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Not to get sidetracked, but I think the main reason why TSW fails to inspire more than a handful of builds despite a vast ability selection has a lot to do with the content (specifically the NM dungeons). A lot of the fights are DPS races plain and simple. If they aren't DPS races by design, a lot of fights end up that way because having a lot of DPS allows you to skip certain challenging mechanics entirely and reduce the probability of failure. This more or less drives build design in one direction. Even in the case of tanks and healers, popular builds are shifting towards DPS-tanks and DPS-healers. A lot of the content makes crowd control obsolete, or the job of the tank only.
In contrast, I think CoH was successful at inspiring different builds because you could complete the content in different ways. There weren't many fights, with the exception of a few iTrials, that you had to do so much damage or you outright failed. Because the content was flexible, build/team diversity was more likely to occur.
[IMG]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h7/Amygdala27/sigglow.png[/IMG]
Allow me to add my 2 INF to the notion that building a challenge to be nothing more than a DPS race is a mistake and Poor Game Design. It's part of the reason why in CoH the common wisdom was that "Damage is king, and AoE wears the crown!" because damage "did everything" you needed a lot of the time (ie. "death is the ultimate Debuff" mentality). The beauty of CoH is that much of the time you didn't necessarily NEED uber DPS to be successful ... and sometimes you could get Very Clever™ ... such as use of Confusion to achieve an objective which ordinarily you'd have "no chance" of being able to complete. Sometimes you could "crush" or otherwise neutralize your opposition through use of Buffs or Debuffs (Super Reflexes at the Defense Softcap, or All Radiation Teams) that gave you liberty to "melt faces" in ways that weren't just a "pure" DPS method (even if DPS always was a component of those strategies).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The system that Tann and the Tech Team are building will offer a broad range of customization. Hopefully, you will find the options diverse enough to create the character concepts you desire.
Freeform was discussed as one possible structure for the power system, and on the surface, it may seem that an open system like that would be best. However, aside from issues of balance and design requirements, a completely open system may actually discourage participation in the game, and could lead to a reduction in diverse characters.
Consider a new player enters the game for the first time, and has no defined structure to guide the power selection process. They have no experience or knowledge on what works, what the strengths of the various powers or abilities are, and no idea as to choices that may result in a poor gaming experience. They may be able to overcome that with information, but the volume of data needed to make wise choices might exceed their level of patience. We shouldn't expect every person that wants to experience CoT to be an expert in our power system just to have a good time.
I'm a bit of a Min-Maxer, but I'm also like to RP, and most of the characters I have created were built from concepts: instead of just to leverage the game system. So, we are trying to offer as diverse a system as we can, but still stay inside of a structured build process: one that already has playability factored in.
I also believe that this will actually increase the variation of characters created and powers being used in the game.
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
You're absolutely right.
/thread
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Not to mention increase cooperation and teaming (and thus community) as well as offering different playstyles which enhance replayability (thus keeping people playing longer).
Altitis - it's a hell of a drug.
Yup, an open freeform can be over whelming a bit to new players.
But hopefully it wont be restricted that it end up less diverse when they become veteran and expand their concepts only to realize they cant do it due to restrictions.
Games each year get more and more complex and sale more and more. GTA original as simple as it was probably would be "WTF?" if released in today gaming market and thus as complicated as GTA IV was and even more so GTA V is, it sale like hot cakes and have people coming back. At first even in the latest GTA game a newbie is wondering, "What now?" But once they get the hang of it, they take off even in the online basicially MMO side of the house of things.
Complexity has it's ups and downs but it isn't bad but yeah probably not too wise to start off with total freeform. Maybe eventually as someone suggested and their name slip my mind, have it be an unlock for people that reached the top level as by then many have gotten the hang of the mechanics and probably itching to create more complex toons and characters but if it's too restrictive to where it's the same few powers just different animations, and range squish melee tank and scrap, and healers heals, although from the looks of it, you all plan on going beyond that, it gets monotonous no matter how many alts they build if within the AT limits it all function basically the same. But I must say, looks like you all are on your way so far with finding a decent balance between structure and not being overly restrictive. Remember while coloring of the powers are cool and different animations are cool too, but when it still plays the same way regardless of animation, players will see through that and will still feel the same no matter how pretty it looks or how many different paint colors are used. As I said, don't miss it, or you're just piss yourself off, that you all are heading in the right direction with finding the proper balance. I hope it make it to the final game and not just a cookie cutter of the restrictive COX way with extra pretty looks.
I hate Min-Maxxing and want it to be known that this is NOT what I hope to achieve in any combat mechanics system.
I completely agree with the fact that well planned DEV BUILT progression trees where they tell you the TYPE of cast based on (Single Target, AoE, Buffs, Heals, Mez etc).. but I still wish the player got to choose the type of damage (even if it's just a choice between their two (?) chosen frameworks). If I want a Fire power to be replaced by an Ice damage (both being choices you've already made .. if I'm understanding you correctly) then I don't see the harm of having the effect of a burn based attack (with theme of burn based attack) do freeze (or psychic) damage. Again the Effects of the Cast would be dev defined but the player gets to choose what type of damage (of the two types pre-selected). Does it really matter if I'm doing an Electric Cone AoE or a Fire Cone AoE if they do the exact same damage amount?
This would also diversify the resistance system making it HARDER to FoTM/Min Max because players will have to CHOOSE their defenses wisely (maybe not Tank Roles as much.. but even Juggernaut is susceptible to Psychic attack after a threshold)
With hope to see multiple progression trees even within one role, this offers a great deal of diversification without needing to greatly update the FX database nor the Powers Database to any great length.
It's one suggestion, but I'm more than willing to see how the game combat mechanics pan out.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is that even if two toons were BUILT the same they needn't LOOK the same because of all the available customizations possible yes? Because personally I LIKE the idea that my Acid Burn could have all the same stuff as Pyro and yet not look anything like him.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
This will not be part of customization. Changing damage types would put more load on the system per power use than you may realize. It also could allow for the possiblity of unwanted effect behavior within a given powerset's designed mechanics. Then there are much broader issues such levels of customization can affect within the context of a MMO.
That is the goal.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'm not a dev, but I think it's important not to let players mix damage types too much. It would always pay off to have a mix of damage types, especially those perceived as least resisted, so one could shop around one's power list to overcome any enemies with resistance. Thus, except for people dedicated to concept over efficiency, everyone would tend to have the same mix of damage types if allowed to choose.
I have nothing against choosing one damage type for your power set as a whole; but allowing [i]a la carte[/i] damage type selection would be just plain bad.
Captain of Phoenix Rising
Please keep this in mind when considering the issue of respecs/retcons. If respecs are too difficult (or impossible) to get, players who made poor choices will not be able to correct them. Even though CoT will not have freeform powers, it will be still be complex and difficult for new players (which is going to be all of us).
