Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

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Tannim222
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Soulwind wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

I'm sure it's been talked about already, but I can't find anything specific, so ...
I understand that Control effects won't be binary like in CoH. To me that sounds like a weakening of them.
Which would be understandable as, let's face it, Control in CoH was seriously overpowered.
A majority of my characters were Controllers, so while I loved it, I also understood how powerful it really was.
On the other hand, Control effects in many (most) games out there are so minor as to be pointless [1 second holds, really?!?],
often amounting to not much more than interrupts and minor stumbling blocks in the enemy's attack chain.
So, on a scale of 1 (Guild Wars 2 controls) to 10 (CoH controls), where is CoT going to sit?

Hmm...it doesn't work like either until it does. Our duration times are much shorter than the old game due to equating pvp metrics, but they have a...variance of duration off their base depending on the rank of foe you are facing. They last longer against lower ranks than higher ranks, and pcs is an equivalent to one of our higher ranks. So let's say 4-8? I certainly wouldn't call them weaker other than the shorter duration issue. When you used a control in the old game, it either took effect, or if not, it did nothing (on the control side of things). Our game, a control will always have some form of effect on the target and if stacked, will completely control them. In that sense, they are better than the old game

Pyromantic wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:
What a great step forward, so that we can now see the powersets taking shape!
Could you clarify the meanings of resistance and damage subtraction
Subtraction occurs before Resistance, reduces damage by a fixed amount, but works for very small amounts. Resistance reduced by percentage, works against all effects.
Protections (in order), Evasion, Defense, Subtraction, Resistance, Healing / Regeneration.
Are evasion and defense analogous to subtraction and resistance? As in, does evasion reduce chance to hit by a flat amount and defense reduce chance to hit by a percentage?
When you list healing and regeneration in order, do you just mean in the sense that they can only be applied after you take damage, or am I missing something?

Evasion is avoiding attacks by style (melee, ranged, aoe) and works against Accuracy in our hit roll calculation. Defense is sort of a style-based version of resistance, it lowers the impact range of an effect after a hit is occurs. You're not missing anything regarding healing or regeneration. I listed them last because they take place after taking damage as you said.

Redlynne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Atrophic Radiance is a damage shield done the way the old game couldn't do damage shields. The old game ticked damage out at regular intervals once it was active, even if no one was around.
Their engine wasn't set up to have effects trigger off being hit per my conversations with a dev back then.
We can set that up so with this power, if you are hit in melee range, damage is dealt back out.
And it does say in the description of the set that it has less sustainability (read protections) in favor of more damage. Once again, there are more powers in this set.
In World of Warcraft parlance, this would be known as a Thorns type effect (so named for the Druid spell of exactly that name).
When something hits you, they automatically receive damage as a result of hitting you. It's basically a form of damage reflection which causes your enemies to "hurt themselves" by hitting you.

Not exactly, only because we use the term Reflection for a specific effect.

Recoil is damage dealt to the attacker when it successfully hits the target with a recoil effect on it.
Reflection is a portion of damage dealt that is resisted and sent back automatically to the attacker (melee or ranged).
Deflection is a portion of damage dealt that is defended and sent back to possibly hit any selected target within range (melee for melee attack, range for ranged attacks).


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Recoil is damage dealt to the attacker when it successfully hits the target with a recoil effect on it.
Reflection is a portion of damage dealt that is resisted and sent back automatically to the attacker (melee or ranged).
Deflection is a portion of damage dealt that is defended and sent back to possibly hit any selected target within range (melee for melee attack, range for ranged attacks).

So recoil is a flat amount that does not depend on defensive stats nor the incoming damage while reflection and deflection depends on ones respective defensive stats and the damage of the incoming attack?

I think what Redlynne was trying to get at is that none of these effects traditionally falls under the term "damage shield". That is normally used for buffs that absorb the damage instead of your health pool, like WoW's Power Word: Shield.

Btw, do you have any such mechanic on the table? Couldn't see anything even hinting at it.

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Awesome. Super excited

Awesome. Super excited knowing/to know more about the powersets. I think I'm going to have to play test ALL THE SETS just to even know what I want to make! (Except for Gravity. I've always had a soft spot for Gravity, so even if the set sucks I'll still play it.) :p

blacke4dawn wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Recoil is damage dealt to the attacker when it successfully hits the target with a recoil effect on it.
Reflection is a portion of damage dealt that is resisted and sent back automatically to the attacker (melee or ranged).
Deflection is a portion of damage dealt that is defended and sent back to possibly hit any selected target within range (melee for melee attack, range for ranged attacks).
So recoil is a flat amount that does not depend on defensive stats nor the incoming damage while reflection and deflection depends on ones respective defensive stats and the damage of the incoming attack?
I think what Redlynne was trying to get at is that none of these effects traditionally falls under the term "damage shield". That is normally used for buffs that absorb the damage instead of your health pool, like WoW's Power Word: Shield.
Btw, do you have any such mechanic on the table? Couldn't see anything even hinting at it.

The Devs in CoH had just started introducing this mechanic at the tail end of CoX. They called it Absorb, over there. I think the only live set that had it was Nature Affinity, but future issues were adding additional Absorb powers with Bio Armor, Radiation Armor, Martial Combat, Blaster's new Ice Manipulation "sustain" power, and the new Healing IO set they were adding.

I'd be curious to know if CoT will have it as well.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Not exactly, only because we use the term Reflection for a specific effect.
Recoil is damage dealt to the attacker when it successfully hits the target with a recoil effect on it.
Reflection is a portion of damage dealt that is resisted and sent back automatically to the attacker (melee or ranged).
Deflection is a portion of damage dealt that is defended and sent back to possibly hit any selected target within range (melee for melee attack, range for ranged attacks).

The complexity! I love it!

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Oh man, I'm so excited. This

Oh man, I'm so excited. This just opened up my characters to conceptualization!

My two favorite setups (that is, dumping oodles of pets on my target, or going with a super regeneration brute) unfortunately won't be available at launch, but it's very nice to see all this going through already, and the design space these are in gives me a lot of hope for the future.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Recoil is damage dealt to the attacker when it successfully hits the target with a recoil effect on it.
Reflection is a portion of damage dealt that is resisted and sent back automatically to the attacker (melee or ranged).
Deflection is a portion of damage dealt that is defended and sent back to possibly hit any selected target within range (melee for melee attack, range for ranged attacks).
So recoil is a flat amount that does not depend on defensive stats nor the incoming damage while reflection and deflection depends on ones respective defensive stats and the damage of the incoming attack?
I think what Redlynne was trying to get at is that none of these effects traditionally falls under the term "damage shield". That is normally used for buffs that absorb the damage instead of your health pool, like WoW's Power Word: Shield.
Btw, do you have any such mechanic on the table? Couldn't see anything even hinting at it.

Redlynne had it right by referencing thorns from WoW (though the mechanic is older than wow).

