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Discuss - How it Works: Powerset Design

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Pyromantic
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Power Set Augments Sockets for Primary and Secondary Sets take Augments which affect only the powers in that set.
The example we gave in our update was a partial damage type change. But it can be anything that works for the set. A Protection Set may have an Aug for improving all resistance of the active powers in a set (just an example, may not be a literal thing).
Tertiary Sets get Global Set Sockets - these Augs apply a global buff to the character.
I'll correct myself from earlier (it was late), the total number of possible Tertiary Powers is 19, but there is a limit to the total number of Tertiary Sets that can be accessed which is 5 - this may change to 4 given testing. Tertiary Sets carry Global Augment Sockets instead of Power Set Augment Sockets. The Augs socketed into these global sockets apply the bonus to the entire character.

I'm taking from this and your earlier posts that one of the major build questions for a character will be how "wide" to take it. Devote all your powers to primary, secondary and a single tertiary and you can access all of those relatively strong powers. Open up more tertiaries, however, and you forego some powers from your primary and secondary in favour of having more pools to choose from and the opportunity to slot more global augments.

I will also add that the example of a power set augment that changes damage type while another increases all resistances powers sounds somewhat like you choose between being able to adhere to a concept or just getting more power. I'm sure this is something you've already addressed internally and there is a whole load of testing to go, but I also think it's very important that players don't feel mechanically punished for going after a concept. Perhaps that won't be the case at all; perhaps damage type diversity becomes a significant benefit in itself, depending on how resistances work.

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I have no doubt that among
Radiac wrote:

This raises, once again, the age old problem of "equal power level" generally means "basically no different". In order for different Augments to actually be different, it's probably going to be true that some are better than others. I think the best system is one that has more options than needed, but different best options for different types of characters. That's tricky to do well.

I have no doubt that among any "group" of things there's always going to be some that are considered more universally "better" than others.

I'm just hoping when it comes to augments that players will have an actual choice among several (or even many) "beneficial" options so that it doesn't become a de facto "no-brainer" which one to plug in. This doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be equally "powerful" - each could offer fundamental tactical options that forces players to play with the powersets in radically different ways that are all equally viable.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Augments improves effects

Augments improves effects that affect the destination. If it is an attack that does damage, debuff, and a control you coulf improve any of those, as welll as area improvements (the area size is part of the destination). A buff like a protection power might have have you decide between improving resistance or healing.

Refinements improve the originator of the power, stuff like accuracy, range, recharge, power recovery, etc...

You only can apply a total of 4 Aug sockets per power (including your powers' base socket). Your standard Aug has no Ref sockets. Better, crafted Augs come with 1,2, or 3 Ref sockets.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Augments improves effects that affect the destination. If it is an attack that does damage, debuff, and a control you coulf improve any of those, as welll as area improvements (the area size is part of the destination). A buff like a protection power might have have you decide between improving resistance or healing.
Refinements improve the originator of the power, stuff like accuracy, range, recharge, power recovery, etc...
You only can apply a total of 4 Aug sockets per power (including your powers' base socket). Your standard Aug has no Ref sockets. Better, crafted Augs come with 1,2, or 3 Ref sockets.

Further clarification is always welcome. Still things are going to boil down to people figuring out the "best" augments for each powerset (whatever qualities they provide that are deemed most useful to most people) and I still will be hoping there will be enough choices so that the ones that get used most often aren't considered "no-brainers" from a min/max point of view.

All the Devs have to do here is make sure that when it comes to plugging X augment into Y powerset that it doesn't become a "reflexively obvious" choice which one is the "best" to use. The game should force players to have to THINK about that choice from among several equally viable options without making you feel you could pick the "wrong" one and thus have a gimped build.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I now would assume that changing part of the damage type of a given power set would then be an upgrade in net damage output (vis a vis the new damage type be less resisted, etc than the old one, presumably).

Why are you baking in assumptions of an Upgrade (a vertical movement) instead of a Sidegrade (a horizontal movement) relative to the alternatives?


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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Let's not assume too much about Power Set Augments.

No, Red's pretty much got the general idea.

I'll stop doing that eventually ...


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In theory, in this

In theory, in this hypothetical situation I'm describing, and speaking strictly for myself here, I'd personally NOT use my Set Augment slot on a "change damage type sidegrade" augment when I COULD use it on a "global recharge rate buff" Augment because the recharge buffer provides a measurable increase in performance which the sidegrade does not. Or so I would assume, given the use of the word "sidegrade". Because an increase to any hard number stat is an UPgrade, as far as I can tell, while a "sidegrade" just changes one thing to something else and leaves you with all the same stat numbers at the end, right?

That choice, I assume, does NOT have any effect on the possible aesthetic choices available for the power set in question, right? Because if you're telling people "Look, you can either use the Set Augment Slot to change your set over to partial Cold damage in order to unlock the Snow Effects kit, OR you can just use a Recharge Rate accelerator in that slot and be more powerful, in terms of hard numbers" I think I know what 99% of people I know would choose. And in any event, that would be contrary to Aesthetic Decoupling, really, because you're giving up some amount of combat power that's available for the sake of making the power look different, which I was led to believe would not be a thing. also I think that's a horrible predicament to put players in. To have to choose between more combat efficiency or more desirable looking power effects.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
We will have Augments and Refinements, and basic crafting of those which are better than the standard versions.
We just won't have Augment and Refinement crafted sets at launch. Our limited resources permit only so much for us to get done for launch. Had we stated out with funding your stand MMO requires (100x our funding) and the full staff that would provide, there are many concessions we wouldn't have that we do right now in order to launch.
Our goal here is to get the base game out. Not even the full city or all character levels will be open. This isn't an excuse to not get more done with less, just the reality of curcumstances.
Launching a game at all will be equivalanet of climbing Mt. Everest with a set of basic werkend camping gear.
My comment is only a matter of wanting to make sure the game succeeds :) We saw what happened in CoH and a lack of gear like options appeared to be an issue.
CoT starting out at level 30 may make it okay, but I would think players would want gear like rewards sooner rather than later to keep playing.

Hopefully ALL of us are here because we're cheering for the game's success. However, I'd like to challenge the notion that an extensive loot system is "necessary" for that to happen.

I dread loot in games, and the Skinner boxes that MMOs build around their players with that loot. The system in CoH wasn't too bad; what goes on in other games still gives me nightmares.

Nonetheless, for several years I considered IOs too much of a pain to deal with. Certainly the thought of grinding for gear, i.e. spending lots of time in a GAME doing something odious on purpose, never occurred to me. Fortunately, I enjoyed playing the content in CoH enough that, in time, I could afford to slap together some multibillion-inf builds, and picked up Mids to help with that task. However, I enjoyed neither the market PvP, nor the crafting process, and promptly ignored both once my characters were properly buffed to the gills.

