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Discuss: DW Animations between Male and Female

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Interdictor
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I just...
I... I don't...
The last 18 posts on this thread have been about boobs and wangs.

I know right?

In any case, there is a pic of the (most current/final?) character models all the way back in post 26 in this thread, and they look alright to me. *shrugs*.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I had to put concealing clothing on my youngest characters, to mitigate the large chest-bumps.

This was basically the actual "breast problem" I usually had in CoH. It wasn't that I worried my characters would look like they'd break their backs jumping around with mega-mammaries but that I had several younger/teenaged characters that never looked right to me because even at the minimum setting they looked as stacked as the average Victoria Secret model.

Just to be clear I'm not anti-boob here. I don't believe that all female superhero characters in these games should be flat as washboards. I like Power Girl despite all the "My eyes are up here" jokes. I'm just saying sometimes I want to have characters with full Double-Ds and sometimes I simply don't.

As I mentioned before I'm hoping that the overall breast size slider range of CoT will allow for a more complete range of sizes from super huge down to super waif. I mean how the heck am I suppose to make a proper Hit-Girl clone if she's running around looking more like a younger Kaley Cuoco than a younger Chloë Grace Moretz?

Redlynne wrote:

I got so many random tells of appreciation from people laughing themselves out of their chair after having read the Bio for Topheavy Gs (which was, of course, a multi-layered pun of a hero name all on its own).

Sounds like this would've been fun to see in game. TBH I only ever stumbled across a handful of what I'd consider to be genuine "joke" characters like this where it was likely just some 13-year-old who had cranked up all the sliders for a laugh. But I'm not sure I ever saw one like yours that played it up as a detailed "inside joke" like you did.

Empyrean wrote:

I just...
I... I don't...
The last 18 posts on this thread have been about boobs and wangs.

As the Oracle from the Matrix movies might say: If we didn't start talking about boobs and wangs this thread might have stopped 18 posts ago. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Wolfgang8565
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
I just...
I... I don't...
The last 18 posts on this thread have been about boobs and wangs.
I know right?
In any case, there is a pic of the (most current/final?) character models all the way back in post 26 in this thread, and they look alright to me. *shrugs*.

I'm sorry but this is alright to you? Keep in mind this is the screenshot of the male model.

Lothic
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I'm sorry but this is alright to you? Keep in mind this is the screenshot of the male model.

I don't pretend to be a general expert in human anatomy but just based on this single pic alone (without any additional explanation) I might have easily bet a shiny nickle that it was a pic of the female body model.

While I agree something should probably be done to "fix" this I could accept the current model for the time being. Ideally this should be "tinkered with" before launch, but if it has to wait some number of months to pass through several layers of beta testing/updates to get done I'm fine with that. This is not something that needs to be addressed as the absolute number one priority - I'd rather see the Avatar Builder launch with this "Ken doll" model tomorrow than to have to wait another month or two before release just to deal with this one issue.

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Interdictor
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
I just...
I... I don't...
The last 18 posts on this thread have been about boobs and wangs.
I know right?
In any case, there is a pic of the (most current/final?) character models all the way back in post 26 in this thread, and they look alright to me. *shrugs*.
I'm sorry but this is alright to you? Keep in mind this is the screenshot of the male model.

Yes - I wont' be playing the game to look at wangs or bulges. Besides, even if there was a bulge, it would probably be so slight as to be almost unnoticeable unless you zoom in closely to check it out (from their statements on other topics I'm getting the feeling the devs aren't suddenly going to go full fanservice-y). In any case - there isn't much in the way of bulge in the source material (comics) - why should it be such a big deal here?

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

why should it be such a big deal here?

Or a perfectly adequate deal...

>.>

<.<

What?

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Yes - I wont' be playing the game to look at wangs or bulges.

Fair enough. No player pays attention to every last detail a game like this offers.

Interdictor wrote:

Besides, even if there was a bulge, it would probably be so slight as to be almost unnoticeable unless you zoom in closely to check it out.

Then why do games like these provide dozen/hundreds of facial customization sliders that are effectively unnoticeable? When will people stop trying to make very lame cases -against- cosmetic features based on some handwaving notion that since they might be mostly unnoticeable they don't deserve to be in any game?

Interdictor wrote:

In any case - there isn't much in the way of bulge in the source material (comics) - why should it be such a big deal here?

Living through the "Ken Doll" era of the last 70-80 years was cute and all that but I'd tend to like to think (even as a passing thought that I didn't dwell on too often) that any male characters that I play in a game like this would have the vaguest of evidence for having genitalia. It's just one of those things... if you want to keep running around being indistinguishable from an eunuch that's your deal. *shrugs*

Drawing overt attention to having a "bulge" there is not my ultimate desire. But I must confess the fact that it's -not- there now makes me almost pay -more- attention to its increasingly unjustifiable absence. It's sort of like back in the day when we had "mitten hands" in the original CoH: Sure it was acceptable for its time but it only highlighted the fact that we didn't have hands with five distinct fingers.

It's seriously not a big deal to have a noticeable male bulge either way. But if it can be argued that its truly not a "big deal" as you imply then why not go ahead and have them? Sounds like something we could have had for literally no -extra- work on the Devs' part had they given it reasonable due consideration.

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Lothic
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Interdictor wrote:
why should it be such a big deal here?
Or a perfectly adequate deal...
>.>
<.<
What?

Speak for your own characters... ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Keep in mind this is the screenshot of the male model.

Well, it's clearly not the female model, as it lacks hips. An 'anatomically correct' model might have the bulge of a 'protective cup' or other supporter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_belt). I certainly don't consider this an important omission. Particularly when we're addressing 'superhero-realism', where the Ken/Barbie model is prevalent. Otherwise, we'd have to deal with Wolverine's battle-aroused junk, or Superman's codpiece.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Well, it's clearly not the female model, as it lacks hips.

I simply don't think you (or anyone in general) could "clearly" make that determination with 100% accuracy. Your "lack of hips" point is at best "indeterminate" because some real life adult women (and certainly younger girls) don't possess overtly wide hips. I would argue if a pic like this could be "mistaken" for being part of a female body model by even 5-10% of the people then that's 5-10% too much ambiguity.

Fireheart wrote:

An 'anatomically correct' model might have the bulge of a 'protective cup' or other supporter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_belt). I certainly don't consider this an important omission. Particularly when we're addressing 'superhero-realism', where the Ken/Barbie model is prevalent. Otherwise, we'd have to deal with Wolverine's battle-aroused junk, or Superman's codpiece.

I'm not sure the compromise of having a "subtly generic/noticeable" bulge on the male model would require us to have to worry too much about specialized cases. I'm certainly not implying we need to account for "battle-based arousal" scenarios. Again I would refer you to my previous example of CoH's original "mitten hands" and how they were eventually improved. I think all that's being suggested here is a reasonable step past being locked into the decades-old Ken Doll paradigm.

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Interdictor
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Then why do games like these provide dozen/hundreds of facial customization sliders that are effectively unnoticeable?

I'd imagine it's because human beings are much more sensitive to faces - we consciously and subconsciously pay a lot of attention to them. Plus faces offer a lot in personalization for players who want to get their character "just right" - or at least close to it - thus the need for multiple sliders/more resources devoted to them.

Quote:

It's seriously not a big deal to have a noticeable male bulge either way. But if it can be argued that its truly not a "big deal" as you imply then why not go ahead and have them? Sounds like something we could have had for literally no -extra- work on the Devs' part had they given it reasonable due consideration.

To be honest I wouldn't care if there was a slight bulge, but if the model above is the one we have to work with then so be it. I'd rather them not waste the time to put one in and possibly cause issues such as clipping and the like just to appease a few people. The devs may have indeed given it "due consideration" and come to the conclusion that it wasn't a "must have".