I only meant to clarify the distinctions for how we are labellling and applying mechanics.

Yes we can do damage absoption shields.


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How do you distinguish

How do you distinguish between Fighting Prowess and Kinetic Melee? What is the difference between these two?

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Elios Valoryn wrote:
Elios Valoryn wrote:

How do you distinguish between Fighting Prowess and Kinetic Melee? What is the difference between these two?

Fighting Prowess generates a Defense buff on you as you attack.

Kinetic Melee debuffs your target's damage and buffs your own damage which can increase based on Momentum.

They also have different focused play styles.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Fighting Prowess generates a Defense buff on you as you attack.
Kinetic Melee debuffs your target's damage and buffs your own damage which can increase based on Momentum.
They also have different focused play styles.

Thank you for the clarification, is there a forum post where I can read about all of them?

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Elios Valoryn wrote:
Elios Valoryn wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Fighting Prowess generates a Defense buff on you as you attack.
Kinetic Melee debuffs your target's damage and buffs your own damage which can increase based on Momentum.
They also have different focused play styles.
Thank you for the clarification, is there a forum post where I can read about all of them?

Top menu row -> Guides -> Character Construction -> Power Sets.

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i wonder : where is the list

i wonder : where is the list of primary and secondary sets for each archetype or class ?

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Up above, in the navigation

Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.

Thank you and blacke4dawn

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.

Hum... that's not what i meant my friend :)
I wonder, how do i know which p^rimary set and which secondary set is available for the commander (for exemple) or for the enforcers ? i don't think a "tank" could have pets and ranged attacks :) They have Protection in primary and Melee secondary, what about the other archetypes ? (or maybe i'm an idiot and i don't read correctly the pages of the character creation ^^)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.
Hum... that's not what i meant my friend :)
I wonder, how do i know which p^rimary set and which secondary set is available for the commander (for exemple) or for the enforcers ? i don't think a "tank" could have pets and ranged attacks :) They have Protection in primary and Melee secondary, what about the other archetypes ? (or maybe i'm an idiot and i don't read correctly the pages of the character creation ^^)

Commanders are NOT available at game launch TitansCity. So no primary or secondary options have been listed as of yet.

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Right, the hotel is opening

Right, the hotel is opening with a 'No Pets' policy, which will be relaxed as further development allows.

Be Well!
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did you notice the "'for

did you notice the "'for example" ? :D

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.
Hum... that's not what i meant my friend :)
I wonder, how do i know which p^rimary set and which secondary set is available for the commander (for exemple) or for the enforcers ? i don't think a "tank" could have pets and ranged attacks :) They have Protection in primary and Melee secondary, what about the other archetypes ? (or maybe i'm an idiot and i don't read correctly the pages of the character creation ^^)

There was a chart released a while ago - assuming it is still accurate it goes a little something like this:

STALWARTS:
Primary Powers:
Protection
Secondary Powers: Melee Damage
- Assault (post-launch)
- Manipulation (post-launch)

ENFORCERS:
Primary Powers:
Melee Damage
Secondary Powers: Protection
- Manipulation (post-launch)
- Support (post-launch)

RANGERS:
Primary Powers:
Ranged Damage
Secondary Powers: Support
- Manipulation (post-launch)
- Protection (post-launch)

GUARDIANS:
Primary Powers:
Support
Secondary Powers: Ranged Damage
- Assault (post-launch)
- Manipulation (post-launch)

OPERATORS:
Primary Powers:
Control
Secondary Powers: Support
- Assault (post-launch)
- Ranged Damage (post-launch)

And the COMMANDERS, when they eventually make it into the game:
Primary Powers: Summons (Pets)
Secondary Powers:
- Assault
- Manipulation
- Support

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What's the difference between

What's the difference between "Protection primary" (STALWARTS) and "Protection secondary" (ENFORCERS), the max number of powers you can select in that tree or the max tier you can reach in it or both or else?

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

What's the difference between "Protection primary" (STALWARTS) and "Protection secondary" (ENFORCERS), the max number of powers you can select in that tree or the max tier you can reach in it or both or else?

The difference is Secondary Sets aren't as effective as the Primary versions. You get access to the same number of powers, Secondary slots open up at later levels compared to Primary.


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

The complexity! I love it!

Me too! Can't wait to dive into some serious buildcraft. When is the planner coming out? I've already mapped out all my mains.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
Foradain wrote:
Up above, in the navigation bar, there is a tab "Guides" with subtabs "Character Construction", "Power Sets", and then each role.
Hum... that's not what i meant my friend :)
I wonder, how do i know which p^rimary set and which secondary set is available for the commander (for exemple) or for the enforcers ? i don't think a "tank" could have pets and ranged attacks :) They have Protection in primary and Melee secondary, what about the other archetypes ? (or maybe i'm an idiot and i don't read correctly the pages of the character creation ^^)
There was a chart released a while ago - assuming it is still accurate it goes a little something like this:
STALWARTS:
Primary Powers: ProtectionSecondary Powers: Melee Damage
- Assault (post-launch)
- Manipulation (post-launch)
ENFORCERS:
Primary Powers: Melee DamageSecondary Powers: Protection
- Manipulation (post-launch)
- Support (post-launch)
RANGERS:
Primary Powers: Ranged DamageSecondary Powers: Support
- Manipulation (post-launch)
- Protection (post-launch)
GUARDIANS:
Primary Powers: SupportSecondary Powers: Ranged Damage
- Assault (post-launch)
- Manipulation (post-launch)
OPERATORS:
Primary Powers: ControlSecondary Powers: Support
- Assault (post-launch)
- Ranged Damage (post-launch)
And the COMMANDERS, when they eventually make it into the game:Primary Powers: PetsSecondary Powers:
- Assault
- Manipulation
- Support

Thanks for that ! With this information, i finished to fill my paper on titanscity.com on the power système :)

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I think the discussion What

I think the discussion What is a Power Set Made of is going to confuse a lot of people.

In it you go through the developer's process of designing a powerset. However, everyone who reads it is going to be looking at it from the perspective of a player designing a character. Thus the mention of choosing a speed (quick, medium or slow) gives players the impression they will get to pick the speed of their abilities. While it is great to have this insight into how you designed powersets, I don't think the value of such insight outweighs the confusion it causes by including it in the summary.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I think the discussion What is a Power Set Made of is going to confuse a lot of people.

i agree ^^ at first read, that was i thought (but, i'm not a native english speaker, this explains probably that)

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Great update. I love that

Great update. I love that Super Senses will be a tertiary, as it fits my primary character concept perfectly, and it's always been an extremely useful ability in comics.

Can we get a hint on how super senses will function mechanically?

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We'll the game begin with Set

We'll the game begin with Set Bonuses for CoT's equivalent to IOs (Boosts they were called?)?

