Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

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TitansCity
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I don't understand the

I don't understand the question about those names when i see that the power system set is similar to CoX. If a issue with IP rights shuld append, i thik it could on the power system not on names used to explain something...

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Guys, it has nothing to do

Guys, it has nothing to do with cooy right issues or ip issues. Let it go. Like I said, it is an4 year old argument.

I’s be happy to discuss any fiurthernquestions regsrdinf powers themselves.


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Medial gives you guys quite a

Medial gives you guys quite a free range to work with after all you don't have to state if its just above or below the median because its basicly saying the power does more than the smallest factor but less than the biggest factor.

Medial is a range guys, its better than just having little, middle and large because you can't balance if you only have 10%, 50% and 100%.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I’s be happy to discuss any fiurthernquestions regsrdinf powers themselves.

So... i don't really understand this one (Gravity), specialy the "continually" : "This ranged control continually knocks down an enemy over a very brief period of time. A critical hit will cause the enemy to be continually knocked upward over time. "
It knocks down, then with a critical it continue to knock ok, but if it "down", it must be "upward" to go "down" right ? I'm sorry, it's just that it sometimes difficult to understand the shade of difference.

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

So... i don't really understand this one (Gravity), especially the "continually"...

I interpret that to mean that the power emits pulses of 'knock' effect for as long as it lasts. Ordinarily, this 'knock' causes the target to fall down, but when a critical hit occurs, the target is flung into the air, leading to a more serious fall.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
So... i don't really understand this one (Gravity), especially the "continually"...
I interpret that to mean that the power emits pulses of 'knock' effect for as long as it lasts. Ordinarily, this 'knock' causes the target to fall down, but when a critical hit occurs, the target is flung into the air, leading to a more serious fall.

So the target will fall down on the floor and on a critical hit, it will be thrown up and knock down on the floor in a bigger way ? is that right ?

(Just to finish on the previous subject ^^ : in French, medial is like average or median. We have no translation for that... It's either average, madian or even middle. Like swift, quick or fast... all those terms are "rapide" or "court" (as short) in french ^^ otherwise we must put "very" or other words to emphasis or accurate the meaning. Translated this kind of precision is not really easy and need more words than in US :))

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
So... i don't really understand this one (Gravity), especially the "continually"...
I interpret that to mean that the power emits pulses of 'knock' effect for as long as it lasts. Ordinarily, this 'knock' causes the target to fall down, but when a critical hit occurs, the target is flung into the air, leading to a more serious fall.
Be Well!
Fireheart

This is correct.


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When will the full list of

When will the full list of powers per set be released?
When will the full details of the powers (numbers) be released?

I understand that until launch all powers/numbers/etc will be "Subject To Change". Heck even after launch I'm sure some powers may need to be adjusted either +/- based on user feedback/stats.

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Will we say automatically

Will we say automatically activating passives ? such as a CC breaking passive or toggle type ability which then activates and drops to cooldown when you say get affected by a CC effect etc.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

When will the full list of powers per set be released?
When will the full details of the powers (numbers) be released?
I understand that until launch all powers/numbers/etc will be "Subject To Change". Heck even after launch I'm sure some powers may need to be adjusted either +/- based on user feedback/stats.

Probably not until players will be testing the game and able to discuss everything openly without an nda.

Even then, the full list / numbers won’t be out until we release the post launch major update unlocking the levels above 30 and the second half the city.

Deathwatch101 wrote:

Will we say automatically activating passives ? such as a CC breaking passive or toggle type ability which then activates and drops to cooldown when you say get affected by a CC effect etc.

The term we use for passives is permanent and by definition, have no cool down.

Now if you are asking if you can have an abikity that activates when you are fully mezzed (remember ccs are non-binary and always have an effect when applied), yes we can do that. Howver instead of being automatic, they will be opted as selectable by he player. Hence, not permanent. Reserves are something you can use when controllled (the type to break out of cc anyway).


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Sorry to interrupt Tannim but

Sorry to interrupt Tannim but what is up with the red crowbar avatar lol

always wondered...

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Sorry to interrupt Tannim but what is up with the red crowbar avatar lol
always wondered...

His magic crawbar :) look at his signature

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Sorry to interrupt Tannim but what is up with the red crowbar avatar lol
always wondered...
His magic crawbar :) look at his signature

I see...

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Sorry to interrupt Tannim but what is up with the red crowbar avatar lol
always wondered...
His magic crawbar :) look at his signature

Tannim is actually a character created by author (and beloved fan / player of CoH) Mercedes Lackey from the Serrated Edge series.

He is a human with a red painted crow bar because in that world, iron messes up magic in a bad way.


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Also, Tannim of the Red

Also, Tannim of the Red Crowbar is a Mustang-racing, darkness-fighting, magical badass, in a popular novel series.

{edit; Ah! Scooped by the man, himself.}

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I can understand the need to try to distance the language as far away from other games as possible. That said, calling the damage categories things like "light, medium, and heavy" doesn't seem like something that could be copyrighted by anyone. I'm no law expert though.

I'm not a law expert either, but some of my hobbies have caused me to learn a great deal about copyright. So, without meaning to upset Tannim222, a quick answer is that rule sets cannot be copyrighted. I'm certain that MWM must know this as part of reasonable due diligence.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Even then, the full list / numbers won’t be out until we release the post launch major update unlocking the levels above 30 and the second half the city.

In saying this, do you mean the tier 9 powers of the sets will not be visible at launch, until the levels at which they unlock are available? We've already seen a tier 9 power so perhaps this isn't what you meant, but I'm unsure. I would definitely want to get a description of those powers when deciding on characters after launch, even if no specific numbers are available.

On the subject of tier 9s, I'm also curious if we're going to see set-defining powers on the scale of, for example, Fulcrum Shift, which represented an enormous shift in the potential damage output of a team in many situations.

I'm noticing a lot of overlap between Psychic Blast and Psychic Control. The former gives up some damage in favour of control, while the latter gives up some area effects in favour of damage on controlled targets. Does this represent a broader intent to have sets of different basic playstyles that share a similar foundation?

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Even then, the full list / numbers won’t be out until we release the post launch major update unlocking the levels above 30 and the second half the city.
In saying this, do you mean the tier 9 powers of the sets will not be visible at launch, until the levels at which they unlock are available? We've already seen a tier 9 power so perhaps this isn't what you meant, but I'm unsure. I would definitely want to get a description of those powers when deciding on characters after launch, even if no specific numbers are available.

I meant the full details such as numbers wouldn’t be available until the powers are officially released. Even the available information would be subject to change based on testing. An entire power could be changed (hope is this won’t be necessary but this happened in thenold game with a later-level power being completely changed due to testing prior to unlock).

Pyromantic wrote:

On the subject of tier 9s, I'm also curious if we're going to see set-defining powers on the scale of, for example, Fulcrum Shift, which represented an enormous shift in the potential damage output of a team in many situations.

You have already seen an early example of this in a sense. Look at Strategy for an example of an early stage damage buff. I wonder what might come later, or in future sets...

Pyromantic wrote:

I'm noticing a lot of overlap between Psychic Blast and Psychic Control. The former gives up some damage in favour of control, while the latter gives up some area effects in favour of damage on controlled targets. Does this represent a broader intent to have sets of different basic playstyles that share a similar foundation?

