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So, just how big could I be?

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Demrius
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So, just how big could I be?

Yep its me again... and I have a question....

Just how big can I make my hero's?

I ask this because one of my heroes would be massive is both mass and height I'm talking max height and mass here..

So what I a asking is this what would you all think the max height and mass should be in game?

--Formerly Jorortis--

Note: Jorortis is still a character of mine and is still going to be in the super group, not Demirus, at least not yet...

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Big, but not so big that to

Big, but not so big that to avoid clipping issues the devs have to make all doors so tall that a 6-foot character looks tiny passing through one.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to request that ordinary citizens in Titan City not all be 7 feet tall as they seemed to be in Paragon.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Thats an interesting question

Thats an interesting question... and it almost always makes me think back to indoor missions and how Masterminds pets would PISS me Off by either blocking the way (not too relevant here) or just OBSTRUCTING My View (very relevant here).

I suspect Houdini can scale up or down structures easily in the 3d editor, so ceiling heights can be changed in less than 5 minutes for a while indoor mission. Not gonna stress over that.

I found myself Constantly having to Re-Adjust my cameras perspective view to see the enemies. And this was doubly hard if you played a Tank and as any good tank, you had to mind your surroundings and know at all times where each enemy was and who the enemy was going after on your team. Or Even someone with AoE powers and you wanted to include the MOST enemies in the Area of Effect, and trying to pick just the right Middle point for the AoE.

Well, thast more to do with Height than Width or Girth of a players stature/build. ;)
That I dont care so much about, just as long as you cant grow your character to 20 Feet tall. ;)

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Well there talk between 8 and

Well there talk between 8 and 10 feet being max height. Primary reason for this is map height can't have a Giant in a small office building for example. At the very least you be as high as CoH allowed. Bulk well there was the talk of having Fat characters and the Devs seem to be letting us have such body types.

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Demrius
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Funny you say that because,

Funny you say that because, the citizens in DCUO only come up to a large strikers chest.

--Formerly Jorortis--

Note: Jorortis is still a character of mine and is still going to be in the super group, not Demirus, at least not yet...

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I know in Champions Online

I know in Champions Online there a temp power /store power that lets your character get super tall. Two stories, it's non combat and can only be used outdoors.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Big, but not so big that to avoid clipping issues the devs have to make all doors so tall that a 6-foot character looks tiny passing through one.
While we're on the subject, I'd like to request that ordinary citizens in Titan City not all be 7 feet tall as they seemed to be in Paragon.

Yah, that always bothered me too. I remember my first character was supposed to be a big boy, just naturally, before he got his powers. So, I made him 6' 2" inches and ran out into Paragon City and... looked up at the first businessman I ran into.

I mean, 6' 2" is a tall person in the real world, but in Paragon that was your average librarian or lab assistant. You had to be freakishly tall just to "read" as average height in Paragon. I vote we keep real-world average height average for NPC's or else just not equate height to any measurements so that it's all just relative.

While a hero being freakishly tall and/or massive should be possible in a Superhero MMO, the truth is some people just can't help making every hero max height just like some people can't resist making max-chestslider Super "heroines". But let's not make the NPC's that way too.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

...some people can't resist making max-chestslider Super "heroines". But let's not make the NPC's that way too.

That made me think of the creepy female sex doll citizens in CO. *shudder*

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Big, but not so big that to avoid clipping issues the devs have to make all doors so tall that a 6-foot character looks tiny passing through one.
While we're on the subject, I'd like to request that ordinary citizens in Titan City not all be 7 feet tall as they seemed to be in Paragon.

Yah, that always bothered me too. I remember my first character was supposed to be a big boy, just naturally, before he got his powers. So, I made him 6' 2" inches and ran out into Paragon City and... looked up at the first businessman I ran into.
I mean, 6' 2" is a tall person in the real world, but in Paragon that was your average librarian or lab assistant. You had to be freakishly tall just to "read" as average height in Paragon. I vote we keep real-world average height average for NPC's or else just not equate height to any measurements so that it's all just relative.
While a hero being freakishly tall and/or massive should be possible in a Superhero MMO, the truth is some people just can't help making every hero max height just like some people can't resist making max-chestslider Super "heroines". But let's not make the NPC's that way too.

I didn't really see the NPCs in Paragon as being absurdly tall, other than that 6 foot 5 Matthew Haberdashery in Atlas. The cars were all really small, but not bizarrely so.

Praetoria, on the other hand, had some real pro basketball stars. The first guy you see was Officer Flint, almost 7 feet tall. Compare him to the 5 foot 10 Paragon City Officer Flint.

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The general idea here is that

The general idea here is that heroes will be no larger than a sedan, since that's about the largest thing you can drive through a java hut with and not take the whole building with you.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I didn't really see the NPCs in Paragon as being absurdly tall, other than that 6 foot 5 Matthew Haberdashery in Atlas. The cars were all really small, but not bizarrely so.
Praetoria, on the other hand, had some real pro basketball stars. The first guy you see was Officer Flint, almost 7 feet tall. Compare him to the 5 foot 10 Paragon City Officer Flint.

Yeah, they may have been over the average height in the US, but the NPCs in paragon didn't strike me as being 7 foot.

That said, I'm guessing 8 feet as the max height, as that was what we had in CoH.

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ceilings are taller than

ceilings are taller than doors. require people to duck or crawl through spaces?

What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau

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"Ordinary" character avatar

"Ordinary" character avatar maximum height ... I'd be fine with 10 ft.

"Giant Monster" avatar maximum height ... I'd be fine with 50 ft for a "humanoid" avatar (that walks).


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shes more like 120 feet in

shes more like 120 feet in the picture, but hey,a good sized giant would be 20 feet tall. you would come up to their knee at 6' tall.

What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau

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I'm tagging along with

I'm tagging along with everyone who said to make citizens average heights. What's the point in being super tall if that just makes you super average?