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Great update. I love that Super Senses will be a tertiary, as it fits my primary character concept perfectly, and it's always been an extremely useful ability in comics.
Can we get a hint on how super senses will function mechanically?

They are intended for some time post launch. These will center around a sense - such as X-Ray Vision.

Brand X wrote:

We'll the game begin with Set Bonuses for CoT's equivalent to IOs (Boosts they were called?)?

No. There will be basic crafting.


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I always like the (pen and

I always like the (pen and paper) Champions power of N-Ray Vision ... which allowed you to see through everything EXCEPT a "common substance" (such as lead, etc.).

I then joked that I always wanted to have super with N-Ray Vision that could see through anything except Corn Flakes In Milk.

The looks that people gave me when confronted with the idea that Corn Flakes In Milk qualified as a "common substance" capable of blocking N-Ray Vision was just priceless.


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No set bonuses with

No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(

I second that. I never really used the set bonuses or understood them but once I found out how they worked, it added a whole new layer to the game. I hope it does happen down the road eventually, even if its after launch.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(
I second that. I never really used the set bonuses or understood them but once I found out how they worked, it added a whole new layer to the game. I hope it does happen down the road eventually, even if its after launch.

It was a fun aspect of the game for many of us too! A part of CoH, which this games says it wants to emulate, but wants to skip out on something that was became a big part of it.

Also, that aspect may encourage others to stay with the game, as the set bonuses made for a bit of equipment upgrade/obtain system, that lots of players want in their MMO, and CoH lacking in the beginning hurt it.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(

The game isn't going to begin with them, it isn't even going to begin at thenmax level cap. We have to add things in stages.


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Well, as long as we get them,

Well, as long as we get them, but I do feel not having them to start could hurt the game in the beginning.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, as long as we get them, but I do feel not having them to start could hurt the game in the beginning.

There will be basic crafting and you won't have all your powers yet o even get toward socketing set augments. There will be plenty to do without fiddling over bonuses at launch.


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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Well, as long as we get them, but I do feel not having them to start could hurt the game in the beginning.

I think we are going to be so overwhelmed by this new game with all the areas to explore, baddies to fight, and new friends to make that we wont even miss set bonuses at first. It should definitely be available within the first year of the game imo, but I really don't think I will even make a serious character that requires set bonuses for a while after launch.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(

* cough *

... endgame ...

* hiccup *


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Yes, I know end game.

Yes, I know end game. However, that doesn't mean it won't have people showing up, then leaving quickly. That's all I'm worried about. :p

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I always like the (pen and paper) Champions power of N-Ray Vision ... which allowed you to see through everything EXCEPT a "common substance" (such as lead, etc.).
I then joked that I always wanted to have super with N-Ray Vision that could see through anything except Corn Flakes In Milk.
The looks that people gave me when confronted with the idea that Corn Flakes In Milk qualified as a "common substance" capable of blocking N-Ray Vision was just priceless.

I've played in plenty of Champs games where people came up with all sorts of seemingly "clever" ways to mitigate Disads for more points.

But I've also played with GMs that would have likely accepted your "joke" character's version of N-Ray Vision without a single word of disagreement and then you would have constantly found yourself fighting in warehouses where mysterious tanks of milk were constantly springing leaks and flooding the surrounding palettes of Corn Flakes...

Basically a good GM (a human one at any rate) can and will always counter anything a player might come up when trying to be "clever" like that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Yes, I know end game. However, that doesn't mean it won't have people showing up, then leaving quickly. That's all I'm worried about. :p

If the main reason that some people leave so early really is "no set-bonuses" then I don't think anything would really satisfy them since to me it is such a nitpicky thing to leave about.

The bigger "danger" here is using the argument "we must have X at launch or people may leave" is such a bad one since it can be said about effectively anything, even things that are not planned to be included at all. Enjoy the game as a whole and worry only about how much you can currently mix-max, not what you can do once all the systems are in place.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
No set bonuses with ehancements? I'm kinda sad on that now. How will we build up our heroes to be stronger? Enhancements alone never really felt like building a stronger hero :(
* cough *
... endgame ...
* hiccup *

There is no end game since the aim is to reroll when a character is high level... so there is no end game content for me ^^ (and, in a certain manner, it makes me a little sad, especially if we like our hero and don't want to change it)

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

If the main reason that some people leave so early really is "no set-bonuses" then I don't think anything would really satisfy them since to me it is such a nitpicky thing to leave about.
The bigger "danger" here is using the argument "we must have X at launch or people may leave" is such a bad one since it can be said about effectively anything, even things that are not planned to be included at all. Enjoy the game as a whole and worry only about how much you can currently mix-max, not what you can do once all the systems are in place.

+1

I'll put money on people not staying because, at launch, CoT won't have the content and features that CoH had after nearly ten years of development. As blacke4dawn wrote, those who will be happy are those who can focus on what we do have, rather than on what we don't have.

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I'm expecting to spend a vast

I'm expecting to spend a vast amount of time in the character/costume creator, and so may never play enough to miss any enhancement bonuses!

(insert pithy comment here)

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Unlike most here, I focused

Unlike most here, I focused on a handful of alts in CoH and maxed the crap out of them and spent tons of time tweaking their look and bio. Deeply and fully developing a few charecters in every way is what I really love. So, while creativity is a--perhaps the--key component for the game, "alting IS endgame" doesn't work quite as well for me personally.

Yet, in CoH, there WAS plenty of endgame other than alting. I never ran out of fun stuff to do or new ways to tweak my heroes, and endgame play wasn't all "raiding". Actually, I was horrified after CoH (my first game ever) shut down to find that the endgame of most games is just team raid grinds.

So, while it DOES make sense as a CoH successor to double down on creativity and alting, I hope that the endgame is somewhat balanced and alting doesn't become overwhelmingly focused on to the exclusion of other CoH-type endgame.

There do seem to be hints and indications that there will be other endgame, so that's good. I just hope the other endgame gets a decent proportion of Dev attention.

EDIT: Question- If you have a charachter who's say, a Bulwark, will you be able to respc into a Bastion or Centurion when they are released as long as you keep the same Primary Powerset?

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

EDIT: Question- If you have a charachter who's say, a Bulwark, will you be able to respc into a Bastion or Centurion when they are released as long as you keep the same Primary Powerset?

From all I have read here yes you will be able to.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
If the main reason that some people leave so early really is "no set-bonuses" then I don't think anything would really satisfy them since to me it is such a nitpicky thing to leave about.
The bigger "danger" here is using the argument "we must have X at launch or people may leave" is such a bad one since it can be said about effectively anything, even things that are not planned to be included at all. Enjoy the game as a whole and worry only about how much you can currently mix-max, not what you can do once all the systems are in place.
+1
I'll put money on people not staying because, at launch, CoT won't have the content and features that CoH had after nearly ten years of development. As blacke4dawn wrote, those who will be happy are those who can focus on what we do have, rather than on what we don't have.

