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Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

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Huckleberry
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

If the game content is designed in such a way, then I will grant you the competitive advantage of being able to swap to a different build and cede the point to you. In such a case, however, we end up back at the place I hope we don't: to wit, people being 'forced' to change their play style, and even their character concept, in order to beat content most efficiently. I don't like that.

That depends entirely on how you define "most efficiently".
If you mean that every single build (or at least power set and mastery combination) running a fixed "gauntlet" of having a representative encounter from each group one can combat in-game and end up with effectively the same completion time then I would have to say that you are out of your mind. Designing the game in such a way would make it dull single they couldn't have such varying basic play styles.
Even if you mean "efficiently" as having the same survival chances then there will still be enough variances between builds that jumping between them will be worth it, [/b]if you want to be The Most Efficient[/b]. Personally though I hope the variances are not that big that most people (all but min-maxers) will feel that they actually need to switch build to have a decent chance of completing each encounter.

That's not what I meant at all. I think you're asking this question just to belabor the discussion at this point. In fact I used the three specializations of enforcer to show you that play styles would differ but each was at parity. (look again at my post where I mention switching from guardian to bodyguard to striker) Man, I don't really know how more clear I could have been.

Then I went into how if the game design gave a competitive advantage in survivability, there would be an impetus to swap builds to complete it. Perhaps I added the qualifying statement most efficiently in error because it completely sidetracked you from the point I was trying to make.

I personally like a game where different enemies have different characteristics. Because then both the strengths as well as the weaknesses of my own characters come into play. But as soon as you give characters two free character-morphs, you are going to have to expect that players will take advantage of them. The question is: how much of a difference will it make?

So when I stated in order to beat content most efficiently, I meant to just summarize the whole idea that if the difference in play styles is so great that it crosses the threshold of what most players consider acceptable, such that they feel compelled to switch builds in order to complete the content.

And to go back, again, to my original point for others who get easily sidetracked by my admittedly poor word choice:
If MWM states that they can not ask people to pay for alternate builds because it affects gameplay, then one can only conclude that the different build do, in fact, offer a competitive advantage that crosses the threshold. And that paying for them would cause people to cry foul for making it "pay-to-win."

This is all in response to the declaration by MWM that alternate builds can not be cash shop items. While I think it would be a great candidate for cash shop, I am far less concerned with whether or not it is a cash shop item than I am with the reason Tannim stated, which is that it "impacts gameplay."

Like you , I think that the various advantages and disadvantages of the different archetype specializations are part of what makes the game interesting. MWM apparently thinks that those different advantages and disadvantages are so significant that they exceed the threshold of acceptable parity, and so giving players the option to swap builds would be tantamount to giving them a competitive advantage. That's why alternate builds have to be free and not cash shop items.

If anyone from MWM would like to address this, I for one, would be all ears.

And please don't respond with "because CoX did it," because CoX did not have a free-to-play business model.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I really don't know what you

I really don't know what you're even asking at this point. All the content will likely (read most likely) be able to be done by any build. The ease of this however will differ based on what you're against and what you are currently using.

Let's say you make a support character that's built almost exclusively for support and teaming. You take a bunch of your support powers and very little secondary. You'll have a hard time doing content (probably) but thanks to builds you can make yourself a build that is more damage heavy and can clear content more effectively and more efficiently on your own. Then when you find a team you just switch back to support heavy build.

Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.

The options you seem to be seeing are; they're powerful (so people shouldn't pay for them) or their not (so people wouldn't pay for them). Versatility is power. The option to have a leveling build and a raid build is power. Paying for power is wrong and a predatory practice.

At the very least it's a convenience. So you can make "the best healer build" and also have a build that can do other things.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.

By george, I think he gets it!


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.
By george, I think he gets it!

Which would be a bad thing. You do realize this intrinsic fact, right?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.

By george, I think he gets it!

Which would be a bad thing. You do realize this intrinsic fact, right?

Because paying for build-slots would be paying for greater specialization/flexibility, which would be pay-to-win, which we don't want.

Better that everybody has to deal with the same build-slot environment, equally.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Huckleberry
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.
By george, I think he gets it!
Which would be a bad thing. You do realize this intrinsic fact, right?
Because paying for build-slots would be paying for greater specialization/flexibility, which would be pay-to-win, which we don't want.
Better that everybody has to deal with the same build-slot environment, equally.
Be Well!
Fireheart

First, I want to apologize publicly to Project_Hero. My previous remark was snippy and disrespectful and is not in keeping with the positive and constructive attitude I strive to bring to these forums. I'm sorry.

