do not think that adding jiggle physics to City of Titans is going to send a message to prospective players that we should want to. For better or worse, jiggle physics is still associated mostly with games like DOA: extreme beach volleyball and most fighting games where impossibly scantily clad female fighters bounce and jiggle over the screen. Demonstrably from sales figures, sex does not sell for games (unless it is a game about sex); good games sell. This was already known to the sexist mad men marketeers of the 60s (who literally wrote the book on marketing). In comics this can equally be seen. They struggle to keep their audience, never mind expanding it. The ones that focus on interesting storytelling and engaging characters over showing skin tend to do better than average (frequently coming close or equal to the famous superheroes who consistently draw an audience), while the writers and artists who bank on bikini bimbos and 'sex sells' quickly find their titles fading and cancelled. And let's be honest about it, the Lynda Carter loop that is held up, by some, as the holy grail of jiggle physics that should be achieved (though I could easily add the slow motion running scenes from baywatch) was filmed only because it was believed to titillate the audience. It served no narrative purpose only a prurient one. It probably worked to an extent (it was the 70s after all) but it also segregated the audience by driving away anybody who was not the intended audience (of male teenagers and somewhat immature adults ages 18 - 34).
I don't want to get into a long diatribe about having breasts and knowing how to limit or enhance their jiggle, how different tops draw attention or deflect it to an extent. I will just add that every woman knows that just having breasts is an invitation for a sizeable percentage of men to act sexist, and the more they are shown the larger that percentage is and the worse the sexist remarks get. For a lot of women visible breast movement is inseparately linked with crude remarks, sexism and objectification. This may be unfair to all male players (though historically they have earned a bad reputation of sexism and terrible treatment of women), but it still is a fact that for many women the inclusion of jiggle physics in a multiplayer game is something to viewed with apprehension if not outright dread. If it invites the same behaviour of male players that we are subject to in reality this will not make a welcoming environment for us.
I appreciate the long post you conjured up regarding my innacurate feedback Nadira. As someone more focused on Modeling, I hadn't realized there was such a stark difference between what I had done personally in closed environments, and the industry standard on a larger scale. After doing a little bit more research, it looks like there are other options available, but being exclusive to different engines and companies, as well as having numerous layers... They aren't really viable either.
Thankyou for pointing These innacuracies out to me. I'm going to delete my previous post to avoid misinformation.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
I feel like you're generalizing a bit badly here - rude players, of both genders, will always exist no matter what situation you've been put in, and will always find a way to be rude to people regardless of what clothing choices you go for. That and there's a large number of women (myself included) that like somewhat revealing outfits for the "sexy" factor. I've known a few women that download mods for games like Skyrim to basically put themselves in bikini armor to feel sexy while they cut people's heads off, as nonsensical as it is.
Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments, in that this really shouldn't be a selling point. Jiggle physics have never been important, and frankly I'm still baffled that this thread still gets necroed every few months by someone bringing out a video going "this is what it should look like!" or something to that effect, but since we're here and talking about it, I guess we may as well? I'd like it if it's present, because subtle (and I do mean [i]subtle[/i]) and clothing weight limited breast jiggle can add some immersion to the game, but I'm not exactly going to be up in arms should they decide to leave it out entirely. Far more concerning is things like hooves, specific sorts of tails, if can I color my skin to be metallic, and other such things like that. (As an aside, with that last example if I have a woman made out of metal her chest bouncing up and down at random would be pretty weird)
Overall, when all is said and done, I believe this thread has developed into a moot point. The costume maker is in the final stages of design, which means the body models are all done and finished; animation skeletons would have been the first part of [i]that[/i] to have been created, meaning if breast bones have been included, they're already in the game and they'd be relatively easy to work with from there. If they aren't, then they aren't, and further discussion on this whole thing is kind of pointless anyways. Ignoring the fact that we're retreading ground in the first place.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Wow, Nadira -- you knocked that one out of the park!
I'm glad you didn't give up on CoT. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
Nadira, that was quite an argument. But I find it specious.
First, there isn't an MMO produced in the past 10 years that has not had breast physics. Second, the games you mention are known for their jiggle physics, yes. But just because games that pander to prurience have breast jiggle does not mean mean that every game that has breast jiggle panders to prurience. Don't get me wrong, I'm not so ignorant or deliberately blinded to not see the mere fact that breast jiggle is included could be considered at least a nod to prurience. But what is a nod to prurience? Any time a man or a woman attempts to make themselves sexually attractive, they are also nodding to the prurient nature of themselves and the men and women around them.
Where is the line between sexually attractive and sexually objectified? I'll tell you where it is, it's in everyone's individual mind. It is a function of perception and intent. Now, try to draw a line in that sand and tell me how it goes.
But I think your argument not only is moot for this game, but inappropriately polarizes the differing points of view that exist. Your apocalyptic outlook is ill-received, at least by me. I think a nod to prurience, which is as far as I am willing to admit this even is, is not the same as ruining cross-sexual relations and alienating the entire female fanbase.
One last thought. You make the following argument which I find quite offensive:
Not only are you grouping all men into some mass of uncontrolled responses to stimuli, but you are putting the blame of the poor behavior of men squarely on the shoulders of the women the men interact with. That is wrong on so many levels and can only end with all women wearing burkas. Is that what you want? Personally, I would prefer men are held accountable for their actions instead of imposing the desexualization of all women out of fear that some men's actions cannot be controlled.
[edit: By the way, I also find it ironic that when indivduals act en mass their behavior lose much of what makes them individual, and becomes quite predictible and controllable. But that is another topic for another time. I think I would enjoy having that talk with you, Nadira]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
That's not true. It's not even true for a [b]'majority'[/b] of MMO's from the last 10 years or even 5 years.