I disagree. I think enough time has elpsed that COT will be consi8dered a "New Game."
old timers like me are mature enough to remember COH at launch and will be satisfied with promises of more content in the future.
(and 90% of costume ideas will be covered by spandex)

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

My one reservation is that esthetic decoupling does not seem to be as complete as I had hoped. Still, it's a step up from CoH.

I'm hoping we can still change the look of a power.

For example, my first and probably main character that I'd like to create is a powersuit ranged character with ranged explosives (similar to War Machine from the comics/movies). Looking at the Ranged powersets, it looks like Force Blast would be perfect if I could make it look like I'm firing projectiles at enemies that cause a visual explosion effect, as opposed to something like the optic beams of Cyclops.

From what was revealed in previous updates I think that is doable. I'd also further like it if I could choose what the projectile looked like, and/or make them fire from retractable guns on the body, though I don't know if that's too much to hope for.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

CallmeBlue wrote:
My one reservation is that esthetic decoupling does not seem to be as complete as I had hoped. Still, it's a step up from CoH.

I'm hoping we can still change the look of a power.
For example, my first and probably main character that I'd like to create is a powersuit ranged character with ranged explosives (similar to War Machine from the comics/movies). Looking at the Ranged powersets, it looks like Force Blast would be perfect if I could make it look like I'm firing projectiles at enemies that cause a visual explosion effect, as opposed to something like the optic beams of Cyclops.
From what was revealed in previous updates I think that is doable. I'd also further like it if I could choose what the projectile looked like, and/or make them fire from retractable guns on the body, though I don't know if that's too much to hope for.

That is exactly what the Aesthetic decoupling is for. You choose the looks of a power completely separately from the mechanics.

You will have several emanation points to choose from, some even not on the actual body.
You can also choose props if you want to, that is weapons in the simplest term.
You will also separately choose the body's animation, looks of projectiles and any particle effects.

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The above post is correct.

The above post is correct. One you choose tour emanation point / apply a prop you will then have associated animations for that emanation / prop. You also get to apply particle effects.

The only thing that may affect the animation is ranged and melee attacks - obviously you need ranged particle effects for ranged attacks. But what the particle effects or other animations may look like is not effect by any of the mechanics of a power.


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Do we have any confirmation

Do we have any confirmation of the primary powersets for the archtypes ?

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Do we have any confirmation of the primary powersets for the archtypes ?

See post #109 in this very thread ;^p

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Do we have any confirmation of the primary powersets for the archtypes ?
See post #109 in this very thread ;^p

If thats all still correct then I guess ill have to decide between Ranger and Guardian :( really liked the Operator's emblem

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Atama wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:
My one reservation is that esthetic decoupling does not seem to be as complete as I had hoped. Still, it's a step up from CoH.
I'm hoping we can still change the look of a power.
For example, my first and probably main character that I'd like to create is a powersuit ranged character with ranged explosives (similar to War Machine from the comics/movies). Looking at the Ranged powersets, it looks like Force Blast would be perfect if I could make it look like I'm firing projectiles at enemies that cause a visual explosion effect, as opposed to something like the optic beams of Cyclops.
From what was revealed in previous updates I think that is doable. I'd also further like it if I could choose what the projectile looked like, and/or make them fire from retractable guns on the body, though I don't know if that's too much to hope for.
That is exactly what the Aesthetic decoupling is for. You choose the looks of a power completely separately from the mechanics.
You will have several emanation points to choose from, some even not on the actual body.
You can also choose props if you want to, that is weapons in the simplest term.
You will also separately choose the body's animation, looks of projectiles and any particle effects.

To clarify my comment, I was expecting power sets along the lines of "Slowing Melee" or "Defense Debuff Ranged." You then pick a damage type for your set, and an appearance, which need not duplicate the damage type.

In the ACTUAL schema, it looks like the damage type is baked into the sets, although you will be able to pick an appearance independently. Also, the name "Psychic Blast" is so thematically undecoupled, that I expect to see very few people using it with anything other mentalist appearances.

However, as I said, these are pretty minor quibbles in what is otherwise an advancement for the industry.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Unlike most here, I focused on a handful of alts in CoH and maxed the crap out of them and spent tons of time tweaking their look and bio. Deeply and fully developing a few charecters in every way is what I really love. So, while creativity is a--perhaps the--key component for the game, "alting IS endgame" doesn't work quite as well for me personally.
Yet, in CoH, there WAS plenty of endgame other than alting. I never ran out of fun stuff to do or new ways to tweak my heroes, and endgame play wasn't all "raiding". Actually, I was horrified after CoH (my first game ever) shut down to find that the endgame of most games is just team raid grinds.
So, while it DOES make sense as a CoH successor to double down on creativity and alting, I hope that the endgame is somewhat balanced and alting doesn't become overwhelmingly focused on to the exclusion of other CoH-type endgame.
There do seem to be hints and indications that there will be other endgame, so that's good. I just hope the other endgame gets a decent proportion of Dev attention.
EDIT: Question- If you have a charachter who's say, a Bulwark, will you be able to respc into a Bastion or Centurion when they are released as long as you keep the same Primary Powerset?

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly on several points. My main 12 alts or so weren't even DONE until level capped and IO'd; and then I played the HECK out of them. Solo missions, task forces, badging, raids, the works!

Also, I find the "you raid to stay on the gear treadmill, or you go home" attitude in other MMOs profoundly disturbing.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
EDIT: Question- If you have a charachter who's say, a Bulwark, will you be able to respc into a Bastion or Centurion when they are released as long as you keep the same Primary Powerset?
From all I have read here yes you will be able to.

Thanks!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Yes, I know end game. However, that doesn't mean it won't have people showing up, then leaving quickly. That's all I'm worried about. :p
If the main reason that some people leave so early really is "no set-bonuses" then I don't think anything would really satisfy them since to me it is such a nitpicky thing to leave about.
The bigger "danger" here is using the argument "we must have X at launch or people may leave" is such a bad one since it can be said about effectively anything, even things that are not planned to be included at all. Enjoy the game as a whole and worry only about how much you can currently mix-max, not what you can do once all the systems are in place.

Not so much "No set bonuses I'm gone!" but more that the set bonuses filled the role of gear and to think that isn't a popular part of a mmo just seems naive. People like getting geared up. For CoH that was enhancements, which really never felt like much until IOs.

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We will have Augments and

We will have Augments and Refinements, and basic crafting of those which are better than the standard versions.

We just won't have Augment and Refinement crafted sets at launch. Our limited resources permit only so much for us to get done for launch. Had we stated out with funding your stand MMO requires (100x our funding) and the full staff that would provide, there are many concessions we wouldn't have that we do right now in order to launch.

Our goal here is to get the base game out. Not even the full city or all character levels will be open. This isn't an excuse to not get more done with less, just the reality of curcumstances.