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gotta agree, that was one

gotta agree, that was one thing I never really understood in COH...how all the civvies were all freakishly tall. I would like to see the civvies be of a "normal" height...say 6' ish. It would be really cool if you could randomize their heights though, within the "normal height range though...say 5' to 6') :)

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As long as I can play the

As long as I can play the Ultra Gigantic Humanoid Decisive Weapon Diebuster, I'm good. Say about 5000 miles from main boosters to cowlick?

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I'm with others on the call

I'm with others on the call to make NPCs not all basketball stars.

I'm a huge fan of being able to build a "Gigantic" hero though. I'm fine if I have to ignore that I'm clipping as I squeeze my toon through doors. I'm even fine if doors don't allow characters that are too large to go through them. I would be just as enthused about building a 50 foot tall hero even if they were incapable of entering many of the missions, or had indoor areas suppress growth powers (Another idea would be to allow team leaders an option to suppress growth graphic effects beyond X height so that giant characters don't hog teammate's screen space in a mission). For once in a super hero MMO, I want to be able to look a giant monster in the eye, and then beat the crap out of it on my own, because I'm also a giant.

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I think it would be great if,

I think it would be great if, since it's a new game with new animations, excessively tall characters ducked, leaned, or crouched as necessary to get through doors.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I think it would be great if, since it's a new game with new animations, excessively tall characters ducked, leaned, or crouched as necessary to get through doors.

Software/animation-wise it certainly would be possible to account for tall characters having to "duck" to get through doorways and such. To be clear I'm stressing the word "possible" here.

The downside is that you'd have to bother to calculate whether any 3D space was low enough to force the character to trigger its "crouch" animations which would require constant checking as the character moved around. Every ceiling/roof area would have to have its own "height" value maintained in some kind of database or calculated on the fly which simply adds more processing for something that might not end up being a noticeable benefit for a lot of players.

All I'm saying is that making sure that no characters are tall enough to worry about having to crouch through doorways and such does have distinct gameplay advantages for a MMO.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Let's face it, some people

Let's face it, some people just like to have a character (My preference was always a Tank type) who was large enough to rival the HULK. :)

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Speaking of "big", will we be

Speaking of "big", will we be able to, say, make our characters very fat or very muscular? And not just the men, but the women as well

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MadDemon64 wrote:
MadDemon64 wrote:

Speaking of "big", will we be able to, say, make our characters very fat or very muscular? And not just the men, but the women as well

The Devs of CoT have already told us there will not be a separate Huge male body model the way there was in CoH. They are going to (at least at first) concentrate only on one universal human male model and one universal human female model.

But don't be misled into thinking we will no longer be able to make "huge" sized characters. The Devs have also told us that the male and female models of CoT should end up being much more scalable/modifiable than they ever were in CoH. This means that these models should be adjustable all the way from tiny to huge sizes or anything in-between. This even allows for "huge female" bodies which as we know weren't even possible in CoH.

As far as how "fat" we'll be able to make the models goes I think again we'll have more range of options than we did in CoH. I don't think the CoT models are going to allow for massively jiggly super-blobs, but from what the Devs said we should be able to make legitimately chubby/puggy/rotund characters.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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All of this makes me wonder

All of this makes me wonder just how small can we be?
Is tinkerbell possible?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a standard range from 4-8 ft, then allow growth and shrinking powers?
Shrinking could improve your defense, reduce aggro and allow you to move through tiny openings into areas others couldn't reach, or would have to find other ways to get to.
Growth could increase your strength, aggro and resistance to force damage and stun effects.

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We'll burn that bridge when

We'll burn that bridge when we get to it. ^_-


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I had a character in CoX that

I had a character in CoX that was conceived as a mobile infantry battle armor that another, normal-sized person was inside, driving. Not a super-form-fitting Iron Man-style suit, but more of an Appleseed Landmate. So: huge body type, sliders generally maxed out, all robot parts, the big, round, bulky ones.

Appleseed Landmate

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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One disappointment I faced

One disappointment I faced with CoH's character creator is that I could not create a character who had the close-fitting Iron Man style suit and also a larger Landmate style suit. It was all or nothing with the huge body type.

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Maybe in the "Character

Maybe in the "Character Creator", they should add a height meter showing you some of the heights of the citizens. That would give you an idea of how big you should make your character.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

All of this makes me wonder just how small can we be?
Is tinkerbell possible?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a standard range from 4-8 ft, then allow growth and shrinking powers?
Shrinking could improve your defense, reduce aggro and allow you to move through tiny openings into areas others couldn't reach, or would have to find other ways to get to.
Growth could increase your strength, aggro and resistance to force damage and stun effects.

I wouldn't have a problem with specific powers that temporarily affected your height and gave you some of the benefits you mention here. But I would make sure that even if the basic character creator allowed for very short or very tall characters that picking those heights alone would not give you any built-in size-oriented benefits.

For example if the creator allowed for a 1 foot tall "Tinkerbell-sized" character that character would not get any game mechanics benefit from that size unless you also used a specific "Shrink" power that directly provided those benefits. It's the same costuming restriction that kept you from being able to fly just because you chose to put wings on your back - in that case you still needed a Fly power in order to fly.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I had a character in CoX that was conceived as a mobile infantry battle armor that another, normal-sized person was inside, driving. Not a super-form-fitting Iron Man-style suit, but more of an Appleseed Landmate. So: huge body type, sliders generally maxed out, all robot parts, the big, round, bulky ones.

Darth Fez wrote:

One disappointment I faced with CoH's character creator is that I could not create a character who had the close-fitting Iron Man style suit and also a larger Landmate style suit. It was all or nothing with the huge body type.

