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RNG Augment and Refinement stats

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Radiac
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RNG Augment and Refinement stats

What if the Enhancers we used in the game had an element of randomness to them when they dropped?

So like, imagine something like the old CoX Training/Double/Single Enhancements, except that the Trainings always give you a totally predictable, and meager, stat bump to whatever stat they affect (i.e. +3% Damage, etc), then maybe the DO does that for two stats (so +5% Dam and +5% Range) but the SO, which buffs three things has variable numbers that are rolled for every time you get one. So this time you might get an SO that gives +10% Damage, +7% Range and +6% Endo Reduction, but the next one you get might give +8% Endo Redux, +8% Recharge Rate, and +9% Accuracy, ect.

Very Rares might have better numbers, or have some way that you, the user, could select that they do when you get them, making them a much-desired wildcard type deal.

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As someone who's always had

As someone who's always had abhorrent luck with RNGesus, I "would be very unhappy" with a system like this. Putting it kindly.

Overwhelmingly I feel like the numbers should always be set, and known, allowing a player to plan out and work towards the goal they have in mind without the need to "get lucky" just for it to work.

This also creates a terrible feel bad scenario where you finally get that uber-rare drop.... only for it to have terrible stat distribution that makes it "worthless."

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

As someone who's always had abhorrent luck with RNGesus, I "would be very unhappy" with a system like this. Putting it kindly.

Overwhelmingly I feel like the numbers should always be set, and known, allowing a player to plan out and work towards the goal they have in mind without the need to "get lucky" just for it to work.

This also creates a terrible feel bad scenario where you finally get that uber-rare drop.... only for it to have terrible stat distribution that makes it "worthless."

+1

A little RNG is okay- it's what MMOs live on. Too much is bad.
Look at how terrible current Wow is vs classic and the first couple expansions.

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This kind of RNG will make it

This kind of RNG will make it very hard, and most likely frustrating, to even make a half-optimized build let alone a fully optimized one. In these kinds of games where end-game doesn't revolve that much around "gear" I feel that RNG should only be used to decide what drops, not what is on the item that drops.

I don't want this to turn into a Diablo-esque gear grind since you can't be sure what stats you get on the items.

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Okay, but bear in mind, in

Okay, but bear in mind, in the system I'd envision, the rarer Enhancements would always be strictly better than the more common ones. Just for the sake of argument, and hard numbers, say trainings would get you +3% to a single stat, DO's would give +5% to each of two stats, and SO's would give numbers in a range from say +6% to +10% to each of three stats. And the Very Rares would, possibly, have a wildcard part that could be set by the user upon slotting, plus perhaps a proc or other nice perk.

Also, there's an auction house. So the rarely-seen random "+10% Damage, +10% Accuracy +10% Recharge" SO would be quite the pricey item, one would expect.

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It might help to u sweet and

It might help to u sweet and the current system and use the appropriate terminology.

We have no TO - DO - SOs. We have Basic Augments, then common, uncommon, rare, and very rare crafted Augments and Refinements.

Basic Augs go by level of the Aug to determine their functionality compaired to your character’s actual level. They do not have any Ref sockets.

Augments always improve the effect of s power on the target. Refs improve how well the power functions for the user.

You won’t have an Aug that provides bonuses to accuracy as Accuracy is a Ref.

For obtaining smaller bonuses to a power, we would delve into crafted sets with set bonuses.

Have all 3 of the Aug set slotted into a power get a bonus of x.
Or, have a very rare set Aug with 3 very rare set Refs socketed into it, get a bonus of x, y, z.
Have 4 of those sets all socketed into a power get AA as well.

Those are the range of possibilities for sets. Now I had considered an RNG element to set bonuses. But I won’t do it if it proves to just end up being a way of creating an arbitrary Igc sink (crafting already acts as a sink). Making moreso of a sink just get to get the best bonus would just be annoying for players.

If there were a player input element that went I to craftting - making crafting a game in of itself is also a consideration. Where not playing the game gives a fixed value, but playing it can improve those values.

The problem there is what will happen over time players who don’t play the crafting game will be “doing it wrong” as far as the market will be concerned. Not playing would only be useful for people who just want the standard bonuses for their own character and aren’t concerned with min-maxing.

What it comes down to is making more of an igc sink to keep “rerolling” for bonuses, having an interactive element for bonuses, or possibly either / or, or none and don’t do it.

When we get to implementing the more advanced crafting with set bonuses, testing will tell which seems to work, what seems fun, and of course, what is healthiest for the game since this would impact the economy.

Ultimately, what I’d like to see is some form of optional interactive element to crafting. Which has to have some meaning for doing so over the non-interactive version. Whether that is for better bonuses, or reducing crafting time (which means making crafting rarer sets would have to have a longer time element involved for completion), is up in the air.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It might help to u sweet and the current system and use the appropriate terminology.