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This attention may seem a bit

This attention may seem a bit ridiculous, but I have to agree with Lothic that the lack of difference between the male and female crotches was one of the first things I noticed and it actually made me a bit uncomfortable. Silly, I know; but honest nonetheless. I do hope the devs adjust the male mesh so there is some more volume there than on the female model.

Beside, if we make it a toggled feature, then it allows players to play with both female style breasts and male style crotch. I'm sure there will be at least a few players who would want that option.

Edit for storytime: I have taken part in the Polar Bear Plunge every new year's day for the past six years. They break a hole in the ice and the whole town comes out to watch. My first time I was nervous that everyone would be watching me. Since the less clothing you wear the quicker you can warm up again, we all went in with just our speedos. My buddy gave me some advice and said that since the water is really cold I should put a potato in my suit. So I did. When we climbed out of the ice I noticed the crowd looking at my suit area with large eyes and snickering. It turns out I should have put the potato in the front. How was I to know?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Then why do games like these provide dozen/hundreds of facial customization sliders that are effectively unnoticeable?

I'd imagine it's because human beings are much more sensitive to faces - we consciously and subconsciously pay a lot of attention to them. Plus faces offer a lot in personalization for players who want to get their character "just right" - or at least close to it - thus the need for multiple sliders/more resources devoted to them.

Actually I could turn this around and easily make your original "Why have it?" argument stick to my example of face customization. Can you honestly tell me that unless you were simply standing motionless in front of another player and actively spent a few moments studying their face that you would -actually- notice any specific details about their choices for facial slider settings? How often did the thought even occur to you to actively notice someone else's face when you were playing on any team in CoH?

My point with this is simple - sometimes cosmetic details are simply nice to have even if most people never notice them. This is why I'd support both a reasonable number of facial sliders AND a reasonable degree of male bulge. Neither one of these things are individually "important" but they can both add more detail to an already detail-rich game.

Interdictor wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It's seriously not a big deal to have a noticeable male bulge either way. But if it can be argued that its truly not a "big deal" as you imply then why not go ahead and have them? Sounds like something we could have had for literally no -extra- work on the Devs' part had they given it reasonable due consideration.

To be honest I wouldn't care if there was a slight bulge, but if the model above is the one we have to work with then so be it. I'd rather them not waste the time to put one in and possibly cause issues such as clipping and the like just to appease a few people. The devs may have indeed given it "due consideration" and come to the conclusion that it wasn't a "must have".

As I've already said it should not be a priority for the Devs to be working on adding a bulge to the male body model literally RIGHT NOW this second. The model they have today, August 28 2017, is the one they should use for the Avatar Builder open beta ASAP. But if they have not thought about giving the model a reasonable bulge yet (because we simply do not know if this was ever considered or not) then perhaps over the coming months when they are (very likely) going to have to do some tinkering based on beta testing feedback they could address this issue.

As I said they could have literally worked this in when the model was being initially developed for NO additional cost and even now I would remain unconvinced that the amount of "time and effort" to fix this would be excessive by any reasonable standard. Obviously this could be something that's addressed post launch just like the many body model improvements we got in CoH (i.e. mitten hand upgrade).

P.S. As far as this being something that you're assuming "only a few people would want" we again have no real way to know that for certain. I can only point out that I saw multiple posts asking for this type of thing all the way back to the CoH forum days. Does that mean there's a million people who want it in CoT? Probably not. But I suspect far more people would be in the "I want it" (or at least the "I don't care either way") categories than you might expect.

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Lothic
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

This attention may seem a bit ridiculous, but I have to agree with Lothic that the lack of difference between the male and female crotches was one of the first things I noticed and it actually made me a bit uncomfortable. Silly, I know; but honest nonetheless. I do hope the devs adjust the male mesh so there is some more volume there than on the female model.

Again I would completely agree with others that this is not a tip-top priority issue and I could easily live with a male body bulge update post launch. But still it's something that in the long run should happen because ultimately we all know the "Ken Doll" depiction of males in any computer game is just fundamentally wrong.

We don't need to go so far as to look like we all have "potatoes in our speedos" but for your god's sake can we at least have enough of a "bulge" so that we can't confuse the male and female body models in close-up pics? I honestly believe one of the subconscious reasons I don't like to play males in superhero games is that up until now (because of the Ken Doll paradigm) they all look (to me) like females from the waist down. *shrugs*

Huckleberry wrote:

Beside, if we make it a toggled feature, then it allows players to play with both female style breasts and male style crotch. I'm sure there will be at least a few players who would want that option.

Yeah I'm sure we'd have a few Thai "ladyboys" running around. It's amazing but some of the most beautiful "women" I've ever seen in Singapore were actually Thai ladyboys. ;)

Huckleberry wrote:

Edit for storytime: I have taken part in the Polar Bear Plunge every new year's day for the past six years. They break a hole in the ice and the whole town comes out to watch. My first time I was nervous that everyone would be watching me. Since the less clothing you wear the quicker you can warm up again, we all went in with just our speedos. My buddy gave me some advice and said that since the water is really cold I should put a potato in my suit. So I did. When we climbed out of the ice I noticed the crowd looking at my suit area with large eyes and snickering. It turns out I should have put the potato in the front. How was I to know?

Heh, thanks for sharing. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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@Huck Great feedback. That is

@Huck Great feedback. That is where I first noticed this oddity and its been on my subconscious ever since, hoping to one day have a good discussion about it. Glad that moment arrived. Great story btw, made me crack a smile.

@Lothic I'm not great at expressing myself but just wanted to point out that everything you said about this whole bulge debate is exactly how I feel. So, thanks! :D

.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

@Lothic I'm not great at expressing myself but just wanted to point out that everything you said about this whole bulge debate is exactly how I feel. So, thanks! :D

Don't sell yourself short. The way I look at it is that there's always the chance a Dev will read any of these posts and get some ideas about what players want from this game. Even if the posts are generally about silly things or full of bickering the Devs get feedback regardless.

Besides I wouldn't consider myself the paragon of communication - based on how many times I seem to get people to misunderstand me or try to argue with me when they're clearly in the wrong one might think I was typing my responses in Welsh. ;)

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

...It turns out I should have put the potato in the front. How was I to know?

Gayle Force had a song about that subject, though not exactly that situation... Too bad you hadn't heard it yet then.

Kartanian wrote:

...and the potato goes in front! (Just a small word of advice, boys!) The potato goes in front! Yeah, the potato goes in front. (Really.)

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I don't even do seriously top heavy characters
I made ONE "in your face" top heavy hero, and named her ... Topheavy Gs ... to make the joke obvious. To be even more blatant about the intended humor value, her powerset was Gravity/Trick Arrow Controller (so Grav/TA) with the chest and hip sliders all set to maximum (for what should be obvious reasons). And then, as the coup de gras, I put this in her Bio:
Quote:
SAVE IT. I've heard all the jokes, and the odds that yours will be original are approaching nil. I mean, how many other girls do you know who needed to develop gravity control technology as a defense against the onset of puberty?
Right. Didn't think so.
I got so many random tells of appreciation from people laughing themselves out of their chair after having read the Bio for Topheavy Gs (which was, of course, a multi-layered pun of a hero name all on its own). Ironically, she was quite a lot of fun to play, even if she was a bit lacking in the Total Lockdown department that was supposed to be a Controller's birthright (and reason for existence).