Yes it does. Quite a few sets across many basic play styles carry a similar mechanical theme. This provides auotmatic sysnergy when mixing things up with Tertiary sets, or when we design later sets for Manipulation and Assault. Not every set in every Focused Playstyle is themtically paired. I try to give at least 1 power set in each Focused Playstyle something that is unique mechanically yet can still, with some adjustments, let us design mixed sets so that while the mixed sets don’t have the dame mechanical-theme, the mechanics will at least work together or not interfere with one another.


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Tannim,

Tannim,

Thank you for taking the time and to reply to all of my piddling interests, and I apologize profusely for some of the redundancies: they were primarily so that I would not forget to ask things I was particularly interested about.

I haven't figured out how to quote a post properly, but regarding "Killing it with Fire": is that in the "Hammock District"?

Regarding "Protection Drone": as it can be destroyed, is it merely a bag of hit points? Can it be targeted separately from the caster? Does it benefit from the Caster's protections? Can it be buffed (outside of caster buffs during casting)?

Regarding "Gravity Wells": are most powers in the set meant to benefit from this mechanic? Can you give us a few more examples?

I am wondering what YOUR opinion might be on the most SURVIVABLE Protection set, and the most N0ob friendly Protection set as they both stand right now (understanding that both may change). I am trying to get a couple of old-fart friends of mine to kick in on the 2nd-Chance fundraiser, and I know that these are questions they will ask of me...

Thank you again!

Sincerely,

Mons

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Mons, you are after my own heart. I'm gonna need a MIDS.

Empyrean, I will be dying for it (perhaps quite figuratively). Does anyone know where Suckerpunch has gotten to? Titan Network, perhaps?

Sincerely,

Mons

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

Regarding "Protection Drone": as it can be destroyed, is it merely a bag of hit points? Can it be targeted separately from the caster? Does it benefit from the Caster's protections? Can it be buffed (outside of caster buffs during casting)?

My take on it is that it's their equivalent to Force Field Generator from the Traps set in CoH.

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

Regarding "Gravity Wells":

Talking about that... what's a "well" ? i think it's like an area but i can't really mind what it is about in this description... Is a "point of gravity" could be right (in the meaning) ?

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

Tannim,
Thank you for taking the time and to reply to all of my piddling interests, and I apologize profusely for some of the redundancies: they were primarily so that I would not forget to ask things I was particularly interested about.

Your welcome and no need to apologize.

Mons wrote:

I haven't figured out how to quote a post properly, but regarding "Killing it with Fire": is that in the "Hammock District"?

That depends, what do you have against The Hammock Complex down on Third?

Mons wrote:

Regarding "Protection Drone": as it can be destroyed, is it merely a bag of hit points? Can it be targeted separately from the caster? Does it benefit from the Caster's protections? Can it be buffed (outside of caster buffs during casting)?

It follows you, has hit points and casts the buff. It can be targeted separately from the caster. It does not directly benefit from any protection powers on the caster. It can be buffed and healed.

Mons wrote:

Regarding "Gravity Wells": are most powers in the set meant to benefit from this mechanic? Can you give us a few more examples?

Most powers can benefit from the mechanic but not all. No further examples, sorry. Nice try though.

Mons wrote:

I am wondering what YOUR opinion might be on the most SURVIVABLE Protection set, and the most N0ob friendly Protection set as they both stand right now (understanding that both may change).

I'm a little leery on giving my personal opinion on this since I have A LOT of inside info and don't want to steer people into pigeon-holing because of what is "the best". Every set we design uses a system to provide parity. Balance is not "even", this is something most people have a hard time grasping. In game design terms, balance is actually a range of performance within a set of bounds or, a range of performance within a set of bounds within a set of circumstances.
For me to say which has the most sustainability would also require me to include several caveats in order to cover the circumstances and performance bounds.

I can say that Invulnerability is rather easy to use if you like the feeling of taking on damage. Solid Form requires more positional forethought and time to ramp up to show its real capability. Super Agility is easy to use if you like to use a set that avoids taking damage. Grit is very rounded and easy to use, but will have more swings in health loss and gain with its healing and regeneration powers. Atrophic Aura is on the lower end of its sustainability and definitely requires more active play in use of its offensive capabilities to survive.

Mons wrote:

I am trying to get a couple of old-fart friends of mine to kick in on the 2nd-Chance fundraiser, and I know that these are questions they will ask of me...

Cool! Have them come check out the forums, read some of our past updates, check out our powers info, maybe they can ask questions themselves.

TitansCity wrote:

Mons wrote:
Regarding "Gravity Wells":
Talking about that... what's a "well" ? i think it's like an area but i can't really mind what it is about in this description... Is a "point of gravity" could be right (in the meaning) ?

The long way to learn about it: Gravity Well. The short version: A gravity well is the pull of gravity that a large body in space exerts. For the game, an area around a target that pulls other nearby targets in toward it. This is an effect we call Attraction, or Attract.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Regarding "Gravity Wells":
Talking about that... what's a "well" ? i think it's like an area but i can't really mind what it is about in this description... Is a "point of gravity" could be right (in the meaning) ?
The long way to learn about it: Gravity Well. The short version: A gravity well is the pull of gravity that a large body in space exerts. For the game, an area around a target that pulls other nearby targets in toward it. This is an effect we call Attraction, or Attract.

Thanks tannim22 for this explanation :) i never thought ab out using wikipedia in englisj but it could be an interresting additionnal tool for my understandign xD

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If you plot potential energy

If you plot potential energy as a function of radial distance, with the center of the gravitational object being the center of your coordinate system, the potential energy looks like a parabola with it's minimum at the center (r=0). Furthermore, the potential function tends to zero as you go out to larger and larger values of r, so the graph looks like a hole in an otherwise flat landscape as viewed from the side. If you imagine a bell curve flipped updside-down that would describe it. This sort of graph has been called the "potential well" of the planet for years by physicists because the parabola looks like a hole of some kind into which a particle might fall and not be able to re-emerge from, like a person falling into a real well. If you type "gravitational potential well" into a search engine, you'll find many examples that look a lot like what I'd describing in words here.

Edit: I found some art:

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According to the power

According to the power descriptions, there are only three types of damage: physical, energy, and exotic. Is there any ability to add a new damage type later?

Edit: Can anything ever do "untyped damage" for any reason?

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Do we have any words of the

Do we have any words of the background or ideas for the Assault Secondary Power Set when it becomes available.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

According to the power descriptions, there are only three types of damage: physical, energy, and exotic. Is there any ability to add a new damage type later?
Edit: Can anything ever do "untyped damage" for any reason?

You lisses the health damages from the vampiric style of the range power set :)
(Thanks for your explanations ^^)

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

According to the power descriptions, there are only three types of damage: physical, energy, and exotic. Is there any ability to add a new damage type later?
Edit: Can anything ever do "untyped damage" for any reason?

If you are asking “can we add new damage types later?”, yes. It would however require that we revisit every set and rework them accordinly. The plan is to avoid that if at all possible.

Deathwatch101 wrote:

Do we have any words of the background or ideas for the Assault Secondary Power Set when it becomes available.

I have them preplanned as in their Focused Play Style templlates have been created, and I know which sets to pair up by mechanical themes. But it will be a while before we get to releasing them. In other words, don’t expect them anytime near or post launch.


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Will we expect to see new

Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?

Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?
Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.