It would be simple to dismiss me as a freak, but many of the people in my SGs had similar outlooks. A majority never moved beyond generic IOs. Quite a few openly mocked the idea of loot in a supers game, where heroes shouldn't be stealing evidence, and most self-respecting villains would consider it beneath their dignity to pickpocket fallen foes.

I get that the ship has sailed, and there will be loot. I get that some people look forward to this idea. Just try to keep in mind that some of us CoH vets will be hoping that loot plays NO LARGER a role than it did in the old game.

Please make content that is fun to play for its own sake. If you have to bribe people with loot to play or replay your content, then I submit that you're doing something wrong. Be better than the majority of MMOs!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Here's a question that I

Here's a question that I think maybe might have something to do with this topic (hopefully?) and most importantly don't know the answer to because I only check on this project once every six months.

Will we be able to rename our powers? Aesthetic decoupling is nice, but if my Fireball of Awesomeness power is just named "Force Blast" that might be kind of a mood killer.

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I understand the desire for a

I understand the desire for a "loot-lite" game. Sometimes it is fun to just pick up and play something, like a toy car. It is already assembled and you can playnwith it right away.

Other people enjoy legos and will meticulously build large sets taking them hours or even days to put together.

We are aiming for something of a middle road. You can play the game with the most basic augments. For those that want to delve into expanding their characters' capabilities, or taking on higher difficulty settings, there will be crafting involved, or dealing within the auction house.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I understand the desire for a "loot-lite" game. Sometimes it is fun to just pick up and play something, like a toy car. It is already assembled and you can playnwith it right away.
Other people enjoy legos and will meticulously build large sets taking them hours or even days to put together.
We are aiming for something of a middle road. You can play the game with the most basic augments. For those that want to delve into expanding their characters' capabilities, or taking on higher difficulty settings, there will be crafting involved, or dealing within the auction house.

Thanks for the prompt response. Let me qualify my comment a bit.

While some of the people who disdained crafting in CoH did so over the complexity, my concern was mainly with thematic appropriateness. I play World in Flames, so complexity in games does not scare me. But complexity has to serve the greater purpose of making the game better simulate some aspect of its genre. So, adding rules for flying unicorns to a historical board game like WiF not only adds complexity for no added gain, it actually takes away from the whole point of the game.

"Pirates of the Burning Sea" absolutely needs loot. What else do pirates spend their time dreaming about?

A game about supers does not need loot. The superficially external "gear" that supers carry has all been bought with character points. Ultimately, it comes from within, and can be built in a cave from a box of scraps, because such characters are just that good.

Appropriate complexity can be added to a supers game with lore-friendly mechanics like reputations, accolades, and multiple specialization trees. These can be made arbitrarily complex and time-consuming to max out. The Incarnate system, despite its faults, was much more lore-friendly within the supers genre.

Again, I get that there will be loot. But how big a role it plays is still in your control. Please try to create the most genre-appropriate systems you can, and never use loot as a "reward" for completing less-that-fun content. I still recall a relevant "colorful" expression from an SG-mate about a bucket of poop...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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I'm hoping for a crafting

I'm hoping for a crafting system similar to the 'Refining' that was done in base-building. That way, ALL loot is valuable and can be made into something useful.

What I object to, is stuffing my bank-storage with dozens and hundreds of different Things, which might possibly be useful eventually. Dear gods, my GW2 storage has Thousands of different things, since I've raised at least one character to maximum in each Craft.

I want a (relatively) simple crafting system in this game and I don't want to be hoarding 'Luck Charms' or engaging in vicious price-wars on the Market, just to get enough critical parts to make my characters work properly. Instead, let me melt-down all of my junk-loot into basic components that I can then use to assemble the things I want. I'll sell my extras on the Market for a bit of IGC (are we calling it 'Ingenuity'?) and go back to Enjoying the Game, instead of wrestling with my inventory.

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We have taken great care with

We have taken great care with refards to the genre and implementing crafting into it.

I don't agree with the genre always stipulating that what thenharacter has they always came with necessarily. There are times where characters improve upon things, literally make new things they use from then on out, to making somethjng they use once, or a few times.

There is also something to be said that not only does the game must serve the genre but that the genre also be bent to work as a game. In this case, it id an mmo and progression beyond levels, be able to invest, partake, and affect anplayer driven economy serves many aspects of the mmo world for players. The hows and whys of the economy serves the characters.

Once we get to explaining crafting, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with what we have come up with.

I will say this, it is similar to the old game in function, but very different with regards to how we applied the function.


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Some people LIKE crafting,

Some people LIKE crafting, game economy, playing the market, kitting up their toons with the best gear, figuring out builds on MIDS, etc, even in a supers game.

I don't see any reason to take that joy away from those of us who like it for the sake of not bothering the people who don't like it. That stuff is the stuff fun MMO games are made of, for some of us. Those people who'd rather not bother with it can just not bleeping bother with it, right? The worst that happens there is that you get less IGC to throw around than the marketeers and worse gear than the gearheads, which shouldn't bother you because you didn't bother to go out and get that stuff. So you spend more time soloing or teaming or doing the stuff you actually like, albeit with less awesome gear and for less IGC earnings than some other people. That's more of what you want, right? You might have to keep your difficulty settings a little lower, maybe, than other people. You probably won't be as good in PVP. Or maybe you have to throw real world money at the problem to get decent at PVP, your call.

In both GW2 and CoX you could play the game just fine with second-best level gear and not bat an eyelash, and I expect that the difficulty slider will ensure that CoT is similar.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Some people LIKE crafting, game economy, playing the market, kitting up their toons with the best gear, figuring out builds on MIDS, etc, even in a supers game.

I spent as much time on MIDS and respecing as I did tweaking my costume and bio.

I'd guess my CoH time was spent about 1/3 actual gameplay, 1/3 tweaking costume and bio, 1/3 tweaking build on Mids and getting and respecing into new IO's.

Man I miss it.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I liked both aspects of the

I liked both aspects of the old game. I appreciated the fact that you could play the full game with nothing but the base enhancements, but then I also enjoyed "kitting out" a couple of my characters by delving into the crafting system. Unless you really wanted to fine-tune your stats you could safely ignore the crafting side of things. It sounds like this is what the CoT devs are shooting for, and it seems like the best of both worlds.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

But by the same token the "dirty little secret" of the game was that it was playable even if you didn't spend vast amounts of time in Mids'. Sure a "non-optimized" character might not have been a super-winner in PvP or you might not have been able to run +4/8 solo missions very well but for 98% of the game you would have been perfectly fine and with all due respect that's how most of the "unwashed masses" did in fact end up playing the game.

