Stealth Archetype?

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Flow-
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Stealth Archetype?

I've /briefly/ looked through a few threads and i'm a little confused as to how the planned archetypes work. From what i hear there will be an Archetype for each playstyle (Eg: melee, ranged, control ,pets, etc.) but i found nothing referencing stealth. Of course CoT is in Pre-Pre-Pre alpha so i know nothing is absolute, but i'm a little curious if a stalker type character has been considered. Back in CoH every character i made had either hide or some other stealth ability. Or will stealth be an option within each of the planned classes? A stealth ranger, or a stealth operator, etc.?

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The plan is that melee

The plan is that melee classes can select some kind of stealth as a special option. Don't know whether it will be available for other classes, too.

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I'd like for invisibility to

I'd like for invisibility to be an option for any character, perhaps in the form of a pool power, as CoH had.

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I would assume, which carries

I would assume, which carries with it the normal dangers, that what's being offered under Stalwart is Stalker type stealth attacks, more specifically that stealth provides added bonuses to attack.

That being said, there will likely have to be the Theme stealth powers as well as stealth from whatever incarnation the Power Pool powers take.

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I'm happy as long as a

I'm happy as long as a stealth oriented character doesn't have his invisibility broken at 20 meters (about 23 yards) and can alpha strike the living crap out of one unlucky dude XD

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Yeah, our devs have pretty

Yeah, our devs have pretty much ruled out an Assassin class (so far). Even in CoH, it was very problematic and constantly being tweaked to make it work.

Stealth is still in and presumably bonuses for stealth strikes. And maybe make that available to several character specifications. But balancing a whole AT around a one-shot? Not likely.

But... things could change.

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Ah alright, thanks!

Ah alright, thanks!

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Yeah, our devs have pretty much ruled out an Assassin class (so far). Even in CoH, it was very problematic and constantly being tweaked to make it work.
Stealth is still in and presumably bonuses for stealth strikes. And maybe make that available to several character specifications. But balancing a whole AT around a one-shot? Not likely.
But... things could change.

Ahh... I *SO* want some variation upon my Claws/Ninjutsu Stalker. Might've been my favorite character, particularly near the end with the 'set up and AS in combat' thing going. But could probably still do that without a huge Assassination Strike. Stealth-focussed Widows did pretty well in that regard.

**EDIT**
Let me add that while I agree that AT was often problematic, I do think they got it pretty close to well-balanced there near the end. However I'm sure there might be better, or at least more elegant, ways to implement such a character-type. We certainly don't need to slavishly duplicate what's come before.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Yeah, our devs have pretty much ruled out an Assassin class (so far).

:(

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Stealth is still in and presumably bonuses for stealth strikes. And maybe make that available to several character specifications. But balancing a whole AT around a one-shot? Not likely.

Thanks...,

- ...I found the idea of a Stalker AT to be rather...silly. Too much specialization under a single predefined purpose - hide and then attack from hiding, rinse, repeat - very two-dimensional. I -DO- like the idea of stealth strikes becoming an inherent part of stealth/invisibility powers. Someone wants to play an 'assassin'?...how about an Invisible Blaster using Sniper from a distance?...or a Stealthed Katana Scrapper using Golden Dragonfly against the unwary? That's assassination... ^_^

- Perhaps add into the Invisibility PP the ability to go into Stealth when in combat, much like the standard Stalker ability, for those who simply -MUST- be elusive...just provide a small variety of stealth effect during activation like 'flash' or 'smoke bomb' and you're set! :D

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Then fun comes in a hit and

Then fun comes in a hit and run. My first AV i actually killed with SO's solo (may have been an EB, i forget). He for sure outmatched me one on one. But The fact i could pop AS, placate, then thunderstrike, hold out until i can re placate to run and heal quickly (thank you regen) and jump back in, i took him down really effectively and got quite a bit of pride in my character after that. A stalker is a bit of a vulture, serves a very specific purpose. But the thing is stealth is a major element is a lot of games and it's one of my favorite playstyles. You can't hit and run with a blaster in an instanced office building. That's the beauty of the class, you were like a hitman out to do one thing and one thing only.

I can see the 2d-ness though. I'll probably be more than content as long as i can hit and run in some fashion instead of all guns blazing. :)

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Put Stealth on a Scrapper,

Put Stealth on a Scrapper, there you go. I agree that the stealthy character is a cool concept but yeah, not strong enough to carry a whole AT

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Put Stealth on a Scrapper, there you go. I agree that the stealthy character is a cool concept but yeah, not strong enough to carry a whole AT

That's what i was trying to say though. Stealth isn't enough, or at least in CoH it wasnt. The stalker was unique for three reasons:

- Total invisibility
- Placate
- Assassins strike

A stealth scrapper in the CoH sense was just a hard to see all guns blazing melee DPS, at times it would feel quite brutish. The enemy would still see you 30 feet out and running from them wouldn't cause you to lose aggro due to your stealth not having a 'hidden' feature.

What i am getting at is i agree the stalker was very tough to balance and was a really clunky AT. However the analyzing and targeting of specific NPC's to take out was a really fun thing to do. I totally agree that a stalker clone shouldn't be in CoT. By the same note though, what i am trying to express is stealth is one of the 4-5 major playstyles (depending on how you count it). There is the Caster at the back, the healer or support, the tank, the dps, and then the stalker. The guy who can survey the situation, mark any issues, act like a ninja and surprise his foes (perhaps a support type stalker, like a debuffer/corruptor?). I feel a stalker-type character should have some place in an MMO, but it would be a hard task to pull off effectively, but it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play. A scrapper with stealth is just a slightly harder to see DPS.

EDIT:
Sorry if i sound like i am coming off aggressively or overly-passionately. I am just trying to show that a Melee DPS and a Stealth DPS are not typically interchangable :)

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Flow- wrote:
Flow- wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
Put Stealth on a Scrapper, there you go. I agree that the stealthy character is a cool concept but yeah, not strong enough to carry a whole AT

That's what i was trying to say though. Stealth isn't enough, or at least in CoH it wasnt. The stalker was unique for three reasons:
- Total invisibility
- Placate
- Assassins strike
A stealth scrapper in the CoH sense was just a hard to see all guns blazing melee DPS, at times it would feel quite brutish. The enemy would still see you 30 feet out and running from them wouldn't cause you to lose aggro due to your stealth not having a 'hidden' feature.
What i am getting at is i agree the stalker was very tough to balance and was a really clunky AT. However the analyzing and targeting of specific NPC's to take out was a really fun thing to do. I totally agree that a stalker clone shouldn't be in CoT. By the same note though, what i am trying to express is stealth is one of the 4-5 major playstyles (depending on how you count it). There is the Caster at the back, the healer or support, the tank, the dps, and then the stalker. The guy who can survey the situation, mark any issues, act like a ninja and surprise his foes (perhaps a support type stalker, like a debuffer/corruptor?). I feel a stalker-type character should have some place in an MMO, but it would be a hard task to pull off effectively, but it would be a hell of a lot of fun to play. A scrapper with stealth is just a slightly harder to see DPS.
EDIT:
Sorry if i sound like i am coming off aggressively or overly-passionately. I am just trying to show that a Melee DPS and a Stealth DPS are not typically interchangable :)

It was already mentioned...,

- ...that there would be some sort of additional bonus applied when attacking from stealth...sort of a surrogate AS with any power used initially when attacking from Stealth...along with another power added to Stealth replicating the Placate power so an entire AT doesn't have to be reserved for such a singular purpose and, in essence, bring out more variety among the other AT's.

- Outside of the AS/Placate abilities...a Stalker really was nothing more than a Scrapper so provide those abilities and bonuses as part of the Stealth PP with bonuses scaling depending upon AT chosen...offensive AT's like Enforcers/Rangers receiving the most significant, Operators being next in line (...being sneaky Mastermind gits...), followed up by a token increase by those who have mitigating roles like Guardians, Commanders and Stalwarts.

