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Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

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Redlynne
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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

1) Do we get a build up animation? Keeping the animation time the same implies that you won't on a snipe.
KAAAAA...MEEEE....HAAAA ;)

I would presume that all Interrupt(able) Powers will actually involve what amounts to "chaining" a couple of animations. There will be a fixed length "coda" animation that comes at the end (shoot the gun, wave the wand, read the newspaper, flip the pancake, you get the idea) ... but what comes before that animation will need to vary in length because it can be (duh) interrupted and abort to doing the "coda" animation portion at any time.

So for example, if you're using what amounts to a very anime Particle Ingathering of either the Sucking-In Lines and/or the Wave Motion Tuning Fork variety that can be produced by the 魔法少女 / 鬼砲少女 (magical girl / DEMON CANNON girl) combo of Raising Heart being wielded by Nanoha ...

... the whole Particle Ingathering portion of the animation is the Interrupt part up at the front, and the BLASTING portion is the "coda" at the end of the animation that happens when the Interrupt Time either gets interrupted or the character is "left alone" long enough to complete the delay in order to unleash full power.

Speaking of which ... I don't suppose we could get Particle Ingathering FX as an option for Snipe Interrupts could we?


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Yeah that makes sense. I'd

Yeah that makes sense. I'd guess to ask if they can be interchanged too. Swapping build up and main attacks easily.

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Here's the interesting thing

Here's the interesting thing to know about this reveal of Interrupts.

In City of Heroes, Interrupts (which included things like Aid Self as well as Snipes) would cost Endurance to activate ... but if they were interrupted you got NOTHING aside from wasting your time (and Endurance) in the effort. Interrupting an Interruptable Power meant you lost everything in the attempt.

In City of Titans, Interrupts will once again cost to activate ... but if they're interrupted they'll still fire off and take effect. You won't get as much of an effect as you would have if you WEREN'T interrupted ... but you'll at least get SOMETHING rather than nothing at all (at a loss of time and Endurance).

I'm liking this change already.


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Quick question: way up in

Quick question: way up in this thread Tannim said something about standard and alternate attacks on a single power being effectively equal, using the example of KD and KB. Does that just mean the time for the enemy to get back on its feet is equal for each variation, or that KD time = KB time + the time it would take the enemy to travel back to where it originally was when attacked?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doubtful that any "travel

Doubtful that any "travel time" to return to a former position will be taken into account, simply because of the situational variables involved. If you use KnockBACK to toss someone off the roof of a skyscraper or a catwalk or something, it's going to take them a LOT longer to find a route to "run" back up to where they fell from.

I'm assuming that the "fall and get up" time would be the same in either case, since that is something that would be known in advance and would not be subject to situational variables brought about by terrain, location and context.


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Question!

Question!
It's not about KB or KD.

Illusionary images in illusion control, will those be customizable? If yes, can I make them look like my character? If no, what are they planning on looking like?

In that same vein; pets. Will you be able to make them look like your character so you can emulate comics characters such as: Triplicate Girl, Billy Numerous, Dupli-Kate, and Multi-Paul?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Illusionary images in illusion control, will those be customizable? If yes, can I make them look like my character? If no, what are they planning on looking like?

The Devs have vaguely talked about possibly letting us customize Commander henchmen at some point. I'm actually not sure that would ever include Operator pets, especially any pets that aren't strictly "humanoid" shaped (i.e. Fire Imps). I get that the illusion control pets specifically would be prime candidates for customization, but I don't think I'd hold my breath for that happening any time soon.

Project_Hero wrote:

In that same vein; pets. Will you be able to make them look like your character so you can emulate comics characters such as: Triplicate Girl, Billy Numerous, Dupli-Kate, and Multi-Paul?

One of my long-time (pun intended) "pet" suggestions has always been the idea of having "customizble vanity pets". I'm not talking about just the illusion control pets here - I'm talking about pets that anyone can get (likely obtainable from the in-game store).

The idea is pretty simple: basically this pet would use the PC body models and have its own costume slot that could be edited/modified just as if it was a costume slot for a player character. Once established the pet would then be able to look like anything you wanted it to look like and follow you around just like the vanity pets from CoH did. To be absolutely clear these would just be vanity pets with no combat effects/capabilities so the Devs wouldn't have to worry about how to make them work in combat.

With a customizble vanity pet like that you could create clones of your own PCs or make an "instant sidekick" for yourself (like you could create a Robin for your Batman) or anything else you could imagine. I've actually had Devs respond favorably to this idea in these forums so I'm hoping this is something they are seriously considering. :)

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Yeah, that'd be nice.

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Another idea in the duplicates thing would be to have an aesthetic for dodge powers that give you fake copies of you on either side of you. Or at least close to you. That'd be probably pretty simple to do, partially see through copies that mimic your actions (though they wouldn't truely be able to attack, just doing the animations minus particle effects and power effects etc.)

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Another idea in the duplicates thing would be to have an aesthetic for dodge powers that give you fake copies of you on either side of you. Or at least close to you. That'd be probably pretty simple to do, partially see through copies that mimic your actions (though they wouldn't truely be able to attack, just doing the animations minus particle effects and power effects etc.)

Yeah maybe an aesthetic could create semi-ghostly copies of your character that could fade/pop whenever you take damage or some-such. I suppose there's a lot of variations that could be created like this.

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On a completely seperate note

On a completely seperate note I love how Fighting Prowess grants defense buffs. This pairs nicely with super agility's evasion effects. That way it's not all or nothing when it comes to dodging.

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This is the description of

spoiler alert: very minor pet peeve here, nothing more.

This is the description of the tier 8 Barrier set power (boldface added by me for emphasis):

"Insulated Shell (tier 8): You summon a physical shell to protect a yourself or a group member. This protection has a limited range and is maintained over time by being toggled on. It protects from all effects by straining your Power to maintain this protection. Should any enemy enter within range of the Insulated Shell, it will physically knocked them backward. Be careful, for each knock back further drains your Power. The Insulated Shell also reduces friction, increasing movement speed. Recharge Medial. "

I'm fine with the power doing whatever it does. But as a physics teacher I want to point out that reducing the friction between your feet and the floor does not cause you to move faster when trying to accelerate forward. You need MORE friction between you and the floor to be able to accelerate faster without slipping and sliding, and you WANT to avoid slipping and sliding when you try to accelerate , stop, or turn. You want your feet to have as firm as purchase on the ground as possible in those cases. You need friction between you and the floor to be able to push yourself forward using the floor as a surface to push against, to stop yourself, and to be able to turn or steer in any way. Without friction you would just stand in place and move your legs while your feet just slip and slide as you run in place like a guy doing the "running man" dance on a slick icy surface. The only frictional forces that cause a car to move slower, or make it less efficient in any way are the INTERNAL friction of the gears on each other and so forth which convert come of the mechanical motion of the moving parts into useless waste heat. So lubricating the inside of the gearbox makes the car less inefficient, which is good, but lubricating the wheels where they meet the road is REALLY stupid, because it robs you of your ability to move, stop and turn all in one shot.

What you probably mean is that the Insulated Shell reduces the viscous drag force that the air exerts on moving objects as they try to push through it at high speeds. This force sometimes get's lumped in with other non-ideal forces as "the usual 'frictional' losses" that often get ignored or hand-waved at in simple textbook problems.

I'm not trying to argue for more realism in the powers. I'm not trying to argue that this particular power be changed in any way in terms of the game effects. I'm just requesting that you correct the wording in the description to get the science right in places where the science fiction references it, that's all.

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Maybe it means air friction?

Maybe it means air friction? Doesn't the Flash have a frictionless suit or something?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Maybe it means air friction? Doesn't the Flash have a frictionless suit or something?

That is about how I interpreted it, yes, but it could be taken to mean "reduces the friction between you and the floor, allowing you to slide around at high speed" which is very inaccurate. The Flash also has shoes, the soles of which give him MORE grip on the ground, not less.

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damn that's a pet peeve :p

damn that's a pet peeve :p But yeah, are you faster or slower on ice ;)

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If you can get any sort of

If you can get any sort of static frictional grip on the ice (by using the skates in such a way as to push off against it) then you can skate faster than you could run, but that's not the same thing as what I think we're talking about. I mean, does the Insulated Shell have a toe pick or something that you can use to grip the ground with like a pair of figure skates has? When a skater tries to accelerate forward, they turn their skate at an angle in order to cause the sharp edge of the skate to dig in to the ice and give them something to push off against. It doesn't sound to me like a force field as described above would have that capability.