Really? While they may not have made the perfect OMG IO build, I found most people used them over the normal enhancements, and even more wanted the optimal build, at least on their main. They may not have wanted to work for them (some players hate any amount of work) or spend the time even planning on what to do, but I can say those who didn't want to plan themselves, often asked those of us willing to help.

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I still have a notebook full

I still have a notebook full of all the sets I wanted for all my characters. I don't think I ever fully kitted out any of my characters, so I guess you could say I was part of that 98%. But it was fun to have the goal of the perfect kit. And I think it was the goal that was important because it kept me coming back to play.


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Having the IOs with the set

Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I still have a notebook full of all the sets I wanted for all my characters. I don't think I ever fully kitted out any of my characters, so I guess you could say I was part of that 98%. But it was fun to have the goal of the perfect kit. And I think it was the goal that was important because it kept me coming back to play.

One of the great things about how CoH did it, was anyone could get the build they wanted, in any manner of content. They weren't limited to raids for instance, like other MMOs may require people to accomplish to get that optimal build.

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So you're saying that PvP in
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.

You feel that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

So you're saying that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.

Likely the KB resist they could get. :p

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.
You feel that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.

Because as I stated, the set bonuses made a difference. Playing in a PVP zone for a while you gain enemies that single you out, so maybe you need that added bonus resistance or added bonus to damage. It just elevated the game and sometimes made certain characters seem almost invincible which was a fun challenge.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
So you're saying that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.
Likely the KB resist they could get. :p

Yes! KB Resist was awesome, but also the perception. If you could max out and get perception bonus, you could sometimes catch stalkers. Same for stalkers, the more stealth you could stack and bonus on, the less blasters could catch you. :P

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.
You feel that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.
Because as I stated, the set bonuses made a difference. Playing in a PVP zone for a while you gain enemies that single you out, so maybe you need that added bonus resistance or added bonus to damage. It just elevated the game and sometimes made certain characters seem almost invincible which was a fun challenge.

Right... like I said you probably weren't ever SERIOUSLY playing PVP if you didn't bother to kit out your characters with good IO builds. But since realistically (and perhaps sadly) almost no one actually PVP'd regularly my "98% didn't regularly use anything like Mids' with their IOs" estimate is probably still relatively accurate.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I still have a notebook full of all the sets I wanted for all my characters. I don't think I ever fully kitted out any of my characters, so I guess you could say I was part of that 98%. But it was fun to have the goal of the perfect kit. And I think it was the goal that was important because it kept me coming back to play.

Goals in games are fine enough. I'm just saying people like us (who are weird enough to be regular forum posters) tend to "over-inflate" the importance of tools like Mid's. I'd bet 75% of all the people who ever played CoH didn't even know third-party tools like Mids' existed. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.
You feel that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.
Because as I stated, the set bonuses made a difference. Playing in a PVP zone for a while you gain enemies that single you out, so maybe you need that added bonus resistance or added bonus to damage. It just elevated the game and sometimes made certain characters seem almost invincible which was a fun challenge.
Right... like I said you probably weren't ever SERIOUSLY playing PVP if you didn't bother to kit out your characters with good IO builds. But since realistically (and perhaps sadly) almost no one actually PVP'd regularly my "98% didn't regularly use anything like Mids' with their IOs" estimate is probably still relatively accurate.

How do you know what I did and didn't do?

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Some people LIKE crafting, game economy, playing the market, kitting up their toons with the best gear, figuring out builds on MIDS, etc, even in a supers game.
I don't see any reason to take that joy away from those of us who like it for the sake of not bothering the people who don't like it. That stuff is the stuff fun MMO games are made of, for some of us. Those people who'd rather not bother with it can just not bleeping bother with it, right?

The central problem is that unless I have greatly misunderstood something, crafting will make one more powerful than one could be without it. If one's goal is to improve one's character, then crafting becomes difficult to avoid.

Yes, there is an illusion of choice. One can, as you suggest, just decide to suck. But who plays a game to suck?

The "choice," for some of us, is a bit like being offered a deal: "Eat a cockroach, and teleport past your everyday commute!" There are, without a doubt, people who enjoy eating cockroaches, and would jump at the opportunity. On the other hand, others would see the choice as something of a dilemma. Daily commutes being what they are, many would feel compelled to gag down the insects.

Mind you, I am not arguing against progression. Also, since CoT has made a promise to include loot, I am not arguing against loot, because that would be futile.

At this point, I'm just asking for the cockroaches not to be too large, since I expect to eat a lot of them before my characters can shine.

Maybe the miracle workers at MWM can make it a multiple choice: roaches, lasagna, OR ice cream for that same teleport. Now wouldn't THAT be something...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
I still have a notebook full of all the sets I wanted for all my characters. I don't think I ever fully kitted out any of my characters, so I guess you could say I was part of that 98%. But it was fun to have the goal of the perfect kit. And I think it was the goal that was important because it kept me coming back to play.
Goals in games are fine enough. I'm just saying people like us (who are weird enough to be regular forum posters) tend to "over-inflate" the importance of tools like Mid's. I'd bet 75% of all the people who ever played CoH didn't even know third-party tools like Mids' existed. ;)

I don't know. I was in a RP SG and while most didn't want to work towards the IO BUILD OF OMGNESS, they all knew of mids. I got the feeling (on Virtue) all knew of mids, even if not everyone would use it.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Because as I stated, the set bonuses made a difference. Playing in a PVP zone for a while you gain enemies that single you out, so maybe you need that added bonus resistance or added bonus to damage. It just elevated the game and sometimes made certain characters seem almost invincible which was a fun challenge.

To me it's another barrier for getting into PvP. In my experience, someone already has to be quite interested in PvP to be willing to a punching bag until they can get properly "equipped" to have a viable PvP character. Even if I were more interested in PvP I doubt it'd be in the cards to get my characters kitted for PvE and do it all again for PvP. The grind to get characters geared up is what ultimately burned me out on WoW, and that was when I had more free time. But then I'll admit that I never really understood the desire to seek challenge and then promptly collect the best gear in order to trivialize said challenge (and, for bonus points, complain that the game is "too easy").

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If CoT PvP is anything like

If CoT PvP is anything like CoH PvP, you won't have to worry, most of them where whiners anyways, who didn't realize, don't pvp in a open pvp zone and just assume everyone knew they were dueling :p Though hardcore PvPers are often the biggest whiners, so it may not be anything new to PvP :p

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*TWEET* Flag on the field!