But back to the point, I do not think that is pay-to-win. But I think you may have a point that making people pay for a second build would be disincentivizing them from playing group content. And I have to agree that is not at all appropriate for a free-to-play model.

But that explains one alternate build, not two. What's the gameplay justification for a third build (second alternate build)?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Solo build, teaming build, RP

Solo build, teaming build, RP build, raid build, PvP build, experimental build, helping a friend level build... Take your pick. Or add alternate in front of any of these.

I guess in short it's good to have the option. Also they might have 3 so you can have all different types of secondary. So you can be a Guardian, enforcer, and bodyguard (I think that's all in one primary). That'd help you see if you like the other playstyles without having to level a whole nother character.

Also apology accepted.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Not having builds (available for free) would mean you either have to make a solo leveling build or a support heavy build unless you pay.
By george, I think he gets it!
Which would be a bad thing. You do realize this intrinsic fact, right?
Because paying for build-slots would be paying for greater specialization/flexibility, which would be pay-to-win, which we don't want.
Better that everybody has to deal with the same build-slot environment, equally.
Be Well!
Fireheart
First, I want to apologize publicly to Project_Hero. My previous remark was snippy and disrespectful and is not in keeping with the positive and constructive attitude I strive to bring to these forums. I'm sorry.
But back to the point, I do not think that is pay-to-win. But I think you may have a point that making people pay for a second build would be disincentivizing them from playing group content. And I have to agree that is not at all appropriate for a free-to-play model.
But that explains one alternate build, not two. What's the gameplay justification for a third build (second alternate build)?

I get the feeling that they went with 3 PvE builds just so that if your wanted to you could have 1 of each of the specifications for your archetype. (eg. Enforcer ->Gladiator, Striker, and Bodyguard).

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

I get the feeling that they went with 3 PvE builds just so that if your wanted to you could have 1 of each of the specifications for your archetype. (eg. Enforcer ->Gladiator, Striker, and Bodyguard).

Oh, I don't doubt it.

But the point has been ably made that a second build is a must in order to allow characters to have both a more solo-oriented build and a more team-oriented build. To charge players for the ability to make that second build would be the equivalent of locking team content behind a pay barrier, or at least making team content pay-to-win, which is the same thing. So my question isn't what would we need 3 builds for, my question is what gameplay purpose do we "need" the third build for that makes it improper to charge money for it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I'd say that the only reason

I'd say that the only reason it would be 'improper' to sell the third build-slot is that it's being given to us for free. I would say that the reason it would be 'improper' to sell Any build-slot, is that it would allow a person to change the parameters of a conflict, thus allowing them to win more easily. (Paying to win.)

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I would if it would be

I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.

Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.

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At the beginning, the

At the beginning, the question was not to sell or not the third slot ^^ It was "What makes MWM decide to put (so much) 3 additionnal build slots per character ?"
Even if it's not sold on the cash shop, it could be obtain by a huge mission or a badge, but whatever. To my opinion, 1 more slot for pvp is understandable, 1 more for PVE is understandable (solo/group, Dr jekyl/hyde, armor set/armor set,…) but i wonder what's the reasons hidden behind giving another additionnal slot.
I don'task for the way to obtain it ^^ i just wonder why 4 ? ^^

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The first build is a

The first build is a necessity; without it you can't play at all. The second build is extra versatility; it makes it easier to overcome a wider variety of content. The third presumably is more versatility, but not as much more as the second. Presumably any of the builds beyond the first two (the basic PvE build and the basic PvP build) can be used as either PvE or PvP builds, so that would make a total of up to six builds for a given character, one each of PvE and PvP for each of the focused playstyles that are currently planned for that archetype, and each new build is of less utility than the one before, but it still has some value, a few more situations that your character can handle better than with any of the previous builds.

And so the question is (unless I'm misunderstanding), why two builds beyond the first PvE and PvP builds, and not more? The only answer I can think of, not being able to tap directly into the dev's thought processes, is "The line has to be drawn somewhere, we think it should be here."

The next question is, will it be possible to change a build, whether through something like a respec trial or simply dumping a huge amount of IGC out of the economy?

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.

A kinetic armor set? I'd be down for that.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.
A kinetic armor set? I'd be down for that.

Walks into thread. Sees current conversation. Whistles innocently and walks back out...


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Huckleberry
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.