Being discouraged from playing a character because of uncorrectable mistakes discourages the player from playing. Even if a new character can be created, there can still be the lingering stench of failure from past mistakes.
[size=1]Kickstart Backer # 771[/size]
Which is the main reason why I think there should be a respec, easy to get in the character's career, but only available once per character. Say level 15 or so. That way grevious mistakes can be corrected. However it's early enough in the career so as to not be TOO unbalancing (since it's once only) but also not so late that bad choices early on cripple the character for half its career.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Uh ... NO ...
I played Diablo II, which had NO respec capability to it. If you wanted to respec, you rerolled ... and then had to GRIND your way back up to your previous level (and possibly even previous gear, depending) ... and you could be "forced" into that circumstance [i]by a single mistake of a key click[/i].
I far prefer the City of Heroes method where you CAN respec your character, but you have to EARN that respec. The only "flaw" with the City of Heroes method was the Mission Content of the Respec Trial arcs themselves, particularly their final missions, which were just gimmicky. Terra Volta in particular was just plain *BAD* because you spent [i]more than half your time just standing around WAITING for mobs to spawn[/i] rather than spending at least half your time fighting them because the spawn timer was just so ridiculously long. Made for a [b]BORING[/b] conclusion to the Respec Trial.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Not going to read through 103 posts... so if this has been brought up before, just consider it a vote in that direction.
What I'd like to see is the ability to select a 3rd classification once you hit a certain level. This would allow characters with nothing but ranged attacks in their primary and secondary classifications to pick up either some melee attacks, support power, or defenses. Melee characters could nab a few ranged attacks, or support powers. Then limit this 3rd classification so that you can only get the first 3-5 powers in the set you pick (depending on how many powers end up in each powerset.)
Streaming Classic Rock, Beyond, and Before, 24/7 on Paragon Radio Gallifrey.
Willow48000, to be clear Classifications in CoT are about the type of playstyle you want to play and determine what Specifications are available for that playstyle. These Specifications will determine your primary power sets and secondary powersets. Say you like to Tank, you go Stalwart, from there you choose your specification. So now say your primary power sets are based on Defense your Secondary for the Specification you chose is based on Melee. Later, through levelling, you will be able to access tertiary pools which may allow you to further branch out into different powers like ranged attacks or support.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Yeah no respec system sucked.
COX system was cool with the mission and earning a respec isnt bad idea. Just annoying it was team gated. Meaning in order to correct the mistake a person had to find a team to earn their respec. I think a respec mission or way to earn the respec should be able to be a solo mission too. That way a player can correct their mistake without affecting team play or even in low population situations can still correct their mistake if they make one.
I'm confused again. Are there "pools" or just a liner progression where the powers are chosen for you?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Remember how it worked in City of Heroes? Like that.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I have a good friend that I met in CoH that never planned his character builds ahead of time. When the moment came, he would ask people in the team or in our SG for suggestions and such, but he refused to use a Planner of any sort. He wanted the available powers to be revealed as his character advanced, and he was excited to do it that way.
As far as Retcons (Respecs. et al), I'm not sure having one available at a certain level is a good idea. I'm more inclined that they be earned, and I concur that it would be best if more flexibility existed for the earning of them.
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I really hope we start where COX left off, and you can simply buy a respec in the store. Sure, I would have mission content where you could earn one without paying anything, and the "free" one's given out with new issues if lots of changes are made to powers, and finally as a rare drop even. In any case, I would not want to make it overly scarce or difficult to do a respec. I remember when you were limited to the 2-3 respecs you could easily get on a character, it only caused anguish for me. I don't see any game balance benefit to limiting them.
-Bodai
There are several things to understand here. Power sets have a fixed number of powers in them. There are 2 sets per Specification; a Primary and a Secondary.
Through levelling you will in some form, gain the option to pick powers, from these 2 sets. Then at some point in your progression (or multiple points - again nothing is set yet) you will gain access to Tertiary Power Sets. This doesn't count non-combat abilities such as your travel power, skills, and other non-combat related abilities (like say x-ray vision as an example).
So far as I'm aware we won't choose powers for you, like say in CoH when someone picked their primary at level 1 they could choose the first or second power, and only the first power from their secondary. This may happen (or it may not), however as you level, the more levels you have the more options which may open up to you as to what powers you pick. In a game designed around the concept of customization and personal experience, it wouldn't be good for us to force players into picking every power from their primary / secondary power sets. At the same time, if we do our job right, you just might want to pick every power from them and going outside to tertiary powers should be a hard choice to make.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
So I wasn't the only one! Min/maxers thought I was nuts, but I considered the surprise of what became available part of the character's slow realisation of new ability.
I can also say that the only respecs I ever used were due to changes in the game (universal Fitness, etc) and never due to the choices I made. I considered learning to use whatever powers I had chosen part of the challenge of the game.
Having said that, you can probably guess I'm not a proponent of a freeform system.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Don't get me wrong...I didn't mean to imply that the Respec would be FREE...simply that one would be available. Remember when CoH had their Respec schedule? You could get one at (IIRC) 24, 34 and 44. I think that 24 is too far along the character's career. If you have a great concept then make a bad power choice at 14 you're stuck with it for ten levels. I simply think that a Respec should be AVAILABLE at lvl 15ish.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
yeah, forgot about that part. Yeah it should be available a bit earlier.
Well, for that matter, for Comicsluvr's concern about earlier respecs, I would hope we would start with multiple builds, as I had in CoH. That second build slot was an easy way to undo a mistake in early leveling.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Also, with respect to the query of the First Post and purpose of this thread ...
[url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/10706-Resurrecting-the-Superhero-MMO-City-of-Titans-Q-A.3]City of Titans Interview[/url] (page 3 of 4)
Quoted for emphasis and clarity of communication.
/thumbs up
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Hm. except there is lot of interest in teaming in CO and not everyone is a tank mage. At least every day, there are multiple teams forming to do either lairs, some do alerts and some do regular missions. Usually the replies for those that join the team rarely ever come from the people on COX channel that keep saying there is no interest in teaming in that game.
The difference between CO and COX as far as teaming is that in CO teaming is less forced. But people still team.
I think if they actually gave the game a chance they would have realized that CO community is very dynamic and yeah there are some tank mages, just as there were some in COX after IOs came about, but most people have a variety of builds and play style.
I loved playing Champions and also did my fair share of game-mastering. It is probably the best free form RPG system in existence with power warnings and some only allowed at GM discretion. I actually had to impose a combat rating courtesy of Adventurers Club magazine to keep game balance. COH must have used a least a crude version to match number of opponents during missions and TFs. I had similar feelings about COH, but when they allowed us to skip some pool powers, added IO, rogues, SJ and shield I was actually able to create two of characters from my Champions campaign. Fortunately for us the Devs will have more options and flexibility than COH had at its start. I suspect it will be like starting at issue 12 instead of zero.
