One of the great things about UE4 is that it works on older machines very well. Possibly better than 3 did, relatively speaking.

I remember how old and dated the CoH Engine got to look after a while. Starting CoT with something this fresh is going to be great. Now I await Pics and Videos :)

Mind...is... BLOWN! I'm really am hyped over this.

I like this demo better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLHxiztpBs
People were asking about clipping, I believe?
Heh. Heh. Heh.

Blu Skye wrote:

I remember how old and dated the CoH Engine got to look after a while. Starting CoT with something this fresh is going to be great. Now I await Pics and Videos :)

Good point! Really excited for this, best update from MWM yet in my opinion!

So... the Nightmare will be able to dominate and destroy you pathetic heroes in GLORIOUS UNREAL 4!

Excellent... all the more reason to get that new laptop..

Very good news - can't wait to see what you guys can do with it!

warcabbit wrote:

I like this demo better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLHxiztpBs
People were asking about clipping, I believe?
Heh. Heh. Heh.

Nice! I can imagine how this will work for hair also.

I think we've just seen the newest enemy group from CoT: the Tablecloth Ninjas.

"We shall defeat you using the power of....DANCE!"

Good to hear

There was a dialogue, as we prepped for the license for 3 and... well, at the end of it, we all agreed on 4. I really can't say enough about how awesome they are. Why, you might call them truly... Epic.

Yeah we already have Champions Online for poor artstyle choices.

I was really hoping this would happen! Great job team this is a great time-saving, forward-thinking decision.

This game is guaranteed to be beautiful!

- -

One of the gripes I've had about CoX and Champions was that the textures didn't look very authentic because of the overly cartoony nature of their game. This is better in DC Universe Online but they don't really devote themselves to customization as I would have hoped. This tells me that my nylons can look like nylons, my rubber fabric can look like rubber and my metal can pick up light particles from the environment.. so much yes.

Oh and don't even get me started on the glowing effects and particle lighting.. having lit particles that actually appear as light in the environment and on other characters etc is SO good for combat immersion. I can't wait for the "dark lairs" that are lit by my electric teammates crackling glow!

Seriously you knocked this one out of the park

It's a thin line. I don't want it ultra realistic, at the same time I don't want to cartoonish (WOW, Everquest Next, Wildstar.)

Cartoonish isn't bad. I did say to cartoonish. I want my giant Gummy Bear! Or a more anime flair to my insane Pixie Jem! That was one thing CoH got very right the more realistic players can play those types but you still have a more silly look selection for those who wanted the more Playful flair.

Ah! Sorry about that then. Thought there was malice to the cartoon design.

Ok FX team.. I'm begging you to give me a FX option of distortion (no color and very few/no light particles) .. like what happens when you look into a heat-wave.

So many games give you light particles and action lines but I've yet to have the ability to shoot electromagnetic waves from my head (or hands)

Sincerely,

Kontrol

(I've seen this effect in Unreal4 and LOVE it. While I'm at it.. a liquid based FX set using clear water?! What!!! YES PLEASE Said my SG Mate Crescentwave)

I'll jump on the awesome news bandwagon[color=red]*[/color]. Woohoo!

And that demo that Warcabbit linked... I think once we get to start playing with the Avatar Builder a lot of people will be asking, "CoH who?"

[color=red]*[/color] Also the delicious irony of a developer being under a NDA.

We'll be patient... Can't wait to see... But patiently....

Just out of curiosity, if it wouldn't be inappropriate to ask... I notice on the UE4 web site it says "We’re working to build a company that succeeds when UE4 developers succeed. Anyone can ship a commercial product with UE4 by paying 5% of gross revenue resulting from sales to users." Is that the purchase model MWM is working with, meaning -- in a way -- that UE4 is kind of a backer of the project also?

It all does rather sound like the UE4 is still being put through its paces, so Epic may be doing nothing more than assuring themselves that any UE4 assets that are made available for general consumption are up to standard. In essence, one could say MWM is beta testing UE4. In other words, 90% of Epic's current paranoia with regards to UE4 is probably coming from their marketing department.

Sweet baby jeebus. I cant even imagine my people with costumes of this detail and movement. the only thing that concerns me is that I might have to upgrade to a more powerful rig that can handle all this.... but that can definitely happen.

warcabbit wrote:

There was a dialogue, as we prepped for the license for 3 and... well, at the end of it, we all agreed on 4. I really can't say enough about how awesome they are. Why, you might call them truly... Epic.