I think that's what momentum is. You get hit and it adds to your momentum, and then you can use your momentum for any momentum-cosuming ability you want, offensive or defensive.

I suppose there could be a power set that actually enhances your momentum gain when you get hit rather than relying on base momentum gain. And the set would also include some sort of specialized momentum-powered reflection and/or deflection ability. In fact, It would be pretty cool if the reflection/deflection could be a toggle ability that bleeds off your momentum and the higher the momentum, the more damage it does, but it only lasts as long as you actually have momentum. Or instead of bleeding off momentum, it could just be a power consumer like other togglable abilities.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.
A kinetic armor set? I'd be down for that.
Walks into thread. Sees current conversation. Whistles innocently and walks back out...

Aha! Kinetic armor set confirmed! No one who's innocent whistles innocently!

Hopefully we can also get an Atrophic Melee too :o

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.
A kinetic armor set? I'd be down for that.
Walks into thread. Sees current conversation. Whistles innocently and walks back out...
Aha! Kinetic armor set confirmed! No one who's innocent whistles innocently!
Hopefully we can also get an Atrophic Melee too :o

I think we should call it death armour

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
I would if it would be possible to have a Protection set that had a bit of damage nullification (like Invulnerability but worse) but its primary focus was absorbing power off the attacks, which would fuel a meter that you then use said absorbed energy to strength other techniques of yours.
Sort of the idea, you catch the enemies energy and hit them back with it and yours.
A kinetic armor set? I'd be down for that.
Walks into thread. Sees current conversation. Whistles innocently and walks back out...

Feels like alt confirmed time for me :P

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Gah! I'm greatly looking

Gah! I'm greatly looking forward to this game. A few quick questions though, forgive me if they've already been answered in the previous pages, though I didn't see them.

1) Powersets. We're getting the sets, as discussed, but will they allow us to choose the theme? i.e. Fire, electricity, darkness, plain. My main is a Darkness/Shadow guy, so i'm really hoping that is in at launch.

2) Augmenting. Will these just be small passives like damage/stats/health and such or will they allow for deeper customization like adding after effects like DoTs/heals/life drain?

3) Defense vs CC. Have they mentioned how this will be done? Nothing is worse than building the equivalent of the Juggernaut or Blob, only to see them knocked about like a rag doll. Likewise, having to lose defense for not budging can be annoying or when my psychic is being mind controlled. Will knocks be physics or more of a set distance/landing? One of the more fun things to do it knock an enemy that has just been knocked, sending them flying in a different direction. A melee knocks up followed by a teammates knockback is a fun thing. More so if impact deals damage when they hit walls.

4) Archetypes. Are we picking or building? I keep seeing in mentioned but I'm not sure if it's a set thing or just as a reference point to playstyles.

I'm definitely going to be coming to the forums more often. Too many great things coming, from the sound of it. Too many questions that I look forward to getting answered. This was a great post and i can't wait to know more about the power sets and customizations.

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I can't answer all of these,

I can't answer all of these, but my interpretation is that:

1) The Powersets are basically built from a set 'mechanics', so melee/damage-type/speed/damage-mechanic. Then, we Players can control how it Looks and there are supposed to be modifying-widgets that can be slotted to tweak the mechanics, somewhat. So, you would be able to apply a 'Darkness/Shadow' appearance to your powers, as if they were Costumes for your powers.

2) At this time, DoTs/Heals/Life Drain are mechanics attached to individual Powers, rather than something subject to Augments. Augments and Refinements will be the damage/accuracy/efficiency/recharge modifying mechanism. There are no 'IO Set Bonus' type things, except that each Powerset will have an augmentation slot, where such 'global' modifiers might be inserted.

3) All CC effects are supposed to be non-binary. However, 'Knock' effects will be present, as part of the Powers. It's likely Protection sets will have ways to mitigate both CC and Knock. I have no idea if 'cooperative' Knocks will have accumulative effects.

4) Each AT is associated with a particular Primary mechanic, so picking a Primary or AT will have the same effect. At Launch, each AT/Primary will only have one Secondary available, but two other Secondaries will be rolled out for each AT, post launch. Once Primary and Secondary are established, we'll have Powers to choose. This is all just like CoH.

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Be Well!
Fireheart

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A few corrections to Fireheat

A few corrections to Fireheat’s post:

1. Aestheitcs are separate from mechanics. The player gets to choose how their powers look and animate.
Appearances do not modfy mechanics.