*TWEET* Flag on the field! Okay, folks, people are saying thing other people aren't hearing and this is getting a bit messy.

There are things that we can't talk about because there's some missing structural underlay, and we can't talk about the structural underlay because you won't dig it till you see it in motion. I'm calling a 24 hour break here, okay?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVS1xoG1aBE
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At least, i hope people hear

At least, i hope people hear there will be a crafting system, an auction house and power slots. That's a good news :)
Are you sure we must wait one year ? ^^

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@Radiac, that makes me think
Radiac wrote:

This raises, once again, the age old problem of "equal power level" generally means "basically no different". In order for different Augments to actually be different, it's probably going to be true that some are better than others. I think the best system is one that has more options than needed, but different best options for different types of characters. That's tricky to do well.
I you drew up a bar graph of Set Augments with "effective powerfulness" on the horizontal axis and "number of different Set Augments available" on the vertical, I would hope that it is a graph that starts out low (few relatively low power Set Aguments) and rises to a plateau at the high end (a lot of relatively powerful Set Augment options on the high end, all of which are very close to achother in powerfulness). This is preferable to a bell curve in this case because JUST ONE "extra powerful" outlier on the high-side becomes a "right answer" while umpteen "meh" Augments on the low side ultimately get ignored and are not a problem.

That makes me think of Dota 2. For every character they have a set of items that are useful for them. And for the most part people always buy the same items every game. BUT, all of the items are good and are even better in a case by case basis. So depending on the characters you are playing against, you might need to get a physical or magic damage item, or a physical or magic defense item, or a stun/disorient item. I feel like they have a very balanced item list, more than anyone could need or even use during a match, but no matter what you go with, it makes your character stronger. I feel like as long as you treat all of the items the same in effectiveness, then people will use them. Like another person said, if you have an enhancement for a support that will give your bubbles 10 extra resistance, or you can play a true grit that can get an enhancement for an extra 300 damage on attacks, I think we all know what people will go with.

I actually prefer to play supports and I felt like CoX did a really good job of making support characters feel powerful. So as long as you can be just as powerful(in their own sort of way) as a support as you can as a control, or protection, etc, then everything will be fine.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Having the IOs with the set bonuses was crucial to PVP. I know not a lot of you PVP'ed but I can say from knowledge and experience, pretty much everyone had this. If we don't have these kinds of bonuses, PVP will not be as exciting as I hoped it would be.
You feel that PvP in CoH become more exciting with the invention system? Why is that? I'd have thought that whether nobody has set bonuses or everyone has set bonuses would amount to the same.
Because as I stated, the set bonuses made a difference. Playing in a PVP zone for a while you gain enemies that single you out, so maybe you need that added bonus resistance or added bonus to damage. It just elevated the game and sometimes made certain characters seem almost invincible which was a fun challenge.
Right... like I said you probably weren't ever SERIOUSLY playing PVP if you didn't bother to kit out your characters with good IO builds. But since realistically (and perhaps sadly) almost no one actually PVP'd regularly my "98% didn't regularly use anything like Mids' with their IOs" estimate is probably still relatively accurate.
How do you know what I did and didn't do?

I honestly don't really care what you personally did or didn't do as an individual in CoH. When I said "you" in this case it was the collective "you".

Anyway if you were one of the few who actually PVP'd regularly then you very likely used Mids' to get every last drop out of your builds. But since very conservatively (even by the estimates of the CoH Devs themselves) since only maybe 5-10% of the playerbase ever PVP'd at all (which meant much fewer REGULARLY PVP'd) I continue to guessimate with reasonable evidence that only a relative minority even KNEW about mids' much less used it regularly.

Brand X wrote:

I don't know. I was in a RP SG and while most didn't want to work towards the IO BUILD OF OMGNESS, they all knew of mids. I got the feeling (on Virtue) all knew of mids, even if not everyone would use it.

Saying ALL players on a server knew/did X, Y or Z is pretty unlikely no matter what subject you're talking about. I played on Virtue roughly 95% of the total time I played the entire game so I'd say based on that I remember it pretty well and I'd be shocked if even HALF the population of that server knew of (much less used) any outside third party tool of any kind to help them play the game. Mids' simply wasn't that "big a deal" to average players.

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I think most people knew of

I think most people knew of mids, and while like I said many didn't know how to use it, I know many had help from others for their builds, so they could strive for something. Players like to strive for something more than just "How many alts" :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I think most people knew of mids, and while like I said many didn't know how to use it, I know many had help from others for their builds, so they could strive for something. Players like to strive for something more than just "How many alts" :p

Again I have nothing against having "goals" in a MMO - I had two characters end up the game with more than 1390+ badges each. But also again I'd be shocked if more than half of the population knew/used anything like Mids'. Look originally I was saying 75% here so at least I'm trying to meet you "half-way" on this. I constantly ran across people who had no clue about it whenever the subject of "builds" would come up in-game.

You didn't need a third-party tool to obtain IO goals. I'm sure plenty of people collected/used IOs without Mids' well enough; the game wasn't -that- complicated after all. Only the hyper min-maxers would have ever cared about squeezing the last few percentage points out of a particular build.

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I personally saw CoH IOs as

I personally saw CoH IOs as one of the most enjoyable character customization aspects of that game...and I loved customization. Hopefully the CoT augment/refinement/global augment scheme offers me a similar ability to customize the whole character and each power.

For example, In CoH I could massively shift a blaster's playstyle by either focusing toward IO defensive set bonuses, or levels of recharge that allowed me to spam AoEs when the situation called for it, or simply amplify my blasting accuracy and damage while spending almost no endurance to fight. I could also dramatically shift the behavior and situational appeal of each high-tier power, from making it super-effective (but slow to recharge and endurance-intensive), to making it cheap and frequently available but with just the standard impact. This was especially true with controllers (where I could use IO sets to amplify the given powers of almost any set to be devastating against a single target, or a spawn of 16, but usually not both in one build).

In contrast, one of my family members stuck with SOs and the basic IOs I could craft. They were still very effective and enjoyed the combat, but couldn't do all the same tricks...and wouldn't have been able to even with IO sets. For all the criticism of "non-action" combat that a few (no one here) have directed at it, CoH combat was still full of interesting skill-based elements that creative min/max players could manipulate (AI/aggro behavior, LoS tricks, positioning/control timing, target switching/prioritization...).

If CoT can deliver that same degree of fun for both casual and min/max players - on the same team, even - then that's a big "successor" checkbox checked for me. I think it was a major reason why our culture was so open to PUGing and new players - we generally avoided segregation based on gear and skill, because the game's difficulty was built around the ease of SOs, but allowed crazy fun things to be accomplished via build customization - and all the learning, planning, and testing that went into it.

