Update: City of Titans to use Unreal Engine 4!

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VDG
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Update: City of Titans to use Unreal Engine 4!

http://cityoftitans.com/content/city-titans-use-unreal-engine-4

Feel free to discuss today's big news that City of Titans will be using Epic's Unreal Engine 4! I will be on hand to try to answer as many questions as possible while my body allows.

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Strangely enough, this also

Strangely enough, this also coincides with the news today about UE4's licensing terms... which I believe are far better (overall) compared to UE3's.

Sounds good overall though (although I hope that I wont have to upgrade my machine to play it at max settings)

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We've actually been working

We've actually been working with UE4 since late November/early December but have been under NDA (which finally got lifted). We've been super excited to be working with it and we think you're going to love what it's going to let City of Titans become!

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One of the great things about

One of the great things about UE4 is that it works on older machines very well. Possibly better than 3 did, relatively speaking.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

One of the great things about UE4 is that it works on older machines very well. Possibly better than 3 did, relatively speaking.

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I remember how old and dated

I remember how old and dated the CoH Engine got to look after a while. Starting CoT with something this fresh is going to be great. Now I await Pics and Videos :)

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Can't wait till we see photos

Can't wait till we see photos in game :P

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Mind...is... BLOWN! I'm

Mind...is... BLOWN! I'm really am hyped over this.

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Outstanding! If the game is

Outstanding! If the game is still a year or 2 away, I'll need a new pc by then anyway.

For those of you interested in a wee demo of UE4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acR4n6lJEdQ

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I like this demo better.

I like this demo better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLHxiztpBs
People were asking about clipping, I believe?
Heh. Heh. Heh.

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Blowing up buildings and your

Blowing up buildings and your minds is what we're all about at Missing Worlds Media.

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Blu Skye wrote:
Blu Skye wrote:

I remember how old and dated the CoH Engine got to look after a while. Starting CoT with something this fresh is going to be great. Now I await Pics and Videos :)

Good point! Really excited for this, best update from MWM yet in my opinion!

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And QH is finally joining you

And QH is finally joining you as well :)

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So... the Nightmare will be

So... the Nightmare will be able to dominate and destroy you pathetic heroes in GLORIOUS UNREAL 4!

Excellent... all the more reason to get that new laptop..

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Thanks for the link, Cinnder.

Thanks for the link, Cinnder. It looks great, and looks like it's very developer friendly, too.

I presume we'll be seeing some of what our devs have been doing with it in future updates. ^_^

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Very good news - can't wait

Very good news - can't wait to see what you guys can do with it!

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And thanks for that link,

And thanks for that link, also, Warcabbit!

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

I like this demo better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLHxiztpBs
People were asking about clipping, I believe?
Heh. Heh. Heh.

Nice! I can imagine how this will work for hair also.

I think we've just seen the newest enemy group from CoT: the Tablecloth Ninjas.

"We shall defeat you using the power of....DANCE!"

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I would also like to state

I would also like to state that I *like* how fire looks and acts in unreal 4 ;)

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Love the look of the engine.

Love the look of the engine. Should be a sweet looking game when done.

But...........

In some ways I hope the creators do not go for a super gorgeous looking game which has little in the way of playability. I would rather settle for a less graphically good looking game which keeps me coming back for more rather than one which looks great but I get bored with real quick.

warcabbit wrote:

I like this demo better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLHxiztpBs
People were asking about clipping, I believe?
Heh. Heh. Heh.

I love the look of these characters, and I think they would make great enemies in CoT as well. :D

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Right now, looks like we can

Right now, looks like we can have both.

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Good to hear

Good to hear

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There is one thing I like to

There is one thing I like to ask. In the post it says this "Well, that’s because shortly after our Kickstarter closed, we were granted a license to move from Unreal 3 to the brand-spanking new Unreal Engine 4 in December 2013." Did you all asked to use Unreal 4 or did they choose to Grant you the license for it? Because face it if they boosted the license not only to they think the project is good.. it makes them one of the coolest companies ever!

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There was a dialogue, as we

There was a dialogue, as we prepped for the license for 3 and... well, at the end of it, we all agreed on 4. I really can't say enough about how awesome they are. Why, you might call them truly... Epic.

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Okay folks prepare the cape

Okay folks prepare the cape and masks! Epic just leveled up to superhero status!

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Also helps that Black Pebble

Also helps that Black Pebble is with Epic as well if i remember correctly.....

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Now just have to hope CoT has

Now just have to hope CoT has a nice artstyle to go along with the UE4!

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Yeah we already have

Yeah we already have Champions Online for poor artstyle choices.

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Also helps that Black Pebble is with Epic as well if i remember correctly.....

I can neither confirm or deny that statement nor how awesome Black Pebble is.
No, wait, I can confirm he is totally awesome.
It's good to have friends.

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I was really hoping this

I was really hoping this would happen! Great job team this is a great time-saving, forward-thinking decision.