[b]Pratfall[/b]
1" Running Movement (Usable Against Others, Fully Invisible Power Effects, Variable Advantage(!))
Active Power Cost: 15 (so +6.5 Advantages total) (Variable Advantage typically included Ranged, Area of Effect, Sticky, and even Variable Special Effects sometimes in order to give the "bowling alley PIN STRIKE!" sound effects just for shizzle)
Final Power Cost for an Ultra Slot in a Movement Power Pool: [b]1[/b] Point
The campaign I played in where I had [b]Pratfall[/b] it was THE MOST POWERFUL POWER IN THE GAME (despite costing "only 1 point!" for my character) because it was simply the greatest source of COMEDY of any power in the game, and I was very good at deploying it for comedic effect. I once calculated that using this power could, statistically and mathematically speaking, make everyone watching a game in a sold out *football stadium* essentially just "fall down" wherever they stood (which was what the 1" of Running was used for, to make people simply "fall down" ... hence, [b]Pratfall[/b]).
In the middle of a BIG courtyard with ninjas hiding behind every hedge getting ready to ambush your group in the center? Define the Variable Advantage on [b]Pratfall[/b] as simply having a large enough area to cover the entire courtyard and include a Hole In The Middle so you don't affect Self or your Friends and ... watch every Ninja "fall out of the bushes" in a [b]Pratfall[/b] that not only makes them look stupid, but which completely ruins their ambush (and costs them an action to regain their feet).
Total Banana Peel Factor Power ... that only worked on "stuff" that wasn't (in effect) "nailed down" (and thus could be moved) because it was defined as Running movement. So it didn't affect anything in the air (flying or gliding) nor in the water (swimming) or tunneling through the ground, or whatever ... but it could make The White Bishop (complete with [i]flowing snowy white robes of Purity and Holiness[/i] who spouted scripture at us) take a couple of (involuntary!) steps to his left and fall down through an open manhole in the street (our group's brick had used the steel cover as a throwing weapon already on some "crunchies" earlier) into the sewer below ... with a sickeningly "goopy" splash, followed by a blood curdling scream of horror, disgust, revulsion and sheer incomprehensible disbelief! Needless to say, we didn't see HIM again very quickly! ^_~
When the Game Master just [b]LOOKS AT YOU[/b] ... opens his mouth ... points an accusatory finger at you ... and can't find anything to say for about 20 seconds because he's just left so completely [i]speechless[/i] by the stunt you just pulled (while the other players are just ROLLING on the floor and having trouble breathing!) ... you know you have achieved SUPER HEROIC status, because you've Beaten The Game Master and he simply can't figure out how to punish you for doing it because it's just too damn funny! Mind you, my character didn't "beat" The White Bishop in that battle ... but in all ways that mattered, my use of [b]Pratfall[/b] "defeated" him because after I made him fall into the sewer, he never came back to challenge us again in that battle, so ... "win" by overwhelming humiliation, rather than by dealing damage and knocking him out in a more "conventional" manner.
The power of [b]Pratfall[/b] is without question my greatest achievement as a Rules Lawyer in figuring out a way to Rules Rape the game system in the most incredibly awesome way ever that anyone had ever seen ... and it cost me all of [b]1 Character Point[/b] to get it and EXPLOIT IT ruthlessly. Totally an edge case situational "fiddling on the margins" kind of power, but also a complete and utter game changer (usually through gloriously comedic means) that our poor game master had a really hard time arguing against. To this day, I'm still really PROUD of my method of figuring out how to first MAKE, and then USE, the power of [b]Pratfall[/b]. *^_^*
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Redlynne -- That is a thing of beauty. Brava.
And this, folks, is why we kept Red around in those campaigns, and why years later when he proposed a Teenagers From Outer Space game we all said heck yes.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Appreciate the detailed discussion here
as gamer as COH and CO player both from beta with friends who also played both and spent a long time talking about the merits and problems with each, here is what we came up with: 1) We agreed that our ideal game would feature content that was detailedand rich like in COH
2.) 4 out of 5 of my friends who played both games preferred to be able to pick there own powers rather than pick from a limited set and did not want archetypes
3.) The 5 one did not want to spend the time to learn what the powers did and was happier with a structure that was planned for him
If we could take the best of each game we agreed that game would really be exceptional.
For me it is not fun to be stuck playing an archetype that is not survivable in both solo and group situations. I got enough of that in everquest. Don't get me wrong, I like playing in a good group, but with a family you can not always commit the time to join a group and might not want to join one that you will have to go afk on 3 or 4 times in an hour.
In COH my first two choices were not survivable, especially in the middle levels when the game was in first two years, a gravity kinetics contoller and an ice electric blaster. They did ok in groups but were very outclassed by tanks and scrappers.
My first champions online character was not very survivable either but there I had the flexibility to take a defensive power and that fixed it.
In this new game it would be great to give players as much flexibility as possible while providing the option of a set structure for those who want or need it. Some of the most fun builds in each game were ones that allowed you to make creative use of powers that people did not usually take.
In any event, I do not think that characters should be made purposely unsurvivable to force grouping. Among my friends, in COH, each person made a tank and a defender or healing controller and level them all the way up so that the same people were not always be forced to play one of those two archetypes every game session.
The other issue we agreed on that made a big difference in how much we enjoyed the game was character growth, having something to look forward to every level that made characters better. Stat increases, skills, powers, and also enhancements. I did not like what seemed to be an added grind to get new powers in COH after level 32. It felt very slow when it went from a power every other level to a power every three levels. Getting extra enhancements did not seem like a good substitute for powers.
I hope COT has a better leveling structure than COH and that you do not have to wait 32 or 38 levels to get some of your best powers. This leveling structure is even more important when you consider that people on there 5 time leveling a character might not want to have to wait 38 levels to see what atomic blast does on there defender only to be completely disappointed.
Thank you for listen to some of things that we think are important.
Thank you also for the disscussion from so many different ideas.
-Herogamer
Yep, the cool thing about Champions is with the powers, advantages, limitations and self defined special effects you could basically create any power. Pretty crafty as long as the GM allows it.
The combat systems need to be more defined before my following statement but I'll make it anyway:
I understand City of Titans wanting to be the "Spiritual Successor" to City of Heroes Villains. But Cryptic Studios (A company with more money, experience, and resources) tried that and failed.
I think the focus on WHY they failed has not been fully realized. As a player of BOTH I am wondering why City of Titans is taking the step backwards (to dev-defined content) instead of forward (to player defined content).
I will be very specific with my analysis:
The FIRST and LARGEST failing of Champions Online is their "Hybrid" Class. I don't mean to say that hybridizing should not be a player option.. but NOT at the Class Level. Offering Passives, Powers, and bonuses at the class level is a HUGE mistake. If you want to be a ranged player with more survivable.. they should CHOOSE Ranged class and sacrifice their Ranged DPS for survivability. This was not what happened in Champions Online. It is ALL boost and no sacrifice. So I IMPLORE City of Titans.. do NOT make a "Catch All" class.
