An actual attorney weighs in on the previous video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpgT_EdtAW0

He says he has good argument other than it is inappropriate to call something "fraud" until you establish intent.

@Radiac - Ross Scott already covered the issue of the EULA. Those don't overcome existing consumer protection law. The problem here is the [i]perpetual[/i] license that the goods in the form of a software client is purchased with. Collecting a fee to refund the user if the product ceases to be functional due to the actions of the seller or its agents up until a certain date, no matter now nominal, doesn't solve the issue the word "perpetual" there - it literally means "forever". This problem currently exists because the software companies simply never considered any end-of-life plans for their products. In a normal business plan end-of-life is an expected element to be considered but the software industry as it stands has generally dropped the ball on this issue. Mr. Scott is correct that the two viable solutions are either a product refund or a mechanism by which the purchaser can "repair" their goods. This may be as simple as letting a third party take over providing the service. I know the creators of the 4th Coming game do this. They license private servers for a fee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_4th_Coming
In this model the clients are freely given out; the server is what is being paid for. Of course a given server might sell items to their clients and then those become "goods".
This game has been running 20 years on some pretty primitive graphics but it's still a fun game (think of Stardew Valley). I've actually played it not to long ago and I was an avid player when Windows XP was still the latest Windows OS.

I'm coming in late to this...is there a link to the servers?

I will back Avel up on this one, one hundred percent. Everyone knows why, right? We exist to create a game that NCSoft can't shut down. Discussion is fine, but as soon as it crosses to potentially illegal content, we have to take it out.

Yep, that's fair enough.

avelworldcreator wrote:

I'll have to draw the line here. Until shown otherwise those servers are illegal and this forum cannot be used to link to illegal content. Do NOT post those links. They will be deleted. They are not acceptable at this time.

warcabbit wrote:

I will back Avel up on this one, one hundred percent. Everyone knows why, right? We exist to create a game that NCSoft can't shut down. Discussion is fine, but as soon as it crosses to potentially illegal content, we have to take it out.

I would absolutely agree that until we know what NCsoft intends to do about the recent CoH server situation, assuming they even intend to do anything at all, it's prudent for there to be no overt "cheerleading" for those servers on this website.

That being said it's actually a fairly trivial matter for an interested person to google for such information on their own so there's no effective reason why that information needs to exist here in the first place.

Guys.....

Planet10 wrote:

I too am excited for both. I believe CoT will have many new experiences that I will look forward to playing. Similarly, I am contemplating playing this new incarnation of CoX because there are all of these new experiences that I missed out on (I stopped playing in 2006).

I expect that potentially playing CoX will satiate the nostalgia and reveal the short comings that my brain has shoved into a blind spot. But then I have to wrestle with how these rogue server efforts are warping the play experience from what people saw on live (there are a couple reports about how Homecomming has changed a couple coefficients). Would I be playing a faithful recreation or someone else's vision and at what point would that impact my experience (and would I notice)?

I have no idea how the current "rogue servers" have potentially changed how the game might play today versus the "official" 2012 baseline. But I do know for a fact that the game changed/improved a huge amount between 2006 and 2012. If you do give it a try I would doubt it'd seem like the same game you remember given how much content was added/modified during that period.

TheInternetJanitor wrote:

CoT was always supposed to be basically CoX with many modern improvements that could only be done with a new design from the ground up. It may force CoT to a higher standard than it could get away with in a vacuum, but CoT was never going to be in a vacuum anyway. There are many other games and even other CoX successor projects.

That's a really good point, and what I am hoping for with CoT. If CoT lives up to my expectations, I am sure I will be much happier in a new home.

However, I am a bit concerned that a now-playable old game might make it so players don't give CoT a try to find out whether they actually prefer the more modern version.

rookslide wrote:

Cinnder wrote:

TheInternetJanitor wrote:

CoT was always supposed to be basically CoX with many modern improvements that could only be done with a new design from the ground up. It may force CoT to a higher standard than it could get away with in a vacuum, but CoT was never going to be in a vacuum anyway. There are many other games and even other CoX successor projects.

That's a really good point, and what I am hoping for with CoT. If CoT lives up to my expectations, I am sure I will be much happier in a new home.

However, I am a bit concerned that a now-playable old game might make it so players don't give CoT a try to find out whether they actually prefer the more modern version.

I don't think this is gonna be a problem at all. The Devs have already shown enough snippets of a much more flexible and customizable character creator than COH ever did. Sure people may go and play COH on rogue servers but I think for many it will be a stop-gap until COT releases. Sure we all miss COH but we are also all thirsty for something more sophisticated and new. At least, this is how I feel about it.