Just for clarity, you mean a line between 'feeling' sexually attractive and 'feeling' sexually objectified?
If you do then you are right, in the real world that is a factor of perception and intent. But in a game the line between 'sexually objectified' and not is defined by the developers through rules and game design. By including breast physics the game increases what is acceptable within the games environment. Without arguing if this is good or bad, that increase has an effect on the game.
Nadira is a bit hyperbolic, but her opinion is a valid one. She does not want that increase in what is acceptable and the players it would draw in?
That is not even close to what she said nor what she is calling for. She isn't calling for desexualization, she is saying, again a bit hyperbolic in its generalizations, that this feature has an effect on certain types of males which a portion of women find offensive.
I personally don't agree with some of her points. I do think sex sells, I do think it is possible to give the illusion of realism with breast physics and I don't think including breast physics will make the game unfriendly towards vast majority of women.
You can disagree with her opinions or what facts she presents but finding moral arguments to disagree with is pointless.
Yes, I exaggerated. The last two MMO that did not have body physics were RIFT and SWTOR, both of which came out in 2011. But I know of no other that does not have it. If you can think of any or find any from the past 10 years that does not have body physics, please let us all know. And I will find three for any one that you find. Even WOW has breast jiggle.
That was included in the question. But the question was all-encompassing and was meant to inspire deeper thought into what we are really discussing. I think [url=http://io9.gizmodo.com/5844355/a-7-year-old-girl-responds-to-dc-comics-sexed-up-reboot-of-starfire]this article[/url] that has comments from a 7-year old does the best at highlighting when to know that objectification has been reached.
Don't be patronizing. All opinions are valid and I don't think Nadira needs you to say that hers are.
Ah. And that kind of makes my point for me. What types of male? Can we define them? Will we know which male players it will affect? And if we can identify them, does that absolve them of the responsibility to behave respectfully?
And are you really trying to make a stand on not including some content or capabilities because [u]certain[/u] players whom we can not predict will act in a way that a [u]portion[/u]of other players will find offensive? Do you realize how silly that sounds?
When are we going to collectively grow up and take personal responsibility for our own actions?
Fair point. But in Nadira's defense, I think she is right on when she says that sex doesn't keep customers coming back beyond the initial sell. (Nadira, please forgive my paraphrase)
But as a reasonable man (at least I think of myself as such), there were some things I felt I couldn't let stand without a rebuttal.
I don't believe I've yet made a stand in this forum on whether I would like breast jiggle or not. I really don't think anyone would be interested in my opinion on that matter, but some of the discussion in this forum has been enlightening and has caused me to get a better understanding of the issues and has helped me to educate and inform my own opinions. So to all the participants, thank you.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I have a guilty pleasure, which is reading this thread.
I think there are two pieces of information that together provide us the answer.
A) The body model as it is concerned in this topic is going to require a lot of work post launch to add this feature as the costuming options grow this tasks difficulty increases. While not impossible would be a substantial undertaking somewhere on the order of power customization for COH. Or as we were told many times in COH, "Impossible(tm)". Effectively making this something that must be done now, rather than later.
B) The character model has been in development for a substantial amount of time. So these decisions were likely made shortly after the switch to the new engine. Further, they had to bring in an outside engineer to rig the model. Bringing in said engineer again to re-rig to accommodate updates to the anatomy may no longer be a possibility.
These two pieces of information seem to lean heavily against the odds of jiggle being added, if not already in the works. However, there are a few rays of hope for those in favor.
A similar thread to this one existed in the COH forums for power customization and time and time again we were told "impossible" but suddenly Power Customization became a reality despite the massive undertaking.
While the original body model was rigged by someone outside MWM it is possible that someone within MWM has learned enough in the process to make the necessary changes. Will that be good enough? Hard to say.
Another option would be that MWM could have found another model rigger to do the work or hired someone capable or low level character model changes making this easier. This is basically what happened with COH and power customization. I believe MWM recently put out a call for a 3d modeller...perhaps a jiggle angel appeared.
Second Chance: https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/CityOfTitans/SecondChance/
Dev Tracker: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fixing-dev-digest
Dev Comments: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/dev-comments
One of my many guilty pleasures is the original Triple-X movie with Vin Diesel. Don't judge me... too harshly.
I have 60 I found quickly. Just a small list that isn't close to complete and I haven't played all of them so if one actually does have breast physics feel free to add it to your list.
9 dragons, AdventureQuest Worlds, Age of Conan, Age of Wulin, Aion, AIKA, Champions Online, Elder Scrolls Online, Dragon Saga, Dragon Quest X, Dragon Oath, Dragon Nest, Dragon Ball Online, Digimon Masters, Dead Frontier, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Drakensang Online, DC online, Crowns of Power, Clone Wars Adventures, Battlestar Galactica Online, Fantasy Frontier Online, ArcheAge, Fallen Earth, Face of Mankind, Fantage, Elsword, Farmville, Fiesta Online, Firefall, Fragoria, Free Realms, GodsWar Online, Hello Kitty Online, Illyriad, Jade Dynasty, Legend of Ares, Space Heroes Universe, Lord of the Rings Online, Marvel Heroes, MonsterMMORPG, Mortal Online, Mythos, Myst Online, Parallel Kingdom, Perpetuum, Phoenix Dynasty Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Pirate101, Puppet Guardian, Realm of the Mad God, Champions of Regnum, Rohan: Blood Feud, Secret World, Star Trek Online, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Trove, Wakfu, WildStar and Minecraft.
Once you give me your 180 MMO list lets discuss the intent behind those games including bouncing breasts, their rating and where they were developed.
I wanted to make sure that was what you meant instead of just assuming because I wasn't sure.