That is not enough to achieve Balance (even though it would go a long way in Champions Online). The next step is to DEFINE what type of powers classes have access to.
Foe Example: If you believe a healer class should be forced to use 4 healing casts and 1 Help enemy cast and 2 damage over time casts, then by ALL means please make a platform where the TYPE of casts are defined by the devs.
The problem (that you are attempting to avoid) from Champions Online is that players had choice enough to make builds that did not fit their class. My suggestion is to give players the freedom of choice, but restrict that choice to match the combat class they represent.
For the record:
I'm an outsider looking in but this definitely FEELS like throwing the baby out with t the bathwater. IF there are some restrictions as to why a regimented and defined rules can't exist in this game structure I thin I'm just "Missing It".
I understand that the combat systems have come a long way in pre-development but with some simple categorization and classification you could have the single most robust cast versus effect customizable powers system in any MMORPG to date. Something that sets you AHEAD of games like Champions and DC Universe
I need to know more about your systems to define what I'm talking about (because it is all hypothetical at this point) but I have some major suggestions that SHOULD help show you what it is that I'm talking about, without halting or slowing the development of your animations and FX database engine.
Finally I say I don't mean to (in any way) undermine what it is you guys are doing for what I expect to be an amazingly robust system. But (with my experience in finance) I think there are other options that may or may not have been discussed to bring both revenue and players to this game model for a long, sustainable game.
I'm still working on a system that works with both the developer's expressed goals and the plater desires. I don't expect it to be a "popular" answer to the balancing of the game but I will post it and try to explain the (long term) benefits of such a system in a later post
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Actually, I don't think they tried it at all. I don't think that Champions Online was ever intended to be any type of successor, spiritual or otherwise, to City of Heroes.
Actually, in CO for the most part ranged damage is sacrificed for survivability. Offensive passives with range powers while puts a person in the DPS range, it's great sacrifice to defense and if they take a defense passive they lose out on that DPS of the offensive passive. And while some can find gear to add defense to their DPS, and more survival based can be found in gear, which makes it a bit more variable when the pieces are added together and it end up with someone can actually be in the middle with decent range damage and decent survival. Instead of the usual old way of range means squishy. Melee means defense. In CO yes, a person could build a range toon that have some sort of survivability. And that isn't unheard of in the super hero realm. There are many range super heroes that can disk out some damage and take some hard hits without passing out from a flicked. It was a matter of time before that type entered into a super hero game. And it would be a step backwards to go back to range means must be squishy stuff.
Remember while now it's only CO and DCUO, even some fantasy games are getting away from range toons must be squishy and defense toons must be melee set up. In three years, that way will probably be on it's way out and another three years later would be at or near obsolete. COX was released in 2004, development started in 2001 time period, original idea conceived in about 1999, concept started 2000. A lot has changed since then in the past ten years. Progress with not in mind only these ten years but projection of the next three years and the time after that.
Hybrid actually gets no special boosts besides a few cases within a power here and there. The other defined sets gets boosts and decreases based off the baseline (hybrid).
Ya know why people say MMORPG is a dying breed? Because it seems the creators of games are allergic to being progressive. They rather copy a past game instead of creating their own while other types of games like FPS and even sandboxes and other console games are getting more revolutionary by the year. What usually happens in this case is there is one or two giants and the rest of the imitations that have the same rules, same style of play with tweaks, same holy trinity or to add they made add an extra or so but still the same basic ATs, the same mission sorts, the same instances, the same player ran market, with graphics being the difference. Thus people see no reason to not simply play the giants. In the console world something revolutionary is usually something that wasn't done before something that make the game stand out above the rest and the past game. In the MMO world, revolutionary seems to almost mean simply, "hey we fixed a bug! It' a whole new game now."
It's ironic because for the time, COX was pretty progressive for the 2001-2004 time period. But most games have caught up in those features. The holy trinity is a punch line now that is hard to find even in the most team based game. ATs strictly speaking is heading down that tube too. But I think too much to sticking to fantasy game rule of AT, and this is how missions must be done, and this is how powers must be balanced and AI must work, is what is kicking the Super hero mmo genre in the butt. Super heroes is not fantasy game. Go through X-men comics, there are all types of power combinations, some can be classified as the usual tank, brute, blaster, defender, controller, dominator, stalker, Mastermind. Most are somewhere in between not defined by ATs sets. And when super hero fans come in a game expecting to create their own super heros like in the comics and find out they are gated by ATs, that killed it. Of course WoW took off because it followed the proper rules for it's genre. COX didn't because it tried to follow rules that wasn't part of the genre. And there is no reason why super hero mmos shouldn't be booming right now. There are movies, products, and everything super hero everywhere the eye can see so that excuse of WoW lore stuff is not even an excuse. There is so much super hero lore, it's probably more than enough to make a super game every year for the next ten years at least. But the game makers keep trying to follow the rules of Everquest and ATs and limits, and funneling into teams and stuff instead of just simply letting the player be a hero like in the comics like in the lore that super hero games are supposed to based off of. Take COX, add woods and turn everything into elves and barbarians and rats and roaches and no one would even realized it was a hero game before. This is a chance to make a true super hero game that is not limited by technology like COX was and they still made a decent game for it's time. It's only limited by it's creators now.
Yeah, the notion that they were aiming for a spiritual successor is crazytalk. On top of that, the implication that they were better positioned to deliver on that, if they had wanted to, seems off to me. I think the MWM people have already demonstrated a far better understanding of 'the CoH experience' than Cryptic did. And, as for money, traditional MMO funding sources will come with design strings attached that will not at all be oriented toward recreating the kind of game experience that made CoH stand out from other MMOs. MWM is in a far better position to deliver on this than Cryptic would be.
It was because I never had the sense that Cryptic was going for a spiritual successor that I had no problem with them going for a more freeform power selection. They might even have pulled it off if they hadn't also gone with such a casual-teaming-unfriendly mission structure. Putting the two of those together, though, you end up with an environment that discourages the kind of team-oriented build experimentation that might have made a more freeform system interesting.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
IIRC Champions Online was originally going to be a Marvel MMO before Marvel ditched the idea - it was NOT designed as a "spiritual successor" to CoH.
Exactly. It was originally meant to be the Marvel MMO, and when Marvel pulled out they shopped around for another licensee and get Champions. It was never intended to be CoH 2.
I actually had a very hard time explaining to the people on the Champions forums that I liked CoH's system because it had multiple equivalent (but not identical) ways to do similar things, while CO generally had one power that did what I wanted/needed, so I was more or less forced to take that one power regardless of my build or concept.
The example I gave was healing. While there are several healing powers in the game, the only one that really gave me a huge immediate healing burst that I was looking for was the Supernatural power Resurgence, so I didn't have a choice, even if my character was not in the least bit magical or supernatural. The counter-argument was that I did have a choice, because choosing between one power that worked and three or four powers that didn't work was still a choice, right? I could choose to have completely ineffective self-heals if I wanted, so it's a choice!
