Note: This is a topic regarding worldbuilding with the mind to improve the player's experience by increasing immersion.
One of the things that is difficult for Superhero fiction to consistently address is the legal status of the superheros. The villains are obviously straight-up criminals (though this can be subverted as well), but Heroes sit in an odd place where their actions are portrayed as morally correct within the story, but would likely be considered reckless to the point of civil liability if not outright criminal. Therefore, I propose that the game recognize various categories of the legal status of certain activities, and the character's legal status within the context of the game.
My idea for allowing characters to participate in super-heroic missions without running foul of the law (if the player wants to go that route) is that the law states that citizen that can be deputized by a sworn LEO to assist in emergencies. This takes the form of a police contact the player can talk to similar to classic CoX contacts. That contact temporarily deputizes the Player Character as part of the mission briefing, along with providing an arrest or search warrant as applicable.
Additionally, the players have a "police scanner" that serves as a way for the character to have access to "emergency response" missions as a good Samaritan with no particular legal authority beyond a typical citizen responding to an emergency and acting in the defense of others (legal use of force in the defense of others is typical in real-life use of force law).
My view is this minimizes the Fridge Logic about a bunch of cos-players beating up street thugs over vandalism, as a civil rights lawyer would legitimately have a field day suing the tights off the player randomly attacking Hellions and Skulls just for hanging out on a street-corner.
Naturally, this doesn't remotely preclude legally sketchy or outright criminal missions through other contacts. I figure the legally sanctioned missions are potentially the stickiest though.
Thoughts? Criticisms? Suggestions?
Sic Semper Tyrannis
I am pretty sure much of this can be handled though the reputation system (and later the path system).
What I mean is if you have a good reputation with law enforcement you can, if you so desire, assume that you are working on their behalf (in the case of crime fighters) or have a more untouchable status that many comic book villains have. The legality aspect is likely something fairly unobtrusive in the games lore and mechanics to allow for as much personal freedom in how the players interpret it on a character to character basis.
The game is unlikely to be able to provide lore or mechanical elements for every situation that a player can come up with so it behooves the player to find ways to make their concepts work within the games lore and mechanics. Of course you can also freely choose to ignore any aspect of lore the game presents and imagine it to be something completely different.
I personally have been avoiding most of the lore updates that MWM has released, I want to learn it in game, but I think they have addressed the legality aspect already. check the kickstarter updates to read up on it.
I'd have no problem with this kind of thing as long as it was [b]purely optional[/b]. But if happen to want to play my "heroes" differently than what you've described I should not be penalized for that.
We already know this game will allow characters to gain "reputations" with various factions of the game. If you want to play in a way that puts you on good terms with local law enforcement you should be able to gain perks from that. But if I want to play a semi-lawless vigilante the game should not make it fundamentally harder to play that way.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I agree that the mechanical side will be reputation. I'm not really trying to argue mechanics here, just background lore/worldbuilding. How it is framed can affect the tone of the story being told, and can have background implications that won't explicitly be dealt with in mechanics.
I remember in CoH, where you were explicitly a hero, in the lore you had a license/certification that allowed you the authority you exercised in the game. The Going Rogue expansion added some grey areas, but I sometimes felt like it was rather tacked on without a lot of consideration to the implications of allowing a person who has murdered literally hundreds of Longbow Agents join the local police.
Again, not really arguing mechanics so much as writing here.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
From a purely lore and/or "writing" point of view the more vague the Devs of CoT keep things the better it'll be for people to be able to create their own character concepts.
Sure the Devs need to provide plenty of background lore concerning things like enemy factions and history of the city and the like. But the more they try to shoehorn a specific "origin story" on PCs then the more we're going to either have to conform to that pretense or figure how ways why we don't fit in with the "system" provided.
Even CoH's idea that all heroes were "automatically registered" with the city was a bit of a collar that you either had to accept or ignore accordingly. TBH I'd rather they not assume that all heroes are working at the behest of the city police. If you want to roleplay your character doing that then have fun with that. I'm just saying things like that should be kept as vague and undefined as possible.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
See our "Law for Supers" update. I think this will answer [i]some[/i] of your concerns
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/812507
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Holy cow! Somebody gave this a great deal of thought! Most of this reads like rather realistic legalese. It also gives me a pretty clear idea of what the values are of registering. While there are no ramifications of being an unregistered discussed I think it likely one will readily become labeled vigilante.
Nice work there!
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
And from what Dr. Tyche has said about a certain bank map, deciding whether or not you are registered at the end of the tutorial is your first opportunity to place a data point on the Lawful/Unlawful axis. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I would simply submit there are going to be some "heroes" out there who don't really care what the "authorities" think of them and don't really care what they are "labeled" as.
[youtube=450x300]TFwprS_L6tg[/youtube]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Not starting an argument, making any assumptions or trying to be insulting. This is just a fun side note. This clip from Blazing Saddles (as well as countless other movies, TV shows and other media) is an example of the supposed Mandela effect.
The original from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is often remembered and quoted wrong due mostly to spoofings such as the one Lothic used, not alternate dimensional crossover. You can see the actual quote at 0:18 in this clip.
