Discuss: DW Animations between Male and Female

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: DW Animations between Male and Female

Our second Developer's Workshop, or DW for short. Over time we'll start using these more frequently, as a way of showing you exciting but rough little insights and reveals.

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Good stuff! What about

Good stuff! What about getting animations to look right on a variety of body sizes and proportions? Or is that the next challenge?

As always, I really appreciate the What to Look For and What to Ignore sections.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Keep up the good work keeping

Keep up the good work keeping us informed! Things are really starting to come together, it seems like.

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First look: I liked it very

First look: I liked it very much and for now still do. I'll recheck it a million times now but I really like the feeling of the whole animation/body/hair.

The hairs immediately got my attention, on both male and female, they seem the kind of hairs I like in some recent games online. At begin (years ago) I didn't think you'll reach this kind of graphics, you leave me surprised recently.
Still I'd like to remember you the animations are the "funny" part of the graphics, those are very important (more than everything else where graphics is related), but for now your animations seem fine enough already and will be polished too so those can only improve.

About the animated punch, in particular I like the way it goes much forward like there is the will to hit something that may be at some distance. Very often, online games (like Elder Scrolls Online and The Secret World, recently) got a very bad basic-melee-animations imho because the characters seem to hit themselves instead of some opponent in front of them, the sword attacks or punches in those games got no "dash", they seem to capture insects instead of willing to hit something and break it. Your attacks in this test already got a "fun" part, the arm is not "curved" on it self, but well extended and fast enough, it seems dangerous like it should be.

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I love seeing little tidbits

I love seeing little tidbits like this. Especially nice to see the female model in action, even briefly. And also nice to see some hair physics, even if they're not final.

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even unpolished the hair

even unpolished the hair physics is better then city of heroes. nice to see the work is coming out good.

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Every new revelation is

Every new revelation is exciting! step by step this game is congealing into a new home.

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Animations are a good thing,

Animations are a good thing, I like the progress. Not to harp on the bad that is apparent with the good, but something's been bugging me about the character models I've been seeing so far. I think in both examples (male and female) in this video, as in some of the other videos I've seen, the heads look slightly over-sized on the bodies they're on. The proportions you're using might be a good representation of "average" for humans, for all I know, but I don't think they look the same as what a comic book character looks like usually. I would expect a smaller head, or a larger body, or a little of both to make it look a little better. The Exactly Average sized person, after all, is a statistical anomaly. You don't see a lot of people of that particular size, you see a lot of people that are taller and a lot that are shorter, and the average is somewhere in between.

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I'm just glad the avatars are

I'm just glad the avatars are based on comics and not "The Incredibles."

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Animations are a good thing, I like the progress. Not to harp on the bad that is apparent with the good, but something's been bugging me about the character models I've been seeing so far. I think in both examples (male and female) in this video, as in some of the other videos I've seen, the heads look slightly over-sized on the bodies they're on. The proportions you're using might be a good representation of "average" for humans, for all I know, but I don't think they look the same as what a comic book character looks like usually. I would expect a smaller head, or a larger body, or a little of both to make it look a little better. The Exactly Average sized person, after all, is a statistical anomaly. You don't see a lot of people of that particular size, you see a lot of people that are taller and a lot that are shorter, and the average is somewhere in between.

Don't think of it as "exactly average". Think of it as "every morph slider at the center point of its full range". They still have to set the defaults, I imagine.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Animations are a good thing, I like the progress. Not to harp on the bad that is apparent with the good, but something's been bugging me about the character models I've been seeing so far. I think in both examples (male and female) in this video, as in some of the other videos I've seen, the heads look slightly over-sized on the bodies they're on. The proportions you're using might be a good representation of "average" for humans, for all I know, but I don't think they look the same as what a comic book character looks like usually. I would expect a smaller head, or a larger body, or a little of both to make it look a little better. The Exactly Average sized person, after all, is a statistical anomaly. You don't see a lot of people of that particular size, you see a lot of people that are taller and a lot that are shorter, and the average is somewhere in between.

I must admit to thinking the same thing, the head proportions I've seen so far seem a bit large.

Its hard to do a precise check from this latest animation where the body is hunched over, the knees are bent and the head is held low, but a rough glance suggests the "Rule of Heads" is a bit off with this body being at about 5-6 heads tall when the proportions are generally accepted to be right in the 7-8 heads length.

I've wondered if its been a deliberate scaling choice while working on face animations and they've just left that the current default scale for the rest of the body work.

But mostly I'm thrilled to see these smooth animations and of course the hair is a welcome addition!

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I think it looks pretty good

I think it looks pretty good too; however, maybe it is the viewing angle, but I thought the legs looked a little short for the body. It could be just me. I have been on Paragon Chat a lot lately and CoH did tend to have a longer than normal leg.

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Bear in mind, between all the

Bear in mind, between all the body presets and all the sliders, the default (sliders at exact middle) isn't actually going to mean much.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Bear in mind, between all the body presets and all the sliders, the default (sliders at exact middle) isn't actually going to mean much.

I think it'll be more important that the game allow a reasonably large range of body settings so that people will be free to create as many sizing proportions as they want.

While it might make some sense that a 100% "middle of the road" default setting male or female ought to fall in line with standard artistic guidelines (like the "Rule of Heads" Baalumbral mentioned) there's actually no real requirement that the body models follow any specific rule like that as a default. As long as the game would allow you to (as a completely optional choice) follow such rules if you want that's fine.

In other words if you feel that your characters must conform to something like the "Rule of Heads" then the game should allow you to make your characters perfectly conform to that. But that doesn't mean that the "neutral" settings of the body models must automatically adhere to any such conformity.

I want to be free to follow body proportion rules if I choose... I don't want to have to be stuck with those rules I -don't- want to follow.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Um, okay, but what I noticed

Um, okay, but what I noticed is that IRL, feet don't slide during a punch. They're planted, to carry the weight and traction forward into the punch. Not rooted, since a person can still change stances, or feint a punch and do something other than follow through. These animations just look a bit odd, from the way the feet move during the punch. It's almost like the Model is trying to stay centered in the camera, during the punch, and they're pushing the ground around, in order to do it.

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Agree with Fire here. LoC

Agree with Fire here. LoC solidarity. Ah...it's great that the animation can work across both the male and female skeletons. I wished you'd have used a more finished animation. Overall, this update gives a very poor impression. I'm sure a lot of people are going to click the video link and see, frankly, a lackluster video, then not bother reading the rest. Not your best effort. If you are looking for big money in an upcoming crowdfunding round. This is not the way to get it.

Sorry for giving you such a critical critique.

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I agree, I'm glad that the

I agree, I'm glad that the Animation and Models are well-written enough that they translate across different models, that part is Super, but the Animation itself is less than satisfying.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Agree with Fire here. LoC solidarity. Ah...it's great that the animation can work across both the male and female skeletons. I wished you'd have used a more finished animation. Overall, this update gives a very poor impression. I'm sure a lot of people are going to click the video link and see, frankly, a lackluster video, then not bother reading the rest. Not your best effort. If you are looking for big money in an upcoming crowdfunding round. This is not the way to get it.
Sorry for giving you such a critical critique.
*Bites an apple and grabs the spit*

I think it's pretty much on par with the rest of their "proof of concept" or "this is what we can do" videos.