- Just saying that only one AT type should have that ability is like looking at the entire line of Enforcers and saying only Gladiators should have that ability. Why not Bodyguards?...it would seem appropriate, especially if they had Dark Miasma. Most Bodyguards protect best by not being noticed, and if a Striker was unable to acquire such capabilities - I'd be surprised since they're practically all offense.

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Yeah good points :)

Yeah good points :)

I'm a little bad at getting to the point. But to be blunt, i pretty much typed all that to say i don't want an extremely bad watered down element of stealth that just makes bad guys slightly less observant :)

On your last point i totally agree. It'd be my dream in a super hero MMO to have some sort of actual functional stealth in a patron/pool powerset (aka available to all archetypes). I kind of implied otherwise, sorry about that. Anyways, it would really open up some flexibility to classes. Like having the equivalent of a bots mastermind acting like handsome jack off of borderlands. You never really see him but there is this endless onslaught of bots.

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Quote:
Update 12 wrote:

Each Classification is going to have a good selection of Masteries. Each Mastery alters how your powers work, allowing you to tweak them further toward a specific playstyle.. For instance: One Mastery may allow you to get stronger the longer you fight, while another will allow you to make your energy blasts super-accurate shots that do EXTRA critical damage. Yet another might enable you to steal health from people you punch and give it to everyone around you.

Like powers, Masteries become stronger as you progress through the game. Unlike powers, you can choose to have a single particularly strong Mastery, or instead opt for diversity by choosing to have more, weaker Masteries.

In addition to all of these, you will be allowed to choose a number of Minor Powers, allowing to round your character concept out and further customize it. By this point, your character can be truly unique.

I think they are smart to remove the Stalker as one of the archetypes they are trying to replicate. I had a lot of fun with them, but they were very specific. However, I think the above explains how stealth/invisibility will probably come into play in City of Titans.

A "Stealth Mastery" might be fun to have across all archetypes. If you choose it to be your "single particularly strong Mastery" you end up with something close to Stalker capabilities allowing you to hide easily and perform critical alpha strikes. If you choose "Stealth Mastery" among other mastery pools, you end up powers like the Stealth Pool in CoH.


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id like any stealth power

id like any stealth power/mastery to be able to achieve an effect similar to the coh blaster->devices>cloaking device, a toggle on/off invisibility with continuous "drain" rather than timed invisibility or one that gets "automatically" turned off if you do anything or forces you to move slowly. though don't object to it being less effective in certain situations for balance, (e.g moving fast, close up) or temporally disabled (e.g emp grenade).

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I still see stalkers as more

I still see stalkers as more than just scrappers with invisibility. The AS was a super-powered attack because you were more fragile than a "real" scrapper, and you had Placate to sort of make up for that as well. Taking a stalker into combat was, to borrow someone's description of a Regen scrapper (author's name sadly forgotten) like riding an off-road dirt bike through bumper-to-bumper traffic at high speeds - a real gas when it was all going well, but one mistake and you were road pizza. They were less and yet more, or at least "other than", scrappers. And some of us liked them that way.

I know that we can't replicate them 100% in the new coming game and I'm ok with that. But please don't tell me "you can slap invisibility on your build and it will be the same." We need to have some sort of mechanic for a "superior" level of invisibility that would power-up any given while-hidden attack to a super-duper double whammy at the very least...

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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

I still see stalkers as more than just scrappers with invisibility. The AS was a super-powered attack because you were more fragile than a "real" scrapper, and you had Placate to sort of make up for that as well. Taking a stalker into combat was, to borrow someone's description of a Regen scrapper (author's name sadly forgotten) like riding an off-road dirt bike through bumper-to-bumper traffic at high speeds - a real gas when it was all going well, but one mistake and you were road pizza. They were less and yet more, or at least "other than", scrappers. And some of us liked them that way.
I know that we can't replicate them 100% in the new coming game and I'm ok with that. But please don't tell me "you can slap invisibility on your build and it will be the same." We need to have some sort of mechanic for a "superior" level of invisibility that would power-up any given while-hidden attack to a super-duper double whammy at the very least...

Well said ^_^

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What I can say is that we

What I can say is that we plan on implementing various stealth mechanics into the game (subject to change, you know the deal...). This may range from anyone being able to sneak around, to true stealth-like abilities provided through powers and possible non-combat abilities.

We also have a specification planned called the Striker under the Enforcer Classification. Strikers will have secondary power sets designed to provide mitigation with a mix of manipulation (thus far planned to be controls and / or debuffs).

And while we plan for 1 mastery per classification at release, there is a possibility of providing multiple masteries for each Classification which can change yet supports the playstyle suited for the over-all classification, but will allow each specification within that class to play differently.

Take these three bits of info and make of that what you will, just be sure to add your bowl full of salt along with it.


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Stealth is a system wide

Stealth is a system wide mechanic.. I'm not mad if you take your time to find what fits in your other mechanics.

I say the same about many other mechanics that require the baseline mechanics work first (energy, healing, stealth, pets, and movement). Many of these systems are dependent on the base of the character creation system (stats? gear? inmates? etc)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Take these three bits of info and make of that what you will, just be sure to add your bowl full of salt along with it.

I intend to make a very salty hat, or a broach, or a pterodactyl...

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I think the Arachnos Night

I think the Arachnos Night Widow or Bane Soldier would probably be a better fit in CoT than the Stalker AT.

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If it's too much of a problem

If it's too much of a problem to make a stealth classification at launch, maybe it can be something that's added later on. Probably a classification that's defined by it's secondary powerset called stealth, and then the specifications could change the primary rather than the secondary. Maybe we can have one with a melee primary, or a ranged primary to make a sniper like character, hell if it's ever decided that assault can be a primary we could use that too. Just a thought.....

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Obviously enemies not being

Obviously enemies not being able to see (and thus attack) you is a huge benefit desirable for almost everybody. If it gives a damage bonus even more so.
When featuring a stalker-strength stealth in the game, the devs should from the start also consider these two points:

- How will zone PvP work if there can be a large group of invisible blasters around?
- What will be the big downside of stealth that makes it worthwhile to build a non-invisible character?

rah.

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What if "stealth" was a base

What if "stealth" was a base for a defense secondary powerset, available to any specification that has a defense secondary? Like enforcer/gladiator(stalker) and ranger/gunner(sniper).

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Blue Raptor wrote:
Blue Raptor wrote:

Obviously enemies not being able to see (and thus attack) you is a huge benefit desirable for almost everybody. If it gives a damage bonus even more so.
When featuring a stalker-strength stealth in the game, the devs should from the start also consider these two points:
- How will zone PvP work if there can be a large group of invisible blasters around?
- What will be the big downside of stealth that makes it worthwhile to build a non-invisible character?

Some of the reasons that I still feel a stealth-based class is needed - otherwise, stealth will either end up being so useful everyone will "have" to find room in their builds for it, or it will be weak enough that it'll only be marginally usefull, at best and people will most likely only include it for RP reasons.

Except for the fact I know that one was more popular than the other, a game without a stealth-class would be like making a game without a pet-control class. I liked both classes in the old game and will sorely miss one or the other should they not appear.

Look guys, I know they had their problems in the old game, but that's no reason to toss them aside instead of, you know, accept the challenge of doing them right this time.

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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

Look guys, I know they had their problems in the old game, but that's no reason to toss them aside instead of, you know, accept the challenge of doing them right this time.

Well I imagine there are way more important things to deal with at the moment. Just like the extra work that Masters require sidelined them to a later release, a stealth-based assassin class would require a lot more work to get right (there are a lot of considerations, both PvE and PVP that have to be taken into account), and thus probably should be shelved.