2. We had an update already on Augments and Refinements and plan to have a follow up in the future.
Basicslly Augments improve what thr power does, Refinements improve how well the caster can oerform the action. Yes, we can add additonal effects with these, like a proc for adding a hold effect.

3. Defense reduces a tupe of effect based on its style by a percentage amount. Melee Sefrnse to Controls will reduce control effects from melee attacks.

Knocks are not using physics (entirely). The knock will be a set so there is a fixed distance for up / back and a fixed time frame for reocery from being knocked down.

The engine can track movement which allows us to measure distance with time knocked back / up to balance for being knocked down.

All control effects are non-binary. How well a knock wffect will knock you will be reduced by the appropriate protections. If a knock is meant to throw you back 10’ and you have a 50% defense, you will be knocked 5’.

Desiiring to reduce being controlled as much as possible will mean pickkng the appropriate protection powers and improving them accordingly.

Knocking a target into structuted will not yield bonus damage.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A few corrections to Fireheat’s post:
2. We had an update already on Augments and Refinements and plan to have a follow up in the future.
Basicslly Augments improve what thr power does, Refinements improve how well the caster can oerform the action. Yes, we can add additonal effects with these, like a proc for adding a hold effect.

An update on refinements ? I miss this one (hum sorry if "miss" is not used correctly. it's weird to use ^^ to miss in french is like "you miss me" and "lack of" so... rather think about "lack of" in my sentense ^^)

I wonder, i see lots of alterations on the powers... but i don't see (yet) some powers which remove those alterations, like a support who could take care about his/her teamates. Could we play wit this alteration ? Casting a power to remove one alternation makes you busy so you could not cast another one... It could be a nice gameplay to be able to remove alteration since there are a lot of it in the (agressive) powers.

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Here you go Titanscity: old

Here you go Titanscity: old Augment / Refinement update.

As to what I assume you mean by a support removing debuffs on a group member - the reason you don’t see a cleanse ability is that it would actually be too strong of an effect and tip balance in faovor of buffs. Buffs and debuffs counter one another. Applying the appropriate protections on a group member can reduce the effectiveness of a debuff.


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🤔 right , removing debuffs

🤔 right , removing debuffs would be really strong . I didn't thought of pvp. Just in pve... indeed casting protections or a buff which counter a debuff could be the game i talked about.
Thanks for your answer Tanimm22 :)

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All great news to read.

All great news to read. Thank you Tannim222 and Fireheart for all of that. I'm really looking towards (hopefully) getting into the beta to test how some of this is going to work. I'm definitely planning out a build for a few characters from the other Superhero MMOs, so i'm really curious to see how well i can integrate them into this game and improve them. The information here sounds like there is going to allow for a considerable amount of customizations to tweak and enhance said builds. I'm also curious to see how the game handles pet classes and controllers. Champions had an okay set up but made it relatively useless on anything greater than a rank three villain. DCUO decided to make them power batteries for the DPS and Tanks, which seemed like a weird direction. From the way it sounds, this current set up will allow for some interesting back and forth mechanics for the de/buff crowds.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Here you go Titanscity: old Augment / Refinement update.

Thanks !! ^^ I'll do an article on it :)

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Hey Tannim.

Hey Tannim.

Considering your recent reply here it got me thinking. Could we get a list of all focused playstyles for each basic playstyle?

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Hey Tannim.
Considering your recent reply here it got me thinking. Could we get a list of all focused playstyles for each basic playstyle?

Sure,, however, it is important to remember that Focused Playstyles are categories of templates we use to design power sets. They are not player-side selections.

Melee / Ranged:
Single Target Focused
AoE Focused
Standard
Utility Focused

Protection:
Fortitude Protections
Style Protections
Recover Protections
Aura Protections

Support:
Buff Focused
Debuff Focused
Standard
Location

Control:
Single Target Damage Focused
PBAoE Focused
Location Focused
Utility Focused


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Hey Tannim.
Considering your recent reply here it got me thinking. Could we get a list of all focused playstyles for each basic playstyle?
Sure,, however, it is important to remember that Focused Playstyles are categories of templates we use to design power sets. They are not player-side selections.
Melee / Ranged:
Single Target Focused
AoE Focused
Standard
Utility Focused
Protection:
Fortitude Protections
Style Protections
Recover Protections
Aura Protections
Support:
Buff Focused
Debuff Focused
Standard
Location
Control:
Single Target Damage Focused
PBAoE Focused
Location Focused
Utility Focused

Some of those are pretty nebulous tbh. I'm going to attempt to break down the sets we have by the Foci given and see if I can figure them all out. Some of these are really just best guesses.