I'm sure that they will polish it up for actual promotional material, especially for their next crowdfunding round.

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I hope you're right about

I hope you're right about that Blacke4Dawn, and I hope they get lots of extra funds from past and new supporters. Either way I enjoyed the update, but I'd have to agree on the part where they looked weird moving around mid punch.

Having said that, it was difficult to tell if there was a walking animation happening at the same time or not. When looking at it closely the right leg plants as the left leg seems to move in a way to almost lunge the punch, signifying the enemy is at a distance. It would be interesting to see that punch happen to an enemy that is within arms length. That is, to see if the character stands-plants-punches, or still goes in for the moving lunge jab seen in the video.

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For everyone here commenting

For everybody commenting on the "unfinished" look of this punch animation all I can say is that you probably don't remember just how rough CoH looked a year or so before it was officially launched. I know it's hard but we're still at the point where we have to reasonably cut MWM a large amount of slack over things like this.

I'm not going to automatically assume everything about CoT will look 100% perfect a year from now. But given how much polish CoH received before launch I think it's far, far too early to assume this is not going to receive a similar amount of fine-tuning. Whining about how this looks in August 2017 is semi-pointless - I'm not really going to be hyper-critical about things like this until it's like August 2018 or beyond.

Remember this game hasn't even started open beta testing yet - there are likely 10,000+ more important things to worry about at this point than whether the unisex punch animation is perfectly groomed or not. *shrugs*

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Shadow Elusive wrote:
Bear in mind, between all the body presets and all the sliders, the default (sliders at exact middle) isn't actually going to mean much.

Lothic wrote:

I want to be free to follow body proportion rules if I choose... I don't want to have to be stuck with those rules I -don't- want to follow.

The "rules" cannot be resolved by player's customization even in the case of several "sliders" possibilities, because there will be a world around you and hundreds of npcs. Even if I build the most perfectly body ever created for my character, if the whole world around it will be composed by monkeys or dwarves or giants (compared to my char or worse, the buildings/doors) the possibilities become:
1) Re-create the character so that it will meet my expectations, for example if it's supposed to be "normal" I'll re-create it so it won't seem too high or short or "different" in general compared to the artistic "normal body" used for all the npcs.
2) Uninstall if even the first attempt fails. It means there is an unacceptable and very visible defect in the proportions used by default for the npcs which make me impossible to accept that "normality".

The 2nd point shouldn't happen in the majority of cases, but still it did for several games in the past, even famous ones, and it tend to happen more often in online games than single-player ones (wonder why, quality and attention to details goes down in production for the massive aspect and the others online features).

Summary: sliders are not the perfect solution so that City of Titans developers just need to provide us with customization and can underestimate the problem.
Body proportions and animations will be in front of the player the whole time during the game experience through the player's character, fighting opponents and npcs. We can customize only one of these things. Even the textures quality may be low or hi-res but still won't affect the "fun" or be heavy on an "uninstall" decision like the body and animations, which the user knows won't get any update or change even after months (very unlikely and if in some mmorpgs animations or body proportions got any update, it came when the game was desert already or very old). This is something that needs to be done pre-launch (even if just the week before it, since we all know this part gets perfected as last one and rightfully so since it's the "shell" of the game).

The only solution imho: The devs must try and try and try again till they think the basic body is close to perfect for their intended style, and even if perfection cannot be achieved and beauty is subjective/personal, when you at least try to achieve it you'll notice nobody will uninstall the game because of errors in proportions that cannot be ignored (which would mean heavy issues, slight ones can be ignored by all and are usually just a personal artistic view in most cases). They can reach a "style", but a style is good till it's used on everything in the world (an error is no style) and a human doesn't transform in a monkey/scimpanzè or an alien with egg-head even if it's supposed to be normal^^.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I want to be free to follow body proportion rules if I choose... I don't want to have to be stuck with those rules I -don't- want to follow.

The "rules" cannot be resolved by player's customization even in the case of several "sliders" possibilities, because there will be a world around you and hundreds of npcs. Even if I build the most perfectly body ever created for my character, if the whole world around it will be composed by monkeys or dwarves or giants (compared to my char or worse, the buildings/doors) the possibilities become:
1) Re-create the character so that it will meet my expectations, for example if it's supposed to be "normal" I'll re-create it so it won't seem too high or short or "different" in general compared to the artistic "normal body" used for all the npcs.
2) Uninstall if even the first attempt fails. It means there is an unacceptable and very visible defect in the proportions used by default for the npcs which make me impossible to accept that "normality".
The 2nd point shouldn't happen in the majority of cases, but still it did for several games in the past, even famous ones, and it tend to happen more often in online games than single-player ones (wonder why, quality and attention to details goes down in production for the massive aspect and the others online features).
Summary: sliders are not the perfect solution so that City of Titans developers just need to provide us with customization and can underestimate the problem.
Body proportions and animations will be in front of the player the whole time during the game experience through the player's character, fighting opponents and npcs. We can customize only one of these things. Even the textures quality may be low or hi-res but still won't affect the "fun" or be heavy on an "uninstall" decision like the body and animations, which the user knows won't get any update or change even after months (very unlikely and if in some mmorpgs animations or body proportions got any update, it came when the game was desert already or very old). This is something that needs to be done pre-launch (even if just the week before it, since we all know this part gets perfected as last one and rightfully so since it's the "shell" of the game).
The only solution imho: The devs must try and try and try again till they think the basic body is close to perfect for their intended style, and even if perfection cannot be achieved and beauty is subjective/personal, when you at least try to achieve it you'll notice nobody will uninstall the game because of errors in proportions that cannot be ignored (which would mean heavy issues, slight ones can be ignored by all and are usually just a personal artistic view in most cases). They can reach a "style", but a style is good till it's used on everything in the world (an error is no style) and a human doesn't transform in a monkey/scimpanzè or an alien with egg-head even if it's supposed to be normal^^.

I never said the Devs shouldn't try for the "best" possible defaults possible (for both PCs and NPCs). But then again what is "best" is always going to be a subjective goal among the many players of any given MMO.

The Devs will never be able to satisfy everyone with whatever defaults they do provide so as long as the system is as adjustable as possible then it'll have the best possible chance to make everyone happy with their own PCs. Frankly I question how many people will care to the degree you seem to when it comes to the NPCs. For your sake I suspect the game will at least allow you to "tinker" with the PC body settings enough to make it work enough for whatever degree of perfection your wish to have.