We have no TO - DO - SOs. We have Basic Augments, then common, uncommon, rare, and very rare crafted Augments and Refinements.

Basic Augs go by level of the Aug to determine their functionality compaired to your character’s actual level. They do not have any Ref sockets.

Augments always improve the effect of s power on the target. Refs improve how well the power functions for the user.

You won’t have an Aug that provides bonuses to accuracy as Accuracy is a Ref.

For obtaining smaller bonuses to a power, we would delve into crafted sets with set bonuses.

Have all 3 of the Aug set slotted into a power get a bonus of x.
Or, have a very rare set Aug with 3 very rare set Refs socketed into it, get a bonus of x, y, z.
Have 4 of those sets all socketed into a power get AA as well.

Those are the range of possibilities for sets. Now I had considered an RNG element to set bonuses. But I won’t do it if it proves to just end up being a way of creating an arbitrary Igc sink (crafting already acts as a sink). Making moreso of a sink just get to get the best bonus would just be annoying for players.

If there were a player input element that went I to craftting - making crafting a game in of itself is also a consideration. Where not playing the game gives a fixed value, but playing it can improve those values.

The problem there is what will happen over time players who don’t play the crafting game will be “doing it wrong” as far as the market will be concerned. Not playing would only be useful for people who just want the standard bonuses for their own character and aren’t concerned with min-maxing.

What it comes down to is making more of an igc sink to keep “rerolling” for bonuses, having an interactive element for bonuses, or possibly either / or, or none and don’t do it.

When we get to implementing the more advanced crafting with set bonuses, testing will tell which seems to work, what seems fun, and of course, what is healthiest for the game since this would impact the economy.

Ultimately, what I’d like to see is some form of optional interactive element to crafting. Which has to have some meaning for doing so over the non-interactive version. Whether that is for better bonuses, or reducing crafting time (which means making crafting rarer sets would have to have a longer time element involved for completion), is up in the air.

I'm not 100% updated, was there a video or update about crafting? And thanks the heads up :)

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No videos as the crafting

No videos as the crafting system is probably still being played with internally to find a playable system that they think will be "fun" as well as useful.

Crafting is one of those double edged systems that can break as game as quickly as it can bolster one.

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StellarAgent is correct.

StellarAgent is correct. There are no updates / vids on crafting.

There is quite a bit we have to work out for our crafting system to be “complete”.

There was an update on Augments and Refinements though.


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I have to say that I just can

I have to say that I just can't seem to wrap my head around the whole Augments/Refinements explanations. It's OK though, sometimes I'm dense. I'm sure it will make sense once I actually see it in action.

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Soulwind wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

I have to say that I just can't seem to wrap my head around the whole Augments/Refinements explanations. It's OK though, sometimes I'm dense. I'm sure it will make sense once I actually see it in action.

Frankly even after years of those things being talked about here on these forums I feel I probably still only have like a 50% understanding of how it'll work.

But then again I haven't put that much mental effort into it thus far either because it's really the kind of thing that'll likely A) become fairly obvious once we've actually PLAYED the game for a few hours and B) is likely going to change/evolve so much between pre-alpha and final launch that there's little point in becoming a "subject matter expert" at it now.

Basically I'll figure it out when it finally matters. ;)

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For the most part Augments =

For the most part Augments = TO/DO/SO.

Refinements are the new twist on it all. There we get to play with minor tweaks. The secondary attributes of a power are somewhat modifiable.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

For the most part Augments = TO/DO/SO.

Refinements are the new twist on it all. There we get to play with minor tweaks. The secondary attributes of a power are somewhat modifiable.

Yeah I gathered that much. I assume Soulwind did too. Again I'll worry about the fine details once we have a game to play.

P.S. I understood more or less how things worked in CoH but that didn't stop me from spending hours with the Mids' planner. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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The simplest explanation I

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.

Chess is a relatively easy game to learn. Doesn't mean it's an easy game to master.

My point is that I'm reasonably sure most of us understand the basic definitions of these currently abstract things as given. Mastering the fine details won't come until ALL of us are actually playing the game. Remember most of us on these forums don't have the same "ready access" to the game that you currently enjoy. It might be too easy for you to take these things as completely blasé because you've been uniquely knee-deep in the details for years. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.

Chess is a relatively easy game to learn. Doesn't mean it's an easy game to master.

My point is that I'm reasonably sure most of us understand the basic definitions of these currently abstract things as given. Mastering the fine details won't come until ALL of us are actually playing the game. Remember most of us on these forums don't have the same "ready access" to the game that you currently enjoy. It might be too easy for you to take these things as completely blasé because you've been uniquely knee-deep in the details for years. ;)

I have to agree, I think most are fully clear on the basic mechanics/concepts of augments and refinements, i'ts the little details that only hands-on experience gives that is lacking.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The simplest explanation I can provide is:

Augments: improves the effect it has on the target
Refinements: improves how how the power functions for the user.

