Announcements

This week's oneshot update is live!
Join the discussion, and don't forget to leave other update ideas in our FAQ Feedback thread.

9 Upcoming MMORPGS in 2018 (CoT was mentioned)

133 posts / 0 new
Last post
kongman
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/29/2014 - 05:57
9 Upcoming MMORPGS in 2018 (CoT was mentioned)

https://www.mmobyte.tv/9-upcoming-mmorpgs-confirmed-to-be-releasing-in-2018/

Not much news mentioned, but it was mentioned nonetheless.

From the vid:
"Considered the spiritual successor to City of Heroes, City of Titans has very, very large boots to fill. Another Kickstarter funded MMO, City of Titans is The Phoenix Project’s answer to players that are sick of DC Universe Online and Champion’s Online.
Their goal is to deliver a unique MMORPG created from the community of a lost universe, forging forward with the creation of a new community for a new world.
A world containing a wealth of player choices – from a large selection of player powers, to player costumes.
The devs have explained that you will have more control over your character than ever before in a superhero themed MMO.
There still isn’t an entirely large amount of information release on City of Titans yet, but it is scheduled for a Fall 2018 release."

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 33 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
"Start spreading the news, I

"Start spreading the news, I am leaving today, I want to be a part of it, Ti-tan Ci-ty..." - Frank "Dr. Sin" Sinatra

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
[youtube]https://youtu.be

LINK to the City of Titans portion of the video.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Incidentally, as a tangential

Incidentally, as a tangential point, this seems to be slightly relevant to what we want City of Titans to be and become ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Couldn't agree with all the

Couldn't agree with all the video.

P2W is just terrible (B&S) in the end game. Which is what B&S became.

WS you had to find a great group to raid with. The game itself was actually quite fun until you got to end game and ran out of things to do, other than dailies that didn't really help you get further if you still weren't with some awesome raid group.

Tera was focusing on a race for most of the new awesome classes. That was just lame.

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
The generic nature of MMOs is

The generic nature of MMOs is one big reason why I think gear should not be implemented in a supers MMO, at least not in its conventional form.

What about gear contributes to the feel of being a super? Most supers either don't use any gear at all aside from their outfit, or have a small number of irreplaceable items that grow in power with them. In practical effect, the personal items are just physical manifestations of their inner awesomeness. (In Champions terms, few super "items" even qualify as proper foci, most being "in hero ID only" pseudo-foci.)

The whole gear treadmill of constantly acquiring, using, and then discarding the only things that make you functional is alien to the super mindset. Heroes should not be stealing evidence, and most world-beating villains consider it beneath their dignity to pickpocket fallen foes.

I worry that conventional gear will just contribute to a feeling here of, "WoW in tights."

I'm also a bit skeptical about successfully implementing villains in anything less than a full-on sandbox. Either the villains aren't allowed to win (CoV), or the game world has to go through a lot of changes, some of which may be so destructive that there isn't much playable space left.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
CoH had gear, it just wasn't

CoH had gear, it just wasn't called gear.

Enhancements were just gear that wasn't called chest piece.

Agreed on the villain side, just doesn't seem like one would be a villain outside of the bank robbing variety.

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoH had gear, it just wasn't called gear.

Enhancements were just gear that wasn't called chest piece.

Good point. Gear is just a “thing” you find or earn, then equip, which changes your stats and may give you a new ability or change how an existing one works. It might alter your appearance but since most MMOs these days have some kind of cosmetic option to dictate your appearance independently of equipped gear it might not. So really it’s a matter of semantics.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 1 hour ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
The "gear" in CoX was

The "gear" in CoX was massively customizable compared to standard MMO gear. Want more damage? Done. Want more accuracy? Done. Etc etc.

Honestly more MMOs could benefit from this style of gear. Have stuff for cosmetics, then just slots for stats that you get more of as you level. It'd be better than having to look like a complete berk just because it's statistically superior.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Honestly more MMOs could benefit from this style of gear. Have stuff for cosmetics, then just slots for stats that you get more of as you level. It'd be better than having to look like a complete berk just because it's statistically superior.

I agree completely. Before I played CoH I just blindly accepted that if I wanted the power of the "Superuber +5 Armor of DOOOOM" that I'd just have to accept that my character was going to have to look a certain way while wearing that armor. Now after playing CoH I can hardly stand -any- game that doesn't give me a huge amount of cosmetic freedom to look the way I want to regardless of my gear.

Basically I think CoH has "ruined" me for any game from now on. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The "gear" in CoX was massively customizable compared to standard MMO gear. Want more damage? Done. Want more accuracy? Done. Etc etc.

Honestly more MMOs could benefit from this style of gear. Have stuff for cosmetics, then just slots for stats that you get more of as you level. It'd be better than having to look like a complete berk just because it's statistically superior.

ToR has that too.

Adaptable gear. Pick your costume piece that you can equip (which doesn't matter now that we can thankfully use any gear for the customization of looks). Then pick the mods you want to put in the armor.

Want more damage? Put in mods that increase damage. Want higher endurance, pick mods that focus on endurance over the other aspects.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Honestly more MMOs could benefit from this style of gear. Have stuff for cosmetics, then just slots for stats that you get more of as you level. It'd be better than having to look like a complete berk just because it's statistically superior.

I agree completely. Before I played CoH I just blindly accepted that if I wanted the power of the "Superuber +5 Armor of DOOOOM" that I'd just have to accept that my character was going to have to look a certain way while wearing that armor. Now after playing CoH I can hardly stand -any- game that doesn't give me a huge amount of cosmetic freedom to look the way I want to regardless of my gear.

Basically I think CoH has "ruined" me for any game from now on. ;)

It's why I never got into WoW like the millions upon millions of other people. CoH came out first and it's customization ruined me for other MMOs, that it's harder for me to keep attached to the others.

There's been a few, but then they screw up in other areas so bad :(

warlocc
warlocc's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 54 min ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 16:38
It's strange. "Gearing up" in

It's strange. "Gearing up" in CoH never seemed to have the grind it had in other games, either.

Is that just me?

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Just you. When new awesome

Just you. When new awesome enhancements came out, there was a grind for it.

Or at least one, where people started whining they weren't as good as others, and when it was said "Just go try to obtain these enhancements instead of the ones you're using" there was crying :p

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 1 hour ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
I never did any grinding for

I never did any grinding for enhancements in CoX. You didn't really -need- too, but it gave you those extra like 2.1%s that some people find important.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Scott Jackson
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 4 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 20:13
CoH did at least provide the

CoH did at least provide the most ways to obtain such gear, compared to other games, which made it seem less of a grind to me. There were few restrictions on transferring items within an account or to other players, too.
(lucky RNG drop, buy from marketplace, direct player trading, sharing within supergroup base, collect tokens and exchange for random gear recipe or specific gear recipe)

They also were pretty good about offering a wide range of content that could drop the gear or hand out the tokens needed to buy the gear, instead of restricting it to very specific content that players then grind endlessly (like many games do).

Gah...reminding me how much I miss a well-designed MMO.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I never did any grinding for enhancements in CoX. You didn't really -need- too, but it gave you those extra like 2.1%s that some people find important.