Now - maybe some day down the road the devs could re-visit the idea to see if they can make it work where CoH couldn't, but I'd prefer the devs concentrate on more attainable/concrete goals for the moment. Personally - I thought the Stalkers of CoH to be a rather odd duck - and if, like ZombieMan suggests there may be other considerations for a "stealthy melee-striking" character, they might not be necessary at all.

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Stalkers were essentially

Stalkers were essentially Spike Damage dealers in a game where Pressure Damage won the battle. Scrappers were Pressure Damage dealers with a limited potential for Spike Damage in the form of Build Up. Stalkers took that even further and created a Spike Damage Specialist class, with a secondary effect of being Stealthy.

One of the factors that I didn't particularly care for in how CoH handled Stealth is that it wound up being oversimplified. Basically "double stack" some kind of Stealth and nothing can see you, and Stalkers got this level of Stealth simply by virtue of using Hide (so they didn't need to "double up" on Stealth in order to remain undetected). Pretty much the only way to "fix" that sort of thing would have been to introduce Stealth Enhancements, other than the Unique IOs which added Stealth as a proc when slotted into Travel Powers (such as Sprint, Superspeed, Super Jump, Fly and Teleport).

*IF* City of Titans were to create a power in the spirit of Placate, I'd strongly recommend giving it both a Ranged *and* PBAoE component, so that it can be used against a target "across the room" while simultaneously Placating every hostile within Melee Radius. The Placate would do two things ... remove any of the Caster's persistent Debuffs from the affected Foes (so they don't instantly re-aggro for free), remove the Caster from the affected Foes' Threat List, and put the Caster back into "Hide" status (with all the bonuses that would come with doing that) while toggling on Hide (even if Hide was not yet fully recharged and available or was being suppressed). Essentially, Placate would "hide" you.

The proper way to deal with any kind of Assassin Strike or other sort of Snipe Attack is not to have a "dedicated attack power" which does that as its sole purpose, but rather to do something more like Build Up, where you apply a Self Buff that modifies whatever your next Attack Power is to turn it into a Spike Damage attack. Thus, while a Scrapper would have a "true" Build Up that offered a Damage Buff for a Duration, a Stalker by contrast would get a much bigger Damage Buff for a Single Attack at a cost of an Interrupt Duration added to that attack animation. If this Self Buff were invoked while in "Hide" status, the Damage Buff would be increased further, as would the Interrupt Duration (again).

You could even set this up such that if Build Up offered 10 seconds of Duration for 90 seconds of Recharge, that a Snipe or Assassin Strike buff power would offer a larger buff to only a single Single Target Attack with only 30 seconds of Recharge. Mix in Stealthy Alpha Striking via Hide and you've got the basic building blocks you'd need to do this. And as I've mentioned in another thread, if you make the Snipe or Assassin Strike something that "ignores" Tab Lock targeting and instead goes to wherever the "dead center" of your screen is aiming (requires UI reticle for aiming purposes invoked by power use) then you invoke a degree of "Player Must Control In Order To Hit Desired Target" that turns this kind of attack into its own sort of Mini-Game, which some will master, and some will not.


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I loved CoX's implementation

I loved CoX's implementation of it...various powersets had a stealth-like power, for whatever flavor reason was appropriate.

But we definitely need to have stealth and invisibility as a teritary power pool option for EVERYONE, rather than limiting it to only a few powersets or ATs.

The are innumerable references in comics to stealthy or plain invisible character...to whom the stealth mode is an adjunct to thier actual role.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Stalkers were essentially Spike Damage dealers in a game where Pressure Damage won the battle. Scrappers were Pressure Damage dealers with a limited potential for Spike Damage in the form of Build Up. Stalkers took that even further and created a Spike Damage Specialist class, with a secondary effect of being Stealthy.
One of the factors that I didn't particularly care for in how CoH handled Stealth is that it wound up being oversimplified. Basically "double stack" some kind of Stealth and nothing can see you, and Stalkers got this level of Stealth simply by virtue of using Hide (so they didn't need to "double up" on Stealth in order to remain undetected). Pretty much the only way to "fix" that sort of thing would have been to introduce Stealth Enhancements, other than the Unique IOs which added Stealth as a proc when slotted into Travel Powers (such as Sprint, Superspeed, Super Jump, Fly and Teleport).
*IF* City of Titans were to create a power in the spirit of Placate, I'd strongly recommend giving it both a Ranged *and* PBAoE component, so that it can be used against a target "across the room" while simultaneously Placating every hostile within Melee Radius. The Placate would do two things ... remove any of the Caster's persistent Debuffs from the affected Foes (so they don't instantly re-aggro for free), remove the Caster from the affected Foes' Threat List, and put the Caster back into "Hide" status (with all the bonuses that would come with doing that) while toggling on Hide (even if Hide was not yet fully recharged and available or was being suppressed). Essentially, Placate would "hide" you.
The proper way to deal with any kind of Assassin Strike or other sort of Snipe Attack is not to have a "dedicated attack power" which does that as its sole purpose, but rather to do something more like Build Up, where you apply a Self Buff that modifies whatever your next Attack Power is to turn it into a Spike Damage attack. Thus, while a Scrapper would have a "true" Build Up that offered a Damage Buff for a Duration, a Stalker by contrast would get a much bigger Damage Buff for a Single Attack at a cost of an Interrupt Duration added to that attack animation. If this Self Buff were invoked while in "Hide" status, the Damage Buff would be increased further, as would the Interrupt Duration (again).
You could even set this up such that if Build Up offered 10 seconds of Duration for 90 seconds of Recharge, that a Snipe or Assassin Strike buff power would offer a larger buff to only a single Single Target Attack with only 30 seconds of Recharge. Mix in Stealthy Alpha Striking via Hide and you've got the basic building blocks you'd need to do this. And as I've mentioned in another thread, if you make the Snipe or Assassin Strike something that "ignores" Tab Lock targeting and instead goes to wherever the "dead center" of your screen is aiming (requires UI reticle for aiming purposes invoked by power use) then you invoke a degree of "Player Must Control In Order To Hit Desired Target" that turns this kind of attack into its own sort of Mini-Game, which some will master, and some will not.

I like everything said here :D

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Flow- wrote:
Flow- wrote:

I like everything said here :D

Same. Regarding the spike vs. pressure, stalkers were pretty much defined as 'spike' by the interrupt time put on their big "attack from hide" power. I'm sure it was discussed back then and have no idea what came of it, but personally, if you're attacking from invisibility, I see no need to wait to do it, you do it, POW, no waiting but you, the glass cannon, are now exposed standing right there in the group of enemies...

Regarding creating a stealth class vs. sinking time into pet-controllers, that sidesteps my point: a stealth class should be considered as important at a pet-control class to keeping the spirit of CoH alive. But we can make ours better! Near the end they were quite close to being fixed imho, I never enjoyed them more than after the final round of fixes. They played like fragile yet-spiky scrappers, but were not scrappers. They were their own beast and I'll miss 'em.

Being the contrarian on this issue, I'm guessing I'll do what I can in the new game to create one and end just sort of sighing at the jury-rigged, hampered creature before me... Still, better than nothing. :)

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Stalker is another of the ATs

Stalker is another of the ATs with which I never did much (I think level 20-something is as far as I got) so I don't have any real experience with how they fared on teams, but I imagine that making such a stealth character an asset to a team is also a challenge. In particular if teams will tend to move as quickly as was often the case in CoH.

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Stalkers functioned, in

Stalkers functioned, in straight combat, a lot like Scrappers ... although with some important differences ... much like how Brutes functioned a lot like Tankers ... although with some important differences.