Chess is a relatively easy game to learn. Doesn't mean it's an easy game to master.

My point is that I'm reasonably sure most of us understand the basic definitions of these currently abstract things as given. Mastering the fine details won't come until ALL of us are actually playing the game. Remember most of us on these forums don't have the same "ready access" to the game that you currently enjoy. It might be too easy for you to take these things as completely blasé because you've been uniquely knee-deep in the details for years. ;)

I have to agree, I think most are fully clear on the basic mechanics/concepts of augments and refinements, i'ts the little details that only hands-on experience gives that is lacking.

My intent was to help Soulwind who indicated he/ she had a difficulty grasping the concept.

Of course this would be useless information for those that do grasp it. It want intended to impart the ability to impart the familiarity I have with it.


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Here's an idea for the

Here's an idea for the "skilled crafting" Tannim, what if you could set up an Augment/Refinement ahead of time, then while you're away from your lair or whatever, the missions etc you do while the Augment is "in the oven" have an effect on the properties of the item in some way. Like, if you do a TF run and qualify for a badge of some kind (even if you already actually have the badge), you get some additional benefit added to the Augment you're making. OR, you could have it set up so that the Augment isn't actually done until you get several badges (or requalify for them)? Like in order to make the superawesome Augment you want, not only do you have to have the right crafting workbench and IGC and component items, you also have to go and do a bunch of missions etc and successfully do badge-worthy runs at them. Possibly in a given order.

Also, any amount of randomization added to to item itself allows for a TON more variability among the items themselves, and it could just be "you get a randomized perk" as opposed to NOT getting that perk.

Lastly, I think the best system is one which creates a ton of unwanted items and a ton of IGC then causes you to annihilate BOTH in the process of making the high item you actually want, with that item having a very high rarity on its own. This could mean collecting hundreds of low rarity items and then paying IGC to annihilate them (and the IGC) in order to make an item. BUT, idf the item were a RNG drop instead of a given specific item, maybe to can make those cheaper, albeit with a high chance of getting something you don't actually need.

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I'd rather not have such

I'd rather not have such important things, augments and refinements, hidden behind things that require someone to play the game against how they want to play. Badges, sure. But useful crafting things stuck behind specific tf's or that require badges I am against that idea. I couldn't care less about badges and I dont raid in games so if theres an item that is craftable that I want I really dont want to have to go grind away in the 2 things I don't care for.

This is only for, as I said, useful in-game things like refinements. Theres no problem with locking badges behind tf's or even requiring other badges as they arent useful in-game.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Here's an idea for the "skilled crafting" Tannim, what if you could set up an Augment/Refinement ahead of time, then while you're away from your lair or whatever, the missions etc you do while the Augment is "in the oven" have an effect on the properties of the item in some way. Like, if you do a TF run and qualify for a badge of some kind (even if you already actually have the badge), you get some additional benefit added to the Augment you're making. OR, you could have it set up so that the Augment isn't actually done until you get several badges (or requalify for them)? Like in order to make the superawesome Augment you want, not only do you have to have the right crafting workbench and IGC and component items, you also have to go and do a bunch of missions etc and successfully do badge-worthy runs at them. Possibly in a given order.

Also, any amount of randomization added to to item itself allows for a TON more variability among the items themselves, and it could just be "you get a randomized perk" as opposed to NOT getting that perk.

Lastly, I think the best system is one which creates a ton of unwanted items and a ton of IGC then causes you to annihilate BOTH in the process of making the high item you actually want, with that item having a very high rarity on its own. This could mean collecting hundreds of low rarity items and then paying IGC to annihilate them (and the IGC) in order to make an item. BUT, idf the item were a RNG drop instead of a given specific item, maybe to can make those cheaper, albeit with a high chance of getting something you don't actually need.

Making crafting require combat mission completion idoesnt have anything to do with crafting itself. That is not an interactive element for crafting.

Intact it is doubling down on the basic play concept - combat - in order to get things needed for crafting and aid the crafting of the things you got.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Intact it’s doubvlifn down on the basic game play went. - combat - in order to get things needed for crafting and in diet to aid the crafting of the things you got.

Sorry I cant understand this.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Intact it’s doubvlifn down on the basic game play went. - combat - in order to get things needed for crafting and in diet to aid the crafting of the things you got.

Sorry I cant understand this.

Sorry my migraine is making my eyes blurry. I missed the terrible fat-fingered misspelling.

Intact it is doubling down on the basic play concept - combat - in order to get things needed for crafting and aid the crafting of the things you got.

It took me 5 tries to type that again.


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yeah i've filed aug/ref into

yeah i've filed aug/ref into "it'll be better than CoH but I'll have to see it to get it :p "

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Why do I immediately think of

Why do I immediately think of the PokeSnacks cooking, when I read interactive crafting lol
I mean, the system in the Nintendo DS versions, diamond, pearl etc

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I accept that augments and/or

I accept that augments and/or refinements will be acquired in some manner (MWM has not outlined this process yet). If the system is RNG based, I would like some process to be made available to skew the RNG towards (or away) from selected result(s) to make the path to upgrading less bumpy.