In reply, I explained that, no, what I wanted was SEVERAL powers that ALL gave similar Big Burst Heals but had other secondary effects that differed, using several CoH heals as examples. Their reply to that explanation was giant smiling pony pictures. I haven't posted on the CO forums since.
So, in other words... no freeform, please. It's only the illusion of freedom.
Well COX players think either using the player controlled market or don't and have no way to make as much inf. is equal choices. Either take verbal abuse of certain pvpers or stay out of pvp zones is equal choice. If one wanted to be not squishy then being a melee based toon is enough of a equal choice.
I think there should be more heal choices in CO but that doesn't mean the entire freeform system is bad because CO don't have those choices. In AT form, the choices are even more limited. Either be range squishy or be melee defense based. And there is no choice of heals. It's what is in the AT and if the heal or certain type of heal is not in that AT set then there isn't any better of a choice than CO offer in that heal because if the concept don't fit the heal ya must take it because it's in the AT and the other choice is taken an entire AT that may fit the concept even less to find a heal that fit or end up with a heal that don't fit simply because with ATs there isn't heal choices if at all.
Like if you took dark armor, no matter what, you must take the dark armor type based heal that depended on enemy being surrounded. Or else you might have to take the inferior pool heal. Kind of like the choices that is offered in CO except even less and more limiting by the AT gate.
I think freeform would be better if they added something you suggested to the heals, heal where that more than one give a big burst (actually there are two in that game that I can count off the top) but with different secondary effects.
And before pointing the finger at CO forum, there was an abundant pony picture posting in the COX forum and everyone else didn't think it was bad. But now they experience in CO forum, oh it's a big deal now when in COX forum when someone complained about it, they got flamed for over reacting. Or maybe it's just no fun being on the receiving end and now it's more clear of how those people that got subjected to that of treatment in COX forum felt now and now realize they wasn't simple "over reacting" it's not a good feeling to have done.
I believe that talk of 'defenses' and 'squishness' is all relative. Yes, I'd like my Ranger to be less fragile. However my idea of less fragile means something like 20% resistance nd protection from lvl 1 Mez. I would NEVER expect anyone with high ranged DPS output to be as tough as a Tank. However I think the VEATs from CoX pretty much destroyed the whole 'tankmage' thing.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
My comment is not about whether or not Cryptic tried to be the spiritual successor or not..
My comment is on why Champions Online (specifically the combat) did not appeal to the leagues of City of Heroes fans. Again I contest that players LIKE the freeform system. But the Hybrid role and lack of "Role Rules" is what ruined the Champions Online combat system. Not the concept of freeform power choice itself.
A lot of reasoning against freeform has been because of the flaws in Champions Online's system. I do not want nor like Champions Online's system but there's a reason it doesn't work that goes beyond simple choice. Champions Online had more limits on its system at launch and removed them without foresight. I think the City of Titans model can have freeform choice with more limitations to the TYPES of choices available. One major choice that would be removed is that you must choose a play style and that cannot be "Tank-Mage" hybrids.
- -
If you want to talk about whether or not CO tried to sell itself as the "New CoH with better systems" I'm more than willing to talk about it in another thread.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I see.
Well it's hard to appeal to COX players when nothing appeals to them besides COX. :p But in reality lot of people played both when was up and in CO there were many ex COX players that been in CO since beta.
But of course what appeals is more on the individual level but then again I don't think CO tried to appeal to COX fans much at all. There are a bunch of other gamers and people who like super hero genre games beyond the COX players. COX players don't even make up majority of super hero lore fans. They are a decent portion but there are more than COX players that like super hero genre stuff and not everyone that liked the super genre games liked COX. Many people didn't like COX in fact. It didn't appeal to them for various reasons that is probably as varied or more varied than why some COX players don't like CO.
That is why it was said in the beginning to not go into CO expecting a COX clone because it leads to disappointment because a COX clone CO is not. Which may be good or bad depending on view. Bad for many COX players especially now because there isn't anything close to COX now.
There is variations of tank-mage status. I assume you mean a self contained tank mage status. Which was hard to doin COX until IOs came about then tank mage galore. Even prior to that by definition a player could achieve tank mage status easily on teams with a buffer or two. Tank-mage isn't all bad as it sound as I think it was one of those things that kind of nudged squishies to team more because to be a tank mage ya needed a buffer or two. That is until IOs came along. In CO, one could be a tank mage and the only difference between obtaining tank mage status in COX post IO and in CO is that in CO even the common man without loads of currency can build some semblance of tank mage if they chose. But then again, definition of tank mage varies ad usually the common complaint in CO is that all toons is too weak even the tank are squishy with is exact opposite of the tank mage thing and nullify it if that is true. In CO, it could be argued that since one cant take a offensive primary, the bread and butter for DPS and a defensive primary the bread and butter for defense then tank mage is near impossible in a classical sense. Since in a way for more defense the dps is sacrificed or for more offense the defense is sacrificed.It's just that in CO a dps can scrape up a little defense and a defense based toon can scrape up a bit of dps, a lot less so than even COX in post IO game where with IO, even a DPS can max out defense while increasing their DPS even further at the same time- Tank-Mage.
To prevent tank-mage thing not only would the CO system have to not be implemented but IO equivalent must not be implemented or else it's just a different style and way of tank mage. One uses IOs and one uses power choices. But the end result is the same, Tank-Mage.
I don't think tank-mage is a bad thing though. If a player can manage to build one whether through IOs or power selection why take away that choice because in the end, the ones that suffer most from trying to stump out a style of play are innocent people that is just trying for example to make their blaster equivalent less squishy. Because min/maxers will always find a way anyways to create the tank mages just like COX, building AV and Giant Monster killers with range toons. Melee toons that hit harder than an SO blaster and etc. Controllers that did very high damage, had holds and basically no risk of dying with the defense IOs provided.
I understand what you're saying.
In my perfect world City of Titans would create the progressions and let the players choose the powers.
As a Tank you can choose from Builds A, B, C, and D
Build A
(1) Single Melee Strike (2) AoE Melee Strike (3) Defense Buff/Taunt etc.
Build B
(1) Single Ranged Strike (2) Single Ranged Blast (3) Ranged AoE etc.
Etc. They tell you the TYPE of attack/buff/debuff/heal/Mez you pick from.. You pick the actual cast. This way you keep a lid on how builds are chosen.. but the player has a plethora of individual choices outside of the frameworks the game had initially while new players don't get the chance to gimp themselves.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think what is frustrating is that implicit in the anti-free form argument is that the better part of play is focused on PVP/Raider style play without acknowledging it. If you factor out simplicity to not overwhelm new players, those are the only real reasons for not going free form because there simply is no "balance" issue outside of those. In free form you play what you take, that's it. It's only in the context of other players does all this become an issue, let's just stick to that point.
