OathboundOne wrote:

As someone who's always had abhorrent luck with RNGesus, I "would be very unhappy" with a system like this. Putting it kindly.

Overwhelmingly I feel like the numbers should always be set, and known, allowing a player to plan out and work towards the goal they have in mind without the need to "get lucky" just for it to work.

This also creates a terrible feel bad scenario where you [i]finally[/i] get that uber-rare drop.... only for it to have terrible stat distribution that makes it "worthless."

+1

A little RNG is okay- it's what MMOs live on. Too much is bad.
Look at how terrible current Wow is vs classic and the first couple expansions.

Tannim222 wrote:

It might help to u sweet and the current system and use the appropriate terminology.

We have no TO - DO - SOs. We have Basic Augments, then common, uncommon, rare, and very rare crafted Augments and Refinements.

Basic Augs go by level of the Aug to determine their functionality compaired to your character’s actual level. They do not have any Ref sockets.

Augments always improve the effect of s power on the target. Refs improve how well the power functions for the user.

You won’t have an Aug that provides bonuses to accuracy as Accuracy is a Ref.

For obtaining smaller bonuses to a power, we would delve into crafted sets with set bonuses.

Have all 3 of the Aug set slotted into a power get a bonus of x.
Or, have a very rare set Aug with 3 very rare set Refs socketed into it, get a bonus of x, y, z.
Have 4 of those sets all socketed into a power get AA as well.

Those are the range of possibilities for sets. Now I had considered an RNG element to set bonuses. But I won’t do it if it proves to just end up being a way of creating an arbitrary Igc sink (crafting already acts as a sink). Making moreso of a sink just get to get the best bonus would just be annoying for players.

If there were a player input element that went I to craftting - making crafting a game in of itself is also a consideration. Where not playing the game gives a fixed value, but playing it can improve those values.

The problem there is what will happen over time players who don’t play the crafting game will be “doing it wrong” as far as the market will be concerned. Not playing would only be useful for people who just want the standard bonuses for their own character and aren’t concerned with min-maxing.

What it comes down to is making more of an igc sink to keep “rerolling” for bonuses, having an interactive element for bonuses, or possibly either / or, or none and don’t do it.

When we get to implementing the more advanced crafting with set bonuses, testing will tell which seems to work, what seems fun, and of course, what is healthiest for the game since this would impact the economy.

Ultimately, what I’d like to see is some form of optional interactive element to crafting. Which has to have some meaning for doing so over the non-interactive version. Whether that is for better bonuses, or reducing crafting time (which means making crafting rarer sets would have to have a longer time element involved for completion), is up in the air.

I'm not 100% updated, was there a video or update about crafting? And thanks the heads up :)

StellarAgent is correct. There are no updates / vids on crafting.

There is quite a bit we have to work out for our crafting system to be “complete”.

There was an update on Augments and Refinements though.

Soulwind wrote:

I have to say that I just can't seem to wrap my head around the whole Augments/Refinements explanations. It's OK though, sometimes I'm dense. I'm sure it will make sense once I actually see it in action.

Frankly even after years of those things being talked about here on these forums I feel I probably still only have like a 50% understanding of how it'll work.

But then again I haven't put that much mental effort into it thus far either because it's really the kind of thing that'll likely A) become fairly obvious once we've actually PLAYED the game for a few hours and B) is likely going to change/evolve so much between pre-alpha and final launch that there's little point in becoming a "subject matter expert" at it now.

Basically I'll figure it out when it finally matters. ;)

StellarAgent wrote:

For the most part Augments = TO/DO/SO.

Refinements are the new twist on it all. There we get to play with minor tweaks. The secondary attributes of a power are somewhat modifiable.

Yeah I gathered that much. I assume Soulwind did too. Again I'll worry about the fine details once we have a game to play.

P.S. I understood more or less how things worked in CoH but that didn't stop me from spending hours with the Mids' planner. ;)

Tannim222 wrote:

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.

Chess is a relatively easy game to learn. Doesn't mean it's an easy game to master.