Melee
Single Target - Super Strength
AoE - Massive Melee
Standard - Tactical Combat and ?Kinetic Melee?
Utility - Fighting Prowess and ?Kinetic Melee?

Ranged Damage
Single Target - Lethality
AoE - Atropic
Standard - Force
Utility - Psychic (sacrifices damage for higher control) and Vampiric(sacrifices damage for better self-sustain)

Protection
Fortitude (assuming damage type reliant [Physical/Energy/Exotic]?) - Invulnerability and Solid Form
Style (assuming attack type reliant[Melee/Ranged/AoE]?) - Super Agility
Recovery (assuming HP regeneration/recovery) - Grit
Aura (assuming point blank effects reliant upon having enemies nearby to be effective?) - Atropic

Support
Buff - Barrier Generation
Debuff - Vampiric
Standard - Preservation and ?Strategy?
Location - Devices and ?Strategy?

Strategy does seem to have a locational focus (being PBAoE) but not in the sense of creating "summons" at "target location" the way Devices is set up, so /shrug

Control
Single Target Damage - Psychic and ?Gravity?
PBAoE - Illusion
Location - Force
Utility - Power

*I'm not entirely sure where Gravity falls, because though it's blurb states that it's single target focused, it doesn't appear to be Single Target Damage focused given that the bonuses it gets from Gravity Well seem to be control effects. I still lean towards STD (Err... not a great abbreviation to have) both from the Gravity powerset blurb, and because that's what CoH's Gravity Control set was.

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I think Preservation is Buff.

I think Preservation is Buff.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I think Preservation is Buff.

I think, if I remember correctly, the preservation powerset is healing and buffing. Healing however could be described as buffing health.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Some of those are pretty nebulous tbh.

Well, this is for internal design and wasn't really meant for public use. There is a method to my madness just don't expect to understand unless you're ready to go mad ;).

OathboundOne wrote:

I'm going to attempt to break down the sets we have by the Foci given and see if I can figure them all out. Some of these are really just best guesses.
Melee
Single Target - Super Strength
AoE - Massive Melee
Standard - Tactical Combat and ?Kinetic Melee?
Utility - Fighting Prowess and ?Kinetic Melee?

No Melee Utility sets are in our launch window. Fighting Prowess is Standard. Kinetic is Single Target.

OathboundOne wrote:

Ranged Damage
Single Target - Lethality
AoE - Atropic
Standard - Force
Utility - Psychic (sacrifices damage for higher control) and Vampiric(sacrifices damage for better self-sustain)

Lethality and Force are Standard.
Vampiric is Single Target

OathboundOne wrote:

Protection
Fortitude (assuming damage type reliant [Physical/Energy/Exotic]?) - Invulnerability and Solid Form
Style (assuming attack type reliant[Melee/Ranged/AoE]?) - Super Agility
Recovery (assuming HP regeneration/recovery) - Grit
Aura (assuming point blank effects reliant upon having enemies nearby to be effective?) - Atrophic

These are correct.

OathboundOne wrote:

Support
Buff - Barrier Generation
Debuff - Vampiric
Standard - Preservation and ?Strategy?
Location - Devices and ?Strategy?
Strategy does seem to have a locational focus (being PBAoE) but not in the sense of creating "summons" at "target location" the way Devices is set up, so /shrug

Strategy is a Buff Focused set. The rest is correct.

OathboundOne wrote:

Control
Single Target Damage - Psychic and ?Gravity?
PBAoE - Illusion
Location - Force
Utility - Power
*I'm not entirely sure where Gravity falls, because though it's blurb states that it's single target focused, it doesn't appear to be Single Target Damage focused given that the bonuses it gets from Gravity Well seem to be control effects. I still lean towards STD (Err... not a great abbreviation to have) both from the Gravity powerset blurb, and because that's what CoH's Gravity Control set was.

Gravity and Psychic are Single Target. Gravity's set mechanic has an AoE component, but it requires single targets as the anchor.
Power Control is PBAoE
Illusions is Location
Force is Utility.


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With three Archetypes having

With three Archetypes having Support at release (Operator and Ranger as Secondary, Guardian as Primary), are there any worries of overlap?

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

With three Archetypes having Support at release (Operator and Ranger as Secondary, Guardian as Primary), are there any worries of overlap?