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Admittedly, this is probably

Admittedly, this is probably a problem only for me. I'm one of those people who can tell you about how totally inaccurate the physics is in movies, etc too. So if this is a "suspension of disbelief" thing, so be it.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If you can get any sort of static frictional grip on the ice (by using the skates in such a way as to push off against it) then you can skate faster than you could run, but that's not the same thing as what I think we're talking about. I mean, does the Insulated Shell have a toe pick or something that you can use to grip the ground with like a pair of figure skates has? When a skater tries to accelerate forward, they turn their skate at an angle in order to cause the sharp edge of the skate to dig in to the ice and give them something to push off against. It doesn't sound to me like a force field as described above would have that capability.

Maybe the shell stops just shy of the soles of the feet. That'd suck when it comes to caltrops though.

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I don't know, REDUCING the

I don't know, REDUCING the friction between your feet and the caltrops wouldn't make them any less of a problem. They'd just go right up the bottom of your foot like a hot knife through butter, right?

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But the shell also protects

But the shell also protects from all effects, meaning caltrops even without friction wouldn't do anything :O

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The Insulated Shell also reduces friction, increasing movement speed.

desviper wrote:

But yeah, are you faster or slower on ice ;)

I'm sorry. You were saying something about friction?

Radiac wrote:

If you can get any sort of static frictional grip on the ice (by using the skates in such a way as to push off against it) then you can skate faster than you could run, but that's not the same thing as what I think we're talking about.

Yeah, use ice skates, like the Swedes do in Not Summer.

To be fair to Tannim222 (and friends on the Powers Team), I think what they were after was something more like this ...

... or for those who don't remember that scene all too well, here's a clip (important part for our discussion starts at 3:00 in) ...


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I'm sorry. You were saying something about friction?

What's extra funny about that first vid is that for about half a second it looks like the ice was going to stay intact enough to keep this guy from getting wet but then it gives way to add insult to injury. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
I'm sorry. You were saying something about friction?
What's extra funny about that first vid is that for about half a second it looks like the ice was going to stay intact enough to keep this guy from getting wet but then it gives way to add insult to injury. ;)

Probably injury to injury too XD

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I am surprised this was not

I am surprised this was not asked earlier.

it is known that power sets come with an augment slot.

when we get a new augment slot must we slot with a specific power or
can we optionally slot it into a power set slot?

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

I am surprised this was not asked earlier.
it is known that power sets come with an augment slot.
when we get a new augment slot must we slot with a specific power or
can we optionally slot it into a power set slot?

Only powers.


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So sets take Set Augments and

So sets take Set Augments and powers take Power Augments, and never the two shall be mixed, then?

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I'm guessing that Power Sets

I'm guessing that Power Sets get a Set Augment Slot and individual Powers get Power Augment Slots. Those are definitely different. I'm thinking that Augments can be slotted into either one, but not certain.

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Another question this raises

Another question this raises in my mind is, if we have any kind of "Proc" type augment, what slot will that be in? If it's in the set slot, you presumably get the proc effect in all of the attack, right?

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Save additonal questions for

Save additonal questions for Augments and such. There wjll be an update in the not too distant future (soon tm) on the subject.

Try sticking to questions about Power Set design, the power sets themselves, powers, and mechanics represented.


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I noticed that in the control

I noticed that in the control sets, the tier 1 powers shown are both immobilizes, while the tier 2 power shown is a ST hold. This is very reminiscent of many City of Heroes sets. Can we anticipate a structure like this to be consistent?

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

I noticed that in the control sets, the tier 1 powers shown are both immobilizes, while the tier 2 power shown is a ST hold. This is very reminiscent of many City of Heroes sets. Can we anticipate a structure like this to be consistent?

The set design templates for Focused Play Styles do follow some of the structures you have seen in the old game. For Control Sets some willl be familair while others will offer a bit of a divergence.


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Interesting. So we might see

Interesting. So we might see some hard AoE controls start to appear around tier 5 and 6 for example.

A couple more questions if I may:

Is there any variation in these sets depending on Archetype? Melee sets in City of Heroes were sometimes a little different between Scrappers, Tanks, Brutes and Stalkers for example, to keep within the specific parameters of their function. (Stalkers had fewer AoEs but needed some version of Assassin's Strike for example.) I get the impression CoT sets won't see any substitutions of that nature, but I'm not sure. When a set is used as both a Primary and Secondary, as most of these will be, how are they differentiated in those contexts? Is there some form of Archetype modifiers that will make Primary powers stronger than Secondary powers, or something else?

It's been previously mentioned that characters receive some form of basic melee and basic ranged attack for free, and I think it was also said they will be related to our power set selections. Is that in addition to the powers we're looking at here, perhaps a kind of "tier 0"? Do they simply take the most common damage type of the set in question, or do they also inherit the mechanical themes somehow?

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A few of the example powers

A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".

My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.

This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".
My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.
This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.

Yeah this is a new power type/cost that some of the powers have, and your breakdown is also how I read them to function. There are examples of both the traditional toggle- those that cost a certain amount of Endurance* per unit of time (e.g. Indestructible from the Invulnerability powerset)- and this new power type- those that reduce your max End while active, but have no cost per unit of time (e.g. Stand Fast from the Solid Form powerset) in the powers info that we've been shown.

*Whatever our power resource is called.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".
My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.
This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.

That's right. Different approach to the same issue. We felt this way was going to be easier on players. Plus, it's easier to code, honestly.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".
My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.
This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.
That's right. Different approach to the same issue. We felt this way was going to be easier on players. Plus, it's easier to code, honestly.

How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?

Also will any of the Protection based Tertiaries have these?
If there are multiple in the Set, plus any Tertiaries, I can see a point where you could go Full TankTM and turn on all such powers but only be able to kick the boss in the shins 1 every 15 seconds hoping the team can take them down in time.

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:
A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".
My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.
This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.
That's right. Different approach to the same issue. We felt this way was going to be easier on players. Plus, it's easier to code, honestly.
How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?

Most are.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

OathboundOne wrote:
How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?
Also will any of the Protection based Tertiaries have these?
If there are multiple in the Set, plus any Tertiaries, I can see a point where you could go Full TankTM and turn on all such powers but only be able to kick the boss in the shins 1 every 15 seconds hoping the team can take them down in time.

Tertiaries can, yes. And yes, we have calculated out at least 4 builds which would be stuck with only the Tier 0 powers (which have no end cost). On the other hand, the terms "can't hit me" or "was that supposed to hurt" apply.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

OathboundOne wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:
A few of the example powers have the following as part of the description:
"Once switched on, this ability will always remain active and automatically reactivate when you recover from defeat, but will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep by a significant amount making the cost a deciding factor in whether to keep it active or not".
My questions is about the "will reduce your Power resource for ability upkeep" part.
To me this reads as your Max Power (ie: Endurance) will be reduced by an amount whilst this power is active. Your Power recovery can now only go up to the new lower max.
Example:
Max Power = 100
Ability Cost = 40
Max Power with Ability Active = 60
You make a few attacks so your Current Power hits 20.
Leaving the Ability Active and letting your Power recover, or receiving a +Power buff, etc can only take you up to 60.
This is different to the CoH system where such powers had Endurance Drain such as -2 End/sec.
That's right. Different approach to the same issue. We felt this way was going to be easier on players. Plus, it's easier to code, honestly.
How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?
Most are.

Point of clarification - there are still your standard toggles which use Power over time to maintain and can drop on defeat (called Toggle-Maintenance or just a toggle).

Key toggles in sets are what we call a Toggle-Switch (or just Switch instead of toggle to differentiate) cost a fixed amount of Power on activation. These don't drop when you are defeated. However, the cost of reducing your Power Meter can be a deciding factor whether or not to keep the Switch on or not at all times.