The other downside to only having the Huge body type for the Landmate idea in CoH was that it was hardwired to be "male". I had my own version of a character who occasionally piloted a big battle armor suit but in my case my character was a waifish 15 year old girl. Once CoH allowed us (with the Science Booster pack) to use different body models in different costume slots I was sort of able to create what I was after. But it was always hard to reconcile why my female character had to be considered a "huge male" as far as the game was concerned when she switched over to the armor costume slot.

Hopefully CoT will make creating the "Landmate piloted by a female character" scenario a little more straightforward.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I think one of the Dev's

I think one of the Dev's might have brought up the ability to Grow Taller, or larger, as the battle progresses..
maybe in concert with Momentum?!? I'm not too crazy about that approach. :P

But, I might be willing to accept a Stalwart Defense based powerset called 'Zilla that did that. :)
The larger you get, the slower you are and more HP you have..
..and the larger you get, you take more Environmental damage too.. like walking in an indoor mission,
there are hanging lights from the ceiling your head hits, or the destructible archway you plow your way through,
when your large form collides with the smallish archway,
which also does Minor Stun + AoE damage as it hits teammate, when the deb-re falls on them. :)

More things like that. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I wouldn't have a problem with specific powers that temporarily affected your height and gave you some of the benefits you mention here. But I would make sure that even if the basic character creator allowed for very short or very tall characters that picking those heights alone would not give you any built-in size-oriented benefits.
For example if the creator allowed for a 1 foot tall "Tinkerbell-sized" character that character would not get any game mechanics benefit from that size unless you also used a specific "Shrink" power that directly provided those benefits. It's the same costuming restriction that kept you from being able to fly just because you chose to put wings on your back - in that case you still needed a Fly power in order to fly.

That's actually why I suggested a normal range from 4-8 ft. That wouldn't give any advantages

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Champions also had a shrink

Champions also had a shrink device, opposite of the giant ray, and also out of combat only.

I made a rat character with all sliders to small, and beast stance (great idea!) and bought the shrinker off the shoppe.

While not quite true rat size, I was about knee height IIRC.

It would be nice to have a wider range of sizes -- I always thought the brownie race in EQ was reasonable (and their reason for not was getting stuck more often) but that should be less of an issue.

CoH already had issues with industrialization of raids, with tanks being tiny so as to not block views from other characters, regardless of the character's theme. Most MMOs that allow more than trivial size adjustments suffer from this.

Is it a problem? No. PvP problem with tinies? Maybe, but PvP is the tail that should not wag the dog.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I wouldn't have a problem with specific powers that temporarily affected your height and gave you some of the benefits you mention here. But I would make sure that even if the basic character creator allowed for very short or very tall characters that picking those heights alone would not give you any built-in size-oriented benefits.
For example if the creator allowed for a 1 foot tall "Tinkerbell-sized" character that character would not get any game mechanics benefit from that size unless you also used a specific "Shrink" power that directly provided those benefits. It's the same costuming restriction that kept you from being able to fly just because you chose to put wings on your back - in that case you still needed a Fly power in order to fly.

That's actually why I suggested a normal range from 4-8 ft. That wouldn't give any advantages

Again if CoT sticks to the rule of thumb established by CoH (where character size alone provided no built-in game mechanic advantages or disadvantages in PvE or PvP) then there's really no reason why CoT couldn't allow characters to range from say 2-10 feet. Remember the main reason why CoH didn't allow for super short or super tall characters had more to do with body model limitations with the old graphics engine than worry about people having unfair size advantages in combat. In simple terms as long as it's not harder to hit short characters or easier to hit big ones then everything's fine.

Besides for what it's worth you were the one who specifically asked if we could have Tinkerbell-sized characters. Given the better technology for rendering characters in UE4 there really doesn't seem to be any reason not to allow them.

As a separate issue the game could ALSO provide for shrink/grow powers that could actually provide some traditional height-based combat effects. But those powers would be completely independent of whatever initial height you make your character in the character creator. A character's appearance doesn't (and should never) have any direct connection to any powers/abilities they have so forcing everyone to a "normal" level height (4-8 feet) doesn't really give you the "room to grow or shrink" like you're implying here. If a player wanted to use a shrink power on a character that was already only 2 feet tall they likely would not get to see any additional visual shrinking effect but at least the shrink power would give them the tangible in-game effects that they were going for when they created a tiny character to begin with.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yes I want the tiny and large

Yes I want the tiny and large toons to both be available, but I also like the idea of getting some benefit from the extremes of size.
That's why I would like a fairly normal range of 4-8 ft.
then if you take a shrink or tiny power, you'd not only be smaller but get benefits from being small
and if you took a growth power you'd not only be bigger but also get benefits from being bigger.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Yes I want the tiny and large toons to both be available, but I also like the idea of getting some benefit from the extremes of size.
That's why I would like a fairly normal range of 4-8 ft.
then if you take a shrink or tiny power, you'd not only be smaller but get benefits from being small
and if you took a growth power you'd not only be bigger but also get benefits from being bigger.

If you choose to make a 6 foot tall character in order to actually see a significant change in height up or down when you used shrink/grow powers then more power to you. But your desire for that shouldn't be able to stop my desire to have a permanently 1-2 foot tall Tinkerbell type character who might choose to run a shrink power on a permanent toggle to gain the actual in-game benefits of been "shrunk" even if I don't get to see any additional visual shrinkage.

You have to quit equating any actual character size (established in the costume creator) to any powers that may as a side-effect potentially affect height. Your desire to force everyone to live within your arbitrary 4-8 foot range doesn't take into account what anyone else may want from this. That's usually your problem when it comes to these things - your inability to realize that other people may want to do other things with this game that you don't.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I don't see why there has to

I don't see why there has to be any conflict
It's possible to include both a toggle and an always on versions of the powers
then you can take the one you want.
That''s actually the way I'd prefer it.