If you don't like how the NPCs will look despite being able to make your own characters as you'd like then that's going to be your problem regardless of what MWM does. As for me as long as my own characters look like how I want them to look I almost couldn't care less that some NPCs may look a little "goofy" here or there. Except for important named NPCs most of the rest of the MOBs around me tend to die way too quickly to worry about it. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

The "rules" cannot be resolved by player's customization even in the case of several "sliders" possibilities, because there will be a world around you and hundreds of npcs. Even if I build the most perfectly body ever created for my character, if the whole world around it will be composed by monkeys or dwarves or giants (compared to my char or worse, the buildings/doors) the possibilities become:
1) Re-create the character so that it will meet my expectations, for example if it's supposed to be "normal" I'll re-create it so it won't seem too high or short or "different" in general compared to the artistic "normal body" used for all the npcs.
2) Uninstall if even the first attempt fails. It means there is an unacceptable and very visible defect in the proportions used by default for the npcs which make me impossible to accept that "normality".
The 2nd point shouldn't happen in the majority of cases, but still it did for several games in the past, even famous ones, and it tend to happen more often in online games than single-player ones (wonder why, quality and attention to details goes down in production for the massive aspect and the others online features).
Summary: sliders are not the perfect solution so that City of Titans developers just need to provide us with customization and can underestimate the problem.
Body proportions and animations will be in front of the player the whole time during the game experience through the player's character, fighting opponents and npcs. We can customize only one of these things. Even the textures quality may be low or hi-res but still won't affect the "fun" or be heavy on an "uninstall" decision like the body and animations, which the user knows won't get any update or change even after months (very unlikely and if in some mmorpgs animations or body proportions got any update, it came when the game was desert already or very old). This is something that needs to be done pre-launch (even if just the week before it, since we all know this part gets perfected as last one and rightfully so since it's the "shell" of the game).
The only solution imho: The devs must try and try and try again till they think the basic body is close to perfect for their intended style, and even if perfection cannot be achieved and beauty is subjective/personal, when you at least try to achieve it you'll notice nobody will uninstall the game because of errors in proportions that cannot be ignored (which would mean heavy issues, slight ones can be ignored by all and are usually just a personal artistic view in most cases). They can reach a "style", but a style is good till it's used on everything in the world (an error is no style) and a human doesn't transform in a monkey/scimpanzè or an alien with egg-head even if it's supposed to be normal^^.

You're reading way too much into what Shadow Elusive said. "Sliders at exact middle" means what it says, and no more. It's purely mathematical. It has no bearing on what the player character or NPC presets will be once they're defined.

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The boxing animation was just

The boxing animation was just a convenient clip to grab to see if an animation would behave the same on each one. All feedback is welcome, just remember it's normal to need that kind of work. Which, of course, is why it's welcome.

Changing the model's Zero point is hard, it has a cascading effect on every piece of clothing we make. Making a default preset that ISN'T at zero to meet whatever turns out to be the preferred starting point, is easy. We've made a very flexible model that can meet whatever expectations we need to. That's why we spent so much time on it. So tell us what you don't like, please. But don't worry about it.

As it happens, we're very much in need of animation specialists, if anyone can arrange it. And, while I'm at it, clothing modelers. We can't have too much of those.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

As it happens, we're very much in need of animation specialists, if anyone can arrange it. And, while I'm at it, clothing modelers. We can't have too much of those.

Would this request get more visibility in the Volunteer Recruitment forum?

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I've heard back from the

I've heard back from the model maker. There is heavy perspective distortion at work here. The model's actual proportions are like this:

Much better yes? There's a setting or two that can help avoid this sort of thing, apparently. DW's are internal vids so that may not always happen for these though. From now on the What to Ignore will call it out when present. Missed it this time.

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Yes, much better. Thanks for

Yes, much better. Thanks for clarifying. I am still pumped for this game.

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If you notice my first

If you notice my first comment says I liked the video very much, the animation, the hairs etc. Just because I wrote a long post doesn't mean anything more that what's specified in it, nowhere I said I disliked the body proportions in the video, it can be improved (for my personal artistic style the legs are too short, also for the "comics standard" which is why City of Heroes even exaggerated a little on legs stretching and still it was fine) but it's already good enough at this point and of course there is so much time till the release and this aspect can be perfected at a much later stage.

I just wanted to point out the "body proportions" and "animations" are no secondary matter you can underestimate by listing the reasons too.

Lothic seemed to be directed to a dangerous way of thinking imho, I may summarize in "this is no issue because we got customization". That may lead to disaster imho, even more in a game where the devs themselves know they will really give us powerful means to customize our character, visually+powers+story. There is an high risk they may already underestimate the value of the base body proportions of the npcs and opponents since they give us heavy customization and don't need to be encouraged on that.
I know for experience that customization won't do anything to solve an heavy error on animations or body (I repeat: heavy, which is not the case here at the moment, but it may be in future).

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The actual proportions seem

The actual proportions seem to be short on the legs or is it just me?

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Now, those character models

Now, those character models look great. I was a bit concerned about the shoulders/chest in some of the vids/pics I've seen but that looks much better.

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So in the CC or AB depending

So in the CC or AB depending on your vernacular. Is there a place you can list the character height and then as a tool tip say the average door is this height. I think door heights are something every understands very well and that would make a good reference.

Or, if we have interchangeable scenes in the CC, have one be a shop front with a door. So you can see "my character is a foot taller than the average door and that is exactly what I'm looking for" or "my character looks like a weee elf so I need to tweak some settings.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

So in the CC or AB depending on your vernacular. Is there a place you can list the character height and then as a tool tip say the average door is this height. I think door heights are something every understands very well and that would make a good reference.
Or, if we have interchangeable scenes in the CC, have one be a shop front with a door. So you can see "my character is a foot taller than the average door and that is exactly what I'm looking for" or "my character looks like a weee elf so I need to tweak some settings.

I think having a character height display would be enough. So as long as they have that, I think it would work out. I like making my characters average height, maybe a bit taller depending on the type of character I build.

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You're talking about a

You're talking about a 'context piece' - some element that gives context to your character's height. This has been discussed, and will continue to be considered as we go along. Comes down to what works best, but it's a feature we've thought of and consider a good one.

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As long as you don't go crazy

As long as you don't go crazy and add a door, wall, house plant, painting, etc. Sometimes a simple cc works best when building a character.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

Lothic seemed to be directed to a dangerous way of thinking imho, I may summarize in "this is no issue because we got customization". That may lead to disaster imho, even more in a game where the devs themselves know they will really give us powerful means to customize our character, visually+powers+story. There is an high risk they may already underestimate the value of the base body proportions of the npcs and opponents since they give us heavy customization and don't need to be encouraged on that.

Talk about a "dangerous way of thinking". You're essentially assuming that the Devs of this game would effectively "not give a crap" about how their final characters look body proportion wise and that's amazingly silly to think that given what we've seen thus far. Do you seriously think these Devs would just let something as fundamental as that go unaddressed?

No, to be clear what I was saying was that ABOVE AND BEYOND whatever the Devs do to try to make their body models be as perfect as possible we will ALSO have the capability to tweak things based on our own liking. I wasn't assuming we would have to use the slider adjustments because the Devs are not going to bother to give us good defaults - I was simply making the point that if you (for whatever reason) didn't like the defaults that you'd be able to change them any way you'd want.

Just because the defaults may end up (after all the beta test grooming) to be "perfect" as far a most would be concerned doesn't mean some people still won't like them. The sliders aren't going to a substitute for whatever hard work the Devs will give us. But even the final result of that hard work still won't make everyone happy - thus the entire reason the sliders are there in the first place. One person's perfection can always be made -more- perfect in the eyes of another beholder.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The actual proportions seem to be short on the legs or is it just me?

Actually the legs are ~10% longer than a real person's, ratio-wise.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The actual proportions seem to be short on the legs or is it just me?

No, it's not you. Human proportions, especially in art, are generally measured in "heads"; the height of the head determines the relative size of various dimensions of the body of the drawn character. (See http://www.creativecomicart.com/measuring-human-proportion.html).