About that article. I'm sorry but it only speaks to a singular type of objectification and one little girls response to it. While I feel it is commendable that little girl has a grasp of obvious objectification the subject goes much deeper than a cartoon in a swimsuit. Aspect even grown adults have trouble comprehending much less a 7 year old.
If you are up to it, read [url=http://www.sanchezlab.com/pdfs/FredricksonRoberts.pdf]this[/url] or [url=https://www.bustle.com/articles/38418-jessica-williams-destroys-nice-cat-calling-on-the-daily-show-because-intent-doesnt-matter]this[/url] and this video makes some good points even if it isn't completely applicable:
[youtube]dszVJI-IX9I[/youtube]
This is a very deep rabbit hole that gets miles away from the question of including breast physics or not in a superhero game. That's what we are discussing here, if breasts should bounce in CoT and not the massive topic of objectification and harassment.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be patronizing but rereading it I can see how it looks like that. I was trying to explain her point while offering support to her. I should have said 'Nadira does not want the increase to what is acceptable and those it [b]might[/b] bring in. [b]While I don't agree with her on that point I understand it is a valid opinion.[/b]'
We don't have to define them or pinpoint who will behave inappropriately in the future. It is enough to know that it will happen and take that knowledge into consideration when making a decision. As i said, I don't think this is a factor but Nadira does.
In regards to breast physics, no I don't take that stand. But it is far from silly. Games exclude things all the time as a preventative measure against unknown portions of the players. Chat filters, nudity, offensive graphics, character name limits and so on.
That's a whole other argument that has a lot more to it than just bewbs. But to offer a counter point, do you think breast physics is important enough to turn it into a stand against immature society?
[img]https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8fadc1d04e3716223292fdc00816543e-c[/img]
[img]http://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2010/09/live-nudes.jpg[/img]
[img]https://goodlogo.com/images/logos/playboy_logo_2598.gif[/img]
[img]http://chaturbatetokens.xxxhacks.com/assets/img/chaturbate.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.dagospia.com/img/foto/06-2011/106440.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article6181361.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/A-prostitute-looks-for-work-in-a-redlight-district.jpg[/img]
Damnit Brainbot....
Now I want Buffalo Wings.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Okay... one thing at a time:
Farmville, seriously? You included Farmville? Why didn't you include Evony and Minecraft while you were at it?
After spending only a few moments on your list, I see five that are already incorrect. Archeage, Wildstar, Age of Conan, Dragon Nest and Jade Dynasty all have breast jiggle. Although, in your defense, Jade Dynasty doesn't do it with physics, they include it as part of the character animation.
You also included games like Space Heroes Universe in which the characters are 2-year-olds in onesies. And you also included Wakfu in which the characters are 2D isometric cutouts.
So if you intend to put a list together, put a serious list together; and don't make me do your research for you.
But before we go on to the next comment, you did put two games in there that are worth repeating: Champions Online and DCUO. Both are superhero games that do not have breast jiggle and that is worth noting.
Actually, I believe that is exactly what we are discussing. If you can't see the connection between the two then we really have nothing further to discuss. Please re-read Nadira's entire post and my response to her post. I think you will see that the issues of objectification and harassment were a core theme. In fact it was the statements Nadira made about these issues that spurred me to write my response in the first place.
I understand Nadira's position. I understand your understanding of Nadira's position. I also agree with you that knowledge should be considered in the decision. I suppose we all just have different weight factors for how much it factors into the decision. I think you and I both give it a negligible weight factor. But then I don't think you or I have ever been on the receiving end of breast jiggle comments IRL. So maybe we're just not as sensitive to the issue as someone who has to face harassment outside the game and has no patience for it in game.
Except for the chat filters, those aren't preventive measures, those are ratings measures to keep an ESRB and PEGI rating.
Hell yes! Nothing is too unimportant to turn it into a stand against immature society. I'm a curmudgeon and I approve this message.
While I appreciate the point you illustrated with those images, I believe you took this out of context. First of all, Nadira was referring to something besides sex that uses sex to sell it. In particular, she was referring to comics and games. The only picture you included that could fit was the one of Hooters. And I think that if Hooters did not have good wings, good burgers and a lot of big screen televisions, they would not have been successful at all. (by the way, I love the dichotomy of the two people over the brunette's shoulders. How could the marketers have allowed that to get by them)
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I did include minecraft.
Breathing animations are not breast physics. That's not semantics, movement and gravity do not play a part.
I was completely serious. Some people ignore things like if breast physics are appropriate for the games art style or intended audience. When I include 2d or 8bit graphic styles it is to show extremes where including breast physics make no sense. If you don't want extremes then consider games with cell shading art styles like the Telltale Walking Dead series,
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a3/Walking_dead_telltale_game_dialog_screenshot.jpg[/img]
Or sat morning cartoon art styles like the Batman Vengeance
[img]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1tvsVjUDld0/hqdefault.jpg[/img]
Maybe Grim Fandango's art deco meets Dia de los Muertos style
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Grim_fandango_remastered_comparison.png[/img]
Perhaps, if you didn't want to feel insulted by my list, you could have set narrower limits on what was acceptable beforehand. See what I did there? To be clear I intend that to be a joke and not a challenge.
Nadira clearly set out her points with this:
She first said that breast jiggle doesn't add realism which you ignore.
Then she expresses concern over the type of gamers this feature attracts, points out how breast physics are still a hot button topic in SJW circles, how sex in games doesn't sell and how the icons that have been held up as examples of good jiggle were originally designed to be titilating. You turned those points into an argument involving sexually attractive and sexually objectified.