That's an interesting distinction! Ranger and Guardian are classic 'long range' ATs, while 'Assault' is a mixed-range, or medium range Power Set. As a Secondary, it makes the Ranger 'more dangerous' as the range to target shortens, while it brings the Guardian closer to the 'front lines', which, with some Guardian Primaries is also good.

If Assault were a Primary... It would blur the lines between Ranger and Enforcer, which Might require a new AT. The only thing I can think of, which might be similar, is the old Spines Power Set for CoH Scrappers.

In fact, Secondary Powersets might tend to define this hypothetical AT. For instance, if 'Protection' were the Secondary, then it might be nearly indistinguishable from an Enforcer. If 'Support' were the Secondary, then it might resemble an old-game Corruptor, or a particularly aggressive Guardian, which might work.

Having 'Ranged' or 'Melee' as a Secondary might work, but it seems Scary, to me, to consider how delicate such a character might be. Having 'Control' as a Secondary... might give such an AT a hint of mitigation, but with non-binary Controls it might not be enough to keep them from being smooshed. Having Pets... would definitely depend on how Pets worked. If all Pets were aggressive and none of them were a worthy Tank... 'smoosh'. However, if Pets provided Utility and Defense, as well as DPS, that might be a viable option.

I have to conclude that 'Assault' is better as a Secondary, except in the case of an Enforcer with a eccentric Primary.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?
Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.

Fireheart has it right. Assault is a Secondary only set.

As for nee Archetypes, I think our schedule is quite filled for the foreseeable fututre with having to add Commanders at some point and having to get all the Specifications released.

That being said, if there were to be a new Archetype I would personally have my eye on Assault for the Primary, but not necessarily in he same...manner as it is a Secondary.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?
Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.
Fireheart has it right. Assault is a Secondary only set.
As for nee Archetypes, I think our schedule is quite filled for the foreseeable fututre with having to add Commanders at some point and having to get all the Specifications released.
That being said, if there were to be a new Archetype I would personally have my eye on Assault for the Primary, but not necessarily in he same...manner as it is a Secondary.

Is there a rough timeline planned (internally or otherwise) for when the commanders other specifications such as gunner and bastion are going to be released?

Name: Safehouse
Magical Ranger - Gunner
Primary: Lethality (Energy)
Secondary: Invulnerability
Tertiary: Super Strength
Travel Power: Parkour
Status: Traveling. Following rumors of a huge city in Massachusetts that is teeming with supers.

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Safehouse wrote:
Safehouse wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?
Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.
Fireheart has it right. Assault is a Secondary only set.
As for nee Archetypes, I think our schedule is quite filled for the foreseeable fututre with having to add Commanders at some point and having to get all the Specifications released.
That being said, if there were to be a new Archetype I would personally have my eye on Assault for the Primary, but not necessarily in he same...manner as it is a Secondary.
Is there a rough timeline planned (internally or otherwise) for when the commanders other specifications such as gunner and bastion are going to be released?

Commanders yes. The other specifications I don’t have details on. We have a lot to do to get to launch, through launch, and our first major update for expanding the level cap and the second half of the city.

Through which we will have our hands quite full between business ops and development. Combat analytics alone will be a huge resource hog.

Two difficult things when it comes to Commanders is that the AI has to be ready and one Summons Set is like designing 2 sets for any oher Basic Playstyle. We have to get both of those right before they’re ready for release. And sentiment is that we get Commanders ready before other Specifications. But even that is subject to change.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And sentiment is that we get Commanders ready before other Specifications. But even that is subject to change.

This is a tough one.

I really like the idea of Commanders being a high priority as Masterminds were one of my favourites. Pet builds of this nature are practically unheard of in games and they offer a very distinctive experience.

I think that Manipulation is also a high priority for me however--perhaps higher--for a few reasons. The first is a nod to Blasters, which IIRC were the most popular AT in CoH (at least as a percentage of characters made), had been around since the beginning, and yet had never really been done right. The I24 Blaster revision never had the opportunity to materialize; I for one would love to see what MWM has in store for CoT's closest analog. Another is that other than Operator, all the Archetypes are slated to have a Manipulation spec. Finally, Tertiaries heavy on control are supposed to be based on Manipulation sets, so there will be probably be a dearth of control options to round out builds until they are released. Altogether this represents a lot of creative space for players to work in.

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I'm waiting for Bastion--but

I'm waiting for Bastion--but I'll be waiting as a Bulwark :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Range/ Assault seems as

Range/ Assault seems as though it would be particularly suitable for an old-school Blapper set-up. Is this intentional?

My main in the old game was a Stone/SS tank (Mons, of course), and he was awesome except for the obligatory Devouring Earth costume. He is the primary reason I have so many questions about protection, as I'm wondering if I'll be able to get by with a full group with SS, or should plan to take Fighting Prowess. My 2nd, a crab spider, was built as an AoE off tank (Man did this guy do a ton of damage in Incarnate Trials), and my 3rd was a Bots/Traps MM. I intend to recreate Mons, of course, and recognize the inherent difficulties in re-rolling the crab, but I would like the MM to work and work well. Take all the time you need. Especially if it might mean a great AI and more customization options for pets, as I think this particular customization will go a long way towards creating more everyday players because of the greater buy-in during character creation.

It was funny, but in counting up my lvl 50s on paper the other day, I realised that I was only excited about recreating roughly half of them. Neither of the two Regen scrappers made the cut, and I don't think this was due to the fact that you aren't intending Regen for launch. The set was very high maintenance, and 'clicky', and frankly fairly hum-drum. Anything you are able to tell us about plans for the set?

Other sets that seemed to be a lot of "work" included Fiery Aura, Kinetic defense, Dark defense, perhaps Claws, and I'm certain my brethren here can think of a few others. Vampiric Emanation and Power Control seem to be set up in the same vein. Are they meant to be very 'active' sets? Both positionally, and Power-wise?

Sincerely,

Mons

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Another question, and I am

Another question, and I am sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but if the beginning level cap is 30, does that mean that players in "Issue 1" will receive an additional character slot for each character they level to 30? I ask because I fully intend to have 3+ 30s prior to Issue 2 (assuming that the progression grind is not completely ridiculous).

Sincerely,

Mons

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

Another question, and I am sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but if the beginning level cap is 30, does that mean that players in "Issue 1" will receive an additional character slot for each character they level to 30? I ask because I fully intend to have 3+ 30s prior to Issue 2 (assuming that the progression grind is not completely ridiculous).
Sincerely,
Mons

New character slots are awarded at 50.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Safehouse wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
Will we expect to see new archtypes for them ? or will they just be secondaries or is that something that hasn't been looked at as of yet ?
Its a hard choice atm between Ranger and Guardian.
Fireheart has it right. Assault is a Secondary only set.
As for nee Archetypes, I think our schedule is quite filled for the foreseeable fututre with having to add Commanders at some point and having to get all the Specifications released.
That being said, if there were to be a new Archetype I would personally have my eye on Assault for the Primary, but not necessarily in he same...manner as it is a Secondary.
Is there a rough timeline planned (internally or otherwise) for when the commanders other specifications such as gunner and bastion are going to be released?
Commanders yes. The other specifications I don’t have details on. We have a lot to do to get to launch, through launch, and our first major update for expanding the level cap and the second half of the city.
Through which we will have our hands quite full between business ops and development. Combat analytics alone will be a huge resource hog.
Two difficult things when it comes to Commanders is that the AI has to be ready and one Summons Set is like designing 2 sets for any oher Basic Playstyle. We have to get both of those right before they’re ready for release. And sentiment is that we get Commanders ready before other Specifications. But even that is subject to change.