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I'm with everything Flow,

I'm with everything Flow, Redlynne and Clave Dark 5 said. I know some people think a Stalker was basically a variation of a Scrapper but I found it unique enough to want to play it besides a scrapper with Stealth or Invisibility. It was a fun solo AT. To me that gave more variety of choices and I don't wish for a watered down version. I am also afraid of the 'stealth so good, everyone takes it' and the 'stealth so mediocre it can be skipped. If it takes longer to implement the class then that is fine since there are going to be sooo many things we were used to having that won't be in at launch.

On a side note, some comments worry me in here about the devs foregoing Stalker-type gameplay but if you read the comments on Kickstarter it was mentioned they would definitely like to include it. Of course things change and what the devs meant may not have been the same as the player who made the comment though it seems really quick to read the reverse in this thread.

tldr - please include Stalker type gameplay

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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I for one disliked the

I for one disliked the Scrapper AT but very much enjoyed the Stalkers. One of my fav toons to play was a Street Justice/Ninjitsu Stalker, My friends and I also ran all Stalker Taskforces weekly.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Stalker is another of the ATs with which I never did much (I think level 20-something is as far as I got) so I don't have any real experience with how they fared on teams, but I imagine that making such a stealth character an asset to a team is also a challenge. In particular if teams will tend to move as quickly as was often the case in CoH.

Exactly why the notion of "having to wait to attack" was a bad one. Once they rejiggered using AS outside of combat (sans high level crits), they worked much better. And as I said, we can surely take the idea of the class and rebuild it from the ground up and make it work much better.

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One of the chief things to

One of the chief things to understand is the difference between what came before and what is being planned now. Before stealth was an effect of powers, therefore an AT designed with the use of and around Stealth was implemented. What is being planned is Stealth is a function of game play. Certain combinations of powers, skills, and player actions may be able to utilize the stealth system over those who don't use certain powers and skills. Its fundamentally different than a pet control Classification because pet control is not a part of core game play.

So what then would a Specification that specialized in Stealth do in a game system in which anyone can build to effectively stealth? It would need some type of way to take advantage of the stealth mechanics. Putting in 1 power which combined the efforts of multiple skills and powers would defeat the purpose of desinging a skill system which worked with the stealth mechanics. Putting in 1 attack power which gains an advantage of the stealth system creates a problem with what it does outside the skill system, and beyond this, if it were an entire Specification, how it functions absent of stealth. This was a fundamental problem with Stalkers in that it took multiple changes with several mechanical features to even begin making the AT functional within the context of CoH's game play system.

Instead of saying, if you as a player want to stealth well, you must use this Spec, we offer players the tools to take any Spec and allow you to use the stealth system if you choose. From there we can offer a particular Class a way to gain advantage utilizing stealth, without the need to make one specific type of power or one specific type of power set. The result is a wide range of players who can stealth, and an entire Classification with the appropriate Mastery which can gain a tactical advantage with stealth system, within which each Specification still functions as designed without outside the the advantages the Mastery provides. Certainly there may be a particular Specfification best suited for this style of play, but the Specification itself is not locked into one style of play either.


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I would have preferred to see

I would have preferred to see a Stalker AT also, given that my main villain was a claws/energy aura stalker. But if I can recreate him using some other method, such that he can stealth around and have some sort of massive attack from the shadows, that will do me fine. Clave, if you will have early access and can maybe publish something on the forums about how to best recreate a CoH-style Stalker, that might set our minds at ease.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Clave, if you will have early access and can maybe publish something on the forums about how to best recreate a CoH-style Stalker, that might set our minds at ease.

My area is "just" writing vs. doing the coding or game design...

BUT.

I will do my best to keep ears bent over this topic as it's obviously one I support. As we've already got some of those ears here (Zombie Man and Tannim222, we're looking at you!), I'm sure this plea has been heard and keep the fire going under it. That's because you guys can do more than I - the more players ask about something, the more likely you are to see it addressed. We've got a great, inventive team of people working behind the scenes in those areas I don't tread in (coding, game design), so I haven't yet given up hope - far from it - so neither should you!

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Clave Dark 5 wrote:
Clave Dark 5 wrote:

I haven't yet given up hope - far from it - so neither should you!

OK, I'll keep my hope alive!

BTW, this may give my age away, but I simply love your forum name. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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There has clearly been a lot

There has clearly been a lot of discussion on this post, but I'm gonna speak up just a bit cause I had mixed feelings on Stalkers in CoH. I loved playing a Stalker, even though I didn't get one very high. The ability to run in there and do a WAMBAM and the critter is dead is one I find very fun, however, I greatly disliked that there was no way for me to EVER be spotted. I could be standing right in the guy I was about to attack and unless he could see through all invisibility, I wasn't able to be seen with Hide on. If I remember right, the Invisibility Pool Power couldn't attack with it toggled (after they nerfed it and Phase Shift), so I always got a little miffed when my ghost character with invisibility wasn't able to be a "Blue Side Stalker" (I made her long before Going Rogue, hell, I made her before CoV was out). The ability to strike from the shadows and be completely invisible went with the Stalker AT, sure, but it drove me nuts, especially when the PvP zones had first came out and Stalkers were incredibly OP.

I actually really liked how WoW handled Rogue/Druid "stealth," actually. If you were close enough in level and distance, you could see the person sneaking around. It made PvP a lot more fun for me (as a rogue or not), and regular PvE more challenging since you could be seen by monsters too. I played a Feral Druid, so I stealthed a lot and despite it making me progress slower, I liked sometimes having to stop and hold my breath hoping that patrol didn't see my furry butt.

Anyone who has played WoW knows that Rogues aren't weak by any standard and can solo and group quite effectively without being too OP. Perhaps looking at the model for them could be a way to balance a new "Stalker" AT for CoT?

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The one thing about Stalkers

The one thing about Stalkers that I thought wasn't right was the whole idea of "hiding" right in front of the target. I get the whole uber stealthy mega strike thing. But if there were a way to make it so if you are in "hide" and can walk up behind your target, they can't see you....but walk right in front of them, they can. Just seems more realistic.

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Here's a wrinkle in the

Here's a wrinkle in the Stealth Mechanics that probably should have been included in City of Heroes, but which the game mechanics weren't designed to support. The essential idea is that the faster you're moving, the less effective your Stealth is. The BASIC idea is that high speed is incompatible with effective or otherwise meaningful/useful degrees or levels of Stealth. Move fast and your Stealth is lousy. Move slow and your Stealth is better. STOP moving and your Stealth rating is at its peak.

Now, there's a "problem" with that system (at least in terms of City of Heroes game mechanics) if you peg the Stealth Reduction due to speed to some sort of "velocity" system straight up. The reason why that would be a problem is that there were numerous powers (both Inherent and Travel Pool) which enhanced (with Enhancements!) the movement speed of characters. So if you peg the Stealth Reduction system directly to SPEED then you wind up with incentives working at cross purposes to each other, because slotting a Run Enhancement into Swift (for example) increases your movement speed and reduces your Stealth rating at the same time, and there's nothing you can do because advancing one harms the other. Zero Sum Game.

So the better way to handle this would have been to set things up such that if the +move or ++move keybinds are engaged (so as to move your character), the game then goes to a Lookup Table for movement powers and just adds up a Stealth Penalty based on which powers are active at the time. Note that this would have probably necessitated doing something "special" to Walk in City of Heroes so that you could Walk Stealthily instead of just running at normal speed all the time (in other words, voluntarily slow down to improve your Stealth above baseline).

So ... just for purposes of illustration of principle ... if you've got a Stealth effect of say, -100 (just to make the math easy for example purposes), when you're moving at "normal" running speed without other Powers being turned on (ie. the base default) ... if you slow down to a Walk that then becomes -125 and if you stop moving and stand still in place becomes -150. However, if you turn on Sprint, then your Stealth effect will be reduced by 40 to only -60, and if you turn on a Travel Power it'll drop by an additional 40 down to only -60 (no Sprint also) or -20 (with Sprint also). Doing this then makes "how Stealth work" become something more complex than JUST being a set and forget kind of Toggle (or Click) and where HOW YOU MOVE can impact just how Stealthy you are, relative to the Perception Radius of NPC Mobs and also PCs in PvP. It makes decisions about how FAST you move an important consideration, turning how you navigate through and past hostile obstacles more interesting than a question of "Stealthy? (Y/N)" like it was in City of Heroes.