The grid behind the models is 10cm/square. Based on those pictures, the male model is ~7.5 heads high, which is normal human proportion but a little less than the 8 heads that is used in drawings, such as comics. However, the legs should be about 4 heads, and are actually about 3.6 heads, which makes him look a little stocky. The female model is better: ~8.5 heads high and legs are 4 heads; the legs ought to be about 4.25 heads to be in drawn proportion. The difference is smaller so she looks better.

Hopefully these proportions are fiddle-able with the various sliders.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Actually the legs are ~10% longer than a real person's, ratio-wise.

Maybe, but the math doesn't seem to agree. But regardless, there is the difference between what is average, and what we are presented as average in media and comic books, which are not exactly the same :)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
The actual proportions seem to be short on the legs or is it just me?
Actually the legs are ~10% longer than a real person's, ratio-wise.

Ah ok. Thanks! ^_^

Edited to include Zaran's post: I agree, as long as we can edit the height of the legs with sliders, im happy.

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Change the portion with

Change the portion with sliders... oh... yeah......

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Change the portion with sliders... oh... yeah......

I figured :D

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
The actual proportions seem to be short on the legs or is it just me?
Actually the legs are ~10% longer than a real person's, ratio-wise.

I think I recall having a discussion with you and others about why that's the case, actually. It's always fascinating to learn the counter-intuitive reasons for doing things a certain way.

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Zaran wrote:
Zaran wrote:

No, it's not you. Human proportions, especially in art, are generally measured in "heads"; the height of the head determines the relative size of various dimensions of the body of the drawn character. (See http://www.creativecomicart.com/measuring-human-proportion.html).

The grid behind the models is 10cm/square. Based on those pictures, the male model is ~7.5 heads high, which is normal human proportion but a little less than the 8 heads that is used in drawings, such as comics. However, the legs should be about 4 heads, and are actually about 3.6 heads, which makes him look a little stocky. The female model is better: ~8.5 heads high and legs are 4 heads; the legs ought to be about 4.25 heads to be in drawn proportion. The difference is smaller so she looks better.

Hopefully these proportions are fiddle-able with the various sliders.

As Doctor Tyche confirmed all of these things will be "fiddle-able" with the sliders so the folks out there who want their characters to strictly match up with the "Rule of Heads" 100% will be able to do so whether or not the "middle of the road" default body settings match up with that or not. As I suspected with my earlier posts in this thread this is likely going to be one of those "pre-beta issues" that no one will end up worrying about once this game launches. People need to realize (and I really can't over empathize this enough) that what we are seeing now is NOT how the characters are going to look at launch.

Frankly I think people here are freaking out way too much about the "Rule of Heads" thing. If you want to make characters in CoT that embody classical human body proportion perfection then the only thing you need to worry about is whether the game will SUPPORT that via sliders and we already know it will. But if you're like me and are planning on creating NOT ONLY perfect human bodies but ALSO bodies that might look like the following:

then the need for the game to FORCE us into using only Rule of Head proportions is a bit silly and at the very least unnecessary. I plan on making characters of all shapes and sizes - I don't need any esoteric art "rules of thumb" to restrict me into believing that body shapes in this game must conform to only one predefined esthetic.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Another picture from the

Another picture from the modeler, this time with a head height diagram

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Another picture from the modeler, this time with a head height diagram

These look quite acceptable especially since you still have roughly a year's worth of beta testing before these have to become the official launch versions. For those players who are totally locked into the "Rule of Heads" thing it looks like all you might have to do here is stretch their legs up or down a tick or two. *shrugs*

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Maybe there can be (at least)

Maybe there can be (at least) two preset body model options: Realistic and Comic Book. Just to serve as selectable starting points before the fiddling begins.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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One wonders how many actual

One wonders how many actual people fit the 'head' rule. I'd imagine fewer than you'd think.

As long as we have a standard preset and sliders for all the things (plus a reset button for when I accidentally do something that I can't figure out how to undo) that will be more than sufficient. We somehow made it through years of CoH with just the basic preset for M/F/Huge.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

I've been thinking for quite some time now that the male model puts too much length into the abdominals (shorten crotch to pecs height) and the shoulder joints are comically too wide/broad compared to the width of the hips, yielding an absurdly "top heavy" look to the male body model. In fact, just by looking at the male/female models side by side, it looks like someone just inverted the shoulder/hip widths between the two models ... such that the the male hips are as wide as the female shoulders, while the male shoulders are as wide as the female hips ... yielding this weird inverse proportionality between the genders.

As for overall height proportions ... I'll just leave this reference material here, on the off chance it's useful.


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As many measurements and

As many measurements and diagrams that are put up, I still feel the legs are short lol. Yes I am aware it will be editable, so im fine with that.

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Given that I regularly work

Given that I regularly work (outside of MWM) with an extraordinarily physically diverse group of people (Cerebral Palsy, Spinal Bifida, and other things), the human physical template seems meaningless to me in general. I know someone who was born with one leg who is more than capable of lapping me a half dozen times in a standard Olympic pool, for example.

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Statistics are just that.

Statistics are just that. Statistics. Averages are just averages. This doesn't mean one will always be surrounded by the average or there won't be those who aren't average.

I to have known short (legally midget being under 4ft 10) who could out run taller people with those longer legs. Which is why I always tell short people they can run faster :p

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Maybe there can be (at least) two preset body model options: Realistic and Comic Book. Just to serve as selectable starting points before the fiddling begins.

Because we already know that CoT will allow us to save "body proportion template" files independently from "costume item" files I suspect we'll have third-party access to dozens/hundreds of player made customized body preset files well before the game even launches. These will likely span the entire spectrum between realistic styles (i.e. using Rule of Heads), comic book styles and everything in between.

So while I'm not necessarily against the idea of MWM providing several preset body settings directly in the costume creator my guess is that they would be almost completely unnecessary - most people will either create their own or load in what some other players already made.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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We have always planned to

We have always planned to provide a wide range of body presets. Using the kinds of sliders we'll be providing can be difficult - players will need them as starting points or 'get out of Uncanny Valley free' passes.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

We have always planned to provide a wide range of body presets. Using the kinds of sliders we'll be providing can be difficult - players will need them as starting points or 'get out of Uncanny Valley free' passes.

Excellent, and thanks.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The hip motion right on time

The hip motion right on time with the punch. They turn the hand over on impact of the punch, good boxing experience there!!!

RAN Ink

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think having a character height display would be enough. So as long as they have that, I think it would work out. I like making my characters average height, maybe a bit taller depending on the type of character I build.

I agree, nice suggestion. I thought about this in City of Heroes very often.

Lothic wrote:

Do you seriously think these Devs would just let something as fundamental as that go unaddressed?

Yes. You should give less things for granted imho, it's never useful.

Just to give you a "triple A" game, Dragon Age Origins (one of the best games ever for me) which contained Arms longer than Legs, that's unfortunately very evident with massive armors in particular and when animated in-game where you see your very long arms moving like a running scimpanze (even if you don't use those, all the npcs will for the whole last third of the game):
https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/f/fd/TemplarArmor.png/revision/latest?cb=20110320025153
https://flamingbard.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/da_sentinelset_dawiki.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/55/a9/5f/55a95f8ea802fd46f731e8635f3158cd.jpg
In game the camera is also on the shoulders (or very up in some cases), which means the perspective makes it worse compared to these images. This was heavily corrected on DA2 etc.