Thanks for the clarification, this totally makes sense to me. My understanding of pre launch and post launch is that the two are practically different universes. I can be patient :)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I'm waiting for Bastion--but I'll be waiting as a Bulwark :).

That's me with gunner. I'll be starting as a partisan at launch and that is fine with me. Although I anticipate a quick switch to gunner upon its release :)

Name: Safehouse
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Primary: Lethality (Energy)
Secondary: Invulnerability
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in a not so old news Dr Tyche

in a not so old news Dr Tyche said :

Quote:

What: Secondary Power Sets

Your Secondary Set is your Specialization. Each Secondary Set has its own style of play. Enforcers can become protective Bodyguards, or solo-focused Gladiators, or go for broke with an attack-focused Striker. We’re only launching with one Secondary for each Primary, but each Secondary Set has its own constellation of Power Sets. That Bodyguard could chose from multiple armors. Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build.

But, what does he mean in saying "You get the other sets in time, and be able to swap between them" ? Could we sitch between focused style during the leveling ??

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

in a not so old news Dr Tyche said :
Quote:
What: Secondary Power Sets
Your Secondary Set is your Specialization. Each Secondary Set has its own style of play. Enforcers can become protective Bodyguards, or solo-focused Gladiators, or go for broke with an attack-focused Striker. We’re only launching with one Secondary for each Primary, but each Secondary Set has its own constellation of Power Sets. That Bodyguard could chose from multiple armors. Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build.
But, what does he mean in saying "You get the other sets in time, and be able to swap between them" ? Could we sitch between focused style during the leveling ??

At certain levels you access a new character “build” which lets you choose a different Specification within your Archetype. You will be able to switch out to these different builds with a timed limitation.

Each Specification can have different Secondary Basic Playstyles. Eachnif those have Focused Playstyles for how we design the sets.

You may have an Enforcer with Melee / Protection with another build that is Melee / Support as an example.


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

But, what does he mean in saying "You get the other sets in time, and be able to swap between them" ? Could we sitch between focused style during the leveling ??

"when you change your Build" = "when you respec"

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

in a not so old news Dr Tyche said :
Quote:
What: Secondary Power Sets
Your Secondary Set is your Specialization. Each Secondary Set has its own style of play. Enforcers can become protective Bodyguards, or solo-focused Gladiators, or go for broke with an attack-focused Striker. We’re only launching with one Secondary for each Primary, but each Secondary Set has its own constellation of Power Sets. That Bodyguard could chose from multiple armors. Don’t like the Secondary you start with? You’ll get the other Sets in time, and be able to swap between them when you change your Build.
But, what does he mean in saying "You get the other sets in time, and be able to swap between them" ? Could we sitch between focused style during the leveling ??

I think what this means is that:

You can respec your character, and during that respec you can change your secondary/tertiary powersets (Eg. Go from your old Vampiric Blast/Vampiric Emanation build to a new Vampiric Blast/Preservation build) or even change your seconday powerset type*, which is your "Specialization" (for example you have a Vampiric Blast/Preservation Partisan which is great for groups but You decide you'd rather have a character who's better at soling, so your respec to a Vampiric Blast/Grit Gunner).
You'll be able to unlock multiple Builds that you can switch between (like, making different solo and group builds if you wanted), and if you wanted you could save your Vampiric Blast/Grit as "Build 1" for soloing, and also save Vampiric Blast/Preservation as "Build 2" to switch to when you felt like grouping.

*You obviously can't do the second part at launch, cause you only have one option for Specialization until they're able to add the others in.

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Thanks all :)

Thanks all :)
So i understand that when we respec, we could change the build (that's, obviously, like in CoX and other MMORPG) and, in game, in a further update#x we'll be able to switch between different builds(thanks to a new caracter build available at certains levels) we made during the respecs ? So respecs are linked with builds ?
i know i look like someone who has no brain xD

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Another question on the

Another question on the description on "Masse preservation". I wonder if a word is missing with the part on melee & ranged defense : "Once toggled on you cast a light heal over time, medial melee and ranged Defense against control effects in an area around you"

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Another question on the description on "Masse preservation". I wonder if a word is missing with the part on melee & ranged defense : "Once toggled on you cast a light heal over time, medial melee and ranged Defense against control effects in an area around you"

You cast a light healmover time, (you cast) melee
And ranged Defense against....


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
Another question on the description on "Masse preservation". I wonder if a word is missing with the part on melee & ranged defense : "Once toggled on you cast a light heal over time, medial melee and ranged Defense against control effects in an area around you"
You cast a light healmover time, (you cast) melee
And ranged Defense against....

Ok ! Thanks tannim :)
I didn't understand that was a medial defense against melee & ranged attaqcks :)
The sentence building often makes me crazy xD

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

TitansCity wrote:
But, what does he mean in saying "You get the other sets in time, and be able to swap between them" ? Could we sitch between focused style during the leveling ??
"when you change your Build" = "when you respec"

Wait, so you can't just head to the trainer and switch builds?!

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Wait, so you can't just head to the trainer and switch builds?!

I don't think that will be so easy ^^
Having a Respec meeded to gain a respec :) It seems that it will be like CoX

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Lets not confuse things.

Lets not confuse things. Outsidenof your starter pve and pvp builds you will earn 2 more build slots at certain levels. With these build slots you can choose a different Specification under your Archetype. But there will be a timed limit to prevent suddent build swaps too quickly.


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Oh, so we start with a PvP

Oh, so we start with a PvP build also? Is this automatically switched when we elect to go into the PvP instance? Is there any reason that we couldn't just use this as an additional PvE build should we prefer?

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Oh, so we start with a PvP build also? Is this automatically switched when we elect to go into the PvP instance? Is there any reason that we couldn't just use this as an additional PvE build should we prefer?

Additional builds are meant to apply access to different Specification (when they are available). We have a dedicated pvp build to minimize barriers between the pvp and pve and it doesn’t grant access to a separate specification.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Lets not confuse things. Outsidenof your starter pve and pvp builds you will earn 2 more build slots at certain levels. With these build slots you can choose a different Specification under your Archetype. But there will be a timed limit to prevent suddent build swaps too quickly.

Don't you think that having 2 more builds slots could slow or go against the fact that an additionnel character slot is gain at level max ? I mean, those 2 slots, they are like a "new" character and don't you think it doesn't go against what you (MVM) thought about the end game (rerool and reroll and reroll... i said reroll but you know, having a new character)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Lets not confuse things. Outsidenof your starter pve and pvp builds you will earn 2 more build slots at certain levels. With these build slots you can choose a different Specification under your Archetype. But there will be a timed limit to prevent suddent build swaps too quickly.
Don't you think that having 2 more builds slots could slow or go against the fact that an additionnel character slot is gain at level max ? I mean, those 2 slots, they are like a "new" character and don't you think it doesn't go against what you (MVM) thought about the end game (rerool and reroll and reroll... i said reroll but you know, having a new character)

You are still locked into your archetype. It is simply a way of expanding what your current character can do within reason. Making a new character lets a player explore different decision trees in missions, play different archetypes, different power set combinations, deal with different faction reps, different Mastery power combos.