Essentially I am asking to make the hunting/gathering of materials or the actual augments/refinements a slightly more focused effort if the player chooses. If I have a glass cannon blaster, I have already accepted that I am paper thin on the defensive aspects, so I would prefer to get +Defense drops/rewards less frequently. I realize that the upgrading path will probably be a gradual process. What I do not want is a giant RNG grind-fest to maybe get something I want as an upgrade. Grinding to grind can be fun when you choose to do it. Being encouraged to endlessly grind to be effective by whatever standard saps the fun out of playing the game.

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I'd like as few RNG elements

I'd like as few RNG elements as possible. Mostly I find them Un-Fun, often frustrating at worst and tedious at best. Playing Dragon Ball Xenoverse 1&2 probably didn't help in that regard. (In xenoverse 1, for example, some times to get a thing you want you had to do a specific thing in a mission to have a chance to get into the bonus part to have a chance to get what you wanted)

On the crafting and crafting game thing that was discussed how about the crafting game uses less IGC than not doing it? Which could have a larger % of IGC saved based on the rarity/level of what you wish to craft.

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If there HAS TO BE any kind

If there HAS TO BE any kind of RNG element involved in crafting, I for one would vastly prefer it to only involve the time it takes to craft The Thing™ rather than in any way affecting the modifiers offered by The Thing™ itself. That way all crafting results are the same, but how long it takes to craft those results can vary.

That's as close as I'd want to get to any RNG element in crafting. Keep the results uniform but the crafting time to make them can vary.


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I'm unsure how I feel about a

I'm unsure how I feel about a crafting component to a superhero game, but if it's something that's solidly going to be included then I'm solely in the camp of making it optional without gimping your character. It feels like crafting should be a way to skip the RNG by investing time and resources to get what you want instead of hoping for a particular drop. So you should be able to achieve the same result by running missions until you get the random drops, or by investing the time and resources to build the enhancements you want.

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Personally I’m not a it fan

Personally I’m not a big fan of the crafting aspects as they were in COH, nor most games I’ve played. It’s just not a fun part of gaming to me. Always turns into work rather than play...

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I really like the idea of

I really like the idea of linking crafting time with participation in the rest of the game. It could an incentive to be active in the game (outside of crafting) and can be tailored to the needs of other players. Team search preferences and craft time rewards might be linked. Indeed, you could incentivise all types of social interactions- complete X missions with person you have never teamed with before, help a player X levels above/below you complete a TF, contribute to a World Event, help a player grind X faction, heal 10 million health in X missions. etc. These mini-games could be selected based on input from players in the team search, so it's based on the players stated needs. It could also be generated by devs to direct play in bottlenecked or less used areas or if there are clumps in level progression which might be making some areas more/less full.
The player-side experience might be more related to obtaining needed materials, information, special tech/magical boons by way of these mission objectives, so it keeps it more immersive rather than a meta-game.
Not too sure about the RNG aspects but this would be a possibility that would help reduce time crafting into time playing in the game.

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If people can make whatever

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me. The more people advocate for less randomness, the less necessary any sort of player-to-play economy becomes. All that particular subsystem is intended to do is get the items that fall at random into the hands of those that want them. If we can all just craft exactly what we want, player-to-player economy is not necessary.

More randomness = more commerce. More tailored crafting = more people turtling up and just satisfying their own needs on their own with little or no interaction with the game economy.

I would also remind people who said "Don't make us do specific content for specific rewards" that CoX had that. You only got HamiO's from Hamidon raids, for instance. Later, you could get Synthetic HamiOs from the Statesman TF. What I was talking about was something more like "if you want a specific Unique or Purple type Enhancer, you have to craft it by doing X Y and Z badge runs successfully". Any of that could be soloable content, for instance, so no need to do a TF per se, unless it happens to be required by the item itself. And as long as there's an auction house, you don't have to do that content yourself, you can pay someone else for theirs. Those people who like doing badge runs of TFs might make a point of manufacturing such items to the point that prices might be somewhat reasonable even. Whereas the dedicated soloists might like to do some of the ones that require that. I, for one, am unlikely to do any PVP for making gear, but I'd buy it from PvPers while making my own TF or solo based stuff to sell to them, for example. So instead of "forcing people to play the game in ways they don't like" you're actually making every play style lucrative but not necessarily independently wealthy, so we all still have to trade with each other, which is what the auction house system is for.

