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Huckleberry
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Picking different paths has

Picking different paths has nothing to do with whether it is emergent or not. Brainbot and Dreamcatcher had it correctly when they stated
"using simple game mechanics to come up with complex, unique or unintended situations."
and
"Emergent gameplay is gameplay that arises over time that would otherwise not occur."

In other words, emergent gameplay is your kids playing with the box the toy came in. Making it into a rocketship or a fort or a parking garage for their hot wheels.
Emergent gameplay in an MMO is when players create their own social constructs in order to accomplish something that isn't a mission or a quest, but because they have their own derived rewards. Sandbox MMO like Archage and EVE are the kings of emergent gameplay. All they do is make certain resources available in certain locations and make everything in game buildable by players, and then let the players loose in the game world.

So what Tanim is referring to when he says that this system will lead to emergent gameplay is that by creating the alignment mechanic, players will be leaving groups or forming groups for alignment reasons that they otherwise wouldn't be doing. Its not Emergent with all the bells and whistles of sandbox play, but he is not wrong either, because it actually is emergent behavior.

So MWM has given you the ability to actually act in-character and

  • make a stand against your teammates, or
  • do something you don't want to do for the good of the team, and now you will have to live with yourself (oh the angst!, emo characters will love it)
  • argue with your teammates about the correct course of action

All these things would not even exist without the alignment system. They enrich the gameplay, in my opinion. Will they cause fracturing of the player base? maybe. Will they cause PUGs to be undesirable for alignment-conscious characters? definitely.

But MWM decided that this is the effect they want it to have.

The very fact that so many of us are arguing about it means it is a successful decision. I say this because it means that many of us think that alignment matters enough for it to actually lead to emergent player behavior in game. What that emergent behavior will be, and whether it will be good for the game is apparently the grist for this discussion mill.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
TheInternetJanitor
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It sounds like this decision

It sounds like this decision has already been made and if the game comes out people will be able to experience it and give feedback at that point.

The project seems to be in a spot where it is too late to really change decisions since the devs are trying to push towards an actual release of some kind, and too early for people to get hands on experience with it and give feedback.

So all the threads on this forum end up where people with very little information get worked up despite (or because) they can only see a tiny slice of the picture. I've certainly been a part of plenty of those discussions since I joined.

Which is pretty normal behavior for humanity in general honestly.

If this mechanic or any other turns out to be a big problem it can always be brought up during beta I suppose. How MWM handles feedback will be a big crucible, one that has made or broken dev studios many times for multiple reasons, so we'll have to wait and see. I could write a great deal just on that topic alone since so many dev studios have real trouble collecting and analyzing feedback and data from their games, turning that into actionable intelligence, and especially making solid decisions based on it. The pitfalls are many, and are not at all limited to the commonplace "ignoring the desires of the customers" and "pandering to loud minorities".

I have the highest of hopes for this project but I am practical by nature. Time will tell. Sooner or later, time will tell.

TheInternetJanitor
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Some interesting points

You have to ask yourself if "making players not want to play with each other" is the desired goal here. I'm not sure how that "enriches gameplay". Or how discussions on a topic prove it is a good decision. If we're all in a car and the driver wants to drive off a cliff there is going to be some seriously heated discussion in that car. "Making people concerned" is not generally considered the go to metric to judge an inspirational example of leadership or decision making.

Cobalt Azurean
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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

So all the threads on this forum end up where people with very little information get worked up despite (or because) they can only see a tiny slice of the picture. I've certainly been a part of plenty of those discussions since I joined.

This is fairly accurate.

Brainbot
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

So what Tanim is referring to when he says that this system will lead to emergent gameplay is that by creating the alignment mechanic, players will be leaving groups or forming groups for alignment reasons that they otherwise wouldn't be doing. Its not Emergent with all the bells and whistles of sandbox play, but he is not wrong either, because it actually is emergent behavior.

Emergent gameplay directly relates to how a player uses the game mechanics not how they react to them.
The term 'emergent behavior' has a pretty specific definition in science. It was in fact the inspiration for why 'emergent gameplay' was coined to describe the interaction of different game mechanics into unforeseen gameplay. I know you are not using the scientific definition by the context in which you used that term but I am unsure what you attribute as 'emergent behavior'. Could you explain your meaning further?

Atama
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Atama wrote:

That’s a perfect example.

Colossus teams up with Deadpool. Says there’s no killing. Deadpool reluctantly agrees. They get into an intense situation, Deadpool tries to reason with people, gets frustrated and starts executing people.

From the game perspective, that’s Colossus teamed with DP, who gets hit by the “violent” outcome consequences despite his best efforts because he grouped with an insane psychopath. Now Colossus gets the reputation/alignment hit even though it’s not what he wanted to do.

I like this, it feels very comicbooky. (Patent pending on that word.)

This is an example of an individual overriding a group decision. It's the opposite of what will happen in a game where votes determine outcome.

I was imagining a situation with just DP and Colossus in a group. In that situation who is overriding whom?

Project_Hero
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Atama wrote:

That’s a perfect example.