------------------------------------

Going back to suggestions for devs, I like more your concept-arts compared to the 3d models, imho the body proportions are cooler (and comics-closer of course):

Compare:
https://cityoftitans.com/sites/default/files/SPandexxvisual.jpg

But I understand you may want to go the full-realistic-road (let's not forget there are also movies of superheroes out there now and relative fans to catch). Still my personal preference stands on your art-works here

I'm also sure the difference (between your 2d artworks and 3d models) would fade a little more if you show a less "muscle-based" hero as example. Hulks/Wolverines (bodybuilders) tend to give that impression compared to more athletic bodies. Which is why I think your model is already good enough, a thin char will be already very similar probably to such concepts.

(I'm totally certain with sliders I'll do whatever I want, the issue still remain with the NPCs, and only the devs can do that right. The other players instead must be free to create whatever they want, they just need the proper indications to reach the intended result: we have seen games where you create a pink char and it becomes red in game, or you create a tall char but you end up being short compared to npcs etc. This gets resolved by adding infos/previews in the creation steps, I have a few ideas about that.)

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Disagree on the realistic

Disagree on the realistic selling. :p To realistic looking makes a game get crappier as it ages. :p

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I wouldn't worry. They've

I wouldn't worry. They've already said that those models, while "base" in the sense of "zeroed out", aren't actually what the default proportions will be, AND that they are going for "realistic lite" at most. From things Brand's said in the past doubt it will be quite as unrealistic as Brand would prefer, but from what MWM has said up till now it should have a distinct comic art flavor.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Disagree on the realistic selling. :p To realistic looking makes a game get crappier as it ages. :p

That depends on what kind of realism we're talking about. If we're talking photo-realistic graphics then yes it does age badly, but if we're talking about realistic measurements, proportions (hello 5-6 foot tall busses in CO), environment layouts, physics, and such then no I don't think it will age badly (if it ages at all).

What I mean is that we can have Borderlands type graphics and still have a high level of realism.

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For everything besides

For everything besides graphics, the issue with realism isn't aging. It's time required, game design, or both. Figuring out a solution that allows good game design AND realism can be very, very time consuming, and the resulting techniques far harder for something that might actually be more enjoyable less realistic anyway.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

For everything besides graphics, the issue with realism isn't aging. It's time required, game design, or both. Figuring out a solution that allows good game design AND realism can be very, very time consuming, and the resulting techniques far harder for something that might actually be more enjoyable less realistic anyway.

Very good point. May be the same thing but the amount of realism actually needed highly depends on the type of game you're making. A simulator, especially those trying to be accurate to RL, needs much more than a bog-standard fantasy game.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Disagree on the realistic selling. :p To realistic looking makes a game get crappier as it ages. :p
That depends on what kind of realism we're talking about. If we're talking photo-realistic graphics then yes it does age badly, but if we're talking about realistic measurements, proportions (hello 5-6 foot tall busses in CO), environment layouts, physics, and such then no I don't think it will age badly (if it ages at all).
What I mean is that we can have Borderlands type graphics and still have a high level of realism.

Now I'm curious what we consider realistic measurements?

By that statement alone, I'd say, we wouldn't say the Kardashian/Jenner measurements aren't realistic? Realistic I'm taking you to mean...not quite obese but not quite physically fit? Because that seems to be people's idea of realistic. Can't be Cathie Jung's measurements, she's a real person for sure, but those measurements are unrealistic, even though she's real...o.O

If they look like crap compared to CoH (which right now I can't say they look equal to or better) there is an issue. :p

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Going by what's been shared

Going by what's been shared by MWM, the intent is to achieve CoH with better graphics.* What that will mean in practice is anyone's guess. The one thing that's certain is that not everyone will like everything. All of us will have nits to pick with something, be it the graphics, aesthetics, animations, power effects, sound effects, etc.



*Let's keep in mind that graphics and aesthetics are two completely different things.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Do you seriously think these Devs would just let something as fundamental as that go unaddressed?

Yes. You should give less things for granted imho, it's never useful.

You obviously haven't paid too much attention to how much "constructive criticism" I've provided directly to the CoT Devs on these forums over the years. Frankly I've pointed out so many stupid things these Devs plan to do for CoT (and told them how foolish they'll be for doing them in no uncertain terms) I'm frankly amazed I haven't been banned from these forums a dozen times over already.

No, I don't take that much "for granted" from this game given that we've still effectively seen almost nothing from it in 4 years other than a few minutes of video footage. But given that this game still has at least a year (or more) of beta testing in front of it I'm far, far from declaring it "broken" or "ungroomed" in terms of body animations. If you want to go ahead and assume CoT is already doomed based on a few seconds from a random test video then you clearly have no perspective or ability to hold a reasonable doubt. Come back with this a year from now and we'll talk...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Disagree on the realistic selling. :p To realistic looking makes a game get crappier as it ages. :p
That depends on what kind of realism we're talking about. If we're talking photo-realistic graphics then yes it does age badly, but if we're talking about realistic measurements, proportions (hello 5-6 foot tall busses in CO), environment layouts, physics, and such then no I don't think it will age badly (if it ages at all).
What I mean is that we can have Borderlands type graphics and still have a high level of realism.
Now I'm curious what we consider realistic measurements?
By that statement alone, I'd say, we wouldn't say the Kardashian/Jenner measurements aren't realistic? Realistic I'm taking you to mean...not quite obese but not quite physically fit? Because that seems to be people's idea of realistic. Can't be Cathie Jung's measurements, she's a real person for sure, but those measurements are unrealistic, even though she's real...o.O
If they look like crap compared to CoH (which right now I can't say they look equal to or better) there is an issue. :p

Ahh I see that my little parentheses about busses in CO was in the wrong place, should have been after "realistic measurements". From memory vehicles in CO were too "low".

Well, just checked back into CO and they are larger than I remembered them to be, but some other measurements seem off to me compared to the type of vehicles they're supposed to be.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If you want to go ahead and assume CoT is already doomed based on a few seconds from a random test video then you clearly have no perspective or ability to hold a reasonable doubt. Come back with this a year from now and we'll talk...

All my comments about this video of CoT are positive, both in Kickstarter and here in this specific topic. I like the video, the animation, the hairs, the body too even if I'd prefer a comics style more. Is that simple enough for you to not misinterpret it with the exact opposite?

Don't show me the bad habits you apparently got in the meantime. I just disagree with your initial idea in this topic (that body proportions are not going to be an issue because we got customization in CoT) and I must express my self here like all the others for the benefit of CoT it self, that's all. Are you able to read a different opinion and not to rage out?

Therefore I have nothing else to say to you, any further misunderstanding should go away if you repeat with me:
"I like the video"
"I disagree with you"

It's fine, disagreements happen.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

Lothic wrote:
If you want to go ahead and assume CoT is already doomed based on a few seconds from a random test video then you clearly have no perspective or ability to hold a reasonable doubt. Come back with this a year from now and we'll talk...
All my comments about this video of CoT are positive, both in Kickstarter and here in this specific topic. I like the video, the animation, the hairs, the body too even if I'd prefer a comics style more. Is that simple enough for you to not misinterpret it with the exact opposite?
Don't show me the bad habits you apparently got in the meantime. I just disagree with your initial idea in this topic (that body proportions are not going to be an issue because we got customization in CoT) and I must express my self here like all the others for the benefit of CoT it self, that's all. Are you able to read a different opinion and not to rage out?
Therefore I have nothing else to say to you, any further misunderstanding should go away if you repeat with me:
"I like the video"
"I disagree with you"
It's fine, disagreements happen.