Finally she points out her experiences, that other women share, in which men have been inappropriate. She admits that it might be unfair to all men but those experiences have taught her to be wary of the situations she puts herself in and that is why she thinks breast physics will drive away women who share her experiences/opinion. You got offended and told her she was blaming the victim and went to extremes with the burka comment. She isn't by the way, she places the blame squarely on the shoulders of guy's who either don't know or don't care that they are being offensive.
Like I said, she is hyperbolic but she is discussing whether or not breast physics should be included and not the morals of society. That's the lens your viewing it through.
I'm not sure if this counts, but when I was younger I was guilty of making those comments. And something I find even worse because I wasn't a dumb kid anymore, I have been unintentionally inappropriate as well. Most guys will eventually wise up and realize what an ass they have been but by then the damage has already been done.
Stopping someone from calling their character Wolverine is preventative, not allowing someone to create offensive logos is preventative and being careful about a costume creators capability to give the appearance of nudity is preventative.
Alright, but I think trying to force every little thing down the throats of people who are not ready for it only delays the point when they are ready and change actually happens.
Again we are going way off topic here but just for fun I give you the following:
[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uFAAAOxyaTxTSDRU/s-l300.jpg[/img]
[img]http://pcgames-download.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/blood-rayne-2-pc.jpg[/img]
[img]https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/653151.jpg[/img]
[img]http://rzzy0b736k-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ICO0023281.jpg[/img]
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Leisure_Suit_Larry_Collection_Series.jpg[/img]
[img]https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/9116/2020039-8.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.usatoday.net/tech/_photos/2012/06/23/Lollipop-Chainsaw-game-is-bloody-ridiculous-S01MVLLB-x-large.jpg[/img]
[img=640x480]http://pre12.deviantart.net/99e1/th/pre/f/2012/195/4/5/bad_nuns_wip2_by_zayrcroft-d577f30.png[/img]
[img=640x480]http://orig15.deviantart.net/3955/f/2011/269/1/5/15b88207ad68281f551c312685537132-d4b07tu.png[/img]
[img=640x480]http://i.imgur.com/GVN44OC.png[/img]
I would also like to point out the multitudes of purchasable alternate costumes in games like this one from Vindictus.
[img=640x480]https://coubsecure-s.akamaihd.net/get/b73/p/coub/simple/cw_timeline_pic/18e13080602/aea949812ec2eb19c59cc/med_1419473502_image.jpg[/img]
I could go on and on about how entertainment has used sex as a selling point for so long that it has become a trope and is used/referenced in a self aware manner now. I would rather have used the clip from Jason X when he kills the two hologram campers but it has nudity so instead here are the rules from Scream.
[youtube]IxPQ0gsXXgY[/youtube]
Indeed. And I said as much. I suppose I could have commented on the other things she said, but I didn't fell they warranted a comment. So its not so much that I am viewing it through that lens, it is really more that the statements and connections she made regarding morals and society are what I CHOSE to comment upon.
I feel that treating offensive people as if they were excused from being offensive just because they are statistically present in a cross section of society should not be acceptable. And I think that just because these people may present themselves should not deter us from any course of action unless our personal safety is at risk.
Again with the images. Are you just using this as an excuse to include images? Did you completely miss her point? You include images but you make no assessment of whether or not the game was successful and you make no correlation of whether or not the success was due to the sex or to the content. I thought Nadira clearly stated that it is the content that brings longevity and long-term success to a product, not the sex that was used to get it off the shelves. That was the statement I agreed with. I was not disagreeing that sex sells, so you can stop with the pictures of scantily clad women now.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
"Jiggle Physics" require bones, and there is a bone maximum we can support. As I said before, to add it would be to eliminate support for something else, like capes.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Thank you for clarifying, Doctor. I hope this thread can go into the grave now, since it's more than a little superfluous at this point.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I guess being subtle isn't going to work.
Your feelings on responsibility and societal issues has caused you to see something that wasn't there. Nadira did not make a connection to morals or society you twisted it into that. Nadira did not excuse those guilty of offense or blame the offended you just saw that. All she spoke about was current physics technology, sex in advertising, the target audience for sex in advertising, her experience in real life and wanting a game where she was free from those experiences. You used her [b]unrelated[/b] statements to springboard your own SJW agenda and you did it by blaming her for introducing the subject.
To be clear I am not calling you a SJW. I used that term to illustrate a point. SJW has a negative aura about it but it shouldn't, those whose strive for social justice should be regarded as heroes but all too often those SJW's take the thinnest of ground to make a stand. They turn conversation into manifesto which is what you are doing here.
And, for the record, personal safety is not the only reason to halt a course of action. Ratings on entertainment, fences around private property, indecency laws, locks on doors, safety deposits, stopping your child from swearing, theft prevention devices in stores, copyright laws and so on all presuppose an unknown portion of people will not follow the social contract we live by. Just worrying about personal safety is the way a society behaves in a zombie apocalypse.
Yes it was an excuse to include images, sorta. That's why I said 'just for fun'. And I thought you might pick up on the fact that all of them were anthologies, sequels, dlc or a part of a series and draw some conclusions from that.
Sex becomes linked to content when it is introduced because sex is part of the content. Sex content and other content both work in conjunction to extend interest in their product. Games with good content like The Witcher or Mass Effect can benefit from the inclusion of sex. The Witcher's sex scenes and Mass Effect's branching romance paths act as a reward for continued play and as such do increase how long some players stay interested. Games with bad or buggy content like Ride to Hell: Retribution or Duke Nukem Forever use sex as a reward to extend interest. Other games use sex not only to grab the initial sale but to keep getting sales like Scarlet Blade, Vindictus, and other anime influenced MMOs.
The point is that including sex in a game makes it content and that inclusion has an additive effect not a separate effect.
Note: Scarlet Blade shut down a year ago.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Fans are keeping it alive. http://sb.vendettagn.com/
Boom. Mic drop.
