As a Champions PnP (since 1984) and online player, I oddly never played CoX. In reading the updates I was a bit dismayed at the whole Classification system for characters. By the sound of it and talking with players who played CoX, it sounds like there is the idea that "classes" are somehow necessary for the game. I'd like someone to comment on why, why not just do a free form system that allows for players to cherry-pick their powers? I realize the goal of the Classification system is to increase team play via roles, but it feels more like a locked in system that doesn't allow players to fully express their character via power selection. I realize that some builds will be weak, and some will be stronger in a FF system, but still that is true to the genre... Classifications to me seem like a step back to 2000-era thinking about games and repress thematic builds. Just my two cents, and yes I did contribute to Kickstart as I would like to see a game for the genre that really respects the players and the genre ;)
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
If it's made to be free form then it wouldn't feel like CoX, which would defeat the purpose of making something that feels like CoX in the first place.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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Ehem..
Classification system does NOT repress thematic builds and instead provides a means for them to be viable. You're truly only limited by what the mind can come up with. Also, the Freeform system (As Champions Online has so perfectly illustrated) is near impossible to balance without pissing a great deal of people off. City of Heroes is also more freeform than you think. You were allowed to spend 24 power points on either your primary set, secondary set, power pools, Ancillary powers, Patron powers (only 4 classes couldn't pick the last 2 but they were Epic classes that were WAY more diverse than the others) on top of getting many temporary powers.. In a way, it was more of a Champions game than Champions Online is (Infact it started as an MMO version IIRC AND most characters were actually Champions PnP characters played by the devs).
CoT takes this even FURTHER and allows you to have a psuedo-freeform. You'll be able to spend power points not only in your primary, secondary and possibly travel powers (that one's still unclear how it'll work) but you'll also be able to pick weaker versions of OTHER Classification's abilities if you so choose.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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Because, strangely enough, having free form options typically leads to homogenization as loads of people gravitate towards having the most effective powers.
Think of how it would have been if we'd been allowed to cherry pick from CoH's powers.
People'd be chronically at the damage cap from Fulcrum Shift, pick out the best DPS melees and AoE's, have the survivability to tank from defensive toggles, be able to lock down mobs with a big AoE control, and if we did get damaged or started running out of Endurence we could just hoover up some more using the Warshade's power to leech it from corpses.
And if you didn't have a build like that? There'd be a loud and noisy subset of the player base that would refuse to team with you because you didn't take the best options and gimped your build.
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There is also ease of use. In Champions online I had a Gold membership and could Free form. Thought because I didn't really understand the power system and choices I ended up choosing powers that didn't really work together or ones that does about the same effect or damage of another power I already had. Later I learned by these mistakes but it frustrated me to no end trying to figure out things.
A guided system minimizes confusion and makes it easier for casual players to roll out a new build. Like GFN aka Lord Nightmare said we will have a huge selection of powers designed to work with the powers in the Primary list.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
From my understanding, CoH Beta tried out a free form system, the only problem with it like Von Krieger mentioned is that people choose the best powers. Strangely enough this happened in beta, you were either too overpowered or had no horsepower.
Once you have a free form system people tend to work on cookie cutter versions of things, with minor changes here and there to suit them, this would also occur.
Bottom line is I do not want a free form system like that of Champions Online, if you disagree you should go play the game yourself and see how good it really is. In PvE it may be okay, but PvP is a whole other game not to be messed with in dealing with freeform.
Keep Low. Move Fast. Kill First. Die Last. One Shot. One Kill. No Luck. Pure Skill.
I do love free form cause I built interesting characters. Some are built just out of character concept. But, then I ended up with powers that just don't actually work well together. And trying to understand what all these powers did was tough. And just so many options and in the end my brain just broke. In the end my toons use only 1 actual attack. And maybe just an extra power or two. Having actual real ATs (not those pre created ATs of CO) that guide you into a choice of powers and understanding what your role is and what these powers are I just like way more. I liked how CoH handled it. And I didn't end up with all these powers I wouldn't use. I was able to create an actual rotation of powers that worked together. Heck I like how pretty much all MMOs without a free form. CO/TSW free forms are just odd. You can end up with a bar of powers that just make no sense with each other and some powers that require or work better with specific powers in their actual power set. The only free form I ever acutally liked was MxO.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
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With Champions produced by Hero Games...,
- ...a 300 point spread still only allowed for so much diversification...a really tough brute wasn't going to have too much by way of ranged offense, a ranged devastator wouldn't be able to handle as much punishment, a mentalist wouldn't have a great deal of damage dealing potential nor take too many hits...but would be able to totally mess up an oppenents day through illusions or mind control. I played Champions and still think it to be the best universal gaming system out there...however, unless you were playing with seriously high point levels - you couldn't afford to be able to do everything without at least some sort of limitation. Multipower slots allowed for a wide range of abilities at the cost of a great deal of endurance to use all consecutively, which CoX accomplished rather well as characters acquired access to more and more power options with the inclusion of tertiary power pools.
- Overall...you were still limited to some degree. An all out 'blaster' wasn't going to be duking it out mano-a-mano with the likes of Grond. A martial artist didn't have a great deal of ranged potential...some, but nothing like the impressive array available to characters who specialized in that field of interest. Believe me, I watched Champions grow from a system of poorly thought out and haphazardly intermingled powers, talents and skills to the rugged and stable system it is today. Sure, you could make some outrageously powerful characters...if you had 450-600 points to spend, but that's not what CoX was about. CoX was about characters who just started their heroic career, didn't know too much and grew into the 300-450 point range by the time they maxed out their potential...and I stand behind that statement...
- I have yet to see any other game system allow me to turn something as weak and squishy as a Blaster and turn them into a Tank. ;)
Auroran mentioned being an old-school Champions PnP player. Ironically the Devs of CoH originally wanted their game to be a "computerized Champions" and when they failed to get the licenses for that property went ahead and created their own generic superhero universe. They also originally tried to make CoH be Free Form like Champions, and it as others have mentioned it failed miserably. A few years later CO tried the concept again with questionable results.
I believe the main reason why a Free Form game like the HERO system works in real-world PnP is that you have a HUMAN game master who can regulate and account for all the little idiosyncrasies the players come up with. Human GMs can "bend" the game rules enough to make Free Form viable. Computer based MMOs simply have not reached the level of sophistication required to let players effectively "do whatever they want" and still be able to interact with other online players in a balanced, deterministic way.
Far from "disrespecting the genre" or being "backward 2000-era thinking" I suspect any well-balanced Superhero MMO of the present or future will have some elements of a class-based system... at least until viable AI game masters become available.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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Because in a team-oriented multiplayer game, it is often very useful to have defined roles/arcetypes for player to choose from. It actually enhances teaming and social interaction. I'm not even talking about the "holy trinity" - sure COH had "tanks" "healorz" and "DPS'ers" but these were by no means a necessary combination to create a successful team (hell - the most powerful group you could create was an all-defender team, and I was even on an all-Blaster TF team once).
Look at Champions Online - I'm not sure what it's like at the moment, but the times I played, everyone was a carbon copy DPS with some defenses and self-heals. Team support and strong controls were woefully under-represented. And you didn't need to team or even interact with anyone.
Another benefit to defined roles/arctypes? Alting. It encourages people to make several characters with a different focus or role, which require different playstyles, breaks up monotony, and helps keep players actually playing the game (and possibly subbing) for longer periods of time.
My experience with Champions was a rather short one. I got my DPS-dealing, tanky, self-healing character to max level pretty much by myself, got bored, and unsubbed. Picked it up a couple times after that over the last few years to see if they made any significant changes to the equasion but dropped it soon after.
Hey, I like point-buy P&P Supers RPGs as well (my go-to is Mutants and Masterminds) but in my experience, electronic multiplayer games benefit more from a bit of structure/direction. At least over a table the GM has the ability to regulate what the players come up with and make sure the group "clicks".
Now, with City of Titans, the way they are proposing we pick our powers will be even more open than CoH had, with us basically choosing our specialty/role (defense, support, dps, etc) and then having an even bigger array of powers to pick from after that. The best way to think of the character creation in CoT I suppose (at least from a Champions/M&M view) would be the devs providing us with a multitude of pre-made templates that we can plug together.
Being able to take a blast primary attack does interest me but I have a question say I go for CoT's version of a Martial Arts/Street Justice Scrapper/Brute but I want A sword or other melee weapon finisher attack would that be allowed under this system out side of temp powers? would there be penalties for going outside of my powerset even if it was still within my class?
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
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There were many discussions on the entire power system, and freeform was in the mix.
The two primary concerns that I recall were first, a requirement for players to become expert in the total system before they would feel they had obtained good use of the system. That might give rise to much frustration, particularly with people new to the game and new to super-MMO's. We expect that City of Titans will attract a wide range of player types, and we don't to overwhelm them.
The second was precisely what has been mentioned already. We want the game to have a certain feel that could be lost by complete freeform character building. So, we are reaching for ways to stretch the build process without slipping completely into freeform.
We will keep looking for ways to expand customization, but we want to do so in a controlled manner so players can navigate the system easily. Will we ever consider a freeform option? I really can't say, and that may ultimately be a question for the players. So, we will start in an easy structured system that expands customization, and we'll keep looking for ways to do more.
Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
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It was the community that made CoX so special and not so much the powers, I saw many leave other games for CoX and saw them leave CoH and then come back because the community in the other games just weren't CoX., that being said powers are very important. The biggest thing CoX may have done was allow each character to have 3 builds, this allowed all kinds of diversity by allowing each character to have different goals for different situations. The real problem was that it required some much in game currency - billions in fact to make a decent toon, just for one build. There were enhancements that were virtually impossible to get if you weren't into PvP. There were a lot of people that would tell you if you only spent a billion making one build you had a gimped toon. There was two exceptions to needing billions and billions that I know of and those were Hamis and Accolades. It was possible to make a pretty strong toon with little money if you could also get those. I hope that there will be a variety of ways to make powerful characters in CoT just as there were in CoX. I can only hope that it will be neither to easy nor restrictive in CoT to finally build as powerful a character as we want within the frame work of the game. and hope the CoT will achieve the correct balance in this area. I think everyone would agree that CoX failed somewhat and just one more thing - I don't know of anyone that didn't think that PvP hadn't been virtually ruined in CoX. Can we please just have the heroes and villians that work in PvE and PvP the same way! There were some character classes that were not viable in PvP at all because, they had been so gimped, emasculated and it just didn't make any sense. Good luck with your work guys, I don't envy the tough task you all have in front of you, but I want to hear all about every week and I can't wait for you to allow us a taste of it in beta and maybe alpha too. :-)
Yea... Screenshot of Mids Hero Designer Defense totals after spending 3.5 billion
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/DelightMan/photo/77242
...and others have said that an average of 60% Defense was awesome for a squishy Willpower build.
That squishy tank build was Awesome when we fought the Rularuu.
Everyone falls, but my tank keeps going. To be honest, he did have Soul Mastery... so the -ToHit DeBuff helped.
Remindes me of my 1st Stone tank, after level 32. ;)
That's it, right there.
There is no comparison between what a human being can do for a small group of players and what a computer game that is meant to accommodate thousands of players can be made to do.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Agreed. I used to play Champions PnP back when it was first launched. Without a good GM it was possible even then to make powers that could literally wreck the world.
No way a game could ever achieve that kind of balance. The world would break...big time.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Freeform has it's up and has it's down.
allows creativity beyond the regular melee tank squishy range stuff classical ATs. Down side is that many people will forgo creativity and straight for best powers. Same with ATs, just on smaller scale. Many power set combinations were under represented while others were over represented and build made with builds that other post on the forum even in AT centric COX. So either way, people will gravitate towards the FoTM build and powers.
ATs stifle creativity and basically define the role instead of the player defining their role. Tanks even in COX was expected to take taunt and be melee. Blasters were expected to be squishy and be range and deal damage. Range toons in COX meant squishy defense wise and either control or dps. Melee meant either tank or high damage. Brutes somewhere in between. And of course I'm talking about majority of the levels not only once you reach 50 and have to spend billions of dollar. By then it was no better than the cookie cutter problem in CO. Everyone was maxed out defense/acc/ damage toons running around with massive AOEs. But leveling up, defined roles stifle creativity. Freeform allows it more but again, yeah some people don't play to be creative they play to win and don't give a hoot about how powers fit together or balance.
In CO due to their freeform system I was able to build toons that been in concept stages since 2005 that couldn't be done in COX due to the AT limitations. In CO I didn't have to wait until the last leg of the game to pick a power that fit the concept but wasn't within strict limits of the AT either. And yes, many of them don't need a team. That is the point because sometimes I cant play until wee hours of the morning or night, or early SUnday when that is inconvcient times for most people and it sucked in COX to see lot of content limited to effectively getting done in the form of TF/SFs. And many ATs were not or didn't seem to be made for soloing in those time effectively. Like my Empath sat around idle for years because couldn't solo well, and teams started to come far and between on victory server. So yeah having the ability to solo isn't a bad thing. Because if people want to team, that choice is always there but I think it's nonsense to punish and gate solo people out like in COX. In CO, yeah people can easily with freeform build a self sufficient toon. And still in CO, teams form all the time in CORP Channel, COX channel, the Zone channel. But ironically most people have those channels off. So of course it will be quiet. Just as if people turned off the private channels and the other global channels off in COX.
People not talking on teams that sounds like a problem that can only be fixed by the people. If no one is taking and the person wish for people to talk do not talk themselves then how can they expect someone else to start a convo if they are not willing to? Plus not everyone is social bugs or wish to be social bugs. I know it's hard to understand coming from COX where everyone belongs to a group of friends that play the same think the same like the same things and talk about about the same things 24/7 in and out of game. But in may games, not everyone is that social. Some people enjoy the quiet and some people don't know how to start a convo believe it or not. And some just want ot get the job done and be on their way and not spend most of the time trying to be friends. One of the reason I think it was easier to sit around and chat on team was the slow paced nature of forming, and going into missions as a team. Missions were across wide travel areas so while waiting on one or two people to arrive that 's ten minutes of small talk. Then another 5 minutes for them to load up, and another 15 minutes waiting for the guy that ran ahead to get back from the hospital. In CO, usually the time it takes for team to form and arrive at the mission and complete mission is a lot shorter and faster pace. Although every team I been on in CO have been social and talkative thus far in a nice way. Many times in COX on the other hand I wish it was less talking as lot of it was the dude with the star trying to boss everyone around or people talking about someone else or dissing another game. After awhile in COX I started to slightly dread teaming because it seemed most of the time it was some over opinionated dude telling everyone how to play and how all tanks must have taunt of they are gimped and if people don't out damage his blaster they are also gimped. Coming across those types in COX made a lot of the teaming experience tense instead of fun and that even carried over to CO. I have no desire much to team anymore. Every blue moon I team and luckily good experience. But from what I hear from others, those types are still alive and well, but the good thing is in CO I don't need to team for anything just about besides a quick alert here and there that is two minutes no time to talk or for people to be rude except get the mission done or not. Then they can go back to the forum to complain about the lowbies causing the failure but don't have to worry about it while trying to be social on a team and have fun.
Jag40, "I'm BATMAN!" ;)
Thanks for responding - I can definitely understand for game design reasons why the lack of why pure FF was done at this time. Having played games forever it seems seeing the synergy between powers (or lack thereof) comes easily now, but I can see how a new player could get overwhelmed. I can also appreciate encouraging team play, but I do feel making classes able to solo a fair amount of content is also important, as this is part of how many folks play even in MMO's.
To the other posters:
I have played on CO since beta with FF always as an LTS, and have played the PnP for years on and off (we set limits on Active point costs in Champs, along with limits on power costs and PD/ED, so I realize the issues wrapped around FF even there. Its true that PVP builds particularly will gyrate to a FOTM build. However, a lot of other folks don't even care about PVP so they look for maximum flexibility for creative outlet; this isn't naive, its just a different focus. I want to see CoT do well, if for no other reason than I like playing SH games and want more options ;) However, its key imho that this community, if it is to succeed, not concentrate on just making a shadow clone of CoH if it wishes to take root and grow; it's going to need to offer more to bring in new folks and get more than the folks who quit before it even went offline. It has to be open to more than 'we did it this way in CoH" every time someone suggests something different; that most definitely will pigeonhole this effort and drive new players out, not in.
That all being said, I hope one day to see you all in game and everyone having open dialog with development to make a great game we can all enjoy.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
The only way I can really think of Freeform not being so overwhelming and confusing for players is placing it as an unlock for after you hit max lvl with ever power set. By that time you should have in theory learned what they all do. FreeForm open from the start would just be to much for new players. But for what the game is looking to feel and be I'm still gonna lean towards not having a free form.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
"I want all classes to be able to solo well" is not the same thing as "The game's power system needs to be open and freeform and everybody can pick everything."
Just as it's been explained that there are reasons for taking the AT/Class based route rather than the freeform route beyond "CoH did this, therefore we are doing it," "CoH did this in beta and it sucked," and "CO did this and it still sucked."
Flavor of the Month builds do NOT have to be limited to PVP. I do believe that there was a time called "City of Fire/Kins" somewhere during CoH's lifecycle.
SS/Fire Brutes (like mine) also were FotM at one point.
[color=green]BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER[/color]
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I think I need to keep my posts simpler ;)
I never equated soloing ability with the need to have FF; I merely indicated that classes may not make for the best solo experience across the board which is often the case.
I never indicated PVP was the sole issue with FF, I indicated it was perhaps clearest example of FOTM build issues and acknowledged it was a problem with FF in particular.
I acknowledged the Devs response which showed open intellectual thought and not a closed opinion limited to how CoH did it previously (which is clearly evident in some of the posts).
I expect I won't have the final post in this thread, but in any event Good Day Sir and hope to see you in game one day ;0)
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
I feel FF builds are great for people that really know the game inside and out and what powers work best , I for one like to make a toon and see what I can do with it, learn what powers work and what don't work. Some structure I want as u pick a certain archetype for that reason, if we are all in a FF arean then whats the difference between a troller and a dps or scrapper, if we can all have the same powers?
on the other topic of soloing yes I think all should have solo abilities but again if a def wants to be a solo toon then why pick that archetype? there are other way better solo builds then what is considered a team buffer, I for one loved playing trollers and corruptors and could solo but I was so much better on teams. When I felt the solo call I had scrappers and brutes and warshades and masterminds to choose from as well as tanks and stalkers who made soloing a much easier thing to do.
we all want to have what we want but really this is a game that should offer everything that CoH failed, and it sounds like the team is doing a lot to offer a huge community a free form controlled aspect to building a fun toon
Indeed.
Or why not have both FF and viable ATs?
One reason I think FF can be over whelming is because the other choice can leave a lot to be desired even to a beginner player. Thus to function properly many feel they MUST choose Freeform.
Now while ATs is cool, but in COX for example, if one soloed a lot and wanted to do it effectively prior to 50 and all the IOs and billions of influence later, it cut out most version of Defenders, some Controllers, Dominators and Corruptors and if they don't like dying often, even Blasters which all shine on teams. That leaves MMs, Brutes, tanks, Stalkers, scraps and later on Warshades/PBs (originally good luck soloing with them when getting nearly murked in one hit by voids but stunned and immediately killed in the follow up attack.). I think all ATs, of course if possible, should be viable for solo. Because many people cant play at peak times and or don't have large pool of friends to choose from. When they have few ATs for those solo times, even if they team when they can, they probably wont build a Defender if they only manage to get a team once every other week for about 30 mins at a time. Then that is less ATs they probably find they can in a viable manner without special skills can play. And tank/brute/scrapper/stalker and assuming they enjoy all those sets available for solo play, then when they build enough of them they end up leaving in a year or two and even less if a few of those soloable ATs don't suit their fancy.