I agree with the Dev's decision to go the class route because it is easier for new players (though I am not convinced many people gave up an MMO game because it was too hard to learn), but because they basically stated that incorporating PVP and Raider play was what they wanted, its not just because "free form" doesn't work.
I would disagree too that some people don't simply want a clone of CoH, clearly many people do; not all but many. CoT will benefit from input and discussion, and that is my greater point, it has to be more than just CoH if it is going to take off in the long run and have a wider appeal because as the Devs have stated it has to stand on its own with subscriptions particularly in a market where F2P is now the norm. If you expect people to stick around and actually pay you better be sure that its not the same game that just got canned due to poor executive decisions coupled with anemic revenue (and 2.6 million a quarter is not much), folks had better be open to looking at things from a different perspective. Don't get me wrong, I deeply want CoT to succeed and for selfish reasons; I love SH MMO's and I want one around that I like, my input is to stimulate a game with enough depth to make it in the long run.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
This.
What if you did a free-form system + a wizard for guidance? And some kind of visual depiction of your characters "balance"
So, it would start off small, and show your base levels of defense, resistance, regeneration, speeds, etc. (almost like MID's, and real-time as you select powers or add enhancements), then you would see what you deficiencies are as you go so you have a "path" to follow. Then, it would also have suggestions - like "you might want to consider some mez protection at this level" or "you have a serious endurance problem you should shore up", etc.
-Bodai
hmmm. That isn't a bad idea at all. A very good idea.
And I been thinking about it, even with ATs, Mids had a purpose, and there were questions on how to build a certain AT and stuff. This mean that either way new players will learn. Just as we all probably did when first starting COX. I can bet, but don't know for sure that a good number of people probably wince at their very first build in COX and or tweaked it as they learned. And in some cases had to relearn things like slotting after ED hit and the other nerfs and changes that occurred.
Yes ATs been the standard for years in the MMO world. So was grind grind grind. COX all but threw grind out the window (until incarnate stuff). And with freeform in the super hero realm there is really only one example. Whether it's good or bad or could be better, one failure doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Every technology just about had the first attempt not go so well as hoped. Airplanes. People been trying to fly for hundreds of years, but eventually two brothers got it and then their design wasn't considered very good one but it was a start and the idea of airplanes didn't get thrown out. It got improved upon even when rail was thought to be the end all transportation system. Now hardly anyone travel by train even though in those days saying that train transportation would fade would have gotten odd and quizzical looks just as in MMO going outside the AT model gets.
Uh guys? Not only is the horse ... um ... dead ... but there's a tree growing in the spot where it died ... and, like ... that tree is now tall enough that ninjas have a hard time jumping over it. This one is DONE.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yeah - I mean there are kickstarter stretch goals regarding "classifications", forum boards for the individual classes, multiple interviews mentioning them, forum posts by devs referencing them... I'm pretty sure the devs have settled on the classification/specification system at this point in the development of the game.
true, but cant help but dream of a good free system.
But hope what ever they decide on turns out to be a good step in the direction away from the restricted nature of COX AT choices in a decently meaningful step. AKA better for me at least. I'm looking for a game that I can enjoy hopefully for the next decade at least after release. Not the same game I already played for more than 6 years clocked already with merely prettier graphics and end up feeling after a few months it's a new game, but I already played it for 6 years already.
Hell, you could even mix it up.
Have the free-form + wizard, have the "templates" as I mentioned earlier, and then you might even have a paid service for "build advice" that could generate revenue.
-Bodai
Here here, I will second this that if COT is *exactly* like COX on launch, even if between now and then NCSoft sold them the IP for COX, then I would be partially disappointed, because I think we all agree there were many parts that were already getting tired.
Maybe this is the real reason NCsoft killed it. It had a good but small following, but it would have been an major undertaking to overhaul the engine and content to really do "justice" (sorry) to it in the long run, and they didn't want to go there. So, they kill it off rather than let it die a slow death over the next several years.
But who knows.... I think people still play Ultima Online?
-Bodai
Man, you are so bossy.
Remind me not to let you near my horse either.
-Bodai
I like the wizard idea. Even if it wasn't free-form at all, having a 'power buy' tutorial that can explain that you need to buy defensive powers, that your endurance use is very high, etc would be very useful for people who are new to the system, whatever it is.
Yep, although UO hasn't had an expansion for it for over 3 years. New "content" is slow in updates.
Its development team is *tiny*
According to [url=http://ultimacodex.com/2013/04/the-status-of-ultima-online-april-2013/]Ultima Codex[/url], the dev team is:
- Software Engineer – Stephen “Bleak” Brown, Yvette “MrsTroubleMaker” Aarons
- Lead Artist – James “Onifrk” Crawly
- Associate Designer – Greg “Kyronix” Havlusch
- Quality Assurance Lead – Michael “Misk” Armstrong
- Producer – Bonnie “Mesanna” Armstrong
- EA Community Rep – Dropixel
- EMs to run the events (still under contract as far as I know)
- GMs to police the game and help players
I believe that the GM's are general GM's on EA/Mythic's side, so quite possibly dealing with several title.
EM's are the "event managers" (i believe). Not sure how many or *who* they are employed by.
Of course, the original inspiration for decoupling visuals (speaking as the person who proposed it) was in fact wanting to have a fire power *look* like an ice themed power, because ice didn't offer the necessary approach and under the circumstances the damage type matter pretty much not at all.
Let us be clear about the distinction between "default visual" (what you get if you don't do anything), "visuals available by default" (what you have access to if you don't specifically enable "I accept that I will probably look like an utter dork if I do this wrong" mode), and "visuals compatible with the power, period" (enabling the previously mentioned mode).
The main restrictions boil down to things where the visual happens to reflect a *specific* mechanical effect that isn't easy to represent in other ways. The most obvious example of this being that an AoE is still going to have a clearly delineated area of effect, is going to be the same shape as it was before (no ground circle visuals of cone effects, etc.) and that *if* there are specific visuals cues used (for example, something which prevents you from moving around the map being standardized as having a visual that shows something restraining you) then any compatible replacement visual would still have *something* that showed that... whether it was plants wrapping around the target's ankles or a set of cement shoes appearing on their feet.
And before people freak out, there are *also* options planned to spare you having to look at the dork-tastic combination someone came up with specifically with the intent of annoying as many people as possible.
[hr]
[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I suggested this on CoH forums before. I think it was around freedom launch or close to its launch. At that time Arcanville explained to me why it can't work the way I envisioned it but said it is not a bad system and she would use it on another game. Here goes how it was in CoH terms
Player chooses an inherite power which also determines his AT (for example defiance for blaster, gauntlet for tanker etc) This selection effects base HP, max HP, melee attack modifier, range attack modifier etc anything that was effected by AT.