[youtube=450x300]4OcM23Hbs5U[/youtube]
I only just started looking at this ridiculous but fun 'theory'. It is interesting, to me if no one else, how a collective can feed on itself to influence memory or how assumption can turn into belief.
At least that is my takeaway of the Mandela effect.
For what it's worth I was aware that the "stinking badges" scene from Blazing Saddles was simply a "joke" based on another more serious movie (in this case [i]The Treasure of the Sierra Madre[/i]). When you analyze Blazing Saddles you'll instantly realize that a huge amount of its content is based on making fun of other books/movies/people and so on. Regardless in the context of this thread and the point I was trying to make I PROPERLY referenced the Blazing Saddles version of this for a specific reason.
I get that some people want to seriously consider the implications of having their heroes be "registered" with Titan City law enforcement and account for the "realistic ramifications" of all the collateral fallout of "cosplayers running around dispensing justice" in the city. I have no fundamental problem with that.
But just as the bandits in the Blazing Saddles scene were essentially making fun of Hedley Lamarr for wanting them to have "silly badges" my point here is that there will be "Heroes" in CoT who will look at the idea of being "registered" with the authorities as being completely laughable and would consider it the very last thing they'd ever want to do.
So while your reference to the Mandela effect is interesting it actually has no direct application here. I wasn't making a mistake by not referencing the original "serious/dramatic" version of the badge scene as depicted in the [i]The Treasure of the Sierra Madre[/i]. I was specifically pointing out that to some people submitting to something like what's being discussed here for CoT is a laughable joke just like it was in the Blazing Saddles version.
Please don't assume that it's incorrect to point to a "derivative reference" of something else. I referenced the "version" of this I ACTAULLY wanted to reference to make the point I was trying to make.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
What is wrong with you?
The first two sentences of my post were supposed to head off this stupidity. How pathologically insecure are you to miss, not arguing, no assumptions or insult and side note?
Seriously, whoever the moderators are here need to curb this asshat.
Are you so pathologically insecure that I'm not allowed respond to your post to let you know that while you raised an interesting point that it didn't really apply here? Get a grip my friend and be mindful of the direct personal insults. A response to one of your posts is not an automatic argument or insult against your apparently thin-skinned cleverness.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I will just wait to see if there is any moderation before I respond.
I see a couple phenomenon at work here.
First is that regular who sits at the bar of the saloon or the diner or what have you. The regular is so comfortable with the staff that he or she starts to intrude into conversations that the staff have, starts to assume that he or she is actually a friend of the staff and ends up without an active governor. So the regular ends up speaking and saying things that he or she really shouldn't. And the worst part is they don't see it themselves. They've broken the seal and the staff are too service oriented to call them on it. That's Lothic.
Second is the guy who takes every disagreement or alternate opinion as a personal attack. That's Brainbot.
Then there's the pompous ass who always thinks he knows all, or at least best. And that's me.
But you know what? That's who we are. I accept it and it doesn't make me love you guys any less. We are united by our enthusiasm for the game and our willingness to engage it with each other. Have you ever watched shows like "Friends" and wonder how these six people could ever actually be friends in real life, because you know they would never put up with each other they way they were? But have you also at the same time wondered why real life couldn't be like that where the people who are so different from each other can accept each other for who they are and remain friends anyway?
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I just think its funny how every topic always leads to arguments. Im telling you, its our exasperation with not being able to play this game. Its getting to us. Ive been guilty of it too. We're like piranhas, we devour every little bit of info the devs give us and fight over it.
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[color=#FF0000]Graphic Designer[/color]
after reading this most excellent work, my personal tendency would be to register, I could keep my secret ID and receive legal protection, even testify with my mask on.
The benefits outweigh the negatives.
---but that is me.
I have characters like Talos would would never register because he doesn't trust the govt that much.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Well, we do have a lawyer as one of our writers. He knows how to make legal stuff make sense. (Note: he is [b][i]NOT[/i][/b] one of MWM's lawyers...he is only a writer with respect to MWM, he just happens to have the right background to make this an effective update)
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
/em looks expectantly at Huckleberry
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So you're saying I'm this forum's version of Cliff Clavin? LOL I'll take it - at least that means I'm not the "pompous ass" or "the thin-skinned wonder" in this equation. ;)
[youtube=450x300]k6GTZrcoWEM[/youtube]
At least I'll never write a post with wording along the lines of "I forbid anyone to respond to this post because it's obviously so perfect that feedback of any kind must represent your attempt to personally attack me in the most vile and reprehensible way possible". Frankly even I don't possess the hubris needed to think I could command that much respect here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
HAH! You crack me up.
When you get an idea in your head:
[youtube]LH39D51Lufk[/youtube]
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I'm sure Huckleberry will give you a good "label". For what it's worth I don't consider you as annoying as those three idiots he's already called out. ;)
[EDIT] LOL Huckleberry actually beat me to it ;) [/EDIT]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Still hate the games lore they've given.