My point is that I'm reasonably sure most of us understand the basic definitions of these currently abstract things as given. Mastering the fine details won't come until ALL of us are actually playing the game. Remember most of us on these forums don't have the same "ready access" to the game that you currently enjoy. It might be too easy for you to take these things as completely blasé because you've been uniquely knee-deep in the details for years. ;)

blacke4dawn wrote:

Lothic wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.

Chess is a relatively easy game to learn. Doesn't mean it's an easy game to master.

My point is that I'm reasonably sure most of us understand the basic definitions of these currently abstract things as given. Mastering the fine details won't come until ALL of us are actually playing the game. Remember most of us on these forums don't have the same "ready access" to the game that you currently enjoy. It might be too easy for you to take these things as completely blasé because you've been uniquely knee-deep in the details for years. ;)

I have to agree, I think most are fully clear on the basic mechanics/concepts of augments and refinements, i'ts the little details that only hands-on experience gives that is lacking.

My intent was to help Soulwind who indicated he/ she had a difficulty grasping the concept.

Of course this would be useless information for those that do grasp it. It want intended to impart the ability to impart the familiarity I have with it.

I'd rather not have such important things, augments and refinements, hidden behind things that require someone to play the game against how they want to play. Badges, sure. But useful crafting things stuck behind specific tf's or that require badges I am against that idea. I couldn't care less about badges and I dont raid in games so if theres an item that is craftable that I want I really dont want to have to go grind away in the 2 things I don't care for.

This is only for, as I said, useful in-game things like refinements. Theres no problem with locking badges behind tf's or even requiring other badges as they arent useful in-game.

Tannim222 wrote:

Intact it’s doubvlifn down on the basic game play went. - combat - in order to get things needed for crafting and in diet to aid the crafting of the things you got.

Sorry I cant understand this.

yeah i've filed aug/ref into "it'll be better than CoH but I'll have to see it to get it :p "

I accept that augments and/or refinements will be acquired in some manner (MWM has not outlined this process yet). If the system is RNG based, I would like some process to be made available to skew the RNG towards (or away) from selected result(s) to make the path to upgrading less bumpy.

Essentially I am asking to make the hunting/gathering of materials or the actual augments/refinements a slightly more focused effort if the player chooses. If I have a glass cannon blaster, I have already accepted that I am paper thin on the defensive aspects, so I would prefer to get +Defense drops/rewards less frequently. I realize that the upgrading path will probably be a gradual process. What I do not want is a giant RNG grind-fest to maybe get something I want as an upgrade. Grinding to grind can be fun when you choose to do it. Being encouraged to endlessly grind to be effective by whatever standard saps the fun out of playing the game.

If there HAS TO BE any kind of RNG element involved in crafting, I for one would vastly prefer it to only involve the time it takes to craft The Thing™ rather than in any way affecting the modifiers offered by The Thing™ itself. That way all crafting results are the same, but how long it takes to craft those results can vary.

That's as close as I'd want to get to any RNG element in crafting. Keep the results uniform but the crafting time to make them can vary.

Personally I’m not a big fan of the crafting aspects as they were in COH, nor most games I’ve played. It’s just not a fun part of gaming to me. Always turns into work rather than play...

Ngl I would love a forging, tinkering, magic crafting, writing, or something like that mini-game.

Kinda like in The Old City where while crafting IOs you'd mess with a generic blue cube, which was great if you're a tech guy. This could be taken further if you're a mage crafting some relic or a smith of sorts.

Basically custom crafting animations :p

LOVELY! :)

The auction house exists because not everyone wants to bother with crafting but wants to gain the benefits of crafting. You don’t need RNG results to have an economy.

Tannim222 wrote:

Oh I want to have custom crafting tables (for bases) and animations for wherever you craft.

One alternative "crafting" method that I can envision is that different Contacts can craft different stuff for you ... just hand over the materials (including IGC) and "come back later" to pick up the finished product(s). That way, rather than it being your PC (only) doing the crafting, you rely on your Contacts to get the work done for you while you go beat up bad/good guys. Simply assign a countdown that runs on real time (rather than time logged in) so that you can load up a Contact with an "assignment" ... log out ... log in later and pick up the finished stuff(s) after the countdown has run its course. Essentially you "outsource" your crafting to the NPCs of the game who "know you" and you've done good work for in the past (so they'll owe you favors and whatnot).