This game is guaranteed to be beautiful!

- -

One of the gripes I've had about CoX and Champions was that the textures didn't look very authentic because of the overly cartoony nature of their game. This is better in DC Universe Online but they don't really devote themselves to customization as I would have hoped. This tells me that my nylons can look like nylons, my rubber fabric can look like rubber and my metal can pick up light particles from the environment.. so much yes.

Oh and don't even get me started on the glowing effects and particle lighting.. having lit particles that actually appear as light in the environment and on other characters etc is SO good for combat immersion. I can't wait for the "dark lairs" that are lit by my electric teammates crackling glow!

Seriously you knocked this one out of the park

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

Yeah we already have Champions Online for poor artstyle choices.

CoT looking like TSW, ESO or some other idea of OMG TOTALLY REALISTIC looking artstyle worries me to no end. I'd rather CO's style than TSW.

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It's a thin line. I don't

It's a thin line. I don't want it ultra realistic, at the same time I don't want to cartoonish (WOW, Everquest Next, Wildstar.)

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

It's a thin line. I don't want it ultra realistic, at the same time I don't want to cartoonish (WOW, Everquest Next, Wildstar.)

Why is cartoonish always seen as "bad"? Some amazing games have been made with more vibrant colors in its design and environments, if only to contrast the player. Overlord, for instance, as well as Freedom Force (...pinnacle of AWESOME in Superhero Games), EvilGenius, Dungeon Keeper, TF2, Kingdoms of Amalur, Fable... the list goes on.

That being said, I do agree that it should stray away from EVERYONE having exaggerated features and be less rounded/simplistic in character models, ala TF2 and WoW (Save for Arthas).

THIS is how I would actually prefer to look in terms of lighting and design.

(Love how I found one of the inspirations for Nightmare's last few designs. HELMET CROWN!)

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Cartoonish isn't bad. I did

Cartoonish isn't bad. I did say to cartoonish. I want my giant Gummy Bear! Or a more anime flair to my insane Pixie Jem! That was one thing CoH got very right the more realistic players can play those types but you still have a more silly look selection for those who wanted the more Playful flair.

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Really we should set up a

Really we should set up a thread just for the Art direction.

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Ah! Sorry about that then.

Ah! Sorry about that then. Thought there was malice to the cartoon design.

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It should be mentioned that

It should be mentioned that less hyper-realistic games "age" better. This is a well-known fact and likely was one of the things that helped CoH. As I would like us to have the kind of longevity this incredible community deserves, while I don't want a game that looks like it is made only for kids, and I definately do not want cell-shaded. I also do not want to loose all whimsey and brightness in an over-abundance of realism

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Ok FX team.. I'm begging you

Ok FX team.. I'm begging you to give me a FX option of distortion (no color and very few/no light particles) .. like what happens when you look into a heat-wave.

So many games give you light particles and action lines but I've yet to have the ability to shoot electromagnetic waves from my head (or hands)

Sincerely,

Kontrol

(I've seen this effect in Unreal4 and LOVE it. While I'm at it.. a liquid based FX set using clear water?! What!!! YES PLEASE Said my SG Mate Crescentwave)

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Unreal Engine 4 sure sounds

Unreal Engine 4 sure sounds impressive. Now I'm looking forward what you guys will be able to get out of it.
Also I'm more of a fan of comic book style over hyper-realism. Not that I don't like shiny stuff ;)

Very good news though. Now I'm hoping for a few screenshots of early version ingame graphics to keep me going. Still a loooong time to go ;)

Keep up the good work!

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I'll jump on the awesome news

I'll jump on the awesome news bandwagon*. Woohoo!

And that demo that Warcabbit linked... I think once we get to start playing with the Avatar Builder a lot of people will be asking, "CoH who?"

* Also the delicious irony of a developer being under a NDA.

- - - - -
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Yeah, there's a middle ground

Yeah, there's a middle ground when it comes to cartoon vs realism that I hope is the sweet spot CoT hits. I agree with the folks above who said CO is too far to the cartoony side. CoX never seemed to me to be cartoony as a style decision the way CO is; I always thought it was only limitations of the engine that prevented it from looking more realistic.

I also agree with the folks who find TSW to be too far in the other direction. My problem with TSW's style is that, while it's more realistic, for me that realism puts it smack in the deepest part of the Uncanny Valley. (http://3d.about.com/od/3d-101-The-Basics/ss/What-Is-The-Uncanny-Valley.htm) The atrocious voice acting in TSW doesn't help, but CoT won't have to deal with that.

At least we know that MWM has the tools now to cook up some awesome. I have faith they can hit the middle target.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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We absolutely do want to show

We absolutely do want to show you guys a ton of screenshots of Titan CIty inside the Unreal Engine 4 but there's on caveat: We have to clear them with Unreal first. So, keep your fingers and we'll try to get some shinies out to you Soon™!