You're an AI! You're given rights! Never have to worry about RPing that aspect, because it's right there in the lore to already.
Next we have the register if you know martial arts. Something that isn't done in RL, why would it all of a sudden be done in CoT life? o.O
You can kill fleeing violent felons in the game lore! "He was running away from me and he was violent...so I killed him!" "Yup! You were in the right!" "Wait...he was fleeing because he thought the guns the hero was using would beat his stabby knives."
Yeap, [font=lucida bright]AIko[/font] doesn't need to worry about the government of the United States seizing her as property to try to reverse engineer the gadgeteering her moms did to make her. (In the CoT universe at least, not so true for her WtC analog.) But she still has to worry about those who might try to kidnap her for similar purposes, or who might try to destroy her outright. And if some of those that are trying to kidnap or kill her have a subset of the US Government in their pockets, or are part of a Foreign Government? Nearly as much of a problem as not having any rights, especially if they get you off of U.S. soil.
Easy enough to get away with. Don't brag. If anyone asks, claim that your training doesn't include killing/destructive blows; you haven't reached that level yet. And then never use them (the killing/destructive blows you claim you don't know) in public until you have to. At which point, everyone knows, so what's the big deal?
Felon has a specific meaning in law; that the person was convicted of committing a felony, someone observed committing a felony might fit this also. "Violent Felon" is usually used to indicate someone convicted of (or maybe observed) committing a violent felony; it can be argued (and if your lawyer is good, he likely will) that this violent felon, fleeing the scene of a(nother) crime, would likely commit violent crimes again unless apprehended.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I'll give you two of those.
Those killing/destructive blows would still follow under, "No such thing as registering as a dangerous weapon, if you know martial arts" :p
I'd still argue the fleeing violent felon likely wouldn't get far. "He was a killer!" "Where's your proof at the time? Even now, we're not 100% sure! So are you saying, you guessed he was a fleeing felon?" :p
And the AI having no rights can still have those other stories. So one story was just taken away :p
You only register if you wear a mask...that's the key. Martial arts is what makes you equivalent to the other heroes.
Seriously...I consider a martial artist much more dangerous...he has a lifetime of training, where a hero only has raw power. A trained fighter will use whatever is available to win, where a super might let his power think for him (how can my powers get me out of this?).
Hawkgirl isn't as powerful as my Black Falcon...but her years of training would win the day,,,Falcon never trained to fight until she got her power at 19 years old.
Bottom line: a martial artist with a public ID is a known factor. He can be sued or prosecuted. A martial artist with a secret ID is more dangerous precisely because no knows who he is...He can kill and go underground. Hero registration with all the benefits encourages more responsible behavior from a mask.
That is why a MA with a mask needs to register....besides its an ice breaker with the hot chicky babes in Titan city.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Perfect Perry would have to hide his whole face, to keep a secret identity. But his Face is how he auto-taunts bad guys, so he's gotta let it be seen. His superior smirk is weapons grade, so does he have to register a smirk-power? Or just the glowing punchy-fists?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I think I pointed out elsewhere in another thread, on Guam (where I used to live) martial artists are required to register once they reach some arbitrary level of aptitude.
[i]“A karate or judo expert required to register by the provisions of this Chapter shall be a person trained in the arts of karate, judo or other hand-to-hand fighting technique, whereby the hands, feet or other parts of the body are used as weapons, who shall have completed at least one level of training therein and shall have been issued a belt or other symbol showing proficiency in such art.”[/i]
It also says that it includes “any similar physical are[sic] in which the hands and feet are used as deadly weapons.” Law enforcement and military personnel are exempt.
http://www.guamcourts.org/compileroflaws/GCA/10gca/10gc062.pdf (PDF warning)
It’s really stupid but it’s real.
[/nitpick]
Yeah well Guam still has strip joints where sailors can get tied up to old-timey ship steering wheels and get bare-assed paddled with frat-boy style paddles so I wouldn't read too much into their supposed "legal system" out there. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Just want to bring this up because it seems so very, very, very true. In basically every thread you can feel the tension as everyone is salivating with tensed muscles waiting to pounce. Everyone just wants to play the game :)
If nothing else it's just a simple question of available time. People who are spending a certain number of hours per week on this forum right now will instead be "wasting" those same hours playing the game once it launches. People simply won't have the time to bicker and quibble as much here as we do now. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah I remember hearing that once long ago.
I’m wondering if one doesn’t register and then does bad stuff for good reasons does game tally that toward vigilantism but if he just dies bad stuff and not have any good reasons then he becomes a villain? I guess the question is even if we register as a hero can we “go rogue”, or “go bad” and actually get realigned as villain? And thusly get hounded by the law? That would’ve a pretty cool mechanism though difficult to manage...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
In a similar vein can one who didn't register do so at a later time?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
You put a bunch of people with differing opinions in the same place arguments are bound to pop up.
But also I agree with what others (possibly Lothic) has said, that once the game goes live most of us will waste time in game rather than on the forums.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
CoH allowed a character, in its relatively simplistic way, to traverse going all the way from "hero" to "villain" and everything in-between. I would hope that however the alignment/reputation system works in CoT that it would also allow you to make a "round trip" from being the most heroic hero to the most villainous villain and anything in-between.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah and I’m thinking they will do something along those lines in COT too.