Launching a game at all will be equivalanet of climbing Mt. Everest with a set of basic werkend camping gear.


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It was said that at T3 and T7

It was said that at T3 and T7 there were multiple powers choices for powers .
Would it be possible for a charcter to take both choices from theses tiers at higher levels?

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

It was said that at T3 and T7 there were multiple powers choices for powers .
Would it be possible for a charcter to take both choices from theses tiers at higher levels?

No, you only get to choose 1 of the 2 powers. They are alternative picks exlcusive to the other.


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So HYPED after this update!!!

So HYPED after this update!!!
THIS is the kind of information I crave.

For the topic of Aug/Ref Sets (or whatever they will be called) I understand not having them at launch. I would however like to see some Sets that cap at level 30 before, or even with, the release of the full level 50 update. Sets don't have to only be an end-game goal but can be for the mid-game. If released before the level 50 update they can be used to see how the players take advantage of them and how they perform/are abused :) before the level 50 Sets are released.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

No, you only get to choose 1 of the 2 powers. They are alternative picks exlcusive to the other.

Just to be sure, does this mean that apart from the T3/T7 pick, we get all the powers from a Primary and Secondary powerset? Since Travel and Tertiary slots are apparently separate from these.

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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
No, you only get to choose 1 of the 2 powers. They are alternative picks exlcusive to the other.
Just to be sure, does this mean that apart from the T3/T7 pick, we get all the powers from a Primary and Secondary powerset? Since Travel and Tertiary slots are apparently separate from these.

Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary powers all require Power Slots to unlock and pick powers. There are a limit to how many total Power Slots you can have by level 50, and along the way, which Power Tier is unlocked at specific levels.

Travel Powers are on their own separate track of Travel Slots which don't affect Power Slots.

Mastery Powers are on their own track separate track of Mastery Slots which don't affect Power Slots.

You can potentially have all (barring one if the alternate Tier 3 and 7 powers) Primary, Secondary, and one full Tertiary Set by level 50.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We will have Augments and Refinements, and basic crafting of those which are better than the standard versions.
We just won't have Augment and Refinement crafted sets at launch. Our limited resources permit only so much for us to get done for launch. Had we stated out with funding your stand MMO requires (100x our funding) and the full staff that would provide, there are many concessions we wouldn't have that we do right now in order to launch.
Our goal here is to get the base game out. Not even the full city or all character levels will be open. This isn't an excuse to not get more done with less, just the reality of curcumstances.
Launching a game at all will be equivalanet of climbing Mt. Everest with a set of basic werkend camping gear.

My comment is only a matter of wanting to make sure the game succeeds :) We saw what happened in CoH and a lack of gear like options appeared to be an issue.

CoT starting out at level 30 may make it okay, but I would think players would want gear like rewards sooner rather than later to keep playing.

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I honestly only cared about

I honestly only cared about set bonuses because of PVP. The Set Bonuses I was able to get surprisingly make a difference at least enough to survive in that place. I would definitely want set bonuses at some point and yes even at level 30, but like I said before, I am going to be so lost in the game, I wont care much. I doubt ill even get to PVP until ive made a few level 30s and explored every corner of the game.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
We will have Augments and Refinements, and basic crafting of those which are better than the standard versions.
We just won't have Augment and Refinement crafted sets at launch. Our limited resources permit only so much for us to get done for launch. Had we stated out with funding your stand MMO requires (100x our funding) and the full staff that would provide, there are many concessions we wouldn't have that we do right now in order to launch.
Our goal here is to get the base game out. Not even the full city or all character levels will be open. This isn't an excuse to not get more done with less, just the reality of curcumstances.
Launching a game at all will be equivalanet of climbing Mt. Everest with a set of basic werkend camping gear.
My comment is only a matter of wanting to make sure the game succeeds :) We saw what happened in CoH and a lack of gear like options appeared to be an issue.
CoT starting out at level 30 may make it okay, but I would think players would want gear like rewards sooner rather than later to keep playing.

Hence thr crafting for better than standard augments. Your standard augment doesn't carry refinement sockets. You will want to craft or buy those off the auction house and get crafted refinements to put into those socketd as well.

The crafted augs will be better / have more effective levels than your standard augs. This gives players something to strive for ro improve their powers up to level 30.


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Lets analyze so far we start

Lets analyze so far we start with 1 Primary Power and 1 secondary Power;
and its unknown if you start with a tertiary power as far as i know the last word the devs were discussing that part
(but having tertiary power at 1st level would give another difference between city of heroes)
removing masteries and travel powers out of the mix we start with 2 or 3 powers
every even level we gain an augment slot every odd level we gain a new power slot
3 +1, 5 +2, 7 +3, 9 +4, 11 +5, 12 +7, 15 +8, 17 +9, 19 +10, 21 +11, 23 +12, 25 +13,
27 +14, 29 +15 31 +16, 33 +17, 35 +18, 37 +19, 39 +20, 41 +21, 43 +22, 45 +23, 47 +24, 49 +25

IF we do not taper off into more augment slots like CoH, so far bye the DEV posts i read this wasn't mentioned.
so be the current you could have the 18 powers from primary and secondary and 9 or 10 tertiary
and movement powers and masteries by level 50.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Hence the crafting for better than standard augments. Your standard augment doesn't carry refinement sockets. You will want to craft or buy those off the auction house and get crafted refinements to put into those sockets as well.

So, it sounds like we'll be able to craft our own 'set-bonuses' via Refinements!? We can craft Augments that have Refinement sockets, and then craft the Refinements to plug into those special sockets. No more grinding and grinding and Pining on the market, because the one IO we want is ridiculously high-priced.

Be Well!
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I only cared about Set

I only cared about Set Bonuses because they were the only way to get back what Enhancement Dysfunction STOLE FROM ME all the way back in Issue 5, combined with the Global Defense Nerf ... that sent me off to play World of Warcraft for 2 years until Issue 9 and Inventions came along.

The thing you have to remember about Invention Sets though is that they were an incredibly burdensome layer of complexity that all but required a tool like Mids' to be able to manage effectively/at all in a coherent way. Invention Sets were anything BUT "casual" in their demands for knowledge, understanding, or even the structure of wiki pages. Invention Sets basically took what amounted to a game of "checkers" (SOs) and turned it into a game of "orbital mechanics" (IOs) that was just orders of magnitude more difficult to manage.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Godling wrote:
It was said that at T3 and T7 there were multiple powers choices for powers .
Would it be possible for a charcter to take both choices from theses tiers at higher levels?
No, you only get to choose 1 of the 2 powers. They are alternative picks exlcusive to the other.

So, this is just idle curiousity, but is there the potential to add additional powers to these Tiers at a future date that people could respec into if they so desire?