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VDG wrote:
VDG wrote:

We absolutely do want to show you guys a ton of screenshots of Titan CIty inside the Unreal Engine 4 but there's on caveat: We have to clear them with Unreal first. So, keep your fingers and we'll try to get some shinies out to you Soon™!

Like Darth Fez said earlier it is kind of ironic for a Dev team to be under a NDA in regards to what it can share with its future customers but I guess stranger things have happened. If the Unreal people want to work that way then that's their deal but it does leave me curious if you can tell us how long you'll have to keep "clearing" things with them first before you'll be free from that particular limitation.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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We'll be patient... Can't

We'll be patient... Can't wait to see... But patiently....

Just out of curiosity, if it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask... I notice on the UE4 web site it says "We’re working to build a company that succeeds when UE4 developers succeed. Anyone can ship a commercial product with UE4 by paying 5% of gross revenue resulting from sales to users." Is that the purchase model MWM is working with, meaning -- in a way -- that UE4 is kind of a backer of the project also?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Just out of curiosity, if it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask... I notice on the UE4 web site it says "We’re working to build a company that succeeds when UE4 developers succeed. Anyone can ship a commercial product with UE4 by paying 5% of gross revenue resulting from sales to users." Is that the purchase model MWM is working with, meaning -- in a way -- that UE4 is kind of a backer of the project also?

Yeah I'll bet they've made some kind of deal along those lines. That way startups like MWM can develop their products using UE4 with relatively little (if any) up-front money for the promises of a percentage after sales begin to flow.

So while Unreal might not be a "backer" in the traditional sense it'll obviously be in their best interest to help MWM succeed. In a way you could look at it that Unreal has enough confidence in this venture to be willing to wait to get paid on a deferred long term basis. If they think it's a good bet then that can only bode well for our chances to get a good game.

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It all does rather sound like

It all does rather sound like the UE4 is still being put through its paces, so Epic may be doing nothing more than assuring themselves that any UE4 assets that are made available for general consumption are up to standard. In essence, one could say MWM is beta testing UE4. In other words, 90% of Epic's current paranoia with regards to UE4 is probably coming from their marketing department.

- - - - -
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

It all does rather sound like the UE4 is still being put through its paces, so Epic may be doing nothing more than assuring themselves that any UE4 assets that are made available for general consumption are up to standard. In essence, one could say MWM is beta testing UE4. In other words, 90% of Epic's current paranoia with regards to UE4 is probably coming from their marketing department.

Based on recent articles like this it does appear as though Epic is basically going to get companies like MWM to beta test UE4 for them in exchange for the "developer-friendly" pricing model. Really seems like a win-win for us.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Sweet baby jeebus. I cant

Sweet baby jeebus. I cant even imagine my people with costumes of this detail and movement. the only thing that concerns me is that I might have to upgrade to a more powerful rig that can handle all this.... but that can definitely happen.

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... Question: having seen the

... Question: having seen the Youtube demo, is it going to be possible for our people to have moving hair AND stuff like capes? I seem to be seeing multiple costume parts moving at the same time, it seems to me like this will be possible...?

Can you guys even imagine how beautiful we are all going to be? Just download my brain into this virtual reality, I ain't never coming back out :)

This news in general has really made me smile, after a year+ of brokenheartedness.... cant wait to see and know MORE.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

There was a dialogue, as we prepped for the license for 3 and... well, at the end of it, we all agreed on 4. I really can't say enough about how awesome they are. Why, you might call them truly... Epic.

Heh. This reminded me of Churchill's famous remark, slyly referring to the urgency which gripped Britain during the Dreadnought-building arms race with Germany just before World War I.

"The economists offered four; the Navy wanted six. We compromised on eight."

Good job "compromising up."

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To say the Unreal 4 Engine

To say the Unreal 4 Engine news makes me happy would be an understatement.

(insert giddy spongebob jpg here)

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Illusionss wrote:
Illusionss wrote:

... Question: having seen the Youtube demo, is it going to be possible for our people to have moving hair AND stuff like capes? I seem to be seeing multiple costume parts moving at the same time, it seems to me like this will be possible...?

Just as an educated guess I would assume UE4 will allow for far more "anchor points" than CoH was ever capable of. In fact the very concept of discrete "anchor points" the way CoH defined them might even be an antiquated way to describe how things will work now.

Bottomline I doubt we'll have to suffer situations in CoT where we'd have to choose between having one kind of character animation versus another like having capes OR moving hair.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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very excited!

very excited!

i can haz Linux support? :3

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QuantumHero wrote:
QuantumHero wrote:

It should be mentioned that less hyper-realistic games "age" better. This is a well-known fact and likely was one of the things that helped CoH. As I would like us to have the kind of longevity this incredible community deserves, while I don't want a game that looks like it is made only for kids, and I definately do not want cell-shaded. I also do not want to loose all whimsey and brightness in an over-abundance of realism

100% agree with this. Someone mentioned TF2 upthread, and that is a perfect example of a game that ages well because of the art style.