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PvP - wrong thread.

PvP - wrong thread.
IOs - wrong thread.

Not to be a &ick or anything 😆

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I played mostly on Triumph, I

I played mostly on Triumph, I would usually try to avoid going with other people's "Perfect builds" until I tried to make my own and see how well I could do. I would do that as long as possible until I hit a point where I felt I needed to make my character better and couldn't hit higher numbers in Mid's by myself. At that point I would look up other people's preferred builds and used them. I would say I probably used other peoples builds on two characters throughout my entire time. My guess would be that a lot of people knew about it but not too many people wanted to go through the trouble of getting it and messing around with it. I feel like it was more a case of just looking up screenshots and building directly off of that being a more common approach for people.

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As we know, everyone is wrong

As we know, everyone is wrong on the Internet (which is, of course, why we need to constantly try to correct them). However, this did make me think of a question related to character generation: how much of this information about a powerset will be available to us in CG? Will I have the option of looking up a set's mechanical theme and speed? That would help ensure that if I wanted to create a quick, scrappy fighter I wouldn't end up with a slow DoT power set.

P.S. All y'all need to get off my lawn.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

PvP - wrong thread.
IOs - wrong thread.
Not to be a &ick or anything 😆

Oh I wouldn't call you a &ick over this... just misguided.

This is a thread about powerset design in CoT. That means it's covering how powers are going to be implemented and balanced in all different types of scenarios in the game. Since things like IOs (which directly affected how powers worked) and PVP (a mode in the game that highlights the extreme cases of whether powers are in fact properly designed/balanced or not) I would easily consider both of those germane to the topic at hand, which again is how powersets (and powers in general) are going to be designed in CoT.

Basically if what you're talking about has anything to do with how powers are going to be affected or affect the game then it likely has a place in this thread.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

However, this did make me think of a question related to character generation: how much of this information about a powerset will be available to us in CG? Will I have the option of looking up a set's mechanical theme and speed? That would help ensure that if I wanted to create a quick, scrappy fighter I wouldn't end up with a slow DoT power set.

It's likely they'll provide a sort of in-game "summary sheet" for each powerset that'll give a quick overview of its relative theme and speed. That screen could provide a sentence or two worth of a general description and maybe even a few generic roleplay phrases that would help guide players how to play them.

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That's what I'd anticipate,

That's what I'd anticipate, as well. Bonus points if it provides some insight into available aesthetic options.

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Okay, okay, STOP.

Okay, okay, STOP.

This has gone completely off the rails. No, discussing augments vs IOs here IS derailing. More to the point, everybody is speculating and then arguing about their speculations. There are many right ways to balance such a system, there are many right ways to make a game. We have an Augments and Refinements update planned, it should be either the next (tech/art) one or the one after that, so you don't have a long wait before you'll be able to have this conversation properly. Please save all this for then, when it can mean something and be a productive conversation. Back to powers themselves please: that's what we (and you) are currently prepared to talk about.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Okay, okay, STOP.
This has gone completely off the rails. No, discussing augments vs IOs here IS derailing. More to the point, everybody is speculating and then arguing about their speculations. There are many right ways to balance such a system, there are many right ways to make a game. We have an Augments and Refinements update planned, it should be either the next (tech/art) one or the one after that, so you don't have a long wait before you'll be able to have this conversation properly. Please save all this for then, when it can mean something and be a productive conversation. Back to powers themselves please: that's what we (and you) are currently prepared to talk about.

Except you've only really given us a handful of powers to talk about and apparently they aren't individually interesting enough to keep a single thread like this continually hyper-focused on them. Sorry, just saying...

I understand it's generally "bad form" to start straying too far away from a thread's original topic but how augments vs IOs might affect powers is always going to a relevant topic to players of this game no matter which thread they get discussed on. If it angers you so much that us silly players aren't talking about exactly what you want us to talk about you could always lock this thread and we'll patiently wait for your specific Augments and Refinements update. *shrugs*

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Yet, there is a lot packed

Yet, there is a lot packed into those few powers. Only some of which has been discussed in this thread. There js a new form of power activation that thenold gsme never had, looknat how resistence is worded to work...there is more.


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Ok to help this get back on

Ok to help this get back on topic ive decided to have another look over the powers listed:

What we know -

-Damage types = Physical, Energy or Exotic
-We will see toggle based powers, actives and passives
-Cone attacks are featured
-24 Powers over 50 levels, 4 or 5 tertiary tree's etc
-Combo focused trees
-Timed Specific Toggle acts are featured for attacks to place them perfectly (skill based)
-All tree's branch at 3 and 7?

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23 power slots, not including

23 power slots, not including starter powers.
Also 3 mastery powers.

There is another toggle type you missed ;)


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For future consideration,

For future consideration, posting something that will prompt people to get back on the preferred topic would be more helpful than throwing up, "STOP".

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What's the point of internet

What's the point of internet forums if we aren't allowed to argue with each other ;P

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

-All tree's branch at 3 and 7?

Not branch, an exclusive choice at those tiers alone.

Branching would mean you had 2 paths to go down through at tier 3, and those would split again at tier 7 ending up in 4 different "top tier powers".

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yet, there is a lot packed into those few powers. Only some of which has been discussed in this thread. There js a new form of power activation that thenold gsme never had, looknat how resistence is worded to work...there is more.

*rereads the protection powers descriptions*
.
.
.
WTF is "subtraction"? And how is it different from "resistance"?

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Yet, there is a lot packed into those few powers. Only some of which has been discussed in this thread. There js a new form of power activation that thenold gsme never had, looknat how resistence is worded to work...there is more.
*rereads the protection powers descriptions*
.
.
.
WTF is "subtraction"? And how is it different from "resistance"?

It has been guessed that subtraction is a fixed amount and resistance is a percentage.

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Is it the toggle that auto

Is it the toggle that auto refreshes after you recover from a defeat? That is actually pretty cool. It gives you a way to revive and escape possibly.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Yet, there is a lot packed into those few powers. Only some of which has been discussed in this thread. There js a new form of power activation that thenold gsme never had, looknat how resistence is worded to work...there is more.
*rereads the protection powers descriptions*
.
.
.
WTF is "subtraction"? And how is it different from "resistance"?

confirmed & clarified by Tannim here:
https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129880#comment-129880

A number of other useful hints have been given regarding evade / defense / deflect / reflect in his posts after that one.

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KnightMask wrote:
KnightMask wrote:

Is it the toggle that auto refreshes after you recover from a defeat? That is actually pretty cool. It gives you a way to revive and escape possibly.