I made a nice suggestion which you've deliberately twisted into some demand I never made.
"You have to quit""
"'Your desire to force everyone"
"That's usually your problem"
"your inability to realize that other people may want"

These are ugly and demanding words that offer no compromise.

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What Lothic's saying is that

What Lothic's saying is that there is no reason to mandate buying a power to be tiny. There are several ways to achieve it:

1) Buy permanent shrink power. Be tiny and also have the buffs associated with the power.
2) Buy toggled shrink power. Be tiny and have the buffs when the power is on, but not when it is off.
3) Make your character tiny in the character creator. Have no buffs.
4) Make your character tiny in the character creator. Buy the shrink power as well for the buffs.

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I was only offering a

I was only offering a suggestion
I think it's quite reasonable
and I'm not really going to care one way or the other if my suggestion is used or not
but I'm really tired of being accused of making demands when I've never made any.

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I think it's mostly in the

I think it's mostly in the phrasing you tend to use, MP. Let's look at what you posted:

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Yes I want the tiny and large toons to both be available, but I also like the idea of getting some benefit from the extremes of size.
That's why I would like a fairly normal range of 4-8 ft.
then if you take a shrink or tiny power, you'd not only be smaller but get benefits from being small
and if you took a growth power you'd not only be bigger but also get benefits from being bigger.

It sounds like you are saying that shrinking below 4ft or growing bigger than 8ft would require buying a power. And if you're talking about getting buffs for being huge or tiny then take makes perfect sense, since people shouldn't be getting buffs without paying for them somehow.

However, if there are no buffs associated with size (as opposed to sizing powers), then there is no reason to limit the size range to 4-8 feet. At least, no reason associated with size-related buffs. There may be graphic or design reasons, but in that case the size range limits should be the same for the character creator as they are for sizing powers.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I had a character in CoX that was conceived as a mobile infantry battle armor that another, normal-sized person was inside, driving. Not a super-form-fitting Iron Man-style suit, but more of an Appleseed Landmate. So: huge body type, sliders generally maxed out, all robot parts, the big, round, bulky ones.

Darth Fez wrote:
One disappointment I faced with CoH's character creator is that I could not create a character who had the close-fitting Iron Man style suit and also a larger Landmate style suit. It was all or nothing with the huge body type.

The other downside to only having the Huge body type for the Landmate idea in CoH was that it was hardwired to be "male". I had my own version of a character who occasionally piloted a big battle armor suit but in my case my character was a waifish 15 year old girl. Once CoH allowed us (with the Science Booster pack) to use different body models in different costume slots I was sort of able to create what I was after. But it was always hard to reconcile why my female character had to be considered a "huge male" as far as the game was concerned when she switched over to the armor costume slot.
Hopefully CoT will make creating the "Landmate piloted by a female character" scenario a little more straightforward.

Did the same, and hated it for the same reason.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I had a character in CoX that was conceived as a mobile infantry battle armor that another, normal-sized person was inside, driving. Not a super-form-fitting Iron Man-style suit, but more of an Appleseed Landmate. So: huge body type, sliders generally maxed out, all robot parts, the big, round, bulky ones.

Darth Fez wrote:
One disappointment I faced with CoH's character creator is that I could not create a character who had the close-fitting Iron Man style suit and also a larger Landmate style suit. It was all or nothing with the huge body type.

The other downside to only having the Huge body type for the Landmate idea in CoH was that it was hardwired to be "male". I had my own version of a character who occasionally piloted a big battle armor suit but in my case my character was a waifish 15 year old girl. Once CoH allowed us (with the Science Booster pack) to use different body models in different costume slots I was sort of able to create what I was after. But it was always hard to reconcile why my female character had to be considered a "huge male" as far as the game was concerned when she switched over to the armor costume slot.
Hopefully CoT will make creating the "Landmate piloted by a female character" scenario a little more straightforward.

Did the same, and hated it for the same reason.

Same here. I'd have much preferred having a 'huge non-gendered' version as well as a huge female version.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

All of this makes me wonder just how small can we be?
Is tinkerbell possible?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a standard range from 4-8 ft, then allow growth and shrinking powers?
Shrinking could improve your defense, reduce aggro and allow you to move through tiny openings into areas others couldn't reach, or would have to find other ways to get to.
Growth could increase your strength, aggro and resistance to force damage and stun effects.

I think I know what Paladin, meant.

Let me take a crack at it, (I've been thinking about how to say it, but I'll have to use some CoX examples).

The "Will Power Set" , had a toggle power called "Heightened Senses", the perk in getting that power was (+perception +Def +Resist). Now what "I think" Paladin meant, was, if you could shrink, wouldn't it be great if the perk could change also.

Now if I was to shrink small, the perk would look like this, ( +Def +Speed ) but I wouldn't be strong.
And if I was to grow larger, the perk would look something like this, ( +Resist -Speed ) but also have Super Strength.

That's the best I can do, hope y'all understand what Paladin was trying to say.
Think of it as two builds in one character, when you shrink, it's one way, and when you grow, it's the other.
( Or is that three builds )?

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Maybe there should be a (

Maybe there should be a ( Shringro Archetype ), it would be similar to the "Kheldian's Archetype", kinda.

After you select the "Shringro Archetype", it sends you to the "Costume Creator", so you can make your character.
( While in the "Costume Creator", you can select how small and how tall, you want your character to be )
( You wont be able to select any powers, because the "Shringro Archetype" comes with it's own power selections )

~ When you shrink, your power pool would consist of,
( + Defense +Damage +Speed + Endurance +Travel Power ), the damage perk is reduced.

~ When you grow, your power pool would consist of,
( + Resist +Damage +Speed +Heal +Jump ), the speed perk is reduced.

~ Your regular form, power pool would be a mixture of the two, something like this,
( Def/Res, Damage, Speed, Heal, Endurance, Jump ), all perks are reduced.

~ Click the "Shrink", or "Grow" toggle button, to change forms.