Well, the game was pretty much setup to be done by a team with just SOs. The hunting of enhancements was more for fun things like soloing AVs or running a TF solo. Soloing ITF was just fun :)

Trying to think if running some of the incarnate TFs with just SOed out Scrappers would've worked...not likely.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 25 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
The problem with Specific

The problem with Specific Gear, like the 'Helmet of Awesomeness' is that everyone starts looking the same. In CoH, the Enhancements were not only under Player min/max/balance control, but they had no effect on our Look. Which made them a lot less like typical 'gear' in other MMOs.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
That is easily fixed with

That is easily fixed with costume customization.

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The "gear" in CoX was massively customizable compared to standard MMO gear. Want more damage? Done. Want more accuracy? Done. Etc etc.

Honestly more MMOs could benefit from this style of gear. Have stuff for cosmetics, then just slots for stats that you get more of as you level. It'd be better than having to look like a complete berk just because it's statistically superior.

ToR has that too.

Adaptable gear. Pick your costume piece that you can equip (which doesn't matter now that we can thankfully use any gear for the customization of looks). Then pick the mods you want to put in the armor.

Want more damage? Put in mods that increase damage. Want higher endurance, pick mods that focus on endurance over the other aspects.

ToR actually went even a step farther than that. They introduced a wardrobe function where you could set whatever combination of gear you wanted as your outfit, and that never changed unless you switched to another outfit or directly modified the outfit you were currently wearing.

Your base gear was its own outfit slot, so you could really choose to either keep an Adaptive set modded out to your level and use your base outfit, or you could simply use whatever BiS gear you had and run your other outfit slots instead if you didn't like the look of that gear.

That really comes into play now, with how quickly you chew through levels/content these days. Keeping up to date with adaptive gear is time/cost prohibitive while leveling, so just hide your clownsuit with an outfit you like. (Plus, there are still SOME items that there aren't Adaptive versions of. The Sith Inquisitor's starting shirt, for instance. I use that for one of my sorcerers' outfit.)

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
I have all the Datacrons

I have all the Datacrons unlocked except for Makeb and Rishi, the XP Armor Set, and all class buffs active, which really lets me get through 1-70 without any worries, even though I like to update the other mods every now and again. :)

But yeah, now you can make your character wear whatever you want, which is nice (only limit being level locked items still require the right level).

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 25 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I genuinely prefer for my

I genuinely prefer for my character's awesome powers to come from 'within' rather than from the Omni-zapper I found behind the Titan-Burger one day.

Be Well!
Fireheart

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I have all the Datacrons unlocked except for Makeb and Rishi, the XP Armor Set, and all class buffs active, which really lets me get through 1-70 without any worries, even though I like to update the other mods every now and again. :)

Ah, datacrons.

Only one I don't have is Fleet (cause I'm allergic to grouping :P ). Good god Rishi is a grind, but honestly not nearly as frustrating as Makeb was. The absolute worst one though, IMO is the one on the side of the sandcrawler on Tatooine. Forty minute balloon ride (round trip) every single time you miss the platform (which i did, multiple times). Standing around doing nothing waiting for that stupid balloon gives you plenty of time to stew.

Brand X wrote:

But yeah, now you can make your character wear whatever you want, which is nice (only limit being level locked items still require the right level).

Or not wear whatever you want. I mean... no... I absolutely do not have a Gunslinger who runs around in nothing but his guns...

<.<

>.>

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 1 hour ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Guns out, funs out.

Guns out, funs out.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I have all the Datacrons unlocked except for Makeb and Rishi, the XP Armor Set, and all class buffs active, which really lets me get through 1-70 without any worries, even though I like to update the other mods every now and again. :)

Ah, datacrons.

Only one I don't have is Fleet (cause I'm allergic to grouping :P ). Good god Rishi is a grind, but honestly not nearly as frustrating as Makeb was. The absolute worst one though, IMO is the one on the side of the sandcrawler on Tatooine. Forty minute balloon ride (round trip) every single time you miss the platform (which i did, multiple times). Standing around doing nothing waiting for that stupid balloon gives you plenty of time to stew.

Brand X wrote:

But yeah, now you can make your character wear whatever you want, which is nice (only limit being level locked items still require the right level).

Or not wear whatever you want. I mean... no... I absolutely do not have a Gunslinger who runs around in nothing but his guns...

<.<

>.>

You only need to group once for it now!

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

But yeah, now you can make your character wear whatever you want, which is nice (only limit being level locked items still require the right level).

I still remember when lightsaber color crystals were limited to being Dark/Light side. Boy how times have changed.

Grayfigure
Grayfigure's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 4 days ago
Joined: 08/26/2013 - 13:56
Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I never did any grinding for enhancements in CoX. You didn't really -need- too, but it gave you those extra like 2.1%s that some people find important.

I dunno. Getting Super Reflex Scrapper level Positional Defenses......on an Electric Aura Brute....at Level 35......was about the most fun Id ever had in CoX!

On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
Stands a Figure....of Gray......

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 1 hour ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Grayfigure wrote:
Grayfigure wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I never did any grinding for enhancements in CoX. You didn't really -need- too, but it gave you those extra like 2.1%s that some people find important.

I dunno. Getting Super Reflex Scrapper level Positional Defenses......on an Electric Aura Brute....at Level 35......was about the most fun Id ever had in CoX!

Sweet, glad you had a blast!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brand X wrote:

But yeah, now you can make your character wear whatever you want, which is nice (only limit being level locked items still require the right level).

I still remember when lightsaber color crystals were limited to being Dark/Light side. Boy how times have changed.

Oh yeah. Now all crystals are also level 1, which is nice :) No real point to using those little ones anymore. Go straight to the +41 stat ones.

They said they never should've tied a stat to the crystals and should've left them cosmetic from the beginning.

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
Well, the ship has sailed, I

Well, the ship has sailed, I suppose. Just be careful what you wish for.

The more "typical MMO features" a game has, the more likely it is to wind up a typical MMO.

Visual decoupling helps, but does not eliminate the immersion-breaking nature of slotting something one took off a minion behind Burger Barn. For Madcap or Deadpool homages, I suppose something like that might be in character; for most other supers, it's just absurd.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Well, the ship has sailed, I suppose. Just be careful what you wish for.

The more "typical MMO features" a game has, the more likely it is to wind up a typical MMO.

Visual decoupling helps, but does not eliminate the immersion-breaking nature of slotting something one took off a minion behind Burger Barn. For Madcap or Deadpool homages, I suppose something like that might be in character; for most other supers, it's just absurd.

I'd say that part depends on how much and what kind of immersion one is expecting of the game. By the logic you see to be presenting there (as fas as I can tell) being able to complete change ones own body via costume slots would be more immersion breaking for most. Or what about never having to eat, drink, sleep, or go the bathroom, how immersion breaking is that when contrasted against the in-game day-night cycle?

Cyclops
Cyclops's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 20 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 04/10/2015 - 17:24
Most of those are fantasy

Most of those are fantasy games and I am weary of such things.
after COH I dropped out of MMOs completely and pay to win games kept me from experimenting.

I'm open to a space based MMO, but with COT so close to release I really do not want to be immersed again.

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
I've played ToR, and let me

I've played ToR, and let me say that comparing ToR equipment and CoH Augments is pretty far off. Yes, you can modify ToR gear, but....

1. Some gear or upgrades straight up impossible for you to equip without money spent, anything of artifact rarity. There's a lot of artifacts, to the point that I often have trouble finding new equipment for my level that ISN'T artifact rarity.