As far any sort of crafting sub-game goes, Tannim, if this is some kind of "solve a rubik's cube = get an Augment" type of thing, that's fine, but it will require some kind of coding up to make it compelling and fun, and the game is not supposed to be about sitting in your lair and making widgets all day, it's supposed to be an RPG where you fight crime or try to take over the world or something. If you really want to go over the top, you could make the crafting game basic algebra. Solve for x or factor the quadratic expression and get an Augment. Then for the really rare stuff you throw like a hyperbolic conic section at people and see if anyone remembers how to complete the square. I'd love to see that.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

As far any sort of crafting sub-game goes, Tannim, if this is some kind of "solve a rubik's cube = get an Augment" type of thing, that's fine, but it will require some kind of coding up to make it compelling and fun, and the game is not supposed to be about sitting in your lair and making widgets all day, it's supposed to be an RPG where you fight crime or try to take over the world or something.

I agree. The main focus of the game is combat. However, there were and will be people who had and will spend literal hours crafting items every day.

Instead of just “click and watch progress bar”, I’d like a more optional interactive element. Most likely it would be some form of mini-game and it could be done in such a way to set up multiple items to be crafted “at once” and then do the interactive thing to reduce time involved. Or do interactive thing for random element bonus instead paying extra cost / time to get better random bonus.


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Ngl I would love a forging,

Ngl I would love a forging, tinkering, magic crafting, writing, or something like that mini-game.

Kinda like in The Old City where while crafting IOs you'd mess with a generic blue cube, which was great if you're a tech guy. This could be taken further if you're a mage crafting some relic or a smith of sorts.

Basically custom crafting animations :p

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Oh I want to have custom

Oh I want to have custom crafting tables (for bases) and animations for wherever you craft.


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LOVELY! :)

LOVELY! :)

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me. The more people advocate for less randomness, the less necessary any sort of player-to-play economy becomes. All that particular subsystem is intended to do is get the items that fall at random into the hands of those that want them. If we can all just craft exactly what we want, player-to-player economy is not necessary.

I had a different perspective with the alignment merits. See I didn't actually want to worry about set bonuses, but I DID like having inf. So I could have my toons crank out Luck of the Gambler uniques to put on the market for easy money. 1 player would never put a dent in the demand, but there were folks that appreciated the time savings.

Not saying you were wrong to enjoy playing your way, just that there were other approaches that used the player economy.

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The auction house exists

The auction house exists because not everyone wants to bother with crafting but wants to gain the benefits of crafting. You don’t need RNG results to have an economy.


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If you want crafting to be

If you want crafting to be more involved two options come to mind. There's the FFXIV route where crafting is like a combat encounter in itself with it's own moves, or a pseudo Factorio route where you plan out an actual workshop within your base.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Oh I want to have custom crafting tables (for bases) and animations for wherever you craft.

One alternative "crafting" method that I can envision is that different Contacts can craft different stuff for you ... just hand over the materials (including IGC) and "come back later" to pick up the finished product(s). That way, rather than it being your PC (only) doing the crafting, you rely on your Contacts to get the work done for you while you go beat up bad/good guys. Simply assign a countdown that runs on real time (rather than time logged in) so that you can load up a Contact with an "assignment" ... log out ... log in later and pick up the finished stuff(s) after the countdown has run its course. Essentially you "outsource" your crafting to the NPCs of the game who "know you" and you've done good work for in the past (so they'll owe you favors and whatnot).

Note that such a system would even allow for a sliding scale (possibly even incorporating a slider UI element) for how FAST you want the crafting to be finished, with faster being more costly in IGC, as a way to sink IGC out of the economy. You could do anything from 1 minute to 1 week per item to craft, with the minimum time being ridiculously expensive, and the maximum time being so dirt cheap as to be practically free (or possibly even actually free as in zero IGC cost).

The downside to such a system is that rather than going to a single centralized Crafting Table to do everything, instead you need to hit up the different Contacts you've collected over your crime fighting/doing career in order to get the different "stuffs" that can be crafted. The upside to such a system is that this gives people a motivation to "keep in touch with" and remember their old Contacts, and can even promote having PCs "circulate" around the game world, rather than staying parked all the time in a single central "hub" location where all the services are mere steps away (and you never need to leave the building).


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I like it!

I like it!

Just like the Tailor form Daredevil, the Tinkerer, or Stark's automated assemblers. You could also have such people in your bases: automatons, employees, henchmen, demons, etc.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Oh I want to have custom crafting tables (for bases) and animations for wherever you craft.

One alternative "crafting" method that I can envision is that different Contacts can craft different stuff for you ... just hand over the materials (including IGC) and "come back later" to pick up the finished product(s). That way, rather than it being your PC (only) doing the crafting, you rely on your Contacts to get the work done for you while you go beat up bad/good guys. Simply assign a countdown that runs on real time (rather than time logged in) so that you can load up a Contact with an "assignment" ... log out ... log in later and pick up the finished stuff(s) after the countdown has run its course. Essentially you "outsource" your crafting to the NPCs of the game who "know you" and you've done good work for in the past (so they'll owe you favors and whatnot).