So you generally like what you see in this video but then (based on this same video?) imply the CoT Devs could very well repeat the same animation mistakes other games made? That's like warning a student with a 4.0 grade average that he/she better not fail - doesn't seem very likely to me. You can at least admit why pretty much anyone could have been confused by your stance on this issue. Raging out as you put it was hardly required for this.

But if you contend our main disagreement was over the ability of this game's customization options to smooth over any leftover rough spots in the body models I think you haven't really considered how many options we'll have and the degree of grooming/testing we still have to go. The main strength of this game (unlike the one you cited) will be its customization and costuming options. Most other games are lucky to have maybe 1/10 the capability this game will be designed to have. Frankly if CoT ends up having even a tiny bit of the body proportion/animation problems you seem to be worried about then I'll effectively consider it a full failure as a "spiritual successor" to CoH.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But if you contend our main disagreement was over the ability of this game's customization options to smooth over any leftover rough spots in the body models I think you haven't really considered how many options we'll have and the degree of grooming/testing we still have to go. The main strength of this game (unlike the one you cited) will be its customization and costuming options. Most other games are lucky to have maybe 1/10 the capability this game will be designed to have. Frankly if CoT ends up having even a tiny bit of the body proportion/animation problems you seem to be worried about then I'll effectively consider it a full failure as a "spiritual successor" to CoH.

You make me repeat myself, transforming a "simple reminder" in an "affair of state" the more I repeat it: All the customization in the world won't do a thing for the quest-givers NPCs or the opponents or the buildings (if I want to exaggerate to be effective ^^).

You're proving my point more and more by repeating how heavy and all-resolving the City of Titans customization will be, because it just increases the need to remember to you and the still-human-devs that the character customization in my experience is still affected by the world around it (which is not customizable).

Examples: 1) If you want to create a policeman you'll need to check the uniform used in CoT and create a similar costume.
2) If you want to create a tall hero you will automatically compare it with npcs, doors, other players etc. once you're playing it (you may end up with a dwarf instead, if the rest of the world is taller than you).
3) If you want an anime-style character with giant puppy-eyes you better try to suggest the devs to use anime-style bodies now, or else -thanks to customization- you will be the only anime-creature in a "realistic" world (of course you can ignore the world and still create an exact copy of Sailor moon if the customization permits it, the point is that's out of place if you do it anyme-style and you canno't resolve it with your customization).

Body proportions, graphic styles etc. are still worthy of debate by the community because it will affect even your personal customization, forever after the game is released. Graphic style won't get a change after release (realistic/manga/american comics/middle-ground), hundreds of npcs and enemies are very unlikely to be changed in their body proportions once they are created and the game is out there. So you should worry about this now, or never again.

Anyway their actual body is good enough already for me, which is why I'm happy of the video among other things (even if I notice a slight difference with the concept-art-works, which I prefer, but it's just a preference I can ignore) and they already shown us how much they took it seriously with the relative math and study (contrary to the devs of other games which left proportions with visible errors even in tripe A games), still... it's perfectly understandable if community members are worried about heads, legs, arms etc. at this point (they should be) and customization is not a smart answer to those worries, because of the NPCs presence.

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

Lothic wrote:
But if you contend our main disagreement was over the ability of this game's customization options to smooth over any leftover rough spots in the body models I think you haven't really considered how many options we'll have and the degree of grooming/testing we still have to go. The main strength of this game (unlike the one you cited) will be its customization and costuming options. Most other games are lucky to have maybe 1/10 the capability this game will be designed to have. Frankly if CoT ends up having even a tiny bit of the body proportion/animation problems you seem to be worried about then I'll effectively consider it a full failure as a "spiritual successor" to CoH.
You make me repeat myself, transforming a "simple reminder" in an "affair of state" the more I repeat it: All the customization in the world won't do a thing for the quest-givers NPCs or the opponents or the buildings (if I want to exaggerate to be effective ^^).
You're proving my point more and more by repeating how heavy and all-resolving the City of Titans customization will be, because it just increases the need to remember to you and the still-human-devs that the character customization in my experience is still affected by the world around it (which is not customizable).
Examples: 1) If you want to create a policeman you'll need to check the uniform used in CoT and create a similar costume.
2) If you want to create a tall hero you will automatically compare it with npcs, doors, other players etc. once you're playing it (you may end up with a dwarf instead, if the rest of the world is taller than you).
3) If you want an anime-style character with giant puppy-eyes you better try to suggest the devs to use anime-style bodies now, or else -thanks to customization- you will be the only anime-creature in a "realistic" world (of course you can ignore the world and still create an exact copy of Sailor moon if the customization permits it, the point is that's out of place if you do it anyme-style and you canno't resolve it with your customization).
Body proportions, graphic styles etc. are still worthy of debate by the community because it will affect even your personal customization, forever after the game is released. Graphic style won't get a change after release (realistic/manga/american comics/middle-ground), hundreds of npcs and enemies are very unlikely to be changed in their body proportions once they are created and the game is out there. So you should worry about this now, or never again.
Anyway their actual body is good enough already for me, which is why I'm happy of the video among other things (even if I notice a slight difference with the concept-art-works, which I prefer, but it's just a preference I can ignore) and they already shown us how much they took it seriously with the relative math and study (contrary to the devs of other games which left proportions with visible errors even in tripe A games), still... it's perfectly understandable if community members are worried about heads, legs, arms etc. at this point (they should be) and customization is not a smart answer to those worries, because of the NPCs presence.

It frankly still amazes me you seem to think it won't be an absolute top priority for the Devs of this game to make both the PCs and NPCs bodies as perfect as possible. It should almost go without saying except for your apparently weird insistence that someone (like me perhaps?) say it out loud for you. Seriously, if the Devs of CoT actually screw up and fail at doing the things you are talking about here the game -will- be considered a failure. That's exactly how important this. This isn't the "standard" MMO where costumes and body animations are almost an afterthought - this stuff is the true "meat and potatoes" of this game so you know they'd be completely stupid to let anything sub-par get through to the released game.

This is exactly why I'm not terribly worried about it at this point. There's really only two ways this'll go: If by some sad miracle the Devs of this game actually mess this stuff up it'll be panned by everyone and will shutdown within months after launch. No one will want to play a game that's supposed to be the epitome of character customizations if any of them (either PC or NPC) look laughably bad. On the other hand if they don't mess this up (which again at this relatively early stage I'm perfectly willing to give them an ample benefit of the doubt for) then no one will remember anyone ever worried about it. *shrugs*

Look, I get you want this game to look good - so do I. I simply don't think it's worth essentially -assuming- the worst is bound to happen. I don't take for granted that everything will be perfect about CoT, but it's also far too early not to have at least a reasonable amount of faith that something good will come from all this. A year from now will be the time to replace our "faith" in these Devs with cold hard facts either way.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Now I'm curious what we consider realistic measurements?