2. It's still stat changes, whereas the augments tweaked the powers directly. They can be modified (if you get a orange piece of equipment) but ultimately you don't have the same control over your build.

3. If you don't have orange equipment, the equipment mill is in full swing. I know some people don't dislike that like I do, but still.

4. Your aesthetics are limited to equipment you've found, with no kind of basic aesthetic options. If you want a specific presentation (say, a imperial officer outfit) you need to go hunt down that outfit.

5. Crafting. CRAFTING. In CoH it was minor, on the side, and you could do it whenever you had the bits and get the occasional non-scaling augment. In ToR, you need to choose it as a crew skill, level it, grind for ingredients, and wait. The waiting is the worst part.

Now, CoH did have some of the equipment mill, but it was
1. Predictable: Once every ten levels, or one every five, whatever you wanted.
2. Reliable: You could just get up to date augments from stores, and not worry about them being rendered obsolete by drops.
3. Customizable: If I had a power I almost never used, I could just never mess with it. And if there was a power I honestly never used, I could respec it out.

ToR, you basically have one equipment set that you're constantly moving up and if there's powers you never use (Lightsaber powers for the Sith sorcerer) you're stuck with them and they still on occasion get upgrades from your build.

Even if you ignore the Pay To Win elements, ToR is just another equipment mill, if with some customizable bits.
And a horrible, slow crafting system.

I only play that game because the writing is really good. The writing is good enough I'm willing to suffer the gameplay.

Under Construction...

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
I liked hunting down gear for

I liked hunting down gear for aesthetics. It was a fun challenge and it made my look feel unique.

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 11 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I liked hunting down gear for aesthetics. It was a fun challenge and it made my look feel unique.

Well then, you're in luck.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
It's one thing to hunt down

It's one thing to hunt down special gear for it, that is fun and I liked it in CoH. I didn't do it all that much, but I would have if I had played more.

In ToR, you need to do it for anything. Jedi robe? Soldier armor? Imperial officer uniform? Anything you want you need to hunt down. If there were some basic options I wouldn't be near as hard on it, but as is it's just aggravating. And since most things are random drops or connected to the crafting system, it can be uphill and unreliable.

(Also it takes premium currency to change your hairdo. That's just low.)

Under Construction...

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 33 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
I haven't been a fan of SWTOR

I haven't been a fan of SWTOR since Galactic Command launched and I couldn't advance my gear without being a subscriber. I'm more than willing to pay for story, which I've bought their expansions in years past, but to just grind out gear? Yeahno, I'll pass. But, as you said, Lost Deep, the story was well-done during my various tenures playing.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Lost Deep wrote:
Atama wrote:

I liked hunting down gear for aesthetics. It was a fun challenge and it made my look feel unique.

Yeah I don't really mind the basic idea of having to play the game to earn special cosmetic awards. But I'm a little less supportive of the idea of having to hunt for things just to get basic versions of items. To me there's a fundamental difference between these things.

So sure if you want the hyper-fancy, super duper cowboy hat then yeah make that a special reward you have to work for. But if you just want a plain brown average cowboy hat that should be in the costume creator as a free option or (perhaps at the very worse) be an in-game store item available to anyone for a very small price.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

I've played ToR, and let me say that comparing ToR equipment and CoH Augments is pretty far off. Yes, you can modify ToR gear, but....

1. Some gear or upgrades straight up impossible for you to equip without money spent, anything of artifact rarity. There's a lot of artifacts, to the point that I often have trouble finding new equipment for my level that ISN'T artifact rarity.

2. It's still stat changes, whereas the augments tweaked the powers directly. They can be modified (if you get a orange piece of equipment) but ultimately you don't have the same control over your build.

3. If you don't have orange equipment, the equipment mill is in full swing. I know some people don't dislike that like I do, but still.

4. Your aesthetics are limited to equipment you've found, with no kind of basic aesthetic options. If you want a specific presentation (say, a imperial officer outfit) you need to go hunt down that outfit.

5. Crafting. CRAFTING. In CoH it was minor, on the side, and you could do it whenever you had the bits and get the occasional non-scaling augment. In ToR, you need to choose it as a crew skill, level it, grind for ingredients, and wait. The waiting is the worst part.

Now, CoH did have some of the equipment mill, but it was
1. Predictable: Once every ten levels, or one every five, whatever you wanted.
2. Reliable: You could just get up to date augments from stores, and not worry about them being rendered obsolete by drops.
3. Customizable: If I had a power I almost never used, I could just never mess with it. And if there was a power I honestly never used, I could respec it out.

ToR, you basically have one equipment set that you're constantly moving up and if there's powers you never use (Lightsaber powers for the Sith sorcerer) you're stuck with them and they still on occasion get upgrades from your build.

Even if you ignore the Pay To Win elements, ToR is just another equipment mill, if with some customizable bits.
And a horrible, slow crafting system.

I only play that game because the writing is really good. The writing is good enough I'm willing to suffer the gameplay.

1) Not true. Command XP for Command Crates will get you to artifact level mods (that's 248 mods). No money spent. Just doing such things as dailies. The only artifact equipment that will cost some creds (as they almost never seem to drop in the Command Crates) is the Artifact Level Augments. Which, if you just run the weekly for Solo Ranked Arena (which is 4v4 Go Berserk...basically best 2 out 3 of 4v4...the slowness of it, is just getting enough people to queue for it), will get you the components to build them yourself. If you want to just but them, yeah, it's about 4.5mil a pop on the augment item mod, but the other item mods can easily be obtained free with just playing (bought with in game currency that isn't creds) or possibly obtained with Command Crates.

3) Yeah, they do have normal equipment that doesn't use item mods, however, orange equipment is easy to come by (they have it cheap on Fleet) and lots of cheap pieces on the GTN.

4) True.

5) Took me less than a day to get my crafting from 0-600 though, I had some command crate items already and really didn't worry about it until I was max level (you just don't have to) and the level up mods are pretty cheap. Just remember, you don't need to get new mods every level they become available on Fleet. You can skip most of them. I've gone with level 30ish ones all the way to max level, at which point it didn't take long to get Level 70 minimum gear just from command tokens from command crates.

One doesn't have to P2W with TOR at all. Especially if one uses their double CXP weeks when they do them. Ooooh...the difference in that is so much :)

Now, what gets spendy on TOR is not the mods, it's the outfits! You want an older outfit, that's going to cost creds or wait till it's on the cash shop. It's the outfits and dyes that can cost you in TOR (Black/Black dye going for 15mil creds or 1k Cartel Coins (think that's $5?).

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

1) Not true. Command XP for Command Crates will get you to artifact level mods (that's 248 mods). No money spent. Just doing such things as dailies. The only artifact equipment that will cost some creds (as they almost never seem to drop in the Command Crates) is the Artifact Level Augments. Which, if you just run the weekly for Solo Ranked Arena (which is 4v4 Go Berserk...basically best 2 out 3 of 4v4...the slowness of it, is just getting enough people to queue for it), will get you the components to build them yourself. If you want to just but them, yeah, it's about 4.5mil a pop on the augment item mod, but the other item mods can easily be obtained free with just playing (bought with in game currency that isn't creds) or possibly obtained with Command Crates.

If you're not a subscriber then you can't equip Artifact (purple) rarity items unless those items are grandfathered in (Bound to your character before the F2P launch), or from account Collections Unlocks. For the rest of it you have to buy an Artifact Equipment Authorization to use them.