Yeah I hada couple of defenders never got any to 50. Couldn't find a team often enough and the tanks brutes, found out after a while I didn't like playing scrapper too much, and stalkers were meh to me and MMs off and on. Thus that is about 3-4 ATs. After a while went through the powersets pretty quickly and after a while it wasn't as fun building another tank, another electric armor due to lack of choices that is restricted to ATs. Yet while I loved the defender on a team it was suited for solo play and made it tedious.
With FF you can build a greater variety of toons even if restricted for solo play or team play. ANd of course there are downsides as been pointed out with FF. But any game new to it or not took time to learn and FF is no different. People say 'Hey, well you learn how to play the market." when people get frustrated with the market Or how many people were immediately Blaster experts the first times they played COX? How many people the first time around dint know about taunt for tanks, or overlooked important heals in their builds? Or picked a crappy power instead of the awesome AOE for the blaster the first time around? It took some time to learn.
But not to confuse and frustrate people why not offer viable ATs and FF. Or as suggested, that could be reward of getting to 50. Freeform.
Me personally, after playing freeform, granted, I played MMOs prior and been yearning for something like freeform for long time and something less restrictive than COX ATs, and thus when I found FF it was pretty simple and ecstatic for me to the point I have serious altitis like never before and creating concepts and powers combinations I could never ever dreamed of creating in COX with the AT system. Many concepts I built with FF system came from concepts I had while playing COX and couldn't do it. In the FF supplied game, I even bought more slots, buy plenty of zen aka spend more money in that game than I ever even thought of doing in COX. But for a new player and looking at freeform, I can see how it can be overwhelming. And really I'm not sure I could actually enjoy the restrictiveness of ATs ever again now that I tasted freedom. But that is me.
And yes fro mtime to time I do team with my Freeforms and in those teams the roles are usually sorted out before jumping knee deep into the mobs. At least on the teams I been on, but granted though I mostly teamed through the CORP channel. So teaming through COX channel and ZOne may be totally different. And what a human experience is their reality. Either way, I say go with what is thought to be the best decision overall. Either one has good and bad but what ever choice, pwn it.
Why pick a defender? Because it fit the character you wanted to create. My Traps/AR defender was an entirely different character from my AR/Dev blaster, with different motivations and abilities. And he was very capable of soloing the game. Every character I had, in every AT, could do that, which is good because I spent probably 90% of my time playing solo. (That used to be a higher percentage, but I actually enjoyed the Incarnate trials. All of them I tried anyway.)
I never said to myself, "I feel like soloing, which scrapper or tank do I want to play." It was always, "Which story do I want to experience." And I could safely pick any of the 74 characters I had knowing they were each capable of soloing just fine. That is one of the things that made COH so great.
I whole hartedly agree with you, Most of the levels on my Emp/arch defender were solo. If I could solo that build, what can't be soloed?
I think the thing to remember here is that saying "solos well" is a very relative statement. What does it really mean? Does it mean they can make it through a x1+0 no boss mission reasonably sure of success, or does it have to be x3+2 with bosses? Does the speed at which you can complete a given mission matter? How about reliance on Inspirations? It is something that each of us makes a judgement call on based on our play-style, feelings, etc. and not a defined metric.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
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I would say that the speed at which you can solo *does* matter... but that is just my thought on it.
Sure, if you are careful enough and willing to take the time and patience for it, then (almost) anything can be done (on at least the minimum difficulty). For me, I found that although I could generally speaking level up solo on my fire/emp controller (at EU launch) solo, it was so slow going, that when I wasn't on a team, I waited for a friend to come online so I could get help for missions.
But there were still things around in the game that I *couldn't* necessarily do solo for a lot of it... did it improve as the game got older? I am *fairly* certain that it did... but because my solo experience with a controller was so poor, I avoided playing them and defenders *unless* I knew I had a team available.
Once bitten, twice shy as it were.
That sounds like people who use the term 'gimped' to mean 'non optimal.' Which I never really cared for, personally. There is, I think, a big difference. And you hardly had to spend 'billions' to make a good build since the game was designed around SO's and at most Ham Origins.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
I have a feeling this sort of depends on your definition of 'slow' but I had a mind/ empathy controller who was definitely a hell of a lot harder to solo in the teen-levels than the early few levels - and even easier once she got to around level thirty. This was partly by focusing on making sure I had the damaging controls better slotted (terrorize) and trying to 'set them up' to do double damage via containment. And power pool selections. Plus of course a set few bonuses from inventing.
That said, my controller was able to solo above the X1 enemy spawn, normal difficulty level.
... Of course, it helped to have things like mass confusion to thin out tough mobs.. and temporary powers. And the fact I actually *used* inspirations... and so on.
Plus you got epic power pools later on the game's life. :)
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
It was harder to solo the "support" classes earlier. But they refined things until it was possible if slower, then when they added the difficulty slider, there was not much difference in speed. There were always differences between the ATs, and even within ATs. My Inv/SS tank could handle some groups on x8/EBs but on others had to scale things back because of his weakness to psi. And I never did trick him out to do enough damage to beat AVs solo. It was possible, but I didn't care that much to spend the time and inf.
The biggest problems I had was when I first switched to a different AT and tried playing them like the last one. The tank running into the middle of a bunch of mobs is great, the emp/rad defender not so much.
Speed was never an issue for me. Happy if I can make it through missions when I couldn't find a team. But then I was never in a hurry to get to 50 with any of my characters.
Took me 732 hours to hit my 1st 50... and that was with a mixture of teaming and solo play... but i noticed that even when i was teamed up with just one other person, my levelling speed more than doubled, even if they were just another support style character. But with odd playing hours, typically off peak, it was fairly hard to find a consistent partner to team with.
And I didn't have an alt that I was playing at that point in time... I focus on one character and then work to get them up to cap, and then swap over to the next.
Sure, I could probably spend 2 hours or so working on a *single* mission, that might just get me a bub or two for total completion, but that is *slow* going, especially when other players could do it a lot faster (and still kill everything).
Containment *helped*, there is no doubt about that... but before then? I personally found it *very very* hard going solo... at least until level 32.
As an idea, I did the last 18 levels of my game about *three times* faster than it took me to get to 32.
But if the early stages of the game make it hard or annoying to make any form of noticable progress to level up, especially over a protracted period of time, you might just find that people will drop the game.
In other MMO's that the tank or healer classes are generally underplayed whilst levelling up, and that it is only at the level cap where people will generally spread out (if dual spec is present).
I understand there will always be people out there who believe that if a Superhero game system doesn't offer (or at least try to offer) "100% Free Form" it will be considered "too limiting" or somehow backward in its approach. Like you I've been playing PnP games (like Champions) for decades but perhaps your PnP background has prejudiced you to expect too much here. While I would agree that a Holy Grail goal for a Superhero MMO should be for it to be 100% Free Form I think the relatity of the situation has been proven time and time again that at least some structured class system is required for effective game balance in a computerized MMO. As I said before I still believe (as of 2013) the only way a Free Form system can completely work is if a Human GM regulates and adapts to the situation accordingly. If you look closely even CO does not offer complete 100% Free Form and many would argue its stab at it was not very successful.
I don't think anyone's saying "let's make CoT a shadow clone of CoH" just for the sake of saying that. I think CoT is going to be benefiting from the lessons of the past and provide a system that while structured will be as free and open as possible. Try to think of it as a hybrid between the unbalanced Free Form ideal and a structured class system which itself is a decades-old tried-and-tested RPG mechanic. If CoT gets it right there will be very few people who will consider it "pigeonholed" and/or be turned off by it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Mine was over 1000 hours, and he was a blaster. But a lot of that was because of exemplaring down to pay with my then girlfriend's low level characters and receiving no XP, but at least the Inf I made went to good use. I've heard about the pre-containment days of controllers, but luckily by the time I rolled one it had been introduced.
I guess what I wanted to point out in my post from earlier today was we need to put some more clarification as to what we mean when we say solos well/solos poorly, we all have our own definition, we need to be on the same page while talking about it.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Eventually the Devs of CoT will determine what "soloability" means here. Clearly that concept will have to be intrinsically baked into the foundation of the game and to do that will require some form of class control/balancing.
This is the main point I was trying to make when I said "Free Form systems require Human GM oversight" to work properly. Sure it would be nice if a computer-based superhero MMO would allow you to make a concept character whose only power is the ability to shapechange into a hamster at will. A Human GM (in a PnP setting) could make that work because he/she could dynamically adjust the game to allow for gameplay actions/activities geared specifically for hamsters. But in the realm of generically deterministic computer-based MMOs that kind of "pure" Free Form may be years or even decades away. Just about the only way a MMO could do that now would be for it to be hamster-centric by design. (i.e. City of Hamsters).
Until computer-based MMOs can actually HANDLE the chaos of Free Form properly I contend there will never be a good reason to force them to attempt it in the strictest sense. Yes a computer-based MMO can currently allow for a huge degree of character creation freedom, but that freedom will need to rest on a firm deterministic structure to keep balance where a Human GM cannot intervene.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I disagree that it necessarily takes an active GM to limit character ranges of effort in a CRPG or MMO; it requires well thought out powers and a given that some tweaking is needed over time. We are never talking about 100% FF here (no shape-shifting hamsters), we are talking about a system with "outer limits" that creates a playable range to operate within and achieve DPS, Defence, Controls etc. Some imbalance is always present, even in classed systems depending on what they are doing, and the PVP we mentioned earlier is always a sore point and conventional MMO's with PVP and classes usually are constantly nerfing and adjusting abilities as they find too many users in PVP using them (or not).