Using this very simplistic system then, you can create Interesting Gameplay where if you want to sneak past a group of patrolling mobs, or even stationary ones on overwatch, you HAVE TO do so slowly (because if you don't they'll see you). It means that you can't just hit Superspeed and Stealth and run at Maximum Warp from beginning to end of the instance, find the Boss, Recall Friend everyone by your side (so they don't have to make the trip too) and just NEVER BE SEEN the entire way. It makes Stealth a VARIABLE rather than a constant ... but it does so in such a way that the Player has (relatively) complete control over just How Much Stealth they have in any given moment, simply by controlling which Powers they have engaged that either Buff or Debuff their movement rate.

Now, obviously, such a system would have a few Edge Cases such as ... Speed Boost out of Kinetics, for example ... that would need to be dealt with, and to be honest, I'm of the opinion that being able to Dismiss Buffs At Will so as to be able to "cancel" a Speed Boost you don't want(!) would be the ideal solution to these kinds of Edge Cases, so that Speed Boost "degrades" Stealth effectiveness as you'd expect/imagine, but you can "get rid of it" if you want to so that it doesn't have to remain an issue for you (where you have to wait for it to expire before resuming your Stealthy Movement) if you don't want it.

Needless to say, all of this fits together with the basic notion that a lot of games have (WoW is just merely one of the more well known examples) where if you Stealth (or Cloak, or whatever) your Movement Rate is often slower than normal/nominal while you are in Stealth. City of Heroes did this too by applying a Movement Rate Debuff on SOME of the Stealth Powers (the Pool Power mainly), but not all of them. It kept the gameplay system SIMPLE ... but I'm of the opinion that the system was TOO simplistic to generate the kind of Fun Challenge that the system I've outlined above would make possible, and the behavioral patterns, quirks and conventional wisdom that my system would engender in a Playerbase when they get to experience such a system in action in gameplay.

Thoughts? Comments?


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let me put stealth on my tank

let me put stealth on my tank.... that way my alpha strike agro builder will also be a crit MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Why not just have a stealth

Why not just have a stealth power and when you strike with it you hit for three times the damage, regardless of attack, but after you do attack from stealth, stealth goes on a long cooldown.

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Here is our original idea for

Here is our original idea for a "Stalker-replacement" mechanism, back when Masteries were called Foci and we were using CryEngine:

Alpha Strike - A first attack on an opponent will give a super-critical result if you can attack without having aggro. This is a very situational Foci for obvious reasons, but if combined with the advanced stealth pool mechanics, it would be able to give this "first-strike" capability for those people who prefer that form of gameplay. One of the reasons why this works is partially due to the advanced perception system already available within CryEngine, where you can differentiate between audio, visual, and positional awareness. If we combine this with the "spring-in" attack approach for melee, it can present itself in much the same way as the leap-from-above attacks you find in games like Assassins Creed. This mechanism could allow for the desired "Thief-like" playstyle, and could be quite popular.

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If you can get a mechanism

If you can get a mechanism like that for ranged, you might be able to build a decent sniper...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

If you can get a mechanism like that for ranged, you might be able to build a decent sniper...

Well, Masteries have improved a lot since this preliminary design (which was very static). We're not finished working on the design, but I think we're on the right track.

The glimpse was to show the original thought from where ideas came from.

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having a stealth like ability

having a stealth like ability would allow me to make a widow like toon, i had so much fun on my Fortunata , and stealth was a important part of the characters abilities

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I have to say I do not like

I have to say I do not like the Idea of replacing a stalker like archetype with a tertiary power pool.

Even if stalkers were unbalanced, they had a tactical advantage and a strong disadvantage by being not as tough as scrappers. So they had to play out their advantage right to be effective. When I can create an Gladiator with alpha strike ability and stealth, where is the disadvantage? If my alpha strike goes wrong, I'm still as sturdy as every other Gladiator. Not only would stealth feel unnecessary but I fear that this adaption of a stalker would be too strong and you'd end up having to nerf stealth down to the point where it is not fun anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the concept of a tertiary stealth pool for everyone and attacking out of stealth should definately provide a bonus, but I don't believe that this could provide a satisfying expierience for those of us who loved the stalker archetype.

Stalker was my main. Let me tell you, being more fragile was part of what made it so much fun to play. Yes, I invested a lot in my defense, so that I could actually hold my own in a fight, but I was still forced to use strategy. The feeling of playing a deadly but vulnerable archetype and succeeding, reaching 50 and becoming an incarnate was intensely rewarding, because I had the feeling I prevailed using my intellect.

I understand that this is not easily balanced and that many had a frustrating time playing the stalker. But for me it was the most fun class in the game, please at least consider a assassin-like archetype for the far future.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Yeah, our devs have pretty much ruled out an Assassin class (so far). Even in CoH, it was very problematic and constantly being tweaked to make it work.
Stealth is still in and presumably bonuses for stealth strikes. And maybe make that available to several character specifications. But balancing a whole AT around a one-shot? Not likely.
But... things could change.

what if instead of a balancing around a 1 hit assassin strike what if hide status worked like buildup where you remain hidden through the first attack and for 10 seconds after that doing guaranteed crits after 10 seconds you lose hide status until you placate.

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Yeah, it took me a while to

Yeah, it took me a while to find a good flow into stalkers. AT first, listening to how everyone said they should be played or rather as they put it "The right way to play a stalker, every other way is wrong" I found it a bit boring by level 14. SO then the first one one on the shelf for a while. But I did like the mechanics. So eventually I tried again, and damn someone telling me what is right or wrong way. SO I built a stalker around my playstyle. One that held it's own in a fight. And if I wanted a guaranteed crit, I could with ti instead of waiting for ages for the RNG gods to smile on the crit chance for scrapper. A battle stalker I called it. One that can hit hard in first hit but tough enough to stand up and fight until the job is completed without having to run back wait till hide to reactive, wait till AS recharge and then repeat process like those people were telling me to. But of course stalkers seemed to be commonly played based around that one AS attack and hide. I seen a few people never use any other enemy target based power besides, placate and AS.

Widows and Banes were cool too. I played one widow and one bane spider (before I discovered Crab).

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I say take your time on this

I say take your time on this one..

I know plenty of people dedicated to a stealth/surprise attack character. I think it's a smart decision to hold off on releasing some of these utility builds until after the basics of combat are defined. Not just defined by the devs but also defined by the player. Player behavior is kind of unpredictable.. they almost never use the tools their given for their "intended".

Tackle it with vigor and dedication, but after the game's identity is forged.

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My Stalker was one of my top

My Stalker was one of my top-five favorite characters. I had a Claws/regen and there was very, very little he feared. He was also more than passable as a Scrapper, once AS was over. He was a true badass. I miss him terribly.

I would like to get him back. The one I am afraid of not getting back, ever is my Arachnos Bane, who was a much more complicated beast.

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I take offense to people

I take offense to people saying Stalkers were not good. That they couldn't hold their own against a Scrapper. I'll have you know that my Electric Melee/Ninjitsu Stalker could handle +4x8 missions with ease. Solo. Even against Carnies. I've tanked with it before. Don't say Stalkers were crappy paper versions of Scrappers. It's totally not true. Maybe somebody just didn't know how to play a Stalker the right way. I loved Stalkers. Please bring them back.

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If something like Night Widow

If something like Night Widow ends up in this game, many, many doughnuts will be sent to your office.