Note that such a system would even allow for a sliding scale (possibly even incorporating a slider UI element) for how FAST you want the crafting to be finished, with faster being more costly in IGC, as a way to sink IGC out of the economy. You could do anything from 1 minute to 1 week per item to craft, with the minimum time being ridiculously expensive, and the maximum time being so dirt cheap as to be practically free (or possibly even actually free as in zero IGC cost).

The downside to such a system is that rather than going to a single centralized Crafting Table to do everything, instead you need to hit up the different Contacts you've collected over your crime fighting/doing career in order to get the different "stuffs" that can be crafted. The upside to such a system is that this gives people a motivation to "keep in touch with" and remember their old Contacts, and can even promote having PCs "circulate" around the game world, rather than staying parked all the time in a single central "hub" location where all the services are mere steps away (and you never need to leave the building).

Redlynne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

Oh I want to have custom crafting tables (for bases) and animations for wherever you craft.

One alternative "crafting" method that I can envision is that different Contacts can craft different stuff for you ... just hand over the materials (including IGC) and "come back later" to pick up the finished product(s). That way, rather than it being your PC (only) doing the crafting, you rely on your Contacts to get the work done for you while you go beat up bad/good guys. Simply assign a countdown that runs on real time (rather than time logged in) so that you can load up a Contact with an "assignment" ... log out ... log in later and pick up the finished stuff(s) after the countdown has run its course. Essentially you "outsource" your crafting to the NPCs of the game who "know you" and you've done good work for in the past (so they'll owe you favors and whatnot).

Note that such a system would even allow for a sliding scale (possibly even incorporating a slider UI element) for how FAST you want the crafting to be finished, with faster being more costly in IGC, as a way to sink IGC out of the economy. You could do anything from 1 minute to 1 week per item to craft, with the minimum time being ridiculously expensive, and the maximum time being so dirt cheap as to be practically free (or possibly even actually free as in zero IGC cost).

The downside to such a system is that rather than going to a single centralized Crafting Table to do everything, instead you need to hit up the different Contacts you've collected over your crime fighting/doing career in order to get the different "stuffs" that can be crafted. The upside to such a system is that this gives people a motivation to "keep in touch with" and remember their old Contacts, and can even promote having PCs "circulate" around the game world, rather than staying parked all the time in a single central "hub" location where all the services are mere steps away (and you never need to leave the building).

Interesting as that is, youbhave to understand the context of what else crafting entails that hasn’t been publically explaine yet. We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such.

We could cut out the crafting table and use a contact but you also lose out on another tengental system: it also further removes the player from any possible interactive elements, making seem like crafting ends up feeling like a series of fetch quests for the NPC for the player to gain the reward.

Redlynne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

Interesting as that is, you have to understand the context of what else crafting entails that hasn’t been publicly explained yet.

Wait ... you're holding me accountable for information I don't have, which hasn't been released yet, because it hasn't been explained ... and it's my fault that I don't know what you know, so I'm just wrong, is that it?

Um ...

Not at all. I was simply trying to indicate that because you don't know more about the system that your idea doesn't exactly mesh with it. But I did state that we could change our current system to use your idea...

Redlynne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such.

That's nice.
Ever had any second thoughts about the wisdom of that choice? Analyzed any alternatives to it? Entertained any proposals?

Yes. Yes. Yes again. And after all that, a final system was decided upon and a design goal set.

Redlynne wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

We could cut out the crafting table

Um ... that's not what I proposed.
I specifically used the word "alternative" in what I wrote.
You're talking about a replacement.
I wasn't.

Your turn.

I was offering how we could use your idea into our current system.

Your turn, my turn, the world turns.

Radiac wrote:

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me.

I think it if you described what sort of economy you would like to see in CoT (and how you envision leveraging it), that might make it easier for people to understand why you want a prominent RNG factor involved in the game. Tell us what makes RNG fun for you and how it can make the game play experience better for the player base.

Radiac wrote:

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me. The more people advocate for less randomness, the less necessary any sort of player-to-play economy becomes. All that particular subsystem is intended to do is get the items that fall at random into the hands of those that want them. If we can all just craft exactly what we want, player-to-player economy is not necessary.