~ Only one toggle can be activated, at a time.

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

All of this makes me wonder just how small can we be?
Is tinkerbell possible?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a standard range from 4-8 ft, then allow growth and shrinking powers?
Shrinking could improve your defense, reduce aggro and allow you to move through tiny openings into areas others couldn't reach, or would have to find other ways to get to.
Growth could increase your strength, aggro and resistance to force damage and stun effects.

2 Thumbs up!! Probably not the place for that comment here, but, I was just thinking the same thing!! I would like the ability to make a very small character, and, for outdoor use a different with the growth!! And a few big bruisers as well... I hope the limb joints aren't like CoX where there was visible overlap... We do have much better processing, video cards, and software now... And that the costume would distort with the "skin" of the limb, like it would with a real person wearing tight stretchy clothing where the bending is taking place, etc...

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Hmm. This thread wandered

Hmm. This thread wandered around a bit.

Personally, I do not favor potions or pills or technology that shifts a character outside of the standard range (whatever that range might be). I would rather see a broad range of sizes in the character creator itself than see characters jumping back and forth between sizes. Yes, I know, in some comics the "Alice in Wonderland" paradigm has been taken to an extreme, but the programming required to implement that is time I would rather see spent providing greater diversity in zones, more navigable maps, or greater variety of costume pieces.

The one problem I have with character size isn't so much character size as it is map size. If you create a 10 or 20 foot tall powered armor suit then the game should flat out prevent you from entering maps with low ceilings. Even in CoH, some of my taller characters were forever getting stuck in cave missions or Council bases because the darn ceilings were so low. I seldom maxed out the height and only once made a Huge character because it never failed that sooner rather than later I'd walk through an office building door and find myself in a Council base getting stuck between battle rooms.

If the ability to make enormous characters exists, I don't have a problem with it, but maps need to accommodate those sizes or give a warning and then exclude them. If they are excluded from certain maps (the logical solution), then they will need an alternate way to complete missions, or better yet, simply be given alternative missions right from the start.

If a player wants a tiny girl driving an enormous mech, fine, then they need to be restricted to outdoor maps or indoor maps with extremely high ceilings.

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All office buildings are

All office buildings are regulated by CoT administration board to clearly label the maximum height any hero or villain may be to help or hinder their establishment. The are required by law to accommodate as super and non supers within the sized of 4 to 7 ft. Minimum height required for OSHA compliance is 3ft 6 inches as per the non discrimination boards amendment 32b subsections 3a though 4g.

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The Mad Hatter is chasing the

The Mad Hatter is chasing the giant from Time Bandits through Lidsville and shouting such things as "Give back my house" and "Please don't step on me or anyone I'm not currently cross with"

I don't think that has anything to do with the topic, but whenever I open this thread I imagine large people.

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This is the least necro

This is the least necro thread I could find where the topic for the comment I wanted to make had been discussed, and I didn't think a whole new thread was warranted, so...

Since there has been a lot of discussion surrounding the Costume Creator lately, I wanted to once again plead--PLEASE have height prominently displayed in both Metric and US systems in the Costume Creator, and make sure that the NPC height scale is sensible.

I clearly remember my very first CoH character and lovingly working out all of his physical attributes including his not-too-tall "just above average" height--about 5'11'ish--and then loging in and being--a hobbit. I felt like I had to be careful not to get stepped on.

The average street person seemed over 6 feet tall. And the average hero running around seemed at least 7! Superman is 6'3 and Marvel's Hercules is 6'5"! They'd have been a shrimps in CoH.

Now, people are going to do what ever they want with their individual character height--and it's their money, so be it--but an accurate world scale and metric reference in the Costume Creator will at least keep the inevitable height-creep from getting completely out of control.

Pet peeve, I know, but I hope it is handled better than it was in CoH.

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I haven't though about Height

I haven't though about Height much, just assumed Shortest person could be 4' or 4' 5", and tallest person could be 7' 5" or 8'. ;)
Am I Wrong?!? :<

Maybe 7' 5" or 8' is AFTER you use/consume the Growth Potion/Serum. ;)
Otherwise talles a person could be is 7'. ;D

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

This is the least necro thread I could find where the topic for the comment I wanted to make had been discussed, and I didn't think a whole new thread was warranted, so...
Since there has been a lot of discussion surrounding the Costume Creator lately, I wanted to once again plead--PLEASE have height prominently displayed in both Metric and US systems in the Costume Creator, and make sure that the NPC height scale is sensible.
I clearly remember my very first CoH character and lovingly working out all of his physical attributes including his not-too-tall "just above average" height--about 5'11'ish--and then loging in and being--a hobbit. I felt like I had to be careful not to get stepped on.
The average street person seemed over 6 feet tall. And the average hero running around seemed at least 7! Superman is 6'3 and Marvel's Hercules is 6'5"! They'd have been a shrimps in CoH.
Now, people are going to do what ever they want with their individual character height--and it's their money, so be it--but an accurate world scale and metric reference in the Costume Creator will at least keep the inevitable height-creep from getting completely out of control.
Pet peeve, I know, but I hope it is handled better than it was in CoH.

I'll add a second vote for consistent PC / NPC height body scaling. I too always thought it was a little annoying having to second-guess about and/or readjust my characters' heights because it was always hard to judge (in the character creator) how my height would compare to other characters around me.

I'll also second the need for easy switching between the Metric and Imperial/Standard units in all the GUIs. This should be relatively trivial to do. Alas if Jimmy Carter had gotten his way us poor Americans would have already been fully Metric by 1980 but we all know how that turned out...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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LOL metric buys us nothing in

LOL Metric buys us nothing in the US. We're in no hurry to throw out all our printers and switch from Letter to A4 just to make the French happy. For engineering purposes, we already use Metric and what we don't use is actually based on Metric under the hood anyway. 1 inch = 25.4 mm exactly, and we don't mess with feet or yards until it's time to print marketing materials.