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Yep, it makes sense. But, i'm

Yep, it makes sense. But, i'm not really convinced (as far as i must be convinced xD), i don't know why nor how to explain i'm not convinced but 2 more slots seems to me 'too much".
How can a character change its power just "like that", without any effort ? this changes, to my opinion, the character in its essence itself since we made a character as we want it to be. Maybe we could want to change, sometimes, what it can do (respec), but switching throught 4 builds seems too much. At least 3 slots could be a good compromise for people who want a Dr Jekill/Hyde + a PVP build.
That's just my opinion and i didn't think about that since more than 1 hour lol So, you are more wise than me on it ^^ and i don't have anything to "claim" but, what did push you on this direction to give 2 more builds slots per character than the 2 primary slots ? Just curious :)

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Yep, it makes sense. But, i'm not really convinced (as far as i must be convinced xD), i don't know why nor how to explain i'm not convinced but 2 more slots seems to me 'too much".
How can a character change its power just "like that", without any effort ? this changes, to my opinion, the character in its essence itself since we made a character as we want it to be. Maybe we could want to change, sometimes, what it can do (respec), but switching throught 4 builds seems too much. At least 3 slots could be a good compromise for people who want a Dr Jekill/Hyde + a PVP build.
That's just my opinion and i didn't think about that since more than 1 hour lol So, you are more wise than me on it ^^ and i don't have anything to "claim" but, what did push you on this direction to give 2 more builds slots per character than the 2 primary slots ? Just curious :)

I obviously can only speak for myself, but honestly I tend to find a specific build that I like for a character and then stick with it (or close to it). Even in games like RIFT where you can have a dozen builds made up on ridiculous combinations of specs. I don't WANT one character who can do/play everything. I want a character that does "what that character is about" and then if I want a character that does something else, I'll make a different one.

To that end, my builds in CoT will likely just be permutations on the same/similar themes and/or powersets build for Group/solo play/badge hunter/farming/or other specific tasks. If I like my character as a Fighting Prowess/Grit Gladiator and don't think it fits/is desirable to switch him to a Fighting Prowess/Strategy Bodyguard, then I simply won't. I'll make a new character to be a Bodyguard. Other people though might have a character who they feel like it'd be a natural thing for their character to learn to use different powers, or use their current powers to do things other than what they start out doing. Example: Someone makes a Bulwark (Defense/Melee) and styles the powers to all look like ice, but they decide that they don't like the lack of ranged attacks, so they respec/change build to a Bastion (Defense/Assault), they can simply RP this as their character learning or growing the abilities they already have (If I can throw ice shards at someone 5 feet away, it's a natural progression to figure out how to throw ice shards at someone 25 feet away).

You don't need to radically alter the way your character looks or plays just because you have the option to. If you don't feel that it works for you, then don't use it. I most likely won't.

EDIT: On reflection, I realize that my response is really more fitting considering a respec than alternate builds, so I'll submit an alternate example.

Say you have an Ironman type gadgeteer/inventor character who build themselves multiple suits of power armor that are custom tailored to different uses. Different tools for different situations. That person then has the option of calling in the suit that has the abilities most relevant to their current situation and simply swapping to it. Boom. Logical RP explanation for having multiple sets of different abilities. It's really only limited by personal feeling and/or creativity.

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

It's really only limited by personal feeling and/or creativity.

I guess that's it ^^

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Having multiple builds on

Having multiple builds on characters works as the aesthetics are still (probably) going to be the same for your character. It's more or less just a change of strategy than a change of powers. From an in character perspective anyway.

Take Batman for example. He could be a Protection or Melee primary first off. But let's have him be melee primary. Secondary could be super agility, or grit. When support is out devices as a secondary. Or even manipulation when it's out if they can make it look like devices. So that's one character with 2 archetypes, and four specializations. That's not including tertiary powers or masteries or all sorts.

Also could have support - strategy as a secondary, if you wanted a more leadery Batman.

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Since the game is going to be

Since the game is going to be free to play, I would think that the additional builds would be a good candidate for cash shop offerings. I'm with TitanCity on this one, two additional builds per character seems excessive. I do think that most players will gravitate towards one play style and forgo the others on a per-character basis. If only a portion of the population really wants it, why not make it something they pay for?


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Since the game is going to be free to play, I would think that the additional builds would be a good candidate for cash shop offerings. I'm with TitanCity on this one, two additional builds per character seems excessive. I do think that most players will gravitate towards one play style and forgo the others on a per-character basis. If only a portion of the population really wants it, why not make it something they pay for?

I'm fine with multiple builds on a character. It's super helpful. Team lacking in some area? You have a build that can help! Just takes a bit of creative aesthetics to swing most anything into fitting the character idea.

2 additional builds then other additional ones you can pay for seems like it'd be good. Enough for those who want them and then more are available for those who want more. The best thing about additional builds is that they're optional, don't want them? Don't use them. Best to have the option available so folks can choose to make use of it or not.

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We already included the

We already included the multiple build info in a previous update. We won’t be selling build slots in the cash shopnas that impacts game play. They are earned at 2 different levels. CoH had a level-earned build at 10 and another build earned by completing a taskforce. Youncould have 3 builds in total back then as well. It didn’t adversely affect the game.

We are providing more options with our character builds, but they are optional. Nothing forces you to use them.


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I was just thinking after I

I was just thinking after I posted that having them be cash shoppable would be paying for if not power then at least utility.

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Project_Hero][quote
Project_Hero][quote=Huckleberry wrote:

Since the game is going to be free to play, I would think that the additional builds would be a good candidate for cash shop offerings. I'm with TitanCity on this one, two additional builds per character seems excessive. I do think that most players will gravitate towards one play style and forgo the others on a per-character basis. If only a portion of the population really wants it, why not make it something they pay for?
I'm fine with multiple builds on a character. It's super helpful. Team lacking in some area? You have a build that can help! Just takes a bit of creative aesthetics to swing most anything into fitting the character idea.
2 additional builds then other additional ones you can pay for seems like it'd be good. Enough for those who want them and then more are available for those who want more. The best thing about additional builds is that they're optional, don't want them? Don't use them. Best to have the option available so folks can choose to make use of it or not.

Exactly! By your very admittance, let those that want it pay for it so that those that don't won't be given any more they already desire. That's the very best criteria for making something a cash shop item.

Edit: I understand the spirit of what MWM is trying to do with offering free build changes. Especially on your first character. Changing specializations is the same as changing your play style, so they want to make sure every player has an opportunity to find their favored play style. Otherwise we would have to wait until we get a character to level 50 and create an alt. And to add on to that the fact that only one specialization per archetype is available at launch, they want to make sure we can move our starting characters over to specializations that weren't available for us at launch. But rather than giving every character two free builds I think it would make far more sense to give every character two free build swap vouchers. Each voucher would let us swap once to a different build. This lets us try both alternate play styles or try one and swap back to our original for free. Then if we want to be able to create alternate builds we would pay to unlock alternate builds in the cash shop.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I was meaning additional,

I was meaning additional, like beyond 2. 2 is enough so that if there's FotM builds for PvE and PvP then all players would be able to do both... If they were within the same archetype anyway.