Sure, some builds may be FOTM outcomes, and some builds that people like may be less than "optimal", but that is a small sacrifice towards giving people a game with more not less freedom. I'd argue that the better thought out the powers that make up the total suite in FF system is what determines the ultimate success of that system, not just whether a class structure is forced over it or not. I'm all for AT's to help new players, and I realize that FF has challenges, but they are not insurmountable. I for one believe CoT should *reward* players with unlocking FF at end-game just to allow them to experiment and do more. Classes tend to create an every character is more less like every other one in it's class which I personally find stifling.
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
Two hours sounds a bit hyperbolic to me. Just out of curiosity, which mission, especially pre level 32, took two hours to finish off? Even on a team with two empathy/ mind controllers, pre containment, I don't recall ever taking that long in order to finish a mission- and we were pretty much roleplaying between every mob we faced.
A third of that would still be 40 minutes, which still seems like longer than it should take to solo. Did you consider taking, say, the fighting power pool?
J
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
It was my 1st character, and I was solo. I was having *incredible* trouble just staying alive, because I kept on aggroing other mobs, and getting dropped... and then starting again with all of them. There was no one available to help out, and this was pre global chat, so finding people for me on my server at off peak times pretty much sucked.
Could I have reslotted? Nope, didn't have any respecs available... Could I have picked up another power pool? Sure... if i levelled up, which meant completing the missions.
Could I have dont it better with hindsight? Sure, I could have done.. but hindsight is *always* 20/20.
It was *not* uncommon for me to spend an hour per mission at times, just because of how annoying they were.
The 2 hour one was particularly annoying, but as it wasnt a "stuck mob" or mispawned glowy... there was no point in getting in contact with a GM for help.
*edit* I was on a Fire/Emp troller, so whilst i was trying to get them held (so that they couldn't attack), the immobilizes still meant that the mobs could attack me at range...
Empathy kept me *alive* until I ran out of endurance... but in those early days of the games life, you needed every single piece of influence you could get your hands on
The first year of the game, for many builds this was quite normal. Pre-20 my BS/SR scrapper didn't dare take a timed mission because of the amount of time he had to spend recovering end. An hour per mission was typical. Two hours, for a longer mission, absolutely.
Only post-20 did the world open up for him.
Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.
Just to name a few missions that could take 2 hours to solo with many types of characters:
Defeat the Trolls' Leader, Atta
Take Down Hector's Generals (same map as Atta)
Take Out Frostfire
The reasons are many as to why we aren't going with a free form system at this time. Some of them have been stated already, so I won't repeat those. One point brought up was about game balance. I can say that it is *possible* to design a free form powers system which could meet many if not all of our balance metrics. To do so would be a huge, monumental effort atop of the already huge, momumental effot of creating the entirety of this game as is. In order to create this system it would have to be from the outset of design, involve many complexities just to create a series of powers and their associated sets. This being every power attribute and many other things. This doesn't even count our boost system which we have a lot of plans for.
We've have a lot of early design concepts we're shooting for, and the compromise from the free form system resides within what we may offer in our version of power pools, non-combat abilities, the wide range of options we intend for our boost system, and customization of powers. Suffice to say I personally believe if we can pull off all of these things the way we want, we probably won't need a free form system. It may also make it difficult to implement later down the road, I won't say never, but I will say it may not be necessary.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Sounds good. Hopefully it's not as restrictive as COX was. Many concepts had to be shelved, (and no, none of them were a bunch of gooped up powers mish mash. Yes some people that free form still build for concept believe it or not), because they wouldnt allow certain power set combination or if you pick range, that automatically means ya a squishy, and so much for building a gruff gunslinger that have a jaw that isnt made of glass. Or a FF toon that didnt mean you have to be controller/dominator or pet master and definately couldnt be a a baton swingin cop but have a pistol handy when things got rough. In COX it was one or the other. Too restrictive overall.
Umm FreeForm is Bad if it lowers ALT'ism. ;)
If you dont See Allot of ALT's, people arent that interested in the OTHER powersets. (Might need to rethink those powersets)
I may be an anomaly but I have more alts in the freeform system than I ever could think of in the old cox method. Then again in CO I came across more than dozen people that had over 45 toons. A few had up between 75-90 toons. One guy had 94 alts. Most people I come across have in CO have a bunch of alts, many all freeforms and some a mixture of the ATs and freeforms.
Most of those people I met with high amount of alts bought many of their slots (money for the game) and many had a bunch of 40s.
In COX I had more slots than alt ideas. Although ideas wasn't the only factor, a big chunk of the factor but not the the entire factor of it. As since I started I was overseas meaning I had to play at odd times than regular players which meant teams were a bit hard to come by and thus had to pick things that could stand on their own during the leveling up process. Then some ATs, just didn't like very much for my playstyle (blasters, controllers and later scrappers). So there go another three ATs down which left mostly tanks/brutes and stalkers. Then with not much luck with RNG rolls, that killed the sets made from defense stat like SR, Ice, and such. Then when I chose the primary and secondary say like one of my favorites, electric armor and electric melee. For the most part I was stuck with using electricity only in melee form. Couldn't zap anyone (although curiously, the enemy mob had this ability). Compared to with freeform I created a cop based toon that used the baton and was a built in taser (electricity).
But one point I didn't notice is that yeah some people will just mishmash powers together to be uber. But like said about the market. most people are actually in the middle just using their creative juices. Why restrict them in order to stop a relative few from mish mashing? And with limited power slots, not like they can grab every uber power out there anyways.
I think freeform encourages creativity in toon building. But yeah, there is up and downs to either system. Hell even with the restrictive AT method, there was FoTM that many people gravitated to even to the point where if ya didn't have such and such power or play this way with such and such build or slotted this way or that way, ya gimped. COX wasn't my first game but it was the first place where I heard gimped being used on nearly daily basis to describe certain ATs and combinations while certain ones were considered the FOTM. i7-i13 especially in PVP, if it was a stalker or scrapper 98% of the time it was a spines/regen with ss/sj. Rarely came across a defender that wasn't radiation or empathy from i4-i20 at least. And stoner galore. In fact if ya wasn't a stone tank, many teams refused to pick you up for many TFs especially STF (MLTF).
Ahhhh.... If you're gonna Roll so many Toons ANYWAYS, why are you complaining? :/
I thought FF was there to LIMIT the number of toons you want to feel UBBER on. :/
I still dont get FF! I might have missed something. :P
I had over 180 characters in CoX and still hadn't created 'one of every possible combination'. CO doesn't really lead me to want to try that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'll agree that if a Superhero MMO (even circa 2013) has a very large amount of time and resources it can approach the happy semblance of a pure Free Form system without having to worry with trying to be 100% Free Form. As you suggest 100% may be a virtual impossibility for a MMO, but if a game were able to strive towards say 70-80% of that goal I'd contend you've have a very successful MMO on your hands in that regard.
I get that you believe CoH did not go far enough towards Free From for you, and that you feel CO got closer to that goal. My hopes are that the Devs of CoT will not only take the lessons learned from BOTH of these games but will have the time and resources to actually do something about it. As I think you'll agree it's a relatively hard thing for a MMO (that has to fundamentally rely on some kind of class structure) to be able to "simulate" something that players will be able to accept as a balanced compromise Free Form hybrid.
All I'm suggesting is that based on the nature of this effort (a Kickstarter game with relatively limited funding) we'll have to accept the realities that compromises will have to be made. Balancing Free Form in a MMO universe is lofty goal so I seriously wouldn't expect to see something light-years beyond what CoH or CO managed to do in this area unless someone decides to drop a few extra million into the Kickstarter bucket.
Ultimately I suspect we're going to get something with CoT that will be as close to pure Free Form as really makes sense for most people given the circumstances.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I just like not feeling limited in the type of creations I can make much. A little more freedom is good for me. And you said it limits altism, and from what I see that is not the case. But of course it depends.
For some COX way enough. Hell, for that matter, some people Feel classic MMO classes were not limiting at all. You had plenty of classes to choose from. Some people is good with one class and building it over and over with different type of gear and that is enough alting for them and can get why someone would want or need more.
You're thinking too in-the-box here. Do not forget, the powers and the animations are independent. You pick to take "Super-Heavy-Attack" and choose to use a sword attack for it, viola.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Truer words seldom spoken...,
- ...it's not about 'what can solo'?...anyone can solo if they really want to, that's not the point - the point is: what kind of experience do you want to have while playing? The difference between an Ice Blaster and an Ice Defender is that they both have something they can bring to a team...a Blaster brings the damage, the Defender brings the buffs/debuffs, though both can solo. The Blaster can solo faster, but the Defender solos more safely...it's merely a question of how you prefer playing - CoX provided that kind of variety. ^_^
Another thing to think about is that while CoT will have Archetypes, they have much more variety thanks to Specifications and Tertiary Pools. While your primary determines your overall "role" on a team, your Specification determines how you go about it in one of three ways, in CoH terms you now have 3 flavors of "Defender" that each have pros and cons while still retaining the role and overall playstyle of a "Defender". Combine that with the ability to take pool power versions of sets you normally don't have access to, and there should be plenty of creative ways to build up the character you always wanted.
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[color=red]Tech Team[/color]
I don't see why it would be bad to improve on the design. Classes aren't really necessary for the game to be good. In fact, I can see significant advantages to specializing through power and attribute selection only.
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This summarizes my hopes and dreams for CoT. Check it out if you'd like.
I would only like to see freeform power picking within a Archtype, if the powers are balanced out. A example would be to build a elemental or magic using Hero. So lets say its the ranger you would have a fire, electric, water, ice blast etc.
Of course this would mean that the powers are pretty balanced and close to each other, or at least the first 2-3 would be able to be switched.
I strongly echo the assertion that freeform only works [i]well[/i] with a human game master devoting the sort of time and attention that's not possible in an MMO. "Works well" is different from "can be made to work."
Another issue that has not been touched on as far as i can see is that one of the primary drivers behind freeform character design in tabletop roleplaying is the extremely open-ended nature of tabletop roleplaying. An MMO will necessarily be a lot less flexible, and of course the rules won't change in mid-adventure as the GM assesses things and adjusts on the fly, adding elements for the players who took special sense and social skills, for example. The MMO may have a LOT of things to do other than fighting, but it will still emphasize certain powers over others and that will tend to remove some of the elements that make freeform so desirable in truly open-ended, human-monitored roleplaying.