Like, say, at some point in the game's future it becomes apparent that the game is heavily biased towards AoE damage (As CoH was for the vast majority of content) and as a result the single target focused sets are left under performing, but you don't want to drastically modify the existing powers (say, you've got some version of Castle's "Cottage Rule") would it be a feasible solution to add additional AoE focused powers to the choices at Tier 3/7 that people could respec into, or simply ignore if they like their character just fine the way it is?

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I only cared about Set Bonuses because they were the only way to get back what Enhancement Dysfunction STOLE FROM ME all the way back in Issue 5, combined with the Global Defense Nerf ... that sent me off to play World of Warcraft for 2 years until Issue 9 and Inventions came along.
The thing you have to remember about Invention Sets though is that they were an incredibly burdensome layer of complexity that all but required a tool like Mids' to be able to manage effectively/at all in a coherent way. Invention Sets were anything BUT "casual" in their demands for knowledge, understanding, or even the structure of wiki pages. Invention Sets basically took what amounted to a game of "checkers" (SOs) and turned it into a game of "orbital mechanics" (IOs) that was just orders of magnitude more difficult to manage.

I loved them :) They allowed me to perfect my hero's concept outside of just the bio :)

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

Lets analyze so far we start with 1 Primary Power and 1 secondary Power;
and its unknown if you start with a tertiary power as far as i know the last word the devs were discussing that part
(but having tertiary power at 1st level would give another difference between city of heroes)
removing masteries and travel powers out of the mix we start with 2 or 3 powers
every even level we gain an augment slot every odd level we gain a new power slot
3 +1, 5 +2, 7 +3, 9 +4, 11 +5, 12 +7, 15 +8, 17 +9, 19 +10, 21 +11, 23 +12, 25 +13,
27 +14, 29 +15 31 +16, 33 +17, 35 +18, 37 +19, 39 +20, 41 +21, 43 +22, 45 +23, 47 +24, 49 +25
IF we do not taper off into more augment slots like CoH, so far bye the DEV posts i read this wasn't mentioned.
so be the current you could have the 18 powers from primary and secondary and 9 or 10 tertiary
and movement powers and masteries by level 50.

Mastery Powers are picked in place of a level where a Power Slot could have been.

You end up with a total of 23 Power Slots, 3 Mastery Slots, 4 optional Travel Slots, and 2 optional alternate builds by 50. At 50 you earn a character slot but that doesn't affect your current build.

This also doesn't include your stater powers, and each power you earn gets a base Augment slot. You also get a Power Set Augment Socket with each set you choose,

OathboundOne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Godling wrote:
It was said that at T3 and T7 there were multiple powers choices for powers .
Would it be possible for a charcter to take both choices from theses tiers at higher levels?
No, you only get to choose 1 of the 2 powers. They are alternative picks exlcusive to the other.
So, this is just idle curiousity, but is there the potential to add additional powers to these Tiers at a future date that people could respec into if they so desire?
Like, say, at some point in the game's future it becomes apparent that the game is heavily biased towards AoE damage (As CoH was for the vast majority of content) and as a result the single target focused sets are left under performing, but you don't want to drastically modify the existing powers (say, you've got some version of Castle's "Cottage Rule") would it be a feasible solution to add additional AoE focused powers to the choices at Tier 3/7 that people could respec into, or simply ignore if they like their character just fine the way it is?

We've set out to better manage AoE capability than the old game.

Even so, there is the possibility of adding special Augments that change an from single target to area effect.


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Will a Archtype's Primary

Will a Archtype's Primary power set be buffed compared to if another Archtype had it as their secondary or tertiary power set ?

Also how many tertiary sets can we have ?

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Will a Archtype's Primary power set be buffed compared to if another Archtype had it as their secondary or tertiary power set ?
Also how many tertiary sets can we have ?

Secondary Sets are less effective than Primary. 1 to almost 4 full Tertiary Sets depending how many Tertiay powers you choose instead of Primary or Secondary powers when they become available.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will a Archtype's Primary power set be buffed compared to if another Archtype had it as their secondary or tertiary power set ?
Also how many tertiary sets can we have ?
Secondary Sets are less effective than Primary. 1 to almost 4 full Tertiary Sets depending how many Tertiay powers you choose instead of Primary or Secondary powers when they become available.

Do you have to fill up a teritary before you can take another of can you one dip as many as you want ?

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will a Archtype's Primary power set be buffed compared to if another Archtype had it as their secondary or tertiary power set ?
Also how many tertiary sets can we have ?
Secondary Sets are less effective than Primary. 1 to almost 4 full Tertiary Sets depending how many Tertiay powers you choose instead of Primary or Secondary powers when they become available.
Do you have to fill up a teritary before you can take another of can you one dip as many as you want ?

As many as you have Power Slots for. You don't have to take all the powers in the Tertiary. I guess technically you could (checks chart) take 1 Tertiary Power from 19 Tertiary Sets.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will a Archtype's Primary power set be buffed compared to if another Archtype had it as their secondary or tertiary power set ?
Also how many tertiary sets can we have ?
Secondary Sets are less effective than Primary. 1 to almost 4 full Tertiary Sets depending how many Tertiay powers you choose instead of Primary or Secondary powers when they become available.
Do you have to fill up a teritary before you can take another of can you one dip as many as you want ?
As many as you have Power Slots for. You don't have to take all the powers in the Tertiary. I guess technically you could (checks chart) take 1 Tertiary Power from 19 Tertiary Sets.

If you use a main power set tree as a tertiary is it a limited section of that tree or is it the full tree ?

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Tertiary are less effective,

Tertiary are less effective, truncated versions of Secondary Sets.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I only cared about Set Bonuses because they were the only way to get back what Enhancement Dysfunction STOLE FROM ME all the way back in Issue 5, combined with the Global Defense Nerf ... that sent me off to play World of Warcraft for 2 years until Issue 9 and Inventions came along.

I'll grant you that it was very unfortunate that there was such a huge period of time between when ED/GDN hit the game and when they finally compensated for those changes with the IO system. In a very perfect world they would have balanced CoH from the very beginning so as to have not needed ED/GDN in the first place. But even in a slightly less perfect world they would have planned things so that ED/GDN and IOs basically hit at the same time so that there would not have been such a huge time between "the nerfing" and "the correction for the nerfing".

Bottomline ED/GDN was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to save the game from becoming overrun by a few key FotMs and other related cases of Tank-Magery. The critical failure was that the system that was supposed to REBALANCE the game (IOs) took so long to appear that many people (like yourself) did jump ship until they appeared.

I don't fault CoH for imposing ED/GDN on the game - in the long run those changes literally SAVED the game as evidenced by how well it did for six+ years afterwards. The problem was only that there was a huge time between the beginning of ED and the beginning of IOs. Hopefully the Devs of CoT have learned from that and will make things like ED/GDN unnecessary from the beginning.