Note that such a system would even allow for a sliding scale (possibly even incorporating a slider UI element) for how FAST you want the crafting to be finished, with faster being more costly in IGC, as a way to sink IGC out of the economy. You could do anything from 1 minute to 1 week per item to craft, with the minimum time being ridiculously expensive, and the maximum time being so dirt cheap as to be practically free (or possibly even actually free as in zero IGC cost).

The downside to such a system is that rather than going to a single centralized Crafting Table to do everything, instead you need to hit up the different Contacts you've collected over your crime fighting/doing career in order to get the different "stuffs" that can be crafted. The upside to such a system is that this gives people a motivation to "keep in touch with" and remember their old Contacts, and can even promote having PCs "circulate" around the game world, rather than staying parked all the time in a single central "hub" location where all the services are mere steps away (and you never need to leave the building).

Interesting as that is, youbhave to understand the context of what else crafting entails that hasn’t been publically explaine yet. We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such.

We could cut out the crafting table and use a contact but you also lose out on another tengental system: it also further removes the player from any possible interactive elements, making seem like crafting ends up feeling like a series of fetch quests for the NPC for the player to gain the reward.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Interesting as that is, you have to understand the context of what else crafting entails that hasn’t been publicly explained yet.

Wait ... you're holding me accountable for information I don't have, which hasn't been released yet, because it hasn't been explained ... and it's my fault that I don't know what you know, so I'm just wrong, is that it?

Um ...

Tannim222 wrote:

We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such.

That's nice.
Ever had any second thoughts about the wisdom of that choice? Analyzed any alternatives to it? Entertained any proposals?

Tannim222 wrote:

We could cut out the crafting table

Um ... that's not what I proposed.
I specifically used the word "alternative" in what I wrote.
You're talking about a replacement.
I wasn't.

Your turn.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Interesting as that is, you have to understand the context of what else crafting entails that hasn’t been publicly explained yet.

Wait ... you're holding me accountable for information I don't have, which hasn't been released yet, because it hasn't been explained ... and it's my fault that I don't know what you know, so I'm just wrong, is that it?

Um ...

Not at all. I was simply trying to indicate that because you don't know more about the system that your idea doesn't exactly mesh with it. But I did state that we could change our current system to use your idea...

Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such.

That's nice.
Ever had any second thoughts about the wisdom of that choice? Analyzed any alternatives to it? Entertained any proposals?

Yes. Yes. Yes again. And after all that, a final system was decided upon and a design goal set.

Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We could cut out the crafting table

Um ... that's not what I proposed.
I specifically used the word "alternative" in what I wrote.
You're talking about a replacement.
I wasn't.

Your turn.

I was offering how we could use your idea into our current system.

Your turn, my turn, the world turns.


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Sounds like we need another

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me.

I think it if you described what sort of economy you would like to see in CoT (and how you envision leveraging it), that might make it easier for people to understand why you want a prominent RNG factor involved in the game. Tell us what makes RNG fun for you and how it can make the game play experience better for the player base.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

One alternative "crafting" method that I can envision is that different Contacts can craft different stuff for you ... just hand over the materials (including IGC) and "come back later" to pick up the finished product(s). That way, rather than it being your PC (only) doing the crafting, you rely on your Contacts to get the work done for you while you go beat up bad/good guys. Simply assign a countdown that runs on real time (rather than time logged in) so that you can load up a Contact with an "assignment" ... log out ... log in later and pick up the finished stuff(s) after the countdown has run its course. Essentially you "outsource" your crafting to the NPCs of the game who "know you" and you've done good work for in the past (so they'll owe you favors and whatnot).

Note that such a system would even allow for a sliding scale (possibly even incorporating a slider UI element) for how FAST you want the crafting to be finished, with faster being more costly in IGC, as a way to sink IGC out of the economy. You could do anything from 1 minute to 1 week per item to craft, with the minimum time being ridiculously expensive, and the maximum time being so dirt cheap as to be practically free (or possibly even actually free as in zero IGC cost).

The downside to such a system is that rather than going to a single centralized Crafting Table to do everything, instead you need to hit up the different Contacts you've collected over your crime fighting/doing career in order to get the different "stuffs" that can be crafted. The upside to such a system is that this gives people a motivation to "keep in touch with" and remember their old Contacts, and can even promote having PCs "circulate" around the game world, rather than staying parked all the time in a single central "hub" location where all the services are mere steps away (and you never need to leave the building).

Conceptually, I like this idea because it introduces a semi-active participation element to keep the Super involved in the world in some way. If you want help from the contacts/NPCs, you have to be out in the world doing stuff (favors to make their crafting assistance possible or worth their while). What would make this even more interesting is if these contacts/NPCs had a degree of complexity in this favor system where they could react to current global events (at the neighborhood / city / region / world levels).

