I've known players that have tried to use a location for an event- whether its roleplaying or PvP fight-club or costume contest- only to find griefers that try to do whatever the game mechanics allow to interfere. It may be jumping around between a bride and groom during the marriage, ganking a tournament member in a fight club, or destroy all the furniture in room x while people are using them. Let's change that.
In these instances, /ignore can eliminate the spam from text, but not the visual diruption that person brings (or the destructive options in PvP-enabled areas. While these guys are intentionally being jerks, they do have a defense- it is their zone, too. As long as they have every right to be there, they'll have to cross a certain threshold before a GM rightfully ejects them.
My proposal: let us make private instances-- particularly of the social spots like gyms, clubs, dojos, etc. The increased number of virtualized instances is bound to be a resource hog, so charging for this ability might be necessary, but I'll leave that to the business end.
How this would work: you select to enter one of the supported areas and are given the list of options, one is "create a new private instance." You do so and enter.
When you create the instance, you can specify any other users that are also admins for that instance (all must have the right to create one themselves, no handing off to non-payers). At least one of the people on that list must be present for the instance to remain. Console commands will let you add others from within the instance.
You can also choose whether this is private (open to invitation, friends, supergroup, etc), open (with admin's having the ability to eject & ban anyone they wish), and whether certain game elements apply (NPC's present/absent, destructable elements enabled or not, PvP enabled or not, etc).
The result- a self-policed instance of a game zone where community members can have some control over their events and incidents without interfering with any other player's 'right to be there." Hopefully, such a feature would lead to fewer complaints to GMs, giving them a better chance to address the issues the issues that can't be self-policed.
Fully loaded city zones with NPCs and such is unlikely to be instanced for a small group because of resources. However, thanks to your question, we're investigating instancing smaller or partitioned or stripped down instances or using mission maps for instancing social events. No promises or anything!
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
We hosted several Costume Contests in the Power House Theater in CO. And CC crashers we had a lot of. We had some that would stand in peoples square and push them out. Or follow the person around. They would try to stand between us and the winner thinking we would click on them by accident so that they could take the winnings. We had people shouting in zone chat disrupting us from talking to the contestants. Sometimes it was one. Sometimes it would be a group of them. And they would do that a lot. And getting rid of them just wasn't happening. Yea we could /ignore but it didn't solve the problem. And there are no GMs around to do anything. So people know they can just overall be jerks and get away with it. I would love a way of creating some kind of social instance that was private and be able to boot people from the instance. Or just some way in general to remove the griefer permanently or for a really long period of time from the area so that the rest of us could continue with our event.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
The thing to remember too is, regardless of whether a feature like this makes it in or not you'll still have SG bases that are instanced, invite only, and highly customizable that you'll be able to use for things as well.
[color=#ff0000]Gameplay And Content Team[/color]
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/24ypdt0.png[/IMG]
Yeah something like that, a feature that actually take care of people that exhibit that sort of behavior would be nice. People will do what they know they can get away with. Like in some MMOs, people do that sort of thing because they know good and well, even if ya report them, the moderators aint going to do a darn thing about it. If the people are lucky they might get a basic message from them saying "Just ignore them>" and that is as far as their rule enforcement goes. Thus, nothing happens to the person doing the behavior and they will not only continue doing that stuff, but they will push the envelope to see how far, and when people see them getting away with it, more people start doing it. Soon the rules and moderation becomes more of a joke, a running gag, something not even worth taking a serious. Take the rules and wipe the behind with it, because it's as toothless as an 100 year old grandma trying to gum a steak to death.
In the meantime if moderation is going to be as laxed as it is in most games, hopefully they will have a feature where CC and other gatherings can go without being disturbed by others that simply want to be butts while the other players subject to this stuff is basically armed with only a useless ignore button. Yeah close your eyes, the monster will go away. Nope, closed eyes or not, they will still be standing right there.
But even if we used an SG base for something like a CC, invite only. How many people will we be able to get in there. CC's can be pretty huge. Only being able to invite say 10 to 20 people is still pretty small amount when you have 50 to 60 people wanting to enter it. And I have been to some of those CCs that hit 50. One of ours actually hit 40 one time.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
Good point.
The one that CORP throws the last one at least hit at least 100 participants and literally had to schedule by category because the zone was full.
I always wondered if some sort of rent a venue feature could be added. Like someone want to throw an event (CC or RP session or what ever) and they can rent a venue for some time and the person paying the rent for that moment can toss out unruly people for that time period. Although on the flip side I can see a system like that being abused by someone simply rent camp the venue. AKA, rent it repeatedly but do nothing with it just to take up space and prevent others from renting it. Idea not fully fleshed out. Kind of like a temporary private chat cannel except in person or rather in game person. Got a person during the event for the time slot you rented and they act unruly, they get bounced. No champagne for them.
Something to think about... just spitballing on my part...
Players running social events could be given a pop-up window to alert the GM staff about the event, its nature and time and place. Then, if the GMs didn't have any pending tickets, they'd drop by and watch and put the ban hammer down on trolls and troublemakers as they're griefing.
Do that a few times and folks learn not to mess with social events.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Very good idea.
Although, will there ever be a time as such they are not bogged down with tickets? As that is usually te general reasoning for not enforcing rules in PVP zones and other areas in general PVE population due to lack of time to monitor the area and "arrest" law breakers due ot the other tickets they have to deal with.
Private instances could be purchased from the cash shop for a nominal fee(more for a whole zone, less for a wedding chapel). Purchaser gets admin privelages.
Firefly of Phoenix Rising
I think this falls under having enough GMs to both handle tickets and police for behavior. Because whether the boss is stuck in the wall, or Dr. Jerk is disrupting a costume contest, we want a speedy responce.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I think what people really want here is to be able to put on an event with an audience while being able to remove the jerks. How about setting up a stage area that can be set to invite only with convenient vantage points around it?
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Don't know what you don't know. Only know what you know.
-The wiseman.
Yup.
Yea it would be great to be able to communicate closely with GMs about large social events such as CC's that can be monitored for the troublemakers. But, there would have to be enough of them to be able to handle that. And I'm sure that everyday a MMO doesn't only hit say 10 tickets a day. The for sure must hit way past that in a given day. And to have to handle tickets and events i'm sure isn't an easy task if at all possible for the amount of GMs available for that. Could just have some kind of volunteer group that can be trusted to even handle such things. They would be there to watch for example the CC events and keep trouble makers out. They would work closely with the hosts of those events.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
I think could work. Then if problem arises with said control group, then the moderators could handle it. AKA some over sight only when needed for the control group, you know to prevent them from forming a clique and griefing someone over and over for past grieviances. Or kicking people out they dont like but allowing their friends and people they liek run around liek wild hooligans.