Besides COT isn't releasing any time soon. So people will have time to get a good hit off the old game, savor it, remember the good and the bad before COT is available to try. I don't think many will just not try COT. Improved graphics, intriguing mechanics, a new city to explore, that's a lot of good stuff to ignore and decide to just not even bother trying it out.

I agree--and also that will be OUR job to go in and create buzz once CoT substantially launches :D!

Plus, going back and playing reminded me that CoH was really starting to get good right when they shut it down. They were starting to understand what directions to develop, and to implement new gameplay and lore that was getting better and better. But the game was always difficult to develop and now further development is going to be severely limited.

If CoT can pick up where they left off and move it forward with modern graphics, I think people will respond to that if it's done well.

I'm having second thoughts about SCORE.

The servers have been up less than a month, and already the mods have moved around a bunch of exploration badges and cratered the tips/alignment system.

If it ceases to be the same game, then it's not really back, now is it?

You can never really go home. There is only the future...and it looks like the future is CoT.

CallmeBlue wrote:

I'm having second thoughts about SCORE.

The servers have been up less than a month, and already the mods have moved around a bunch of exploration badges and cratered the tips/alignment system.

If it ceases to be the same game, then it's not really back, now is it?

You can never really go home. There is only the future...and it looks like the future is CoT.

I don't know of these moved exploration badges, I do know the tip/alignment system may not be needed by many, now that they can use the Null the Gull (or whatever) to change alignments. Doesn't bother me.

Game still feels like the old game, only with more added on.

/Ninjitsu Scrappers? YES PLEASE! Feels a lot like /Willpower, except get a few added perks, while being a bit more active on those defenses. Self Heal like the /WP Stalker version, but it comes with a +END power that's like a heal for END, instead of the passive Stamina /WP gets.

Not that I won't play CoT, but seeing as how CoT isn't out yet, it's fun to have a game I love to play again :)

Cinnder wrote:

CallmeBlue wrote:

I'm having second thoughts about SCORE.

The servers have been up less than a month, and already the mods have moved around a bunch of exploration badges and cratered the tips/alignment system.

If it ceases to be the same game, then it's not really back, now is it?

You can never really go home. There is only the future...and it looks like the future is CoT.

Yeah, I'm with you. I guess that's the danger: a rogue server can be taken in rogue directions instead of just preserving the old game we loved. Of course, I wasn't a fan of every change the devs made when the official game was live, but I think the current setup puts us in more danger of its happening.

Let's just hope and pray Titan Network can set something up.

Brutum wrote:

When are we gonna get an update on issue 0? Been over a month since we've had an update. Yes, I know people have been taking a break.

That is the million dollar question no one can answer.

Brand X wrote:

CallmeBlue wrote:

I'm having second thoughts about SCORE.

The servers have been up less than a month, and already the mods have moved around a bunch of exploration badges and cratered the tips/alignment system.

If it ceases to be the same game, then it's not really back, now is it?

You can never really go home. There is only the future...and it looks like the future is CoT.

I don't know of these moved exploration badges, I do know the tip/alignment system may not be needed by many, now that they can use the Null the Gull (or whatever) to change alignments. Doesn't bother me.

Game still feels like the old game, only with more added on.

/Ninjitsu Scrappers? YES PLEASE! Feels a lot like /Willpower, except get a few added perks, while being a bit more active on those defenses. Self Heal like the /WP Stalker version, but it comes with a +END power that's like a heal for END, instead of the passive Stamina /WP gets.

Not that I won't play CoT, but seeing as how CoT isn't out yet, it's fun to have a game I love to play again :)

The long-term problem is that the SCORE mods have declared war on any playstyle that they don't personally favor.

First they came for the AE farmers, and nobody said anything. But what goes around, comes around, and there's no telling what part of the game the Committee of Public Safety will decide to chop next.

Dark Cleric wrote:

warlocc wrote:

Brutum wrote:

When are we gonna get an update on issue 0? Been over a month since we've had an update. Yes, I know people have been taking a break.

... Soon.

Spoiler alert, we've actually got an update coming that rounds up a lot of information all in one place, and I'm pushing internally for more similar updates.

The promise the devs made earlier this year about releasing more valuable info, they're following through with.

Personally I think the next few updates are going to be really good.

Sorry, but i disagree that there has been better communication and/or more valuable info released. Its been 5 months since the issue 0 fall release date, 7 or 8 months since the 3-month delay, and there has been no word on where it is at. And still, all that can be said is soon. It's not reassuring. Devs have been saying soon for years...so that word means nothing and gives us nothing.