Colossus teams up with Deadpool. Says there’s no killing. Deadpool reluctantly agrees. They get into an intense situation, Deadpool tries to reason with people, gets frustrated and starts executing people.

From the game perspective, that’s Colossus teamed with DP, who gets hit by the “violent” outcome consequences despite his best efforts because he grouped with an insane psychopath. Now Colossus gets the reputation/alignment hit even though it’s not what he wanted to do.

I like this, it feels very comicbooky. (Patent pending on that word.)

This is an example of an individual overriding a group decision. It's the opposite of what will happen in a game where votes determine outcome.

I was imagining a situation with just DP and Colossus in a group. In that situation who is overriding whom?

They had three people. Deadpool is party leader. Deadpool chose to kill, Colossus chose to not, and Negasonic Teenage Warhead chose to abstain.

Team leader's choice take precedence :V

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Brainbot
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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I was imagining a situation with just DP and Colossus in a group. In that situation who is overriding whom?

According to Tannim the way the votes play out is majority rules with team leader breaking ties. In a duo the vote will always go with the team leaders choice, in essence overriding the rest of the team. If Deadpool is team leader there is nothing Colossus can do to stop him from killing if he wants to and if Colossus is team leader Deadpool can never kill without getting Colossus to agree to it.

In duos the vote mechanic becomes a foregone conclusion so the dynamic you presented could never happen without specific conditions.

To be fair, I thought your example was a description of a scene in Deadpool 2 so I made an assumption of what you were describing. I apologize if I upset you.

Interdictor
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I'd like to bring up the fact that the way MWM intends to do this is probably the most empowering of any of the options available. I also don't think it will be nearly as derailing as some fear.

I tend to agree - absent a real-life GM dictating the flow of the game, this is probably about the best way to handle alignment-shifting missions - at least for the majority of players.

rookslide
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It sounds like the mechanic

It sounds like the mechanic will help the solo players to follow whatever path they choose with ease while forcing teams to make compromises which is what life is all about. The story of your personal life is directly impacted and altered by those you interact with.

Personally I don’t see there being enough options in story path/arcs for this to be terribly upsetting as some see it. Perhaps I’m wrong won’t know til I play a bit, none of us will.

The “emergent” factor as the devs are using it is not defined as strictly as the mmo genre at large would but then neither is this game. COH was unique in numerous ways within the mmo-iverse as will be COT.

Asking the Devs to explain ad nauseam the details of any one admittedly confusing mechanic simply because you don’t like or disagree (rightly or not) with their explanations does not help them get work done toward the goal, does not clear up the matter if they can only explain what they have in a single limited way for reasons we don’t fully understand or perhaps appreciate, nor does help to be able to say I told you so about a simple point of vernacular definition.

In short, (yes I’m not blind to the fallacy of this) the devs can’t tell us everything before releasing the beta nor should they and if that is reason enough for some to not play well then that is on those individuals not MWM. Yes it would help if they had dedicated people to manage these sorts of things but every one of the main dev staff wear several hats and none of them are there simply to see that we, “get it.” It’s a game, you don’t get to know all before you play, live with it. This information is what feedback is for I agree, but there are walls that can’t just drop all at once. Nor should they, we simply need to recognize when those walls are in place and accept what we can not change...yet.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

Atama
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Atama wrote:

I was imagining a situation with just DP and Colossus in a group. In that situation who is overriding whom?

According to Tannim the way the votes play out is majority rules with team leader breaking ties. In a duo the vote will always go with the team leaders choice, in essence overriding the rest of the team. If Deadpool is team leader there is nothing Colossus can do to stop him from killing if he wants to and if Colossus is team leader Deadpool can never kill without getting Colossus to agree to it.

In duos the vote mechanic becomes a foregone conclusion so the dynamic you presented could never happen without specific conditions.

To be fair, I thought your example was a description of a scene in Deadpool 2 so I made an assumption of what you were describing. I apologize if I upset you.

YOU FILLED ME WUTH NERD RAGE!!!

Naw it’s cool. :p I didn’t explain my scenario very well.

Project_Hero
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It's funny because nerds get

It's funny because nerds get irrationality angry a lot.

Nerds are the worst.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Dark Cleric
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It's funny because nerds get irrationality angry a lot.

Nerds are the worst.

By most people's definition of the word 'nerd', everyone on this forum is a nerd since we're all waiting on not only an mmo, but a superhero comicbook-esque mmo at that. You, good sir, are a nerd. As am I, proudly. How boring life would be to be anything else, always stuck in reality.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

dreamcatcher
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It's funny because nerds get irrationality angry a lot.

Nerds are the worst.

By most people's definition of the word 'nerd', everyone on this forum is a nerd since we're all waiting on not only an mmo, but a superhero comicbook-esque mmo at that. You, good sir, are a nerd. As am I, proudly. How boring life would be to be anything else, always stuck in reality.

I fairly sure his remark was toungue in cheek, Cleric ????

Perhaps you got that, perhaps not. ????

of Phoenix Rising
Am I

Project_Hero
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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It's funny because nerds get irrationality angry a lot.

Nerds are the worst.