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*points to Tannim* He knows

*points to Tannim* He knows the system better than I do.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
How many such powers are typically in a powerset? Are most toggles set up this way, or is it only one or two/a few?
Also will any of the Protection based Tertiaries have these?
If there are multiple in the Set, plus any Tertiaries, I can see a point where you could go Full TankTM and turn on all such powers but only be able to kick the boss in the shins 1 every 15 seconds hoping the team can take them down in time.
Tertiaries can, yes. And yes, we have calculated out at least 4 builds which would be stuck with only the Tier 0 powers (which have no end cost). On the other hand, the terms "can't hit me" or "was that supposed to hurt" apply.

Awesome.
Love that I can chose to go Full Tank if I want to knowing that I wont be doing much damage. It's a choice that I and my team can make.
"Team I'm going MC Hammer"
Go Full Tank "Can't Touch This"
STOP (using all such powers)
Bring out my attack weapon "Hammer time"

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Interesting. So we might see some hard AoE controls start to appear around tier 5 and 6 for example.
A couple more questions if I may:
Is there any variation in these sets depending on Archetype? Melee sets in City of Heroes were sometimes a little different between Scrappers, Tanks, Brutes and Stalkers for example, to keep within the specific parameters of their function. (Stalkers had fewer AoEs but needed some version of Assassin's Strike for example.) I get the impression CoT sets won't see any substitutions of that nature, but I'm not sure. When a set is used as both a Primary and Secondary, as most of these will be, how are they differentiated in those contexts? Is there some form of Archetype modifiers that will make Primary powers stronger than Secondary powers, or something else?
It's been previously mentioned that characters receive some form of basic melee and basic ranged attack for free, and I think it was also said they will be related to our power set selections. Is that in addition to the powers we're looking at here, perhaps a kind of "tier 0"? Do they simply take the most common damage type of the set in question, or do they also inherit the mechanical themes somehow?

Right now, there are no variations between Archetypes. When we get into some of the newer Archetypes we may have to revise certain sets.
There are modifiers applied to the entire Set when it is placed in Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary templates. These don't take any consideration to Archetype modifiers or anything of that sort.
There are also modifiers for how certain effects improve based on if the effect falls under a Primary placement, Secondary, or Tertiary for that Archetype.
Example: a Stalwart has a Protection Primary and any protection abilities stacked will use a primary placement mod to the effect. Getting a buff from a Support power for say +Resist will get applied with this Primary placement modifier.
An Enforcer receiving the same buff will have the value adjusted with the Secondary placement modifier.
A Ranger with a Support Secondary receiving a Protection buff will receive it and it will be modified by the Tertiary placement mod.
Not everything follows this schema. Accuracy is universal to everyone for example.

Tier 0 is exactly what we label these powers internally. These are your starter powers that everyone gets, a basic melee and basic ranged pffense. Their damage type is matched to the attack set. They do not use any mechanics of the power set however.


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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

*points to Tannim* He knows the system better than I do.

High-fives Dr. T - he corrects me more often than not on many other aspects of design. I've lived with the power system for several years now - often lying awake at night through insomnia thinking through power designs for sets and npcs.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Try sticking to questions about Power Set design, the power sets themselves, powers, and mechanics represented.

So, when will we have the translation of the name of the basique style and the focused style ? (and in which langage ? ^^)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Pyromantic wrote:
Interesting. So we might see some hard AoE controls start to appear around tier 5 and 6 for example.
A couple more questions if I may:
Is there any variation in these sets depending on Archetype? Melee sets in City of Heroes were sometimes a little different between Scrappers, Tanks, Brutes and Stalkers for example, to keep within the specific parameters of their function. (Stalkers had fewer AoEs but needed some version of Assassin's Strike for example.) I get the impression CoT sets won't see any substitutions of that nature, but I'm not sure. When a set is used as both a Primary and Secondary, as most of these will be, how are they differentiated in those contexts? Is there some form of Archetype modifiers that will make Primary powers stronger than Secondary powers, or something else?
It's been previously mentioned that characters receive some form of basic melee and basic ranged attack for free, and I think it was also said they will be related to our power set selections. Is that in addition to the powers we're looking at here, perhaps a kind of "tier 0"? Do they simply take the most common damage type of the set in question, or do they also inherit the mechanical themes somehow?
Right now, there are no variations between Archetypes. When we get into some of the newer Archetypes we may have to revise certain sets.
There are modifiers applied to the entire Set when it is placed in Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary templates. These don't take any consideration to Archetype modifiers or anything of that sort.
There are also modifiers for how certain effects improve based on if the effect falls under a Primary placement, Secondary, or Tertiary for that Archetype.
Example: a Stalwart has a Protection Primary and any protection abilities stacked will use a primary placement mod to the effect. Getting a buff from a Support power for say +Resist will get applied with this Primary placement modifier.
An Enforcer receiving the same buff will have the value adjusted with the Secondary placement modifier.
A Ranger with a Support Secondary receiving a Protection buff will receive it and it will be modified by the Tertiary placement mod.
Not everything follows this schema. Accuracy is universal to everyone for example.
Tier 0 is exactly what we label these powers internally. These are your starter powers that everyone gets, a basic melee and basic ranged pffense. Their damage type is matched to the attack set. They do not use any mechanics of the power set however.

Hmmm, so your classification determines not only how effective YOUR powers of a certain type (eg Support powers) are, but also how effective SOMEONE ELSE'S powers of that type are on you? A Guardian casting a Resist buff on a Stalwart grants a bigger buff than the same Guardian casting the same buff on an Enforcer, and so forth?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Hmmm, so your classification determines not only how effective YOUR powers of a certain type (eg Support powers) are, but also how effective SOMEONE ELSE'S powers of that type are on you? A Guardian casting a Resist buff on a Stalwart grants a bigger buff than the same Guardian casting the same buff on an Enforcer, and so forth?

Sort of. This is orobably a bigger discussion best left to an update of its own. It has to do with how we handle effects stacking for balance purposes.
I gave that example because Protection Sets are the easiert to distinguish because each power in a set that provides the same effect bufff stacks. For Stalwarts, protections stack better, if the buff comes from a Support power, and lands on a Stalwart, the effect will stack...with less of a modification (depending on other factors).

If the same buff is applied to an Enforcer, the effect will be applied with a different modifier.

It is easier to improve protections on a stalwart than it is on non stalwarts. Buffs don’t get bigger. They are modified differently upon application.


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Um, can we augment these

Um, can we augment these 'Switch' type powers to be more efficient and leave us a little more juice to work with? I was never that bothered by Toggles, when I could compensate for the cost of running them. Heck, by level 50, my Invulnerability/Energy Melee Tanker ran a half-dozen toggles, with Sprint and Combat Jumping, and even when fighting hard, his Endurance would only bounce a bit - except when he was Sapped.

I'd hate to lose the easy confidence that gave me. I don't want to have to become a rabid gauge-watcher!

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Um, can we augment these 'Switch' type powers to be more efficient and leave us a little more juice to work with? I was never that bothered by Toggles, when I could compensate for the cost of running them. Heck, by level 50, my Invulnerability/Energy Melee Tanker ran a half-dozen toggles, with Sprint and Combat Jumping, and even when fighting hard, his Endurance would only bounce a bit - except when he was Sapped.
I'd hate to lose the easy confidence that gave me. I don't want to have to become a rabid gauge-watcher!
Be Well!
Fireheart

You can reduce the power cost of any typemof toggle. But not with an augment, that is a refinement.


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Do we have a tertiary heal

Do we have a tertiary heal type set or heal set that all of its powers require you to be very close to the character your using it on ?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

OathboundOne wrote:
Hmmm, so your classification determines not only how effective YOUR powers of a certain type (eg Support powers) are, but also how effective SOMEONE ELSE'S powers of that type are on you? A Guardian casting a Resist buff on a Stalwart grants a bigger buff than the same Guardian casting the same buff on an Enforcer, and so forth?
Sort of. This is orobably a bigger discussion best left to an update of its own. It has to do with how we handle effects stacking for balance purposes.
I gave that example because Protection Sets are the easiert to distinguish because each power in a set that provides the same effect bufff stacks. For Stalwarts, protections stack better, if the buff comes from a Support power, and lands on a Stalwart, the effect will stack...with less of a modification (depending on other factors).
If the same buff is applied to an Enforcer, the effect will be applied with a different modifier.
It is easier to improve protections on a stalwart than it is on non stalwarts. Buffs don’t get bigger. They are modified differently upon application.