Exactly. And they will form. Great Power and yada yada. When a group of people have it . At some point that group will start to be controlled by it. It just happens. Have to just have a GM assigned to over see that event group. So if something suspicious like that starts happening, it can be reported hopefully by someone in the group or by someone feeling that they are being targeted for no reason. But, at least its an interesting alternative to just hoping a GM will answer the ticket or actually do something about the trouble maker and not just answer us with "just ignore him" Cause like it was stated earlier. If the troublemaker can get away with it. They will continue and more and more people will start doing it. Then you have just griefers all over the place and people start hating on the GMs because no one is doing anything about these people crashing the events.
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
Exactly.
People do only what they are allowed to get away with. If they see that any one that reports them only get a message of "Just ignore them" then they will continue and others see this and the problem grows as the griefer knows that aint anyone going to do anything to stop them, and feel empowered because then it turns into "Well if you don't like me griefing you, leave the *insert area* or else sit here and take it and be thankful that I am griefing you." AKA empowering the offender and no power for the victim.
Kind of like what happened in the PVP zones. And we seen how that turned out. Dead zone with a bunch of bored people with no one to grief besides the occasional Badger. And thus that created resentment in the fact that one had to enter pvp zone to get those badges. Then when they finally did address it, they had no choice but to nuke it. Enter i13. And by then it was too late and caused much fallout and collateral damage to otherwise innocent parties.
God, please no. While I've no issue per se with a cash shop, and have used the one in Champs and ToR pretty frequently, I don't want to see us sticking functionality in there.
If I am a subscriber- which i plan to be, if this actually gets off the ground- I don't want to have to pay even more just to be able to isolate myself and my friends from trolls and griefers. The cash should be a place for customization items and goodies, not social features of a SOCIAL GAME.
I am [b] not[/b] an altoholic! I can stop whenever I want. No, really...
Yea I vote no to using real money for something like that also. Not all of us are made of cash that we can keep buying those for our weekly CC in order to avoid griefers..
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Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble
Correct. That's why I went with my initial proposal.
1) it doesn't require GM priveliges or resources. There's always something for a GM to do, and staffing events reliably and quickly will take time away from other things.
2) other people using the "public" instances cannot be affected by the administrative powers of people in their own instances\
3) Even if there's a GM available to help them, the feeling of powerlessness- of having to reach out to another party to resolve your issue- is a negative weight on the overall experience. If you change that-- if you let them administrator the access to their own private instance, you've created something very positive and empowering. They themselves get to act on the offender as soon as they want to act. Less negative = more positive experience. More postive experience means community leaders will want to do more of them. Involved community leaders mean a more involved community, and that means they're loyal, happy, and paying customers for a longer time.
:P Never have to deal with that in Conquer CCs (save for the rare Toxie that shows up.. or Shadow Vanguard)
Guess they're all scared of Caliga's Might! *flex*
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Since any instance- even a noncombat small space- is going to require server resources to track and communicate the data, there is a risk to giving just any user the ability to make an instance anytime he likes. Part of the idea of for-fee was to just pare down on the abuse- if there are other ways to assign this as a "perk" that would limit its overuse, I'd be open to the suggestion: a veteran reward? a "event host" badge you earn?
Additionally, this is not a case of "start an instance or fend for yourself in public zones." Just like any other MMO without this feature, if a true griefer comes along and is truly griefing, a GM could be called and could handle it over time. Nothing changes there.
Sometimes, though, GM's will be late-- well after the damage is done to the event. In other times, the "event" could just be a simple roleplaying gathering that's marred by a person that keeps doing his best to impose himself in a situation where he's not wanted. He can legitimately say that he "has as much right as anyone else" to a public space, so getting a GM to take action on that player is going to require some egregious event, and "good" griefers are very good at dancing along that threshold. Being able to withdraw to a more private, player-moderated instance lets players decide who has the right to be there with no "rights" of the griefer being violated.
Yeah I think the idea of a private instance is good but I see some valid points since my last reply.
Real money, I personally wouldn't see no issue with it. Yeah some people are not made of cash, but even if in game money is to be used. Not everyone is made of in game cash either. Or unlock through a drop, not everyone is lucky.
But either way it goes, the problem remains the same of "How to deal with those griefers?" There is the old fashioned way, with simple diligent GMs, but that is ideal and like anything it usually end up far from ideal. GMs usually end up getting there late, for what ever reason from either not being on at the time or busy dealing with other stuff, and by the time they get there, the damage is done.
Another downside to having the private instance though is that for those that cant get it or yet don't have access to it probably will experience increased griefing because then it will be under the guise of "Don't like me griefing, then buy/purchase/obtain the private instance."
Ignore button, sure, quick easy, effortless thing to say for a GM, but closing the eyes do not solve the problem nor do it prevent nor even discourage behavior. In fact in many cases it only encourages it by letting the griefer know nothing is going to happen to him/her and only person affected or actually have to take action is the victim.
With instances added or without, griefers will have to be dealt with when they break the rules. Or why even bother making rules if they cant wont or don't have the man power to enforce them. Anyone can make rules. I can say right now, it's a rule that everyone must send me 1000inf per month when the game go live, but it's meaningless and might as well not even exist if there is no way to enforce that rule. Or in plain simple terms. "What happens if I don't send the 1000inf? Nothing? Well I aint sending it." Same thing with griefers. If there is nothing that happens to them, then there is no incentive for them to stop the behavior. It's about time to stop blaming the victim and leaving it to the victim to ignore them and time for the GMs and or the ones that write the rules get their head out of the sand in these games and lay down the law. Because when a player signs in agreeing to the terms set forth, it's two way. It's an agreement for the player to abide by those rules and an agreement that is the type of environment that will be enforced. Many players keep their end of the bargain, how about those GMs?
When it comes to "fight club" in an open PVP area, if you got banked, it was not griefing. It was an open area, thus you are subject to being attacked by anyone. What I never understood was if you wanted to have a fight club, why not go to the arena, that was what they were for. I have no problems with making private, invite only instances, but I do have a problem with people complaining about being attacked in an open PVP zone.
That can still be a form of griefing. Griefing doesn't mean "breaking the rules." The "best" griefers will stay within the rules, but still harrass, disrupt, and impose themselves in on another person to the absolute best of their ability. The griefer HIDES BEHIND the defense that "this is what the zone is for" or "I have every right to be here.
Fight-clubbing:
I recall an incident in CoH where the sides in Siren's call were clearly outmatched. We had a really good sport on the other side who, after taking a prolonged beating, was showing signs of getting ready to leave, making the sides even more lopsided. Some of us were switching sides to make it less lopsided, but not enough to even the odds.
Someone suggested giving the guy a one-on-one match so he could get a brief feeling of victory without leaving the zone... something to make him feel better after the stomping. They gathered together, circle started, and a lurker none of us had seen to that point that day teleported him out and ganked him the moment his health dropped enough. Explained the issue to the interruptor, and he was apologetic and suggested we try again. He did the same thing, then got argumentative that this was what the zone was for. It went downhill from there. In the end, it drove people from the zone, and he could be heard in zone chat taunting people of his mad pvp skillz "scaring everyone off."