We calll it a toggled-switch. It stays in all the time, but its cost reduces you Power Meter by a fixed amount.

Scott Jackson wrote:

Radiac wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Yet, there is a lot packed into those few powers. Only some of which has been discussed in this thread. There js a new form of power activation that thenold gsme never had, looknat how resistence is worded to work...there is more.
*rereads the protection powers descriptions*
.
.
.
WTF is "subtraction"? And how is it different from "resistance"?
confirmed & clarified by Tannim here:https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129880#comment-129880
A number of other useful hints have been given regarding evade / defense / deflect / reflect in his posts after that one.

There is another difference as well.


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What's up with the scolding?

What's up with the scolding? lol

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What exactly does Physical,

What exactly does Physical, Energy and Exotic cover?

What would Toxic, Fire, and Cold be?

I'd think water would just be physical, more of a blunt force trauma sort of thing. However, fire and cold...toxic I'm guessing would be Exotic.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What exactly does Physical, Energy and Exotic cover?
What would Toxic, Fire, and Cold be?
I'd think water would just be physical, more of a blunt force trauma sort of thing. However, fire and cold...toxic I'm guessing would be Exotic.

I think those might literally be the damage types. Like ALL of the damage types, actually. The fire, electricity, ice etc is just graphics.

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Alternate activations.

Alternate activations.

How do those work? (Shift click? Right click? Other?)

Is only melee knock back/knock down going to have them?

Are we going to see enhancements that grant a power an alternate activation? (That would be super awesome. Less damage +effect for example, mass damage for all your power as another example.)

There's so much they could do with alternate activations, they could make some powers in essence two powers. Or have bananas effects for hella costs.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What would Toxic, Fire, and Cold be?

At a guess, I would say that Toxic is a Physical type. Toxic (as in poisons and poisoning, neurotoxins, biological diseases, etc.) relies on essentially Chemical Processes. Even things like corrosive acids rely on chemical processes of breaking molecular bonds. That means that they all act on explicitly physical matter.

Case in point ... can you use toxic poisons against an "ethereal" being such as a phantom, ghost or astral projection that has no "physicality" to it? I would argue that toxins should have no more effect on the insubstantial than punches, kicks swords or guns would have ... all of which I think we can agree would be Physical attacks.

Fire is essentially ... Plasma. It is therefore a form of Energy.
Cold is literally the ABSENCE of "free energy" ... and is therefore a sort of "negative energy" in opposition to Fire's "positive energy" means of inflicting damage. In either case, I would classify Fire and Cold BOTH as being Energy type. Likewise, I'd expect Radiation to fall under the Energy type (mainly) rather than the Exotic type.

An example of Exotic would, I presume be something like Psionics.
I'm sure that there are other things that would fall into the Exotic type bucket as well, such as "Life Energy" (despite having the word "energy" in the description) for lack of a better alternative example. In this case I'm thinking of what essentially amounts to "soul power" or even the "force of will" if you prefer ... things that aren't necessarily as close to being tangible (or necessarily tangible) effects. So thinks like "Life Draining" or "Soul Sucking" like we used to see from the Dark and Warshade powersets in City of Heroes would align more with Exotic in this instance than they would with Energy, necessarily. By the same token, I'd expect Necromancy to be Exotic typed rather than Energy typed.

Note that hybrids of these could certainly be possible, so Physical/Energy ... Energy/Exotic ... Exotic/Physcial. That way you can have telekinetic attacks be Exotic/Physical instead of just being purely Physical. You can have Radiation attacks that are Physical/Energy for blasts that do knockback, or are Energy/Exotic for blasts that debuff the things they hit.

Between the 3 single types and 3 dual types, you're basically looking at 6 possible combinations of damage sources, which honestly ought to be sufficient to our needs without getting cumbersome.

Not saying by any stretch that's what is actually being done ... just saying that if those are the Damage types we've got to work with, these are my assumptions for deciding which subgroups fall under the broad heading of the Physical, Energy and Exotic types.


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When it comes to damage type.

When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).

It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.

If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.
If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.

It's not. If you look at the power set descriptions, you can see that they specify a damage type.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.
If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.
It's not. If you look at the power set descriptions, you can see that they specify a damage type.

Oh ok, I see.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What exactly does Physical, Energy and Exotic cover?
What would Toxic, Fire, and Cold be?
I'd think water would just be physical, more of a blunt force trauma sort of thing. However, fire and cold...toxic I'm guessing would be Exotic.

Are you asking because you want to know? or are you asking to start a discussion?

Because if you want an answer, Fire, Cold and Toxic are just aesthetic and roleplay choices for whatever powerset you want, with the damage type provided by the power set you choose. (edit: yeah, what Project Hero said)


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It does, but powersets just

It does, but powersets just tell you how the powers operate and their damage type. Why it matters is beyond me. If I make a super strength/invulnerable character, but can make all his attacks -look- like fire, then he's doing fire damage. Physical fire damage.

There's no reason that any/all damage types can't be used for what you want them to be. Is there any reason at all why fire -must- be linked to any specific damage type? I can't think of a good reason beyond "because that's how games have trained us to think."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Is there any reason at all why fire -must- be linked to any specific damage type? I can't think of a good reason beyond "because that's how games have trained us to think."

That's not really true. People in hazardous occupations wear completely different safety gear when dealing with fire than they do when wrecking cars than they do when freezing than they do when handling acid.

But your first rhetorical question in the quote above is still valid. If there were such things as resistance to fire type damage, then there would be a reason to have fire type damage. But there aren't any, so yeah, as far as aesthetic coupling is concerned, it doesn't care what you roleplay your character to be. I wish it would, but it doesn't.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Now that that's all put to

Now that that's all put to rest (hopefully anyway) I still want to know more about alternative activations, how they function (as in how you do it), and how they can or will impact the game.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
What exactly does Physical, Energy and Exotic cover?
What would Toxic, Fire, and Cold be?
I'd think water would just be physical, more of a blunt force trauma sort of thing. However, fire and cold...toxic I'm guessing would be Exotic.
Are you asking because you want to know? or are you asking to start a discussion?
Because if you want an answer, Fire, Cold and Toxic are just aesthetic and roleplay choices for whatever powerset you want, with the damage type provided by the power set you choose. (edit: yeah, what Project Hero said)

I wanted to know what they were going to classify them as is all. However, I guess they'll just pick them based on the enemy or something?

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.
If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.

The damage types are Physical, Energy, and Exotic.

What you make thise look like doesn't affect the mechanics in any way what so ever. Making a physical attack look like electricity doesn't change the damage type. Damage types aren't customizable.