I'm kinda torn on this but from a balancing point of view I certainly see why you have chosen to do this. With a few buffs non-stalwarts could end up with a negligible difference in defensive stats compared to a stalwart. Of course it could still happen but non-stalwarts would need many more stacks than a stalwart, so in a team situation that is very unlikely outside of "oh-shit" situations which I don't see being used constantly.

On another note, will support sets be able to cast on self as standard or will it be more like CoH where it was more of an exception?
That was one of the few things I really hated about CoH, making most of Defender's defensive powers unusable while soloing.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:
DoctorTyche wrote:

Tertiaries can, yes. And yes, we have calculated out at least 4 builds which would be stuck with only the Tier 0 powers (which have no end cost). On the other hand, the terms "can't hit me" or "was that supposed to hurt" apply.

Awesome.
Love that I can chose to go Full Tank if I want to knowing that I wont be doing much damage. It's a choice that I and my team can make.
"Team I'm going MC Hammer"
Go Full Tank "Can't Touch This"
STOP (using all such powers)
Bring out my attack weapon "Hammer time"

I like this idea, even if just for variety.

Also loving your musical illustration of the concept, Cyber. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Do we have a tertiary heal type set or heal set that all of its powers require you to be very close to the character your using it on ?

blacke4dawn wrote:

On another note, will support sets be able to cast on self as standard or will it be more like CoH where it was more of an exception?
That was one of the few things I really hated about CoH, making most of Defender's defensive powers unusable while soloing.

Just to lay down a marker ... I've always hated the Aid Other/Aid Self divide of forcing Players to pick TWO Powers that do the exact same thing in order to affect Others AND Self in City of Heroes. This was another thing that World of Warcraft did a lot better in that you were given a "toggle switch" keybind that allowed the Player to select between affecting Others OR Self using the exact same skill.

This would be a perfect example of proliferating the KnockBACK/KnockDOWN keybind switch schema to additional uses. Remember, KnockBACK/KnockDOWN is something you only want to do to Foes, not to Allies, and is therefore something you want to switch between when targeting Adversaries. The difference between Heal Other/Heal Self or even functions like Buff Other/Buff Self are things where you only want to affect Allies, not Foes, and preferably without needing to change your target selection between others and yourself. You can even use the same keybind toggle for both purposes in the UI. For example:

  • 1 = Force Bolt (KnockDOWN)
  • 1 + Shift = Force Bolt (KnockBACK)
  • 2 = Heal (Target)
  • 2 + Shift = Heal (Self)
  • 3 = Buff (Target)
  • 3 + Shift = Buff (Self)

Basically like that.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Right now, there are no variations between Archetypes. When we get into some of the newer Archetypes we may have to revise certain sets.
There are modifiers applied to the entire Set when it is placed in Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary templates. These don't take any consideration to Archetype modifiers or anything of that sort.
There are also modifiers for how certain effects improve based on if the effect falls under a Primary placement, Secondary, or Tertiary for that Archetype.
Example: a Stalwart has a Protection Primary and any protection abilities stacked will use a primary placement mod to the effect. Getting a buff from a Support power for say +Resist will get applied with this Primary placement modifier.
An Enforcer receiving the same buff will have the value adjusted with the Secondary placement modifier.
A Ranger with a Support Secondary receiving a Protection buff will receive it and it will be modified by the Tertiary placement mod.
Not everything follows this schema. Accuracy is universal to everyone for example.

Not to go too far out of field, as you said this might be a whole update in itself, but I want to make sure I understand this idea correctly.

So a Stalwart taking a Protection power from their Primary would see the benefits both of it coming from a Primary set and it having a Primary modifier for their Archetype. If that same Stalwart decided to take a Protection power from a Tertiary (assuming this remains possible), it would be somewhat reduced for being from a Tertiary but still benefit from the Primary modifier.

If an Operator used Protective Barrier on him- or herself when soloing, the power would still be useful but would be reduced for coming from a Secondary set and having a Tertiary modifier. On the other hand, when a Guardian used the same power to buff the team, the team's Stalwart would enjoy the benefit of it being a Primary power (being from the Guardian's Primary) and having a Primary modifier (for being a Protection power on a Stalwart.)

Incidentally, I suppose this is why it makes a lot more sense to be able to use buffs on oneself. This was one of the things that always bugged me in City of Heroes: there was an artificial divide between buffs that could be applied to oneself and buffs that couldn't. Also made a lot of powers literally useless when soloing. What you've said sounds like an elegant solution to that, which I really like.

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The old game saw a lot of

The old game saw a lot of people try (and succeed in some cases) to make a Scrapper that's tankier than most tankers. With the description of how the "lower your max Power while active" Switch powers work, I would assume that the version of those powers available to the melee "Scrapper" type builds in CoT will be less efficient in the sense that you both toons COULD make a "zero Power" build where all you can do to attack is use your tier 0s. I would assume that the Stalwart who does that get's more resist/defense out of that build than the melee offense guy would get. That could be a matter of the Scrapper guy getting lower max resistance as a hard cap, or getting less resistance for the same amount of "Power bar shortening", or getting the same amount of reisistance out of the same powers but with more "Power bar shortening" thus causing the Scrapper type to have fewer such Switch power active while in "max protect" mode, etc.

Interesting.

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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

This was one of the things that always bugged me in City of Heroes: there was an artificial divide between buffs that could be applied to oneself and buffs that couldn't. Also made a lot of powers literally useless when soloing. What you've said sounds like an elegant solution to that, which I really like.

One of my pet peeves about City of Heroes had to do with just how ... crippled ... the Leadership Pool was in order to account for "well what if there are 8 people with this Pool on a team?"

Take a look at Maneuvers, for example ... where the buff ranged from +2.625 to +3.5 Defense vs All depending on your Archetype. For solo use, this was "next to nothing" in the overall scheme of things, and the toggle was EXPENSIVE to pay for in terms of upkeep.

Now why was it so low in buff value? Well ...

3.5 * 1.6 (Schedule B limit under ED) * 8 (full Team of Players with the Maneuvers Pool) = 44.8 ... which was 0.2 shy of the 45 softcap on Defense.
2.625 * 1.6 * 8 = 33.6 ... which was 11.4 shy of the 45 softcap on Defense

So basically there was a "budget" of 45 Defense buff to play with and then you divide that by 8 and divide again by 1.6 (for "maximal" Enhancement) and you get ... 3.5 as the top end buffing available per person ... which isn't that bad ... but it's also not that good.

My thought was always that someone using the Leadership Pool toggles ought to get a "double share" of the Buff that the Powers offered. Essentially, give the Powers TWO effects ... a Team Aura (that still affected the caster) and a Self Only bonus. This would mean that there would be up to "9 shares" of the buff, with the character running the toggles receiving 2 of the 9 shares, while everyone else got 1 share each.

So, taking all of that into consideration, here's how the math would change under the old assumptions.

8 equal shares (as seen above but working backwards this time):
45 Defense / 1.6 (Schedule B ED limit) / 8 (full team) = 3:5156 = 3.5 (base) to All / 5.6 (enhanced at x1.6) to All

8 equal shares for all plus 1 extra share for self:
45 Defense / 1.6 (Schedule B ED limit) / 9 (all shares combined for full team) = 3.125 (base) to All
"Extra" Self Only share = 3.125
Net Result: 3.125 (base) to All / 6.25 (base) to Self ... 5 (enhanced at x1.6) to All / 10 (enhanced at x1.6) to Self

By slightly reducing the "all shares" and adding an extra "self only share" to the effects of the Power, the value of having the Power for yourself, even when not in a Team situation, is markedly improved ... to the point where it would actually start making sense to take the Power as a soloist.

Sadly, this idea was never adopted for City of Heroes ... but I'm hoping it could be adopted for City of Titans. For "leadership" styled Team Buffs, I very much want to see a "9 shares" dynamic at work, rather than an "equal 8 shares" dynamic be used ... if only because by the time you divide out all of the "budget" for augment/refinement effects and the maximum team size, there's almost nothing left for the soloist to be incentivized (enough) into picking up the Powers. They turn into a sort of "altruist only" pool of Powers, rather than being something where "I can get more out of this by taking it myself" as part of your build. You'd still need to slot up with Augments/Refinements, so there would need to be investment in order to get "the most" out of these Powers, but that's a different discussion.