The only thing that makes me uneasy is the possible fire-and-forget nature of kicking off a week long crafting task. I know somewhere in the life span of a character (or any number of alts) that we as a player base will take advantage of an opportunity like this. I am not sure how I would feel about having this aspect of the crafting element in the game. It reminds me of the Follower/Champion mission mechanic that Blizzard introduced into WoW in Warlords of Draenor. When a WoW character (main or alt) reached a certain equilibrium and you did not actively play, the only thing you did every day was: (1) log in, (2) check your Follower/Champion mission results, (3) see what new missions were available, (4) fire off as many Follower missions as possible, (5) log out of that character and go back to step 1 with the next character. I am not saying that what you proposed is what I characterized as happening in WoW. I am just saying that I worry that that mentality might creep into the play habits.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If people can make whatever they want, specifically, to the level of detail that matters to us, then there is no reason to have an auction house system at all. In the last year of CoX I spent a lot less time on the market and a lot more time grinding for Hero Merits to trade to BOTLER for specific IOs I wanted and it took the commerce right out of the game for me. The more people advocate for less randomness, the less necessary any sort of player-to-play economy becomes. All that particular subsystem is intended to do is get the items that fall at random into the hands of those that want them. If we can all just craft exactly what we want, player-to-player economy is not necessary.

More randomness = more commerce. More tailored crafting = more people turtling up and just satisfying their own needs on their own with little or no interaction with the game economy.

My experience is different.

There are still people who don't want to bother with crafting at all and just wants to buy it, and there are people who don't always have the time to craft and would at least occasionally buy. Then there are of course the people who love crafting an makes as big of a part as they can in the game they are playing. But regardless of, ime, there has always been a market for crafting materials.

What I hate more in crafting, and a thing that I believe is "limiting" a market much more than tailored crafting, is making the high-end crafted items "soulbound on acquire". That removes items from the high-end market and relegates it to crafting materials only, and in many cases only the more basic (even though high-end) crafting materials.

Quote:

I would also remind people who said "Don't make us do specific content for specific rewards" that CoX had that. You only got HamiO's from Hamidon raids, for instance. Later, you could get Synthetic HamiOs from the Statesman TF. What I was talking about was something more like "if you want a specific Unique or Purple type Enhancer, you have to craft it by doing X Y and Z badge runs successfully". Any of that could be soloable content, for instance, so no need to do a TF per se, unless it happens to be required by the item itself. And as long as there's an auction house, you don't have to do that content yourself, you can pay someone else for theirs. Those people who like doing badge runs of TFs might make a point of manufacturing such items to the point that prices might be somewhat reasonable even. Whereas the dedicated soloists might like to do some of the ones that require that. I, for one, am unlikely to do any PVP for making gear, but I'd buy it from PvPers while making my own TF or solo based stuff to sell to them, for example. So instead of "forcing people to play the game in ways they don't like" you're actually making every play style lucrative but not necessarily independently wealthy, so we all still have to trade with each other, which is what the auction house system is for.

That is not what you said in the previous post.
Like, if you do a TF run and qualify for a badge of some kind (even if you already actually have the badge), you get some additional benefit added to the Augment you're making. OR, you could have it set up so that the Augment isn't actually done until you get several badges (or requalify for them)?
That to me (and I guess most others) is that it's the act of getting/qualifying the badge itself, and not a tradeable ingredient, that drives the final result or the crafting progress as a whole.

However, regardless of which you actually meant it still has the "condition" of needing to do very specific things to get a specific result. Yes, CoH had it but that doesn't mean CoT has to have it as well. I think that every drop should have at least two ways of getting it (AH doesn't really count) with one preferably being solo friendly.

Quote:

As far any sort of crafting sub-game goes, Tannim, if this is some kind of "solve a rubik's cube = get an Augment" type of thing, that's fine, but it will require some kind of coding up to make it compelling and fun, and the game is not supposed to be about sitting in your lair and making widgets all day, it's supposed to be an RPG where you fight crime or try to take over the world or something. If you really want to go over the top, you could make the crafting game basic algebra. Solve for x or factor the quadratic expression and get an Augment. Then for the really rare stuff you throw like a hyperbolic conic section at people and see if anyone remembers how to complete the square. I'd love to see that.

Right, MWM shouldn't make that necessary but on the other hand why should they effectively remove that possibility for those players who really enjoy that aspect of games?

Also, a thing from the previous post I just had to comment on specifically:

Quote:

Lastly, I think the best system is one which creates a ton of unwanted items and a ton of IGC then causes you to annihilate BOTH in the process of making the high item you actually want, with that item having a very high rarity on its own. This could mean collecting hundreds of low rarity items and then paying IGC to annihilate them (and the IGC) in order to make an item. BUT, idf the item were a RNG drop instead of a given specific item, maybe to can make those cheaper, albeit with a high chance of getting something you don't actually need.

Even when the majority are unwanted by everyone?
A system that is effectively designed for you to churn out item after item after item and then either turn to the AH to get what you actually want or settle for a sub-par one is not something people will look forward to using.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such...