Redlynne wrote:

The thing you have to remember about Invention Sets though is that they were an incredibly burdensome layer of complexity that all but required a tool like Mids' to be able to manage effectively/at all in a coherent way. Invention Sets were anything BUT "casual" in their demands for knowledge, understanding, or even the structure of wiki pages. Invention Sets basically took what amounted to a game of "checkers" (SOs) and turned it into a game of "orbital mechanics" (IOs) that was just orders of magnitude more difficult to manage.

I will agree that the IO "system" did require some planning to optimize and strictly speaking I suppose you could say it did make the game harder to min/max than it was at launch.

But by the same token the "dirty little secret" of the game was that it was playable even if you didn't spend vast amounts of time in Mids'. Sure a "non-optimized" character might not have been a super-winner in PvP or you might not have been able to run +4/8 solo missions very well but for 98% of the game you would have been perfectly fine and with all due respect that's how most of the "unwashed masses" did in fact end up playing the game.

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I recommend making the powers

I recommend making the powers and augments etc a lot less effective at first than CoX had, then slowly over time allow the inevitable power creep to make us all more effective. Also, maybe ASSUME that some people will actually just do the obvious thing and dump all damage augments in a power, because damage is what we all want more of, ultimately.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

You end up with a total of 23 Power Slots, 3 Mastery Slots, 4 optional Travel Slots, and 2 optional alternate builds by 50. At 50 you earn a character slot but that doesn't affect your current build.
This also doesn't include your stater powers, and each power you earn gets a base Augment slot. You also get a Power Set Augment Socket with each set you choose,

Okay, this definitely falls into a TELL ME MORE category.

Now, for historical reference, there's the old City of Heroes leveling chart, which I'm sure as time passes becomes less easily remembered. So, let's try breaking down what Tannim222 said here in a way that will allow it to make sense relative to our historical experience in City of Heroes.

In City of Heroes, you got to pick 24 Powers (total) by Level 49. This included all Primary/Secondary/Pool picks (Pools included Travel Powers and Epic Pools in the 35-44 range).
In City of Titans, we'll get 23 Power Slots (Primary/Secondary/Tertiary+other?), 3 Mastery Power Slots on top of that, and options for 4 Travel Powers that don't occupy the previous categories ... if I'm reading Tannim222 correctly. This would then make for a total of up to 30 Powers by Level 50.

Furthermore ...

In City of Heroes, each Power came with a "free" Enhancement Slot when a Power was picked. Getting any sort of "global" effect bonus out of any of those Enhancement Slots required resorting to Invention Sets being placed into those Enhancement Slots. So the Enhancement Slots themselves didn't offer any global bonuses, but what you put into them COULD have global bonuses.

In City of Titans, by contrast ... each Power Set you take grants an automatic EXTRA Augment Socket that modifies all of the Powers IN THAT POWERSET. So rather than being "forced" to use certain pre-made Invention Sets in order to access Set Bonuses that then apply to all of the Powers in your build, mandating specific "configurations" of Enhancement Slots filled with singularly specific Invention Sets that grant the global bonuses you're looking for ... instead ... we're getting a much more a la carte system of "choose your own set bonus" for each powerset.

To me, this sounds like an incredibly powerful and elegant solution to the problem of "set bonuses" without needing to create a system as complex (and rigidly confining) as the Invention Set Bonus system of City of Heroes. It allows for Powerset Globals which can then be "dialed in" through investment to deliver the kind of boost to an entire Powerset in a way that meets the unique needs of each character. Instead of it being a case of "use what WE made for you to get what you want" ... it's more a matter of "pick what YOU need to get what you want" which is so much more expansive and powerful of a concept and implementation.

It also means that Pool Powers like Hasten are simply unnecessary in City of Titans. If you want "all" of your Powers to simply recharge faster, then put a Recharge Reduction into the Powerset Augment Sockets for each of your Powersets. Now, every Power you have will recharge faster than it would have otherwise.

This sort of "pick your own global bonuses" idea is game mechanically as powerful a concept and mechanic as aesthetic decoupling is for the "costume appearance" of how Powers "look" when animated. It also allows for an extremely simplified collection of Augments and Refinements to be capable of generating a tremendous myriad of possibilities akin to what Invention Sets did for builds in City of Heroes, but without the burden of complexity that Invention Sets layered onto the game. I say that because Invention Sets fundamentally changed the more "casual" way of specifying a character build had been done prior to Issue 9 of City of Heroes, where you could do most of your work on the back of an index card, rather than NEEDING to resort to Mids' in order to keep track of all of the possibilities for you in order to make good/informed decisions about which Sets to use (and how they all added up).

This notion of having Augment Sockets that affect entire Powersets also creates yet another dimension of variation and personalization, such that even with the exact same Powers and Slots investment picks, it is perfectly possible to have two builds play quite differently from each other, simply by choosing different Powerset Augments to slot in.

As for WHEN those optional Travel picks would become available would be an interesting question. City of Heroes (originally) gated Travel Powers behind needing to pick TWO Powers from a Pool by as early as Level 14. In many cases, this involved a Pool Power pick at Levels 6 and 14 in order to reach those Travel Powers. We already know that in City of Titans, we're going to get our first Travel Power pick for free at Level 1. I have to wonder if the second Travel Power pick might be made available at Level 14, in part for nostalgia reasons, but also because by then having a "dual mode" of being able to get around the city would in fact be A Good Idea™. After that, it's just a question of when the later Travel Power picks become available.

Speaking just for myself, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to "break with tradition" (ever so slightly) and just add another Travel Power option every 16 Levels.

  • 1 --> 16 --> 32 --> 48 = 4 Travel Power picks by Level 50

Note that such an arrangement would mean that when the Level Cap is 30 at game launch, characters will only have up to 2 Travel Powers to choose from, and that there would be a distinct difference in available "modes" of travel between Levels 1-15 (newbie time) and Levels 16-30 (maturing time). When the Level Cap gets raised from 30 to 40, the choice for a third Travel Power becomes available at Level 32, marking yet another "boundary layer" transition in how characters will be moving around the city. Then when the Level Cap gets raised again from 40 to 50, the last Travel Power becomes available when characters are nearing the new Level Cap. And as an added bonus ... just in case there is EVER an increase in Level Cap from 50 to 60 (for whatever reason), there would be no expectation of adding a fifth Travel Power to characters, since the next "logical" Level at which such an addition would be made would be at ... Level 64.


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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I recommend making the powers and augments etc a lot less effective at first than CoX had, then slowly over time allow the inevitable power creep to make us all more effective. Also, maybe ASSUME that some people will actually just do the obvious thing and dump all damage augments in a power, because damage is what we all want more of, ultimately.

Yes I'd rather start off relatively wimpy because as we all know a game like this will only ADD more power to characters as time goes on.