I can't say I did mine obvious. However, it wasn't a maxed out setting either. Just larger than usual. One was to match Storm (well endowed X-Men) as my character wasn't Storm but sort of a homage to her (Psychokinetic catgirl :) ) the other was my main's daughter from the future, so of course, she had to be taller and more endowed. :p

Never got the daughter out of RP phase as I never could decide how to do her powers in CO. :/ Calico (the catgirl) was just lots of fun to play :)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I can't say I did mine obvious. However, it wasn't a maxed out setting either. Just larger than usual. One was to match Storm (well endowed X-Men) as my character wasn't Storm but sort of a homage to her (Psychokinetic catgirl :) ) the other was my main's daughter from the future, so of course, she had to be taller and more endowed. :p
Never got the daughter out of RP phase as I never could decide how to do her powers in CO. :/ Calico (the catgirl) was just lots of fun to play :)

That's funny you should say that, although im not surprised since you were active in the official x-men forum, but I too had a character knock off of Storm. Her name was Weather Goddess and I wish I had a screenshot of her. She only got generic'd(?) once but I was able to match her pretty closely. I never went overboard with the chest though. It was a good size.

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For the record we have kept a

For the record we have kept a "package" slider in mind

Technical Director

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record we have kept a "package" slider in mind

^_^

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I vote for the "the male

I vote for the "the male models must have something down there by default", but I also vote against the "package" slider for players there.

About the problem of the tight superhero costumes, I'd like to remind the devs that even the tightest costumes don't need to be that tight right there too; like some illustrators do in recent comics you can resolve the matter by still putting a package but making that specific part of the costume not particularly tight (avoid the details shown on the photo posted before, of course), therefore by adding an effect of "bending" of the costume with various folds/creases just there (not sure how to put it) and it's done, you get a tight costume with a bulge and at the same time you avoid the details.

About the slider instead, I find that one unnecessary. Somebody was comparing the women's breast with the men's bulge if I'm not mistaken, but while the women's breast slider is very important to customize the whole body and make it appear fat or slim or muscular or young etc. (without that slider it would become incredibly difficult to represent those "conditions"), the male bulge doesn't have this importance on the rest of the body (a fat or slim man can still have very different sizes down there). In fact there is no real disparity between genders imho in games customization, since both women and men do get a slider for the breast usually and the same equal treatment is done for the "rear end" of both genders (which is often integrated with the "muscle level" slider), the frontal low part it's not really needed to represent the rest of the body imho (but it's still a natural part that must exists at least^^).

Note: I tried to stay generic and was thinking specifically to the game, I know that in reality there are always exceptions but in terms of customization in a game some things are better more standardized.

Just make sure to put something by default, average and not exaggerated but still something, and use the trick of the "folds" to avoid the details in the tightest costumes.
My 2 cents.

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Slider does not necessarily

Slider does not necessarily mean something in the players control. A single body has nearly 200 of them after all. The package area gets affected by other body alterations, so needs adjustment. Otherwise you get weird shapes when wearing pants.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Slider does not necessarily mean something in the players control. A single body has nearly 200 of them after all. The package area gets affected by other body alterations, so needs adjustment. Otherwise you get weird shapes when wearing pants.

Sounds good. So you have a few algorithms that slave the hidden sliders to the revealed ones, to keep the valleys from getting too uncanny.

Be Well!
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Maybe because those things

Maybe because those things need to be different for male and female models?


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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record we have kept a "package" slider in mind

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Slider does not necessarily mean something in the players control. A single body has nearly 200 of them after all. The package area gets affected by other body alterations, so needs adjustment. Otherwise you get weird shapes when wearing pants.

It always amazes me how far a tiny bit of Dev input can help enlighten these conversations. I know it's not realistic for any of you guys to be able to jump into any thread instantaneously and drop Dev knowledge exactly when it's needed but it usually does help once we start recounting various angels dancing on the heads of various pins.

As far as the idea of "hidden sliders" goes it sounds like as long as the male model is designed so that regardless of anything a player can customize the model is always left with a "hint" of a package in that area then things would probably be fine.

My main concern here would be that if you placed two close-up pics of the general "groinal" region of both the male and female models side-by-side it should be -very- hard to mix up which is the male and which is the female. In other words it should be obvious (side-by-side) that the male has a bit more of a reasonable amount of "bulge" in that area. Again no one's asking for ridiculous proportions here - it should simply be enough so the male and female models are "obviously different" in this regard.

Redlynne wrote:

Maybe because those things need to be different for male and female models?

My answer to that would be yes. In this area I think they do need to be at least different -enough- to be unmistakable when compared to each other. In a nutshell (excuse the pun) it's high time the Ken doll we've been stuck with up until now grow a pair...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It always amazes me how far a tiny bit of Dev input can help enlighten these conversations. I know it's not realistic for any of you guys to be able to jump into any thread instantaneously and drop Dev knowledge exactly when it's needed but it usually does help once we start recounting various angels dancing on the heads of various pins.

As far as the idea of "hidden sliders" goes it sounds like as long as the male model is designed so that regardless of anything a player can customize the model is always left with a "hint" of a package in that area then things would probably be fine.

My main concern here would be that if you placed two close-up pics of the general "groinal" region of both the male and female models side-by-side it should be -very- hard to mix up which is the male and which is the female. In other words it should be obvious (side-by-side) that the male has a bit more of a reasonable amount of "bulge" in that area. Again no one's asking for ridiculous proportions here - it should simply be enough so the male and female models are "obviously different" in this regard.

I thought exactly the same about these devs replies, it must be a gift or a superpower since each reply of DocTyche it's like a game trailer for me (it increase the hype lol). Thanks devs for the presence and the quality of it.

I agree completely with the rest of the quote too.

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Just to know. These sliders

Just to know. These sliders for woman breath and male bulge... could they prevent CoT to be classified with T for Teen ?
Before thinking of what people want (big moving breath or big moving bulge, 'coz that's what it's about, must say it); maybe it could be nice to know if the goal of T for Teen can be reached with this element ^^

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Yes it can. Body deformers do
TitansCity wrote:

Before thinking of what people want (big moving breath or big moving bulge, 'coz that's what it's about, must say it); maybe it could be nice to know if the goal of T for Teen can be reached with this element ^^

Yes the teen rating can. Body deformers do not affect ratings without an overt sexualization to the sliders. Like for example an erect nipple or erect wee willy winker slider.

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Just to know. These sliders for woman breath and male bulge... could they prevent CoT to be classified with T for Teen ?
Before thinking of what people want (big moving breath or big moving bulge, 'coz that's what it's about, must say it); maybe it could be nice to know if the goal of T for Teen can be reached with this element ^^

Well, I mean, if you're talking about big moving breaths I think that right there would put us at M for Mature. ;)

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Well, I mean, if you're talking about big moving breaths I think that right there would put us at M for Mature. ;)

You mean like this?


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O_o

O_o

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

O_o

More like:
o_o
O_O
o_o
O_O
o_o
O_O

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Breast slider would not

Breast slider would not effect the teen rating. CoH and CO have that. Seriously, why is that even asked? :p As for the other slider, no idea. I wouldn't think so, but let's be serious, one can get ridiculous and no one will bat an eye, the other can be set to get ridiculous and people will look at the game, laugh and never come back. :p

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As far as whether a "subtly

As far as whether or not a "subtly noticeable male bulge" would endanger the "T for Teen" rating goes I'd have to suspect it would not, especially if it was reasonably (not ridiculously) proportioned and if players did -not- have any direct control over the sliders that affected it as Dr Tyche implied we would not. Here's the thing: Even if most comics still depict males as "Ken dolls" we've seen so many superhero movies in the last 20-30 years with "real life" men sporting variously noticeable bulges in their tights that it's hardly something to get -that- upset about. If it's keep "low-key" like what we've seen in the movies then we'll be fine.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Well, I mean, if you're talking about big moving breaths I think that right there would put us at M for Mature. ;)

To be fair I'm pretty sure TitansCity probably meant to say "breast slider" instead of "breath slider". IIRC, TitansCity is one of our posters whose native language is French so you have to be willing to cut him some slack on his use of English as a second language.