Heh. This reminded me of Churchill's famous remark, slyly referring to the urgency which gripped Britain during the Dreadnought-building arms race with Germany just before World War I.

"The economists offered four; the Navy wanted six. We compromised on eight."

Good job "compromising up."

Illusionss wrote:

... Question: having seen the Youtube demo, is it going to be possible for our people to have moving hair AND stuff like capes? I seem to be seeing multiple costume parts moving at the same time, it seems to me like this will be possible...?

Just as an educated guess I would assume UE4 will allow for far more "anchor points" than CoH was ever capable of. In fact the very concept of discrete "anchor points" the way CoH defined them might even be an antiquated way to describe how things will work now.

Bottomline I doubt we'll have to suffer situations in CoT where we'd have to choose between having one kind of character animation versus another like having capes OR moving hair.

QuantumHero wrote:

It should be mentioned that less hyper-realistic games "age" better. This is a well-known fact and likely was one of the things that helped CoH. As I would like us to have the kind of longevity this incredible community deserves, while I don't want a game that looks like it is made only for kids, and I definately do not want cell-shaded. I also do not want to loose all whimsey and brightness in an over-abundance of realism

100% agree with this. Someone mentioned TF2 upthread, and that is a perfect example of a game that ages well because of the art style.

Now, I think CoT should look much more realistic than that, but we definitely should not be shooting for the top tier. In gaming, the top tier is constantly getting pushed higher. Assassin's Creed was top tier realism when it came out, but when you compare it to a more recent Assassin's Creed game (they all shoot for top tier realism), the difference becomes very apparent. In CoT's case, I think a little bit less will amount to a whole lot more.

Lothic wrote:

Bottomline I doubt we'll have to suffer situations in CoT where we'd have to choose between having one kind of character animation versus another like having capes OR moving hair.

That demo shows how many different materials all work together without clipping issues. Hair and capes can definitely co-exist in one character. As well as capes and tails or even capes and wings. The material/fabric moves around the structured aspects of the costume and itself simultaneously with the UE4 physics engine. Also notice how the shadow and light particles respect the true shapes.

And for those worried that UE4 wont work on lower tech computers, they have released UE4 with the promise that it is BETTER for simultaneous gaming packages that work not just for high end PCs but also mobile devices and tablets with a drop in graphics but with fewer changes to the original code. UE4 is BETTER for your lower rigs than UE3 would have ever been.

Winter wrote:

QuantumHero wrote:

- -
It should be mentioned that less hyper-realistic games "age" better. This is a well-known fact and likely was one of the things that helped CoH. As I would like us to have the kind of longevity this incredible community deserves, while I don't want a game that looks like it is made only for kids, and I definately do not want cell-shaded. I also do not want to loose all whimsey and brightness in an over-abundance of realism

100% agree with this. Someone mentioned TF2 upthread, and that is a perfect example of a game that ages well because of the art style.
Now, I think CoT should look much more realistic than that, but we definitely should not be shooting for the top tier. In gaming, the top tier is constantly getting pushed higher. Assassin's Creed was top tier realism when it came out, but when you compare it to a more recent Assassin's Creed game (they all shoot for top tier realism), the difference becomes very apparent. In CoT's case, I think a little bit less will amount to a whole lot more.

The conversation of style is not the same as the conversation of quality. TERA is Unreal 3 and has a very stylized look. When talking about MMORPGs it's important not to aim low because the competition is steep. Players here already love City of Titans and we haven't even seen anything yet, but remember there is a cruel world outside these forums full of players who expect more and better from their games.

When I hear people say "don't try to compete" it truly scares me.

- -

On the conversation of style, I hope the game for the most part is brightly colored with high contrast.. this helps avoid the "grim/dark" feeling so many people have come to expect from modern games. I love Wildstar (i know NCSoft and all) but I don't want City of Titans to be made in that type of overly animated style. The way I'm seeing City of Titans going, it has the ability to make DC Universe Online look like it was made by amateurs.

Radiac wrote:

*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*
This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!
I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

Yes. The UE4 looks like it can deliver on the pretty! The most important aspect imo! Grind? Don't care! As long as the game looks pretty!