So ... any commentary from the staff on the notion of the "9 vs 8 shares" idea for Team Aura Powers design?
Note that such a schema can be used more broadly ... like for Force Field Bubble (Barriers?) styled powersets, where the caster automatically derives more benefit from their continuously running Aura Powers than the other members of the Team do. Why? Because it's THEIR Power, and they have the most experience with ... themselves. Other people still benefit, but the caster gains a "double share" of the benefit ... once for keeping the Power "up" and once for being the caster of Power.


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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Right now, there are no variations between Archetypes. When we get into some of the newer Archetypes we may have to revise certain sets.
There are modifiers applied to the entire Set when it is placed in Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary templates. These don't take any consideration to Archetype modifiers or anything of that sort.
There are also modifiers for how certain effects improve based on if the effect falls under a Primary placement, Secondary, or Tertiary for that Archetype.
Example: a Stalwart has a Protection Primary and any protection abilities stacked will use a primary placement mod to the effect. Getting a buff from a Support power for say +Resist will get applied with this Primary placement modifier.
An Enforcer receiving the same buff will have the value adjusted with the Secondary placement modifier.
A Ranger with a Support Secondary receiving a Protection buff will receive it and it will be modified by the Tertiary placement mod.
Not everything follows this schema. Accuracy is universal to everyone for example.
Not to go too far out of field, as you said this might be a whole update in itself, but I want to make sure I understand this idea correctly.
So a Stalwart taking a Protection power from their Primary would see the benefits both of it coming from a Primary set and it having a Primary modifier for their Archetype. If that same Stalwart decided to take a Protection power from a Tertiary (assuming this remains possible), it would be somewhat reduced for being from a Tertiary but still benefit from the Primary modifier.
If an Operator used Protective Barrier on him- or herself when soloing, the power would still be useful but would be reduced for coming from a Secondary set and having a Tertiary modifier. On the other hand, when a Guardian used the same power to buff the team, the team's Stalwart would enjoy the benefit of it being a Primary power (being from the Guardian's Primary) and having a Primary modifier (for being a Protection power on a Stalwart.)
Incidentally, I suppose this is why it makes a lot more sense to be able to use buffs on oneself. This was one of the things that always bugged me in City of Heroes: there was an artificial divide between buffs that could be applied to oneself and buffs that couldn't. Also made a lot of powers literally useless when soloing. What you've said sounds like an elegant solution to that, which I really like.

My understanding is that the advantage of primary and secondary (and tertiary?) sets is the modifier itself, that is that every set has a base level (tertiary?) with maybe a few exceptions (tier 0?) and picking a set applies the primary/secondary modifier to those respective sets. Any buffs cast from others will then use the modifier from the highest tier that that buff can come from in the receivers build.

So no it's not a "double benefit", just two different ways of looking at the same benefit.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Do we have a tertiary heal type set or heal set that all of its powers require you to be very close to the character your using it on ?

We don't plan to make a dedicated healing tertiary set. If you are asking about sets with area effect healing buffs centered on the caster - there are variations of that type of power.

blacke4dawn wrote:

On another note, will support sets be able to cast on self as standard or will it be more like CoH where it was more of an exception?
That was one of the few things I really hated about CoH, making most of Defender's defensive powers unusable while soloing.

Yes. Though we can make exceptions where a power can only affect a friendly target if we need to.

Redlynne wrote:

So ... any commentary from the staff on the notion of the "9 vs 8 shares" idea for Team Aura Powers design?
Note that such a schema can be used more broadly ... like for Force Field Bubble (Barriers?) styled powersets, where the caster automatically derives more benefit from their continuously running Aura Powers than the other members of the Team do. Why? Because it's THEIR Power, and they have the most experience with ... themselves. Other people still benefit, but the caster gains a "double share" of the benefit ... once for keeping the Power "up" and once for being the caster of Power.

We don't use the 9 vs 8 shares. And you wouldn't see double the benefit the way you think you would as it is, even so, that is not the intent of the design to have area buffs always be better on the caster. Buffs for protection powers don't work the way you're thinking, again reference what I said above about the value of the power is modified by its placement in a set - primary > secondary > tertiary. And then when applied on a target it is further modified by the target's modifier, in this case, assuming the caster is a Guardian, they don't use Protection at all, and they use their own 'tertiary' modifier when being buffed. This is because virtually any buff from a Support Power (unless specified otherwise - which is rare) can also be cast on the caster. Casting a shield buff on a team member that affects all team members in the area - the caster counts as a team member.


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I just really want to thank

I just really want to thank Dr Tyche, Tannim and all the devs who have come here, answered questions, and explained things to the rest of us.
Other Devs would have just released an update. MWM devs are different...you love the game as much as we do.

THANK YOU for going the extra mile and reaching out to us. This is why I love this game and hitched my wagon to COT and not the others.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I just really want to thank Dr Tyche, Tannim and all the devs who have come here, answered questions, and explained things to the rest of us.
Other Devs would have just released an update. MWM devs are different...you love the game as much as we do.
THANK YOU for going the extra mile and reaching out to us. This is why I love this game and hitched my wagon to COT and not the others.

Hear hear! I second this heartfelt thanks.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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A Word on Powersets (Basic

A Word on Powersets (Basic Playstyles)

This is a bit long, for which I apologize...

Protection:

Invulnerability: There seems to be a dearth of actual healing in the launch game. Is this going to seriously inhibit Invulnerability's efficacy?
"Indestructible", the tier 4, doesn't seem as though it might play nicely with Tactical Combat, or Massively Melee, as both also depend upon Momentum as a mechanic. Can you address this?

Solid Form: If the primary mechanic is "Not Moving", are movement effects going to interfere with the T3 "Stand Fast"? Such as: Teleportation, the SS T7 "Mighty Lunge", or even rotation in position (without stepping)?

Super Agility: Redlynne already discussed cascading failure of the Super Reflexes set via the RNG in another thread, but are there mechanisms in place to prevent this for Super Agility? In our old game, my Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper was either SUPER or DIRT, and sometimes both during the same encounter!

Grit: The T9, Total Determination, would seem to potentially not play nice with Tactical Combat or Massively Melee because of Momentum issues (and perhaps even the Kinetic Melee T9, Rage Mastery, and Toggle Switches). What mechanisms are provided to prevent this?

Atrophic Aura: The AOE set? Do Recoil, Reflection, and Deflection contribute to the caster's Momentum?

Are Power Recovery, Resistance, Defense, Subtraction, and Evasion Augments able to be slotted for Protection Sets? Because I feel they need to be from the get-go, rather than having to wait for crafted Augments with Refinement slots.

I am extremely curious (and concerned) as to how Stalwarts will gain and attain aggro, particularly to pick up stragglers/runners outside of melee range. Anything you can reveal at this time?

Melee:

Tactical Combat: Effects both depend upon and drain Momentum? Is there the potential for this set to drain Momentum sufficiently that defenses shut down/reset (Invuln T4, Grit T9)? The Rage Mastery also looks potentially problematic when paired with any of these.
I'm also still a bit confused about the differences between "main combo effects", and "granted combo effects". When they kick in, and what the thresh-holds might be?

Fighting Prowess: Are these Defense buffs only? Or are there Evasion/Subtraction/Resistance buffs as well?

Kinetic Melee: The ST set? The "Full Force Impact" T9, doesn't seem as though it would play nicely with Invulnerability, Grit, or Rage via Momentum.

Super Strength: "Mighty Lunge" will not even be granted light physical damage? Again, what is considered "movement" via Solid Form?

Massive Melee: if this set builds momentum very slowly, is it not disadvantaged damage and attack-chain-wise even if it is AoE focused? Will it be difficult to use with Invulnerability or Grit?

Will Switch Toggles (Switches) be particularly difficult to utilize for Melee sets that depend heavily upon momentum (and vice/versa) because of a reduced power recovery pool?

Is there a Critical Hit mechanic for Enforcers as there was for Scrappers, or is this meant to be handled via Masteries?

Ranged Sets:

Force Blast: Is "Force Torrent" and actual Repel, or does it use KD/KB

Lethality: Will Pierce as a mechanic really be sufficiently damaging to make it worth taking, especially vs. higher level bosses?