Ex Night Widow PvP main

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The one stalker I had

The one stalker I had (Informant, homage to The Question) was Street Justice/Ninjitsu. I personally never had issues with survivability as long as I remembered to bring plenty of Inspirations, so maybe it's a matter of experience.

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Since the theme of the game

Since the theme of the game is superheroes, there should be enhances sensory powers available that counter stealth. The lack of that always seemed such a glaring void in CoH.

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Solomon Anagoge wrote:
Solomon Anagoge wrote:

Since the theme of the game is superheroes, there should be enhances sensory powers available that counter stealth. The lack of that always seemed such a glaring void in CoH.

Super Senses is something we are considering as part of our non-combat powers set up. Per usual, no promises if and when they make it through. But the possibility of using various types of super senses and the affect they have on a stealth system has not escaped us.

This is yet another reason why we are holding off on a "stealthy attacker specialist", because including super senses to counter forms of stealth is an added layer of complexity which must be navigated with care. If it becomes too complicated, we'd need to simplify which would probably result in varius super senes not working as counters to stealth, minimizing their uses to a degree. That is if we can even get it all to play nice together in the first place.


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Super Reflexes had a power,

Super Reflexes had a power, Enhances Senses, that allowed a bonus VS. Stealth, but not enough to counter a Min-Maxed Stalker.

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Targeting Drone was also

Targeting Drone was also effective.

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In my experience, auras that

In my experience, auras that auto-hit, or location powers that auto hit, were the best ways to detect and interrupt stalkers and Assassin Strike.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

Targeting Drone was also effective.

I'm sure double caltrops and a stack of mines was also effective finding Stalkers. :)

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Thunder-Puncher wrote:
Thunder-Puncher wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
Stealth is still in and presumably bonuses for stealth strikes. And maybe make that available to several character specifications. But balancing a whole AT around a one-shot? Not likely.

Thanks...,
- ...I found the idea of a Stalker AT to be rather...silly. Too much specialization under a single predefined purpose - hide and then attack from hiding, rinse, repeat - very two-dimensional. I -DO- like the idea of stealth strikes becoming an inherent part of stealth/invisibility powers. Someone wants to play an 'assassin'?...how about an Invisible Blaster using Sniper from a distance?...or a Stealthed Katana Scrapper using Golden Dragonfly against the unwary? That's assassination... ^_^
- Perhaps add into the Invisibility PP the ability to go into Stealth when in combat, much like the standard Stalker ability, for those who simply -MUST- be elusive...just provide a small variety of stealth effect during activation like 'flash' or 'smoke bomb' and you're set! :D

Actually, the archetype is a MMO staple (Thief/Rogue) and is not two dimensional. Also, the assassin or stealth villain is also a comic staple, so it would be expected that they would be in the CoV villain archetypes. I think the CoV development team did a wonderful job at creating aggressive Archetypes that reflect villains' proactive natures. Hopefully, CoT will do the same thing here. I see archetypes similar to a Brute and Corrupter that will be available on release but the Dominator and Mastermind will be after, and the poor Stalker may have to wait awhile.

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I'm bumping this to see if

I'm bumping this to see if the idea of having a Stalker type has changed at all? Its been a while since it was discussed here. :)

I would really love a Stalker again :)

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According to the chart, we're

According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.

A "gladiator" that relies on stealth...

Ok.....

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.
A "gladiator" that relies on stealth...
Ok.....

No.

The manipulation-defense sets don't include stealth.
All the ATs are designed so they can use any of the Mastery Powers. One particular Mastery set can use (but does not require) stealth to its benefit. Stealth, if that is a desired play style will require a combination of player awareness and a stealth power from a primary, secondary, or tertiary.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.
A "gladiator" that relies on stealth...
Ok.....
No.
The manipulation-defense sets don't include stealth.
All the ATs are designed so they can use any of the Mastery Powers. One particular Mastery set can use (but does not require) stealth to its benefit. Stealth, if that is a desired play style will require a combination of player awareness and a stealth power from a primary, secondary, or tertiary.

I see. Thanks for explaining it. My concern is perception versus stealth in PVP. Obviously in CoH it wasn't only good enough to have your your Stalker invis power but you had to stack it with the stealth pool power, and enhancements that gave you a stealth bonus. Likewise, blasters needed perception enhancements to detect Stalkers, so will this sort of dance between perception and stealth be a thing in CoT?

Will there be abilities that grant perception to see stealthy foes? and In that case, will there be enhancements a "stalker" type player can stack to help with against being seen?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

No.
The manipulation-defense sets don't include stealth.
All the ATs are designed so they can use any of the Mastery Powers. One particular Mastery set can use (but does not require) stealth to its benefit. Stealth, if that is a desired play style will require a combination of player awareness and a stealth power from a primary, secondary, or tertiary.

And which sets are scheduled to include stealth powers at launch? Creature of the night themed vigilantes want to know. ^_^

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.
A "gladiator" that relies on stealth...
Ok.....
No.
The manipulation-defense sets don't include stealth.
All the ATs are designed so they can use any of the Mastery Powers. One particular Mastery set can use (but does not require) stealth to its benefit. Stealth, if that is a desired play style will require a combination of player awareness and a stealth power from a primary, secondary, or tertiary.
I see. Thanks for explaining it. My concern is perception versus stealth in PVP. Obviously in CoH it wasn't only good enough to have your your Stalker invis power but you had to stack it with the stealth pool power, and enhancements that gave you a stealth bonus. Likewise, blasters needed perception enhancements to detect Stalkers, so will this sort of dance between perception and stealth be a thing in CoT?
Will there be abilities that grant perception to see stealthy foes? and In that case, will there be enhancements a "stalker" type player can stack to help with against being seen?

There will be some powers which improve Awareness (our version of perception). Just as a player may have powers which can improve Stealth. Greater stealth will work against Awareness allowing someone to approach their target. And we can include zones of reduced Awareness (such as snealing up from behind).

However, there is more to stealth and voiding detection than trying to stack stealth effects.

We will have a category of Tertiary powers called Super Senses and these will cover a range of abilities such as X-Ray vision, Infravision, and more.

Some of these will detect stealth out right (like X-Ray vision). Others though can be countered by Invisbility (like Infravision).

The inclusion of super senses makes the use of stealthy powers: stealth, invisibility, and phasing more of a chess game.

Of course there will be limiting factors to many of these super senses, such as their range of awareness, duration, and or cost. They will also require some tell-tale indicators stealth users will be able to notice when they're active.

X-ray vision may work in a wide cone for a certain length. If a stealt user was attempting to creep up in front of their target that suddently acrivated X-ray vision, they'd be seen.

But if the stealth user was coming from behind, well then they'd still be able to sneak up on their target. Again' more of a chess game. Knowing what types of powers to use, when, and positioning becomes more important than "just stack enough stealth" or "just stack enough awareness buffs".

Of course, we are a ways out from instituting all of that, and much of this is more of "in the future" than "right now".

For now, we have stealth, awareness, and positioning.