One possible way (of testing permits) is a partial damage type change by Power Set Augment being socketed.

Project_Hero wrote:

Now that that's all put to rest (hopefully anyway) I still want to know more about alternative activations, how they function (as in how you do it), and how they can or will impact the game.

Your main activation on a mouse is left click, alternate actication is right click. Optional pop-ups on mouse over can be clicked on for expanded details (or you could view details in the power screen).

Keybaord defaults are I beileve number by placement in the tray and then shift+number. But everything will be customizable of course.

Right now they are only used to change most knock down powers with a knock back switched by the alternate activation. Not all knock down powers can do this.


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Neato. Nice to know, and

Neato. Nice to know, and helpful to melee to have the option of not have guys flying all over the place (as fun as it is).

Oh, here's a question. It's been said with a respec you'll be able to change your secondary powerset is this just within type (from a support to another type of support) or to a different type of powerset completely (support to defense) once multiple secondary choices are available.

Not sure if it's been asked before or answered. I joined the forums years ago, but only started lurking more recently.

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One possible way that might

One possible way that might be explored (FAR FAR down the line), is this: instead of adding more mathematical 'crunch' to the powers side of things, you instead add "Minor Crunch" to the Aesthetic Decoupling system itself.

This is just an idea that just occured to me, so its messy as all hell. Bear with me:

What I imagine is adding a library that is only affected by datapoints from itself, and expresses itself in the form of a buff/debuff system, that the Hard Number 'Crunch' of the powers can then take advantage/disadvantage of.

Example:
Firey McFirePants has set his Atrophic Ranged Attack to the Fire Aesthetic.
He then faces off against the Mighty Ducketts, an Ice themed Villian group with Hockey gear.
Since the Aesthetic of the enemy is ice, and Firey's Aesthetic is fire, they oppose.

The first Calculation thats done is the Aesthetic......lets call it the Aesthetic Library, for sake of arguement.
In the Library, Fire does more damage against Ice (very simple set up for the example).
So, when their Library Volumes interact with each other, the Fire and Ice Aesthetics are taken into account, it is decided that fire gains a boon against ice, and ice would receive a bane, in the form of a debuff to its resistance to damage.

Once that gets settled out, the Hard Crunch kicks in....but whats this??? the Mighty Ducketts seem to have some form of Debuff on them for the space of this attack, making them more vulnerable to this attack! The Hard Crunch takes the debuff into account, and the entire attack plays out, now with extra damage done to the target, because of that Debuff.

this would play out for each attack, for the space of that attack. By making it a system connected to the Aesthetic instead of the damage power, you can self contain each case, so that the system only grants a debuff on a power by power basis, so you dont get a cascading debuff effect.

So, yeah. A very messy idea with no actual way of telling if it could work or not, with a lot of work involved to make it so.....but I think there's a nugget of gold in there...somewhere..... :P

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So who won the battle?

So who won the battle?

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So GrayFigure if I made a

So GrayFigure if I made a character who wore a temperature controlled tech suit and a ray gun that shot ice then for no reason they'd be weak to fire?

A rock paper scissors style strength and weakness system doesn't really flow with Super Heroes. It can't account for a huge breadth of what people can and will make. So it's better, in this instance, to have generic distinguishers for damage and let people sort it out for themselves.

Being able to melt ice or put out a fire with cold/water would be nice (without having to rely on temporary powers) but if that's the sacrifice to have a more flexible CoX like experience? It's one I'll gladly make.

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The Mighty Duckets of course.

The Mighty Duckets of course. Haven't you seen the movies?

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Clearly, Ducketts skated in

Clearly, Ducketts skated in and High Sticked ol' Firepants, who is similarly vulnerable to Ice. The fiery one was knocked down and Zambonied, until Stone Hard Steve stepped up and rocked the ice-man into submission.

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Aesthetic decoupling is

Aesthetic decoupling is intentionally named such because aesthetics are decoupled from mechanics.
You won't see "fire" melting "ice". That is ice aesthetics for protection having a disadvantage from fire aesthetic attacks.

As for environmental effects, like putting out a fire with some form of mechanic - we can do things extemely simply: The building is on "fire" it is actually energy based and this has energy resistance and some physical resistance. Exotic effects can therefore to more damage than thenother damage types, but no one isnleft out.

We also have a subsystem that is built into our power design that we can use for environmental tags but we not ready to delve into that at this point. I say this just to show that we have thought about such things as environmental effects and player-power combos between different players.

This is something we don't have development resources at this moment to dedicate towards implementation. We putnthe bones in place, so we are ready to build on those when we can.


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Eating our cake and having it

Eating our cake and having it too. You devs are great!

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.
If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.
The damage types are Physical, Energy, and Exotic.
What you make thise look like doesn't affect the mechanics in any way what so ever. Making a physical attack look like electricity doesn't change the damage type. Damage types aren't customizable.
One possible way (of testing permits) is a partial damage type change by Power Set Augment being socketed.
Project_Hero wrote:
Now that that's all put to rest (hopefully anyway) I still want to know more about alternative activations, how they function (as in how you do it), and how they can or will impact the game.
Your main activation on a mouse is left click, alternate actication is right click. Optional pop-ups on mouse over can be clicked on for expanded details (or you could view details in the power screen).
Keybaord defaults are I beileve number by placement in the tray and then shift+number. But everything will be customizable of course.
Right now they are only used to change most knock down powers with a knock back switched by the alternate activation. Not all knock down powers can do this.

Questions:

Do these powers all default to the same primary state (all defaulting to knockDOWN, alternate activation for knockBACK) or is this case by case/power(set) by power(set)?

When you say it'll be customizable, do you just mean keybinding, or is it possible to customize the default behavior? That is; if I absolutely abhor knockBACK but have a power that normally defaults to it, can I swap the default state to be the knockDOWN version (or make a macro that specifically calls to the alternate activation) so that I don't have to constantly remember to hit the alternate activation?