Brainbot wrote:

Body deformers do not affect ratings without an overt sexualization to the sliders. Like for example an erect nipple or erect wee willy winker slider.

Case in point at least as far as "erect nips" go: One of the very first nerfs we got in CoH (like roughly a week after launch) involved a subtle change to the female body model that reduced the apparent "hint" of raised nipple over the breasts. I think the effect was more due to unfortunate color shading which made it look like there were actual 3D nips there but regardless there was a change specifically to eliminate even the -possible- appearance of erect nips in the game.

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Loving this thread. So much

Loving this thread. So much of volume in that last animation seems to be happening OUTSIDE of a lacy undergarment.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record we have kept a "package" slider in mind

Very important in airports. So long as it can go around corners I'm good.

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So no costumes like the

So no costumes like the Batman and Robin movie. Thank goodness. lol

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I want to go back to the OP

I want to go back to the OP for moment.

Since this is supposed to show the same animation, but with two different bodies, I think it would have been a much better demonstration if you showed us the animation bones and then showed us each of the surface meshes, male and female, so we could see how they worked and how they are the same. In fact, it would have been an even greater demonstration if you did a few more with some abnormal slider settings in the body dimensions to really show it off.

As it stands now, there's really nothing portrayed that seems impressive or that helps to make your point without explanation text to tell us we are supposed to be impressed.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I want to go back to the OP for moment.
Since this is supposed to show the same animation, but with two different bodies, I think it would have been a much better demonstration if you showed us the animation bones and then showed us each of the surface meshes, male and female, so we could see how they worked and how they are the same. In fact, it would have been an even greater demonstration if you did a few more with some abnormal slider settings in the body dimensions to really show it off.
As it stands now, there's really nothing portrayed that seems impressive or that helps to make your point without explanation text to tell us we are supposed to be impressed.

Good points. Frankly, I think this video was created simply as an internal demonstration of progress, but someone decided to share it with us. Lacking full context, or, really, any scale of 'value' to apply to it, we've gone off in random directions.

I AM impressed by the smoothness with which the models integrated with the animations, or vice-versa. I think both the models and the animations could use more polish before they get declared 'done'. I remind myself that this is still a work in progress and I can't form a final opinion until it is more complete.

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I know it is not quite the

I know it is not quite the subject of that test but please consider seriously to at least have an actual woman (wearing moderate heels) do mocap for the walking and running animation cycles.
Women's hips are different from men's due to the need to fit a birth canal into our pelvic bones as well as the need to be able to at least waddle around with 20 pounds of baby strapped onto our bellies.The heels further affect our walking movements. It is not a huge difference but it is quite noticeable when the male walking animation gets used for female characters. Kind of an uncanny valley thing really. If there is time and resource available, it would be a nice quality of life thing to not go the route of City of Heroes (where women looked like they were plodding along instead of running/walking like women.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

For the record we have kept a "package" slider in mind

As a reference it is getting (more than) a bit dated, but you can just refer to it as The Area
(of David Bowie in The Labyrinth fame... And yes, it was jokingly referred to as the third main character in that movie)

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Nadira wrote:
Nadira wrote:

I know it is not quite the subject of that test but please consider seriously to at least have an actual woman (wearing moderate heels) do mocap for the walking and running animation cycles.
Women's hips are different from men's due to the need to fit a birth canal into our pelvic bones as well as the need to be able to at least waddle around with 20 pounds of baby strapped onto our bellies.The heels further affect our walking movements. It is not a huge difference but it is quite noticeable when the male walking animation gets used for female characters. Kind of an uncanny valley thing really. If there is time and resource available, it would be a nice quality of life thing to not go the route of City of Heroes (where women looked like they were plodding along instead of running/walking like women.

I certainly agree with you on the point that if the folks at MWM can actually include some "mocap" of people walking/running in heels to refine their animations that would be great. Just remember that the Devs of CoT have already affirmed their desire to have no "gender locked" costume items so it's quite reasonable to assume that the MALE body model will have to work well with high heels as well. Ideally -both- body models need to be high-heel capable. I'm looking forward to making myself a Prince clone as much as anyone else...

Ironically enough when this scenario (of superheroes doing superhero things in high heels) comes up in "real life" the folks involved usually play tricks to make things work anyway. Obviously when I say "real life" here I mean in Hollywood TV shows and movies. For instance if you ever watched the old 1970s era Wonder Woman TV show with Lynda Carter they would constantly switch her heels out for flat-soled boots whenever she was filming a scene with a lot of fighting or running in it. She would only "magically" switch back to her heeled boots when she was standing relatively still or just walking around.

Hopefully the Devs of CoT will get their animations working right regardless of the footwear our characters are wearing.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

For instance if you ever watched the old 1970s era Wonder Woman TV show with Lynda Carter they would constantly switch her heels out for flat-soled boots whenever she was filming a scene with a lot of fighting or running in it. She would only "magically" switch back to her heeled boots when she was standing relatively still or just walking around.

Here's an example of just that.

You can clearly see at 2:14 that her boots have heels on them, even though she's walking in dirt. And then starting at 2:30, every time you can see her boots, they're (somewhat) obviously low heeled flats, even though she's walking the same dirt as she was less than half a minute ago on screen.


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<_< I'd just like to throw in

<_< I'd just like to throw in a vote for a package slider. That is all. >_>

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RandomZombie wrote:
RandomZombie wrote:

<_< I'd just like to throw in a vote for a package slider. That is all. >_>

MWM already did that. It didn't end well ...


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

You can clearly see at 2:14 that her boots have heels on them, even though she's walking in dirt. And then starting at 2:30, every time you can see her boots, they're (somewhat) obviously low heeled flats, even though she's walking the same dirt as she was less than half a minute ago on screen.

It would be cool (as a fun reference to this phenomena) if CoT provided us an option to have "magical" high-heeled boots that would be able (using the same "trigger" used for a combat auras) to automatically become flat-soled boots while fighting and then become high-heeled again when not in combat. ;)

Barring that I suppose the body models in CoT will need to address the following 8 basic modes of movement at a minimum:

  • Male model walking in flat soled shoes/boots
  • Male model walking in heeled shoes/boots
  • Male model running in flat soled shoes
  • Male model running in heeled shoes/boots
  • Female model walking in flat soled shoes
  • Female model walking in heeled shoes/boots
  • Female model running in flat soled shoes
  • Female model running in heeled shoes/boots

It's worth mentioning when CoH added its "Walk" power in Issue 16 I didn't mind the specific animations involved. I actually liked the clear difference between the male and female Walk. Of course the way they implemented it was unfortunate because apparently they either couldn't (or didn't) want to figure out how to make the Walk animation work with all the standard combat animations. This forced you to be unable to use basically any other power while Walking which made the whole thing pretty much a 100% RP-only thing. Hopefully CoT will figure out a way to make it so that people could "shift" from a slow Walking speed to a "standard" Running speed while still being able use all of our powers normally.

RandomZombie wrote:

<_< I'd just like to throw in a vote for a package slider. That is all. >_>

At this point having a male "package slider" is actually making it into my "most often suggested costume/body model" area of my overall costume summary list I've been working on. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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In the game Macho Women With

In the game Macho Women With Guns (produced by the Blacksburg Tactical Research Center who also produced the phenomenally useful Guns! Guns! Guns! (also known as 3G)), one of the skills in the game was Run In High Heels. Three guesses as to why, and the first two don't count.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

In the game Macho Women With Guns (produced by the Blacksburg Tactical Research Center who also produced the phenomenally useful Guns! Guns! Guns! (also known as 3G)), one of the skills in the game was Run In High Heels. Three guesses as to why, and the first two don't count.