More randomness = more commerce. More tailored crafting = more people turtling up and just satisfying their own needs on their own with little or no interaction with the game economy.

My experience is different.

There are still people who don't want to bother with crafting at all and just wants to buy it, and there are people who don't always have the time to craft and would at least occasionally buy. Then there are of course the people who love crafting an makes as big of a part as they can in the game they are playing. But regardless of, ime, there has always been a market for crafting materials.

What I hate more in crafting, and a thing that I believe is "limiting" a market much more than tailored crafting, is making the high-end crafted items "soulbound on acquire". That removes items from the high-end market and relegates it to crafting materials only, and in many cases only the more basic (even though high-end) crafting materials.

Quote:

I would also remind people who said "Don't make us do specific content for specific rewards" that CoX had that. You only got HamiO's from Hamidon raids, for instance. Later, you could get Synthetic HamiOs from the Statesman TF. What I was talking about was something more like "if you want a specific Unique or Purple type Enhancer, you have to craft it by doing X Y and Z badge runs successfully". Any of that could be soloable content, for instance, so no need to do a TF per se, unless it happens to be required by the item itself. [b]And as long as there's an auction house, you don't have to do that content yourself, you can pay someone else for theirs.[/b] Those people who like doing badge runs of TFs might make a point of manufacturing such items to the point that prices might be somewhat reasonable even. Whereas the dedicated soloists might like to do some of the ones that require that. I, for one, am unlikely to do any PVP for making gear, but I'd buy it from PvPers while making my own TF or solo based stuff to sell to them, for example. So instead of "forcing people to play the game in ways they don't like" you're actually making every play style lucrative but not necessarily independently wealthy, so we all still have to trade with each other, which is what the auction house system is for.

That is not what you said in the [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/164726#comment-164726]previous post[/url].
[i]Like, if you do a TF run and qualify for a badge of some kind (even if you already actually have the badge), you get some additional benefit added to the Augment you're making. OR, you could have it set up so that the Augment isn't actually done until you get several badges (or requalify for them)?[/i]
That to me (and I guess most others) is that it's the act of getting/qualifying the badge itself, and not a tradeable ingredient, that drives the final result or the crafting progress as a whole.

However, regardless of which you actually meant it still has the "condition" of needing to do very specific things to get a specific result. Yes, CoH had it but that doesn't mean CoT has to have it as well. I think that every drop should have at least two ways of getting it (AH doesn't really count) with one preferably being solo friendly.

Quote:

As far any sort of crafting sub-game goes, Tannim, if this is some kind of "solve a rubik's cube = get an Augment" type of thing, that's fine, but it will require some kind of coding up to make it compelling and fun, [b]and the game is not supposed to be about sitting in your lair and making widgets all day,[/b] it's supposed to be an RPG where you fight crime or try to take over the world or something. If you really want to go over the top, you could make the crafting game basic algebra. Solve for x or factor the quadratic expression and get an Augment. Then for the really rare stuff you throw like a hyperbolic conic section at people and see if anyone remembers how to complete the square. I'd love to see that.

Right, MWM shouldn't make that necessary but on the other hand why should they effectively remove that possibility for those players who really enjoy that aspect of games?

Also, a thing from the previous post I just had to comment on specifically:

Quote:

Lastly, [b]I think the best system is one which creates a ton of unwanted items[/b] and a ton of IGC then causes you to annihilate BOTH in the process of making the high item you actually want, with that item having a very high rarity on its own. This could mean collecting hundreds of low rarity items and then paying IGC to annihilate them (and the IGC) in order to make an item. BUT, idf the item were a RNG drop instead of a given specific item, maybe to can make those cheaper, albeit with a high chance of getting something you don't actually need.

Even when the majority are unwanted by everyone?
A system that is effectively designed for you to churn out item after item after item and then either turn to the AH to get what you actually want or settle for a sub-par one is not something people will look forward to using.

Hero_Zero wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:

...We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such...