Depends on what you mean by overlap.

If you mean concern over buff / debuff stacking, not really. Our combat system handled stacking quite well. If anything, having plenty of Support sets in use will help us in the long run as data accumulates for our analytics.

If you mean a lot of the same mechanics being used, it is an understandable concern, though not a large one. We have to keep an eye toward the futute where there will be many more sets, so while there might be plenty of Support set Archetypes, there will also be a more sets offering a variety of mechanics.

Aesthetic decoupling I believe will also have a psychological factor to make similar sets “feel” different just because of the appearance. Not to mention how the Arxhetypes themselves will play differently even if using the same sets.


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Also, plenty of proliferation

Also, plenty of proliferation post-launch, as new powersets are produced.

Be Well!
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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

With three Archetypes having Support at release (Operator and Ranger as Secondary, Guardian as Primary), are there any worries of overlap?

From a teaming standpoint - some overlap was actually a GREAT thing in CoH. It helped break up the holy trinity and made a wide variety of team comps possible, even successful.

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To follow-up so there's no

To follow-up: Is there no worry that effective stacking from enough secondary supports, assuming there's still a soft cap of most things via diminishing returns on stacking, will invalidate the uniqueness of the Guardian primary role (even though yes their contribution will be higher based on the mods you explained earlier)?

Edit: though I might have answered my own question relooking at the masteties.

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We ran 'All Defender' teams

We ran 'All Defender' teams on CoH, why would it be an issue in CoT? Let's not forget that this is just for Launch. It will be important to have those support powers running strongly when the 'all offense' ATs roll out.

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We totally did. I loved all

We totally did. I loved all defender teams. The difference is a larger portion of the team being able to stack the buffs/debuffs, where CoX you had several instances of "best buff applies".

All hypothetical but that's why I'm asking Tannim.

Edit: to your second point fire heart, you're absolutely right about post releases specialties.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

OathboundOne wrote:
I'm going to attempt to break down the sets we have by the Foci given and see if I can figure them all out. Some of these are really just best guesses.
Melee
Single Target - Super Strength
AoE - Massive Melee
Standard - Tactical Combat and ?Kinetic Melee?
Utility - Fighting Prowess and ?Kinetic Melee?

No Melee Utility sets are in our launch window. Fighting Prowess is Standard. Kinetic is Single Target.

Ah, now this makes me wonder what exactly a "Utility" melee set entails. Will it be similar to the Utility ranged set? Lower damage output for greater control ability? A Melee version of the Psychic Blast set, essentially. Or would that cause some concern with stepping on the toes of the future Manipulation specifications?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
I'm going to attempt to break down the sets we have by the Foci given and see if I can figure them all out. Some of these are really just best guesses.
Melee
Single Target - Super Strength
AoE - Massive Melee
Standard - Tactical Combat and ?Kinetic Melee?
Utility - Fighting Prowess and ?Kinetic Melee?
No Melee Utility sets are in our launch window. Fighting Prowess is Standard. Kinetic is Single Target.
Ah, now this makes me wonder what exactly a "Utility" melee set entails. Will it be similar to the Utility ranged set? Lower damage output for greater control ability? A Melee version of the Psychic Blast set, essentially. Or would that cause some concern with stepping on the toes of the future Manipulation specifications?

Mainly it is the structure of the template which differs from Standard since Utility is still a mix of aoe and single target. It is closer toward Manipulation. Think Ice Melee as a source of inspiration.


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Im excited to learn more

Im excited to learn more about the masteries once information is available. Specifically Guardians Aftermath has me salivating.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Im excited to learn more about the masteries once information is available. Specifically Guardians Aftermath has me salivating.

Informations are already available for masteries, look at this post https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129526#comment-129526

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Super M. wrote:
Im excited to learn more about the masteries once information is available. Specifically Guardians Aftermath has me salivating.
Informations are already available for masteries, look at this post https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129526#comment-129526

Thank you for the reply. That's the information that I've been looking at, and while some are familiar or are easy to infer, others I'm awaiting more info on (probably not till beta... or at least much closer) to figure out exactly how they function as game changers.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
Super M. wrote:
Im excited to learn more about the masteries once information is available. Specifically Guardians Aftermath has me salivating.
Informations are already available for masteries, look at this post https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129526#comment-129526
Thank you for the reply. That's the information that I've been looking at, and while some are familiar or are easy to infer, others I'm awaiting more info on (probably not till beta... or at least much closer) to figure out exactly how they function as game changers.