But the devs have spoken! No additional builds for the cash shop. Which is good for it is paying for power. No one wants a pay to win experience.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I was meaning additional, like beyond 2. 2 is enough so that if there's FotM builds for PvE and PvP then all players would be able to do both... If they were within the same archetype anyway.
But the devs have spoken! No additional builds for the cash shop. Which is good for it is paying for power. No one wants a pay to win experience.

I know what you meant.

And that would not be paying for power at all. Where do you get that idea from? More than one build does not make a character more powerful than having only one build. In fact, I would say the more builds you have, the less powerful you would be because all your time and effort obtaining or crafting augments and refinements would be split between them.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We already included the multiple build info in a previous update. We won’t be selling build slots in the cash shopnas that impacts game play. They are earned at 2 different levels. CoH had a level-earned build at 10 and another build earned by completing a taskforce. Youncould have 3 builds in total back then as well. It didn’t adversely affect the game.
We are providing more options with our character builds, but they are optional. Nothing forces you to use them.

I'd be interested in hearing how multiple builds impacts gameplay. This sounds interesting. Shall I assume from this statement that there is going to be some planned content that requires players to change builds in the middle of it? If not, how else would it impact the gameplay whether one could swap to an alternate build or not? Since it is the impact that you don't want to put behind a pay barrier, right?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Really? So you don't think

Really? So you don't think having a character crafted to more than one situation offers more power? That having a specific PvP build offers them more power than those who don't? I don't know how many MMOs I've played where someone has said "hold on let me switch to my (insert thing here) spec/gear/whatever". It's power, while not necessarily in the traditional sense but being adaptable to multiple situations is a form of power. No matter how long it takes to get there.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
We already included the multiple build info in a previous update. We won’t be selling build slots in the cash shopnas that impacts game play. They are earned at 2 different levels. CoH had a level-earned build at 10 and another build earned by completing a taskforce. Youncould have 3 builds in total back then as well. It didn’t adversely affect the game.
We are providing more options with our character builds, but they are optional. Nothing forces you to use them.
I'd be interested in hearing how multiple builds impacts gameplay. This sounds interesting. Shall I assume from this statement that there is going to be some planned content that requires players to change builds in the middle of it? If not, how else would it impact the gameplay whether one could swap to an alternate build or not? Since it is the impact that you don't want to put behind a pay barrier, right?

As Project_Hero effectively says, being able to switch to The Best build for almost any situation (assuming enough build slots) gives them more power overall.

I think that 4, with one being dedicated to PvE and PvP respectively, is a good number. That means an effective number of max 3 builds for either environment and considering the number of "focuses" one can take in a build it still makes you have to choose.

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For reference, this topic was

For reference, this topic was discussed quite a bit when it was first announced in the thread below, with a number of positive and negative points made for the design decision as it stands today, beginning around post #30:
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/discuss-what-we-can-do-powers
As discussion came to an end, Dr. Tyche left it as basically that the concerns had been noted and that they would watch during playtesting to see if the problems materialize.

If the decision makes it out of beta without build swaps being nerfed/adjusted to be "more costly" to the character in some way (thus making it equal to or less appealing than making alt characters with those alternate secondary powersets), then I imagine that all of my */Protection characters will be designed to swap to the protection powerset optimized against the group about to be fought, whenever a clear min/max benefit can be obtained. This feature might even make characters with protection secondaries tougher than the Stalwart~Tank (and their unswappable primary protection) in some situations via swap flexibility, despite their base numbers being lower. I would like the ability to make Jekyll/Hyde characters, but I'm not sure the current easily-swappable-builds design is the best approach to getting this in game. I'm willing to see how the testing goes.

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What a number of you assume

What a number of you assume also is that people would just use the builds to produce more PvE builds. Well then you get the PvPers that use all but maybe one of their builds for PvP if you could buy new build slots, you would get players that get to the point of being ni-unstoppable without overwhelming force.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Really? So you don't think having a character crafted to more than one situation offers more power? That having a specific PvP build offers them more power than those who don't?

I didn't say anything about PvP builds. MWM said that the PvP builds were completely separate from the 2 builds you get as part of character advancement and I as far as I'm concerned that is good game design and not a potential cash shop item.

Project_Hero wrote:

Really? So you don't think having a character crafted to more than one situation offers more power? ... I don't know how many MMOs I've played where someone has said "hold on let me switch to my (insert thing here) spec/gear/whatever". It's power, while not necessarily in the traditional sense but being adaptable to multiple situations is a form of power. No matter how long it takes to get there.

Yes, really. I don't. Not if the game is designed well. Changing builds is about changing play style; or at least that's what MWM has stated it should be.

blacke4dawn wrote:

As Project_Hero effectively says, being able to switch to The Best build for almost any situation (assuming enough build slots) gives them more power overall.
I think that 4, with one being dedicated to PvE and PvP respectively, is a good number. That means an effective number of max 3 builds for either environment and considering the number of "focuses" one can take in a build it still makes you have to choose.

If switching power sets gives a character an advantage over any other character in that situation, that would either be poor game design or "Working as Intended," or both.

Let me explain: Let's say you were in some content in which the opponents primarily caused physical damage and were susceptible to exotic damage. It would make sense to switch to a build that was resistant to physical damage and caused exotic damage. In fact, it would be foolish to run that content with anything else because from a game design perspective, that's the build that the scenario would have to be balanced for. Going in with anything else would be handicapping yourself. Maybe the game designers could not avoid creating such situations and as a result had to give players the ability to swap builds in order to keep parity between characters and avoid excluding certain builds from team content. I would at first say that was poor game design with a working fix that deals with it. But at the same time, it could be nearly impossible to avoid such situations.

There are ways to ameliorate such situations. One would be to make sure the opponents are varied enough within the content to make all builds viable. Big boss battles would still drive the group desires, but at least it won't be as one-sided. Another would be to provide different victory conditions depending on whether the group is built more for head-on confrontation or for sideways thinking.

If in the problem above we force players to switch builds for every content they come across, I would think that would be a bad thing; and is a game design I would recommend they avoid. Now I know MWM has stated that they are striving for build parity, but they have also admitted that in different situations different builds may have advantages. In other words, builds would be like tools in a toolbox: Picking the right build for the situation makes the work easy.

Yes I know Tannim222 is going to say "we don't force the player to do anything," but we all know that's not true. If someone wants to play their character their way,and thereby make things more difficult for their group rather than swap over to an optimum build; I can only imagine the vitriol that will cause.

I don't want that game. And I hope that's not the game MWM is building. But that is the game that would result if what you say is true: If one build gives that much of an advantage over other builds that it can't be behind a pay barrier for fear of creating a pay-to-win situation.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huck how would anyone even

Huck how would anyone even know if you had other builds much less what those other builds are? Plus in CoX you had the ability to have builds built specifically for solo/group/TF etc and I dont recall that many occasions where it caused a problem. I think we are putting the cart before the horse and looking for a problem where there isnt one. Those who are about FoTM builds and the like will find each other just like they did in CoX and everyone else will just play the game to have fun.

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KnightMask wrote:
KnightMask wrote:

Huck how would anyone even know if you had other builds much less what those other builds are? Plus in CoX you had the ability to have builds built specifically for solo/group/TF etc and I dont recall that many occasions where it caused a problem. I think we are putting the cart before the horse and looking for a problem where there isnt one. Those who are about FoTM builds and the like will find each other just like they did in CoX and everyone else will just play the game to have fun.