Tabletop GMing is an art form; we will not be able to recreate its finer points in an online MMO. I'm not saying people are wrong to want freeform, but that it won't be as rewarding as many of us remember from our tabletop days.
Captain of Phoenix Rising
This one can go on for pages.
Just think like a developer. Of course everyone wants to have specify their powers in particular fashion but imagine the balancing. One you'd introduce one new power, all of them will be thrown off balance (example: now the tank can Nova or so can a Scrapper.)
To be part of your future.
That doesnt sound like City of Heroes. I want City of Heroes!... but on Crack! :)
It's already next gen. The visuals are amazing so far and usually when you have fans building the next gen, things always are better.
WoW was created from the players of Everquest.
To be part of your future.
I'm not an advocate for the freeform model. CO's freeform makes balance among builds much less likely. You can learn the uber builds or you can pick less effective powers because the uber builds get boring.
I support a freeform system that has large restrictions. For instance on top of their innate characteristics, give the classes defined power slots.
I would be open to the devs defining our power progression based on our classification. Partisans opening power is a Ranged attack, At level 5 they unlock a Team Buff, At Level 7 they unlock a Ranged AoE Attack.. defined all the way to endgame.
OR
If you don't want to define what characters CAN do, then define what they CANNOT do .. example.. a Tank cannot buff self offense. A Ranger cannot buff defense.
The biggest issue with freeform and balance is how you deal with buffs, debuffs, healing and crowd control.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Chance, where did this quote from GFN come from? It seems like that's where I'll find most of what I want to know about the CoT character creation (at least as currently planned ^_^). I don't recall seeing it in the KS updates, and it doesn't seem to be in this thread...
[rushes off to do some searching]
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I heard something along those lines in a podcast interview or two - can't remember where or when. Basically, the devs are planning on making the "tertiary powers" list pretty broad. One example I remember hearing is if you have a flying Stalwart (Defense) with Melee (Super-Strength), you can give him laser beam eyes through the tertiary power pool.
People must realize "rules,limits and distinctinction are good and fun", and as has already been stated, without them you get the lowest common denominator of homogenization in not only the builds but the quality of player. An MMorpg where each player is essentially self sufficient leads to a populace of selfish soloers who only cooperate when absolutely necessary, and even that only for personal gain (see WoW). It also encourages a more aggressive asshat (again see WoW) because you have no real accountability for being one when you can accomplish everything you want, except raids, by yourself. Coh/Cot has a legendary community born out of the fact we needed each other, leaned on each other and played TOGETHER which built something even the loss of Paragon City couldn't destroy. Why then should we now, so close to realizing what no other displaced game community has really ever done, sow the seeds of our own destruction by appealing to soloers? If people want a place where a raidfinder gets a bunch of strangers together in what can only loosely be called a "team" for a nigh conversationless zergfest that disbands as soon as they get their desired drops, WoW is still open for business.
Speaking of teambuilding, as a former recruiter, I can't imagine the headache of interviewing players I attempt to invite, at random mind u, as to what the hell he/she actually IS everytime I try and add someone. Which would be challenge enough without everybody being able to avoid needing anybody passed a certain level. This is not an fps where u just switch perks and gear whenever it fits the next map, it's an mmoRPG where the social aspects, and the JOURNEY, are as important as the destination, and formlessness doesn't serve those goals as a community well at all.
I always thought COX was a bit too team oriented but each time in mass the opposite is stated that it's a soloist game with teaming optional besides a few things like TF/SFs?
Now accountability is a different animal. That sounds like lack of moderation if people are being asshats just to be asshats because they can get away with it.
To me though, when a game do everything in it's power to force teaming, just to say, "See everyone get along and team." it looks like they really don't believe people would team up with each other and still in a way they are teaming only because they have to and or need to either way. The down side of course is that they basically cut out a whoel section of players that may not be able to team 24/7 or play during the peak hours or fit their schedule around everyone else play time. And also potentially cut out people that enjoy teaming when they can but solo to.
People like feeling powerful in their own character especially the ones the yactually take time and build. Besides raids and stuff, in WoW one could solo. They stand on their own without having to have a team and when they are In the mood for a raid, they can join one. And thus they have a large population which ends up helping people that want to team.
Solo players are not lepers nor is solo style of play a disease. In COX especially later sometimes the ability to solo was a necessary as there wasn't that many people on at all times every day, and then not many people may be interested in that particular mission at that particular moment you have time to play.
One thing that actually sinks MMOs is when they try to force one way or another instead of letting the player choose. Especially when they force team play, because they forget each player I human. And while some are expert social bugs and can hop in a game the first day and havea massive group of friends before the night fall, some people take longer to come out of their shell and make friends. Some people didn't join an SG or team the first few months of pay others, took even longer before they became and got the hang of the social thing. Just as some say there are other games to play if they like to solo. There is Facebook and Twitter available if one want to be social every time they log on. The games that usually succeed are the ones that hit the widest base of type of players. WHy come all this way to fall short due to catering only to the most social people in the COX community and kicking or treating like second class gamers everyone else to the curb even if they played COX simply because they had to or preferred to play solo?
Especially in the hero realm where just about every hero was or still is self sufficient and they team up fro mtime to time but overall, each have their own.
Over all though why limit options when the goal is to create more options? If teaming is so popular whether they are self sufficient or not, they will still team. If they not, maybe for that day they want to take a break and catch up on some missions they missed while teaming and go at their own pace, why take that away? Not everyone that play solo 100% always play solo and people that team 100% don't always team. Majority of people do a mixture of both, with enjoyment.
Although I think teaming was a bit over rewarded and the team gated stuff sucked when not enough people on or interested, overall, what made COX great was that you could do both instead of feeling forced to team. Which in games that do, have much more problems and are far from friendly.
While WoW have it's asshats there are plenty more people are just as friendly if not more friendly than many of the COX players. Some COX players also played and still play WoW. But every community have those people. There were plenty even in the COX community and they really showed in the end when the moderators mostly left. Because they knew they could get away with it. To prevent bad behavior, forcing teaming or soloing or forcing everyone to play defenders, would not solve that problem. Problems like that can only be solved with enforcement of the written rules in a fair concise stable reliable manner.
I think you may have missed the point of my post, it's not that you must team ALL the time, I teamed and soloed/duoed. It's that catering primarily to soloers by allowing them to build jack of all trades from the start is death to teaming, tactics and a cordial community.
I believe CoX did this when they started making stamina and travel powers easier (or free) to get.
That in my mind made the game FAR more solo friendly...
I see.
Well cordial community is irrelevant to what or how a person can build. Maybe death to some tactics yes, but doubt the death to teaming because people will team if they want to team still. If they were teaming because simply their character cant solo, then that wont build cordial community anyways because then they are not teaming because they want to or find it enjoyable. They are teaming because they must.
Jack of all trades- good at everything to get along in the game, master of none. I think no toon should not be able to get along on their own when need be.
Come to think of it when I teamed I usually teamed with a toon that didn't need to team but it was fun when I teamed because I wanted to, not because I had to. Usually when people team because they must depend on others, people know this and usually it ends up anything but cordial. What I found, usually that the team leader of regular mission team seemed to be more level because at any point, someone could simply leave and get the job done on their own if they became a butt. On TF it was different story, many became a butt because they knew it required a team and it took a while to form a team to get it done assuming there is enough players to form another team to get it done. They took advantage of the situation to be a butt as much as they can (this is mostly noticed on Victory where TF teams were very hard to come by.)
I think over all if people want to team, regardless of what others build, they will team and those make the best teams. With people that want to team. What adds tension and a situation not enjoyable is when everyone know they teaming simply because they cant get it done on their own. Then that is when on forums or in chat channels people start to say their toon isn't powerful, it's weak, they have to depend on others, which creates more tension, which ends up a sour mood in the community which then leads back to the in game then and the cycle continues until teaming is viewed more as a a chore a hassle and when it gets too much of a hassle or chore, people leave especially while in the chase for balance, the nerfs start flying to make sure no one can stand on their own.
Team players are catered to all the time, why not cater to other styles of play from time to time?
With regard to the Fitness pool being made inherent, they were bowing to an acknowledged fact that almost everyone picked up Fitness already for Stamina. I had a few alts that didn't, but they had other methods of keeping their Endurance filled. Having Fitness as an inherent opened up a couple new powers that could be taken, which helped, but didn't add any new enhancement slots to populate them with.
yeah fitness pool didn't actually make it more solo friendly since mostly everyone took it anyways solo or not.
And travel powers to me that made teaming easier more than solo friendly. Now it made it easier for a toon that prior wouldn't have a travel power to keep up with higher level toons and teams. I.E. most pre travel power toons didn't bother with teaming with higher levels that were doing something like IP missions due to distance especially if there wasn't a TPer on the team. They would take forever getting around. When they lowered the travel power standard in levels and make more temp travel powers available, now that same low level toon had not problem getting around and could join teams and keep up relatively with the higher levels. especially. That travel power change benefited teams more than solo players than anything.
Indeed. CO was exactly like this. Cookie-cutter solo tankmages everywhere. Nearly nonexistent community (that I saw).It was a big part of the reason why I did not stay with the game for very long.
Well, because this game is being designed as an MMORPG in the spirit of CoH? And that means characters with certain specializations. I mean - I'm pretty sure people WILL be able to solo just fine, but the impression I get is that it's sort of like PvP - it's not the primary focus of the game but it will be there.
Multi-player Online Game. Multi-player doesn't mean must team. It just means multiple players, which meaning in one game at the same times that may or may not be going for the same goal. But hopefully the case is that it can be soloed a bit.