Some of it depends on the style. Humberto Romas style can have distorted body proportions. DC Animated? Same!

This news is so big and so positive I registered just to say "congratulations"! Seriously, this is good stuff. I really look forward to seeing the results.

Illusionss wrote:

Radiac wrote:
*picks up jaw off the floor after watching you tube vids linked above*
This game is going to be GORGEOUS!!!
I can see now that my Fashionista dollars were money well spent.
*DROOLS*

I can see already I'm going to be spending a lot of money in this game. I am torn between chagrin and joy. No, joy is definitely winning out!
As far as style, I want the base models to be pretty recognizably human. CoX's were, and this worked well. I don't like super-stylized like Wildstar. I don't want even a hint of silly. Even "monstrous" forms should be aesthetically pleasing. CO has a costume pack of nothing but beast/monster heads, and every one of them more hideous than the last. I want beautifully monstrous/inhuman!!

I completely agree with this. Even players who want to play monsters want to at least look aesthetically pleasing. The number of people who like playing as genuinely ugly monstrosities are a pretty small minority, all told. A strong basis in real anatomy is a big plus, as well.

Well, it kinda does Lothic. If it cannot make a profit, it simply will cease to exist. The game cannot exist without turning a profit. Therefore, it IS the biggest priority. There's simply no getting away from that. A business has to make money.

But, these things aren't mutually exclusive. And trying to be a WoW killer or any other game killer never works anyway. Rather than competing with these other games, say MWM and CoT is competing with itself and its legacy. How far can they exceed expectations? We're gonna find out. That's the kind of team we've got. I don't think we need to worry about the details. They'll do it right.

Shadow Elusive wrote:

Well, it kinda does Lothic. If it cannot make a profit, it simply will cease to exist. The game cannot exist without turning a profit. Therefore, it IS the biggest priority. There's simply no getting away from that. A business has to make money.
But, these things aren't mutually exclusive. And trying to be a WoW killer or any other game killer never works anyway. Rather than competing with these other games, say MWM and CoT is competing with itself and its legacy. How far can they exceed expectations? We're gonna find out. That's the kind of team we've got. I don't think we need to worry about the details. They'll do it right.

Every time I make this point people think I'm saying "profit is not important" for MWM. Nothing could be further from the truth. Obviously MWM will have to make money to be viable in the long run.

My point always has, and will continue to be, that MWM's PRIMARY PRIORITY is to make and maintain CoT. Profit is mearly a means to that end. Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. They "got into the business" of being a company solely in order to make a spiritual successor to CoH. That was and always has been goal number one.

Now in the fullness of time if MWM manages to turn a significant profit from this endeavor then more power to them. I wouldn't "hate" them for being a runaway success. But I strongly suspect (and this is the point most people are missing here) that if MWM merely only manages to earn enough profit to "comfortably keep the lights on" then they'll probably still consider it to be a success because remember the GOAL here was to make a spiritual successor that was alive and playable, not hyper-profitable in and of itself.

top line game with UE4 cant wait see sceen shots

summer-heat wrote:

UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.
That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

Rather than "brighter, I'd say more "color saturated." "Grim zones" aren't as bad as all that. A living city should have both its shining face and gritty underbelly. I love how Gotham City is different from Metropolis in DCUO. We need places in which both the Soaring Hero and the Dark Vigilante can feel at home. But I stopped playing Fallout (an awesome game in most other respects) because of its relentlessly gray and depressing style. So I'm actually in agreement, here.

I'm absolutely on board with the models being more in line with real human anatomy. I'm in favor of the "comic book hero" proportions in general, and a little exaggeration for effect is expected in the genre (especially for villains) but too much distortion pushes into the "cartoon" realm and it doesn't seem like that's the way most folks on the boards here want to go. Me included. I've always favored Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil more than Jack Kirby or Todd McFarlane. Too many anatomy classes, I guess. :p

In terms of artstyle, I think what we need is City of Heroes, undated to what UE4 can do. I always liked the look of CoX - realistic, but comic book realistic. For me, "comic book realistic" is George Perez in the post Crisis on the Infinite Earths Wonder Woman reboot and the early Teen titans, and I felt that is what CoX had (limited to the technology of it's time).