It’s funny to me just because most of my characters were quite definitely good or bad but I could see having some that traipse across the line regularly.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
This came up in the [url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/registered-crimefighter-how-exactly-does-it-work]"Registered Crimefighter - How Exactly Does It Work?" thread[/url] from 2 months ago:
So it appears as if you won't be able to register again, but you can work to get the same alignment score later on as if you had registered, apparently.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I'm guessing the "act of registering" is not really a binary accomplishment as much as a "one time alignment shift". It's not something you "must" do in order to be a hero but it probably represents something like say a "+4 shift" on the law/chaos alignment scale. Obviously that would give you a good boost towards being "heroic" but it's not something that couldn't be gained in other ways.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I swear I saw Doctor Tyche state somewhere on the forums that you’ll have the option to change your mind and register at a later point, if you don’t do it immediately after the bank robbery. (Unless you’re a villain. They probably just arrest villains if they try to register :D ).
Edit: nope, can’t find it and don’t have time to continue looking at the moment.
Could you be thinking of the discussion with the Game Space Game Show folks?
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I believe that's the only place to have it. The US, where CoT is, for sure doesn't have it.
Newsflash. Guam is the US.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
News flash. Guam obviously has different laws than the US. It's a territory of the US. They don't even have any real factor in the vote for president, as they have no electoral votes. They are not part of the US in which I was so obviously speaking :p
Lethal force to stop a fleeing violent felon [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule]has precedent in IRL.[/url] The validity of the claim would likely be hashed out in court IRL.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Precedent, yes, still don't think it get far anymore with social media so prevalent. "OMG! He shot him and he was unarmed!"
Innocent until social media says otherwise! :p
Guam is as part of the US as any other part. It’s American soil, and subject to all US law. All citizens of Guam are full US citizens.
The District of Columbia has no electoral votes and doesn’t elect a voting representative to the US Congress, just a non-voting delegate, same as Guam. Is DC not a part of the US either?!
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
You have to register martial arts in Guam, not anywhere else in the US. Obviously, Guam has different laws
DC is the capital of the US. Also, DC gets Electoral votes (3). Guam does not. That by the way, means zero. :p
Guam has their own local laws, the same way that every single state, county, city, and town everywhere else in the US does. They’re still subject to the same federal laws as the rest of the US (just like all the states/towns/etc in other parts of the US are). The same goes for Puerto Rico and all other US territories.
Exactly. Your state/town/county could have the same law if the citizens and/or elected representatives chose to enact it.
I hate dragging out tangential discussions, especially when I’m just trying to give out an interesting factoid, but I really dislike when someone insists on spreading misinformation. You can’t have a real discussion that way.
What difference does it make really? Ok Guam is a territory not a state. Not much difference there if you dig into the politics of it. Now Guam has its own laws like any other state or territories and unique among them is a law that many people don’t even realize is more lore than reality through much of the world. Nonetheless it is a law there.
Personally, I wouldn’t think a regular person with a black belt or whatever other degree of martial arts proficiency would be a registration consideration. However, a super powered martial arts expert would be another story...
Of course I could easily see this person operating with little regard for any registration requirements. As it would be easy enough to function in secret for quite some time so long as he kept whatever other “powers” he had under control.
Be that as it may I believe others here are quite correct in the assertion that traipsing the accepted politically-correct registration line will be possible in the game according to the devs. To what extent this impacts gameplay, that is the real question! And I think one we will have to ponder in the forums (guessing land) as that mechanic should and I believe likely will remain a surprise for after launch.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
I think it’d be pretty cool to have a character like Spider-Man, who is heroic and always helping people and yet keeps running afoul of the law anyway and has to flee whenever the authorities show up. If there is a hero/villain axis, and a lawful/vigilante axis, and both axes are independent of each other, you can end up with some fascinating combinations.
I’m also intrigued with the idea of a lawful villain. Perhaps you ally with corrupt city officials and are supported by law enforcement yet fight against costumed heroes.
As I mentioned before I still suspect the "act of registering" is not really a strict binary accomplishment as much as it is a "one time alignment shift". It's not something you "must" do in order to be a hero but it probably represents something like say a "+4 shift" on the law/chaos alignment scale. Obviously that would give you a good boost towards being "heroic" but it's not something that couldn't be gained in other ways.
By simply being a one time alignment shift the long term ramifications of whether or not you actually ever register might not ultimately be that important.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I love stories where the guy that ought to be the "villain" is actually a person who is helping to save the day. I'm not necessarily talking about a "suicide squad" scenario where you have actual evil-doers simply temporarily acting as good guys. I'm talking about lawful authority figures who are completely "legitimate" yet their motives and methods tend to be totally at odds against the default "heroes" of the story.