Just like saying the PR team would take 2 weeks off after all those mogul updates and here we are 4 weeks later and nothing. It wouldn't be that bad if they just let us know there wouldn't be one.

Did they actually say two weeks?

Well a two week break off a bi-weekly update schedule....my math gives 4 weeks. But if you cash in on the weekly updates for April, they get 6 weeks off ;)

DesViper wrote:

Well a two week break off a bi-weekly update schedule....my math gives 4 weeks. But if you cash in on the weekly updates for April, they get 6 weeks off ;)

2 weeks off for holidays, 1 week for the off week, the next week (this week), would have been the update. Look, this just comes back to communication. They don't do it well. If they know they are going to go 4+ weeks off with no updates then they should tell us that on that nice announcement banner they dont use. Seriously, it's ridiculous. They know everyone is waiting on ANY news about Issue #0, or really anything. What is so difficult about letting us know they aren't going to be posting updates so we aren't sitting on the edge of our seats for weeks waiting for one, not knowing if its going to drop or not. I literally would not care AT ALL if they said "hey we aren't going to drop any updates for 6 weeks for x reason". I wouldn't be waiting and checking the site every so often to see if it dropped. I probably wouldn't even log in to the website. I am A-OKAY with that.

I wouldn't even have a problem if they did use that excuse. "hey, we just gave you 4 updates in a row so we are taking 2 months off of updates". at least we'd know not to expect anything. but they didn't say that...they said 2 weeks.

I really don't see how people are saying their communication has gotten better since the Fall 2018 debacle...it hasn't. All i've seen is conflicting information from various devs and no updates on something they've been saying would release every year. It blows my mind that we are 5 months after and still NOTHING has been said about it. At the beginning of the year MWMsays they are back to the point they were at before the server mess, now they are saying they are making good progress to get back to that point. Maybe they've had more server issues setting them back again...we don't know because they don't communicate. It's frustrating because it's such an easy fix. It's a few words on the banner.

Dark Cleric wrote:

All i've seen is conflicting information from various devs and no updates on something they've been saying would release every year. It blows my mind that we are 5 months after and still NOTHING has been said about it.

I agree. They were adamant that they were gonna get issue 0 out at the end of 2018, but half a year later they 'still' can't deliver on it. It's really starting to tick me off.

Brutum wrote:

Dark Cleric wrote:

All i've seen is conflicting information from various devs and no updates on something they've been saying would release every year. It blows my mind that we are 5 months after and still NOTHING has been said about it.

I agree. They were adamant that they were gonna get issue 0 out at the end of 2018, but half a year later they 'still' can't deliver on it. It's really starting to tick me off.

I can definitely sympathize with you. However, my issue is not with how long the game is taking, it's only with the devs communication. I refuse to believe that there is even a single good reason why they can't use their announcement banner for actual announcements like letting us know if there is going to be an update or not. There is absolutely no reason why they can't type 5 words up there for us. Again, I don't give a damn if there isn't going to be one if they would just let us know so we weren't expecting one based on their own advertised schedule of every other week. If their PR team, who I assume controls that banner, doesn't know if there is an update by the week when there is supposed to be one...something is very wrong.

If I was in the fold I'd drop a breadcrumb. All I can say is what Warlocc said: there'll be some neato stuff soon.

Dark Cleric wrote:

DesViper wrote:

If I was in the fold I'd drop a breadcrumb. All I can say is what Warlocc said: there'll be some neato stuff soon.

Haven't heard that one before. Shall we go explore past updates and find the first time they said issue #0 would be dropping 'soon'? That word means nothing coming from a dev. I apologize for coming off as snide but that word has seriously been bastardized, not just by MWM but literally every development team ever.

Difference is, I wasn't on the team before. Getting relevant info into the right places has been a big thing for me.
Took a little time because I was the new guy, but we're getting on track now.

I know it's starting to sound like a bad excuse, but the volunteer nature of this project really is a factor. Some stuff that would frustrate me I have to let slide because of that.
These are busy people with jobs and lives, doing this in what little free time they have. It's certainly been a learning experience for me, getting "on the inside".