This was someone that pretended to play along just to have the glee of messing the system up-- who pretended to play along just so he could disrupt everyone for the sake of being a disruption. This is the kind of person that make casual PvP'ers just realize it isn't worth the bother, and that eventually makes the PvP zones less populated, and less fun for everyone.
Yes, he had a right to be there. Let him be there. We've since moved away from the idea of 'private full-scale zones" but had there been one, hosted by some player much like the PvP tournaments are hosted by a player, then that player could decide that player X is toxic and push him out of his zone. He can manage the PvP play based on the tone he's trying to set. Heck, if he sided with the antagonist and found the complainers to be too whiney, he could kick them instead. It becomes a method of self-sorting, so the people that like the all-out ruthlessness find each other and stay with each other, and those that want a social PvP session have a chance for that too
indeed
Don't forget "It's only a game."
On the flip side, folks in Tabula Rasa invented "Friday Night Fights", where players would create new characters, get them to level 5 (took a few minutes, and the system prevented further level progression until one chose a class branch), and then everyone took turns doing 1v1 duels with no weapons. All movement and fisticuffs.
It got so popular, the devs whipped up a special boxing ring map just for them.
Griefing's a huge problem, but if you can stop it (by whatever means) PvP gets a lot better.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Agreed. I personally love PvP, but I've seen many instances of how a small group can make zone or world PvP so unappealing that people go do other things, and the zone/server community fragments. Part of the problem is that griefing can be a matter of perspective. I've known sportsmen that were masterful trash talkers-- something that can be vicious fun among other trash talkers but not fun at all to people seeking a "gentleman's game." Likewise, you have very aggressive PvP'ers that like to be cutthroat, no-holds-barred, no-rules-except-for-what-the-game-imposes (but to be honest, I've rarely found them to be in sufficient number to populate a server for any length of time, let alone multiple zones). I see many more excellent PvP'ers that relegate themselves to arena PvP or organized match-ups primarily because it gets them their fun with a good positive dose of social interaction. Since organizers can exclude certain "unpleasant competitors," this gives them a place to play among their own kind.
That's a shame that they have to do this just to avoid the unpleasant element, and its a shame that something like zone PvP becomes so under-utilized because people avoid it. My suggestions for "league PvP" and player-managed instances is ( in part )a way to give players a way to appreciate their kind of PvP while filtering out the unsavory element that woulld normally drive them away.
Yup, nothing wrong with trash talking, it when it become insulting it becomes and issue. Usually those trash talkers don't quit and then the intentions to insult instead of merely soft ribbing trash talking becomes appareant. Especially if the target already let the trash talker know what they said they find offensive. You'd think they lay off after that or say they didn't mean anything by it. Nope, usually they just dig in harder and at that point it goes from mere friendly trash talking to the intentions is to insult people and grief.
While to one person talking about "screwing" someone mom, very common in COX pvp, may be viewed asa joke among many circles and many people may take that as only normal trash talking. Which is fine. But when someone say that they find it insulting, and instead of letting it go, they keep going with it, now knowing it is insulting to that person, then that is nt trash talking or someone being overly sensitive. That is straight up grieifing. Because that person's mom may have died, may have been "screwed against her will" or no telling what the case may be. And that go for any trash talk. When it's known that the target found it offensive, but instead of either trying a different type of trash talk, they go in for the kill to add insult and build upon it, then it's not trash talk anymore. And that is what a lot of "trash-talkers" did in the PVP zone and that is what made it an unpleasant experience.
What makes an trash talker an expert is knowing their target. They may poke and prod but do so without being overtly insulting. ANd if the target is insulted by a statement or method they try something else. And sometimes a player may not be in the mood for trash talk and maybe for that day instead of simply trying to make their game experience a living hell, just back off for once. It's called respect. While not required by the rules, other is trash talking. There is a way to trash talk and be respectful.
And yup it is a dang shame that in order to find piece from these few that whole point is to make everyone pvp experience a living hell, that one may need a private instance. Those people that is out ot make everyone pvp experience a living hell are the ones that should be banned from entering a pvp zone especially if they become repeat offenders (not the super group). Because they are the most detrimental thing to the health of pvp and that as a side effects pve. Because many don't just leave PVP they leave the game especially if the GMs don't care about taking care of the blatant rule breakers, not even talking about the borderline ones, but the ones that usually use lot of insulting that is obviously insulting usually laced with a bunch of profanity and direct name calling that would get someone arrested for disturbing the peace if this was out in the real world public. And yet the GM just say "just ignore them." If that is the case then there is no point in following the rules in PVP zone nor PVE and usually that what end up happening. Ya end up with griefers in PVE zones and they start directly affecting the game there. A problem that gets worse and worse.
While COX became known in 2004 as a relatively friendly community it was never advertised that way, if advertised at all. And by the time PVP came it was a few years in, and soon after that it took a few years before griefers really set in and soon after PVP was all but dead.
This game as CoT have been heavily advertised as being "friendly community". So it will be important for them to ensure they live up to the hype they created or griefers will have a more devastating effect on the game more so then they ever had in COX. Especially with pvp being there from the start.
Pretty much. People like the one described here are the main reason I avoid PvP as a general rule. They may not be the majority of PvPers, but their impact is greater than their numbers and, as Chase says, eventually they drive most others out of the PvP zones.
So, as someone who would be a casual PvPer, I can confirm that the antics of the dedicated a$$es like the one described above have made it so that I'll only PvP in arena-style setups, where I can know the jerks cannot interfere.
As far as trash talk goes, I'd like the ability to simply mute someone, and the ability to see how many have muted them. It could serve as a "troll here" indicator, so people know not to feed them.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
So why not take it to the arena? That is what it was for. Then you do not have to worry about griefers, or people not playing the game by your rules.
So, yes, I support private instances. But if you never went to the arena for private battles, and your fight club got interrupted, that was on you, not the "griefer."
True about arena but in COX it was buggy as hell to the point it was not really a viable alternative.
Now a non-buggy arena, sure.
On the flip side, griefing is usually against the rules anyways. And I'm talking beyond simply interrupting a fight club. So yeah true griefing should be on the griefer even if there is an arena available because that behavior at least in COX wasn't supposed to be allowed according the conduct rules as written.
But arean or not, true griefers do kill pvp in games faster than anything and do tend to run people off with a bad taste for it. Thus, leading to it becoming a mere near forgotten side show.
If private instances cannot be implemented I think an unbuggy spans equal quality to open world PVP arena should suffice to get away from those types. But even then as long as greifers are allowed to grief, then it still will be detrimental to the health to the pvp realm and bad for the health for pve as a side effect.
While it's as simple as people going to the arena it's also should be as simple as people simply not grief and not be allowed to grief.