CO, has a community in fact a pretty deep community. I don't think many here give it any chance much. They go in for few days, notice that everyone is not flocking to them and leave saying there is no community. I think many COX players forgot how it feels to be the new guy and that it's not everyone that just so happen to come across that nice guy that took them under their wing when they started COX. That is the exception not the norm even in COX. Most people that started COX experienced the same thing that people are expericing when they go to CO. They are new people, the community is going on without many noticing that they exist, and no one yet told them where the hot spots are and how to meet people. Just as it said about people that gave COX that same chance and immediately left, or said I nthe past in COX game that the community sucks and everyone is too busy playing with their own friends to worry about new people. 1) give it chance. 2) go out and make friends. 3) It takes some time 4) join a team.
While on COX many found that stuff easy to say to someone else and look quizzical on people who said it was hard to find teams or find friends and it's cliques galore while ignoring new people. But now that many on the other side of the barrel, hopefully they feel now where those people was coming from.
In CO people do team, there is usually more than few teams forming for something in zone chat, which for some reason, most people turn off. And also some COX players have to go beyond the COX channel in looking for stuff. A lot of CO players have no idea that COX channel exist but if that is all where COX players hang at simply because it's other COX players then of course trhey wont meet anyone new or the community. Got to step out the box a bit. Alerts, great opportunity to talk to people especially the non-timed ones. Although many people don't take the opportunity. There is even a RP crowd hanging around that have their own website, and chat channels for in character and out of character. There is the PVP group, with their expert group and the learning group that share tips about PVP. Then there is lair group, that all they do is run lairs and big up people to run lairs. The community is out there just like the COX community was but like any game and being new to it, it can seem over whelming until ya get the swing of things.
But at least now, hopefully those that looked at people that were new and quickly left because they didn't feel the community love now know how it feels and realize that it's not as simple when ya don't have a group of buddies waiting for ya when ya first log in.
Cuookie cutters. COX had cookie cutters, WoW have cookie cutters. And CO have cookie cutters. Majority of players are not cookie cutters and have variety of powers and strength and weakness like any other game. In fact I think I seen more cookie cutters in COX than any game mostly due to the limitations within each AT. Many people grab a scrapper, go to the forum, use their billions to build the posted uber build and repeat process. CO actually I haven't seen many tank mages hanging abut. A few yes, but most are actual themed based toons like ninjas, darkness, angels, brutes ,regular tanks types, and etc. Yeah some build a hodge podge of powers simply to aim to be uber but usually that is not even close to the case and there is more variety in CO as far as builds than I seen in COX. But like anything a certain way is popular, like prior to ED, everyone was fire tanks. or regen scrappers and fire blasters. Even after ED, fire blasters were everywhere, Rad for defenders or empath, SR for scrappers and stalkers, SS for brutes (after energy melee nerf which up to that point was the commonly used melee power.) earth/fire dominators, throw a rock and you'd hit about 5 of them in a group of 7 Doms. See controller good chance they are illusion. Then of course IOs was supposed to add a bit more variety but still people went for the forum posted build and took it as "This is how it must be done or be gimped" After IO, at level 50, it was rare to see a Dom without perma domination for example. Variety depends on the people not the selections. Just people choose to not use the selections available does not mean that those selections should be taken away to funnel them into the under used stuff. And the other part of that is balancing. Like WM especially for tanks were rare to see. But SS tanks were plentiful. Should SS for tanks be taken away to create more "variety" of toons. One of the reasons I left COX was lack of variety. It got to a point where I could basically guess what powers a person had and how they slotted simply by looking at their AT. Not to mention I was running out of combinations. Melee basically got the same powers and then you had squishy range powered toons. Looks like they will have more powers and ways to put it together for more variety. But unless everything is exactly the same do the same damage and etc., some powers or sets will simply be more popular than others. Once shields hit. It was rare to come across any other brute build besides electric/shield combination once word got out that they could have shield charge and the electric teleport power, two high damage powers that basically kills just about anything within those two hits if not outright from the first hit.
I played CO for a long time. I am a Lifetime Member and was in the closed Beta. The things that contributed to less teaming for CO included (in no particular order):
The option to freebuild
The limit of 5 per team (this sank it for me and my 6 friends)
The worst teaming mechanics in history (including sidekicks getting the same XP no matter what, thus permanently locking them at lower levels)
An almost utter lack of SG support including Bases that are merely window dressing
Every character I've ever seen in a comic could go out and do their own tasks. Trying to balance the game when everyone can solo will be tough but it can be done. Sure, your Ranger has access to some secondary or tertiary defenses. This doesn't mean he can take on EVERY foe solo. What it means (I hope...) is that you won't immediately die the first time a Stun grenade goes off nearby.
Build the game smarter. Make teaming AND solo play fun. Then everyone can play and help the game grow.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Yup.
And neither way have to be forced. If one way especially teaming have to be forced, then it probably means that it's not actually fun to the players and they do it because they must, same thing with soloing. Make them both fun, and ability for the players to choose which way, then those that want to do either will find it enjoyable without having to be forced funneled into either direction.
Kind of in the middle of CO and COX. Multi player doesnt automatically mean Must team must team must team must be social must be social, must play with someone 24/7 every task every step of the way. Early multiplayer games, someone could play with you but if they left, you still could play the game no problem. And then later they could return and play with ya like nothing happened. That is how Multiplayer operated throughout the years. Then some reason when Online and RPG got added on, some people thought it meant must team not supposed to do anything solo. "Its an MMORPG" they say.
CO kind of make teaming tedious. COX greatly rewards teaming, have team gated content, and basically nudge the player into teaming especially incarnate and frown upon soloing.
I have played CoX for almost 8 years, I played CO for as long as I could stand it, and I have played TSW (the secret world) from beta till the present...
CoX had primary & secondary powersets, pool powers, epic pool powers, and enhancement slots.
CO had a complete mess of a power tree system.
TSW has 500+ powers you choose from by way of 7 active and 7 passive abilities, somewhat limited to your main and offhand weapon choices.
CO results in about a dozen play styles total. Using pretty much the same powers in the same ways.
TSW results in about a dozen play styles total, Using pretty much the same powers in the same ways.
CoX resulted in my making over 40 characters in total, all of which had a unique feel, and I could have easily say that for over a hundred characters but for the limited quantity of alt character slots.
Lesson: a freeform tree is just a way of giving you access to the min-maxed best choices so that you end up an almost exact cookie cutter of everyone else attempting your group role. Powers grouped by sets, which can be paired up with differing synergies, further diversified by slotting... results in hundreds of valid yet unique playstyle combinations.
No other game (other than CoX i mean) has ever come even "slightly" close in terms of variety of play-style and replay-ability with alts. Not even slightly.
COX was good, but in CO I was able to come up with more ideas for different power combinations and concepts. But then again I really dont min/max.
Alot of concepts had to be put on ice that I wanted to play in CO due to limitations but were all been able to be made in CO. But again, I play more for concept and not min/maxing. With each different playstyle and more than dozen within myself alone. Then of course adding the playstyle of the other players, I personally seen more playstyles and more combinations of characters and how they work more than I seen in COX. In COX, a tank played like a tank mostly, melee based, blasters played like blasters while being squishy. And usually slotted very similar down to the powers. Especially after IOs came about when every Dom it seems was slotted for perma Dom and played the same way and used the same strategy. Different players but same playstyle. In COX, I felt the playstyles were limited much more so than CO.
Although of course with a system like CO, many people will simply grab the "best powers" and end up with cookie cutter builds. Then again, COX had it's cookie cutter builds per AT. Thus I doubt more options were the cause of cookie cutter builds as both game had about the same ratio of people that did cookie cutter. That seems more depended on the player's aim.
In CO, I doubt anyone is using my set up for cookie cutter nor did I get the idea for my build from cookie cutter build of someone else although most in the stable are actualy viable to take up most tasks at hand but each must do it differently. Thus in CO, I actually have more toons created within the past year than the combinations I been able to make with different feels in COX. But then again of course MWV from person to person
Blizzard faced the same problem with Diablo III. Despite the fact that you could free form pick your abilities, the playerbase quickly settled on the MUST HAVE abilities and regarded everything else as trash (and deservedly so in many cases). When you can datamine player build choices and find that over 95% of the builds out there have 1 specific ability offered by that class ... and that anyone who doesn't have that ability essentially isn't playing endgame content ... it's not hard to figure out what happened.
As far as I'm concerned, any kind of "completely open" powers system is one that's just BEGGING to be min/max analyzed into the ground. I agree with DeepThought that such systems rarely yield much in the way of Build Diversity ... let alone any meaningful kinds of Strategy And Tactics diversity. That's because the Conventional Wisdom all too often devolves down to "just get X" as the standard answer (ala "just get Hasten") to every problem.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
yeah. That does tend to happen.
I think, I say again, I THINK, if missed the first two times reread it once more and repeat process until it's gotten before moving on.
I think, a system less restrictive than COX but a bit more tight than CO would be optimal. In COX, playing a tank, even with all the power choices, it still boiled down to the same strategy especially in team play. Basically, be taunt bag of HP regardless of power set. If one wanted to do the fighting as melee they were expected to play a brute or prior to side switching, a scrapper. Blasters were expected to fire off their "nuke" as often as possible and thus expected to have recharge debuffs and or hasten to fire off those AOEs faster. Any other way was considered gimped and unattractive to teams. Again, regardless of powers they took. Thsu in essence the playstyle choices that were expected were limited firstly to ATs. Tanks-supposed to tank. Blasters supposed to do damage. Defenders are supposed to heal or people will tolerate buffs/debuff defenders. But Defender doing damage or attacks? Who do they think they are? Gimped Blasters? :p Controllers/Doms are supposed to control the mob. Scrappers are supposed to do the melee killing. Which ended up with limited tactics being used on the average team. Tank taunts, gather up the mob cotnroller lay down the controls, defender either heals or debuff the mob and the scrapper and blaster go to town. Repeat whether it's mission or TFs. Same old tactic. Even though many other tactics can be used just as with freeform peopel can choice all sorts of powers and different ways to play, but yeah usually players gravitate to one way and that one way becomes a must which becomes a MUST do it this WAY or be kicked from the team and be considered gimped after the min.maxers establish what is MUST and what is GIMPED. And thsu it becomes believed that is how it supposed to be. Tnak forum section for example, when people post their build the most common comments were "where is your taunt. You're supposed to take taunt." "you're a gimped scrapper without taunt." and "Why are you focusing on damage? You're supposed to focus only on taking damage."