Things I would like to see:

1) My character Tempest Master with blond flowing hair (yes, PLEASE give males more than 4 long hair styles - just make all hairstyles open to anyone - You want to be Beehive Man with a hairdo to match?... I won't judge... but I digress) and cape when he flies.

2) Wind auras... no visible aura, but constantly keeps hair/capes, dresses fluttering

3) Weather

4) Seasons (would love to see TM flying down the tree lined avenues around the main square in fall and kicking up a flare of leaves behind him)

5) "Invisible waves" not only for electromagnetic effects but also mental powers

6) Water effects that leave surfaces wet

7) Living cityscapes - lights in buildings going on and off randomly as day/night falls, foot traffic on streets changing based on time of day (business rush hour in morning and evening, lunch crowds, low foot traffic at night in business areas, high in "entertainment" zones (nightclubs/restaurant areas), street traffic attire changes based on time of day

8) When they are added to the game, mastermind minions that can be skinned in multiple ways (robots of different types, dinosaurs, ninjas, mercs, female ninjas, clowns... yes, CLOWNS... not for me of course.....). Basically a scaled down character creator for minions.

9) Body art/scars other than on the face, with more than one pattern selection

10) The one thing CO got right.... non-symmetric costuming and options for thigh/leg costume parts.

The list goes on, but basically CoX had most of these things.... with UE4, we can make it better than it was before... better... stronger... faster.... *insert bionic sound here*

PS - On thing you couldn't do real well in CoX is get to far outside the "heroic norm"... I had an artist at ComiCon do a sketch for me once... it was his vision of a middle aged Superman... still heroic in his proportions, but he had a gut, and was a bit slumped. It is one of my favorite sketches ever. Allow us to have characters that are not "superheroic" in stature. And for the women out there, please allow Mr Chest Slider to go down to 0 (instead of the low end being 5 or 6) as well as going up to 11. (I am going to stop short of non symmetrical breast sizing, although we do need it if we want to make a true Amazonian Princess....)

WarBird wrote:

summer-heat wrote:
UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!" To a limit, some realism should be desired to utilize the engine for as much as it can do than to buy the license just to replicate 700 poly toons and cookie-cutter buildings.
That said, regardless of style, I hope the character modellers and animators respect basic physical anatomy. The purple gang in CO looks so out of place with distorted body proportions that don't look right for the rest of the human models standing around. In WoW, the high-res movie clips with King Varian Wrynn give him such a cartoonish jaw that it looks like it's not attached to the skull properly compared to everyone else. More than limiting players' preferred styles, I'd just like them all to respect a core set of anatomy/physics rules.

Rather than "brighter, I'd say more "color saturated." "Grim zones" aren't as bad as all that. A living city should have both its shining face and gritty underbelly. I love how Gotham City is different from Metropolis in DCUO. We need places in which both the Soaring Hero and the Dark Vigilante can feel at home. But I stopped playing Fallout (an awesome game in most other respects) because of its relentlessly gray and depressing style. So I'm actually in agreement, here.
I'm absolutely on board with the models being more in line with real human anatomy. I'm in favor of the "comic book hero" proportions in general, and a little exaggeration for effect is expected in the genre (especially for villains) but too much distortion pushes into the "cartoon" realm and it doesn't seem like that's the way most folks on the boards here want to go. Me included. I've always favored Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil more than Jack Kirby or Todd McFarlane. Too many anatomy classes, I guess. :p

I'll keep hoping for Tony Daniel, Michael Turner, J Scott Campbell or Marc Silvestry style myself. *crosses fingers*

WarBird wrote:

All three outstanding artists, no doubt. Definitely post-Image in look (which is to say digitally colored) and very silmilar in their fusion-esque anatomy styles. I'd predict that UE4 will give us deeper coloring like that, and I'm all for it. I was mainly trying to delineate differences and extremes from more classic artists as far as their physique depictions. Otherwise, thumbs-up on your examples, too

I'm just worried I'll hate the look. :p

Wow, did that perturb my vertices!

Thanks, that expands on the glimpse of the tools demo in the link I posted earlier. I find this stuff completely fascinating. My programming days started with punch cards and ended when C++ was just coming into fashion, so this kind of stuff just blows my mind.

Does anyone know whether CoX was built with tools that were anything similar to this? Obviously not the same level of graphics, but were the UI and tool control system similar?