And I'm almost certain MWM has said that they'll come out with an updated post about Masteries.

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Oh really? I thought their

Oh really? I thought their last blurb WAS the updated post on masteries but man I'd be excited if they did.

Then I could update all 25 of my builds with more hypothetical information :p

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As always getting more info
Super M. wrote:

Oh really? I thought their last blurb WAS the updated post on masteries but man I'd be excited if they did.

As always getting more info from the Devs is always helpful and I'd be looking forward to getting clarifications for how the Masteries will work. But I think there's already a good deal to look at for understanding what going on here by using information from CoH.

First of all for those who played CoH it appears that CoT Masteries are just an expansion of the original Inherent Powers that every archetype (AT) had back in CoH. Basically every AT in CoH (Scrapper, Blaster, etc.) had these unique hardwired inherent powers that helped to define them. For example Controllers had something called Containment which would automatically allow them to do extra damage to any target that was already Held, Immobilized, Slept or Disoriented. Most of these Inherent Powers were just automatic effects but a few (like the Dominator's Domination power) were actual clickable powers that would be manually usable in specific situations.

So it looks like the Devs of CoT took the old idea of hardwired Inherent Powers and made them something that people will be able to CHOOSE from in the form of Masteries. This is an interesting idea because it means that instead of say every AT X always having Inherent Power Y we will now have a choice of which "inherent powers" you want.

So let's take a quick look at one CoT AT just to get a better feel for where this is going. Looking at the Operator Masteries we have the following (my comments appear in red):

    Magnitude: Improves the Operator’s ability to land critical controls.
    This looks like it'll allow players to increase their built-in chances to do critical Mezzes.
    Oppression: Foes which are locked down take more damage.
    This looks like the old Controller Containment Inherent Power from CoH.
    Focus: Attacks by allies on controlled targets gain bonuses.
    A new power created for CoT that's obviously good for team-oriented builds.
    Restrainment: Your controls gain effectiveness as your target's health is lowered.
    This looks like it'll allow players to indirectly increase the built-in durations of their Mezzes.
    Supremacy: Attacks enable you to build up to unlocking your full potential.
    This looks like the old Dominator Domination Inherent Power from CoH.

Now we also know we'll have 3 Mastery slots for each character and that each Mastery has 3 tiers. We can take all 3 from a single Mastery or mix and match. Even this seems straightforward enough. Let's take the Operator Magnitude Mastery as an example. Let's assume the base hardwired chance to score critical Mez is 5%. Now with three tiers of Magnitude available one could easily imagine that tier one would raise that to say 7.5%, tier two might raise that to say 10% and tier three maybe to like 15%. So if you really wanted to be big on critical mezzes you might spend all three of your mastery slots on that. On the other hand if you wanted a little bit of everything you might spend one slot each on three different Masteries so you could be like tier one on say Magnitude, Focus and Restrainment for whatever that might be worth.

The key idea is that the CoT Devs are taking the old hardwired Inherent Powers (that we used to have no choice about) and making them something that we can use to make our characters more unique/specialized. Your version of a Stalwart with powersets X, Y and Z might work very differently from my XYZ Stalwart just because our Masteries might be radically different, which is a cool thing. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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It absolutely is a cool thing

It absolutely is a cool thing and I'm excited for the system and the customization it provides.

I'm very curious about the Guardian ones, as I may be able to speculate but I'm very curious to see how each of those change the ATs playstyle

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While I'm thinking about it

While I'm thinking about it - I wonder if any of the level 3 or 7 "defining" abilities will make it on tertiary lists.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I'm very curious about the Guardian ones, as I may be able to speculate but I'm very curious to see how each of those change the ATs playstyle

Well for the Guardian Masteries I would read up on the original CoH Inherent Powers Scourge and Vigilance with maybe some of the old Leadership Power Pool stuff too. It looks like they are taking "bits and pieces" of those those powers and reworking them into new formulations for the Guardian Masteries.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Super M. wrote:
I'm very curious about the Guardian ones, as I may be able to speculate but I'm very curious to see how each of those change the ATs playstyle
Well for the Guardian Masteries I would read up on the original CoH Inherent Powers Scourge and Vigilance with maybe some of the old Leadership Power Pool stuff too. It looks like they are taking "bits and pieces" of those those powers and reworking them into new formulations for the Guardian Masteries.