Case in point: I know everyone here was upset CoH got shutdown and we never got to see the final implementation of all the powers that we were going to get with the Incarnate system. But to be perfectly honest I had fully min-maxed characters at the end of CoH who were already practically god-like. If those same characters had gotten access to the last 3 or 4 ADDITIONAL powers that the Incarnate system was hinting at I would've had characters that would've been stupidly-overpowered. Had CoH lasted another couple of years there probably would have been some major nerfings in our future.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Let's not assume too much

Let's not assume too much about Power Set Augments. I read somewhere that some of them simply change your powers' damage type from whatever is "stock" to something else. Like if you want your Energy blasts to do some other type of damage, for conceptual purposes, etc. Compared to that, I think "global recharge rate increase" sounds WAYYYYYY better. As such, I doubt the Power Set Augment Slot is likely to have such things. I mean, if the choice is "one Set Augment changes your powers from chocolate to vanilla, the other makes you 10% more combat efficient at all times" people clearly choose the latter every time, right?

I also want to say that I liked the general idea of having some give and take built into the gear system and the global bonuses that CoX had with IOs. I liked that you had to work with what existed. That is, you couldn't just be like "I want the best power set for each individual power in and of itself AND the most useful global buffs as well" and actually get it that way. You had to mix and match from among the options that actually existed, which added in a layer of complexity that I personally liked and also made "give me the best of everything" not really an option. You could max out a given power but get terrible set bonuses from it, or you could try to get a global build that gave the best set bonuses, but a that cost of different powers being well below optimized in and of themselves, or you could try to make a build that was better, but still not perfect, etc. I loved that about the CoX system.

Again, I go back to the 24-second shot clock idea in basketball. Nobody likes having that penalty called on them when it get's called, but having the rule insures a much better game overall as compared to not having it. Limits create structure which is the foundation of a good game, and they also make possible the creature of "rule breaker" items that are fun and act as powerups.

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Another thing I'd warn

Another thing I'd warn against is the assumption that the rarity of an item will be some kind of limit on player power level. Magic made this mistake in the early years to disastrous results. The rarest cards were assumed by the creators to be at most a one-of in any deck, because nobody would EVER buy so many Magic cards as to have THREE Black Lotuses, etc. People made STUPID decks in those days that just never lost.

Rarity might make something expensive, but that won't stop people from backing up the truck and getting a ton of them, whatever they are. Always assume that there will be someone somewhere who "backs up the truck" and get's a metric ton of the best item, whatever it is, or the best combo, etc. The veteran players will be able to do that by the end of year one of the game, quite possibly.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Let's not assume too much about Power Set Augments. I

No, Red's pretty much got the general idea.

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Power Set Augments Sockets

Power Set Augments Sockets for Primary and Secondary Sets take Augments which affect only the powers in that set.

The example we gave in our update was a partial damage type change. But it can be anything that works for the set. A Protection Set may have an Aug for improving all resistance of the active powers in a set (just an example, may not be a literal thing).

Tertiary Sets get Global Set Sockets - these Augs apply a global buff to the character.

I'll correct myself from earlier (it was late), the total number of possible Tertiary Powers is 19, but there is a limit to the total number of Tertiary Sets that can be accessed which is 5 - this may change to 4 given testing. Tertiary Sets carry Global Augment Sockets instead of Power Set Augment Sockets. The Augs socketed into these global sockets apply the bonus to the entire character.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Power Set Augments Sockets for Primary and Secondary Sets take Augments which affect only the powers in that set.
The example we gave in our update was a partial damage type change. But it can be anything that works for the set. A Protection Set may have an Aug for improving all resistance of the active powers in a set (just an example, may not be a literal thing).
Tertiary Sets get Global Set Sockets - these Augs apply a global buff to the character.
I'll correct myself from earlier (it was late), the total number of possible Tertiary Powers is 19, but there is a limit to the total number of Tertiary Sets that can be accessed which is 5 - this may change to 4 given testing. Tertiary Sets carry Global Augment Sockets instead of Power Set Augment Sockets. The Augs socketed into these global sockets apply the bonus to the entire character.

Thanks for the heads up.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

To me, this sounds like an incredibly powerful and elegant solution to the problem of "set bonuses" without needing to create a system as complex (and rigidly confining) as the Invention Set Bonus system of City of Heroes.

I'll see it when I believe it, or some-such...

For me it'll depend on how many different choices there'll be for the Augment Sockets. If there's going to be dozens of options then maybe there'll be enough to make it worth experimenting with. But if we only end up with say 6-8 choices for augments then like everything else it'll be prone to min/maxing - people will figure out the "best" augment for the given powerset and people will be discouraged from using anything else in that slot.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Radiac wrote:
Let's not assume too much about Power Set Augments. I
No, Red's pretty much got the general idea.

Given this, I now would assume that changing part of the damage type of a given power set would then be an upgrade in net damage output (vis a vis the new damage type be less resisted, etc than the old one, presumably).

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
To me, this sounds like an incredibly powerful and elegant solution to the problem of "set bonuses" without needing to create a system as complex (and rigidly confining) as the Invention Set Bonus system of City of Heroes.
I'll see it when I believe it, or some-such...
For me it'll depend on how many different choices there'll be for the Augment Sockets. If there's going to be dozens of options then maybe there'll be enough to make it worth experimenting with. But if we only end up with say 6-8 choices for augments then like everything else it'll be prone to min/maxing - people will figure out the "best" augment for the given powerset and people will be discouraged from using anything else in that slot.

The min/maxing will happen no matter what. Economists gunna economize. I think the best you can hope for is different classes/builds wanting different things in order to optimize different types of toons differently.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The min/maxing will happen no matter what. Economists gunna economize. I think the best you can hope for is different classes/builds wanting different things in order to optimize different types of toons differently.

Oh I'd expect that at the very least once min/maxing becomes a factor in augment socket selection that you'd have different "best" augments for different powersets. I'd doubt the system would be so flat that you could get away with plugging in the same single augment type for -every- single powerset.

But still if the system doesn't offer enough choices it will devolve (very quickly) into a "always use augment X for powerset Y" drill that everyone will follow. On the other hand if there's a large enough pool of augments to pick from that are all equivalently useful then there'll be a chance that people will be willing to experiment with different ones without the perception that they're "gimping" their builds.

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This raises, once again, the

This raises, once again, the age old problem of "equal power level" generally means "basically no different". In order for different Augments to actually be different, it's probably going to be true that some are better than others. I think the best system is one that has more options than needed, but different best options for different types of characters. That's tricky to do well.

I you drew up a bar graph of Set Augments with "effective powerfulness" on the horizontal axis and "number of different Set Augments available" on the vertical, I would hope that it is a graph that starts out low (few relatively low power Set Aguments) and rises to a plateau at the high end (a lot of relatively powerful Set Augment options on the high end, all of which are very close to achother in powerfulness). This is preferable to a bell curve in this case because JUST ONE "extra powerful" outlier on the high-side becomes a "right answer" while umpteen "meh" Augments on the low side ultimately get ignored and are not a problem.

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