We will see how many tertiary sets we can include for launch at a later time.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
According to the chart, we're calling it a "gladiator," and it's on the launch list.
A "gladiator" that relies on stealth...
Ok.....
No.
The manipulation-defense sets don't include stealth.
All the ATs are designed so they can use any of the Mastery Powers. One particular Mastery set can use (but does not require) stealth to its benefit. Stealth, if that is a desired play style will require a combination of player awareness and a stealth power from a primary, secondary, or tertiary.
I see. Thanks for explaining it. My concern is perception versus stealth in PVP. Obviously in CoH it wasn't only good enough to have your your Stalker invis power but you had to stack it with the stealth pool power, and enhancements that gave you a stealth bonus. Likewise, blasters needed perception enhancements to detect Stalkers, so will this sort of dance between perception and stealth be a thing in CoT?
Will there be abilities that grant perception to see stealthy foes? and In that case, will there be enhancements a "stalker" type player can stack to help with against being seen?
There will be some powers which improve Awareness (our version of perception). Just as a player may have powers which can improve Stealth. Greater stealth will work against Awareness allowing someone to approach their target. And we can include zones of reduced Awareness (such as snealing up from behind).
However, there is more to stealth and voiding detection than trying to stack stealth effects.
We will have a category of Tertiary powers called Super Senses and these will cover a range of abilities such as X-Ray vision, Infravision, and more.
Some of these will detect stealth out right (like X-Ray vision). Others though can be countered by Invisbility (like Infravision).
The inclusion of super senses makes the use of stealthy powers: stealth, invisibility, and phasing more of a chess game.
Of course there will be limiting factors to many of these super senses, such as their range of awareness, duration, and or cost. They will also require some tell-tale indicators stealth users will be able to notice when they're active.
X-ray vision may work in a wide cone for a certain length. If a stealt user was attempting to creep up in front of their target that suddently acrivated X-ray vision, they'd be seen.
But if the stealth user was coming from behind, well then they'd still be able to sneak up on their target. Again' more of a chess game. Knowing what types of powers to use, when, and positioning becomes more important than "just stack enough stealth" or "just stack enough awareness buffs".
Of course, we are a ways out from instituting all of that, and much of this is more of "in the future" than "right now".
For now, we have stealth, awareness, and positioning.
We will see how many tertiary sets we can include for launch at a later time.

Ok, sounds like a solid way to go. I played a stalker towards the end of the game and it was kind of fun stacking stealth and constantly working on my character to get the highest amount of stealth and testing it in KR to see who could spot me and who couldn't so this is definitely good to know.

It is kind of weird having this whole mix and match CoT is doing, I get it, but it seems like it takes away from the benefit of being a certain type. Im sure its just something I would need to get used to, since most games have always just had a specific AT to choose from.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We will have a category of Tertiary powers called Super Senses and these will cover a range of abilities such as X-Ray vision, Infravision, and more.
Some of these will detect stealth out right (like X-Ray vision). Others though can be countered by Invisbility (like Infravision).
The inclusion of super senses makes the use of stealthy powers: stealth, invisibility, and phasing more of a chess game.
Of course there will be limiting factors to many of these super senses, such as their range of awareness, duration, and or cost. They will also require some tell-tale indicators stealth users will be able to notice when they're active.
X-ray vision may work in a wide cone for a certain length. If a stealt user was attempting to creep up in front of their target that suddently acrivated X-ray vision, they'd be seen.
But if the stealth user was coming from behind, well then they'd still be able to sneak up on their target. Again' more of a chess game. Knowing what types of powers to use, when, and positioning becomes more important than "just stack enough stealth" or "just stack enough awareness buffs".
Of course, we are a ways out from instituting all of that, and much of this is more of "in the future" than "right now".
For now, we have stealth, awareness, and positioning.
We will see how many tertiary sets we can include for launch at a later time.

I see that as less of a chess game and more like a raffle. If perception style 1 sees stealth style A and perception style 2 sees stealth style B and perception style 3 sees stealth style C. That's sounds great on paper until you decide to put your stelath points into stealth style C but the opponent uses perception style 1.

If you're saying that we will each have all of the perception styles and all of the stealth styles and we get to pick which one to use at a particular time, then I suppose that would be the chess game you were referring to.

But I don't think that is your intent, is it? I suspect your intent is that we will really only be able to raise one or maybe two stealth skills. So without choices it will really be up to chance like a raffle. Did I pick the matching stealth style in character creation to deal with this lvl 27 opponent or not?

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because I do love making our choices count. I just don't think that chess game would be a good way to describe it.

... unless you had multiple characters in your party, each with a different stealth skill, so you would have to decide which character to send behind enemy lines. I suppose that would go back to the chess game idea.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
We will have a category of Tertiary powers called Super Senses and these will cover a range of abilities such as X-Ray vision, Infravision, and more.
Some of these will detect stealth out right (like X-Ray vision). Others though can be countered by Invisbility (like Infravision).
The inclusion of super senses makes the use of stealthy powers: stealth, invisibility, and phasing more of a chess game.
Of course there will be limiting factors to many of these super senses, such as their range of awareness, duration, and or cost. They will also require some tell-tale indicators stealth users will be able to notice when they're active.
X-ray vision may work in a wide cone for a certain length. If a stealt user was attempting to creep up in front of their target that suddently acrivated X-ray vision, they'd be seen.
But if the stealth user was coming from behind, well then they'd still be able to sneak up on their target. Again' more of a chess game. Knowing what types of powers to use, when, and positioning becomes more important than "just stack enough stealth" or "just stack enough awareness buffs".
Of course, we are a ways out from instituting all of that, and much of this is more of "in the future" than "right now".
For now, we have stealth, awareness, and positioning.
We will see how many tertiary sets we can include for launch at a later time.
I see that as less of a chess game and more like a raffle. If perception style 1 sees stealth style A and perception style 2 sees stealth style B and perception style 3 sees stealth style C. That's sounds great on paper until you decide to put your stelath points into stealth style C but the opponent uses perception style 1.
If you're saying that we will each have all of the perception styles and all of the stealth styles and we get to pick which one to use at a particular time, then I suppose that would be the chess game you were referring to.
But I don't think that is your intent, is it? I suspect your intent is that we will really only be able to raise one or maybe two stealth skills. So without choices it will really be up to chance like a raffle. Did I pick the matching stealth style in character creation to deal with this lvl 27 opponent or not?
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because I do love making our choices count. I just don't think that chess game would be a good way to describe it.
... unless you had multiple characters in your party, each with a different stealth skill, so you would have to decide which character to send behind enemy lines. I suppose that would go back to the chess game idea.

The inclusion if Super Senses changes the nature being stealthy. It is no longer a matter of stealth and perception (or Awareness in CoT).

It is no longer a one solution system where enough stealth is equitable to a Invisnibility or where being Invisible provides the best result.

Now it is a matter of the right power(s), knowing your opponents, timing, and positioning.

Somone activating x-ray vision will be able to use it in a certain range of view. Someone using stealth would have the best chance of sneaking up on this target from outside of this view.

The x-ray vision user may have a limited time so they can't constantly spin around trying to catch a stealth user.

Again, the right power(s), timing, and positioning will matter when using stealth and attempting to counter stealth. Which is closer to how stealth games play than how it worked in CoH.


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This idea of stealth and

So from what I understand, perception vs stealth is not so black and white as it was in CoH. In CoH, the distance of perception determined how much stacked stealth a stalker would need. but in CoT, from what you are stating, its not only the awareness in terms of distance, but the type of awareness ability the player has.

Let's say youre playing a stalker type. How are you supposed to know what kind of awareness ability the other player has? How would I know that X Player has xray vision and that I need to sneak up from behind as opposed to, lets say a different power where he can see me from all angles and I would have to change my tactic?

Its one thing to know how close you can get before the player becomes "aware" of your location, but having to find out how close and from what angle based on their awareness power seems like PvP is not going to be so simple.

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Back when this project

Back when this project started and we learned there would be no AT analogous to the Stalker, we were told that we would be able to use Tertiaries to re-create a Stalker-like experience.

It's starting to sound like this isn't the case. I don't care about PvP, but this seems quite different even for PvE. It's sounding a bit more like a stealth FPS than a stealth class in an MMO.

I'm not sure yet whether this new take on it will be more or less fun, but I'll reserve judgment till I learn more. It may be one of those things where one can't really know till one gets to try it for oneself.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

This idea of stealth and perception in CoT is starting to snowball imo. If perception and stealth are not black and white, and you have this grey area of what type of awareness or stealth a player has, then PVP would be horrible in this case.