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
When it comes to damage type... It's whatever powerset you want it to be. Fire could be physical (it is physically damaging), energy (it is a type of energy), or exotic (maybe it's some kind of mystic fire).
It really just ends up with what you want to play and/or how you want to justify it. It's your character after all.
If its that interchangeable and customizable, I wonder if there would be a way to change just the damage type without having to respec. Let's say you know you are going to be fighting fire type villains, you could change your damage to energy instead of exotic or physical for example.
The damage types are Physical, Energy, and Exotic.
What you make thise look like doesn't affect the mechanics in any way what so ever. Making a physical attack look like electricity doesn't change the damage type. Damage types aren't customizable.
One possible way (of testing permits) is a partial damage type change by Power Set Augment being socketed.
Project_Hero wrote:
Now that that's all put to rest (hopefully anyway) I still want to know more about alternative activations, how they function (as in how you do it), and how they can or will impact the game.
Your main activation on a mouse is left click, alternate actication is right click. Optional pop-ups on mouse over can be clicked on for expanded details (or you could view details in the power screen).
Keybaord defaults are I beileve number by placement in the tray and then shift+number. But everything will be customizable of course.
Right now they are only used to change most knock down powers with a knock back switched by the alternate activation. Not all knock down powers can do this.
Questions:
Do these powers all default to the same primary state (all defaulting to knockDOWN, alternate activation for knockBACK) or is this case by case/power(set) by power(set)?
When you say it'll be customizable, do you just mean keybinding, or is it possible to customize the default behavior? That is; if I absolutely abhor knockBACK but have a power that normally defaults to it, can I swap the default state to be the knockDOWN version (or make a macro that specifically calls to the alternate activation) so that I don't have to constantly remember to hit the alternate activation?

Default state is knock down, alternate activation is knock back. Customization is done via keybinding, not the default states.


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So to make sure I understand

So to make sure I understand the terminology used -

Evade = not getting hit at all (dodging/evading the attack entirely). Also not being affected by secondary effects.
Defence = getting hit but taking no damage (attacker hits my shield so I am perfectly fine). However this could mean that secondary effects still apply even if damage does not.
Substraction = gets hit but takes X points less damage. Could potentially reduce the damage taken to zero for light attacks or DoTs.
Resistance = gets hit but takes X% less damage. Always take at least some damage but could provide significant damage mitigation from heavy attacks.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

So to make sure I understand the terminology used -
Evade = not getting hit at all (dodging/evading the attack entirely). Also not being affected by secondary effects.
Defence = getting hit but taking no damage (attacker hits my shield so I am perfectly fine). However this could mean that secondary effects still apply even if damage does not.
Substraction = gets hit but takes X points less damage. Could potentially reduce the damage taken to zero for light attacks or DoTs.
Resistance = gets hit but takes X% less damage. Always take at least some damage but could provide significant damage mitigation from heavy attacks.

Evasion avoids attaxks by style of the attack; melee, ranged, aoe.

Defense reduces damage by a percentage based on the style of the attack, not the damage type of the attack. Defense is limited to defending against damage, debuffs, or controls by way of melee, ranged, and aoe.

Subtraction reduces damage by a fixed amount against type.

Resistance reduces an effect by a percentage against the type.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Default state is knock down, alternate activation is knock back. Customization is done via keybinding, not the default states.

As a player who'd vote Force Bolt as one of the best powers in CoH, this disappoints me greatly. A power like that absolutely needs to be Knock BACK and only that, there's no situation where you would fire a single target knockback power at a target for any other reason than "That guy needs to be over THERE!" It should never have an alternate mode.

You just essentially removed all knockback from the game. Because most teams will have some melee player whining about how a ranged player would dare to defend themselves by knocking a scary melee foe away from them. This will have consequences for the community tone for the game, and none of it will be good.

This is the first news that actually shakes my confidence in the game.

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Mcnum most players on the old

Mcnum most players on the old coh forums were very vocal about their dislike of kb in groups. Requests for a way to toggle kb into kd was widespread even back then. Rather than forcing players to use kb cot will at least let you the player decide on kb vs kd. Maybe we will be able to set a default state for ALL knock powers so the 'alt activations is swapped.

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The issues with knock down

The issues with knock down and knock back with multiple people are well known and were hotly debated.
Knock back was wonderful when people used it correctly, and infuriating when used incorrectly.

So much so that people even wanted an enhancement that had to be slotted to change things.

For as often people wanted to put thet guy over there, there were people putting that guy in the wrong place for the people directly involved with that guy.

As you said it can cause problems with the community - we have had a huge thread on this very issue on these boards. There were, in the omd game forums, huge threads over the issue.

We intend to avoid that route by giving agency to the player to decide how they want to play when it comes to knock down and back. It won't prevent avery argument, it isn't meant to. It is meant as a way for the player to decide what is best for them and to be able to use the tool which they find best for their play.

You can customize your keys / buttons and create macros to choose your preferred method. Learning annew way to play so tou can decide, on the fly, what is most advantageous. The default being the situation which causes the least amount of problems for everyone as whole.

Also understand that our mechanics are different thsn thenold game. Back then, knock down was a low threshold magniude of knock back. This isn't how it works for CoT. Knock down and Knock back are 2 different vector displacement effects. Each one can be resisted and reduced. And we can set up timing to balance knock down - to get ready stance with timing for knock back distance - ready stance so neither is directly more advantageous so far as timing is concerned.


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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

So GrayFigure if I made a character who wore a temperature controlled tech suit and a ray gun that shot ice then for no reason they'd be weak to fire?
A rock paper scissors style strength and weakness system doesn't really flow with Super Heroes. It can't account for a huge breadth of what people can and will make. So it's better, in this instance, to have generic distinguishers for damage and let people sort it out for themselves.
Being able to melt ice or put out a fire with cold/water would be nice (without having to rely on temporary powers) but if that's the sacrifice to have a more flexible CoX like experience? It's one I'll gladly make.

Depends on if you set your defensive aesthetic to that.....or just go invuln and be ambivalent to it.

But the beauty of such a system is that it can be simple or more complex as needed. Maybe your suited guy has a weakness to fire......in his first powers. But his later powers may weaken the rebuff, or nix it completely. Its why I used the term library in the initial example. You could make these volume more complex.

On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Default state is knock down, alternate activation is knock back. Customization is done via keybinding, not the default states.
As a player who'd vote Force Bolt as one of the best powers in CoH, this disappoints me greatly. A power like that absolutely needs to be Knock BACK and only that, there's no situation where you would fire a single target knockback power at a target for any other reason than "That guy needs to be over THERE!" It should never have an alternate mode.
You just essentially removed all knockback from the game. Because most teams will have some melee player whining about how a ranged player would dare to defend themselves by knocking a scary melee foe away from them. This will have consequences for the community tone for the game, and none of it will be good.
This is the first news that actually shakes my confidence in the game.

You have the option to do whichever you want. If you want knock back, you can do that. If you don't, you can choose knock down. I fail to see how the player having the freedom to choose is equal to doom.

(insert pithy comment here)

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We have to take some

We have to take some liberties here you can't take aesthetics and roleplay into account. Otherwise most peoples characters wouldn't know jack about battle and the normal human soldier with a firearm is going to put you down before you can do jack.

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