Probably the ... wisest course ... for implementing PvP in a new game would be to do it as an Arena Only sort of thing to start. The reason I say that is because what you need to do in order to establish a PvP Community is [b]Set The Norms Of Acceptable Behavior[/b] FIRST before opening everything up into Zone PvP or even World PvP. That means that you need to build up a Core PvP Community who "police themselves" with regards to acceptable behavior, and who set the "standards" of how people should treat each other in PvP. Once that PvP Community reaches a certain "critical mass" where the Griefers and Trolls tend to be blacklisted and pushed out, rather than taking over and driving away New Players or turning off Experienced Players ... then, once you've got that PvP Core, you start looking at building a PvP Zone for them ... and if that works out, and the health of the PvP Community is still looking good, then you look towards adding in either other PvP Zones or enabling (optional!) World PvP.
The basic idea here driving all of this is [b]Trust But Verify[/b], because as we have all seen in more than one game, it is not only possible [i]but actually likely[/i] that a PvP Community can turn "toxic" and begin to "devour their own" in a way that essentially amounts to "eating your seed corn" such that the PvP Community withers and dies ... through sheer attrition if nothing else. PvP Communities are also one of the more ... sensitive ... Communities to ANY changes, adjustments and/or tweaks to Game Balance (for what should be obvious reasons), and because of this fact they can also be one of the more ... unstable ... Communities for a game to play host to (ie. the Vote With Your Feet phenomenon, if not the Vote With Your Wallet response). This is why I am firmly of the opinion that if there is to be a PvP aspect to a game at all, it needs to "start small" and GROW from there, so as to "prove itself" both to the Developers but also to the other Players (and prospective Players as well!) before giving PvP a wider "arena" of gameplay to engage in. The interest of the *Developers* should be invested not so much in the "perfection" of PvP ... because, let's face it, that is a fool's errand! ... but rather in the fostering of a [b]"healthy" PvP Community[/b], which will (of course) have a different cast and character to it than the PvE Community, even if only because of the "competitive pressures and spirit" that the PvP Community engenders in its members and adherents.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Exactly.
If people want duels, and the coding allows it, we could spin up a not-too-complex map/instance where team leaders (or just you if you're not on a team) can set up a duel.
In this instance, you can only buff teammates and attack/debuff your dueling opponent(s). Onlookers' buffs/patches/heals/attacks have no affect (because there has been no negotiated duel).
The worst a griefer could do is jump around and be visually annoying. And so, in this type of zone, if you /ignore someone, they become invisible (and their chat, too).
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
FINALLY! Someone understands [b]TIM™ Status[/b] ... also known as [b]T[/b]he [b]I[/b]nvisible [b]M[/b]essage™.
The best way to combat Trolls is to stop "feeding" them so as to let them die of privation/starvation. TIM™ Status doesn't prevent them from saying or doing things ... it just means that other people don't "have to" put up with their nonsense if they don't want to.
In the case of an MMORPG, this simply means removing the offender's avatar from the game [i]for the person who has them on /ignore[/i] and silencing any chat sourcing from the offender when they are on someone's /ignore list. That way you can *ignore* them both in chat and in "person" so as to simply fail to react to anything they do. Lacking the attention they crave, they eventually figure out the Futility of continuing to expend energy/effort on someone who can neither see nor hear them (although some figure this out sooner than others).
Of course, the first iteration of this that I heard of was used as a Forum Moderating Tool used back in the pre-internet days of dial up modems and BBS forums, where people who engaged in what today would be considered "trolling" would be put on TIM™ Status so that they could post all the incriminating evidence they wanted, and only the Sysop and Admins of the board(s) would see it, while the rest of the community didn't have to put up with the nonsense and disruption. It was remarkably effective at culling the m0es and fricks who simply existed to be nuisances.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Side effect: Would the "invisible" effect, just make them effectively transparent, so that they are still in the world, and if collision detection between players was present, they would still be effected...
OR would they be properly intangible, so you could do nothing to effect them?
Ideally, the collision detection would only work one way: If the troll wanted to go somewhere that a player was, they couldn't, but if the player wanted to go somewhere the troll was, the troll would get shoved out of the way. Basically, the troll ceases to have "mass".
Unfortunately, this will tell the smarter ones they've been invis'd, but that's probably okay.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Cool stuff. I like that idea. That way a troll cant troll. There is more ways to troll than simply chat channel and glad the idea that take away their other means is being looked at.
When they cant effect their target at all, then truly their tool is taken care of besides the normal ignore the chat channel or what they say aka plugging up your eyes with your fingers doesn't mean they cant gut punch ya.
So quite concieveably, you have now given the "ignorer" the ability to be able to grief people without reason.
You get pissed off for people spamming whatever... now you get to move them left right and center.
Hell, I could just ignore LOADS of people, and force them around. They cannot do a damn thing about it.
Just a consequence of what you ahve suggested there.
hmmm good point. Why not make them where they cannot interact with each other? The troller cant move the target and the target cant use it as a tool to troll the troller.
I was referring to a GM-imposed (or event leader) ignore. Of course a player ignore can't do that.
So let's see, player-imposed ignores. Well, if you're going to give the PC a "physical mass" in the first place, disallowing WoW-style clipping, then yeah you're stuck because anything you give any player you're automatically giving to the griefers as well.
Best I can think of is giving the players a means to flag harassing players, which brings it to a GM's attention, and the GM can review the last things said by the flagged player as well as the reporter (because yep, the player could be the griefer, too) as well as get a list of who else the player has flagged (might be a pattern), then impose the disappearance if necessary (instead of just blatantly kicking them off the server, in which case they'll alt or something).
This hopefully reduces the likelihood of retaliation by the griefer.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Hope so. But of course that would require actual GM interaction if they have the time or that system would become moot and toothless.
Like it or not, it's impossible to make a system like that work without somebody getting designated as police. And there's no policing system, including self-policing, that can't be exploited by a gang of griefers who know that system.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I think the idea of putting someone on /ignore, and not 'hearing' or seeing them is a good one, as long as the implementation is right. As for "intangible".. make them intangible to each other, period. You can't see, hear or touch them.. they might can see you, but they can't touch you or speak to you. Yes, the barmy git of a troll can walk through his victim, and so now knows he's been /ignored, but *shrugs* let 'em sulk >.>
The only thing I can see that might be 'bad' about this is if that troll follows the victim and griefs by attacking said victim's targets. So.. maybe make them both invisible to each other. The troll sees his victim just up and vanish. Did they log off? Was he 'invisid'? They might have a good idea, but who cares. At least this way, the lil punk is no longer an irritant, and the punk also cannot follow his victim to spread more grief.
I'm in favor of the victim here.. I couldn't give a rat's bottom quarters about how hurt the troll might be 'cause he's all alone and lonely now >.>
And honestly, do you care if that /ignored person never appears again? Would be strange if he wound up in your PuG group, but that's another issue...
Shazam!