You bring up a good point, I was confusing power set choices with specialization choices.

That invalidates that whole argument about one build being an advantage over another. But it actually helps me to make my point that one specialization is not more advantageous over another.

Here's how I understand it to be:

  • MWM is giving every player 2 free builds in which they can pick a different specialization for each.
  • I suggested that they should charge for the extra builds instead of making them free since they are an option not everyone would want, and as a result are perfect candidate for a cash shop extra.
  • Tannim222 stated that different builds impact gameplay to the point that it would be considered pay-to-win if they were behind a pay barrier.
  • Others have also stated that the ability to swap build provides a competitive advantage over other players
  • I openly ask, again, what competitive advantage will be provided in City of Titans that requires players to have access to more than one specialization per Archetype?

Because if there is a competitive advantage from one specializatiop to another depending on the situation, then I want to know what it is.

-------------------------------------------------
Edit: Here's what I think MWM is actually trying to accomplish:
In Wildstar, for example, every character class can be either a DPS or a tank or a healer. The same for DCUO, except they also throw controller into the mix for a 4 type trinity. Either way, every character can play as a DPS, and that's primarily so all classes have it about the same for solo leveling. Giving every class the option of picking a role in the trinity as tank, healer or controller (basically the DCUO equivalent of an endurance healer) allows the trinities to form without penalizing solo play.

Since we all know how difficult it was at times to solo as a defender in CoX, I think MWM was planning on giving players the free option of selecting a more solo-friendly archetype-specialization to help with solo levelling. And to be fair, they're giving the free specialization to every player, regardless of their first choice.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Having the builds available

Having the builds available to all for free doesn't mean you need to use one. So if you don't want it don't use it. I assume they take a bit of time to set up so if someone has a problem with your current build and asks you to switch it you can tell them you don't have another build set up. If they have a problem with that they're likely not worth playing with.

As for a competitive advantage.
Let's say you have 2 players one has an extra build the other doesn't. Both of them do good single target damage, yet only one has the ability to switch to dealing good area damage. Ergo in some instances (killing mobs) one player will perform better than the other. And yet both perform the same vs. single target (if builds can be switched on a small enough timer: anything under 5mins.) So thereby the player with two builds has a distinct advantage over the other as they can do all the other just as well as they can, and yet do more of another thing better than them.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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And to your edit; yes. Being

And to your edit; yes. Being able to have a solo build and a team build is likely one of the reasons behind this decision. Although I believe they've tried to make it so all builds are viable in solo play but some will inevitably be better (quicker/more efficient) than others. Which is why having the options to switch builds is a good thing and can aid players in playing the game and/or fleshing out their characters.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Having the builds available to all for free doesn't mean you need to use one. So if you don't want it don't use it. I assume they take a bit of time to set up so if someone has a problem with your current build and asks you to switch it you can tell them you don't have another build set up. If they have a problem with that they're likely not worth playing with.

...and

Project_Hero wrote:

And to your edit; yes. Being able to have a solo build and a team build is likely one of the reasons behind this decision. Although I believe they've tried to make it so all builds are viable in solo play but some will inevitably be better (quicker/more efficient) than others. Which is why having the options to switch builds is a good thing and can aid players in playing the game and/or fleshing out their characters.

I don't think repeating something a third (and fourth) time changes it's meaning. What you are describing above, like I've also said twice before, is a perfect candidate for a cash shop item. This is the last time either of us should do this dance.

Project_Hero wrote:

As for a competitive advantage.
Let's say you have 2 players one has an extra build the other doesn't. Both of them do good single target damage, yet only one has the ability to switch to dealing good area damage. Ergo in some instances (killing mobs) one player will perform better than the other. And yet both perform the same vs. single target (if builds can be switched on a small enough timer: anything under 5mins.) So thereby the player with two builds has a distinct advantage over the other as they can do all the other just as well as they can, and yet do more of another thing better than them.

With the build swap timer, I would hope that characters would not be swapping between single target builds and AoE builds with every mob they come across. If this were the case, I would recommend they increase the timer cooldown.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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How long would you think it

How long would you think it should be so it changes from being (if it were paid for) a pay to win option to being a decent amount of time in which no one could abuse without becoming a completely useless thing that's not worth having?

Because still as it stands utility is power. This sole reason is why the casters in D&D are more powerful than the non casters (mitigated in the latest edition) they have the ability to (after a rest, or period of time in non-D&D terms) to completely change their loadout and how they operate. They can, with the right selection, out fight the fighters, and out thief the thief. And you're saying that this should be a paid option. Something that, for money, someone can change from a one trick pony into someone who can handle (and possibly dominate) multiple different scenarios. If you don't see this as paying for power I don't know how I can explain it to help you understand.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

How long would you think it should be so it changes from being (if it were paid for) a pay to win option to being a decent amount of time in which no one could abuse without becoming a completely useless thing that's not worth having?

Since you ask, the timer should be long enough to discourage casual use. Playtesting should determine what the actual duration would be. I would suggest as a first-go that the build swap cooldown should be longer than the average mob respawn timer so someone doesn't just swap between every mob they run across. And I would also suggest that no build swaps can be performed inside an instance (unless mobs inside instances can respawn, which I doubt). But even though people will game that last restriction by leaving the instance and coming back in while a memberof the group stays inside to keep it active. At least it would be a disincentive.

Project_Hero wrote:

Because still as it stands utility is power. This sole reason is why the casters in D&D are more powerful than the non casters (mitigated in the latest edition) they have the ability to (after a rest, or period of time in non-D&D terms) to completely change their loadout and how they operate. They can, with the right selection, out fight the fighters, and out thief the thief. And you're saying that this should be a paid option. Something that, for money, someone can change from a one trick pony into someone who can handle (and possibly dominate) multiple different scenarios. If you don't see this as paying for power I don't know how I can explain it to help you understand.

Here is a scenario that lays it out. Hopefully it will shed more light on this question. As you will see, I don't claim to have the answer, but I do have some assumptions and hopes that, if met, will end up with a game in which changing builds does not provide a competitive advantage:

I have an enforcer with a defense specialization, making me a Gladiator. I am on par with every other gladiator because of good game design. Although there will be some situations where my particular choice of power sets is better or worse, on the whole we're on par.
Then I switch over to an enforcer with a support specialization, making me a Bodyguard. I am on par with every other Bodyguard because of good game design. Although there will be some situations where my particular choice of power sets is better or worse, on the whole we're on par.
Then I switch over to an enforcer with a manipulation specialization, making me a Striker. I am on par with every other Striker because of good game design. Although there will be some situations where my particular choice of power sets is better or worse, on the whole we're on par.

All I did was change my play style. So in my Gladiator mode, I stand and fight all who come at me, relying on my defense for my survivability. In my Bodyguard mode, I also stand and fight, healing myself for my survivability. In my Striker mode, however, I kite a bit more, relying on my manipulation to keep the number of enemies attacking me to a more manageable level so I can survive. My chances of success stayed about the same, assuming my personal skill level was able to meet the obligations of the particular play style I chose. At no point did I obtain power that was competitively advantageous.