By most people's definition of the word 'nerd', everyone on this forum is a nerd since we're all waiting on not only an mmo, but a superhero comicbook-esque mmo at that. You, good sir, are a nerd. As am I, proudly. How boring life would be to be anything else, always stuck in reality.

I am indeed a colossal nerd.

Nerds (collective noun) are the worst. Nerds (individuals) can still be fine.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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MeSoSollyWan
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I assume Tannim meant it'll be difficult teaming with someone of an opposing faction because having a member of your team attacked by your quest NPCs will make it harder to team with them.

Harder, but not impossible. "Go wait over there while I talk to the police."

I don't think situations like that will happen until after the decision is made, because of that very reason.

The old game did this by making said NPC non-targetable or able to be targeted, but unable to attack said target until decision was clicked.

If they go another route in CoT they will be opening the door for griefing en masse.

Anyways, all this being said I am really not worried about this system at all. From what Tannim has posted it seems alright so far, and none of the rest of us will know actual intricacies until we get way closer to release. (like pretty much all aspects of the game thus far)

Project_Hero
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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I assume Tannim meant it'll be difficult teaming with someone of an opposing faction because having a member of your team attacked by your quest NPCs will make it harder to team with them.

Harder, but not impossible. "Go wait over there while I talk to the police."

I don't think situations like that will happen until after the decision is made, because of that very reason.

The old game did this by making said NPC non-targetable or able to be targeted, but unable to attack said target until decision was clicked.

If they go another route in CoT they will be opening the door for griefing en masse.

Anyways, all this being said I am really not worried about this system at all. From what Tannim has posted it seems alright so far, and none of the rest of us will know actual intricacies until we get way closer to release. (like pretty much all aspects of the game thus far)

The NPC may be untargetable, but if he's a cop inside the precinct? Have fun fighting a bunch of cops and losing your rep with them.

But yeah, like you I'm not worried about the system. Chances are I'll be mostly doing leads missions, when I can, anyway. So I have no stake in this.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Dark Cleric
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I assume Tannim meant it'll be difficult teaming with someone of an opposing faction because having a member of your team attacked by your quest NPCs will make it harder to team with them.

Harder, but not impossible. "Go wait over there while I talk to the police."

I don't think situations like that will happen until after the decision is made, because of that very reason.

The old game did this by making said NPC non-targetable or able to be targeted, but unable to attack said target until decision was clicked.

If they go another route in CoT they will be opening the door for griefing en masse.

Anyways, all this being said I am really not worried about this system at all. From what Tannim has posted it seems alright so far, and none of the rest of us will know actual intricacies until we get way closer to release. (like pretty much all aspects of the game thus far)

The NPC may be untargetable, but if he's a cop inside the precinct? Have fun fighting a bunch of cops and losing your rep with them.

But yeah, like you I'm not worried about the system. Chances are I'll be mostly doing leads missions, when I can, anyway. So I have no stake in this.

I might be completely off but I took it to mean it will be difficult because of the fewer available missions between the 'hero' route and 'villain' route, so they won't be teaming up as frequently since they'll be doing different missions.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

MeSoSollyWan
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I assume Tannim meant it'll be difficult teaming with someone of an opposing faction because having a member of your team attacked by your quest NPCs will make it harder to team with them.

Harder, but not impossible. "Go wait over there while I talk to the police."

I don't think situations like that will happen until after the decision is made, because of that very reason.

The old game did this by making said NPC non-targetable or able to be targeted, but unable to attack said target until decision was clicked.

If they go another route in CoT they will be opening the door for griefing en masse.

Anyways, all this being said I am really not worried about this system at all. From what Tannim has posted it seems alright so far, and none of the rest of us will know actual intricacies until we get way closer to release. (like pretty much all aspects of the game thus far)

The NPC may be untargetable, but if he's a cop inside the precinct? Have fun fighting a bunch of cops and losing your rep with them.

But yeah, like you I'm not worried about the system. Chances are I'll be mostly doing leads missions, when I can, anyway. So I have no stake in this.

@ the bolded

This is a really good point, but I think the answer comes as quickly as the problem: the players that will be the most upset about fighting the cops would be the ones who are heavily RPing a "good" and moral character, right?

So that RPer can do some RPing, and just leave the team?

In a comic setting, if a new hero was to join a group and start helping them, only to find that this character actually hates the group's values.. What does that character do? They leave. They don't get involved and they walk away to find something else.

So if this really boils down to a problem with roleplaying, then the roleplayer should be easily able to click a "Leave Group/Party/Team" button. Problem solved? RPing remains in tact?

This very situation actually happens in Stranger Things season 2 now that I think about it.

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Yeah, all the system really

Yeah, all the system really means is if you're doing missions for non-neutral parties then you just have to be a little discerning on who you team with.

And in response to Dark Cleric; I just assumed you'd be able to team with anyone and share missions regardless. But there could be things where in order to receive a mission shared by the leader you need to meet certain requirements. Though I feel that would impact teaming way more, as you couldn't sidekick people to mission with. You'd still be able to go down to their level though, I guess.

It'd be neat to team with a villain who wants to reform though. Bring him through your hero missions so the cops don't shoot at 'im.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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