One prime example of this was [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Bester_%28Babylon_5%29]Alfred Bester[/url] from Babylon 5. Basically Bester was a leader of the Psi Corp which was a government organization meant to represent/control human telepaths. He of course had his own motivations and agendas which constantly put him at odds against the main heroes of the show but because he was a fully authorized government official he was technically never the "bad guy" and he actually did try to help the heroes but only where it suited his own plans. The main heroes of the show constantly treated Bester with well-deserved contempt and suspicion even though technically they were all on the "same side" of the greater conflict of the show. Essentially Bester was their ultimate "Frienemy".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The old "Lawful jerk" alignment?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Its hero (registered) vs vigilante (not registered). I’m pretty sure there will be ramifications/consequences beyond a simple number shift. If nothing else, police will probably react/respond differently when they see you, based on whether you’re registered or not, as well as your alignment/reputation and their individual personal opinions of you. Just look at the first couple of seasons of Arrow and how Detective Lance viewed Oliver and the things he did, for example. I do know something was said somewhere regarding hero vs vigilante vs villain, though I don’t think the conversation covered a registered hero turning rogue. (Could we perhaps get a lore update covering all of that at some point?)
Remember, the law says you have 30 days to register. I highly doubt you’ll do it on the spot. Either a window will pop up asking and you’ll teleport/load screen to city hall or the police station or wherever if you choose to register immediately, or else you’ll have to walk/run/fly to wherever you go to register. Once that registration window passes, there will probably be two different logic trees for how people react to you based on your alignment: one for registered, one for not registered. (That seems to me like the simplest way to handle it.)
Unlike CoH there will be not definite "categories" our characters are going to be pigeonholed into. We are not strictly going to be "heroes" or "villains", redsiders or bluesiders. The alignment system will allow for shades of grey in-between. That's why the idea of a binary difference between being "strictly registered" or "strictly unregistered" makes no logical sense based on what we already know of how the alignment system in this game is going to work.
The Devs have already told us that the alignment/reputation system in CoT is going to be fluid and it will be possible to go up and down the scales as desired. So again the idea that anything in the game would represent a "hard choice" in that system that would have [b]permanent ramifications[/b] (such as the apparent notion about whether you are "registered" or not) does not seem to apply.
The question of registration will affect how NPCs view you only in as much as it provides a specific one-time alignment/reputation shift. Such a shift CANNOT possibly be permanent (or otherwise irreversible) because we already know there will be many ways to affect overall alignment/reputation status. Think of it this way: Do you think the law enforcement of Titan City would care if you're "registered" if you subsequently killed a million people in the city? Likewise if you were unregistered and -saved- a million people do you think they would shun you from enjoying some well deserved perks with them?
Registration cannot be a "binary accomplishment" in this game and allow for everything else we know about alignment/reputation to remain true.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Are you registered? Yes? Ok, we’ll clear out the civilians while you deal with the threat.
No? And you’re past the 30-day window? Well, buddy, there’s a warrant out for your arrest. Sure, some cops might let you slide because you help take down the bad guys and go out of your way to avoid hurting bystanders, but some are by the book and will take you down just because the law says so. Sure, if you just saved a million lives the judge will probably just give you a slap on the wrist fine and order you to register, but that’s not the point, is it?
You're still looking at this registration thing as a one time permanently irreversible thing. It can't possibly be anything of the kind.
For instance let's say you have a character get registered today. Fine and dandy. Now let's say you take that character and do nothing but evil vile things over and over again. Do you seriously think the cops are going to continue to treat you "nicely" just because you're supposedly registered? Of course not.
Conversely let's say you start life as a evil unregistered villain. Then let's say for whatever reason you had a change of heart and start doing nothing but good deeds for many years. Do you think the cops are going to treat you that badly if you have a few spots on your record but otherwise have been doing good things for a very long time? Again of course not.
Stop thinking that the "act of registration" is some kind of permanent "hero or villain" selection point that can never be undone. Sure it might have short term ramifications that will help to kick you off in one direction or another but it can't possibly be a permanent one-way choice.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I would really love to see some quality writing with lots of shades of gray and characters with believable and relatable motivations that don't fit a classic black and white moral code. I am pretty hopeful for this since the devs said they planned on four main story paths, two being the classic moustache twirling villain and caped crusader, with the other two being the much more down to earth good guy and bad guy.
I hope to see some hard decision making in those second set of stories. The best villains are relatable and have heroic or tragic qualities. The best heroes have human elements, weaknesses, and desires.
Of course I'm still going to love the more cookie cutter NEVER FEAR CITIZENS I AM HERE TO SAVE THE DAY WITH PERFECT HAIR AND SHINY TEETH type stuff.
The Incredibles is a decent example of both to some degree. The main "perfect hero" has a few moments that get really dark. They don't really push it since it is a Disney movie and everything turns out ok in the end, but it is there. The main villain starts out desperately idolizing the "perfect hero" and having that dream crushed, forever changing him. Even his villainous plan that involved the murder of dozens of heroes and untold damage and mayhem ultimately was going to lead to a new age of prosperity, equality, and technological revolution, at least in his mind.