I guess we'll all have to move over to the NIpple Topography thread, now.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
That's the same "weaksauce excuse" the Devs of CoH used to use when they tried to explain why they couldn't do things like this back in the circa 2004 timeframe. At least back in 2004 the software technology of the day was relatively limited which provided a small amount of credence to those specific excuses at the time. But if you seriously think you are suffering under the same exact body model graphical limitations in 2017 that Devs had to accept 12+ years ago then I might have to seriously question your overall competence as "Technical Director" of CoT.
Obviously to implement any kind of "jiggle physics" it would require the use of some of the available animation "bones" in the body models. But to hyperbolically claim that we are still living under the scenario where we'd have to make a binary choice between "breast jiggle or capes" I can only assume you're either still in 2004 in terms of your software knowledge or you're just being obtuse in a ham-fisted attempt to scare the people who don't know any better.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The good Doctor didn't clarify anything - he just tried to scare everybody with the grossly vague strawman that we might literally have to choose between body jiggle and capes. I couldn't think of a more irresponsible thing a Dev could do if I tried.
And as far as "hoping this thread can go into the grave now" can you people honestly look back over the nearly 400 posts this thread has produced so far and honestly think that what the Doctor just said today said was some kind of final nail in the coffin? The Devs of CoT might fumble the ball where it comes to implementing reasonable body physics but that sure as heck won't stop people from talking about it here regardless.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I personally find it hilarious that this thread keeps cycling between lying dormant for a few months then popping back up for a few days to have roughly the same bunch of people rush to post brand new novel-sized responses only to have the whole cycle repeat again a few months later. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
No fair making a decision and telling us about it!
Well shoot. You've gone and called us home for dinner now. Playtime is over for this thread and this entire topic.
Although you did say back in October (https://cityoftitans.com/forum/perky-breasts-cox-vs-co?page=2 post #270) that capes used bones and there is a bone limit, so I suppose this should not be too much of a surprise. I know that as recently as the middle of last year Avelworldcreator was unsure if we would have jiggle or not.
What I find interesting is my own reaction to the news. While all this time I was convinced I didn't care if we had jiggle or not, I find myself disappointed that we will not. I guess we can even fool ourselves sometimes.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
This isn't saying it can't be done, hence why I said "we can support." It's a time/manpower limitation more than anything else. We are limited to using a supported format, because we simply do not have the time nor talent to create a unique one. For good or bad, we are limited to what Unreal Engine and the FBX file format itself can support for the forseeable future.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
It couldn't be that the dev's set cpu/gpu limits on the character model because they are using it elsewhere and including another bone would go above those limits. It must be deception or incompetence.
(Edit- Or what Tyche said)
Heck, going by what are animators are working through, the current bone limit combined with how we want customized weapon animations, putting in the extra bones for this 'feature' quit literally reauires something to be taken away. Personally, I'd much prefer customized weapon animations over some superfluous jiggle.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Everything about software development is a time/manpower compromise. But we don't need Devs tossing out strawmen like "Well if we give you one thing you won't get this other thing that's practically the defining costume item of a superhero game". That's extremely dirty pool.
Obviously you will strive to provide as much content to this game as you can. But don't lower your own personal prestige by couching this situation in terms of "If we make some people happy we'll have to piss EVERYONE else off". This is not a zero-sum game and these kinds of choices don't always have to be an "either/or" compromise.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It's not a strawman at this point however. We really have hit the bone limits here. I have spent weeks arguing with the animators, as Tannim pointed out, over the lack of bones necessary for other functions desired. There are only a few spots left with sufficient bones, one of those being the cape, so it's not as much of a strawman as a warning of how close we're shaving it as/is.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Heck, then I guess the Devs have collectively lied to us about having "far fewer limitations" on things like this in the body models of this game. Do tell how you're managing to add things like hair and clothing animations with all these basic bone limitations? Personally I'd much prefer body models that aren't locked into last decades' limitations over some superfluous weapons that AREN'T intrinsically part of the body models to begin with. What if a player CHOSE to sacrifice whatever these fancy customized weapon animations are IN FAVOR OF some superfluous jiggle?
So much for character customization...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If you literally are running up against bone limits NOW (in a timeframe that for all we know may still be YEARS away from launch) then all I can unfortunately surmise is that you've designed this aspect of the game wrong from its very foundation. What are you going to do 2, 4 or 6 years after launch when you potentially want to add ANYTHING new to the body models? At least the CoH Devs left themselves some room to grow - from this response it's sounding like you didn't.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Are you seriously trying to guilt the devs into changing technical limitations from supporting capes and weapon systems to breast jiggle? That's more than a little crazy, Lothic.
They can't just add extra player skeletons for every weapon system. The amount of increased work that'd generate is ludicrous, and it's just not worth it.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
No I'm not trying to "guilt" them into anything. I'm trying to find out whether they've made a fundamental mistake with the way their body models are going to work, period. We should ALL be worried about this regardless if you like or dislike the specific isolated idea of having body jiggle physics or not.
The lack of "bones" for the body models should NOT be a problem they should be facing this soon before launch - this should only be a problem say 8 or 10 years AFTER launch.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Not including jiggle physics is the wrong decision, in your opinion. Understood. It's still not going to happen.
We set the bone limits years ago, and for good reason. I'd thought this thread would have burned itself out when we said we were not including them, but it continued. So I thought to introduce why we were not including them. And yet even then, it just continues.
The CoH devs had far lower limits than we do, and no, they didn't leave themselves room to grow in this manner. The game when it shipped, and when it shut down, had the same limits in place.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I don't think that's fair.
I like to use driving cars as an illustration of a point related to this.