Now, I think CoT should look much more realistic than that, but we definitely should not be shooting for the top tier. In gaming, the top tier is constantly getting pushed higher. Assassin's Creed was top tier realism when it came out, but when you compare it to a more recent Assassin's Creed game (they all shoot for top tier realism), the difference becomes very apparent. In CoT's case, I think a little bit less will amount to a whole lot more.




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Question, although this may

Question, although this may be too specific for this thread: will the Unreal Engine 4 permit true looping flight (pitch control through 360 degrees) and banking (roll control while turning)? See this topic: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/flight-controls-i-have-always-wanted#comment-48061

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Bottomline I doubt we'll have to suffer situations in CoT where we'd have to choose between having one kind of character animation versus another like having capes OR moving hair.

That demo shows how many different materials all work together without clipping issues. Hair and capes can definitely co-exist in one character. As well as capes and tails or even capes and wings. The material/fabric moves around the structured aspects of the costume and itself simultaneously with the UE4 physics engine. Also notice how the shadow and light particles respect the true shapes.

And for those worried that UE4 wont work on lower tech computers, they have released UE4 with the promise that it is BETTER for simultaneous gaming packages that work not just for high end PCs but also mobile devices and tablets with a drop in graphics but with fewer changes to the original code. UE4 is BETTER for your lower rigs than UE3 would have ever been.

Winter wrote:

QuantumHero wrote:

- -
It should be mentioned that less hyper-realistic games "age" better. This is a well-known fact and likely was one of the things that helped CoH. As I would like us to have the kind of longevity this incredible community deserves, while I don't want a game that looks like it is made only for kids, and I definately do not want cell-shaded. I also do not want to loose all whimsey and brightness in an over-abundance of realism

100% agree with this. Someone mentioned TF2 upthread, and that is a perfect example of a game that ages well because of the art style.
Now, I think CoT should look much more realistic than that, but we definitely should not be shooting for the top tier. In gaming, the top tier is constantly getting pushed higher. Assassin's Creed was top tier realism when it came out, but when you compare it to a more recent Assassin's Creed game (they all shoot for top tier realism), the difference becomes very apparent. In CoT's case, I think a little bit less will amount to a whole lot more.

The conversation of style is not the same as the conversation of quality. TERA is Unreal 3 and has a very stylized look. When talking about MMORPGs it's important not to aim low because the competition is steep. Players here already love City of Titans and we haven't even seen anything yet, but remember there is a cruel world outside these forums full of players who expect more and better from their games.

When I hear people say "don't try to compete" it truly scares me.

- -

On the conversation of style, I hope the game for the most part is brightly colored with high contrast.. this helps avoid the "grim/dark" feeling so many people have come to expect from modern games. I love Wildstar (i know NCSoft and all) but I don't want City of Titans to be made in that type of overly animated style. The way I'm seeing City of Titans going, it has the ability to make DC Universe Online look like it was made by amateurs.

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*picks up jaw off the floor

*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*

This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!

I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*
This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!
I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

Yes. The UE4 looks like it can deliver on the pretty! The most important aspect imo! Grind? Don't care! As long as the game looks pretty!

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UE4 is capable of whatever

UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.

That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

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Some of it depends on the

Some of it depends on the style. Humberto Romas style can have distorted body proportions. DC Animated? Same!

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*
This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!
I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

I can see already I'm going to be spending a lot of money in this game. I am torn between chagrin and joy. No, joy is definitely winning out!

As far as style, I want the base models to be pretty recognizably human. CoX's were, and this worked well. I don't like super-stylized like Wildstar. I don't want even a hint of silly. Even "monstrous" forms should be aesthetically pleasing. CO has a costume pack of nothing but beast/monster heads, and every one of them more hideous than the last. I want beautifully monstrous/inhuman!!

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Looking damn good! Speed the

Looking damn good! Speed the Day!

You say nice things about me: I admire that in a person.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

The conversation of style is not the same as the conversation of quality. TERA is Unreal 3 and has a very stylized look. When talking about MMORPGs it's important not to aim low because the competition is steep. Players here already love City of Titans and we haven't even seen anything yet, but remember there is a cruel world outside these forums full of players who expect more and better from their games.
When I hear people say "don't try to compete" it truly scares me.

Quality and style are indeed different, and I am discussing style. When I said "we should not be shooting for the top tier" I meant in terms of realism in the design style. The most realistic look possible now is not going to be the most realistic look possible in 4 years (to pick an arbitrary time frame). If realism becomes a selling point for CoT, or any game for that matter, then the game has a harder time remaining relevant within a few years' time. Simply put: realism expires. By choosing a slightly less realistic design style but making sure that design is high quality, combined with the inclusion of high quality story-telling and character options, this game can ensure that its main selling points do not become outdated.