Player chooses one power pool (katana, dual blades, regeneration, fire control, empathy, assault rifle etc) associated with his AT as primary or secondary and gets a small bonus with that pool on numbers associated with it (cooldown time, attack modifier, damage, casting time, endurance cost, heal rate, CC magnitude etc)
Player than choose his primary or secondary (depends on first choice) pool among all of the available pools for his character and those both associated with his AT and not with his AT. If h chooses one associated with his AT he will get similar bonus with previous one (this bonus shouldn't be too big to prevent choosing anything else but should be good enough to reward choosing within AT)
Pools themselves are not categorized as primary or secondary so a scrapper could select fire control as his primary and katana as his secondary pool. Primary pool should get same little bonus as choosing within AT and should stack with AT bonus (lets say bonus is %2 so with this build our scrapper ges %2 bonus to his fire control powers and %2 bonus on his katana powers)
Another example would be a Earth melee/empath tanker (in this case he gets %4 with his earth melee powers but none with empath) and since he will be using tankers base numbers his healing wouldn't be too great but will be enough to get out a sticky situation still won't be enough to survive from drawing too much attention though.
Last example would be a classic lets say a trick arrow/illsusion control controller In this case this toon would get %4 with tric arrow powers and %2 with illusion powers.
Ofcourse this was just a suggestion and it could be tweaked in some ways (less or more bonus for not limiting first choice etc)
@Tannim222
Perhaps it is posted elsewhere, but any idea when a first "draft" of the power building might appear with details on the initial sets?
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
I think CO limits you more than CoH did, even with it's freeform system, because of it's emphasis on remaining the trinity within the freeform system and the archtypes. No one is ever joking when they say your going to be dps or a tank with self-healing, because thats the only way to play freeform without getting your butt kicked repeatedly in any team situation against "tough" enemies. Crowd control is near-useless because it never lasts long enough if it doesn't break instantly, and it's very weak in general as it compromises your damage if you do try to make it good, and it'd require other players to hold back and not use their firepower so you can be holding them. It just fails.
And thats the nature of support in CO in general if it isn't healing, it's very weak, most of the time. Protection fields always take 100% damage as do mindful reinforcement shields unless you use them on someone using like invuln due to glitchyness of those two powers. There are no other dedicated damage-mitigation buffs other than aura of radiant protection, and AoE debuffs had been nerfed into uselessness almost, the magnitude is just to small to really make a difference.
So EVERYONE has to build for damage/damage mitigation/self healing, or they get their butts kicked horribly in alot of things, especially with tough rank enemies involved or on elite mode instances. The archtypes are even more severely limited, they often only have the ability to hold agro and try to tank(and only with a healer babysitting them all day), or your damage and survivability sucks if you can heal yourself and others, or your damage is high but anything looks at you funny and you die. So for archtypes, CO is no different than every other MMORPG that had copied world of warcraft.
The freeform system may sound good but, the fact that support is very bad in CO, the lack of ability for others to provide damage mitigation, causes everyone to end up some variant of a carbon copy if they are freeform and end up a little "overpowered" or even ludicrously so, or they end up so underpowered the game ends up fun, because the whole system kind of collapses upon itself. Not to mention other powers like PBAoE attacks that are horribly underpowered compared to others such as mini mines that used to be powerful, but were nerfed to uselessness, due to scrubs on the forums asking endlessly for nerfs for the silliest reasons(that aren't always pvp related, often a jealous pve'er gets mad at another pve player for out-performing him by using a different powerset.
So I'm glad CoT is using the specification system, because it has the potential to allow for the variety that city of heroes had. I want to see crowd control be effective and not a useless pile of crap that it is in CO. I want to see things like force fields and time manipulation that City of heroes had, sets that either drastically reduced the healing needed,or could keep teams alive without any healing at all. I'd love to see storm summoning again and how effective it is at controlling the mobs enough to prevent most the damage. It's stuff you won't ever see in CO...because many players in it really either just want it to remain such that every freeformer is really just a self-contained 1 man team of a damage dealer/tank/healer or die constantly.
Edit: For the record, I find often I do die alot in Alerts when i'm in a poor team, end up with alot of agro, and am playing a toon with incomplete defenses. I die every time when i'm NOT equipped with solid enough defenses and self-healing, and it's annoying as hell, because they gave no alternative to being a self-contained trinity.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
When i think of an AT, i always invision a sort of Equalizer:
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f3DygKXuqZo/TbaT1xaJM3I/AAAAAAAABTs/MefC8gTJzog/s1600/PulseAudio-Equalizer+for+Ubuntu.png[/img]
For certain AT's, some sliders cant go past a certain value... Tanks for instance, allowing the Defense, Resist Damage, etc.. to move their respective Equalizing slider to the Top almost. So the Sound you get ffrom a Tanks Equalizer might sound diferent than what you would hear from a Scrapper, unless he passes gas! ;)
While I'd love a well-designed freeform power system, I'll certainly be happy with a flexible archetype system. The CoT team is well on the way to building that. There's one thing that they could do that would really open up the flexibility of character building, while maintaining a balanced archetype system: [u]multiple powers per tier[/u].
That is, instead of a powerset having a tier-1 power, a tier-2 power, a tier-3 power, etc, it would have two powers at each tier. The most flexible design would be to have two powers at every tier. With this, even at low levels you'd see a lot of diversity, simply because different players would pick different powers.
Two potential problems: 1) higher development cost. There'll be more to balance, but I'd rather have fewer powersets with more flexibility than more powersets with less flexibility. 2) it's possible that having multiple high-tier powers would be unbalancing. Good design mitigates this, but it might be a problem.
So, as a second option, I suggest the following: [u]the low tiers (maybe 1-4) of a powerset would have two powers per tier, while high tiers (maybe 5+) would have only one[/u]. That's a lot less extra work in design the powersets, since it's relatively easy to come up with variant low-tier powers, compared to higher-tier powers. And it's a lot easier to balance lower tier powers. Doubling up the low-tiers powers gives lots of extra diversity at low levels (where characters tend to be same-ish). At higher levels, the tertiary powersets already give flexibility, so doubling up high-tier powers isn't as needed.
[size=1]Kickstart Backer # 771[/size]
I like the archetype system .. but I am still waiting to hear the City of Titans definition of a powers framework.
When they say "burning powers" (lets not call them fire) that implies to me that the powers frameworks are based on the type of damage done. So now I'm excited to hear about damage types.
I would love to choose a burning archetype as a melee character then choose the animation set I want to use (flame fist, Flaming Staff, Sword of Kirby Dots, Claws of energy) and they can pick the mechanics of every single power I am allowed based on different progression trees.
I know thy kind of system I've dreamed of.. but i'm more interested in hearing how City of Titans plans to build their powers tables first.
I will say this.. If you have MORE customizations for players to create the build they want, you save yourself dev time after launch if instead of creating new frameworks for every whim. By using the frameworks as guidelines (First power is this kind, second power is this kind, etc) you only have to create new animations and FX. IF you decide to make new frameworks then the FX table doesn't need to be changed for each power that comes out.