Let's say youre playing a stalker type. How are you supposed to know what kind of awareness ability the other player has? How would I know that X Player has xray vision and i can sneak up from behind as opposed to, lets say a different power where he can see me from all angles?

Its one thing to know how close you can get before the player becomes "aware" of your location, but having to find out how close and from what angle based on their awareness power seems like PvP is not going to be so simple.

If anything having multiple versions of "stealth" will make PvP more realistic. There's absolutely no PvP law that says a stealth user must be 100% sure that his/her version of stealth will always work against every target they encounter. No more "easy gank mode" for stealth-users in PvP seems completely fine to me.

People have complained that black-n-white perma-holds made PvP too frustrating. I could see the same argument being made against black-n-white "perma-stealth" users who could permanently been hidden vs. their targets. Removing the ability to have a "perma-stealth" seems like yet another improvement to the overall PvP situation.

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I like the idea that no

I like the idea that no amount of or version of Invis or Stealth is the end-all-be-all. for one thing, nobody ought to have the type of total obscurement we had in CoX. In CoX, one proc in Super Speed made everyone totally imperceptible to most mobs, even at point blank ranges, where they ought to be able to hear you, smell your breath, feel/hear your bodily motions in the floor vibrations etc.

In my imagination you could have a visual stealth power, then a supersense like x-ray or infra-red vision that defeats it. Then have a better invis that defeats that and a super hearing that gives you some warnig that a stealthed ivdividual is within your audible range, possibly with a direction indicator of wheat direction they're in relative to you, then the stealth guy would have some kidn of sound dampening that defeats that, then the supsesensor might have an olfactory sense that can smell you from a given range and direction, etc.

All of that is pie in the sky at this point for me, but ultimately what the "Stealth" people seem to want is to be able to one-shot gank people from a position of perfect, undefeatable hiddeness with no need to actually move stealthily, or slower, or respect the terrain, or try to move while the target is looking the other way, etc. I think it should be more of a cat and mouse game than that and more of an arms race to even get there.

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Wait till the environmental

Wait till the environmental perception steps in.

Yeah, those security cameras, they work now.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Wait till the environmental perception steps in.
Yeah, those security cameras, they work now.

For some reason this instantly made me think of Invisible Boy's version of Invisibility...

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Wait till the environmental perception steps in.
Yeah, those security cameras, they work now.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Wait till the environmental perception steps in.
Yeah, those security cameras, they work now.

Woot! Glad to hear. Sounds like a true stealth experience is on its way.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

So from what I understand, perception vs stealth is not so black and white as it was in CoH. In CoH, the distance of perception determined how much stacked stealth a stalker would need. but in CoT, from what you are stating, its not only the awareness in terms of distance, but the type of awareness ability the player has.
Let's say youre playing a stalker type. How are you supposed to know what kind of awareness ability the other player has? How would I know that X Player has xray vision and that I need to sneak up from behind as opposed to, lets say a different power where he can see me from all angles and I would have to change my tactic?
Its one thing to know how close you can get before the player becomes "aware" of your location, but having to find out how close and from what angle based on their awareness power seems like PvP is not going to be so simple.

There aren't different types of Awareness. There is only one Awareness, and it works similarly to CoH with Stealth vs. Awareness. The difference being that we will have angles of Awareness which are stronger (front facing) or weaker (rear facing).

So you're best bet will be to sneak up from behind.

But there will be different powers with different effects, such as the aforementioned x-ray vision.

In whcih case if it isn't on, you may not know your opponent has it. Once it is turned on, there could be a clear visual indicator of its active field of view. A combat log saying so-and-so has used x-ray vision is possible. A key sound effect can be paired with it.

And what the x-ray power can do mechanicslly is improve the foward cone of awareness a certain degree while reducing other angles of awareness more. Making it impossible to sneak up on someone in melee from the front, but even easier from other angles of approach.

Also, we can use your target window to provide indications of your target's "alertness" to your presence. So you'll have another clear indication of how your stealth is being affected by the target's Awareness.

Stealth should be an interesting puzzle to figure out, even in PvP. Where there is more than one solution to how to be stealthy, and more than one solution to how to not be caught unaware.

Remember, we aren't aiming to replicate CoH here. The base mechanic is similar, with some minor changes. It is when we get to Super Senses and other forms of stealth is when things get interesting.

We also didn't purposefully make a "stealth AT". There is a melee Mastery that can use stealth to its advsntage, but that is only part of what it does. There will be other uses for thet Mastery beyonf just being stealthy.


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Here, let me show you how a

Here, let me show you how a perception system works, how you can make a nice indicator for it in active use, responses, etc (stock, came with Unreal, but demonstrates the general idea):

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From my point of view, if I

From my point of view, if I am trying to make a stalker type in CoT, then like in CoH, I would think being stealthy is my specialty. Meaning, my benefit for the type of build I chose is to be unseen and be able to cause a great deal of damage while in stealth mode. Just like a blaster has the benefit of damage in his snipes, or a tank has the benefit of being able to take a lot of damage.

If max stealth is available to all types, I cant seem to wrap my head around the possibility of running into a tank that has more stealth than a stalker type toon.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

From my point of view, if I am trying to make a stalker type in CoT, then like in CoH, I would think being stealthy is my specialty. Meaning, my benefit for the type of build I chose is to be unseen and be able to cause a great deal of damage while in stealth mode. Just like a blaster has the benefit of damage in his snipes, or a tank has the benefit of being able to take a lot of damage.
If max stealth is available to all types, I cant seem to wrap my head around the possibility of running into a tank that has more stealth than a stalker type toon.

There are masteries which will still make a stalker-type build stronger at sneak attacks than a sneaky tank.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

From my point of view, if I am trying to make a stalker type in CoT, then like in CoH, I would think being stealthy is my specialty. Meaning, my benefit for the type of build I chose is to be unseen and be able to cause a great deal of damage while in stealth mode. Just like a blaster has the benefit of damage in his snipes, or a tank has the benefit of being able to take a lot of damage.
If max stealth is available to all types, I cant seem to wrap my head around the possibility of running into a tank that has more stealth than a stalker type toon.

Only the enforcer can get a mastery where he can get a bonus from attacking from stealth. A tank can't.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Here, let me show you how a perception system works, how you can make a nice indicator for it in active use, responses, etc (stock, came with Unreal, but demonstrates the general idea):

That looks great for a single-player FPS, but I'm having a hard time seeing how this would work well in an MMO, especially when teamed.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Here, let me show you how a perception system works, how you can make a nice indicator for it in active use, responses, etc (stock, came with Unreal, but demonstrates the general idea):

That looks great for a single-player FPS, but I'm having a hard time seeing how this would work well in an MMO, especially when teamed.

Well it's just the blueprints version...

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

From my point of view, if I am trying to make a stalker type in CoT, then like in CoH, I would think being stealthy is my specialty. Meaning, my benefit for the type of build I chose is to be unseen and be able to cause a great deal of damage while in stealth mode. Just like a blaster has the benefit of damage in his snipes, or a tank has the benefit of being able to take a lot of damage.
If max stealth is available to all types, I cant seem to wrap my head around the possibility of running into a tank that has more stealth than a stalker type toon.

Have you read up on the masteries system that is planned?

There is a specific mastery that allows you to leverage "surprise" attacks for additional damage. You don't need stealth to use it, but stealth makes it easier to strike them unaware. My impression is that the mastery also allows for bonus dmg if your target is stunned, disoriented, held (etc.).

My namesake was my stalker and main. Using CoT's planned design, I have not doubt that she will live again ... only better than she ever was before. Choosing an attack set that has said stuns/disorients and tertiaries with holds. Even without stealth she will be able to play her role. Whether or not she ever gets stealth specifically is undetermined at this point but is a possibility. Regardless, she will be played as a stealth character.

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