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This news is so big and so

This news is so big and so positive I registered just to say "congratulations"! Seriously, this is good stuff. I really look forward to seeing the results.

Illusionss wrote:

Radiac wrote:
*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*
This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!
I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

I can see already I'm going to be spending a lot of money in this game. I am torn between chagrin and joy. No, joy is definitely winning out!
As far as style, I want the base models to be pretty recognizably human. CoX's were, and this worked well. I don't like super-stylized like Wildstar. I don't want even a hint of silly. Even "monstrous" forms should be aesthetically pleasing. CO has a costume pack of nothing but beast/monster heads, and every one of them more hideous than the last. I want beautifully monstrous/inhuman!!

I completely agree with this. Even players who want to play monsters want to at least look aesthetically pleasing. The number of people who like playing as genuinely ugly monstrosities are a pretty small minority, all told. A strong basis in real anatomy is a big plus, as well.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

The conversation of style is not the same as the conversation of quality. TERA is Unreal 3 and has a very stylized look. When talking about MMORPGs it's important not to aim low because the competition is steep. Players here already love City of Titans and we haven't even seen anything yet, but remember there is a cruel world outside these forums full of players who expect more and better from their games.
When I hear people say "don't try to compete" it truly scares me.

I have no doubt the overall look and feel of CoT will be outstanding because they have a wonderful tool like UE4 to give us an "updated" version of CoH, a game which others have already pointed out held up graphically very well despite its relative age. With UE4 and its "Dev-friendly" pricing scheme there'll be less of a need to worry about "major corporate/financial backing" or doing things that would only serve to make people like that happy with MWM.

As far as the "cruel world outside these forums" go I think it would be a desperate mistake to overload CoT with too many "modern bells and whistles" in an attempt to make it appeal to everybody playing bleeding-edge MMOs in 2014-5. CoH needs to be a "spiritual successor" to CoH, not some kind of silver bullet that'll kill WoW, TERA, Wildstar or any other game you can mention. It needs to be successful enough to meet its goals, and no bigger.

When I hear people say "MWM needs to make profit at any cost above and beyond any other concern" it truly scares me.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Well, it kinda does Lothic.

Well, it kinda does Lothic. If it cannot make a profit, it simply will cease to exist. The game cannot exist without turning a profit. Therefore, it IS the biggest priority. There's simply no getting away from that. A business has to make money.

But, these things aren't mutually exclusive. And trying to be a WoW killer or any other game killer never works anyway. Rather than competing with these other games, say MWM and CoT is competing with itself and its legacy. How far can they exceed expectations? We're gonna find out. That's the kind of team we've got. I don't think we need to worry about the details. They'll do it right.

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Some one needs to SHUT UP AND

Some one needs to SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY ALREADY !!!!

What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose.. and show you... just how powerful I really am..

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well, it kinda does Lothic. If it cannot make a profit, it simply will cease to exist. The game cannot exist without turning a profit. Therefore, it IS the biggest priority. There's simply no getting away from that. A business has to make money.
But, these things aren't mutually exclusive. And trying to be a WoW killer or any other game killer never works anyway. Rather than competing with these other games, say MWM and CoT is competing with itself and its legacy. How far can they exceed expectations? We're gonna find out. That's the kind of team we've got. I don't think we need to worry about the details. They'll do it right.

Every time I make this point people think I'm saying "profit is not important" for MWM. Nothing could be further from the truth. Obviously MWM will have to make money to be viable in the long run.

My point always has, and will continue to be, that MWM's PRIMARY PRIORITY is to make and maintain CoT. Profit is mearly a means to that end. Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. They "got into the business" of being a company solely in order to make a spiritual successor to CoH. That was and always has been goal number one.

Now in the fullness of time if MWM manages to turn a significant profit from this endeavor then more power to them. I wouldn't "hate" them for being a runaway success. But I strongly suspect (and this is the point most people are missing here) that if MWM merely only manages to earn enough profit to "comfortably keep the lights on" then they'll probably still consider it to be a success because remember the GOAL here was to make a spiritual successor that was alive and playable, not hyper-profitable in and of itself.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. .

That would have been crazy. Starting a company from scratch with a volunteer workforce to build a successor to a shut down game is the only way to go.
Seriously though, if the game is half as good as we think it will be it will be a huge triumph. UE4 definitely is a step in the right direction. Up.
Up, up and away actually. ;)

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top line game with UE4 cant

top line game with UE4 cant wait see sceen shots

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. .

That would have been crazy. Starting a company from scratch with a volunteer workforce to build a successor to a shut down game is the only way to go.
Seriously though, if the game is half as good as we think it will be it will be a huge triumph. UE4 definitely is a step in the right direction. Up.
Up, up and away actually. ;)

How many other groups of devoted fans have gotten together to form a serious company for the sole purpose to create a spiritual successor to a dead game are you aware of? If CoH hadn't died the way it did would MWM even exist today?