I have a rear-wheel drive pickup truck, and as you can guess the weight distribution unloaded is predominantly in the front. This means that when roads get slippery I have to drive more cautiously. But I also have an all-wheel drive vehicle with equal weight distributin and a lower center of gravity. Do you think I drive with the same caution in that? of course not.
The way I figure it, it is human nature to asses the situation and give oneself the same margin of safety or comfort level no matter what car they drive. So people with more capabilities end up driving more agressively than people with less capabilities.
You can find examples of the same phenomenon all over the place. It is a fundamental truth. Another example is in electronics. One would think that as electronics get smaller and processing power gets greater, that our designs would get smaller and lighter. In actuality, electronics systems have gotten much heavier. Why? Because we have packed the smaller components in more densely in order to provide more functionality.
This is why I think your comment is unfair. MWM will be giving us far more customization than was ever provided in CoX. Naturally, they have added so much functionality that they have reached the limits of even that. I personally think that animated tails, wings, capes and shoulder pets are far more worthy than some other things and I applaud MWM for setting their priorities accordingly.
But I also hope that at some point in the future the body model/frame is upgraded to include more bones and that body physics becomes a use for them.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Well I suppose there will always have to be games that will notable for being among the "last that didn't include feature X, Y or Z". *shrugs*
You may have set the bone limits year ago (first I heard of that BTW) but clearly you choose a limit that was too low if you're already lacking spare resources to work with BEFORE launch. If you can't change them now that's just sad.
Then how did they add capes, wings and animated tails AFTER launch. The CoH Devs might have ended the game with the same "limits" as it started with, but at least, unlike you it seems, they had planned for having SPARE resources that they were able to use to add to their body models after launch.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Hello, I'm Flesh Forge and I'm a senior character modeler/rigger for City of Titans. Ask me anything about character jiggle physics.
Based on what Doctor Tyche is disclosing to us today it would seem that they are going to be in dire need of upgrading their body model limits BEFORE they even launch.
Hello Flesh Forge. Welcome to the forums. Do you have a couple of spare hours to review over 400+ posts on this thread? Just kidding of course but any questions I've had on this subject have been asked/recorded here for years.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
To quote Hlaine 'Mad' Larkin, "This war just got interesting."
I'm not going to address any of the conversation that has gone before. Let's start from scratch.
Sheesh, this is in no way a matter of poor planning, or not planning for future.
Things had to be taken into account when the bone limit was set, including planning for the future such as the possibility ofmthe character holding two completely different weapons at the same time, all the possible emanation points on the body and held weapons, the amount of customized animations this all requires, tails, wings, extra-limbs, all the customization for the same model for both players and developers to create a huge range of customized appearances, and keeping the data pipeline streamlined sufficiently.
Come on. Oncemall this is pulled together and in the players' hands, it will be an unprecedented level of character customization ever for an mmo, and somehow, the dev team is being accused of poorly planning because superfluous boob jiggle is not in the game. Wow...just...yeah, I'm shocked.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Wow... Well I'm not seriously about to summarize maybe 100+ posts that I've written over the years either.
We might be at an impasse before we even begin. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If you can manage to plan for all that other "stuff" and not even consider the possibility for accounting for something so amazingly unprecedented as "boob jiggle" (which has now existed in various games for almost decades now) then all I can say in response to this is just... yeah, I'm shocked. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am glad you asked. Time to go into the "How CoH did it" memory lane:
The player model in CoH was a pile of assorted parts merged into a single mesh. By being made up of such parts, you could add new parts, so long as the existing ones did not change. If you changed the existing parts, you broke the model. This is why despite adding full head scalars, the older fixed-sized head models remained in the game, for example.
By adding new parts, with their own skeletal demands, they added to the system. These parts added to the skeleton, but did not change what existed beforehand.
We are expected to have them on day 1, and then some. So while, in the future, we will be able to raise the limit, we have some of the same restrictions they did, due to the nature of the way 3d models work. We could not retroactively add boob bounce without breaking the existing models, for example. We already have more animation and skeletal needs than CoH did, and have pushed beyond what they had for a skeleton. But while future growth, addition of newer pieces, is there, we will not restrict what can be there on launch day in order to add the feature.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
We might! You have my full attention though and I am the guy who puts bones in things and makes them bend. Within the bounds of my own NDA I am happy to answer questions, please go ahead.
Here, I'll sum up. Some people want jiggle for various reasons, some people don't want jiggle for various reasons, and the rest are spread along the spectrum between those two points. Dr. Tyche informed everyone that it's not going to happen and cited a specific reason why. There are those in the Pro-Jiggle Camp that are bothered by this and have begun to vocally call into question the business decision(s) that led to this, and informed the rest of us that we should be bothered as well.
In a game we are aiming for a non-mature game rating? I am shocked that people are insistent on it as a must-have feature, honestly.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I'm shocked you think this IS a so-called "mature" feature. That's pretty shortsighted all things considered. Let's just stick to brutally murdering millions of MOBs in all sorts of violent body-ragdollish ways while we're maintaining that "T for teen" rating shall we?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I have to agree. I've been arguing for it for quite a while myself, oftentimes with Lothic, even. As soon as it became clear that it wasn't going to be done (to me, anyways - I missed your earlier post about it, I think) I was like "Oh well, I guess I'll just have to deal. It's not that important anyways."
I'm having a lot of trouble parsing why this thread blew up the way it did, and I'm sorry you have to be on the receiving end of it.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
So you're making sure you have room for other non-specified things that you might want to squeeze into the body model by the time you launch regardless if you currently have room to allow for breast jiggle now or not? Could you make that point any more convoluted?
Why don't you speak plainly here: you have plenty of room for some degree of jiggle physics now yet you're saving those resources for what... a third pair of arms or a buttcape?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think its pretty simple. We're witnessing the five stages of grief.