Yeah the original "rulebook" for that game was only like 10 pages long because when you're going to go that far into "tongue-in-cheek" territory why do you really need any rules. ;)

It's never been a hyper-critical issue to me whether or not comic books (or by extension computer games based on comic books) need to be super-realistic when it comes to whether wearers of high-heeled footwear need to care about shattered ankles or not.

Sometimes I'll just rationalize that my gynoid character can get away with six-inch heels because her skeleton is made of some kind of fancy titanium/mithril alloy that can withstand that kind of punishment. Other times I'll let my characters wear heels because I know they're going to be Hovering 95% of the time so they'll never run around in their relatively impractical footwear anyway.

But if you want to create a Kung Fu martial artist who wears ballet boots and you don't bother to "explain" how that works it wouldn't bother me that much. Like Nadira mentioned I'd rather see the game get the walk/run animations right than worry about the "practicality" of wearing heels to fight (or perpetrate) crime in the first place.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

So no costumes like the Batman and Robin movie. Thank goodness. lol

mods.

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Granted, a lot of the combat

Granted, a lot of the combat animations can be "bisexual" in the sense that they'll work just fine regardless of genders ... but there are some movements and animations (walking and running are notable standouts) where "porting" one set of movements over to both genders won't necessarily look as good as they could have with some amount of gender differentiation for male and female animations. Women walk and run with a different gait than men tend to do, and that's almost entirely a difference based on the structural differences in their bodies (and I think I speak for everyone when I say those differences ought to be celebrated rather than forgotten about, am I right or am I right?).

Interestingly enough, it would be fun to include a few alternate "gendered" animations for a few other things, such as attacks, so as to make possible the "hit like a girl" sort of animation (which would have absolutely no game mechanical difference) which depending on context could either be comedic (big brawny male "hits like a girl" when punching) or even downright frighteningly deceptive (superstrength female "hits like a girl" and just LEVELS foes in one punch anyway). Not saying that such options would need to be included for EVERY animation, but it would probably be a good idea to Keep The Options Open for doing that sort of thing whenever resources become available or inspiration strikes an artist with the tools to make such additions to the library of animations.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Granted, a lot of the combat animations can be "bisexual" in the sense that they'll work just fine regardless of genders ... but there are some movements and animations (walking and running are notable standouts) where "porting" one set of movements over to both genders won't necessarily look as good as they could have with some amount of gender differentiation for male and female animations. Women walk and run with a different gait than men tend to do, and that's almost entirely a difference based on the structural differences in their bodies (and I think I speak for everyone when I say those differences ought to be celebrated rather than forgotten about, am I right or am I right?).
Interestingly enough, it would be fun to include a few alternate "gendered" animations for a few other things, such as attacks, so as to make possible the "hit like a girl" sort of animation (which would have absolutely no game mechanical difference) which depending on context could either be comedic (big brawny male "hits like a girl" when punching) or even downright frighteningly deceptive (superstrength female "hits like a girl" and just LEVELS foes in one punch anyway). Not saying that such options would need to be included for EVERY animation, but it would probably be a good idea to Keep The Options Open for doing that sort of thing whenever resources become available or inspiration strikes an artist with the tools to make such additions to the library of animations.

While I applaud this game's stated goal to make all costume ITEMS be directly available to both the male and female body models I can obviously accept the basic biology that suggests that the two models should have differing animations based on the typical anatomical differences between men and women.

I suppose to be absolutely fair the Devs could ideally develop both a set of typical "male animations" and typical "female animations" then specifically let people decide which of those sets to use regardless of the body model they are using. This would allow people to have "sissy boy" characters or "butch girl" characters just as easily as the more typical combinations.

As far as the "hits like a girl" idea goes I'm open to the idea of having as many aesthetic animation options as possible. This way you could either have your big huge guy punch like a sissy OR have your little girl punch like the Hulk as you'd like.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yup, that's exactly where I

Yup, that's exactly where I was going with that.

Now all we need are the pom-poms of Doom™ (+3) and we're set.


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I checked with our animator,

I checked with our animator, we have separate run and walk anims for male and female.

The engine allows us to have animation layers in runtime. Which means we can switch to having the same model in flat shoes or high heals and the appropriate layer of animations will play. There are required hand adjustments for foot angle and hip swivel as a result of the foot angle, but once it is set up, its pretty much done.

We won’t have to replace the foot woth a pointed toe version causing the leg to be shorter and making the movement anim look weird like the old game.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We won’t have to replace the foot with a pointed toe version causing the leg to be shorter and making the movement anim look weird like the old game.

Woot!

Be Well!
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Granted, a lot of the combat animations can be "bisexual" in the sense that they'll work just fine regardless of genders ... but there are some movements and animations (walking and running are notable standouts) where "porting" one set of movements over to both genders won't necessarily look as good snipped
I suppose to be absolutely fair the Devs could ideally develop both a set of typical "male animations" and typical "female animations" then specifically let people decide which of those sets to use regardless of the body model they are using.

While I don't actually mind this, it is not realistic, at least not without some pretty invasive surgery on the hip joints and pelvic bones.
Women have a different gait from men not because they are feminine but because their hip joints are different, and that in turn is the consequence of having a different pelvic bone (which in turn is because babies need to get born and a 'male' pelvic bone does not allow a baby to develop to 9 months in the womb, the head gets too big)

It would be easier to just give the breast/hip sliders a wider range from non-existent to to K regardless of gender.

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Nadira wrote:
Nadira wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I suppose to be absolutely fair the Devs could ideally develop both a set of typical "male animations" and typical "female animations" then specifically let people decide which of those sets to use regardless of the body model they are using.

While I don't actually mind this, it is not realistic, at least not without some pretty invasive surgery on the hip joints and pelvic bones.

Women have a different gait from men not because they are feminine but because their hip joints are different, and that in turn is the consequence of having a different pelvic bone (which in turn is because babies need to get born and a 'male' pelvic bone does not allow a baby to develop to 9 months in the womb, the head gets too big)

It would be easier to just give the breast/hip sliders a wider range from non-existent to to K regardless of gender.

I'm not denying that the typical (and I'll stress that word "typical") male and female body anatomy is different. I've agreed with that point here and it's the specific justification for why there ought to be an accounting for both "sets" of animation in this game.

But by the same token I've seen far too many "Ladyboys" in places like Singapore who so perfectly mimic the standard "set" of female movements that it's very nigh-impossible to tell they are -not- biological women. Likewise there are plenty of examples of very "butch" females that are so masculine in their movements that it makes sense to allow for that in CoT as well. Tell me that Angel Dust from the 2016 Deadpool movie shouldn't walk a "bit" more like a typical man than a typical woman despite her biological sex:

Look, I get that female hip bones are typically different from male hip bones and that they are "biologically designed" to carry/birth babies and all that boilerplate jazz. Despite ALL of that there are still plenty of NON-TRADITIONAL examples where males can "move" like typical females and vice-versa. Try not to get so hung up on the classical biology issue and realize that basically anyone can potentially move in MANY various ways including against typical gender expectations.

Bottomline if you don't want your boys to walk like girls (or vice versa) then don't select the options to allow for that. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm hoping we can have a

I'm hoping we can have a variety of different stances for how a character stands and walks and such. I thing Star Trek Online has something like that, but it's been ages since I played it.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I'm hoping we can have a variety of different stances for how a character stands and walks and such. I thing Star Trek Online has something like that, but it's been ages since I played it.