*Note that this specifically applies to Gear. You can still use artifact+ rarity consumables like Companion Gifts.

velvetsanity
velvetsanity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 19 hours ago
Joined: 04/14/2018 - 19:15
I miss pre-NGE SWG...

I miss pre-NGE SWG...

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
velvetsanity wrote:
velvetsanity wrote:

I miss pre-NGE SWG...

Me too. Teras Kasi FTW!

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
velvetsanity wrote:

I miss pre-NGE SWG...

Me too. Teras Kasi FTW!

I miss pre-CU SWG (Rage of the Wookies expansion), that was the best version imo.

CU was passable but it essentially removed the half-n-half build options.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Brand X wrote:

1) Not true. Command XP for Command Crates will get you to artifact level mods (that's 248 mods). No money spent. Just doing such things as dailies. The only artifact equipment that will cost some creds (as they almost never seem to drop in the Command Crates) is the Artifact Level Augments. Which, if you just run the weekly for Solo Ranked Arena (which is 4v4 Go Berserk...basically best 2 out 3 of 4v4...the slowness of it, is just getting enough people to queue for it), will get you the components to build them yourself. If you want to just but them, yeah, it's about 4.5mil a pop on the augment item mod, but the other item mods can easily be obtained free with just playing (bought with in game currency that isn't creds) or possibly obtained with Command Crates.

If you're not a subscriber then you can't equip Artifact (purple) rarity items unless those items are grandfathered in (Bound to your character before the F2P launch), or from account Collections Unlocks. For the rest of it you have to buy an Artifact Equipment Authorization to use them.

*Note that this specifically applies to Gear. You can still use artifact+ rarity consumables like Companion Gifts.

Still, I wouldn't call "Subs get this" as pay 2 win :p

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Brand X wrote:

1) Not true. Command XP for Command Crates will get you to artifact level mods (that's 248 mods). No money spent. Just doing such things as dailies. The only artifact equipment that will cost some creds (as they almost never seem to drop in the Command Crates) is the Artifact Level Augments. Which, if you just run the weekly for Solo Ranked Arena (which is 4v4 Go Berserk...basically best 2 out 3 of 4v4...the slowness of it, is just getting enough people to queue for it), will get you the components to build them yourself. If you want to just but them, yeah, it's about 4.5mil a pop on the augment item mod, but the other item mods can easily be obtained free with just playing (bought with in game currency that isn't creds) or possibly obtained with Command Crates.

If you're not a subscriber then you can't equip Artifact (purple) rarity items unless those items are grandfathered in (Bound to your character before the F2P launch), or from account Collections Unlocks. For the rest of it you have to buy an Artifact Equipment Authorization to use them.

*Note that this specifically applies to Gear. You can still use artifact+ rarity consumables like Companion Gifts.

Still, I wouldn't call "Subs get this" as pay 2 win :p

I mean, neither would I really, but strictly speaking... it is a flat out numerical advantage and you do have to pay to use it, so...

ThunderCAP
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 56 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/13/2013 - 01:24
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Yeah I don't really mind the basic idea of having to play the game to earn special cosmetic awards. But I'm a little less supportive of the idea of having to hunt for things just to get basic versions of items. To me there's a fundamental difference between these things.

So sure if you want the hyper-fancy, super duper cowboy hat then yeah make that a special reward you have to work for. But if you just want a plain brown average cowboy hat that should be in the costume creator as a free option or (perhaps at the very worse) be an in-game store item available to anyone for a very small price.

I completely agree with this position, it would still give fun and purpose in hunting an item (to have that slightly different piece) but still not ruin the creation of characters like DCUO did.

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Brand X wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Brand X wrote:

1) Not true. Command XP for Command Crates will get you to artifact level mods (that's 248 mods). No money spent. Just doing such things as dailies. The only artifact equipment that will cost some creds (as they almost never seem to drop in the Command Crates) is the Artifact Level Augments. Which, if you just run the weekly for Solo Ranked Arena (which is 4v4 Go Berserk...basically best 2 out 3 of 4v4...the slowness of it, is just getting enough people to queue for it), will get you the components to build them yourself. If you want to just but them, yeah, it's about 4.5mil a pop on the augment item mod, but the other item mods can easily be obtained free with just playing (bought with in game currency that isn't creds) or possibly obtained with Command Crates.

If you're not a subscriber then you can't equip Artifact (purple) rarity items unless those items are grandfathered in (Bound to your character before the F2P launch), or from account Collections Unlocks. For the rest of it you have to buy an Artifact Equipment Authorization to use them.

*Note that this specifically applies to Gear. You can still use artifact+ rarity consumables like Companion Gifts.

Still, I wouldn't call "Subs get this" as pay 2 win :p

I mean, neither would I really, but strictly speaking... it is a flat out numerical advantage and you do have to pay to use it, so...

That would be like saying Champions Online is pay to win because you have to subscribe to make a freeform character who can be optimized beyond the canned archetypes. Technically speaking that's true, but that's not what "pay to win" means. Pay to win doesn't usually mean "if you pay money you get an advantage over someone who doesn't" although it may seem that way; pay to win means that the more you pay the better you are. It has such a huge stigma simply because it benefits "whales" who can buy their way into supremacy over others who try to achieve power through dedication and skill. Getting an advantage because you're supporting the game, and getting the same advantage as everyone else who supports the game, that is not fitting the spirit of the term. If you can drop hundreds or thousands of dollars to get the best gear, powers, and other advantages and others would never get that without spending lots of time or effort (or it's impossible to get it), that's pay to win.

velvetsanity
velvetsanity's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 19 hours ago
Joined: 04/14/2018 - 19:15
blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Atama wrote:
velvetsanity wrote:

I miss pre-NGE SWG...

Me too. Teras Kasi FTW!

I miss pre-CU SWG (Rage of the Wookies expansion), that was the best version imo.

CU was passable but it essentially removed the half-n-half build options.

I never played CU...RL forced me to drop the game for a time so I missed it entirely, I actually resubbed and logged in the day NGE went live...and within an hour had cancelled my subscription.

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
velvetsanity wrote:
velvetsanity wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Atama wrote:
velvetsanity wrote:

I miss pre-NGE SWG...

Me too. Teras Kasi FTW!

I miss pre-CU SWG (Rage of the Wookies expansion), that was the best version imo.

CU was passable but it essentially removed the half-n-half build options.

I never played CU...RL forced me to drop the game for a time so I missed it entirely, I actually resubbed and logged in the day NGE went live...and within an hour had cancelled my subscription.

Then you didn't miss much, outside of the lore and such on Kashyyyk I mean.

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
To clarify, I was not

To clarify, I was not accusing TOR of being pay to win (though I disagree with you on that point). I was instead pointing out the things about the equipment system in TOR compared to the equipment system in CoH and why I feel that CoH had a superior system. It ultimately boils down to ToR being a typical MMO equipment scheme but more complicated, while CoH was unique, communicative, and streamlined. It was straightforward, encouraged critical thought and decision making, and did not require complex investment to get what you wanted.

At the same time the option for complex investment was there (Hami-Os, getting deep into the invention system, set augments, etc), but apart from certain specific things you had access to what you wanted fairly reliably. To this day the augment system is easily my favorite MMO progression system, because it was easy to enter and encouraged some thought. ToR just has an equipment system with a lot of baggage, not all of it good.