That said, I think Empyrean is spot-on in that the user should be able to set their units preferences (along with 12/24-hour clock, date format, and other i18n things). You know the UK customers are gonna be annoyed if they can't get weights in "stone". And it would be cool to have selectable backgrounds in the character creator, with one of them being the traditional height lines background they use in so many mug shots...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

LOL Metric buys us nothing in the US. We're in no hurry to throw out all our printers and switch from Letter to A4 just to make the French happy. For engineering purposes, we already use Metric and what we don't use is actually based on Metric under the hood anyway.

LOL if the USA had fully converted to Metric 40 or 50 years ago like most of the rest of the world did then we wouldn't even be having this conversation and CoT would likely only use Metric units as expected. Whiny snot-nosed Millennials everywhere wouldn't even realize that there was ever an archaic system of measurements OTHER than Metric at this point. Sure the British still mess around with a few non-metric units, but that's mostly because they used to run everything back in the good ole empire days and they're just funny like that anyway.

As the wiki page I linked to mentioned, "This, according to the CIA Factbook, makes the United States one of only three countries as of 2015, with Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia, that have not adopted the metric system as their official system of weights and measures." Nice company to keep I guess...

While I do understand that in many ways the USA is pretty much The Roman Empire Version 2.0 so it's easy to see why we, as the current superpower on the planet, managed to avoid having to change. But the very fact that we haven't collectively switched yet (beyond the scientific and military communities) does seem pathetically sad to me. Like Idiocracy type sad. *shrugs*

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

and we don't mess with feet or yards until it's time to print marketing materials.

I'll just point out one more time if the great unwashed masses had "bit the bullet" decades ago people like you wouldn't have to waste extra time converting anything to anything else. Just saying...

Don't worry - I don't really spend ANY time beyond writing posts like these trying to get anyone else to change over - I realize it's basically a lost cause at this point. Besides I'm sure President Trump will go the extra mile (not kilometer) and outlaw the Metric system completely regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Wouldn't have been any easier

Wouldn't have been any easier then, either. Would be easier to deprecate Windows and Intel than get the US to adopt Metric, then or now. Other countries had it easier back then because we just got dome bombing the crap out of each other and everything had to be rebuilt anyway.

Sure, you can casually ignore the huge amount of infrastructure (street signs, printing presses, paper and printers, any industry related to construction, etc.) that would have to be outright discarded and replaced (read: trillions wasted) to switch, but it doesn't stop being a real issue. And we'd still be losing space probes due to unit conversion errors; the units involved will just be newtons and dynes.

Far easier to simply take the good parts of Metric and leave out the expensive bits. Our auto industry is all Metric; they just present an English UI, like CoT can easily do, and everyone's happy.

And yes, I agree that we're just a couple bored nerds arguing on the Internet. Nobody else cares.

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Well, I care about nerds,

Well, I care about nerds, more than I do metrics, but you DO realize that the metric system was designed by the French, right?

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Well, I care about nerds, more than I do metrics, but you DO realize that the metric system was designed by the French, right?

Ummm... does it matter who came up with it? be it Atomic Fusion or the most convenient measurement system, all starting with the smallest agreed upon distance between two points (Millimeter), and build on that, using 10 as a base/post-marker, since 10 is a natural segregator in math.. or at least I feel it is. I'm inclined Not to care if i found out that Aliens came up with the Metric system, as long as it's 10 based. ;)

Why bring up Math when talking about Measuring systems? Well, one hand washes the other, Unless.. one hand is 7.5 in. and the other is 19 cm. :/

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In CO, believe you can

In CO, believe you can indeed fight big with enrage and some other buffs. Characters can become huge in CO. It is doable, outdoors of course. All zones must have a high ceiling though if it were to happen in CoT lol.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Well, I care about nerds, more than I do metrics, but you DO realize that the metric system was designed by the French, right?

Yep. As a matter of fact, one of my token trash talk lines is that Metric "was invented by people whose native language needs almost ten words to say 'ninety-nine'." It's right after the one about how British English includes a lot of extra letters because they want to honor their French legacy.

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Four is almost ten?

Four is almost ten?

Admittedly it's been a few decades since I studied French, so I just now relied on an internet free translation, but "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf" sounds about right. ^_^

But, yes, that "four-twenty" to get "eighty", and then adding "ten" to get "ninety" always struck me as a bit wasteful. Almost as bad as Spanish with the "and" before the word representing the ones digit...

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Yes, we can taunt and laugh,

Yes, we can taunt and laugh, but it's true that French was once the primary language of Science and French people were among the premier scientists of that period.

It's odd, how some players will insist that their favorite character is 3 meters tall, without recognizing that humans build Everything to a scale for not-more-than 2 meters, meaning that the over-tall and over-bulky hero is forced to practically crawl in any 'normal' human space. 'Hulking out' destroys, not just your clothes, but also the building you're standing in, and you can't fit through doorways. The 'big person' will be forced to be a passenger in any vehicle, and may not even be able to use vehicles at all. Being 'big' in normal people space is incredibly inconvenient.

All of that said, 'big people' are popular in heroic tales and I have a character who will, naturally, be as big as possible... or maybe not, but still quite big. 2 meters seems, not quite enough, but 3 meters would be way too much!

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Yeah, three meters is usually

Yeah, three meters is usually ceiling height these days.

Haven't reread this thread, so not sure if this was mentioned, but I was generally annoyed with the gigantic spacious interiors on the maps, noting like real life, that were there because the maps needed to accommodate maximum-dimension characters and other mobs. Being Reichsman means never having to duck under a door frame, apparently.

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On the other hand, if more

On the other hand, if more real world humans were 8+ feet tall, doors, ceilings, and beds would probably normally be larger.