First comes denial:
Next comes anger:
Next comes bargaining:
The next stage is depression:
, and
and, finally, acceptance.
So I think our brothers and sisters who did not get what they wanted here deserve our compassion and not our criticism.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I was amused by this post, but it appears the jury is still out on that last stage.
Trust me... we ALL missed the "earlier post" because TODAY was the first day any Dev has even vaguely suggested that body jiggle physics of any kind might not be happening.
I get that body jiggle physics is not specifically important to you. But don't you get the actual revelation we've been given here today? If the Devs are lacking having "spare bones" available for their character models NOW that means we're ALL potentially screwed when it comes to getting ANY kind of future body model additions/upgrades. Look past your stupid prejudice for "bouncing boobies" and understand what the Doctor has ACTUALLY told us today.
Please... the Devs of this game are big boys and girls. If they can't explain why they've prioritized certain things over others (like NOT providing their body models with the proper amount of resources to account for future growth/additions to the game) they need to cut their loses and give up now.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Lol... For what it's worth I'll try to come up with the same kind of "sympathy list" when they screw you out of something you wanted. ;)
I'm actually almost disregarding the whole issue of "body jiggle physics" at this point. I'm frankly more worried that they've run out of "body model bones" period. Sure that might mean that body jiggle physics is gone but what else does that mean we won't get?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I still think it's funny you guys aren't reacting to what the good Doctor has ACTUALY told us today. I'm almost willing to say "fuck all" to the narrow topic of body model physics in favor of the news concerning the gross mismanagement and/or misjudgement of general body model resources. Even the Docter himself admitted the Devs have been arguing about that issue themselves. If they can't even afford to spare a couple of bones for breast jiggle what else will they not be able to do?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's a good start, thanks! It is certainly possible to add bouncy bits for things like the breasts and buttocks and a big stomach. These require (at minimum) one bone per jiggly bit, and a certain amount of labor to get the base character mesh to deform reasonably well when the bone is moved, and another certain amount of labor to get the bone to 'bounce' in a reasonably convincing way inside the engine, when the character animates. Ok?
Now we put a clothing item on the character, say a shirt. Each of these extra bones for bounce needs to be duplicated in the shirt. Their deformation will not be exactly the same because we have a looser-fitting shirt. Each of these deformations has to be reviewed and probably adjusted so they don't mangle the shirt. Each of them has to be reviewed and probably adjusted in the engine to make sure they all produce a reasonably convincing 'bounce'.
Now we put another costume piece over the shirt, say a shoulder holster for a gun. Each of the extra bones for the bounce needs to be duplicated in the holster. Their deformation won't be the same as the character OR the shirt because again, the holster is shaped differently. They have to be reviewed and probably adjusted again. Each of these needs to be reviewed and probably adjusted again to make sure the bounce doesn't make the holster intersect the shirt.
Now we put on a pair of pants. Again we have a lot of extra labor that must be done.
And now we put on some sort of hip decoration, say a fanny pack. All that extra labor has to be done here too.
And then we add a morph to the base character that makes the bouncy bit larger, like perhaps a breast size morph. What happens to all that work? Good question, I'm glad you asked that, and here's the answer: it all has to be reviewed again, and adjusted wherever it breaks and does not produce acceptable results.
And we add another morph to the base character, perhaps to make a fat belly. Guess what! All that labor needs to be reviewed and adjusted again where necessary. Repeat this for all the significant morphs, and we've already shown we're going to have a lot of these.
e: And what happens when we let you mix these morphs, which we are going to allow you to do? [b]Everything[/b] has to be reviewed and adjusted [b]again[/b], it starts to get really [b]really[/b] difficult to make it all work together when you're allowed to mix morphs.
As the guy who does this stuff, please let me assure you this is a vast amount of labor to get working together in a variety of combinations. Aside from whatever else has been discussed about aesthetic concerns and bone count budget limitations, really it is a [b]gigantic[/b] amount of extra labor to give you bouncy bits. I would really like to give you the bouncy bits, don't get me wrong, but oh gosh it's a gigantic amount of labor and time. Everyone underestimates how much labor and time this stuff requires. This is why other games do not allow you to mix and match costume parts, and why they rarely give you any drastic morphs that really change the base shape of the character. Even in a really big production like TERA or Vindictus, with their huge character art departments and gigantic cash budgets, do not allow you to mix and match costume parts or drastically reshape your character with morphs. If the characters were all the same shape and they all walked around naked all the time, or the costume set was very limited and inflexible, it would be more doable but it really is a gigantic amount of work and time to add and to do it well in our case.
"How big is your character art department," you're asking, "and how large is your budget?" A lot smaller than Bluehole's or Pearl Abyss's! :)
Lol... Oh well, at least you're trying.
For what it's worth people have only been throwing up the "smokescreens" of having potential hip, belly, buttock, etc. jiggle as a means to discredit the only kind of jiggle that most people want to start off with here... breast jiggle. Sure in some far flung future it might be nice to have body models that jiggle everywhere but even I (gasp!) would admit that trying to implement full body jiggle all at once in this game would require far too much in time/resources so it's clearly an unrealistic goal for CoT probably even after launch.
Sadly if what Doctor Tyche is saying about the lack of body model bones is correct it would seem you guys have far more to worry about than whether you could even squeeze breast jiggle into the game much less full body jiggle. I'm sorry to hear that you've worked yourselves into a proverbial corner before the game has even launched. Good luck to you...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Mmmm nope, as a senior character modeler/rigger I'm pretty cool saying we can deliver nice looking characters and costume options. Sorry I am not able to give you the answer that you want, but I don't think you can point to any game that is even in the general vicinity of character options we're committed to giving you, plus bouncy bits, and we're working on this with a minuscule budget compared to all the titles named earlier in the thread.