Vampiric Blast: What is the typical range for enemy defeats which grant heals?

Atrophic Blast: AoE set? Looking forward to a potential flamethrower effect while moving.

Psychic Blast: Will the vulnerability to subsequent Psychic Blast attacks be extended to blasts from other Psychic players? To Psychic Control effects?

Support Sets:

Preservation: Will "Physical Preservation's" Recoil effect contribute to character Momentum?

Barrier Generation: Again, will "Protective Barrier's" Reflection effect contribute to character Momentum?
Is "Insulated Shell's" Knock effect a KD, or KB? Is this customizable?

Strategy: Will Support Augments be slottable for Recharge at Launch?

Devices: Is "Protection Drone's" Evasion/Defense/Subtraction/Resistance based on the casters'? Does "Upgrade Device" have a duration significant enough to initiate several powers?

Vampiric Emanation: This set has 2 'Sneak Peek' powers that state: "Should the affected enemy be defeated within range, you and your group will receive...." Within range of the caster? Is this AoE-centered on caster? Please clarify.

Control Sets:

Gravity Control: ST. More about Gravity Wells, please?

Psychic Control: ST. Do Psychic Controls from other casters/sources provide additional damage?

Power Control: Kinetic/Lightning Blast Defenders were the closest CoX was able to come to an actual 'Sapper', yet it still wasn't a particularly viable mechanic. How do you propose to make this powerset viable as a mechanic, particularly with no current ranged damage set effecting power recovery?

Illusions: Are "Illusionary Images" able to be buffed? I realize that Protective buffs are irrelevant, but can they be buffed for Accuracy, Damage, etc.? Does the damage from "Illusory Images" contribute to the casters' Momentum? Will Reflection, Recoil, and Deflection effects work on them?

Force Control: Will powers such as Reflective Barrier and Obstruction be dismissible by the caster?

I am super-psyched about the information provided thus-far, and am eagerly anticipating the 2nd-chance fundraiser (I missed the Kickstarter). I lurked the CoX forums for years, and have been lurking CoT for 2+ years now, and I think you're doing it RIGHT, folks! Keep up the good work (but get the 2nd-Chance going so you are able to hire more people and do it faster)!

WORD

Sincerely,

Mons

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

My understanding is that the advantage of primary and secondary (and tertiary?) sets is the modifier itself, that is that every set has a base level (tertiary?) with maybe a few exceptions (tier 0?) and picking a set applies the primary/secondary modifier to those respective sets. Any buffs cast from others will then use the modifier from the highest tier that that buff can come from in the receivers build.
So no it's not a "double benefit", just two different ways of looking at the same benefit.

Tannim222 wrote:

We don't use the 9 vs 8 shares. And you wouldn't see double the benefit the way you think you would as it is, even so, that is not the intent of the design to have area buffs always be better on the caster. Buffs for protection powers don't work the way you're thinking, again reference what I said above about the value of the power is modified by its placement in a set - primary > secondary > tertiary. And then when applied on a target it is further modified by the target's modifier, in this case, assuming the caster is a Guardian, they don't use Protection at all, and they use their own 'tertiary' modifier when being buffed. This is because virtually any buff from a Support Power (unless specified otherwise - which is rare) can also be cast on the caster. Casting a shield buff on a team member that affects all team members in the area - the caster counts as a team member.

Seems my understanding was wrong, it is "double benefit". First by that casters tier and then by the receivers tier.

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Mons in super agility's

Mons in super agility's description it says "Thankfully, this power set comes with some extra tools to handle that immediate hit." Which should hopefully negate the dirt eating a bit.

And for martial arts one of the melee powers grant defense buffs which should also help with that.

And tertiary powersets will also help.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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First: Excellent question

First: Excellent questions and observations Mons.
Second, I picked up on one question in particular and thought to add my two cents on it here:

Mons wrote:

Grit: The T9, Total Determination, would seem to potentially not play nice with Tactical Combat or Massively Melee because of Momentum issues (and perhaps even the Kinetic Melee T9, Rage Mastery, and Toggle Switches). What mechanisms are provided to prevent this?

I don't see an issue with this. Our momentum is a finite resource, although we can fill it up continuously, it is expected that we can drain it even faster than we can possibly fill it. As a result, I would expect a Gladiator or Bulwark (both of whom have a melee and a defense power set) to have to make a choice whether or not they want to maximize their survivability or maximize their damage out. I think it is perfectly acceptable to put that decision in the hands of the player and not enable them to use both offensive and defensive momentum -based powers unless they have augmented and refined those powers' momentum costs.

Also competing for our momentum use: [utrl=https://cityoftitans.com/content/when-fist-meets-face-momentum]Reserves[.... These are basically the same things as Inspirations from CoX, except that we get reserves when unused momentum bleeds off.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Mons in super agility's description it says "Thankfully, this power set comes with some extra tools to handle that immediate hit." Which should hopefully negate the dirt eating a bit.

Right. I believe it was Tannim222 who stated that momentum will build for every attack evaded, or something like that, and this momentum will fuel a survivability buff for when the big hits do get through. I don't think we know how it will work exactly.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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My guess Illusionary Images

My guess Illusionary Images will work the same way phantom army got was any buffs that affect the power set and the power directly are the one that take effect.
IF you were under a accuracy boost at the time they were summoned they will get that accuracy if you were under a damage boost at the time of summing they would get the damage boost.
They cant be affected by anything good or bad after they have been summoned.

IT would be operatives bonus for something that's not fulfilling an operators roll or the pet bonus if there is one.

Just like its predecessor in the old game.

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

My guess Illusionary Images will work the same way phantom army got was any buffs that affect the power set and the power directly are the one that take effect.

Yeah ... they could ... but that would be BORING.

A much more interesting option would be to Copy Members Of The Current Team at random, and have the game AI "play" those copies (probably inexpertly, but that's kinda the point, since you don't want the AI to play the game better than the Players, usually). If there are fewer PC's available than there are Illusionary Images being made, just make extra copies of the PC(s) on the present Team. This means that if you're soloing and you cast 3 Illusionary Images, well ... now there's FOUR of You running around creating mayhem, havoc and confusion. If you're playing on a full Team of 8 PCs and you cast 3 Illusionary Images, then the Illusions will (each!) randomly decide which members of the present Team to copy ... meaning that additional duplicates of a single Team member are possible (albeit less likely).


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Godling wrote:
My guess Illusionary Images will work the same way phantom army got was any buffs that affect the power set and the power directly are the one that take effect.
Yeah ... they could ... but that would be BORING.
A much more interesting option would be to Copy Members Of The Current Team at random, and have the game AI "play" those copies (probably inexpertly, but that's kinda the point, since you don't want the AI to play the game better than the Players, usually). If there are fewer PC's available than there are Illusionary Images being made, just make extra copies of the PC(s) on the present Team. This means that if you're soloing and you cast 3 Illusionary Images, well ... now there's FOUR of You running around creating mayhem, havoc and confusion. If you're playing on a full Team of 8 PCs and you cast 3 Illusionary Images, then the Illusions will (each!) randomly decide which members of the present Team to copy ... meaning that additional duplicates of a single Team member are possible (albeit less likely).

I'd rather them copy my character at least for the one I have in mind. But having a few options for it would be nice.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I did forget something they

I did forget something they were susceptible to taunts.
my choice use the pet designer and make Valkyries instead of people in white bondage outfits.

Its not Illusions its part of my cosmic power.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I just really want to thank Dr Tyche, Tannim and all the devs who have come here, answered questions, and explained things to the rest of us.
Other Devs would have just released an update. MWM devs are different...you love the game as much as we do.
THANK YOU for going the extra mile and reaching out to us. This is why I love this game and hitched my wagon to COT and not the others.

Hear, hear also Cyke. It's easy to forget how lucky we are in this.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Mons wrote:
Mons wrote:

A Word on Powersets (Basic Playstyles)
This is a bit long, for which I apologize...

This is a long list, apology accepted ; - )

Mons wrote:

Protection:
Invulnerability: There seems to be a dearth of actual healing in the launch game. Is this going to seriously inhibit Invulnerability's efficacy?

You haven't seen all the powers from all the sets. Even so, there aren't many direct heal powers at launch. Then again, if you look at the over all powers from the old game, comparatively, there weren't many direct heals then either. Also, everyone has native health regeneration and potential access to reserves.