Will this do (1:12 seems relevant for some reason)?

Lothic wrote:

It frankly still amazes me you seem to think it won't be an absolute top priority for the Devs of this game to make both the PCs and NPCs bodies as perfect as possible.

Replace the word "perfect" with the word "appealing" and we'll be in business. Perfection is the enemy of the "good enough" and all that. We want the avatars to be APPEALING to look at, rather than needing them to be PERFECT.


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So, what we could get in CoH.

So, what we could get in CoH. No issue there for me. CoH felt very comic book style to me. :)

Now, if our aesthetics can look like something better than Valiant (right now they look to be the same) I'll be happier.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It frankly still amazes me you seem to think it won't be an absolute top priority for the Devs of this game to make both the PCs and NPCs bodies as perfect as possible.

Replace the word "perfect" with the word "appealing" and we'll be in business. Perfection is the enemy of the "good enough" and all that. We want the avatars to be APPEALING to look at, rather than needing them to be PERFECT.

Right, right whatever. Since we're talking about a computer game here (which is just a specialized type of software application) nothing about it will ever be 100% "perfect". I was clearly trying to drive home the point that it should go without saying that the Devs of CoT will more than likely try to do their very best to make their body model look "as good as possible" no matter what.

My main original point about "customization being able to smooth over any lingering issues" is the very fact that no matter how good a job the Devs do there will still be players who don't exactly like it for whatever reasons. The sliders aren't going to be there to "cover up" for the bad job the Devs did - that's the wrong way to think about it. The sliders are going to be there to try to make as many players as possible happy REGARDLESS of how good a job the Devs do in the first place.

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That being said, if there's a

That being said, if there's a slider for boobs there should be a slider for bulge.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

That being said, if there's a slider for boobs there should be a slider for bulge.

Ah, but crotch-bulge isn't considered a secondary sexual characteristic, nor a measure of attractiveness.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
That being said, if there's a slider for boobs there should be a slider for bulge.
Ah, but crotch-bulge isn't considered a secondary sexual characteristic, nor a measure of attractiveness.
Be Well!
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:(

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

That being said, if there's a slider for boobs there should be a slider for bulge.

Ah, but crotch-bulge isn't considered a secondary sexual characteristic

I suppose this point is technically true from a purely scientific point of view.

Fireheart wrote:

nor a measure of attractiveness.

But on this point you might want to speak for yourself. I'm not necessarily saying that guys with big bulges down there are automatically considered "more attractive" by everyone but I would hazard to bet that if you took twin guys who were 100% identical in every way except you stuffed a sock down one of their pants the sock guy would ultimately get more "social attention" (for better or worse). Just saying. ;)

For the sake of pure customization equality I have always favored the idea of having both boob and bulge sliders in a game like this. Despite that I think we're all aware we're far more likely (for various reasons) to get multiple sliders to adjust the size, shape, positioning and (dare I say?) degree of jiggle of female breasts long before they ever give us anything even remotely connected to the male crotchal area. But who knows - the Devs of CoT could always surprise us with something along these lines. *shrugs*

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Are bulges in the genre of

Are bulges in the genre of comics? Superhero comics that is.

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No, comics avoid bulges like

No, comics avoid bulges like the plague.

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Honestly, maybe a slider for

Honestly, maybe a slider for bulge might be a little too much (although I'm glad to see that someone else agrees with me on this topic and im not on team bulge all by myself here) but at the very least they should have something there. That's the point im trying to make.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Honestly, maybe a slider for bulge might be a little too much (although I'm glad to see that someone else agrees with me on this topic and im not on team bulge all by myself here) but at the very least they should have something there. That's the point im trying to make.

Bulge sliders...LOL i really cannot help but think of this. Follow the link if you are brave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmR2Aw5hKXA

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[
Beeker wrote:

Are bulges in the genre of comics? Superhero comics that is.

Cyclops wrote:

No, comics avoid bulges like the plague.

Probably the best way to consider this point is to take a look at what they did with the classic Barbie and Ken dolls. While Barbie always had an obviously well developed chestal region (lacking nips of course but at least the mammeries were there) poor Ken was always left without even a hint of an anatomically correct package between his legs.

Comic books have classically followed the same Ken and Barbie guidelines because, well, one of the last remaining taboos western media seems to have is accurate depictions of what average real life males look like wearing tight spandex to cover their groinal areas. In comic books most males pretty much always look as "inoffensive" as a Ken doll whereas in real life guys wearing such outfits often look more like this:

Absolutely horrific isn't it? ;)

As I said before the "male bulge" taboo is such a big deal that I'd bet all the people who regularly post on this forum who have said that they'd totally hate the idea of CoT having any breast jiggle physics due to it being some combination of "inappropriate/offensive" would rather have the jiggle than a mythical bulge for males much less a slider to adjust the size of it. God forbid actual human anatomy ever gets 100% accurately modelled in any computer game... ever...

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Honestly, maybe a slider for bulge might be a little too much (although I'm glad to see that someone else agrees with me on this topic and im not on team bulge all by myself here) but at the very least they should have something there. That's the point im trying to make.

To be fair I'm not the only other person on "team bulge". I have seen others make the point both here and on the old CoH forums.

I just see it as a simple equality thing - if they are going to provide sliders for female breast customization I see no rational reason to avoid a male bulge slider other than the aforementioned silly taboo that seems to remain despite everything else that has evolved over the decades. Even if they still can't bring themselves to provide a "slider" for a bulge maybe they could at least give the default male body model a subtle yet noticeable default bulge to at least acknowledge that most males running around in this world should likely have some accounting for anatomically correct genitalia.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I only brought this up

I only brought this up because of a previous twitch video I watched where I believe they were showing the cc, and I took a screenshot of the fact that the male model not only did not have something close to accurate, but it almost appeared concave!

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I could see a modest

I could see a modest masculine crotch-bulge as appropriate, but I envision it as a toggle, rather than a slider. 'Bulge: Yes/No' The puerile juveniles are already going to be giving heroines Crippling torso-weights, so I'd expect them to give heroes trouser-elephants that were equally crippling.

I mean, anybody who thinks those things are fun, should be forced to wear them for a day.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I only brought this up because of a previous twitch video I watched where I believe they were showing the cc, and I took a screenshot of the fact that the male model not only did not have something close to accurate, but it almost appeared concave!

TBH I didn't hyper-analyze the guy's crotch that closely... Don't worry, I'm just having a go at you. ;)

But it is worth a passing mention that if we're not going to get anything even remotely close to having a "package size slider" then this game ought to at least make the default male model have something vaguely close to a "noticeable" bulge down there. I'm not saying it has to look like all CoT males are sporting elephant trunks in their pants but would it really kill us to have our guys kinda-sorta look like they have -something- more going on in that area than a Ken doll?

Fireheart wrote:

I could see a modest masculine crotch-bulge as appropriate, but I envision it as a toggle, rather than a slider. 'Bulge: Yes/No'

I could see the argument for giving players a "choice" about this via a toggle switch. It might make the most sense for robots because (at least to me) a robot with a "bulge" down there almost seems as weird as a human male without one.

But if the basic male body model was simply "endowed" with a very subtle/modest bulge as a default it could just be seen as a "compromise for the sake of anatomical correctness". If it was subtle enough it might not even be an issue for the proverbial robots I just mentioned. At any rate the area should not appear to be "concave" as Wolfgang mentioned.