I'm curious what bone reliant character model additions other than jiggle Lothic is worried might not get included? It's not a challenge, its an honest question.
Rationalization via boiler-plate Devspeak is really the least helpful way to respond to this situation. I'm getting pretty close to "put up or shut up" as far as what we're supposedly going to be getting from this game. Perhaps if you can finally "wow" us with all the promises you guys have been making over the years I'll be far, far more willing to overlook the likely omission of what even I'll admit is a purely cosmetic detail.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That is a curious thought. I mean, bones for us already covers:
clothing
cape
Wings
Backpack arms
Hair
On top of the base skeleton.
How many of you realized that hair and clothing need bones in it? Here's a picture from another game, showing the clothing and hair bones they need:
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/594781154006204865/E2DD7618D4FCBCDD5D9FEBEDEE0AD959425D8C7D/[/img]
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Thank you for at least supporting my concern about this. Regardless of whether you individually care about body jiggle or not I really want to know what's "so important" that's not already accounted for in the current allocation of body resources. This issue should seriously worry EVERYONE here regardless if you're pro or anti-jiggle.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I know that in games such as Skyrim, modders have created new skeletons with added nodes and such to quite an extent past what was originally available in game. I realize that these are client-side mods since they are essentially solo games, but swapping to a new skeleton doesn't automatically break clothing and such - it's just that they don't take advantage of it until clothing with all the added bones and nodes and such become available.
That in mind, is it possible that such a thing could be done in the future as long as the new nodes and bones are added to what's there and none removed?
I'm all in favor of getting all we can get of what's possible at launch, but having things future-proofed to an extent that improving things won't break everything else.
I don't know if any of those modders have been contacted to see if they'd be willing to help out, but I sure do know that there is some talent there.
(insert pithy comment here)
I don't understand what you mean Lothic when you say 'I really want to know what's "so important" that's not already accounted for in the current allocation of body resources'. I mean I don't see anything that isn't accounted for but I admit I could be missing something.
It's not so much what which is important, as where. We have a bone budget for each section of the body, to allow for swapping out. The one section which cannot be swapped out, however, is the upper torso/chest area, as everything hangs off of it. So, our options for where to steal bones from is very limited. If we steal the kinetic bones, the arms and shoulders will not look right when you animate them. If we steal the scaling bones, then we cannot resize the chest or neck. This leaves the backpiece as the area we can steal bones from. I used the cape as the most obvious example, but stealing bones from there would also eliminate them from the backpack arms setup and the wings.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I realized that they do. I knew that years ago...
Knowing that you already had far more bones to work with than they did in CoH it frankly amazes/infuriates me that you choose not to allocate the mere couple of bones you'd need for REASONABLE/SUBTLE natural breast jiggle from among the HUGE increase you got from CoH. I really am amazed...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Certainly, what would you like to see? Some of the morphs we're going to deliver and how they're allowed to combine? This is some earlier WIP demonstration of some of the morphs (apologies that it's not very dramatic, these were a straight technical demonstration and weren't really done for PR purposes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFKTrmf9Uk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zETiAUL1mSk
Here's an example clothing set (pieces of this can be mixed and matched):
[img]http://i.imgur.com/4oUOfvl.png[/img]
What else would you like to see? I don't have free reign to post WIP samples of everything but I'll see what I can show.
It is technically possible to add this kind of thing in the future, sure. The amount of labor required to actually implement it is not made less though. It isn't that we don't know how to do this, here's a model I had done separately from MWM (note this is not a City of Titans character asset, but my own work):
[img]http://i.imgur.com/OXQA1yK.gif[/img]
It's the labor required to add this kind of deformation to every combination of clothing, and then morphs for these clothing items. It is [b]VAST[/b].
Instead we chose to use that increase for clothing, articulated hands, hair which moves, that kind of thing.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
And when the amount of labor is so great, the decision was made not to allocate resources for it, and to instead focus those resources elsewhere.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Wow. If that amount of customization is going to be in CoT, and if it is done well, then I think you will be setting the new gold standard for another generation.
Elsewhere, like posting on the forums instead of working on the models!? Tell Flesh Forge to get his non-jiggly bottom back to work!
I kid. seriously, I kid. I couldn't resist. I understand that was your call to bring him or her on here to address some vocal and upset core constituents and I think the input Flesh Forge has provided significantly helped us all to understand the issues better. ...okay, maybe not ALL of us.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I'm all for the "jiggle physics" for any part of the body. We've seriously discussed it internally and not with hostility either. It makes characters more lifelike which we want but right now we can't do it to any serious degree. Let's get the first pass of the characters working and start adding any "perks" later as we can. This is a legitimate idea but right now the resources to explore it are lacking.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
Exactly. What else could they possibly be keeping any spare bone resources in reserve for?
It's almost like we're in gym class picking people for dodgeball and the Devs are team captains. They've already picked (prioritized) all the best players (features) and are now down to what they must consider is the worst players (among them breast jiggle). Now we know they have room on their team (body model bones) for even this "worst" player and we know they've quite literally accounted for everything else (all the other students). Why are they trying to avoid picking breast jiggle using the excuse they want to make sure they leave room for something that might be more important that might magically appear in the future? What else could come along that would be of a higher priority than breast jiggle at this point?
Sadly the Devs responding in this thread are simply "handwaving" an answer to that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
And it literally took you something like 450 posts to say that in a plain, single sentence. Remind me not to ask you what time it is because I'd likely get the answer a few years later. ;)
P.S. Don't worry... I'm still not going to STOP talking about this no matter what you do. Some of the best updates in CoH came from forumites who kept annoying the Devs about things so much that I'm sure the CoH Devs caved in just to -finally- shut those people up.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
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