Mons wrote:

"Indestructible", the tier 4, doesn't seem as though it might play nicely with Tactical Combat, or Massively Melee, as both also depend upon Momentum as a mechanic. Can you address this?

Momentum isn't "split up", it is a single resource. If you have a power from one power set that uses Momentum, a Mastery that uses Momentum, and an entire Power Set that uses Momentum, they all benefit from the current value of the Momentum meter.

Mons wrote:

Solid Form: If the primary mechanic is "Not Moving", are movement effects going to interfere with the T3 "Stand Fast"? Such as: Teleportation, the SS T7 "Mighty Lunge", or even rotation in position (without stepping)?

Yes, any movement that is tracked - the player character changing location will interfere with the Solid Form mechanic. Rotating in place, you don't spin like a top exactly, there will be slight movement, but small movements don't automatically cancel the Solid Form mechanic, the decrease it. Large movements, or consistent movement over time will decrease it.

Mons wrote:

Super Agility: Redlynne already discussed cascading failure of the Super Reflexes set via the RNG in another thread, but are there mechanisms in place to prevent this for Super Agility? In our old game, my Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper was either SUPER or DIRT, and sometimes both during the same encounter!

If you look at the Super Agility's Tier 3, it gains a Defense buff for every evaded melee attack, should that buff be built up enough, if a melee attack gets through, then it does less damage. However, the down fall of an Evasion heavy set is sudden burst damage getting through. Also, in our to-hit system, Evasion is scored against Accuracy, the greater the evasion over Accuracy, the less chance of a hit occurring, not only that, but the probable crit range is also reduced. When you look at evading over time vs. reducing hits over time, our system is set up so at base value, they are comparative. You dodged 9 out of 10 attacks taking 100 damage on attack ten. You were hit 10 our of 10 times reducing damage by 90%, taking 10 damage for each, totaling 100 damage (this is a super basic example, doesn't count regen, etc, but it gets the point across).

Mons wrote:

Grit: The T9, Total Determination, would seem to potentially not play nice with Tactical Combat or Massively Melee because of Momentum issues (and perhaps even the Kinetic Melee T9, Rage Mastery, and Toggle Switches). What mechanisms are provided to prevent this?

The power is intentionally designed to not play nice with effects benefiting from higher Momentum values. The choice comes down to, do I want to have a lot of sustainability, or keep up my offensive capability?

Mons wrote:

Atrophic Aura: The AOE set? Do Recoil, Reflection, and Deflection contribute to the caster's Momentum?

Momentum requires you to actively attack (any power that you activate, offense, controls, debuffs) or that you were attacked and were either hit or avoided the attack. These effects have no activation component (other than turning the power on initially in the case of Atrophic Aura's power - which won't build momentum itself). Deflection differs slightly in that it will only deflect if there is a selected target, but you aren't activating the deflection like a power by clicking power icon, the deflection automatically occurs if you have a deflection effect as part of a power.

Mons wrote:

Are Power Recovery, Resistance, Defense, Subtraction, and Evasion Augments able to be slotted for Protection Sets? Because I feel they need to be from the get-go, rather than having to wait for crafted Augments with Refinement slots.

Power Recovery is a Refinement. You basic Augments don't come with Refinement Sockets. That is where crafting or dealing in the market come in.

Mons wrote:

I am extremely curious (and concerned) as to how Stalwarts will gain and attain aggro, particularly to pick up stragglers/runners outside of melee range. Anything you can reveal at this time?

Everyone generates their own threat which is modified by Archetype, distance to target, and attacking the target. If you looking at how to Taunt, look to the Mastery Powers for Stalwarts. Taunt itself is a control effect, which is also non-binary.

Mons wrote:

Tactical Combat: Effects both depend upon and drain Momentum? Is there the potential for this set to drain Momentum sufficiently that defenses shut down/reset (Invuln T4, Grit T9)? The Rage Mastery also looks potentially problematic when paired with any of these.
I'm also still a bit confused about the differences between "main combo effects", and "granted combo effects". When they kick in, and what the thresh-holds might be?

The Momentum triggered effects that end up draining Momentum can potentially cost you all of your Momentum. Again, this a a cost / benefit decision on the player. Now that I'm at this (combo effect) is available, do I use this power to activate it, and if it occurs, I'll lose all my momentum? Or do I not use that power for that combo effect and use another instead? But if I do use it, the pay off is worth it...

Mons wrote:

Fighting Prowess: Are these Defense buffs only? Or are there Evasion/Subtraction/Resistance buffs as well?

Fighting Prowess' set mechanic is providing a Defense buff.

Mons wrote:

Kinetic Melee: The ST set? The "Full Force Impact" T9, doesn't seem as though it would play nicely with Invulnerability, Grit, or Rage via Momentum.

See my previous statements regarding cost / benefit decisions.

Mons wrote:

Super Strength: "Mighty Lunge" will not even be granted light physical damage? Again, what is considered "movement" via Solid Form?

No, it doesn't do damage. I already answered what counts as movement.

Mons wrote:

Massive Melee: if this set builds momentum very slowly, is it not disadvantaged damage and attack-chain-wise even if it is AoE focused? Will it be difficult to use with Invulnerability or Grit?

AoE Focused only means it offers more AoE abilities than other Focused Playstyles. It does have single target attacks as well. When you are attacked by enemies, you gain Momentum as well.

Mons wrote:

Will Switch Toggles (Switches) be particularly difficult to utilize for Melee sets that depend heavily upon momentum (and vice/versa) because of a reduced power recovery pool?

They do add difficulty to managing your Power Resources and hence, heavily attacking to build Momentum as a resource, yes. Only in that it is easier to manage the Power Resource when the resource meter itself isn't reduced.

Mons wrote:

Is there a Critical Hit mechanic for Enforcers as there was for Scrappers, or is this meant to be handled via Masteries?

If you are asking for Enforcers to have a better crit rate than standard, then yes, this is found in certain Mastery Powers.

Mons wrote:

Force Blast: Is "Force Torrent" and actual Repel, or does it use KD/KB

It is a Repel effect it does not use a knock effect.

Mons wrote:

Lethality: Will Pierce as a mechanic really be sufficiently damaging to make it worth taking, especially vs. higher level bosses?

Yes.

Mons wrote:

Vampiric Blast: What is the typical range for enemy defeats which grant heals?

Range of the attack.

Mons wrote:

Atrophic Blast: AoE set? Looking forward to a potential flamethrower effect while moving.

Mons wrote:

Psychic Blast: Will the vulnerability to subsequent Psychic Blast attacks be extended to blasts from other Psychic players? To Psychic Control effects?

It is a damage buff applied on any controlled target regardless of the source of the control.

Mons wrote:

Preservation: Will "Physical Preservation's" Recoil effect contribute to character Momentum?
Barrier Generation: Again, will "Protective Barrier's" Reflection effect contribute to character Momentum?

Answered previously, no.

Mons wrote:

Is "Insulated Shell's" Knock effect a KD, or KB? Is this customizable?

No. It only does knock back.

Mons wrote:

Strategy: Will Support Augments be slottable for Recharge at Launch?

Recharge is not an Augment it is a Refinement, and yes, you will have the potential to earn get Refinements at launch.

Mons wrote:

Devices: Is "Protection Drone's" Evasion/Defense/Subtraction/Resistance based on the casters'?

Protection Drone only provides a Defense buff. I'm not sure what you mean if it is based on the casters'. The base value of the buff is determined if it a primary, secondary, or tertiary.

Mons wrote:

Does "Upgrade Device" have a duration significant enough to initiate several powers?

You can only apply an upgrade for 1 Device power at a time.

Mons wrote:

Vampiric Emanation: This set has 2 'Sneak Peek' powers that state: "Should the affected enemy be defeated within range, you and your group will receive...." Within range of the caster? Is this AoE-centered on caster? Please clarify.

The buffs are centered on the caster as long as the defeated target is within the attack range.

Mons wrote:

Gravity Control: ST. More about Gravity Wells, please?

The Gravity Well mechanic is described sufficiently in the Zero G description. The description in Fluctuate Gravity gives an example of how a target caught in a Gravity Well can be affected with another effect.