It should be more optional and less restrictive than that. But CO goes in the opposite direction, probably too much for some tastes.
In CO, no telling who is what or who does what. Just kill everything that moves. And again, people gravitate towards something that works, that then becomes the must, which becomes the MUST have this and play like this or be considered gimped! Although less problematic since most stuff is not team gated, but then when teams do happen, same builds, same play style, can be seen even though there are tons of options and the options are this time not even limited by strict tank must tank, defenders must heal in game built mechanics. The choice is there but then, min/max come in and state what is MUST and what is GIMPED.
I'll dispute this characterization insofar as my own personal experience(s) playing an Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker ... including on Tanker Tuesdays (where I once won the MVP award from the Team Lead in their after action writeup on the Tanker Forum).
My build was DESIGNED to be an aggro magnet ... even moreso than is usual for a Tanker. Indeed, after that particular Tanker Tuesday run against Imperius, the Team Leader complained that throughout the [i]entire task force[/i] he "couldn't get no aggro!" because I was stealing it all! The thing is, my powers weren't just chosen for their Taunt stacking, but also for their Debuffing potential. Chilling Embrace just [i]SLOWED DOWN[/i] everything around me to such an extent that I could survive even the hits that leaked past my Defenses (even with Praetorians inflicting Defense Debuffs on me).
Despite what might look at first glance to be a somewhat "underpowered" Tanker build, the Ice/Ice Tanker was really a build that was practically "Brute-ish" in how it wanted to be played. It was an extremely "offensive" oriented Tanker, in that just like with Brutes and Fury (and not wanting to slow down because of decay of Fury), the Ice/Ice Tanker had [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Ice_Armor.Energy_Absorption]Energy Absorption[/url] that pretty much dictated a "herd 'em up and SLURP 'em down!" kind of playstyle for dealing with opposition. It therefore played a lot like Dark Armor does, in that respect, or even a Warshade, come to think of it. Playing as an Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker, my build strategy was all about being the "flypaper" that Foes got stuck to until they dropped. The build was multiplicatively augmented in power by taking on groups, and left starving for endurance when facing off against a single Foe, so there was always this sense of needing to "move on to the next group" that was very akin to a Brute mentality.
Heh.
I had a Storm/Dual Pistols Defender named Sidhe Bang ... and on more than one occasion I found myself herding and "cloth tanking" a pile of Mobs (including Lord Recluse at one point!) simply because the "tank" on the team couldn't do the job adequately enough to protect everyone else. HERDicane was simply invaluable, and slotted for To Hit Debuff was practically an "offensive super reflexes set" Power in its own right, all by itself.
After playing a Hess TF in Striga one time, more than one other player in the PuG I was running with was inspired to try out a Storm/Dual Pistols Defender for themselves, because I kept turning the tide of battle almost every time I showed up on the scene of ANY fight. They were just simply awestruck by seeing what a Defender could do to shift the battle in everyone's favor.
Sidhe Bang was also plenty of fun for running Incarnate content, particularly the TPN mission. ^_~
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
And you just pinpointed even more than I did about being limited by AT and how they are expected to play when it came to tanks.
With your storm you took the tanking role because the tank couldnt protect his team mates, as he is expected to do simply because of the AT. Many teams refused to even team with a storm just because yea they can be played in different ways, but they are not playing how a defender or in most cases a controller are supposed to play. On top of the knockback thing they have. Maybe the tank on the team there while pickign the tank for higher defense wanted to play more like a brute instead of being simply the guy that is uspposed to taunt and stand around.
"My build was DESIGNED to be an aggro magnet"
And that is the mindset that people expect tanks to be. If you are a tank, others players expect you to be the aggro magnet, that is your purpose, regardless of powers chosen, ya suppsoed to be the aggro magnet. And when they not, just like you said in you second post, when one doesnt or is playing a tank and not doing that role that a tank is supposed to do "because the "tank" on the team couldn't do the job adequately enough". And even here, since he isnt the aggro magnet, the tank is in quotation marks insinuating that he isnt even a tank. That is what I'm talking about. The limits of roles by AT and the expectation of those roles simply due to AT regardless of powers chosen. It shouldnt be that limited in expected playstyle simply due to AT that one has chosen.
And of course this is even before getting into the addictional limitations of melee takes the hits and range are squishy limitations that ATs imposed.
Of course freeform throws those limitations out of the window. But at what cost?
Hate to break it to you, but in a mass combat situation it's just [i]too darn helpful[/i] to have SOMEBODY acting as an Aggro Magnet. That's what "Tanking" is all about in the popular mindset ... drawing aggro so as to free up your teammates to unleash their powers and abilities in greater safety and with greater impunity. That's just how Combined Arms Tactics [i]work[/i] in a game like this if you've got any kind of teamwork going on. There are roles that need to get filled, and if one player can't do it, then someone else needs to step up and fill that role.
The only objection I'd have to that is an assumption that there's only One Way to *BE* an Aggro Magnet. THAT assumption is just downright false, and provably so. Kheldians in their Dwarf Forms could be Aggro Magnets. Storm Defenders could, in a pinch, act as an Aggro Magnet (terrain permitting). Illusion Controllers could act as an Aggro Magnet.
However, that said, the explicit design INTENT of the Tanker Archetype was to make them the "premiere" Aggro Magnet that surpassed all others in that capacity ... because, somebody's got to be "best" at that job, right? I had no problem with that design decision. It was also perfectly possible to build a Tanker who was "poor" at Aggro Control. Willpower Tankers were famously behind the curve (by design!) in being able to operate as an Aggro Magnet. They could still "do it" ... but they often did it by different or alternate means from what other types of Tankers would use to achieve the same ends.
However, as many a Healer has been forced to say in chat ... "I can heal many things, but I can't heal STUPID." If someone plays their character in a way that is either "dumb" or just patently unhelpful for a team, someone else needs to step up to "do their job for them" because they aren't adequately fulfilling a role in what a team needs to be efficient and successful in play. The beauty of the CoH system was that there were a *variety* of ways to fulfill a wide range of roles, such that you often didn't "need" to have a Specialist to fill that particular role on a team. Other Archetypes could (and did!) perform all kinds of cross-Archetype sorts of services, thereby mitigating the standard party makeup of 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS that you see in other games like WoW or TERA and their ilk.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/645893
Power Progressions and I'm IN! I still hope we get SOME choice in these progressions but overall I'm extremely happy to hear that even tho powers will by archetype specific progressions they will NOT be limited in concept
I really hope we get to choose the damage type too. While my character's powers may act as "Mind Control" and I want my brain to have radio waves coming off it (usually looking like sonic powers) the concept is that she's using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) and thus doing electric/particle damage. So enemies with resistance to electric damage are unharmed, but enemies with psychic/paranormal resistance are still taking the (hopefully DoT) damage.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Yup they could and there were others that could fulfill the role. But I think you are misundertsanding the part of expected. Wouldnt by definition a tank, still be a tank, even if they wasnt an aggro magnet. AKA, even though a tank could hold aggro, a tank also could do other things and if one put focus into those other things, especially when many things can fill the aggro magnet role, then why are they considered a quote on quote tank or gimped or not doing what a tank supposed to do instead of a tank simply playing in a different way.
And I agree, the assumption that being an aggro magnet is false. Yet that didnt stop many players and teams either calling a tank without taunt for example a "tank" or out right kicking from the team because they feel that a tank cant be an actual tank without taunt.
And yeah in situations like that, Somebody doing what you described is helpful. But that doesnt mean someone playing a tank should have to be solely expected to be their only function or else they are a "tank". Especially when others on various builds can simply step in and fill that role. Meaning that whether or not a tank is built by thep layer to simply taunt and let other do the killing or they are more focused in doing the killing themselves and less focused on aggro management doesnt make them or shouldnt make less of a tank and or instead a "tank" But they are still a tank that plays a different way.
With ATs though as I said, that create the mindset that Tanks must do this and that and other ATs must do this and that, and from there that becomes the accepted real or percieved norm and nyone out that norm is percieved as gimped or playing outside the norm which then manifest itself in limitations of how players are expected to play, which end up tanks have this and do this or be outcasted. Like I seen many times over in COX with the common mindset that tanks are indeed being unhelpful to the team and as many put it useless if they are doing anything other than taunting. If they instead focus more of out putting damage, which I thought weould be helpful to the team as it help kill the mob and less focus on merely being a taunt bag, usually the reply to that is that they are not being a tank, or being useless, or should of played a brute or scrapper, and in many cases are simply kicked from the team because they are not playing in a manner that commonly percieved as how tank is supposed to be played.
A Tank can be "more than just a Tank" of course, but the problem crops up when there's no one else on the team who is really suitable for the role and so you're expected to do the part of what your Archetype is best known for and literally designed to do. There were times when I had to tell an Empathy Defender to stop healing and feel free to start "Offending" because we just didn't need the healing that much and could really use more DPS with the way we were rolling.
There were always going to be times when a player would build a character who worked against type. Petless Mastermind. Offender. Blapper. Scranker (or if you prefer it the other way, "Tapper"). I always considered my main, Redlynne, a MA/SR/Soul Mastery Scrapper to be more of a Scranktroller build (of all things), and I would often bill myself to teams as being something of a "Pocket Tank" as opposed to being a Real Tank (and had since about Issue 3 or 4).
The disappointment of others, however, sets in when you've got a character of a particular Archetype who can't even "Do" what that archetype is supposed to be all about.
A Scrapper that does lousy damage? What's the point?