Under Construction...

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
Champions Online IS hugely

Champions Online IS hugely pay-to-win. Almost everything good in that game comes out of a gamble box!

Also, being able to sell cash store items on the auction house means that in practice it is easy to convert real-world $ into game currency.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Champions Online IS hugely pay-to-win. Almost everything good in that game comes out of a gamble box!

Also, being able to sell cash store items on the auction house means that in practice it is easy to convert real-world $ into game currency.

This is true of basically all the Cryptic games now. CO, STO, Neverwinter...

In Star Trek Online the entire upper tier of ships are almost exclusively available from the cash shop... at $30 a pop!

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

In Star Trek Online the entire upper tier of ships are almost exclusively available from the cash shop... at $30 a pop!

There's a reason why I stopped playing STO. I saw where the wealth extraction scheme was going and hopped off the merry-go-ROB.

For what it's worth, Perfect World Entertainment (PWE) does essentially this to EVERY game they take over. Turn it into a massively overpowered pew-pew-pew fest, siphoning every cent they can extract out of their customers before letting the house of cards collapse, destroying the game and its community in the process ... and moving on to the next set of suckers. It's essentially "Vulture Capitalism" for gaming at its greediest.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
I'd almost rather that than

I'd almost rather that than what The Old Republic does. Having a membership gives you:
1. increased credit drops
2. no credit cap (yep, there's a cap on the number of credits a free player can hold)
3. bonus drops from some missions
4. bonus experience from every source (completely unneeded, basically guarantees that you're overleveled)
5. ability to use artifact equipment
6. ability to hide your headgear for cosmetics (really)
7. premium currency per month

And I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting things. Overall, it's... equal parts pay to win and entirely excessive. It's almost comical levels of financial villainy. I only play the game for the story, and in spite of most other stuff.

Under Construction...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

In Star Trek Online the entire upper tier of ships are almost exclusively available from the cash shop... at $30 a pop!

There's a reason why I stopped playing STO. I saw where the wealth extraction scheme was going and hopped off the merry-go-ROB.

For what it's worth, Perfect World Entertainment (PWE) does essentially this to EVERY game they take over. Turn it into a massively overpowered pew-pew-pew fest, siphoning every cent they can extract out of their customers before letting the house of cards collapse, destroying the game and its community in the process ... and moving on to the next set of suckers. It's essentially "Vulture Capitalism" for gaming at its greediest.

It's a shame STO went down that rabbit hole. Turns out I stopped playing STO years ago despite it being one of my favorite "genre settings" and it probably would be my default number one choice for a MMO (even over CoH/CoT) assuming that the game that served that "universe" was a good one. Unfortunately the game never quite lived up to what I wanted it to be and with this talk of it becoming a "milk the customers" affair I'm sadly even less inclined to ever return to it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Grimfox
Grimfox's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 29 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/05/2014 - 10:17
Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

I'd almost rather that than what The Old Republic does. Having a membership gives you:
1. increased credit drops
2. no credit cap (yep, there's a cap on the number of credits a free player can hold)
3. bonus drops from some missions
4. bonus experience from every source (completely unneeded, basically guarantees that you're overleveled)
5. ability to use artifact equipment
6. ability to hide your headgear for cosmetics (really)
7. premium currency per month

And I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting things. Overall, it's... equal parts pay to win and entirely excessive. It's almost comical levels of financial villainy. I only play the game for the story, and in spite of most other stuff.

I subbed for about a year before calling it quits and continuing as a free player. For the most part I had earned enough of their cartel cash (premium currency) to purchase all those benefits listed. Though the IGC limit does cause some issues.

There is, however, a glaring omission you made. Being a subscriber also grants you access to support. As a free player you can't open a ticket with support to rectify any issues you may be having with your purchases. I like the starfighter expansion, despite being an on rails shooter, but I can only access 3 missions per week. I purchased access to unlimited missions per week, but that feature is broken. I can't submit a claim without resubbing, and once resubbed, I have access to the feature again, so "no problem." /rant

(at)Roxanna - Little Sister - Plutonium Bloom - MilkShakes
Triumph
Guardian
Virtue

Dev Tracker: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fixing-dev-digest
Dev Comments: https://cityoftitans.com/forum/dev-comments

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I stopped playing STO years ago ... and with this talk of it becoming a "milk the customers" affair I'm sadly even less inclined to ever return to it.

The ULTIMATE "milk the customers" was when they had a one time limited offer of lootboxes that could ONLY be bought AND unlocked through real money transfers to the company which had "endgame" versions of the Constitution class (original series), along with Klingon and Romulan ships (also original series, but in endgame versions) with a sub 0.1% drop rate from the loot boxes.

The in-game economy WARPED in response.

Some people were so desperate for those unique (and promised to never reappear) ships that they spent around $1000 in real money to acquire them. It was perhaps the greatest "whale hunt" in the history of the game, and it was utterly shameless. It was also just incredibly INSANE. Lasted about a month and was a total cash grab without apologies or remorse.

After that, I was just like ... NO MORE.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I stopped playing STO years ago ... and with this talk of it becoming a "milk the customers" affair I'm sadly even less inclined to ever return to it.

The ULTIMATE "milk the customers" was when they had a one time limited offer of lootboxes that could ONLY be bought AND unlocked through real money transfers to the company which had "endgame" versions of the Constitution class (original series), along with Klingon and Romulan ships (also original series, but in endgame versions) with a sub 0.1% drop rate from the loot boxes.

The in-game economy WARPED in response.

Some people were so desperate for those unique (and promised to never reappear) ships that they spent around $1000 in real money to acquire them. It was perhaps the greatest "whale hunt" in the history of the game, and it was utterly shameless. It was also just incredibly INSANE. Lasted about a month and was a total cash grab without apologies or remorse.

After that, I was just like ... NO MORE.

Wow I had no idea it had gotten that bad. Turns out I'm especially fond of Star Trek TOS (I even recall playing with the starter level Connie long after I had gotten bigger/better ships) so I would've gone semi-nuts if I couldn't have gotten the "endgame" version of that ship (not to mention the endgame TOS Klingon/Romulan ships as well).

It's just a real shame the MMO based on that franchise had to end up like that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
Wow. I think I tried STO

Wow. I think I tried STO before they did that (could not stand how it felt like the entire game was a tesselatory set of equipment) because I remember people talking about how they wanted a top-tier constitution refit. That's maybe the single worst way they could have gone about that.

On the other hand, ToR only allowing subscribers to submit support tickets is equally scummy in an entirely different way. I honestly did not know about that one, the game always worked fine for me and I never had a problem with it. But that alone makes me want to cut ties entirely.

Whichever of these you think is worse, The bar for ethics in business in video games is set far, far too low.

EDIT: Another thing I forgot in my list (and relatively minor next to those things): you're limited in the number of power bars you can have as a free player. Yes, even UI customization is worse for free players. The level of pettiness is unimaginable.

Under Construction...

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
I just consider ToR to not be

I just consider ToR to not be FtP. Just like WoW. You can “try” it for free but not really play it.

Since I gamed in the era where every MMORPG required a subscription just to log in, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. But it’s disingenuous for them to present the game as free so I understand the grumbling about it. Blizzard doesn’t seem to shout “We’re free!” as much; I think they make it clear that it’s only free up to a certain level. Honesty helps a lot.