Fireheart wrote:

The puerile juveniles are already going to be giving heroines Crippling torso-weights, so I'd expect them to give heroes trouser-elephants that were equally crippling.
I mean, anybody who thinks those things are fun, should be forced to wear them for a day.

Eh, you're assuming a real life issue would have relevance in a superhero setting. All of my "top heavy" female characters are usually either divine beings, robots or rely on anti-grav tech. All of these (and dozens of other rationalizations) easily explain away the "crippling" qualities you seem to be worried about. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I only brought this up because of a previous twitch video I watched where I believe they were showing the cc, and I took a screenshot of the fact that the male model not only did not have something close to accurate, but it almost appeared concave!
TBH I didn't hyper-analyze the guy's crotch that closely... Don't worry, I'm just having a go at you. ;)
But it is worth a passing mention that if we're not going to get anything even remotely close to having a "package size slider" then this game ought to at least make the default male model have something vaguely close to a "noticeable" bulge down there. I'm not saying it has to look like all CoT males are sporting elephant trunks in their pants but would it really kill us to have our guys kinda-sorta look like they have -something- more going on in that area than a Ken doll?

HAHAHA (sorry, my eyes wandered...) but I totally agree with your pitch. Hopefully a dev notices this and is brave enough to address this. Even if its just a quick YES.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I only brought this up because of a previous twitch video I watched where I believe they were showing the cc, and I took a screenshot of the fact that the male model not only did not have something close to accurate, but it almost appeared concave!
TBH I didn't hyper-analyze the guy's crotch that closely... Don't worry, I'm just having a go at you. ;)
But it is worth a passing mention that if we're not going to get anything even remotely close to having a "package size slider" then this game ought to at least make the default male model have something vaguely close to a "noticeable" bulge down there. I'm not saying it has to look like all CoT males are sporting elephant trunks in their pants but would it really kill us to have our guys kinda-sorta look like they have -something- more going on in that area than a Ken doll?
Fireheart wrote:
I could see a modest masculine crotch-bulge as appropriate, but I envision it as a toggle, rather than a slider. 'Bulge: Yes/No'
I could see the argument for giving players a "choice" about this via a toggle switch. It might make the most sense for robots because (at least to me) a robot with a "bulge" down there almost seems as weird as a human male without one.
But if the basic male body model was simply "endowed" with a very subtle/modest bulge as a default it could just be seen as a "compromise for the sake of anatomical correctness". If it was subtle enough it might not even be an issue for the proverbial robots I just mentioned. At any rate the area should not appear to be "concave" as Wolfgang mentioned.
Fireheart wrote:
The puerile juveniles are already going to be giving heroines Crippling torso-weights, so I'd expect them to give heroes trouser-elephants that were equally crippling.
I mean, anybody who thinks those things are fun, should be forced to wear them for a day.
Eh, you're assuming a real life issue would have relevance in a superhero setting. All of my "top heavy" female characters are usually either divine beings, robots or rely on anti-grav tech. All of these (and dozens of other rationalizations) easily explain away the "crippling" qualities you seem to be worried about. ;)

You explain it away? I would have just said "Just because she can, so suck it" :p I don't even do seriously top heavy characters, two and that was in CO and only more out of protest to those who complain about it...also all my previous were on the lower spectrum, just because at the time, it felt different (and I love Jubilee :p)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Eh, you're assuming a real life issue would have relevance in a superhero setting. All of my "top heavy" female characters are usually either divine beings, robots or rely on anti-grav tech. All of these (and dozens of other rationalizations) easily explain away the "crippling" qualities you seem to be worried about. ;)

You explain it away? I would have just said "Just because she can, so suck it" :p I don't even do seriously top heavy characters, two and that was in CO and only more out of protest to those who complain about it...also all my previous were on the lower spectrum, just because at the time, it felt different (and I love Jubilee :p)

As I said I could use just about any "superhero rationalization" I wanted for why this wasn't a problem not the least of which would be the same one you just did. Remember even saying something like "Just because she can, so suck it" is an "explanation" for it just like any other. ;)

That being said I don't think I ever had any of my CoH characters have her "boob slider" maxed out for more than maybe a 30 second experiment just to see just how bad it looked. Like you I kept most of mine towards the lower end of CoH's scale because even the lowest setting in CoH made most characters look like they were still sporting D-cups or bigger anyway. Thankfully the Devs of CoT have already said that their female body model's "breast size range" is going to allow for smaller/flatter sizes than CoH ever allowed for.

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I was, and am, one of those

I was, and am, one of those firmly on the pro-bulge side, though I honestly don't expect it'll happen. I honestly don't even think an actual "bulge slider" is a necessity, just SOME sense of geometry in that general region. Particularly as game models become more and more realistic over time, it just becomes more and more of a glaring and obvious omission.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Eh, you're assuming a real life issue would have relevance in a superhero setting. All of my "top heavy" female characters are usually either divine beings, robots or rely on anti-grav tech. All of these (and dozens of other rationalizations) easily explain away the "crippling" qualities you seem to be worried about. ;)
You explain it away? I would have just said "Just because she can, so suck it" :p I don't even do seriously top heavy characters, two and that was in CO and only more out of protest to those who complain about it...also all my previous were on the lower spectrum, just because at the time, it felt different (and I love Jubilee :p)
As I said I could use just about any "superhero rationalization" I wanted for why this wasn't a problem not the least of which would be the same one you just did. Remember even saying something like "Just because she can, so suck it" is an "explanation" for it just like any other. ;)
That being said I don't think I ever had any of my CoH characters have her "boob slider" maxed out for more than maybe a 30 second experiment just to see just how bad it looked. Like you I kept most of mine towards the lower end of CoH's scale because even the lowest setting in CoH made most characters look like they were still sporting D-cups or bigger anyway. Thankfully the Devs of CoT have already said that their female body model's "breast size range" is going to allow for smaller/flatter sizes than CoH ever allowed for.

While I don't recall the smallest slider being D cup or bigger :p I do like the idea of being able to go flat if possible, as I did have one cross dressing concept that would work well for.

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I had to put concealing

I had to put concealing clothing on my youngest characters, to mitigate the large chest-bumps.

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Fireheart

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I don't even do seriously top heavy characters

I made ONE "in your face" top heavy hero, and named her ... Topheavy Gs ... to make the joke obvious. To be even more blatant about the intended humor value, her powerset was Gravity/Trick Arrow Controller (so Grav/TA) with the chest and hip sliders all set to maximum (for what should be obvious reasons). And then, as the coup de gras, I put this in her Bio:

Quote:

SAVE IT. I've heard all the jokes, and the odds that yours will be original are approaching nil. I mean, how many other girls do you know who needed to develop gravity control technology as a defense against the onset of puberty?

Right. Didn't think so.

I got so many random tells of appreciation from people laughing themselves out of their chair after having read the Bio for Topheavy Gs (which was, of course, a multi-layered pun of a hero name all on its own). Ironically, she was quite a lot of fun to play, even if she was a bit lacking in the Total Lockdown department that was supposed to be a Controller's birthright (and reason for existence).


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I just...

I just...

I... I don't...

The last 18 posts on this thread have been about boobs and wangs.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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