I really think it benefits the longterm of this game. Adding new levels to endgame? Don't (necessarily) need to create entire new powers or animations. Want to offer more hybrid sets ..(Half burning, Half Psychic?) then create a new framework that does not even require any real overhaul.
If you can focus post-launch dev time on Playable Content and FX ALL WHILE offering no-less customization for players who desperately want a Sewage theme using poison and liquid sets (for example) I think that is an investment worth taking now and saving yourself work later. If you get all the way through your creation of the specific sets you want to release at launch that don't represent those niche crazy characters you're doing yourselves a disservice.
Finally I'll mention the money model. Everyone knows MMOs are pay to customize. With this model you can directly get money for every person who wants to pay to use the specific FX they want (Flames, Dust/Snow, Waves sonic /radio, Energy Beams, Kirby Dots). You can create new cast animations and put them in a set (The Staff Set, The Psi set, the nun chuck set, the dual pistol set, the rifle set.. etc).
P.S. - has CoT thought to seek persons who specialize in gaming systems. Setting any gaming paradigm is daunting but professionals break it down into the Lowest Common denominator and go from there. Maybe someone could contact game designers for a comprehensive vision. I know some who will gladly review the system for free but not likely work on creating one for other projects for free
TL:DR
This isn't really a "pick the mechanics you want" system I advocate.. it's a pick your damage type/FX/Animations system I advocate. The mechanics SHOULD be dev written.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I use freeform in CO. Believe me, freeform doesn't stop people from altitis.
Yes, I still have my main, but I had my main on CoH. :p
What freeform allows is one to be, for instance, a gunfu regenerator, without having no defenses, no damage or both!
Okay, I have to ask. Why do people assume a system where one may want to know the system to build their character (and when you say this, it sounds like you expect people to only pick the ULTIMATE powers) and need to learn a system will make people less likely to play?
Isn't EVE Online a game where you need to learn the system and it has over half a million players.
Two simple words:
Dwarf Fortress.
Yes people play it, yes people enjoy playing it, but the sheer complexity of the system is INCREDIBLY daunting to new players.
[color=green]BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER[/color]
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No an MMO though. Also, ASCII graphics even back then. :p Why I said EVE Online. Very Popular MMO with a learning curve.
Maybe needing a learning curve is what will help keep a player base.
well no matter what, new players no matter what game will have to learn. People say it is expected for people to learn to pvp, play the maket, how to slot enhancements, and stuff. So why would learning a free form system be off putting in learning but not the rest of the stuff that must be learned when entering a game?
Yeah it could be said that those mentioned stuff is easy to learn. Of course to some, just as freeform system is easy if not easier to learn to some people than a strict AT system that assigned a play style (meaning a player may have to learn a playstyle that may not fit their playstyle compared to building to suit their playstyle).
Looking at stats, many complicated games had more players than some of the more simle games ever had. Maybe complexity isnt as a big of factor as it is sometimes believed. But that also depends heavily on the individual player. Many people in EVE either stopped playing COX or could enjoy themselves because they said it was too easy, got bored and left. There was no challenege for them. Other gamers around the gaming world say there is plenty of challenge in COX, and some gamers around the gaming world say they played COX because it was easy.
This where choices can play it's cards best. Have AT for people that find it simple or want something simple or prefer ATs. Have freeform for people that want a bit more details, find it mroe simple, want more hands on, or prefer freeform. Kind of like a difficulty slider. How many people would have stuck around if the only difficulty level was even level cons that didnt spawn no matter what the situation was beyond 2 players worth because the devs didnt want to make the game hard to play for new players? Many people liked the challenge of being able to play X4/8 and others didnt. But they had a choice. Players could play at even -1/1 from level 1-50 if they chose and players could play at X4/8 if they chose, and everything in between. Choices.
Of course make actual formidable ATs, not half job ATs like at least one game did.
Or instead, have some guides at the ready for some classic comic book AT staples.
Claws Hero
Martial Arts Hero
Street Fighter Style Hero
Vampire Hero
etc
etc
Giving players the numbers so they can go "Okay, how best to make my concept without readily gimping myself." like in CO where I take a power purely for concept and never use it outside of the reason "It's pretty!" *loves CO's Crippling Coils*
Now, I'm pretty sure the idea o Freeforms is already out the window, but people had to learn CoH's system, and a lot of us enjoyed it.
I agree that "learning game mechanics" is not a factor to freeform choice.
The expressed factor however, from the devs, is character balance. I think this is a valid concern.
Now, IF their power-set frameworks are based more on the damage type done (burning for instance) and you can also exchange the FX and Animation then there's no reason you can't get your concept eventually. The'd just have to add the FX and animation you wanted. If I want a staff of acid.. I just have to use the Acid FX on the Staff animation of the "Burning" framework and voila!
If I want to have a bow that can shoot psychic arrows but also can be used to bash people in the head with psychic energy. I take a Bow Animation and pick a range/melee class with "psychic looking" FX and pick "Psionic" Framework. But someone could do the exact same thing with blasts from their head if they chose the head animation.. and the FX could look like radio waves instead of "pink darts".. even if mechanically they are both using the same framework and the same class.
IF this is what they're talking about then I don't have a problem with having a lack of freeform power choice at all.
At least that's what I HOPE I'm hearing.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I played cox for years and now co since its demise. And while I loved so many things in cox, co's ability to offer both freform and classes is pretty impressive. Why cant cot offer the same? You still get the benefit of structure but allows creativity for those wishing to pursue it with all of its inherent challenges
CoH addict for 8+ years...and counting
Yes, everyone will have to learn some aspect of the system. We have several ideas on how to make that as painless as possible. And, yes, a primary concern about Freeform is balance.
However, I believe there is threshold regarding what players must know before they can have an enjoyable experience inside the game. Freeform as the only system sets the bar too high in my estimation. (That should not be an indicator that there will be any type of Freeform system.)
While we are striving to keep the spirit of what was, keep in mind that this is a new development. Assumptions on the behavior of the system, and powers, in particular, would be unwise. Translating that into a Freeform platform would further increase the knowledge needed.
A guided system allows players to get to the action quicker, without falling into performance traps that may lie within a Freeform system. So, in a sense it circles back to balance issues. I just see it in the context of players wanting a relaxing path into this new world we are putting together. Hopefully, the expanded system we are working on will work toward both ends.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Answered in Post 12 and its predecessors. ^_^
[color=green]BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER[/color]
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And Red Sig Ninjaed! :-o
[color=green]BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER[/color]
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Besides, I enjoy the progression of a power set: it's almost like a mini-story-arc. "Hmmm...my powers seem to be using a lot of End as I get stronger, that's gonna be a problem at some-- whoa, an End Drain power! Sweet!" There's drama in there.
Spurn all ye kindle.
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