STO is another matter. I like the game and dig my Vulcan captain, his sweet-looking Science vessel, and his ragtag group of female deck officers (Atama’s Angels), so it saddens me to know I’d have to shell out megabucks to do the end-game.

Though NWO is almost as PtW and I tolerate it. That’s mainly because I’m in an awesome guild and I love the gameplay enough to put up with it.

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
My Reman scientist flies a T

My Reman scientist flies a T'Varo variant torpedo boat, so the T'liss temporal warbird is just about the most optimal possible ship for her.

I could either cough up $400, or grind for a year to get that one ship. This February I stopped grinding because CoT should be out within less than a year...

Which brings us back to the advantage that MWM has over Cap'n Ahab MMOs. This is one area where CoT has been promised NOT to be a typical MMO, and honestly MWM should be advertising a LOT more. Tired of predatory pricing and gamble boxes? Check out the financial plans as elucidated by our hero devs!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

OathboundOne
Offline
Last seen: 20 hours 25 min ago
Joined: 03/06/2016 - 16:15
New development in the STO

New development in the STO story:

They're eliminating subscriptions (other than lifetime) and instead introducing a one-time purchaseable "Elite Starter Pack" which grants you some of the subscriber benefits.

Preexisting subscriptions will continue for however long those subs last (or until you cancel them, cause lets face it why pay a $15recurring sub for a 500zen stipend when you can pay a $15 once for all the benefits of a sub except $5 worth of zen). But you can't start a new or renew an old subscription.

People are already speculating that they've figured out an even bigger way to cash in on you, and eliminating subscription stipends in involved somehow.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Surprised we are not.

Surprised we are not.
Disappointed we are.

Star Trek Online might as well be renamed Cash Grab Online.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Surprised we are not.
Disappointed we are.

Star Trek Online might as well be renamed Cash Grab Online.

Ironically I paid for a lifetime sub to STO back in the day because like I said I love Star Trek and assumed I'd be playing that game for years to come. Turns out I'm not sure I even got my full money's worth out of it (if you averaged out the cost of the lifetime sub over however many months worth of subscriptions that would have originally equaled to).

So even with that I still have no motivation to try it again. Oh well... :(

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Beeker
Beeker's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 04/06/2015 - 17:30
So is removal if the

So is removal of the subscription part of the piece meal monetization of every aspect of an MMO-- The new business model for the genre? (SWTOR on steroids?) Or is it just that company's way to get more money in the short-term while they back out of the business of making MMOs? Or is it a new approach to make more money to while a specific MMO kicks the bucket?
Curious what others think the purpose of a non-sub approach might serve.

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 sec ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
Beeker wrote:
Beeker wrote:

So is removal of the subscription part of the piece meal monetization of every aspect of an MMO-- The new business model for the genre? (SWTOR on steroids?) Or is it just that company's way to get more money in the short-term while they back out of the business of making MMOs? Or is it a new approach to make more money to while a specific MMO kicks the bucket?
Curious what others think the purpose of a non-sub approach might serve.

I’m curious about this myself as I don’t know how they survive without subscriptions.

The only mmo I’ve played recently was POE I know they rely heavily on micro transactions for mostly cosmetics but also a variety of stash related features that frankly ought to be standard fair in my opinion but I’m sure they would be subscription based if those things were open to all.

They probably make a killing with the micro transactions compared to the subscription approach.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
My first guess is that it's a

My first guess is that it's a gamble for good PR to counteract something they just did or are about to do. Or maybe just to try to mollify an upset playerbase by taking out the least toxic (but most public) payment.

Or, take a third option: according to a fast google search, they may be adding a new playable faction soon. That is basically a perfect new player hook, and if their marketing data says that people like starter packs and don't like subscription models they might be following the market trend. Apart from that, I wouldn't be surprised if they start selling subscription perks piecemeal (or even with limited uses).

Under Construction...

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

They probably make a killing with the micro transactions compared to the subscription approach.

They do.

I played Lord of the Rings Online for a couple years. It was a subscription game. But it was dying, they couldn’t keep enough players to continue.

They switched to a free model with lots of microtransactions, and not only did they keep the game going, they became more profitable than ever before.

The problem with a subscription-based service is that there is a direct correlation between your population and your income. You need to attract and keep players to make it. But with microtransactions, you only need a handful of people willing to pay huge amounts of money (frequently called “whales”) to profit. It turns out that the FtP model makes more money. So that’s now the standard for MMOs.

Game publishers have to keep a balance, they need to charge enough money for the things players feel they need or really want, but if they charge too much or go too far with the “play to win” tactic they drive away players who feel ripped off. I feel like that’s what STO is doing or about to do.

Project_Hero
Project_Hero's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 1 hour ago
Joined: 10/09/2014 - 11:21
Remember it's not just MMOs

Remember it's not just MMOs that are adopting the cash shop models. Lots of triple A devs are pushing for "Games as services" so even your single player games can be rife with microtransactions and cash shops!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
I’m just glad the Battlefront

I’m just glad the Battlefront controversy happened and there was some pushback, because the whole lootbox gambling system is the worst kind of microtransaction. Having something essential that you can only expect to get by spending tons of money and then you only have a random chance, that’s just sick. I’m okay with paying for something in a game, but only if I’m actually getting what I paid for. Games get a bad enough rap for exploiting those with addiction problems, but to blatantly push people into gambling? That’s a practice that hurts the industry.

Mark my words, if we ever have another video game crash like we had in the 80s, it’s going to come from stuff like that.

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 sec ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
I hope that COT doesn’t go

I hope that COT doesn’t go the micro transactions way as those systems seem to rely heavily on the cosmetic purchases. Since aesthetics is such a prominent feature of the game it seems like a very inappropriate path for them to follow to appeal to the bulk of the supporters...

I’m sure they wouldn’t do this... bad bad idea...

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 16 hours 25 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
We've been told to expect to

We've been told to expect to be able to acquire any cash-shop item through gameplay.

Be Well!
Fireheart

blacke4dawn
blacke4dawn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 3 hours ago
Joined: 03/28/2015 - 03:02
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

We've been told to expect to be able to acquire any cash-shop item through gameplay.

I'm sure they haven't said that we'll be able to attain everything from the cash-shop from in-game play but rather the vast majority, there are some QoL thing that everyone should have to pay for.

I'm fairly sure they have also said, or at least hinted at, that a few costume pieces will be only attainable through in-game play or cash-shop respectively.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

We've been told to expect to be able to acquire any cash-shop item through gameplay.

I'm sure they haven't said that we'll be able to attain everything from the cash-shop from in-game play but rather the vast majority, there are some QoL thing that everyone should have to pay for.

I'm fairly sure they have also said, or at least hinted at, that a few costume pieces will be only attainable through in-game play or cash-shop respectively.

I have absolutely no problem with there being a small handful of things that are either "cash shop only" or "gameplay reward only".

If the cash shop were to allow you to buy "everything" then theoretically a player could buy "everything" without even having to play the game and conversely if a player could get "everything" through gameplay then MWM would lose money because players could completely avoid having to buy -anything- from the cash store.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
My magic measurement for how

My magic measurement for how toxic cosmetic purchases are is how much you get by default. Note that's 'by default' not 'unlocked free'. City of Heroes (of course we were going to come back around to that) had a LOT of stuff available just for free, and it well outnumbered the purchased or unlocked bonuses. You could split hairs over details, but the default stuff had a large variety and looked good!