I am not sure a 6 foot tall person not wanting to feel like a 4 foot tall person "in real life" should be a design decision.

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7ft was the standard in CO.

7ft was the standard in CO. Screw standards, there are people recorded at over 8 ft, so you telling me super heroes can't get bigger than that?

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Wasn't the default closer to

Wasn't the default closer to six feet? My max-size characters were about eight feet tall. And they still fit through CoH doorways without having to duck.

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Mechanics is all that

Mechanics is all that concerns me about this.

Really Giant = disadvantages group in PvE. If the boss has a tell for some big attack that's not telegraphed other than their movement, welp, I'm gonna get hit because someone up front is larger than the boss and I can't see the tell.

Really Small = advantage in PvP. If your auto-target isn't picking them for some reason and you try to click manually while they're zipping about... good luck! ...like trying to hit a fly with a q-tip.

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BiotopeZ wrote:
BiotopeZ wrote:

Mechanics is all that concerns me about this.

Really Giant = disadvantages group in PvE. If the boss has a tell for some big attack that's not telegraphed other than their movement, welp, I'm gonna get hit because someone up front is larger than the boss and I can't see the tell.

Really Small = advantage in PvP. If your auto-target isn't picking them for some reason and you try to click manually while they're zipping about... good luck! ...like trying to hit a fly with a q-tip.

100%, great point.

This could be remedied imo with a aura beam or something which sprouts upward, or those big red paths ESO has. In CO, you could get really big like 25ft, and I never heard any complaints. Their bosses are exclamation mark spamming crazy to boot.

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Something that bugs me in

Something that bugs me in games is when the furniture and such are built with max height and size in mind. So average people look tiny in comparison to the world around them. I think CoH did this a bit and CO did it a ton.

Let us normal sized folks have our stuff!

Also it'd be nice to play a huge character and then have to deal with the fact that chairs and stuff aren't built for you.

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CoH did it on everything too.

CoH did it on everything too. Stuff was set up for the big people.

I agree, should be scaled for 5'6 - 6'4 people. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoH did it on everything too. Stuff was set up for the big people.

I agree, should be scaled for 5'6 - 6'4 people. :p

We're agreeing on stuff, this is a whole new experience!

It'd be really great to have it set so doors are normal and larger models stoop or sidle to go through, but I can understand that would require more effort on the devs part.

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I liked having a max height

I liked having a max height of 8 feet of height. I didn't like that there were average enemies (Council and Rikti) that seemed to tower over even that.

If we can avoid the "Everybody's the same height!" approach a lot of games have been using lately, I'd be very happy.

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Speaking of enemy height it

Speaking of enemy height it bugs the crap out of me when raid bosses in MMOs are giants when they're not supposed to be.

I'm fine with big enemies when it makes sense.

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In this image screencapped

In this image screencapped back during Issue 2 of City of Heroes, Redlynne was 5ft nothing ... meaning that those 5th Columnists you see there are (proverbially) 9ft tall ... and that punching at shoulder height or kicks delivered to head height of my avatar would smack these guys in the crotch. And I remember thinking at the time, "whiskey tango foxtrot, these guys are 9 feet tall!"

At the very last City of Heroes Player Summit I told Positron about this particular screencap and he explained that "back in the day" there had been a bug in the coding that randomized the heights of these NPCs, producing odd edge cases like this one, where the NPCs could be randomly scaled up to as much as 10ft tall.


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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Speaking of enemy height it bugs the crap out of me when raid bosses in MMOs are giants when they're not supposed to be.

Arthas comes to mind... when (not to mention, why) exactly did he have his massive growth spurt?

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Nos482 wrote:
Nos482 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Speaking of enemy height it bugs the crap out of me when raid bosses in MMOs are giants when they're not supposed to be.

Arthas comes to mind... when (not to mention, why) exactly did he have his massive growth spurt?

I'm sure it's for targetting reasons or something but it's still bizzare to have things like this. I mean there must be a better way than to have the NPC be 2-4x the size of a PC.

In a Superhero setting having people be giant is a given. But it'd be nice to have a reason for why they're huge if they're not otherwise.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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What's the point of having

What's the point of having the perfect size of furniture if you cant even interact with it.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What's the point of having the perfect size of furniture if you cant even interact with it.

Having context sensitive emotes like FF14 has would be great. If you use the sit emote next to a chair you sit on it (most of the time anyway)

I wonder if context sensitive emotes are something doable for Titans. I also wonder if they can make a character reach up or down based on the other character's height.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

In a Superhero setting having people be giant is a given. But it'd be nice to have a reason for why they're huge if they're not otherwise.

Personally, I always found there to be a lot more menace in characters that are small. Sure, you've got mechs that can duke it out with godzilla, , but by and large (meta)physically weaker opponents in a pond with a lot of big fish tend to fighter smarter, harder, and plan. The nine foot tall dude made of rock that robs a bank is intimidating and a problem, but the psychomancer that infiltrated City Hall is much worse.

Not exactly a response to what you said, admittedly, but you made me think to say it.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

In a Superhero setting having people be giant is a given. But it'd be nice to have a reason for why they're huge if they're not otherwise.

Personally, I always found there to be a lot more menace in characters that are small. Sure, you've got mechs that can duke it out with godzilla, , but by and large (meta)physically weaker opponents in a pond with a lot of big fish tend to fighter smarter, harder, and plan. The nine foot tall dude made of rock that robs a bank is intimidating and a problem, but the psychomancer that infiltrated City Hall is much worse.

Not exactly a response to what you said, admittedly, but you made me think to say it.

No worries. I enjoy the sharing of ideas.

Don't forget about shrinking heroes/villains they can be hard to hit and hard to take down. Also hard to see. You don't want one of those in your power armor/spandex/clothes/etc!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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City of Titans, but you are

City of Titans, but you are capped under 10ft. Titan also deals with size. 10-15ft is solid imo.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What's the point of having the perfect size of furniture if you cant even interact with it.