A Tanker who can't hold (let alone get) aggro? What's the point?
A Blaster that only does piddly poor teensy-weensy damage? What's the point?
A Controller who can't Control/Mez anything? What's the point?
A Defender who can't Buff/Debuff anybody or anything (and I include "healing" as a specialized sort of Buff in that category)? What's the point?
If you're on a team with two Tankers and one of them isn't as good at holding aggro as the other, there's nothing wrong with taking up the Off Tank role and leaving the Main Tank role to someone else. That's FINE. But when you're the only person on the team who "ought to" be able to fill that role better than anyone else [i]because that's what your Archetype is designed to do[/i] ... and you either can't or won't or whatever ...
The whole problem with the "r u h34l0r?" crowd was the mistaken assumption that ONLY Defenders could heal competently (when several types of Controllers can do that too just fine thank you), AND that the only type of Defender that should exist is the Empathy Defender. That's just dumb both coming and going ... but there are plenty of narrow minded people in the world who don't understand what can't fit inside their Philosophy.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yup.
But with the point thing, while very valid, there is a point outside those things especially in an AT system. Like a tank that cant hold aggro. They play that set because they prefer the scrapper style but wanted a bit more defense so they can dish out more and worry less about survival. Scrappers that dont do damage, may have wanted more focus on defense but rather not play a tank and be expected to hold aggro. Or for both, they wanted to play the other set but the power was limited to that AT, such as war mace. They may wanted to play a scrapper and play like a scrapper but War mace was not available to scrappers at the time, same with tankers and katanas or someone who otherwise would play a tank and thus build their scrapper more so for defense but liked SR.
Or some liked the illusion powerset but didnt care too much for controlling much thus ended up with weaker than most controllers that are normally slotted control ability and much more like a blaster with illusion pets, something not available to blasters.
And so on. There is a point even with those taken into consideration but due to AT restrictions, some simply chose the closest to their desired way of playing or power sets without paying much mind behind the meaning of that particular AT and the expected job of that AT which then leaving people questioning what is the point of a tanker that cant hold aggro. Which as I said is a valid question. But due to limitations of ATs, the expectation is to fulfill that role. Sure there may be times when others can fulfill that role but as you said, when it's the only tank, it's expected to tank because they are a tank AT. Which then leads to a playstyle either viewed as not helping the team or a playstyle the tan kplayer may not find enjoyable "taunt, grab aggro, let the others do the damage.Rinse repeat." which then means that player playstyle and how they wish to play is solely depended on that role that AT is expected to fulfill
Which I think freeform in that category have a one up on having only set ATs. The roles are filled by individual ability instead of automatically assigned due to set AT that the person is playing. Even when there is no other tanks." Who can tank? No one? well we better go grab someone that can." Instead of with ATs "You're a tank. You're suppsoed to tank. You're suppsoed to grab aggro. Stop playing like a scrapper or go play a scrapper. No taunt? *kicked*."
You're right...however it's not the ONLY way to get the job done. I ran with the Public Offenders for a while. The only stipulation to being on most teams was 'no Empathy'. Any other kind of Defender was allowed.
While on an all-Defender group the organizer said any Secondary but he wanted 4 Force Field and 4 Sonic to protect the team. Yeah, you COULD do that...but it's BORING. I convinced him to try all TA and here's how it worked out:
Level 2 we all have Flash Arrow. Slow to recharge so we fired 2 per spawn. They now couldn't see us and couldn't hit us very well.
Level 4 we took Glue Arrow. Same as Flash but now the enemy can't move. Remember that we had all kinds of Secondaries from Fire to Ice to whatever to do actual damage.
Level 12 we all took Acid Arrow (we took movement powers and Secondaries until then). AoE Dot plus -Defense for the enemy.
Level 18 we all took Disruption Arrow (another 'fire 2 per spawn' power) to strip the enemy's Resistance.
The point is, you CAN have a nice, slow, safe boring Tank to help out but it's not required. There's more than one way to skin a cat...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
You will not be able to choose damage type. What is described in that update is a very basic concept of the power building system we, as devs, will be using to create power sets.
The end result for you, the player will be that you pick a power set which has these options already set. You then get to customize the animations of the powers, and the visual effects of the powers, it won't be complete freedom of customization mind you. We shouldn't have say cold based powers that freeze a target in place look like fire based powers. But there may be several visual options for cold based powers that freeze a target in place.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Understood. And I suspect that telepathy is often drawn FX wise as "radio waves" so I'm looking forward to seeing animations and FX.
In Marvel Heroes for instance.. Jean Grey's telepathy can be represented by flames (Phoenix) while Emma's is mostly light blue/white whisps of energy. The mechanics of the powers are often the same, but the two character models use distinctly different FX tables.
I think the biggest question on everyone's mind is: What choices will players be afforded by devs? If the damage type, cast mechanics, FX type (All Ice or All fire or All Psychic), and progression tree for any particular tree is defined by the devs, what choices do we get to differentiate ourselves or will all Fire Rangers be the same with differences in cast animation and color? Is your entire build's powers going to be pre-determined as soon as you pick a class?
While damage type has not been discussed at length, do you see a danger presented by "power replacers" that only change the damage type and not the animation? I for one don't mind ice burning or fire freezing or even knives made of electricity or guns that shoot psychic bullets or even Crowbars made of magic energy. The balance is there in the type of casts we are afforded.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Hmm, this seems like an interesting debate. I am thinking now about how, by comparison, things work in PnP games like Dungeons and Dragons, and Anima.
Since the goal is to surpass the original COX, I think I have an idea. Why not use a template system to start with? That is, the base system is free-form but things like blasters, tanks, scrappers, controllers, etc. are templates that you choose on top of that system. The main goal being to not confuse new players who don't know the system, to keep people out of trouble.
Then, the free-form system could be something to unlock, kind of like the epic ATs in COX where you had to have a 50th level character first to be able to play them.
So, you reach a point where, after reaching whatever it is, you unlock an "expert mode" for those who understand the system enough to be comfortable that they could create a free-form character, but they could still use the templates if they like.
Take a step back, this could have more benefits as well. If the game itself was "balanced" at a free-form level, it would actually make it easier to make the AT "templates" more balanced as a result, or perhaps better distinguished. For example, COX already had the problem that there was a short list of ATs that were amazing in PVP, and all the others were basically useless except for the rare cases that you actually had a good team PvP going (yes, BOTH times that actually happened). Basically, COX was not balanced for 1v1 play because they wanted you to team, but it rarely happened in PvP, which is why I think it was an afterthought.
Thinking about this now, if the devs at COX had actually balanced all the powers together free-form and then made the ATs, perhaps it would have been more globally balanced and they could have avoided things like ED in the first place.
You are always going to have min/maxers no matter what, why not embrace them rather than nerf the game to try to suppress them?
-Bodai
There are reasons for not allowing ad-hoc power building, selected damage types, and even being aware of a superflous amount of customization for visual effects on powers. Adhoc power building may represent a danger to the framework we've been creating from which every power which is actively used in the game works from.
Adhoc power creation, from a gameplay stand point, can really, really break game balance. We'd have very little in the way of making sure players weren't building things to do which weren't planned for, designed for at given levels of play, and much, much more. In a single player, or even small-team co-op type game this is much more managable (and those tend to have less limits than what we plan for in versatility of builds). Also without any consistancy for the framework to operate with, each variable power attribute for the same "power" being used server wide could crush the frame.
Regarding choice (again subject to change) the plan put forth is to you pick your class, specification, primary and secondary; the themes and types of these sets are set by us. A Burning Melee set for instance could have any number of visual effects which are approrpiately associated with that which burns, melts, etc...So Fire? Check? Burning winds of sand? and so on.
A Cold Melee set for instance could have any number of visual effects which are appropriately associated with that which can make things cold, like really cold to the point of freezing. So Ice? Check. Water? Check and so on.
This isn't to say that a Mind Control set couldn't have various forms of auras for the visual effects, but they would need to be done in a way which makes them distinct from say a fiery telepathic aura from true burning type effects. There are reasons for this which I can't get into right now.
You will also be able to swap out animations for these powers. Melee attacks may use a number of animations which vary by style, with or without weapons (within context and reason). Ranged attacks may offer a number of points of entry, various styles of animations, and with / without weapons.
You will (hopefully at some point) be able to choose your mastery, a (most likely) inherent ability which affects the playstyle of your specification.
With these options alone, even if you are teamed with someone of the same specification, primary, and secondary power set, and even the same mastery, the two of you would look nothing alike, the way you move when activating powers could be drastically different and the visual effects of those powers could be different.
Beyond this there are tertiary power sets which can also be customized and further make your build distinctly different from another person's. We haven't even touched on our Boost system yet.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Good stuff here.
I appreciate your response and do understand this is all likely to change but I do desire an understanding of your design objectives that define these choices. I've created a flow chart to follow the character creation process and am truly asking for understanding and not out of criticism.
Just so I am getting clear understanding, any two builds with the same specification, primary, secondary and mastery will have the exact same powers in their build - not a pool just to choose from, but the entire progression predetermined. There are not branches or unlocking trees or either or A vs B choices to make in the progression but rather a linear unlocking. The player will not be selecting any powers as they are predetermined, is this correct? Each build works the same but moves differently and has a choice of cast animations to choose from within the chosen inside the power progression.
We are all anxiously waiting to hear more about the Boost system when you're ready.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Each primary and secondary are being designed with a fixed number of powers (subject to change). This does not mean that every player will choose every power from their primary and every power from their secondary. I was only over-simplifying to get a point across, even if two players happened to have the exact same class / spec and the exact same powers, they may look very different from one another in both character and power appearance.
How and when those powers are chosen hasn't been decided. There are a couple of issues creating a brancing power system creates. Namely each branch is in effect a new power we have to create from scratch, so even if you had the same number of power slots, but had those slots limited by the number of branches you chose, the workload to create 1 power set grows exponentially.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
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