I think you have a spot of tunnel vision here. I’m not saying it’s a permanent thing. Nothing is so black and white in RL, and from what I’ve read so far, the devs are trying to avoid black and white pigeonholes like that. Except once you’re registered, the only way around that is a change of costumed identity. But if you’re not registered, even if you do only good deeds, there will always be that *one* cop that’s either strictly by-the-book or else just plain hates capes (but can’t do anything about the ones that are registered because he/she isn’t a bad cop, just prejudiced, and so limits themselves to grumbling and complaining loudly regarding the ones that are registered). Decisions should have consequences, and that means *all* decisions, *including* whether or not to register. If it’s nothing more than a numbers/alignment shift, then why even have it in the game at all?
[youtube]jivFpDw4erk[/youtube]
Thank you for posting Dr. Horrible, it is a perfect example :)
"The status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it."
regarding the "registered within 30 days" aspect of this- we're assuming that not-registering is criminal (thus, involving the police) but it could be purely regulatory.
It isn't directly mentioned (that I saw) but let's assume that the broad legal protections to registered powers extends to financial liability.
I use my unregistered power in public. It causes some damage, but saves the day. If my power remains unregistered after 30 days from that incident, I can't claim the protections granted by registering. I could be held accountable for the damage I caused.
The "first use for an emergency purpose" phrase would seem to imply that if you didn't register within that time, you were forever screwed, but that's unlikely the case. More likely, you'd remain accountable for any action taken with that power up to the point you do register.
And I believe you don't have a full understanding of what a [b]variable/shiftable[/b] alignment/reputation system represents. Everything a character does is RELATIVE. Do nothing but good things and your alignment/reputation will reflect that just as it will if you do only "grey" things or strictly "villainous" things.
Yes that's EXACTLY what you're implying here. You are implying that the "the act of registration" will have permanently lasting effects on a character regardless of which way they choose.
The rest of this shows that you still think that single choice of registration will carry a PERMANENT effect on a character. Again that can't possibly be the case.
Let me try my hypothetical one more time. Let's say the only thing "registration" does is give you a one time shift on you law/chaos alignment axis. As long as you do [b]nothing else[/b] to change your alignment you will enjoy the "benefits of registration" (which likely involve boosting your reputation with local law enforcement). Now as soon as you start doing anything else that might either raise or lower your law/chaos alignment axis value your "benefits of registration" [b]ARE[/b] going to change relative to that. The mere fact that you registered at all is totally unimportant at this point. If you manage to raise your lawful value even higher then theoretically you'll start getting even MORE benefits from the cops than even the "basic one-time registration" provided. On the other hand if you start sliding towards chaos your "registration" is going to count for less and less until it's literally not worth the paper it's printed on.
Do you understand the overall RELATIVE nature of this now?
It would have as much consequence as any other alignment shift opportunity. It would be there to help kick you off in one direction or the other so that you're not just sitting at "pure neutral" from the very beginning. It's not meant to be a "permanent" sorting hat thing like in Harry Potter.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
TBH, what I’m getting from this is that you believe that characters should be able to weasel out of any and all consequences for their actions just by doing something different for a while. Really, whether registration has any actual lasting consequences is the only point we’re disagreeing on, when I’m pretty sure it was already stated elsewhere that it will determine whether you start off on a hero path or villain path in the bank robbery tutorial.
Yes, it *could* be purely regulatory, but the wording implies there are, at a minimum, fines/penalties levied for not registering.
Registering the car you just bought with the DMV may be purely regulatory, but if you don’t do so within the time limit written in the law, there are fines added on to the cost of registering it. And if you get caught driving it once the time limit has passed and it’s still unregistered, the penalties increase. (Specifics vary by state, but at some point for many if not most states it goes into mandatory jail time.)
This turns out not to be the case. It's a data point towards your position on the lawful/unlawful axis. What decides the hero/villain storyline (at the start, at least) is whether you were there to stop the robbery or to commit it.
Maybe we'll even have an option for "just a bystander", though that seems boring to me.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
It's funny that you're trying to cast this as some kind of hyperbolic "weaseling out of any and all consequences for character actions" when we already have an example of an "alignment system" from CoH that allowed any character to travel all the way from being a hero to vigilante to villain to rogue and back to hero again without being permanently stuck to any one of those choices.
This notion that there should be anything in the life of a character in CoT that must be a one-time permanent choice that has permanent ramifications is completely antithetical to the free-choice premise of this game. Remember CoH initially tried to do something similar with forcing people to chose an Origin type for their characters and not only did the Devs of CoH publicly claim that they regretted forcing that kind of permanent unchangeable choice on people but the CoT Devs have learned from than lesson by not even having Origins as a thing in CoT.
Again I will grant you that the act of registration should have a consequence in as much as it will likely serve as a way to START a path of gameplay and as a kickoff towards one alignment direction or the other. But the point I'm making is that like everything else in CoT the registration choice will not have PERMANENT ramifications and will be "undoable" if the player so chooses.