Tempest wrote:

In terms of artstyle, I think what we need is City of Heroes, undated to what UE4 can do. I always liked the look of CoX - realistic, but comic book realistic.

Same here. CoH - for the time - had that great mix of the real/plausible and the fantastic. CO is definitely too cartoony. DC Universe is better - but the CoT crew is probably working with better tech.

Lothic wrote:

Revolution wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Remember MWM didn't form as an independent game company which wanted to get into business to make successful MMOs. .

That would have been crazy. Starting a company from scratch with a volunteer workforce to build a successor to a shut down game is the only way to go.
Seriously though, if the game is half as good as we think it will be it will be a huge triumph. UE4 definitely is a step in the right direction. Up.
Up, up and away actually. ;)

How many other groups of devoted fans have gotten together to form a serious company for the sole purpose to create a spiritual successor to a dead game are you aware of? If CoH hadn't died the way it did would MWM even exist today?
The very fact that the origins of MWM isn't like "every other generic game company" out there pretty much dictates that it's going to operate in a unique way, even when it comes to profits. In the long run I wish MWM every penny of profit CoT can possibly earn. But honestly if it manages to keep CoT alive and maintained for 10+ years and only makes a total $1.47 net profit doing it I think most of us will still consider it a worth-while success.

I wouldn't call every other company "generic", but we are definitely something new and unique. It's our mandate to stay that way, too. MWM was born out of love and loss. I think we have seen a lot of changes since our little community's uproar and it won't stop there. Epic's new dev deals show it in a way. Just look at what Turbine has done with Asheron's Call! That is what listening to a community is like! I would like to think we may have helped that community with our own call to the industry.

summer-heat wrote:

UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!"

I want a mix of zones, as we had in CoX. We had bright and sunny. We had eternally overcast. We had eternal night - complete with ghosts. We had post-apocalyptic, we had sparkling urbanity. We had inside the Alien Spaceship. I am greedy, and I want it all.

Remember how beautiful twilight was in CoX? Can you imagine how beautiful it will be, with this engine? the mind boggles. I don't want it all happy/shiny. Big cities have downtown.... and they have Skid Row. So should CoT.

Illusionss wrote:

summer-heat wrote:
UE4 is capable of whatever style the devs decide, but I too hope it's brightly colored and varied enough that heroes and villains look perfectly fitting in whatever world this is without resorting to "grim zones" like Cryptic did with the Rogue Isles. Too often I think that darker games are done so the developers can say "look at our pretty light sources and surface scatter we paid top dollar for!!!"
I want a mix of zones, as we had in CoX. We had bright and sunny. We had eternally overcast. We had eternal night - complete with ghosts. We had post-apocalyptic, we had sparkling urbanity. We had inside the Alien Spaceship. I am greedy, and I want it all.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The concern summer-heat is voicing is one I share: the Rogue Isles didn't have a proper mix of zones. It really was more akin to the relentless drabness of Fallout[color=red]*[/color]. As I'd pointed out in another thread, just because something has the 'evil' label does not mean everything has to be grimdark all the time. It's difficult to feel as though I'm playing a villain when the setting is so oppressive and dehumanizing that my character feels like he's just another cog in the machine. To mention Fallout again, I found that they hit a good tone between the post-apocalyptic setting and that things aren't so bad that your character couldn't make them (a lot) worse.

[color=red]*[/color] I did not have a problem with this since it made sense for the post-apocalyptic setting, although even where color was available and appropriate it was kept subdued. Presumably to avoid jarring with the overall aesthetic.

...See, this is just me. I look at pix like this [this one is from one of the Arkham City games] and I imagine a zone like this in CoT and I'm all like "BRIIIIINGGGG IIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!" but I guess others don't feel the same? Honestly don't understand whats not to like about this. I think this sort of cityscape is simply gorgeous, and so full of atmosphere. Not saying an entire game should be like this, but why not a zone or two?

[img]http://place2play.ru/img/7b5ecc9c521b1b9e02495aa2a14c8d06/static/materials/39/7f/47f32246348b78a28d51df21fb4dc016.jpg?crop=1&size=1024x0[/img]

....but then I'm one of those lunatics who thought Spider City in Grandville was gorgeous, once I got used to making sure no cloaked Bane Spiders were around.