Having context sensitive emotes like FF14 has would be great. If you use the sit emote next to a chair you sit on it (most of the time anyway)

I wonder if context sensitive emotes are something doable for Titans. I also wonder if they can make a character reach up or down based on the other character's height.

It certaibly is possible. Whether or not we include it and when is another thing altogether.


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Project_Hero
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

What's the point of having the perfect size of furniture if you cant even interact with it.

Having context sensitive emotes like FF14 has would be great. If you use the sit emote next to a chair you sit on it (most of the time anyway)

I wonder if context sensitive emotes are something doable for Titans. I also wonder if they can make a character reach up or down based on the other character's height.

It certaibly is possible. Whether or not we include it and when is another thing altogether.

:D

My hopes have been raised even more than they already were!

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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WoW has a teeni tiny shrinker

WoW has a teeni tiny shrinker "toy" that makes you about the size of a thumb for 2 minutes, with corresponding run speed decrease. It's tremendous fun but non-combat.

I note this is about the size of the hatchling lizard men in Feerot forest, home of the Ogres in EQ 1.

As for superlarge and doors, make doors huge because the world has mini-giants and that's just the way it is. Think to the mistake Dragon Age made with the drarven stone golems -- when they made DL content of one you could play, Shale, they had to make her very worn down looking as if eroded, so she could fit through doors without clipping.

Personally, I'd build in a duck or even crawl auto-movement for larger characters to go through doors. Purely visual, it would look silly and fun and work well to solve the problem.

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In Lost Ark, the summons or

In Lost Ark, the summons or pets are more like attacks instead of a companion that follows the character. I kind of like that idea. Maybe have flashes or glimpses of a giant character. For instance, a specific attack would may the hero grow large, then he/she reverts back to normal size after the attack. CO does this.

This game is great, CO just lets you do pretty much whatever you want. You could just think of anything out of the blue, and 10/10, CO will allow to do it.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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CO has a couple of growth

CO has a couple of growth things. One is an item that temporarily increases your size, the other is an advantage of a power. When you gain a stack of enraged your size increases.

It's not really part of an attack, you don't grow big for an attack then shrink down. You grow bigger for every stack of enraged and shrink back down when you lose them. I think with the right set up you can sit on about 3-5 stacks all the time, coupling that with the temporary growth item allows you to grow even bigger, then you combine that with the shrink ray power advantage that gives you height when it shrinks a foe (objects count as foes) allows you to sit comfortably at around 3-5 stories tall for about... I wanna say 30 seconds or so?

At max stacks of enraged, shrink ray, and the item, I think you end up around 8-10 stories tall... For about 5 seconds or less.

I could be off by some in areas. It's been some time since I played. I had a growth hero named Big Ben, so I know a bit of what I'm talking about.

Some problems with it are: can't stay huge for long, camera doesn't rise with character height so you the player can't see how tall you are, your jump height to character height is laughable (unless you have super jump), you look goofy as funk when you run as your speed isn't increased with your height making your tall guy look like he's almost running in place, and it can annoy those around you as you're huge and are through everything.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

CO has a couple of growth things. One is an item that temporarily increases your size, the other is an advantage of a power. When you gain a stack of enraged your size increases.

It's not really part of an attack, you don't grow big for an attack then shrink down. You grow bigger for every stack of enraged and shrink back down when you lose them. I think with the right set up you can sit on about 3-5 stacks all the time, coupling that with the temporary growth item allows you to grow even bigger, then you combine that with the shrink ray power advantage that gives you height when it shrinks a foe (objects count as foes) allows you to sit comfortably at around 3-5 stories tall for about... I wanna say 30 seconds or so?

At max stacks of enraged, shrink ray, and the item, I think you end up around 8-10 stories tall... For about 5 seconds or less.

I could be off by some in areas. It's been some time since I played. I had a growth hero named Big Ben, so I know a bit of what I'm talking about.

Some problems with it are: can't stay huge for long, camera doesn't rise with character height so you the player can't see how tall you are, your jump height to character height is laughable (unless you have super jump), you look goofy as funk when you run as your speed isn't increased with your height making your tall guy look like he's almost running in place, and it can annoy those around you as you're huge and are through everything.

Now that it think about it, I have been in parties with these people and it was a non-issue. Knock-back attacks? Those would draw frowns and complaints. Being big does not affect the mechanics.

When fighting cosmics, I constantly have to get a good angle, because they are so freaking big and everyone is cluttered. I guess it was a little annoying, but nothing a mouse and movement key could not fix.

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It can be annoying if all you

It can be annoying if all you can see on your screen is the feet of your ally. And I know for a fact some folks used being huge on CO as a form of griefing.

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This is how big you can be in

This is how big you can be in the mmo PSO2, @1:28. This includes parties, and as you can see, there is a lot of dodging involved.Not an issue with big toons.

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Yeah, being about 2x as big

Yeah, being about 2x as big isn't much of an issue. But being 2x as big is something I expect from the basic character generator.

12ft tall, not much trouble. 30ft tall? Different storey.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Yeah, being about 2x as big isn't much of an issue. But being 2x as big is something I expect from the basic character generator.

12ft tall, not much trouble. 30ft tall? Different storey.

I see what you did there... ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I like a good pun.

I like a good pun.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Yeah, being about 2x as big isn't much of an issue. But being 2x as big is something I expect from the basic character generator.

12ft tall, not much trouble. 30ft tall? Different storey.

I see what you did there... ;)

lmao, that was good, did not catch that.

I like 12 ft, what is everyone's thoughts on 12ft? One thing that bugged me in CO was how my "huge" dino toon was nearly the same size as the clean shaven dashing gentlemen next to me. & if you are hunched over, that brings your size down considerably.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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