(NAME DELETED BY ADMIN). Apparently I hadn't read that part of the update when that was said. I had been informed several times in the past that we are on a subscription model until we are sustainable enough to be able to offer F2P. I also thought that our Kickstarter backers had a different model from the start as one of the benefits of being one of the original backers. But the official update is the official update and all I can do is shrug and go on. I'm not a formal member of the business department and had not been a part of that decision when it was made. I [i]was[/i] a member of the board of directors at the time though and I'm still a company founder and usually try to stay current with the various departments and teams - but I still miss things. But for decisions about the product release, timing, and project integration I'm usually the guy in charge. As for the FB and other posts sometimes the PR team doesn't quite grasp what the tech team members are saying. The server that went offline had nothing to do with logins and player interactions but storing project assets and files - our repository server. The login server is still under construction as it deals with security issues. I think you understand why we are taking great care with that one given that it touches on people's financial data. The repository server crashed because of a motherboard flaw. We had to replace the board (in fact I'm the one who did that on my front porch - I made a video! :p ) And a few days after I suffered a break in at my house and most of my computer equipment - including the server - was stolen. The server was recovered but not my tower. I was working on a development tool at the time that depended on my specific network connection to that server and it was gone. It was handling module construction, asset conversion, and project integration. I still have the source code but the conversion over to our new network would take too much time to do so I've been doing all of the work it was intended to handle by hand. What was going to take a few hours at a time is now taking days - or even a week or two. And I'm doing this on a i5 laptop from 2013 with 8GB RAM and a 2TB older-style HDD. It took me several hours to move the integrated game project - one section of the whole project - from one part of the drive to another tonight. That whole section alone is 50GB - and growing.

Redlynne wrote:

ivanhedgehog wrote:

CallmeBlue wrote:

The long-term problem is that the SCORE mods have declared war on any playstyle that they don't personally favor.

The reason for the AE nerf was the large ambush missions hammered their mapservers. They were taking down the servers over and over. They were quite clear with that.

I don't know about anyone else, but "playstyles" that are demonstrably proven to be reliable SERVER CRASHERS tend to be frowned upon by Developers and Network People alike.
Just sayin' ...

Like I said, there weren't too many complaints, but instead a fair amount of schadenfreude, over the AE farmers.

But why then move badge locations around? Why basically destroy the alignment system rewards? Who gets to decide what changes are effected, and for what reasons?

So far, SCORE's attitude is, "We're the saviors of CoH, and if you don't like our approach, then GTFO."

Not a positive attitude, is it?

I don't really give a shit because it still beats any other game and especially MMO going on right now for me. And lord knows it will probably be another 5 years until something ever releases from here.

Exaggerating out of frustration.

Yeah, I know you didn't. I wasn't coming at ya or anything.

Soulwind wrote:

Not that it really matters, but I25 is the modded version of the game files changed by the SCORE team. Most of those changes are things that needed to be done for a private server to function. Things like unlocking all the stuff that used to be part of the cash shop or stuck behind the veteran rewards tree. Others were convienance changes, like making bases free and removing prestige. Some changes are odd and make no real sense, but I haven't found anything critical with them yet.

There is also a team working on making the actual I24 version that was on the test servers functional without any of the "I25" modifications. That is still in progress as far as I know.

I was aware that some of the things SCORE -needed- to do to get the game working again was part of what they called "Issue 25". I suppose I'm simply questioning the things things that they -chose- to change on their own that weren't strictly necessary to change.

Also it will be interesting to see if/when they can ever get "official Issue 24" servers going. In the long run I see no reason why there couldn't be both "vanilla/official" Issue 24 servers along side any "modded" servers to give players a choice of which they'd rather play on.

Brutum wrote:

I don't really give a shit because it still beats any other game and especially MMO going on right now for me. And lord knows it will probably be another 5 years until something ever releases from here.

I'd put money on Issue 2 before Holiday 2020 ;)

Dark Cleric wrote:

DesViper wrote:

Brutum wrote:

I don't really give a shit because it still beats any other game and especially MMO going on right now for me. And lord knows it will probably be another 5 years until something ever releases from here.

I'd put money on Issue 2 before Holiday 2020 ;)

Lol

C'mon, how much money do you wanna put on it? No joke ;)

Yeah that's why it's a bet :p Issue 1 by late 2020 is obvious, even if you don't have clearance ;p

Well if we get Issue 2 by Holiday 2020 I'm kicking down your DMs :p

In the meantime, save up ;)

I am shocked - Shocked! - to learn that there is gambling going on in this establishment!

Your winnings, sir.

Ah, thank you.

Hope wrote:

Foradain wrote:

I am shocked - Shocked! - to learn that there is gambling going on in this establishment!

Your winnings, sir.

Ah, thank you.

😃

[youtube=500x300]SjbPi00k_ME[/youtube]

Brutum wrote:

I don't really give a [bleep] because it still beats any other game and especially MMO going on right now for me.

QFT.

Reading is Fundamental!