When I read this I presumed it was to increase social interaction. With that in mind I began to wonder if the crafting system will ever require collaboration. For instance if you want to craft something with healing effects you must have assistance from someone with healing abilities. Perhaps a given crafting item requires a team of people. I'm reminded of about a million movies where a bunch of bad guys get around a pentagram to cast a spell or enchant something or create the ultimate weapon or whatever. I imagine such a system could be intertwined with badges. It could even allow financial compensation for providing assistance.

Anyway, just an idea. Perhaps something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch.

[EDIT: for spelling]

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

I have nothing against your specific crafting suggestion in this post - in fact it sounds pretty interesting.

But TBH I'm mainly responding to you because of your use of the phrase "something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch". I actually got a good laugh out of that for a purely unrelated reason based on its near word-for-word use by a Dev in another recent thread. Thanks. :)

desviper wrote:

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

My first thought on this was, "But August was months ago!" ^_^

My second was "I hope we don't have to wait till next August to learn how augments - oh, that's what was meant."

Tannim222 wrote:

Instead of just “click and watch progress bar”, I’d like a more optional interactive element. Most likely it would be some form of mini-game and it could be done in such a way to set up multiple items to be crafted “at once” and then do the interactive thing to reduce time involved. Or do interactive thing for random element bonus instead paying extra cost / time to get better random bonus.

Yes. Please.

Also, in furtherance of "Red's ideas" ... ^_~

Let's say (just for the sake of argument and illustration purposes) that you have different OPTIONS for where to go to get your crafting done. You can go to:
[list=1][*]Crafting Tables
[*]Old Contacts[/list]
Now, if you go to a Crafting Table to do your crafting, that will be the Quick+Expensive option for getting your crafting done (Time is IGC and all that) ... but if you go to one of your Old Contacts to get the crafting done it'll take (a lot) longer to finish, but it'll be a lot cheaper/less costly to get the crafting done that way, so you wind up with a Slow+Cheap(er) option for getting your crafting done.

And at that point, it becomes a question of "What Is More Important To You [i]As A Player?[/i]" for what you're willing to spend, and what you're wanting to conserve, in order to get your crafting results.
Do you need that item crafted RIGHT NOW ... or can you wait a day (or few) for it to be made more cheaply?
Depending on the circumstances [i]of the Player[/i], the answer to that question can easily change.

Point being that rather than a One Size Fits All solution to the question of how crafting gets "executed" within the game, instead you have OPTIONS ... and different people can play "their" crafting game however they want to play, which kinda sorta ought to be the point, no?
The two options aren't directly in competition with each other (per se), but are rather alternative routes for achieving what are essentially identical outcomes. No matter which method you choose, the results will be the same. The items that result from crafting aren't any different ... merely the "means" to do the crafting in the first place changes.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other (and all that).

Just a thought.

Agreed. I always thought crafted gear should be as good as the best gear.

Or, make all gear craftable and the items you find are crafting items.

I have somewhat skimmed the last half of this thread. But "red's idea" did spark a little thought in my mind. I don't actually play elite dangerous but in that game I understand that in order to craft certain items you have to make friends with NPCs that are capable of teaching you that skill or selling you that item. Spin that a little bit with radiac and red's idea. If you have a contact that is a techno wizard of some sort. And you need something built. You give him the schematic and parts for what you need and he says. "Sure I can build it, but I need to do something for me." So you run what effectively is a tip mission and come back when finished and he hands you whatever you asked him to make. In order to speed up the crafting process you run the mission faster. So the crafting process doubles down on the combat aspect of game play. Or if for whatever reason you can't finish the mission or don't want to you allow the timer to expire and get your item.

desviper wrote:

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

I agree :)
with some final picture of the augments and refinement icons :p

You mean final alpha icons? I'm sure nearly everything about the game will continually be tweaked until Issue 1. They probably dont want us thinking anything we've seen so far is final final.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

Except the electrons currently flowing across the silicon substrate, and they aren't exactly "set", now are they?

StellarAgent wrote:

Seschat wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

Except the electrons currently flowing across the silicon substrate, and they aren't exactly "set", now are they?

Trapped (supposedly), but definitely not "set".

At that level of resolution though, the tech to "see" it actually causes other issues and problems.

I'm Uncertain about whether improving the tech will help with those problems. ^_^