The very fact that the origins of MWM isn't like "every other generic game company" out there pretty much dictates that it's going to operate in a unique way, even when it comes to profits. In the long run I wish MWM every penny of profit CoT can possibly earn. But honestly if it manages to keep CoT alive and maintained for 10+ years and only makes a total $1.47 net profit doing it I think most of us will still consider it a worth-while success.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.
That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

Rather than "brighter, I'd say more "color saturated." "Grim zones" aren't as bad as all that. A living city should have both its shining face and gritty underbelly. I love how Gotham City is different from Metropolis in DCUO. We need places in which both the Soaring Hero and the Dark Vigilante can feel at home. But I stopped playing Fallout (an awesome game in most other respects) because of its relentlessly gray and depressing style. So I'm actually in agreement, here.

I'm absolutely on board with the models being more in line with real human anatomy. I'm in favor of the "comic book hero" proportions in general, and a little exaggeration for effect is expected in the genre (especially for villains) but too much distortion pushes into the "cartoon" realm and it doesn't seem like that's the way most folks on the boards here want to go. Me included. I've always favored Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil more than Jack Kirby or Todd McFarlane. Too many anatomy classes, I guess. :p

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

As far as the "cruel world outside these forums" go I think it would be a desperate mistake to overload CoT with too many "modern bells and whistles" in an attempt to make it appeal to everybody playing bleeding-edge MMOs in 2014-5.

Agree in principle. In fact, I'd argue that the "bleeding edge" crowd will inevitably move on to newer games even if they're worse. It's a mistake to imagine we can retain the people with short attention spans and the people who only want to look at the newest stuff.

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In terms of artstyle, I think

In terms of artstyle, I think what we need is City of Heroes, undated to what UE4 can do. I always liked the look of CoX - realistic, but comic book realistic. For me, "comic book realistic" is George Perez in the post Crisis on the Infinite Earths Wonder Woman reboot and the early Teen titans, and I felt that is what CoX had (limited to the technology of it's time).

Things I would like to see:

1) My character Tempest Master with blond flowing hair (yes, PLEASE give males more than 4 long hair styles - just make all hairstyles open to anyone - You want to be Beehive Man with a hairdo to match?... I won't judge... but I digress) and cape when he flies.

2) Wind auras... no visible aura, but constantly keeps hair/capes, dresses fluttering

3) Weather

4) Seasons (would love to see TM flying down the tree lined avenues around the main square in fall and kicking up a flare of leaves behind him)

5) "Invisible waves" not only for electromagnetic effects but also mental powers

6) Water effects that leave surfaces wet

7) Living cityscapes - lights in buildings going on and off randomly as day/night falls, foot traffic on streets changing based on time of day (business rush hour in morning and evening, lunch crowds, low foot traffic at night in business areas, high in "entertainment" zones (nightclubs/restaurant areas), street traffic attire changes based on time of day

8) When they are added to the game, mastermind minions that can be skinned in multiple ways (robots of different types, dinosaurs, ninjas, mercs, female ninjas, clowns... yes, CLOWNS... not for me of course.....). Basically a scaled down character creator for minions.

9) Body art/scars other than on the face, with more than one pattern selection

10) The one thing CO got right.... non-symmetric costuming and options for thigh/leg costume parts.

The list goes on, but basically CoX had most of these things.... with UE4, we can make it better than it was before... better... stronger... faster.... *insert bionic sound here*

PS - On thing you couldn't do real well in CoX is get to far outside the "heroic norm"... I had an artist at ComiCon do a sketch for me once... it was his vision of a middle aged Superman... still heroic in his proportions, but he had a gut, and was a bit slumped. It is one of my favorite sketches ever. Allow us to have characters that are not "superheroic" in stature. And for the women out there, please allow Mr Chest Slider to go down to 0 (instead of the low end being 5 or 6) as well as going up to 11. (I am going to stop short of non symmetrical breast sizing, although we do need it if we want to make a true Amazonian Princess....)

"Yes they do Otto, they just don't understand it!"

I am Tempest; Tempest Master in my previous life, and known as Temp to almost everyone that knows me.

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Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

It's a mistake to imagine we can retain the people with short attention spans and the people who only want to look at the newest stuff.

At a risk of thread-jacking, I nevertheless feel I have to point out this parallel... Not only do I agree wholeheartedly, but I think your comment has a huge relevance to the sub vs f2p discussion going on in another topic.