Overwatch and a lot of MOBAS, where each character has one default and you need to unlock ALL the cosmetics? That's skeevy in my book. That's really skeevy.

Traditional MMOs with cosmetic customization (ToR, GW2, DCO, etc) are a little hard to place on this measurement, but I hope that this kind of communicates my basic idea. I'm happy for CoT to have some premium cosmetics... as long as the default cosmetics are already enough to do 90% of stuff.

Under Construction...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Lost Deep wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

My magic measurement for how toxic cosmetic purchases are is how much you get by default. Note that's 'by default' not 'unlocked free'. City of Heroes (of course we were going to come back around to that) had a LOT of stuff available just for free, and it well outnumbered the purchased or unlocked bonuses. You could split hairs over details, but the default stuff had a large variety and looked good!

I'd agree that a lot boils down to how many costume/cosmetic options are available in a game "by default" versus having to be unlocked (via any method). I think CoH handled things pretty well by having a vast majority (85-90%) of all options be available by default.

The one thing I'd stress is that there should always be "generic/plain" versions of anything for free by default even if there are "fancy" versions of things in the cash store. For example lets say the Devs of CoT wanted to provide a cowboy hat as a costume option. Now I'd have no problem with them creating a super-fancy, gold-plated version of a cowboy hat that was only available in the cash store AS LONG AS they also provided for a simple generic version that was free by default. There should never be a situation where the ONLY way to get a specific type/class of item would be to have to pay for it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

rookslide
rookslide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 47 sec ago
kickstarter
Joined: 09/25/2013 - 10:26
Yes I agree with Lothic on

Yes I agree with Lothic on this one. I’m ok with cosmetics for cash so long as a generic version is available without the purchase.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
Oh yeah, you can have trench

Oh yeah, you can have trench coats with lining or bangles or armor, but please let us also have a generic trenchcoat. It'd also set a good precedent, whenever something really new comes out they can make a generic version of it and get kudos for supporting the variance in the base game.

Under Construction...

Atama
Atama's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 22:32
I agree with you guys.

I agree with you guys.

And I might buy that fancy cowboy hat. YEE-HAW!

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lost Deep wrote:

My magic measurement for how toxic cosmetic purchases are is how much you get by default. Note that's 'by default' not 'unlocked free'. City of Heroes (of course we were going to come back around to that) had a LOT of stuff available just for free, and it well outnumbered the purchased or unlocked bonuses. You could split hairs over details, but the default stuff had a large variety and looked good!

I'd agree that a lot boils down to how many costume/cosmetic options are available in a game "by default" versus having to be unlocked (via any method). I think CoH handled things pretty well by having a vast majority (85-90%) of all options be available by default.

The one thing I'd stress is that there should always be "generic/plain" versions of anything for free by default even if there are "fancy" versions of things in the cash store. For example lets say the Devs of CoT wanted to provide a cowboy hat as a costume option. Now I'd have no problem with them creating a super-fancy, gold-plated version of a cowboy hat that was only available in the cash store AS LONG AS they also provided for a simple generic version that was free by default. There should never be a situation where the ONLY way to get a specific type/class of item would be to have to pay for it.

This has been my position as well since the infamous Fairy Wings Fiasco.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

This has been my position as well since the infamous Fairy Wings Fiasco.

I'm simply curious: What was the "infamous Fairy Wings Fiasco" to you?

The worse thing I can remember about the availability of wings in CoH was the fact that technically none of them were "freely available by default" in the costume creator. The two most fundamental wing styles (Angel and Demon wings) started off as the 15 month Vet awards, but considering they didn't appear in the game until about 2.5 years after launch it pretty much meant anyone who had been solidly playing the game from launch basically got them the instant they became available in the game for free. If you didn't have 15 months worth of Vet status you had to either find the Invention based ones, buy the Invention based ones in the Auction House or buy the ones that they sold in the cash store (a.k.a. Paragon Market).

Perhaps what CoT could do is offer the "classically fundamental" wings (i.e. Angel and Demon wings) as "default for free" in the costume creator then make any other type of wing be ones you either find in the game or buy from the stores. That would seem to be the "fairest" way to handle it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Beeker
Beeker's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 6 days ago
Joined: 04/06/2015 - 17:30
I Faevor that approach as

I Faevor that approach as well.

Gorgon
Gorgon's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 2 weeks ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 05/15/2014 - 11:46
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoH had gear, it just wasn't called gear.

Enhancements were just gear that wasn't called chest piece.

Agreed on the villain side, just doesn't seem like one would be a villain outside of the bank robbing variety.

This kimd of proves the video's point about gear -- it is just to hold stat points and rare effects.

Putting slots in powers so you could change the powers directly was a brilliant move. This was serendipitously forced by the comic book reality of separation of abilities from looks.

You can be super strong and tough because you are made of rocks or steel, or just be a sleek chick of equal strength and durability, as the Deadpool movie had.

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

CallmeBlue
CallmeBlue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 2 weeks ago
Joined: 06/14/2014 - 01:37
Unlike the Angel and Demon

Unlike the Angel and Demon wings, the Fairy wings were craftable from a dropped formula (when they first appeared, at least). I suspect that the devs intended them to be more readily available to newish players.

Well, since "Fairy" is a classic archetype, there was a huge pent-up demand by the time the wings appeared in game, and a speculative bubble formed. I don't have definite proof, but strongly suspect, that the oligopolistic cartels helped the bubble along through every dirty trick in their arsenal, including a certain amount of "buy-and-dump" to prop up prices towards the end.

The result was that the great majority of players for whom the piece was critical to their concept simply could not afford it. While *nobody* had it, well, you could RP around that. But when only certain people had it, and it was just completely out of reach for anyone else, well that bothered a lot of people. It's one thing to grind for a year to get a functional item, like a ship. But to grind for a year for a basic costume item? Now, I never made a fairy character myself, but I did know people who were affected.

When the devs saw what was happening, they increased the drop rate until the bubble deflated; and IIRC fairy wings became one of cheapest costume pieces.

So, long story short, I believe that there should be enough costume items in the base game to cover the great majority of common archetypes (fairy, demon, angel, spy, cowboy/girl, soldier, underpants-over-tights hero, magician, etc.) If they want to add "gold-plated" versions of those pieces to the cash shop, then that's fine by me. But the base items should be freely available to all.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
I had a character that I

I had a character that I wanted the tech wings for. After reading their drop rate I basically gave up on it on the spot; I don't really consider anything below 5% worth the time to grind. I'm not a lucky man. Then again, those tech wings were specific enough that they did have a strong claim to being somewhat exclusive.

Actually, the Sky Raider pack would have been better for that character, but CoH didn't have a lot of enemy parts available to PCs. And the sky raider temp power was lame compared to the dedicated fly power. CoT making that more regular is something I'm looking forward to, even if the most iconic parts need badge unlocks. I'm fine with that, but preferably also give us some generic-brand alternates.

Under Construction...

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

The result was that the great majority of players for whom the piece was critical to their concept simply could not afford it. While *nobody* had it, well, you could RP around that. But when only certain people had it, and it was just completely out of reach for anyone else, well that bothered a lot of people. It's one thing to grind for a year to get a functional item, like a ship. But to grind for a year for a basic costume item? Now, I never made a fairy character myself, but I did know people who were affected.