*imagines dozens of invisible 'souls' wandering Atlas Park.. they wonder why no one else is playing lately, and they feel soo alone... watching the tumbleweeds roll through the streets... lonely ghosts with no one to grief. Where has all their fun gone? Has everyone /ignored them? Are they doomed to limbo forever? ... so alone.. so lost.. *
*cackles ebilly* No compassion for the compassionless >.>
Shazam!
Of course. Especially self police. I yet to see that one self police system that worked. Not saying it cant work, just haven't seen it.
Usually in the beginning it's good idea then eventually the game mafias start to form and turn it into their own personal weapon and create more issues especially if there is no oversight or oversight that is sleep on the job and push the "just ignore them" text button instead of actually looking into to see what he problem is.
But yeah, there should be something that actually discourage griefers and griefing and in game trolling. Simple written rules doesn't do anything if no one enforce those rules. And then it's only a matter of time before greifers realize that no one is going to even attempt to stop them. But take their target away, they cant see the target and the target don't have to see them, then it's hard to grief an someone they cant target.
But now about if that person on ignore ends up on the same team...That is an interesting thing that could happen. Would the people still be invisible to each other? Or for that moment, the invisible part is over ridden by the "see team mates" function?
Either way, I hope what ever system do not end up being the replacement of actual rule enforcement. If griefers is a rule breaking behavior then who every written the rule should enforce it. If they cant, don't make it against the rule to grief.
The way I'd rig that one is to make it so that it is not possible to Join Team with anyone on your Ignore List. So if someone on the Team is on your Ignore List, the Join Team will fail, but the Team Leader and the Team Joiner will get a message explaining that the Join Failed because of an Ignore List conflict between Players A and B, and who is Ignoring who. So it prevent the situation from happening inadvertently, and informs the relevant parties why the Join Failed so that they can CHOOSE what they want to do about it (if anything).
That ought to rather neatly neutralize that kind of conflict.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I can see it being a problem... especially if there is an LFG setup... some people could end up waiting *forever* to find a team (and that is not necessarily always going to be the one who is on ignore)
I like the idea of essentially "ghosting" someone. Especially if it also makes ME invisible to the griefer. I have another idea. It may sound kind of radical, and I don't know enough about the programming aspects, but here goes:
What about, for lack of a better term, "Trustees". These would be a volunteer pool formed of regular players who would essentially be "on-call" whenever they sign in. Possibly they would have to go through some application process where the devs look at their account to see if anyone's ever flagged them for bad behavior, or something. They have the power to basically shut a person out of the game for 10 minutes. Completely out. That account can't be logged into until the timer runs out.
Here's a scenario:
You're running a nice friendly Costume Contest and some jerk is jumping around, yelling obscenities, the usual. Everybody's put this idiot on Ignore, but he's still setting off AoE's and being generally, purposefully annoying. After you've put them on Ignore, an additional option shows up for "Intervene". When a certain number of these Intervene messages go up, one of the Trustees is notified. (by rotation, or having some kind of Available/Busy status, I dunno) They get a pop-up that shows how many people are already ignoring this clown, and who has sent the "intervene" messages. The Trustee can either pass on it, or take the call. The person that takes the call goes into a "Monitor" status, which marks them as such.
This allows them to be teleported by one of the callers to the trouble spot. They can observe the alleged griefer, perhaps issue a final warning, then if the behavior continues, right-click and "Eject" them for ten minutes. Then be returned to wherever they were.
As a control, the Trustees can't enter Monitor status on their own. It has to be done through the reporting process pop-up. And, they can also be reported for being too over-bearing.(Of course, there's a record of who they ejected, and if they're the only one reporting, well...)
Seems a little complicated, even for me. :) But it would allow us, as players, to start policing our own. I'm sure the "ghosting" would be easier to implement, and I'd be in favor, but I'm one of those that believe "For justice to be done, it must be SEEN to be done."
Good idea especially with some over sight.
Only down side to that I can think of is that then those "trustees" turn it into a popularity contest. They quick to ban someone they dont like for the smallest reasons or get a group of their friends to flag someoen so they can ban them and call it "they were being annoying", but ignore and that no actions when the bad behavior stems from people they like or their own friends. Thus in the end, basically punishing/strong arming the unpopular persons by getting their friends to report them as often as possible so they can activate the ban and basically keep that person out of the game completely for as long as that clique says so while those that are popular get away with proverbial murder.
For example if one person that wasnt liked very much by the trustee and their friends enter the game, they could flag that person out of the blue, and the trustee guy ban them simply because they dont like them over something that is possibly from long time ago. But when one of their own inner circle is acting a fool, all of a sudden, no action is taken or to make it look like they are being "fair" they issue empty warnings to that person.
The idea of allowing the individual player the power to ghost (for themselves only) a griefer... thereby making both the griefer and the victim mutually invisible as far as the game is concerned, I think is the better idea. Oversight assumes there is a GM with time to actually watch over any sort of "trustee", and we all know how that usually works, and besides; GMs are human too, so those 'cliques' can form even with them.
With /ignore being a blanket "You are now dead to me" type thing, no one is really hurt. I'm not sure how the grouping issue would work out, but unless the server is mostly empty, I doubt the griefer and victim would be the only ones seeking a group at any given time.
This method also limits abuse of said ability. After all, the person that goes bananas and 'ghosts' everyone in sight will wind up playing totally solo... I guess that would be fine for the very very antisocial player that really wanted a single player game of City of Titans >.> The simple fix for that is removing people from your /ignore list *shrugs*
Shazam!
I like the idea that ignore makes the other person both invisible, silent, and turns off collision for them.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Unfortunately, this would allow the /ignored to train NPC mobs on you without you even knowing what's causing the NPC behavior. It would work in social spaces, though, and since my "private zone" suggestion was primarly working with these smaller social areas, it could probably be as useful.,
Unless you couldn't "train", period. If a mob aggroes you, and you run off, then that mob will chase YOU.. As for AoE switching mob agro, well there's always a trade off or "price" to anything. Everything has pros and cons. As it sits now; Griefers get away with what they do because the victims have no recourse but to log out/leave the area.
One way to solve the "griefer trained mobs on me situation" is have the mob check. If the AoE is from a character that has the original agro on /ignore, then the mob ignores any and all attacks from the victim, and will 'reset' as normal when the original agro is out of range/dead >.>
Shazam!
To address the original idea: I think the concept of having private intances for PRIVATE events is nice... but it would likely lead to the clique style events. So-and-so is hosting a CC, but doesn't invite YOU because he maybe didn't like something you said to him last week, or read a post in global chat and took a dislike to you.. *shrugs* I have a feeling it would fragment the community rather than help it.
Just my two carrots.
Shazam!
hmmm. Yup.
But also even without private servers it's already usually is like that. Of all the costume contests I went to, never seen one give the reward to their enemy. But seen many cases where they gave the top prize to their SG mate or other known friends Which leaves me thinking of why bother going through all that trouble and not simply give them the prize?