Mons wrote:

Psychic Control: ST. Do Psychic Controls from other casters/sources provide additional damage?

Yes.

Mons wrote:

Power Control: Kinetic/Lightning Blast Defenders were the closest CoX was able to come to an actual 'Sapper', yet it still wasn't a particularly viable mechanic. How do you propose to make this powerset viable as a mechanic, particularly with no current ranged damage set effecting power recovery?

The improved value of effects is determined by the total value of the power recovery debuff applied on the target. They are not determined by the actual value of the power meter itself.

Mons wrote:

Illusions: Are "Illusionary Images" able to be buffed? I realize that Protective buffs are irrelevant, but can they be buffed for Accuracy, Damage, etc.? Does the damage from "Illusory Images" contribute to the casters' Momentum? Will Reflection, Recoil, and Deflection effects work on them?

You can improve the power through Augments / Refinement socketing. The attacks generated by the images is not the caster's attacks and does not count toward it's momentum.

Mons wrote:

Force Control: Will powers such as Reflective Barrier and Obstruction be dismissible by the caster?

No, the constructs have a fixed duration within the Short duration timer range.


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Tannim is the mastery update

Tannim is the mastery update from 2014 the most recent one or is one more recent to it ?

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Mons, you are after my own

Mons, you are after my own heart. I'm gonna need a MIDS.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Tannim is the mastery update from 2014 the most recent one or is one more recent to it ?

It is the most recent.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Tannim is the mastery update from 2014 the most recent one or is one more recent to it ?
It is the most recent.

How major an effect will the options of say Sentinel, Hunter, Partisan etc have on how your power sets act do they cause any effects to them ? or is it just masteries that will effect them ?

Would a Ranger say be able to strengthen anything but their primary power set through the subtypes or masteries ?

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:
Tannim is the mastery update from 2014 the most recent one or is one more recent to it ?
It is the most recent.
How major an effect will the options of say Sentinel, Hunter, Partisan etc have on how your power sets act do they cause any effects to them ? or is it just masteries that will effect them ?
Would a Ranger say be able to strengthen anything but their primary power set through the subtypes or masteries ?

A Mastery Power affects how you play the character as a whole. There will be Archetypes using Mastery Powers that have a lot of synergy between their primary and / or secondary set choices, and some with less synergy but still provide a useful benefit. Mastery Powers don't specify "only works on primary power sets x, y, z, and secondary sets a, b, c.


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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I just really want to thank Dr Tyche, Tannim and all the devs who have come here, answered questions, and explained things to the rest of us.
Other Devs would have just released an update. MWM devs are different...you love the game as much as we do.
THANK YOU for going the extra mile and reaching out to us. This is why I love this game and hitched my wagon to COT and not the others.

I SECOND THIS

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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Is it at all possible to call

Is it at all possible to call kinetic melee, vampiric melee instead? People won't really get why it's called kinetic unless they play CoX and it really is more in theme with the rest of the Vampiric sets, what with both the "Taking from your opponents and giving to yourself" mechanics and the fact that it deals exotic damage.

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Looking over the power lists

Looking over the power lists one more time, I find myself wondering if an Operator with Power or Force for a Primary, Vampiric Emanation for a Secondary, a couple of blasts and protection powers from Tertiaries, and the Oppression Mastery (locked down foes take more damage) could be used to make a character similar to a Warshade in playstyle.

Hmm...

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I have never seen such a

I have never seen such a prolific use of the word 'medial' in a non-medical context before.
It seems that this is a very precise terminology for generically describing powers. Was this done intentionally? Is MWM shooting over the medial reading comprehension levels of the general public (i.e. the people that are going to have to figure out how to play your game)?

blacke4dawn
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Is it at all possible to call kinetic melee, vampiric melee instead? People won't really get why it's called kinetic unless they play CoX and it really is more in theme with the rest of the Vampiric sets, what with both the "Taking from your opponents and giving to yourself" mechanics and the fact that it deals exotic damage.

Ehm... the two Kinetic Melee powers shown deal physical damage.

Also it seems Kinetic Melee lacks a (the?) defining feature from the currently show Vampiric powers, the debuff that has an on-defeat effect. To me it looks to be closer to Power Control than the Vampiric sets, even though they affect different attributes (damage vs. resource).

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

notears wrote:
Is it at all possible to call kinetic melee, vampiric melee instead? People won't really get why it's called kinetic unless they play CoX and it really is more in theme with the rest of the Vampiric sets, what with both the "Taking from your opponents and giving to yourself" mechanics and the fact that it deals exotic damage.
Ehm... the two Kinetic Melee powers shown deal physical damage.
Also it seems Kinetic Melee lacks a (the?) defining feature from the currently show Vampiric powers, the debuff that has an on-defeat effect. To me it looks to be closer to Power Control than the Vampiric sets, even though they affect different attributes (damage vs. resource).

Oh... well... that's embarrassing....

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

I have never seen such a prolific use of the word 'medial' in a non-medical context before.
It seems that this is a very precise terminology for generically describing powers. Was this done intentionally? Is MWM shooting over the medial reading comprehension levels of the general public (i.e. the people that are going to have to figure out how to play your game)?

Throws me off! I wish they'd go with "medium" or "moderate", since i'm familiar with medial-lateral terminology.

BUT, that's the thing, we're familiar with the medical version. I think most would see "med-" and know it's somewhere between high and low.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
I have never seen such a prolific use of the word 'medial' in a non-medical context before.
It seems that this is a very precise terminology for generically describing powers. Was this done intentionally? Is MWM shooting over the medial reading comprehension levels of the general public (i.e. the people that are going to have to figure out how to play your game)?
Throws me off! I wish they'd go with "medium" or "moderate", since i'm familiar with medial-lateral terminology.
BUT, that's the thing, we're familiar with the medical version. I think most would see "med-" and know it's somewhere between high and low.

At the time I was developing the lexicon for our descriptive terminology I was told to avoid if at all possible or minimize as much as possible any terms used from the old game. It was also explicitly stated to avoid using the term ‘median’ for this particular description.

Because of these restrictions, I had to be creative. While I too am familiar with the medical usage of medial due to mu background in medical insurance and billing, I went with a broader definition: relating to or situated in or extending toward the middle

Which is quite apt since the value has a range and is not an exact value between Light and Strong value ranges.


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Our devs are smarter than

Our devs are smarter than your devs! Neener-neener-...

Ahem. Right. Carry on, then.

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A vast vocabulary of shades

A vast vocabulary of shades of meaning is so useful! I wish I could be paid for mine, except, even now, I sometimes don't have the words for what I want to say.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

At the time I was developing the lexicon for our descriptive terminology I was told to avoid if at all possible or minimize as much as possible any terms used from the old game. It was also explicitly stated to avoid using the term ‘median’ for this particular description.

If the word 'medium' or 'median' is treading on the lexicon of the previous game, I think there are going to be a bajilion other words used in City of Heroes that will have to be substituted. Starting with the words 'the', 'buff, 'attack' and 'cone'.

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The problem with "median" is

The problem with "median" is that it has an exact meaning in a statistical context (i.e. the exact middle element of a sorted set), which players could logically believe was the intended meaning.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Right, Median is a noun, not

Right, Median is a noun, not an adjective.

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Fireheart

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
At the time I was developing the lexicon for our descriptive terminology I was told to avoid if at all possible or minimize as much as possible any terms used from the old game. It was also explicitly stated to avoid using the term ‘median’ for this particular description.
If the word 'medium' or 'median' is treading on the lexicon of the previous game, I think there are going to be a bajilion other words used in City of Heroes that will have to be substituted. Starting with the words 'the', 'buff, 'attack' and 'cone'.

This is a 4 year old argument at this point. One I’d rather not have to rehash. It’ll give me a twitch. It is what it is at this point.


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I can understand the need to

I can understand the need to try to distance the language as far away from other games as possible. That said, calling the damage categories things like "light, medium, and heavy" doesn't seem like something that could be copyrighted by anyone. I'm no law expert though.

And to respond to Fireheart, can't any noun be turned into an adjective through usage? I mean, a chicken hawk is not a chicken, it's a type of hawk. An onion bagel is a bagel with bits of onion on it, not an onion. Can't we define the "median value range" of a data set as that value range which is equal to the median or as close as necessary for our purposes?

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