Now obviously if you initially chose to register and then want to "go evil" it will likely take some effort to "undo" the overall net effect of the registration (by requiring further alignment shifts in the negative direction) But just because reversing alignment shifts might be hard or time consuming they will ABSOLUTELY be possible under this system.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
As for the "lasting consequences", I can see it going either way. Perhaps some options may be open to people who have registered, and others to those who have not, that lead through slightly different paths to the same missions. Maybe it will result in slightly different dialogue. Or it may be just a data point.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I'd agree that in the "immediate short term" there ought to be consequences for that registration choice. I'm simply saying that over the long term a player's continuing choices about alignment shifts should allow them to ultimately offset whatever the initial consequences of that was if desired. If a person started off registered but then seriously wanted to "go evil" they should be able to do what it takes to make it as if they had never registered in the first place.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
This is more along the along the lines of what I was thinking.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Again this should be the case ASSUMING you do nothing to change your current alignment/reputation values. Once you start sliding one way or the other all bets are off.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think it would be nice if registration really does become a binary tag. If for no other reason than to result in some unique dialogue options like those mentioned above.
Then we could register at any time while playing the game, giving us the same +4 lawful alignment hit. It would also mean that any time we re-spec'd we would have to acknowledge that this voids our existing registration and we suffer the -4 hit to our lawful alignment score. (which, of course we could instantly make up by going back to city hall to re-register)
I've always been an advocate of making decisions matter. And something simple like this would really add to the feeling that Titan City is a living character in our story.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The lore certainly implies that there would be a significant difference in how supers are treated, especially by LEO's, if they are registered compared to not even when they are otherwise equally good so why shouldn't that be represented in the game as well. I don't think that just a few points of alignment shift on the lawful/unlawful axis would be a good enough representation.
Personally I think that dialog options would be a better way to represent this. As for undoing a registration I was thinking of a few possible way to represent that. 1) Designating costume slots to be alternative personas, no name change since you can potentially have several. 2) Story arc to fake you death or similar to later come back as a completely different person, includes name change. 3) Paid name change.
Nothing in this stops you from registering and then going full evil. Of course you'll loose all benefits from being registered but going evil doesn't "unregister" you (as you imply it will do).
Perhaps if unregistered you can never get above a certain amount of faction rep with Law enforcement?
Likewise being registered won't let you get in all the way with criminal organizations.
Then this would likely be something you could change, perhaps a mission that has you able to sneak into where the registry database is and remove yourself from it. Conversely to be registered maybe there'd be a mission where you help out law enforcement and get the option to register at the end.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Well if they want to make "being registered" a fundamental binary choice but [b]ALSO[/b] allow for some means (via respec?) to let you have a "do over" for that otherwise permanent choice then maybe that would be a functional compromise. That's seems a bit convoluted to me, but I suppose it would be better than the "permanent no-way-out" alternative.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I suppose this will be determined by how "being registered" is actually represented in the game. If it's just a one-time alignment shift then there may be no need for an independent "flag" that's set to indicate the current state of registration.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Something like this might be fine. Maybe instead of having "the hard reputation limits" maybe make it just extremely difficult to get to one of the reputation maximums while you don't have the corresponding "registration" to match.
So to use your examples if unregistered you can get to a certain amount of faction rep with Law enforcement normally but to get to the very top you'd need to work like twice as hard for the "last mile" so to speak. Same for the reverse scenario.
Things like this should never be made to be impossible but there's no reason why these "special cases" can't be very hard to achieve.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Finally someone chimed in who could articulate what I couldn’t find the words for. This is more what I meant when I was saying there should be more lasting consequences than just “a few alignment points in this/that direction”.
Plus dialogue changes and such. Toss in my example of the occasional cop who’ll hassle an unregistered hero (and relevant logical variations of the example), whether because ‘the law says so’ or personal prejudice, and now we’re right on the money of what I was trying to suggest.
(Where did that phrase originate, anyway? “Right on the money”...)
Thanks for clearing that tidbit up...although, technically, you *could* just happen to be at the bank to make a deposit or cash a check (just a bystander option), and then choose to either help the robbers or try to stop them...still sound boring to you? ;)
What I’d like to see is something like, you’re at the bank, someone tries to rob it. You try to stop them, but you’re such a bumbling fool (yeah, I’m looking at you, Booster Gold :D ) that in the end you wind up helping the robbers get away and everyone *thinks* you’re a villain (or vice versa - you try to help the robbers and end up with them all arrested and everyone thinks you’re a hero) and then you have to bumble your way through clearing up the misunderstanding. :D
For what it's worth I never once implied that alignment shifts have to be (or would be) easy in this game, especially ones that involve diametric swings from one alignment extreme around to the other.
But that WILL be the mechanic used in order to change how people/factions react to you more so than one-time binary choices that become unchangeable in the game. Yes for the initial "alignment kick off" this game might very well give you a big shift depending on if you choose to register or not. But once that decision is made it will not be permanent even if it takes hundreds of hours of play time to shift an alignment orientation back in the other direction.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
There you go. city has it's law. The Registration is country based. We don't register for martial arts in the US as a country :p
Look, Guam is tiny, it has a population barely over 165,000 for the entire island. There are over 150 cities in the US with a larger population. The fact that they have such a law is a weird, quirky anomaly, and a piece of odd trivia. It does mean that it’s not outlandish to suggest that a municipality might require citizens to register if they possess abilities that could present a danger to the public if misused. There’s a real-life precedent, even if it’s a wacky fringe case. But that’s all it means.