I can't guarantee that Lothic is right about MWM's motivations overall, but I hope he is. Profit is at best a short-term measure of success. It contributes to -- but is not the same thing as -- longevity. I'm with the others who want more than anything for CoT to last a long, long time.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

summer-heat wrote:
UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.
That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

Rather than "brighter, I'd say more "color saturated." "Grim zones" aren't as bad as all that. A living city should have both its shining face and gritty underbelly. I love how Gotham City is different from Metropolis in DCUO. We need places in which both the Soaring Hero and the Dark Vigilante can feel at home. But I stopped playing Fallout (an awesome game in most other respects) because of its relentlessly gray and depressing style. So I'm actually in agreement, here.
I'm absolutely on board with the models being more in line with real human anatomy. I'm in favor of the "comic book hero" proportions in general, and a little exaggeration for effect is expected in the genre (especially for villains) but too much distortion pushes into the "cartoon" realm and it doesn't seem like that's the way most folks on the boards here want to go. Me included. I've always favored Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil more than Jack Kirby or Todd McFarlane. Too many anatomy classes, I guess. :p

I'll keep hoping for Tony Daniel, Michael Turner, J Scott Campbell or Marc Silvestry style myself. *crosses fingers*

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

WarBird wrote:
summer-heat wrote:
UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.
That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

Rather than "brighter, I'd say more "color saturated." "Grim zones" aren't as bad as all that. A living city should have both its shining face and gritty underbelly. I love how Gotham City is different from Metropolis in DCUO. We need places in which both the Soaring Hero and the Dark Vigilante can feel at home. But I stopped playing Fallout (an awesome game in most other respects) because of its relentlessly gray and depressing style. So I'm actually in agreement, here.
I'm absolutely on board with the models being more in line with real human anatomy. I'm in favor of the "comic book hero" proportions in general, and a little exaggeration for effect is expected in the genre (especially for villains) but too much distortion pushes into the "cartoon" realm and it doesn't seem like that's the way most folks on the boards here want to go. Me included. I've always favored Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil more than Jack Kirby or Todd McFarlane. Too many anatomy classes, I guess. :p

I'll keep hoping for Tony Daniel, Michael Turner, J Scott Campbell or Marc Silvestry style myself. *crosses fingers*

All three outstanding artists, no doubt. Definitely post-Image in look (which is to say digitally colored) and very silmilar in their fusion-esque anatomy styles. I'd predict that UE4 will give us deeper coloring like that, and I'm all for it. I was mainly trying to delineate differences and extremes from more classic artists as far as their physique depictions. Otherwise, thumbs-up on your examples, too

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

All three outstanding artists, no doubt. Definitely post-Image in look (which is to say digitally colored) and very silmilar in their fusion-esque anatomy styles. I'd predict that UE4 will give us deeper coloring like that, and I'm all for it. I was mainly trying to delineate differences and extremes from more classic artists as far as their physique depictions. Otherwise, thumbs-up on your examples, too

I'm just worried I'll hate the look. :p

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http://www.youtube.com/watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FcxA_xYnHZ8

Unreal Engine 4 Tools Demonstration -- GDC 2014

day one vet

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Wow, did that perturb my

Wow, did that perturb my vertices!

Thanks, that expands on the glimpse of the tools demo in the link I posted earlier. I find this stuff completely fascinating. My programming days started with punch cards and ended when C++ was just coming into fashion, so this kind of stuff just blows my mind.

Does anyone know whether CoX was built with tools that were anything similar to this? Obviously not the same level of graphics, but were the UI and tool control system similar?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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TDP wrote:
TDP wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FcxA_xYnHZ8
Unreal Engine 4 Tools Demonstration -- GDC 2014

Wow - that is really nice.

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Tempest wrote:
Tempest wrote:

In terms of artstyle, I think what we need is City of Heroes, undated to what UE4 can do. I always liked the look of CoX - realistic, but comic book realistic.

Same here. CoH - for the time - had that great mix of the real/plausible and the fantastic. CO is definitely too cartoony. DC Universe is better - but the CoT crew is probably working with better tech.

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Thank you for sharing that

Thank you for sharing that link, TDP! We'll never get bored of watching these UE4 videos, will we?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Revolution wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. .

That would have been crazy. Starting a company from scratch with a volunteer workforce to build a successor to a shut down game is the only way to go.
Seriously though, if the game is half as good as we think it will be it will be a huge triumph. UE4 definitely is a step in the right direction. Up.
Up, up and away actually. ;)

How many other groups of devoted fans have gotten together to form a serious company for the sole purpose to create a spiritual successor to a dead game are you aware of? If CoH hadn't died the way it did would MWM even exist today?
The very fact that the origins of MWM isn't like "every other generic game company" out there pretty much dictates that it's going to operate in a unique way, even when it comes to profits. In the long run I wish MWM every penny of profit CoT can possibly earn. But honestly if it manages to keep CoT alive and maintained for 10+ years and only makes a total $1.47 net profit doing it I think most of us will still consider it a worth-while success.

I wouldn't call every other company "generic", but we are definitely something new and unique. It's our mandate to stay that way, too. MWM was born out of love and loss. I think we have seen a lot of changes since our little community's uproar and it won't stop there. Epic's new dev deals show it in a way. Just look at what Turbine has done with Asheron's Call! That is what listening to a community is like! I would like to think we may have helped that community with our own call to the industry.