Sure... It seems the only thing that would prevent us from having multiple animation/stance sets to choose from would be however much time and effort it takes the Devs to create them. It's probably safe to assume they'll manage to have at least two at launch (a default "female" one and a default "male" one) but hopefully they could add more as time allows. The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
I'm hoping we can have a variety of different stances for how a character stands and walks and such. I thing Star Trek Online has something like that, but it's been ages since I played it.
Sure... It seems the only thing that would prevent us from having multiple animation/stance sets to choose from would be however much time and effort it takes the Devs to create them. It's probably safe to assume they'll manage to have at least two at launch (a default "female" one and a default "male" one) but hopefully they could add more as time allows. The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.

Right? It always bugged me that while built on the same engine (I think) STO had more stance options than CO. I would have liked some of the STO ones in CO. Grumble grumble.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:

The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.

Right? It always bugged me that while built on the same engine (I think) STO had more stance options than CO. I would have liked some of the STO ones in CO. Grumble grumble.

Well CO has always been sort of an "unfinished game" in that they never added anywhere near the amount of post-launch content to it that they could have. It was like they got it far enough along to launch but then almost immediately considered it to be in "maintenance" mode ever since. Basically the distance between what CO "could have been" and what it "ended up being" was sadly huge.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.
Right? It always bugged me that while built on the same engine (I think) STO had more stance options than CO. I would have liked some of the STO ones in CO. Grumble grumble.
Well CO has always been sort of an "unfinished game" in that they never added anywhere near the amount of post-launch content to it that they could have. It was like they got it far enough along to launch but then almost immediately considered it to be in "maintenance" mode ever since. Basically the distance between what CO "could have been" and what it "ended up being" was sadly huge.

If a MMO bombs at the start, that's what it tends to become...maintenance mode MMO!

As someone who didn't hate CO's look, who was in the open beta and then day one and saw the changes they made right away and then things just sort of got worse. For one thing, when a build can be made that relies on 2 attacks, a single target and an AOE attack, and kick that much butt, something, imo, is wrong.

Not that I didn't love my Two Gun Mojo and [forgot the other name for the awesome looking AOE :p], however, that just left me with self surviving powers and concept powers. Okay, for that one build it was fun :p However, when I went outside the guns and did that same thing...gaaaaah. The animations were lacking to make it fun. Then they would constantly nerf :/ Never fun on that either.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.
Right? It always bugged me that while built on the same engine (I think) STO had more stance options than CO. I would have liked some of the STO ones in CO. Grumble grumble.
Well CO has always been sort of an "unfinished game" in that they never added anywhere near the amount of post-launch content to it that they could have. It was like they got it far enough along to launch but then almost immediately considered it to be in "maintenance" mode ever since. Basically the distance between what CO "could have been" and what it "ended up being" was sadly huge.
If a MMO bombs at the start, that's what it tends to become...maintenance mode MMO!
As someone who didn't hate CO's look, who was in the open beta and then day one and saw the changes they made right away and then things just sort of got worse. For one thing, when a build can be made that relies on 2 attacks, a single target and an AOE attack, and kick that much butt, something, imo, is wrong.
Not that I didn't love my Two Gun Mojo and [forgot the other name for the awesome looking AOE :p], however, that just left me with self surviving powers and concept powers. Okay, for that one build it was fun :p However, when I went outside the guns and did that same thing...gaaaaah. The animations were lacking to make it fun. Then they would constantly nerf :/ Never fun on that either.

I had enough "faith" in the game that I bought a lifetime sub for it. There were bits and pieces of it I genuinely liked but ultimately I think I gave it roughly six months before I stopped playing it. Oh well... :(

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
The stances that games like STO and CO allowed for were really some of the best parts of those games' respective character creation features.
Right? It always bugged me that while built on the same engine (I think) STO had more stance options than CO. I would have liked some of the STO ones in CO. Grumble grumble.
Well CO has always been sort of an "unfinished game" in that they never added anywhere near the amount of post-launch content to it that they could have. It was like they got it far enough along to launch but then almost immediately considered it to be in "maintenance" mode ever since. Basically the distance between what CO "could have been" and what it "ended up being" was sadly huge.
If a MMO bombs at the start, that's what it tends to become...maintenance mode MMO!
As someone who didn't hate CO's look, who was in the open beta and then day one and saw the changes they made right away and then things just sort of got worse. For one thing, when a build can be made that relies on 2 attacks, a single target and an AOE attack, and kick that much butt, something, imo, is wrong.
Not that I didn't love my Two Gun Mojo and [forgot the other name for the awesome looking AOE :p], however, that just left me with self surviving powers and concept powers. Okay, for that one build it was fun :p However, when I went outside the guns and did that same thing...gaaaaah. The animations were lacking to make it fun. Then they would constantly nerf :/ Never fun on that either.
I had enough "faith" in the game that I bought a lifetime sub for it. There were bits and pieces of it I genuinely liked but ultimately I think I gave it roughly six months before I stopped playing it. Oh well... :(

I bought the lifetime sub for it too. Less out of faith and more out of simple math. If it lasted for 3 years (believe that's what it was) then anything after meant I had sub perks while not paying anymore. :)

It's also one of the reasons I don't think offering lifetime subs is a good idea.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I had enough "faith" in the game that I bought a lifetime sub for it. There were bits and pieces of it I genuinely liked but ultimately I think I gave it roughly six months before I stopped playing it. Oh well... :(

I bought the lifetime sub for it too. Less out of faith and more out of simple math. If it lasted for 3 years (believe that's what it was) then anything after meant I had sub perks while not paying anymore. :)

It's also one of the reasons I don't think offering lifetime subs is a good idea.

Well I suppose my "faith" in question was more of a calculated assumption that the game would be worth playing at least as long as the "lifetime sub threshold" where the game would then be effectively free to play. Either way I suppose I technically didn't get my money's worth.

My main problem with lifetime subs (that I only finally decided on just a few years ago) is that even if a game is doing great the lifetime sub eventually represent a loss of income from me as a player. When I'm enjoying something (like a game) I don't mind continually supporting it financially to make sure it stays around. While a lifetime sub might make things easy for me as a player (no monthly bill) it eventually forces me to the point where, paradoxically, it becomes hard to pay for something I actually -want- to keep paying for to keep it going. It's ultimately self-defeating for a company to offer them, as history seems to be proving with games like CO.

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Exactly. If you want this

Exactly. If you want this type of game to stay going, have to keep supporting it somehow.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Exactly. If you want this type of game to stay going, have to keep supporting it somehow.

Lifetime subs could also make the developers lazy. Why bother working hard to add new content and keep their players happy? You bought the lifetime sub. They already have your money. I think it comes down to... Do you trust the developers to keep working on it and making it better?

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RandomZombie wrote:
RandomZombie wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Exactly. If you want this type of game to stay going, have to keep supporting it somehow.
Lifetime subs could also make the developers lazy. Why bother working hard to add new content and keep their players happy? You bought the lifetime sub. They already have your money. I think it comes down to... Do you trust the developers to keep working on it and making it better?

I feel it's less "We already have your money" and more "We won't see your money ever again, so meh to you." A slight difference :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

RandomZombie wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Exactly. If you want this type of game to stay going, have to keep supporting it somehow.
Lifetime subs could also make the developers lazy. Why bother working hard to add new content and keep their players happy? You bought the lifetime sub. They already have your money. I think it comes down to... Do you trust the developers to keep working on it and making it better?
I feel it's less "We already have your money" and more "We won't see your money ever again, so meh to you." A slight difference :p

I just have to imagine the CO devs are greedy and only care about money, not the players. :P Why else let a game with such potential, one of the only actual superhero MMO's available after CoH shut down, just go to waste? They made their money with it and continue to make money with minimal to no effort. Need some quick cash? I know! Let's create some actual content and gameplay mec-- Nah. More loot crates. Another costume set that's the same as what we already have just a little different. So to me as a player it's a trust thing. I didn't trust the CO devs to continue making their game so there was no way I was going to buy a lifetime sub. And knowing what I know now I wouldn't give CoH a lifetime sub either, but that's due to not trusting NCSoft.