Could you extrapolate that to a national registry if instead of being “real good at kicking and punching” you’re now summoning tornadoes and earthquakes, turning invisible, firing personal rocket launchers, controlling minds...? Doesn’t seem like a stretch to me.
The CoT one is national. That's why it doesn't make sense at all.
Better register that super power of super intelligence or you're a criminal! Super reflexes! You took down a bad guy and didn't register it, you're in trouble!
Then one could go with, if one doesn't have to register their super intelligence super power, why should someone else need to register their fire blast, especially if they're born with the ability. Now forced to register for how you were born?
Actually, no. It is city. take another look at the [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/812507]link[/url].
Here's a quote from it:
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I think it’s less about the abilities themselves and more about “has it been used in a location or way that shows that it could potentially be dangerous to people or cause property damage?” and “have you used or do you intend to use your abilities/training to stop/commit crimes?”
Super intelligence by itself? Nah. Super intelligence applied to creating potentially dangerous gadgets for personal or possibly criminal use? Yep. (With the possible exception of inventing new toys specifically for the purpose of selling them to the military or law enforcement)
Super reflexes? And all they do is let you jump out of the way of a speeding car before you get hit? You’re unlikely to be able to use that in a way that hurts someone so, nah (unless said someone is a drunk driver or deliberately trying to run you over, in which case property damage or any injuries are on them, not you).
New York v. Tygron (1970)
United States v. Spess (1970)
California v. Prototype 8-A-1 (1979)
So all that goes to national. Not just Titan City.
Then there's this...
Any dangerous or intrusive power must be registered before public use for a nonemergency purpose or within thirty days of first use for an emergency purpose (including initial manifestation).
One can claim it was an emergency no matter what it is. They put on a mask. Say, well, it was an emergency. Crime was happening. So I put on the mask, and went to help in this emergency.
"But it was just a purse snatcher." "Bet the lady thought it was an emergency to get it back then and there."
Anything can be an emergency.
I guess you've never heard of the concept of legal precedent. Lawyers will often cite legal cases that have gone before, even in other jurisdictions, as a means to justify the wording of their own laws. Remember that the law of the land is the United States Constitution and no law enacted by any state can infringe upon the rights stated therein, no matter how crazy or nitpicking it may be. So municipalities will want to make sure that they've studied similar cases in other places to make sure the laws they enact have already been vetted through some (similar) court cases.
That then puts the onus on the Plaintiff of a complaint to show that their case is different and how.
That's why precedent cases are nearly always cited in things like this.
And that's why, if someone in Detroit wanted to make a law requiring martial artists to register their body parts as weapons, they could actually cite Guam's law as an unchallenged legal precedent under the US Constitution, even though it is not a national law.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
This registry is like being licensed to be a bodyguard, private detective, private military contractor, doctor, nurse, rural sheriff, teacher, daycare provider, pilot, taxi driver and so on. It's about being licensed to engage in a restricted activity. In this case characters sign up if they wish to fight crime as a more involved neighborhood watch program. Just like you don't need a medical license unless you want to practice medicine even if you took 8 years of schooling and completed your residency, there isn't a requirement to sign up and no legal action can be taken against characters who choose not to unless they go out crime fighting.
If you want a real world equivalency, this is just a large scale and long term law enforcement deputizing. Because it is illegal to use the military to enforce ordinary laws due to the Posse Comitatus act (Martial Law is seperate as it suspends ordinary law) the world of CoT decided that instead of either repeatedly/indefinitely declaring Martial Law in response to the constant comic book level threats they face they instead passed a law which allowed citizens who are equally powered to act as militia with police powers. This has happened before in America's history (minus the super powers) during the Revolutionary war, the Civil war and Indian wars to awful results. Many of these laws still can be enacted today however unlikely.
The martial arts in CoT are not just reality based Kung Fus or Karates, they will include ones where a master of the art can light their hands on fire, kick over tanks or other fantastical things just through their intense Kung Fury training (aesthetic decoupling). It's not Martial artists like Steven Segal who are badass as long as the group of bad guys come at him one at a time but guys who trained so hard they can now move faster than the eye can see, leap hundreds of feet, focus chi to throw fireballs, know how to do the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique or any other crazy thing video games, movies and myth have attributed to martial arts skill in the past.
Martial arts in CoT is as much a super power as super strength is and it makes sense that this registry recognizes that.
So, registration becomes a legal precedent for Social consequences and not something that changes the nature of the Character. Registration does not make the character more 'lawful' but makes the Law more supportive of the character.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Martial arts in real life: Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, etc
Martial arts in CoT: kamehameha, ha dou ken, mouko takabisha, kachu tenshin amiguriken, Hiryu shoten ha, etc.
:)
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