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[quote=Lothic
Lothic wrote:

As far as the "cruel world outside these forums" go I think it would be a desperate mistake to overload CoT with too many "modern bells and whistles" in an attempt to make it appeal to everybody playing bleeding-edge MMOs in 2014-5. CoH needs to be a "spiritual successor" to CoH, not some kind of silver bullet that'll kill WoW, TERA, Wildstar or any other game you can mention. It needs to be successful enough to meet its goals, and no bigger.
When I hear people say "MWM needs to make profit at any cost above and beyond any other concern" it truly scares me.

I don't think anyone has said that this game needs to be "some kind of silver bullet that kills WoW, TERA, Wildstar or any other game." this is not a realistic goal. I frankly do not give a damn about those games. I want a game that we will like and if other people like it - well that's great.

But to say "it needs to be successful enough to meet its goals, but no bigger" seems to me to deny the developers the fruits of success. These people went out of their way, they took time out of their busy lives to make us a game to take the place of what we lost. It seems churlish to say, "I don't want them to be too successful." No. I want this endeavor to be worth their while. They deserve the rewards of success.

I have not seen anyone say "profit at any cost." We are their most important consumers, but they deserve to be rewarded for their hard work. The developers for CoX certainly got paid for THIER work, and no one was horrified by that.

If this game makes it to launch, this will be an industry first - correct me if I am wrong. This endeavor is important stuff. This could change the industry. And I say, SPEED THE PLOW. It needs changing.

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summer-heat wrote:
summer-heat wrote:

UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!"

I want a mix of zones, as we had in CoX. We had bright and sunny. We had eternally overcast. We had eternal night - complete with ghosts. We had post-apocalyptic, we had sparkling urbanity. We had inside the Alien Spaceship. I am greedy, and I want it all.

Remember how beautiful twilight was in CoX? Can you imagine how beautiful it will be, with this engine? the mind boggles. I don't want it all happy/shiny. Big cities have downtown.... and they have Skid Row. So should CoT.

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Illusionss wrote:
Illusionss wrote:

I have not seen anyone say "profit at any cost."

Maybe not those exact words, but I have seen suggestions to maximise profit without due regard to the cost in non-monetary terms, e.g. the effect on the nature of the game or the community.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Illusionss wrote:
Illusionss wrote:

summer-heat wrote:
UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!"
I want a mix of zones, as we had in CoX. We had bright and sunny. We had eternally overcast. We had eternal night - complete with ghosts. We had post-apocalyptic, we had sparkling urbanity. We had inside the Alien Spaceship. I am greedy, and I want it all.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The concern summer-heat is voicing is one I share: the Rogue Isles didn't have a proper mix of zones. It really was more akin to the relentless drabness of Fallout*. As I'd pointed out in another thread, just because something has the 'evil' label does not mean everything has to be grimdark all the time. It's difficult to feel as though I'm playing a villain when the setting is so oppressive and dehumanizing that my character feels like he's just another cog in the machine. To mention Fallout again, I found that they hit a good tone between the post-apocalyptic setting and that things aren't so bad that your character couldn't make them (a lot) worse.

* I did not have a problem with this since it made sense for the post-apocalyptic setting, although even where color was available and appropriate it was kept subdued. Presumably to avoid jarring with the overall aesthetic.

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True just because something

True just because something has the evil label doesn't mean it has to be grimdark all the time, however, that doesn't mean having a bright colorful place fit in with the Rogue Island's lore.

However, I also don't think this will be a problem with CoT. CoT the heroes and villains should all be sharing the same city. Titan City also sounds like it's going to be a big enough city to be split into having sections of it looking like Metropolis and sections looking like Gotham.

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...See, this is just me. I

...See, this is just me. I look at pix like this [this one is from one of the Arkham City games] and I imagine a zone like this in CoT and I'm all like "BRIIIIINGGGG IIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!" but I guess others don't feel the same? Honestly don't understand whats not to like about this. I think this sort of cityscape is simply gorgeous, and so full of atmosphere. Not saying an entire game should be like this, but why not a zone or two?

....but then I'm one of those lunatics who thought Spider City in Grandville was gorgeous, once I got used to making sure no cloaked Bane Spiders were around.

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Oh yeah - the Arkham games

Oh yeah - the Arkham games were Unreal Tech as well weren't they? Yup - Gotham looked good - but I wouldn't want ALL of Titan City to look like Gotham - just the older/run-down parts of town.

The main challenge, I think, will not be in putting everything together (Unreal4 seems to be VERY dev-friendly in that regard), but in having the art guys build enough assets to use; everything from chairs and tables, to pictures hung from walls, to wall and floor textures, potted plants, building exteriors, trash cans in the street and, of course, costume parts and power animations. They need to have an impressive variety of "props" - from the shiny-new to the dirty and dingy to the alien and extreme - to keep the maps fresh and different - to give them character.

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