Now, if MWM were to design the game such that an entire group of enemies were resistant to manipulation, that would really disadvantage my Striker build. In such a case, it would be competitively advantageous to switch to Gladiator or Bodyguard. If the enemy group also attacked primarily with ranged exotic damage and my Guardian's protection happened to have no resistance to exotic and no defense against ranged, then that build would also be disadvantaged. Really the only competitively advantageous build would be the Bodyguard build at this point, since healing doesn't care what the damage type was. If the game content is designed in such a way, then I will grant you the competitive advantage of being able to swap to a different build and cede the point to you. In such a case, however, we end up back at the place I hope we don't: to wit, people being 'forced' to change their play style, and even their character concept, in order to beat content most efficiently. I don't like that.

There would be two ways to address it:
1. either make the build swaps free and say that swapping build is just how it is going to be (which appears to be how CoT is going), or
2. don't give people the option of swapping builds, so over the course of a character's run they will sometimes find themselves advantaged and sometimes disadvantaged, but on the whole on par with every other character.(I prefer this option for a number of reasons, not least of which is the fact that the majority of players in groups will understand and work with players who are weaker in some situations and stronger in others. This kind of empathy disappears when everyone knows players have a choice to swap builds)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Bear in mind, Of the two

Bear in mind, Of the two build slots we are to get at Launch, one is a PvP slot. Therefore, it would not available or useful to those who don't PvP or visit the PvP instance.

So, for most of us, we get one build until we unlock the first 'bonus' slot at level 10 (I think?). I read that both of the 'bonus' slots were to be unlocked through gameplay.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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There will always be

There will always be situations where a character is not as powerful. All the archetypes and specifications and masteries have their strengths and weaknesses. How pronounced they are remains to be seen.

I doubt that switching builds will be necessary but they'll probably be very helpful. Need a bit more support for a fight but have 2 gladiators? One of you can switch to bodyguard to make things easier. It's a distinct advantage that doesn't necessarily make you more powerful in this instance but it does make you more valuable as a teammate.

You could have multiple builds with different melee secondaries to overcome damage mitigations though which would indeed make you more powerful (seemingly) than those who didn't.

The likelihood of the first build, power choice, whatever you chose being 100% efficient against 100% of content is pretty much 0 right out of the gate. This is to encourage team play. Your one character won't have the tools to be the most efficient at everything not even with multiple builds. The builds however would allow you to use that one character in more situations than they would otherwise. Some builds will be more effective in teams others during solo. And for a lot of this just being able to change masteries would do this which wouldn't drastically alter anyone's character concept.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Bear in mind, Of the two build slots we are to get at Launch, one is a PvP slot. Therefore, it would not available or useful to those who don't PvP or visit the PvP instance.
So, for most of us, we get one build until we unlock the first 'bonus' slot at level 10 (I think?). I read that both of the 'bonus' slots were to be unlocked through gameplay.
Be Well!
Fireheart

That is how I understand it as well.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
So, for most of us, we get one build until we unlock the first 'bonus' slot at level 10 (I think?). I read that both of the 'bonus' slots were to be unlocked through gameplay.
Be Well!
Fireheart
That is how I understand it as well.

In CoH the second build was unlocked at 10 and a third through a task force. For us, the 2nd a d 3rd builds are inlocked through levels, but not at 10.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

In CoH the second build was unlocked at 10 and a third through a task force. For us, the 2nd a d 3rd builds are unlocked through levels, but not at 10.

Okay, perfectly fine, and this still means that a given character can have a PvP build and three PvE builds. Huckleberry's character can swap between all three Secondaries, or can have one Secondary, but swap Tertiaries and Masteries, or just Power load-outs, to prepare for different enemies and situations. Flexible!

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Okay, perfectly fine, and this still means that a given character can have a PvP build and three PvE builds. Huckleberry's character can swap between all three Secondaries, or can have one Secondary, but swap Tertiaries and Masteries, or just Power load-outs, to prepare for different enemies and situations. Flexible!

This was my thinking as well. I would probably have a solo build and a team build and a plan-B build which would be a different take on my solo build. I would definitely pay for that flexibility.

But I'm still curious why Tannim said that they would not make builds a cash shop item because they "impact gameplay." This statement has thrown me for a loop. The only reason I can think of why something that affects gameplay can not be behind a pay barrier is because it would be considered pay-to-win. Thus my comments above on why and what the effects would be if changing builds granted a competitive advantage significant enough to warrant concern by the pay-to-win police.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Okay, perfectly fine, and this still means that a given character can have a PvP build and three PvE builds. Huckleberry's character can swap between all three Secondaries, or can have one Secondary, but swap Tertiaries and Masteries, or just Power load-outs, to prepare for different enemies and situations. Flexible!
This was my thinking as well. I would probably have a solo build and a team build and a plan-B build which would be a different take on my solo build. I would definitely pay for that flexibility.
But I'm still curious why Tannim said that they would not make builds a cash shop item because they "impact gameplay." This statement has thrown me for a loop. The only reason I can think of why something that affects gameplay can not be behind a pay barrier is because it would be considered pay-to-win. Thus my comments above on why and what the effects would be if changing builds granted a competitive advantage significant enough to warrant concern by the pay-to-win police.

I'm thinking it's because gamers, particularly for end game content, have a tendency to self-enforce requirements on others. "Must have gearscore 800+" and the like. You'd quickly end up in a situation where (some, or even many) groups of players would require additional builds to run said content with them, just so that they can tailor the group to each step of the content and maximize the team's performance. (Must have dps and support builds, or something as such.)

Could you simply avoid playing with people like that? Yes. Yes you could. (And I would, cause those people tend to not be people I would like to associate with.)

However that doesn't change the fact that a group of people with multiple builds allows it to be more efficient at content, just by very nature of its flexibility. Flexibility you could have... for just 1000Stars at the in-game store.

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PVE Build

PVE Build
Solo Build
PVP Build

^_^

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

PVE Build
Solo Build
PVP Build
^_^

PvE build
PvP build
Fucking around build ;)

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Now, if MWM were to design the game such that an entire group of enemies were resistant to manipulation, that would really disadvantage my Striker build. In such a case, it would be competitively advantageous to switch to Gladiator or Bodyguard. If the enemy group also attacked primarily with ranged exotic damage and my Guardian's protection happened to have no resistance to exotic and no defense against ranged, then that build would also be disadvantaged. Really the only competitively advantageous build would be the Bodyguard build at this point, since healing doesn't care what the damage type was. If the game content is designed in such a way, then I will grant you the competitive advantage of being able to swap to a different build and cede the point to you. In such a case, however, we end up back at the place I hope we don't: to wit, people being 'forced' to change their play style, and even their character concept, in order to beat content most efficiently. I don't like that.

That depends entirely on how you define "most efficiently".

If you mean that every single build (or at least power set and mastery combination) running a fixed "gauntlet" of having a representative encounter from each group one can combat in-game and end up with effectively the same completion time then I would have to say that you are out of your mind. Designing the game in such a way would make it dull single they couldn't have such varying basic play styles.

Even if you mean "efficiently" as having the same survival chances then there will still be enough variances between builds that jumping between them will be worth it, if you want to be The Most Efficient. Personally though I hope the variances are not that big that most people (all but min-maxers) will feel that they actually need to switch build to have a decent chance of completing each encounter.

Some builds will have an inherent advantage in certain encounter, thus more efficient. Other builds will have an inherent disadvantage in certain encounters, thus less efficient. If you want to be The Most Efficient in every single encounter then yes you should be "forced" to have to change to the specific circumstances on each encounter, that is the price you have to pay for being The Most Efficient.

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