Lost Deep wrote:

I had a character that I wanted the tech wings for. After reading their drop rate I basically gave up on it on the spot; I don't really consider anything below 5% worth the time to grind. I'm not a lucky man. Then again, those tech wings were specific enough that they did have a strong claim to being somewhat exclusive.

It's true that when the "invention based" wings first came to CoH (in Issue 9) their drop rate was pretty low and they were selling for pretty high prices in the Auction House (like 100k INF each IIRC). Given that those were the only wings available if you didn't have the 15 month Vet angel/demon wings I could see how that probably upset the people who were relatively new players at the time.

But frankly even at that point I don't really remember having too much trouble getting the versions of the invention based wings I wanted in pretty short order. I think I wanted like 3 or 4 or those wings specifically for 3 or 4 of my characters and I had them all within like a week or two without buying them.

Then of course a few months after that (in Issue 10) the Devs of CoH decided to increase the drop rate for those recipes and ended up massively over-correcting. Within another week or two the prices for those recipes had dropped to practically nothing (100 INF?) and they became so common that I'm sure I simply deleted countless numbers of those recipes for years after that.

So again I agree that there should probably be at least a few wing types available in the costume creator by default for everyone but I'll leave it up to the Devs just how they want to handle any other types of wings after that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Mask-of-Many
Mask-of-Many's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 04/16/2018 - 07:49
Honestly, I kind of like how

Honestly, I kind of like how DCUO handles equipment-based cosmetics: you acquire an item, you equip it, the style is unlocked permanently. Ditch the gear, keep the look. There's some harder-to-get event styles, which means events get higher populations of active players teaming together to get those pieces. Heck, at least 75% of the reason anybody plays the seasonal events is for the costume pieces. And there are still lots of basic costume bits at character creation.

Of course, they fall flat with their gamble lootboxes, lack of body sliders, inability to change the material of each costume section (the roughness textures are all over the place, even for matched sets!) & whole categories of styles locked behind a paywall. But the basic mechanics behind their style unlock system is pretty good. I'd like to see CoT either improve on that model, or give us an equally satisfying way of giving us costume pieces as rewards.

Master of the forbidden art of thread necromancy!

Kestrel: Street-level brawler with anger issues. Approach with caution.
Zero Break: Cyberpunk recon specialist.
All-Star: Star-spangled force-blaster & pilot.

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Mask-of-Many wrote:
Mask-of-Many wrote:

Honestly, I kind of like how DCUO handles equipment-based cosmetics: you acquire an item, you equip it, the style is unlocked permanently. Ditch the gear, keep the look.

The invention based costume items from CoH were almost like that. Basically you "crafted" a costume item once you got the recipe for it. The cost/effort to craft such an item was usually pretty trivial and then once you had it done it was permanently unlocked for the character who had crafted it.

Mask-of-Many wrote:

There's some harder-to-get event styles, which means events get higher populations of active players teaming together to get those pieces. Heck, at least 75% of the reason anybody plays the seasonal events is for the costume pieces.

There were actually only a handful of "costume items as mission rewards" in CoH. Many of those required level thresholds to get (i.e. must be level X to run raid Y to get costume item Z). Sounds like CoT is going to offer more things like that but hopefully they won't require as many hard levels thresholds.

Mask-of-Many wrote:

Of course, they fall flat with their gamble lootboxes, lack of body sliders, inability to change the material of each costume section (the roughness textures are all over the place, even for matched sets!) & whole categories of styles locked behind a paywall. But the basic mechanics behind their style unlock system is pretty good. I'd like to see CoT either improve on that model, or give us an equally satisfying way of giving us costume pieces as rewards.

Yeah I again wouldn't mind getting "fancy" versions of things as mission rewards as long as there was always at least a "plain/generic" version for free in the costume creator.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lost Deep
Lost Deep's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/20/2015 - 17:48
My main gripe about DCUO

My main gripe about DCUO cosmetics is that they didn't (Don't? It's been a long time since I played) have enough customization available by default (in my opinion), a lot of it you HAD to get the equipment for. Otherwise the system was okay, even respectable in some ways.

My current understanding of CoT cosmetics is that they'll often be attached to badges. And this has me happy because:

1. No random drops! You'll still need to grind, but it will be a reliable amount of grind.

2. If you want a specific piece you'll be able to hunt down a specific badge.

3. It straight up gives badges more meaning, something I feel that badges really needed in CoH.

Under Construction...

Doctor Tyche
Doctor Tyche's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 11 hours ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/04/2012 - 11:29
CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Unlike the Angel and Demon wings, the Fairy wings were craftable from a dropped formula (when they first appeared, at least). I suspect that the devs intended them to be more readily available to newish players.

Well, since "Fairy" is a classic archetype, there was a huge pent-up demand by the time the wings appeared in game, and a speculative bubble formed. I don't have definite proof, but strongly suspect, that the oligopolistic cartels helped the bubble along through every dirty trick in their arsenal, including a certain amount of "buy-and-dump" to prop up prices towards the end.

The result was that the great majority of players for whom the piece was critical to their concept simply could not afford it. While *nobody* had it, well, you could RP around that. But when only certain people had it, and it was just completely out of reach for anyone else, well that bothered a lot of people. It's one thing to grind for a year to get a functional item, like a ship. But to grind for a year for a basic costume item? Now, I never made a fairy character myself, but I did know people who were affected.

When the devs saw what was happening, they increased the drop rate until the bubble deflated; and IIRC fairy wings became one of cheapest costume pieces.

So, long story short, I believe that there should be enough costume items in the base game to cover the great majority of common archetypes (fairy, demon, angel, spy, cowboy/girl, soldier, underpants-over-tights hero, magician, etc.) If they want to add "gold-plated" versions of those pieces to the cash shop, then that's fine by me. But the base items should be freely available to all.

Instead of costumes being recipe drops, they're badge unlocks. And each badge tells you the progress. So, say you want the "Aether Pirate clockwork wings", you'd need to defeat 50 Aether Pirate raiders, and it would tell you that. Or, you could buy the costume unlock account-wide (but by doing so, you do not get the associated badge).

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Lothic
Lothic's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 00:27
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Instead of costumes being recipe drops, they're badge unlocks. And each badge tells you the progress. So, say you want the "Aether Pirate clockwork wings", you'd need to defeat 50 Aether Pirate raiders, and it would tell you that. Or, you could buy the costume unlock account-wide (but by doing so, you do not get the associated badge).

I recall there were a few "kill badges" in CoH that did not provide a "progress bar" to let you know how far along you were to completing it. The irony of course is that the reason the Devs of CoH said that those particular badges were like that was that they didn't want to "annoy" players with being stuck with a half-filled progress bar that they might not ever be able to finish. Seems like the problem wasn't the half-filled progress bar but the design of the game that could potentially leave you stuck in a situation where you might not ever be able to finish it in the first place.

The prime example of this was the Isolator badge. The Devs of CoH decided to make that an "invisible" badge in terms of not showing a progress bar because originally if you left the Outbreak tutorial without finishing it you could NEVER finish it. Again the "broken" part wasn't the progress bar but the fact that they would ever design a badge trapped in a place a player could never return to.

Hopefully the Devs of CoT will not repeat that same mistake of ever trapping a badge like that. If you never trap a badge then you don't have to worry about hiding the progress bar for it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Pages