And before someone jump to conclusions, I never participated in one and simply observed Although I was actually part of an SG that did just that. After a while I simply left the group. But each week for the weekly CC they would pre select the winner, usually they went down the SG list each week. And sometimes to make sure someone didn't catch on, they made the chosen winner choose a toon that isn't in the SG. Of course some people complained about it on the forum but as usual no one believed them and passed it off as they were simply sore losers. But they were right, this SG and the other four coalition mate SGs were rigged. But after I left the SG I observed other CCs and many times, every time that SG held an event the SG mates usually got the top three prizes. It was as if they wasn't trying to hide it. No one would believe it anyways. Maybe all of them wasn't rigged and maybe it just so happen that the SG mates always had the best costumes.
But in short, the clique and CC not being included because the people running the thing don't like a person already happened and probably will happen either way. Now, I thin you are spot on as it would give them more power to exercise their dislike and would cause an even greater rift and the formation of cliques vs cliques and don't belong to one, you get it from both sides.
But at the same time, people do need more protection from griefers than the usual lazy GM "just ignore them" if they say anything at all. I think griefers can split and cause rifts in the community faster than cliques although neither are very good for the community as a whole and both can cause great split. And as long as griefersare allowed to run amok as sure as at least a drop of rain within ten years will happen in Seattle, they will ru namok and push the envelope until the community is nothing but a tense no one wants to talk to each other depressing shell of it's former self. Or people who is completely oblivious to griefers playing blame the victim and those that have been the target of griefers going at it, to the griefer's delight.
Well, yeah.. griefers will be griefers.. and cliques are everywhere. Whenever I ran a CC, my main rule was: No SG mates are eligible. I took the same ground a company has to take by law (if I'm not mistaken).. You can't work for Publisher's Clearing House and win their prize (again, if I'm not mistaken). Now, having said that, if an SG mate hopped on another toon, I didn't know about it.. I didn't make it a point to memorize every single alt everyone had lol
Anyhoo.. The idea of /ignore making the griefer and victim both invisible and such to one another sounds about right to me, so long as steps are taken to make sure incidental griefing (i.e.; training mobs) isn't possible.
I couldn't give a frog's gass passer if the griefer is upset because no one can see/hear/touch him/her.. You do the crime, you do the time >.>
Justice.. JUSTICE, I tells ya!!!
"Aww.. why are you sad, Timmy?" ... "Whaaa! Everyone /ignored me!! All I was doing was minding my own business, hopping around this CC and making everyone upset by my AoE stuff!! Stupid jerks! They ruined my fun! Now no one can see me showing my bottom!!" ... "That's alright, Timmy.. go outside and play in traffic until you calm down.. "
>.>
<.<
o.O
Shazam!
Sorry, did i just kill steal from someone who I ignored?
*shrugs*
Does that make me a bad person?
Not at all, if you don't see anyone there, and you attack those mobs that were unattended, then they're fair game. Said invisible person should have thought of that before making an asshat of themselves >.>
I see you as bringing karmic justice to the world *nods sagely*
Shazam!
This would explain why some of the costume contests I participated in seemed to always be won by what I considered to be the Fashion Disasters who were present for the event ... and this was on Virtue.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So if you do it the once its ok.
If you do it repeatedly, it is (in my mind) griefing.
Sure, the guy might well have been an asshat *once*, but does that give you the right be an asshat *permanently* to him?
Oh, and in case you are wondering how something like this can be abused.
1) You find someone killing (or trying to kill mobs)
2) You put them on /ignore.
3) You then proceed to start killing the mobs in the area (better if high level for fast killing speed).
4) To keep tabs on where the person is, you write up a macro that can ignore/unignore someone with button press.
5) Kill mobs, toggling off /ignore as and when needed (range DPS could be handy here)
6) Rinse and repeat, following the person by toggling the ignore as and when needed
WIN! (or GRIEF!)
Instead of a private instance, how about if they had a semi-private instance... anyone is allowed in, but if some significant percentage of the people there reported someone, the game could remove the someone from the semi-private.
Anyway, as for the cliquey folks, they would already have private spaces from which they could omit people they don't like during events they want to hold (SG bases) so eh. It's fine to come up with a guess at a negative way that someone might use something, but I don't think the possibility, in and of itself, is enough. It would have to outweigh the positives.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
hmmm. People would do that too.
Maybe all that is needed is good old fashioned real rule enforcement. Grief, get reported, GM looks at it asap, (not weeks or months later), if it is indeed grieifing then they take action, actual action against the griefer according what is written out in the rules.
When griefers know they are high risk at putting their account and IP at risk, then they will quit, except the most hardened ones that will find a way either way. But hey if a robber wants your car no matter what alarm how many GPS, SOS buttons, locks, and wire redundancies and kill switches, they will get you car. But that doesn't mean you leave the door unlocked and keys in the ignition with a "steal me sign" on the dash (assuming the car is actually wanted by the owner.)
Another thing that blows the whole ignore = invis thing out of the water: pets. It's the same mess Gangrel described, but with power tools.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
You aren't getting something about the whole /ignore invis thing:
You can't see them.. Period.
You can't see them, you can't follow them.
You can't follow them, you can't grief kill their mobs.
Now if you found someone, and decided to grief them, you could, I guess, /ignore them, then kill steal their mobs. But you get one chance, cause I'd imagine they'd put a time limit (i.e.; cooldown) on the /ignore thing. You could /unignore them, but you have that pesky cooldown, so maybe in 5 hours they would become visible again.
So, sure... you got to kill steal from that poor sap.. once. Then.. umm.. where did they go? Are they even still in this general area? Did they go into a mission? (Let's assume, like CoH, streetsweeping isn't super common).
That's another thing.. Kill stealing? O.o They can't enter your mission.. soo.. again? Are you streetsweeping permanently? This is, of course, assuming they do CoT like CoH and have it mostly instanced missions. After all, they DID say it's the spiritual successor to CoH.. so.. with that in mind...
Shazam!
Kill Stealing only works in a system that shares out XP (and Loot) of kills/defeats, without awarding the rewards to only the First Tapping Team (which could be a soloist). So if you Tap a collection of targets first and someone else comes along and wipes them out (for you) ... and the kind of coordination needed to keep "getting there first" so as to Grief anyone else in the area is just a little bit much to keep doing. And that's before throwing in the whole "follow around what you can't see" problem in order to stay one step ahead of someone (anyone) you're trying to Grief.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Well that changes a LOT of stuff (saying that it has a cool down). Guess that means I can't use it to just ignore people briefly to calm down myself.
I know of a LOT of people who have used /ignore to get a quick moments peace/time to calm down etc etc without having to leave a chat channel.
If it has a 5 hour cooldown on using the ignore (or removing it), that is going to be pretty disruptive.
For me, if i *personally* found something like that kind of limitation, I would more than likely just log out of the game and not come back for the day... especially if i knew that I was rash.
Think about ALL of the implications, and how other people have used it.
The reason why I said "this is a way to grief with it" is because I was assuming that it was operating just like how /ignore and /unignore in other MMOs works (well, at least the ones I have played).