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RandomZombie wrote:
RandomZombie wrote:

I just have to imagine the CO devs are greedy and only care about money, not the players. :P Why else let a game with such potential, one of the only actual superhero MMO's available after CoH shut down, just go to waste? They made their money with it and continue to make money with minimal to no effort. Need some quick cash? I know! Let's create some actual content and gameplay mec-- Nah. More loot crates. Another costume set that's the same as what we already have just a little different. So to me as a player it's a trust thing. I didn't trust the CO devs to continue making their game so there was no way I was going to buy a lifetime sub. And knowing what I know now I wouldn't give CoH a lifetime sub either, but that's due to not trusting NCSoft.

I bought a lifetime sub for CO because I loved CoH for years beforehand and the company which had developed CoH, Cryptic Studios, was also developing CO so at the time it seemed completely worth it. Also remember that they only sold the lifetime subs (at least when I was involved with it) BEFORE the game launched so there was no "20/20 hindsight" to suggest that CO was going to be a disappointment AFTER launch. Basically everything pointed to it being a reasonable gamble because I had every reason to trust in Cryptic Studios, at least at the time.

Obviously with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight it was clearly not worth buying the lifetime sub for that game. But since it's now been over 8 years since it happened it's not something I dwell on. Heck, I probably drop more in restaurant tips per month than the cost of that lifetime sub. *shrugs*

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Lothic, you summarize

Lothic, you summarize perfectly what i did with my lifetime subscription. I'll never do that again :/ (except maybe for CoT cause now i "know" the team and the spirit of CoT, i could be a pigeon again :D

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People knew CO. Then launch

People knew CO. Then launch day happened :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I bought a lifetime sub for CO because I loved CoH for years beforehand and the company which had developed CoH, Cryptic Studios, was also developing CO so at the time it seemed completely worth it. Also remember that they only sold the lifetime subs (at least when I was involved with it) BEFORE the game launched so there was no "20/20 hindsight" to suggest that CO was going to be a disappointment AFTER launch. Basically everything pointed to it being a reasonable gamble because I had every reason to trust in Cryptic Studios, at least at the time.

I bought my lifetime sub to CO for the same reason. Plus they were advertising features like power tinting and selectable emanation points which CoH didn't have yet (and they claimed would be too difficult to ever implement).
Even then, I wrangled with the decision until almost the end of the offer. If memory serves, they acted like it was a one-time deal.

Hindsight...

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

Hindsight...

Is for shooting deer? I'll be here all week, folks!

I wonder if there will be the possibility to select something like sashay for walking - well, strutting - around.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I wonder if there will be the possibility to select something like sashay for walking - well, strutting - around.

I guess it sort of depends on how MWM will implement a "Walk" mode in the first place. The Walk power in CoH was a less-than-ideal compromise because they couldn't change all of the original combat animations to account for someone "fighting while walking". That's why when you used the Walk power it locked pretty much every other power you had to prevent you from "fighting while walking".

I'm hoping the walk mode in CoT will be a little more integrated into the basic system so that players could choose to dynamically "shift" between walking and the "standard" Jog speed without having to have any other powers locked down to do it.

As far as the "sashay" for walking idea goes I'm all for it. The actual walk animation in CoH wasn't that bad (again if you disregarded the whole all your other powers being locked down thing). Hopefully there will be several types of Walk styles to choose from so that you can "customize" your type of walk to each character or be able to switch between them on the fly.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

This attention may seem a bit ridiculous, but I have to agree with Lothic that the lack of difference between the male and female crotches was one of the first things I noticed and it actually made me a bit uncomfortable.

That sense of unease is quite similar to what a lot of women feel with games that put excessive emphasis on female anatomy and/or general sexiness.

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RandomZombie wrote:
RandomZombie wrote:

Brand X wrote:
RandomZombie wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Exactly. If you want this type of game to stay going, have to keep supporting it somehow.
Lifetime subs could also make the developers lazy. Why bother working hard to add new content and keep their players happy? You bought the lifetime sub. They already have your money. I think it comes down to... Do you trust the developers to keep working on it and making it better?
I feel it's less "We already have your money" and more "We won't see your money ever again, so meh to you." A slight difference :p
I just have to imagine the CO devs are greedy and only care about money, not the players. :P Why else let a game with such potential, one of the only actual superhero MMO's available after CoH shut down, just go to waste? They made their money with it and continue to make money with minimal to no effort. Need some quick cash? I know! Let's create some actual content and gameplay mec-- Nah. More loot crates. Another costume set that's the same as what we already have just a little different. So to me as a player it's a trust thing. I didn't trust the CO devs to continue making their game so there was no way I was going to buy a lifetime sub. And knowing what I know now I wouldn't give CoH a lifetime sub either, but that's due to not trusting NCSoft.

Companies offering life time subscriptions are almost always a sign of desperation. Or at least a desperate need for operational funds.

Unless the game is expected to disappear within the time that the cost of the life time subscription exceeds that of the monthly subscription (which incidentally also would be a case of fraudulent business practice), the company trades a greater long term profit for a smaller short term immediate cash influx.
Usually life time subscriptions are offered under one of two circumstances: the publisher demands an immediate recoup of his investment, which the developer can not meet because the business model produces a steady income over years, not months. This happens less often than it used to, with publishers getting used to the business model of online games. However, what we are seeing instead is the push for aggressive monetisation practices (season passes, paywall locked content and lootboxes (in particular)).

The other common reason is when the developer shifts less boxes than expected and runs out of cash to maintain the development staff. They need an additional investment quickly. This used to be to fund the move from development to maintenance mode with minimal effort going into repackaging existing content into gambling opportunities for a handful of really big spenders. Nowadays it also is commonly used to finance the shift from subscription to free to pay to play business models.

Greed is rarely a factor in this (as life time subscriptions actually represent a net loss for the game). A more reliable indicator for greed as a motivation is in how aggressively the design is created, or shifted to, skinner boxes, gambling systems and promoting addictive systems in the game.

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Nadira wrote:
Nadira wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

This attention may seem a bit ridiculous, but I have to agree with Lothic that the lack of difference between the male and female crotches was one of the first things I noticed and it actually made me a bit uncomfortable.

That sense of unease is quite similar to what a lot of women feel with games that put excessive emphasis on female anatomy and/or general sexiness.

So you can sympathize with Huckleberry's "unease" at having to play male characters who always look like smooth Ken Dolls while also sympathizing with women who don't like to see "excessive emphasis on female anatomy/sexiness" in their games? Isn't that just the tiniest bit hypocritical on your part? Based on this it sounds like you'd be fine with a game that has its females in burkas and men running around with noticeably huge "summer sausages" in their pants. That's literally what you're flipping this around to.

The point I was making way-back-when is that it would only BE FAIR that if a game like this is going to allow for options to enhance the anatomically correct "sexiness factor" for female characters that it should ALSO let male characters appear in the game with their own respectively reasonable anatomically correct bulges in their pants.

Frankly I'm sick of playing games with only Barbie (with her rigid breasts) and Ken (with his smooth crotch) dolls. I'd simply like to live long enough to see a game like this finally provide fully anatomically correct body models at least once before I die. We already know CoT will not have the "balls" (no pun intended) to do it so I'll be impatiently waiting for the NEXT game to finally man-up and break that glass ceiling of censorship.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic, Nadira, I'm gonna

Lothic, Nadira, I'm gonna stop you there. This is not the place to lay out gender politics and anatomical correctness.