I don't see a scourge analog on the Guardian section, I do see it in the Ranger however. (Remember Corruptors were ranged primary first).

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I don't see a scourge analog on the Guardian section, I do see it in the Ranger however. (Remember Corruptors were ranged primary first).

You have to think outside the box. Scourge had an effect that as a Corruptor's foe health wanes, the Corruptor can start to land Scourge hits with his attack powers for up to double damage. So this establishes the general idea of getting bonuses based on whether you're "winning" or "losing" the fight. That concept applies to both the Ranger Elimination/Resolve Masteries but also the Guardian Sentry/Vindication Masteries as well. They are like opposite sides of the same coin.

Obviously like I said it'll be good to get more details but generally it looks like most of the CoT Mastery powers have their origins in original CoH powers.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

While I'm thinking about it - I wonder if any of the level 3 or 7 "defining" abilities will make it on tertiary lists.

I seriously doubt it since they are supposed to be completely mutually exclusive, and also defining to that power set.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Oh really? I thought their last blurb WAS the updated post on masteries but man I'd be excited if they did.
Then I could update all 25 of my builds with more hypothetical information :p

I seem to remember something about them making a post/announcement about Masteries the way they have recently done about Powers, Aesthetics, and such. Essentially, this is what is to 99.99% locked for launch.

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Alright so I have a question.

Alright so I have a question.... is it at all possible to make a guardian that's solely based around debuffs, with rarely a regular buff in sight? Cause I have this character idea for a villain that debuffs people ALOT and I'm wondering if there's just enough debuffs in, let's say, strategy to make a guardian that only debuffs?

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Also, is lethality's

Also, is lethality's resistance debuffs at applicable to aftermath's ability to spread debuffs and buffs around and stack them?

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Short answer ... sure ... but

Short answer ... sure ... but you'll need to select your Power Picks carefully in order to do so.

Will doing that be Optimal? Probably not. But that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Note that it was possible to selectively pick your Powers in City of Heroes to be debuffs only.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Short answer ... sure ... but you'll need to select your Power Picks carefully in order to do so.

From where does this certainty come? We've seen a total of 2 powers from every set.


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Well if I can still do it by

Well if I can still do it by taking the debuffs of other support sets through tertiary's then I'll stil be happy... I mean the original CoX had stuff like Blappers and huntsman, you know AT's that the player managed to make by themelves. I can probably jury rig something up when the game comes out.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so I have a question.... is it at all possible to make a guardian that's solely based around debuffs, with rarely a regular buff in sight? Cause I have this character idea for a villain that debuffs people ALOT and I'm wondering if there's just enough debuffs in, let's say, strategy to make a guardian that only debuffs?

There are Support Sets deigned with a Debuff Focused playstyle which would make it easier to make such a character. Strategy is a Buff Focused set, so while it does have some debuffs, you be leaning more on Tertiaries if you chose that set. Vampiric Emanation is the only Debuff focused launch set. There will be more in the future.

notears wrote:

Also, is lethality's resistance debuffs at applicable to aftermath's ability to spread debuffs and buffs around and stack them?

Aftermath will work with all the applicable effect types the character uses, regardless it is a Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary. The effects can stack, but stacking effects is not additive in value. You do gain an increase by stacking, just not in the way you are used to thinking if you think in terms of the old game. Keep in mind, this is subject to change based on testing. We may have to limit certain aspects of what works with this Mastery (this goes for all powers really).


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
notears wrote:

Alright so I have a question.... is it at all possible to make a guardian that's solely based around debuffs, with rarely a regular buff in sight? Cause I have this character idea for a villain that debuffs people ALOT and I'm wondering if there's just enough debuffs in, let's say, strategy to make a guardian that only debuffs?

There are Support Sets deigned with a Debuff Focused playstyle which would make it easier to make such a character. Strategy is a Buff Focused set, so while it does have some debuffs, you be leaning more on Tertiaries if you chose that set. Vampiric Emanation is the only Debuff focused launch set. There will be more in the future.

notears wrote:

Also, is lethality's resistance debuffs at applicable to aftermath's ability to spread debuffs and buffs around and stack them?

Aftermath will work with all the applicable effect types the character uses, regardless it is a Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary. The effects can stack, but stacking effects is not additive in value. You do gain an increase by stacking, just not in the way you are used to thinking if you think in terms of the old game. Keep in mind, this is subject to change based on testing. We may have to limit certain aspects of what works with this Mastery (this goes for all powers really).

Alright cool thanks :]

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