Ooops. I ignored the wrong person (a friend), BAH... cant talk or see them for 5 hours.
You're quite right.. I can see an ignore like I've suggested being a problem. However...
They could always add a second type of /ignore.. So.. let's say the first type is what you're used to: You ignore their chat so you can calm down, then you unignore them and wala.. they're available again for arguing.
But let's also say there's a second type... /griefer ...Now let's say that, when you use that particular command, you get a warning dialogue box "Are you SURE you want to do this? REMINDER: There is a 5 hour cooldown timer for this function!"
So.. let's pretend that you have a friend that is being pesky with their unassailable logic: Ok.. you click (quite by mistake *nods*) /griefer. Oooops! Umm.. ok.. dialogue box.. I'll just cover my eyes and click OK. ARRRGH!!! .... So.. 5 hours, eh?
How many times do you think you'd mistakenly type /griefer when you meant /ignore ? o.O I know it would maybe take me once, if that many.
Super and Original Recipie /Ignore.. So you can briefly mute the offending player, or you can "Ghost" them, with a 5 hour handicap.
Shazam!
Oh one problem I can see....
How would the client render for a bystander (who *doesn't* have either person on /griefer), and they are both in the same spot?
Because for them (if the game has collision detection), two people *cannot* be in the same spot. And please note: Collision detection HAS been asked for by the community (in general) so that the game still felt the same as CoX.
Would the client then render them in different locations? If so, how does the server know where the two people are (Seeing as the location for each character is sent by the server).
This is another problem that needs to be solved, before I can (in my mind) say this solution is workable. There might well be other problems that I can come up with... but I can see client/server being more of a limitation than anything else.
My vote is they should clip in that case. That way people see exactly what is going on: one has the other ignored. If that bothers them, they can pick one and ignore them.
The most important thing is that the player should see what the game engine considers "ground truth". And if people ignoring each other can occupy the same space, well, there we are. No "shoving" algorithm is going to get it right in a crowd situation.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
There will always be issues with any idea presented. Some will like it, others will point out possible problems that they see happening.
As far as the clipping situation is concerned with a "ghosted" character occupying the same space.. Yes, I can see that being a little irritating. But to my way of thinking, I'd rather see that, than have the griefer get his way because "All you can do is /ignore.. hah hah!".
Example: Captain Stupendous is throwing a Costume Contest in front of City Hall. Everyone is lined up as usual, but some dweeb named Pay Attention2Me is hopping up and down with his AoE effect, obscuring all the participants. In addition, this person is shouting in local (and maybe even global) how everyone at the contest is somehow related to pond scum (tm).
Everyone in the crowd, including Captain Stupendous, click their /griefer button. Hey, presto! Pay Attention2Me is now a "ghost". No one there can see him or hear him.. and he is suddenly all alone as far as he can tell. Sure, he can keep hopping about making a racket, and anyone new would see him walking through everyone else (I'm pretty sure they'd get the idea of what just happened).
The other option is /ignore. So.. no one can hear him.. but the still see him hopping about and making an asshat of himself by obscuring everyone's costumes.
Shazam!
Never trust what the client sends...
While I agree that /ignore affecting appearance would be problematic in worldspaces, if it worked that way in noncombat social instances, it *might* be as functional as private instances. ... well as long as those private places don't have destroyable elements. Not seeing WHO's breaking the couch you're sitting on isn't great, after all.
You folks that are finding ways to abuse a 'ghosting ignore' are forgetting that I proposed if for a specific thing: a dueling instance. Not for open play. Not for open PvP.
Each environment will need its own griefer tools.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Then let's hope the open play environment has griefer tools greater than "just /ignore them, they'll go away" ~.^
Shazam!
Honestly, I want agressive Enemy AI. It's one of my favorite things about Marvel Heroes. I am all for "stealth" but I can't foresee a time when someone who's ignored aggress a NPC in a public zone that causes me an issue. I'm not just here to look pretty. I'm here to click butt!
While I'm on the subject of Marvel Heroes, I want to praise them on their public zones having open missions that invite multiple players to participate. While the numbers are cumbersome at the easy difficulty.. the later difficulty levels have a really reasonable amount per zone (usually no more than 15). Because the Devs have declared their affinity for instanced maps I hope the public maps have places to congregate not only for Roleplay but also for battles.
Giant Robots rounding up Super-powered DNA? Oh yea! "Unstoppable" Armor guy Robbing a Bank? Oh YEA! A super team of doing a PR stunt? Take em ON! Japanese Water monsters made their way to the Atlantic Ocean and crawling onto the beach through the streets? Not in MY city! Alien Invasion from a Wormhole in the sky?! … [What? Are you implying that these have been done before?]
Open Missions are AWESOME
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Indeed. I hope too.
Yeah, but ... recycling! It would still be a good thing for GMs to have on the open map, at least.
Because they don't. >_<
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
A supergroup base would cover this.
Yeah, TBK had suggested that above. It works for SG events, certainly. It is probably not so great for the classic CC in Atlas kind of scenario.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Allow SG members to invite anyone into the base.
It would, but in limited ways.
And it necessarily means that you have to abandon a nice dev-created environment for a improvised player-created one just because of an unpleasant encounter with others that pay for that dev-created environment.
The goal here was to make the social spaces accessible to everyone, understanding that sometimes there can be conflicts in these spaces that are best resolved by separating the parties.
It doesn't have to be a full-on griefer. I've seen roleplayers taunted... i've sen roleplayers taunt others. I've seen PvP'ers that (legitimately) follow the "if its red, its dead" mentality make it nearly impossible for other PvPers to utilize a zone map for a specific kind of PvP event, whether RP-PvP, pseudo-tournament, or quick grudge match, and i've known "if its red, its dead" PvP'ers that felt he was unfairly vilified for just playing the zone "as the devs intended it." Sometimes, with level heads and lots of time, these misunderstandings can be mitigated and people can eventually get along, but many times the level heads have already been lost and the time that's lost can never be recovered.
And that's not even counting the full-scale intentionally-grief behaviors.
MMO's have long held the delusion that we need to all be in the one egalitarian shared work space, but it isn't that. Its a worldspace that empowers the person that's bent on disrupting. Its one that assures that people with different goals and different interests at different times will be in conflict with one another and the only way to avoid that conflict is for one party or the other to abandon that shared workspace for another. We are going to have instances already, so why not harness that so both people can use the "dance hall" or the "dojo" or the "El Super Taco" restaurant at the same time without conflict? Why make one party abandon a dev-created worldspace?
Indeed.
Using your examples, which use CoH as a reference, that wasn't a failing of a non private area, but a failing on the PvPers.
While I wasn't one to interrupt a duel on purpose (I did a couple of times on accident, because you can't just enter a zone and know "oh, they're trying to duel"), I did laugh at everyone who dueled in a public area when the arena would've covered their private duel needs. Basically, in that instance, it's the duelers being dumb that caused problems, not a non-private zone.