Yes, this thread deals with the animation differences between male and female body types. that does not mean we need to go into a big spiel about about how sexy said models should be. Again.

The way the bodies shape out is at the discretion of the devs, as this thread is for the animations. If you want to discuss anatomy, this is not the place for it; go put it in the character creator, suggestions, or general discussion forums.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

Lothic, Nadira, I'm gonna stop you there. This is not the place to lay out gender politics and anatomical correctness.
Yes, this thread deals with the animation differences between male and female body types. that does not mean we need to go into a big spiel about about how sexy said models should be. Again.
The way the bodies shape out is at the discretion of the devs, as this thread is for the animations. If you want to discuss anatomy, this is not the place for it; go put it in the character creator, suggestions, or general discussion forums.

Well I'm not sure you have any "authority" to stop what's being said on these forums but as always I didn't REHASH this topic - I simply responded to Nadira and her own "necro-response" to a post from Huckleberry that was over two month old.

If people want to keep me quiet about these things all they need to do is stop bringing these things up themselves. I have never STARTED these lines of discussions, ever. *shrugs*

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I know, and really it was

I know, and really it was more directed at Nadira, but you didn't have to respond.

Look, we're a good community, and we all try to be pleasant to each other, but after the massive discussion on the breast jiggle topics between Nadira and a bunch of other people, including you, I'd seriously appreciate it if that sort of argument didn't happen here, particularly given it's off topic for the thread at hand. If it was in a thread specifically aimed at the character models, fine, but I'd rather not watch this one turn into another extended back-and-forth, and so I felt the need to step in before this hit a more aggressive point.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

I know, and really it was more directed at Nadira, but you didn't have to respond.
Look, we're a good community, and we all try to be pleasant to each other, but after the massive discussion on the breast jiggle topics between Nadira and a bunch of other people, including you, I'd seriously appreciate it if that sort of argument didn't happen here, particularly given it's off topic for the thread at hand. If it was in a thread specifically aimed at the character models, fine, but I'd rather not watch this one turn into another extended back-and-forth, and so I felt the need to step in before this hit a more aggressive point.

I didn't even use the word "jiggle" here first. *sigh*
Quit while you're ahead...

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I believe the Devs have

I believe the Devs have mentioned a 'package slider' positively.

I kinda agree with Nadira, but more from a 'hyperfocus on sexy bits' angle. Such focus is not what I expect this game to be about. For one thing, I expect some players will be upset if 'sexy bit sliders' can't be turned up to eleven, or twelventeen. And there will probably be players that get annoyed if they do go up that far.

In fact, I agreed, in principle, with Lothic's stand on the 'animated chest', but not at the expense of other animations that I valued more highly.

I would argue, instead of for 'anatomical correctness', for practicality and have all of the characters wearing appropriate support garments to protect their physical assets, but there are people who just want to let it all hang out.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I expect players to be upset

I expect players to be upset if their character can't look good period. Hell, I'll be upset if my characters doesn't look like they could come from a good comic (so Jim Lee, J Scott Campbell, Michael Turner, Tony Daniel...etc) and not something that looks like it came from (currently) Valiant Online. :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Nadira wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
This attention may seem a bit ridiculous, but I have to agree with Lothic that the lack of difference between the male and female crotches was one of the first things I noticed and it actually made me a bit uncomfortable.
That sense of unease is quite similar to what a lot of women feel with games that put excessive emphasis on female anatomy and/or general sexiness.
So you can sympathize with Huckleberry's "unease" at having to play male characters who always look like smooth Ken Dolls while also sympathizing with women who don't like to see "excessive emphasis on female anatomy/sexiness" in their games? Isn't that just the tiniest bit hypocritical on your part? Based on this it sounds like you'd be fine with a game that has its females in burkas and men running around with noticeably huge "summer sausages" in their pants. That's literally what you're flipping this around to.

Congratualtions.
You managed to read the exact opposite of the point I made in what I wrote.

Also, you then compound your assumption by making a further logical fallacy in attributing to me an argument I never ever made. That's a specific variation of a straw man argument to claim that your ridiculous extreme is the same as the argument I made. Except that I did not even make /that/ argument either.

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I think a middle ground would

I think a middle ground would be to have, instead of male and female animations rooted to the rig, "stances" that could be applied to any avatar. You'd then have masculine and feminine stances, these would change their core idle motions run/walk and maybe have an effect on certain e-motes. New stances could be added later like Beast, Feline, Alien, Goop, King, Queen, "Queen". I think that aligns well with the whole idea of this thread of being able to seamlessly transfer animations from one gender to the next. Some other games have had this sort of thing in the past. The one that springs to mind is SWG but those were more flavor. In that game setting your stance was more setting an "emotion" like sleepy or grumpy or happy (dwarves?) but it would have an effect on how certain e-motes would work, facial expressions, and flavor text. I think stances could be a little broader than that. Though it would be nice to have that same sort of chat interface to quickly switch between them like SWG.

It's not a middle ground. It's just ground. Cover all the ground. All of it.

PS please record the Mocap session for the "Queen" stance, that'd be delightful.

(at)Roxanna - Little Sister - Plutonium Bloom - MilkShakes
Triumph
Guardian
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Dev Tracker: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fixing-dev-digest
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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think a middle ground would be to have, instead of male and female animations rooted to the rig, "stances" that could be applied to any avatar. You'd then have masculine and feminine stances, these would change their core idle motions run/walk and maybe have an effect on certain e-motes. New stances could be added later like Beast, Feline, Alien, Goop, King, Queen, "Queen". I think that aligns well with the whole idea of this thread of being able to seamlessly transfer animations from one gender to the next. Some other games have had this sort of thing in the past. The one that springs to mind is SWG but those were more flavor. In that game setting your stance was more setting an "emotion" like sleepy or grumpy or happy (dwarves?) but it would have an effect on how certain e-motes would work, facial expressions, and flavor text. I think stances could be a little broader than that. Though it would be nice to have that same sort of chat interface to quickly switch between them like SWG.
It's not a middle ground. It's just ground. Cover all the ground. All of it.
PS please record the Mocap session for the "Queen" stance, that'd be delightful.

+1

I think your suggestion is the simplest and most elegant solution. It also opens up options that would not otherwise be available.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Redlynne
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Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Kiyori Anoyui
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Found this article randomly

Found this article randomly about what it would look like if all the male super heroes posed like Wonder Woman and I thought I would share it

https://jezebel.com/5829204/if-male-superheroes-posed-like-wonder-woman

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Brand X
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Seen that before, thought it

Seen that before, thought it was stupid then, still seems that way.

For one thing, it's always some lousy artist doing it. So they make it look worse. Then the other is, both genders pose differently. You won't see men doing the bambi pose outside of a joke almost always :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Seen that before, thought it was stupid then, still seems that way.

For one thing, it's always some lousy artist doing it. So they make it look worse. Then the other is, both genders pose differently. You won't see men doing the bambi pose outside of a joke almost always :p

These pictures are drawn by amateurs, frequently well intentioned amateurs. High quality images are not likely to show up.

That you won't see men making such poses is exactly the point of images like this, or the Hawkeye Initiative.
Gender(*) swapping representations is a technique to reveal subconscious bias.
The fact that we experience these poses as a joke, and a bad one at that, on men, should alert us to the fact that it is no less ridiculous on female characters. Just near ubiquitous and because of that disappearing beyond notice in the background radiation of games and comics.

(* feel free to replace gender with any other minority that is usually stereotyped)

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