RP wise, some people like to RP jerkfaces (for whatever reason...concept or OOC want to being annoying) much like in RL, if you can't handle someone being a jerk, you have to walk away to a more private area, which SG bases cover.
Won't ever stop griefing in the "RP hot spots" between RPers until all can agree on rules/setting. Using myself as an example, someone RPs a vampire trying to embrace/turn another into a vampire, if I'm in RP mode, I go in to stop it, why wouldn't one try to stop it? :p I've been told that's greifing, but then I wonder, why do it in a public area? :p
Well normally the arena would cover that aspect but lets face it, the arena was bugged to hell and not really considered functional.
It kind of hit me though earlier, if people basically roll over and use the SG bases, or arena, wouldn't that make it look like the community is consisted of a great concentration of jerks, especially once the jerks realize it's up to the victim to take action and they can take over anything simply by being a jerk because it's expected the victim to leave or take it? Either way I'm not sure if the social problem of it with people being jerks especially if it's still within the legal limits of the rules, not sure how to solve that, but in the end, running away, ignoring the problem never makes the problem go away. In fact it only encourage more people to be jerks and asshats which creates more jerks and asshats, because it then become, "hey I don't want that person to play here. I'll go be a jerk to him, and he is supposed to leave if he don't like it." and they go and do it. Then eventually it will be groups hiding out in their SG base just to get some semblance of peace and the jerks running the show. Then new players who dont belong to a group come in, get jumped on, and they leave. Older players get tired of hiding in their SG bases in a game they paid for and a game they probably put in a lot of money into the kickstarter in because some people want to be jerks and asshats and no one have the balls to deal with the problem. Then they leave. Eventually, with everyone either in their SG bases, or other hide out simply because they want some peace, the jerks and asshats will get bored, and some will up their game, and some will simply leave. Then when the game is simply a former shell of it's former self with not many people playing and the rule enforcement get their head out of the sand and finally sweep up the rest, the damage is already done. That is why it's important to deal with it while it's small before it becomes too big to handle. If they are being jerks but within the rules, that ignore feature where you cant see then and they cant see you can work (probably with some tweaking), if they break the rules, don't ignore it, don't run from it, don't try and hide from it, deal with it while it's small. Usually a simple warning works from a mod. If they keep on, then further actions. That let those that break the rules they are not free to run amok and get away with breaking the rules because they simply want to make everyone they come across game experience terrible. PVP, no reason to not havea duel invite feature. or at least a FUNCTIONING arena. Or do like CO Duel anywhere with invite and it's a fight between the two or the team duel invite of the two teams involved. PVP zones, either havea warning in big red letters that PVP zones are exempt from the social rules, meaning no ignoring the crazy behavior of one person because they are popular but when the victim turns the table they run report and here come the mod with the ban hammer all ofa sudden and bring it down on the original victim. But if the rules do apply and it is not written that PVP zones are exempt then there rules should be enforced there just as they are in the PVE zones regardless of their popularity, or who brother they are, or who sister they are. If they break the rules and it's Jeebus himself, then he too should be dealt with just like anyone else. Simply enforcing the rules would dead a lot of the social issues that cant be controlled by mechanics. People shouldnt even have to go to a private instance simply to enjoy some semblance of peace in a game they pay for. It would be a nice feature but when players must go there simply because of jerks, that is a big sign there is problem, a big red flag that something needs to be done for real and there is a big failure in moderation in the game that should be looked at.
Never had a problem with dueling in the arena myself. It wasn't that the arena was bugged, people wanted an audience to watch them, so they thought there should be some sort of rule about "don't enter our fight in this open pvp zone" for that one, it was all on the idiots dueling in an open pvp zone.
The griefing in Pocket D, you're right, one can grief through "RPing" playing the jerk, but then there are those who just so happen to have a RP jerk concept.
By that same stance, maybe get the RP community to actually, you know, RP like it's the area instead of "Oh, this is where everyone is" you know, like how people went about RPing killing others in Pocket D, or using powers (remember, Pocket D lore said powers were nullified).
You think the person being a jerk is griefing. I always thought those who couldn't RP Pocket D as a club according to how it was supposed to be were griefing. So who's to say who's RP isn't right in this situation. Basically, it's something we all have to just live with and put up with.
And that too for some cases. But seen some people and tried some myself, the arena resets, not everyone gets onto the map, or people get sent to different instances even though everyone supposed to be part of the same match, hell even one time we all ended up in the middle of another groups match, talk about awkward, it bugs out, you enter the match immediately ends and end up spawning back into the arena and after a while it's "ah forget it, lets go back to the pvp zone and just duel or else we will never get to fight". And a few days it worked just fine like nothing happened while I see other having trouble with it and vice versa the next day. But more often than not with duelers that actually went to the arena (as I did lot of pvp especially in the early days) the arena was just bugging out to the point it wasn't even worth the trouble especially with no fix around the corner. Did they ever even get around to fixing the arena?
Of course like any bug not every single person will experience. I heard about many bugs in COX that I never even seen in my entire years of tenure there that supposedly existed since i2. Doesn't mean the bug didn't exist.
But people can RP anything. They could RP being a villain that is a creepy chester. Then some just quote on quote RPed a jerk not because of their toon storyline just to use it asa cheap free get out of jail excuse. "Hey I'm just being a jerk because my toon is RPing as one." There is RP and then there is taking it too far. I seen many people RP jerks and got the point across nicely without crossing every line in the book while holding up the cheap excuse of "hey I'm RPing a jerk." Because if that was the case then people can RP anything. Maybe they RP a toon that hacks into your computer for revenge and steal your money. "Hey they are RPing a villain". Should that be a free "Oh ok, since he was RPing a villain, that is ok. STop complaining about people stealing you money. His RP is to get revenge and hack you computer and bank account. Don't like it, leave."
The thing about Pocket D, that was one RP setting, and really the only RP setting most cold go or else, as people been saying, "If ya want to RP, go to Pocket D," Now it's that they are not RPing to Pocket D lore when they do mostly RP in that Pocket D sspace. Well hell, then, either let them RP everywhere or designate an unofficial area for RP. Sounds like many people are being jerks just to be jerks.
Buti one thing for certain is though is who is really to say outside the stated rules, and I don't think the rules stated that griefing is ok as long as it's RP, and there is a difference between a jerk and a griefer although they can be both but they are not always both, which is the right way and wrong way. Thus which means that it is not solely on the victim to accommodate the jerk or griefer but also the jerk and griefer is also suppose to accommodate the victim. And if the griefer cannot do that then it cannot be expected that the victim should be expected to accommodate the jerk and griefer. It works both ways.
Definition of greifer REAL DEFINITION-A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who DELIBERATELY IRRITATES and HARASSES other players within the game
If that's the definition, then those people not sticking to Pocket D lore WERE TOTALLY GRIEFING ME! :o
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