When I read this I presumed it was to increase social interaction. With that in mind I began to wonder if the crafting system will ever require collaboration. For instance if you want to craft something with healing effects you must have assistance from someone with healing abilities. Perhaps a given crafting item requires a team of people. I'm reminded of about a million movies where a bunch of bad guys get around a pentagram to cast a spell or enchant something or create the ultimate weapon or whatever. I imagine such a system could be intertwined with badges. It could even allow financial compensation for providing assistance.

Anyway, just an idea. Perhaps something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch.

[EDIT: for spelling]

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such...

When I read this I presumed it was to increase social interaction. With that in mind I began to wonder if the crafting system will ever require collaboration. For instance if you want to craft something with healing effects you must have assistance from someone with healing abilities. Perhaps a given crafting item requires a team of people. I'm reminded of about a million movies where a bunch of bad guys get around a pentagram to cast a spell or enchant something or create the ultimate weapon or whatever. I imagine such a system could be intertwined with badges. It could even allow financial compensation for providing assistance.

Anyway, just an idea. Perhaps something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch.

[EDIT: for spelling]

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

I have nothing against your specific crafting suggestion in this post - in fact it sounds pretty interesting.

But TBH I'm mainly responding to you because of your use of the phrase "something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch". I actually got a good laugh out of that for a purely unrelated reason based on its near word-for-word use by a Dev in another recent thread. Thanks. :)

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Hero_Zero wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such...

When I read this I presumed it was to increase social interaction. With that in mind I began to wonder if the crafting system will ever require collaboration. For instance if you want to craft something with healing effects you must have assistance from someone with healing abilities. Perhaps a given crafting item requires a team of people. I'm reminded of about a million movies where a bunch of bad guys get around a pentagram to cast a spell or enchant something or create the ultimate weapon or whatever. I imagine such a system could be intertwined with badges. It could even allow financial compensation for providing assistance.

Anyway, just an idea. Perhaps something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch.

[EDIT: for spelling]

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

As long as there is another way to do it I'm fine with this idea. But what happens if you want a certain augment or refinement but dont have any friends that play? And no one in general chat is willing to help? SOL.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

My first thought on this was, "But August was months ago!" ^_^

My second was "I hope we don't have to wait till next August to learn how augments - oh, that's what was meant."

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:
Hero_Zero wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

...We were told on the outset of design for the PCs to have reasons to return to centralized hubs of activity and the world-based crafting locations to be fixed as such...

When I read this I presumed it was to increase social interaction. With that in mind I began to wonder if the crafting system will ever require collaboration. For instance if you want to craft something with healing effects you must have assistance from someone with healing abilities. Perhaps a given crafting item requires a team of people. I'm reminded of about a million movies where a bunch of bad guys get around a pentagram to cast a spell or enchant something or create the ultimate weapon or whatever. I imagine such a system could be intertwined with badges. It could even allow financial compensation for providing assistance.

Anyway, just an idea. Perhaps something to add to the QOL list for consideration a few years post launch.

[EDIT: for spelling]

"THE TITANS ARE COMING! THE TITANS ARE COMING!"

As long as there is another way to do it I'm fine with this idea. But what happens if you want a certain augment or refinement but dont have any friends that play? And no one in general chat is willing to help? SOL.

From memory, if we translate directly from movies then those types of items would most likely be mission specific ones since they are rarely (if ever) personal upgrades but rather plot devices.

Now, this depends on exactly what is meant by HZ in regards to "healing effect". They have already stated that, in comparison with CoH, effectively all buff-effects including healing are consolidated down to one aug and likewise with all debuff effects. This brings to memory another suggestion about only being able to craft augs that were directly beneficial to you. Personally though I would not consider that kind crafting system (both HZ's one the one in memory, even if only partially) to have any "QoL" properties since it would more likely frustrate more people than not.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Instead of just “click and watch progress bar”, I’d like a more optional interactive element. Most likely it would be some form of mini-game and it could be done in such a way to set up multiple items to be crafted “at once” and then do the interactive thing to reduce time involved. Or do interactive thing for random element bonus instead paying extra cost / time to get better random bonus.

Yes. Please.

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Referring to Red's ideas, I

Referring to Red's ideas, I think if anything's going to push the progress bar forward on your crafting, it should be XP gained while the object is "in the oven" rather than real time or even logged-in time. That provides a use for XP after hitting the level cap, for one thing, and allows you to "work harder" to craft things faster for another. You could even have progress bonuses built into things like badges earned or achievements, etc.

I would prefer a game where the economy works such that you don't have to make anything "bind on acquire". I'm fine with "bind on equip" for basically everything tho. I'd even be ok with making "unslotters" available, but only for Stars/real money, and they also sink some IGC when you use them.

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Also, in furtherance of "Red

Also, in furtherance of "Red's ideas" ... ^_~

Let's say (just for the sake of argument and illustration purposes) that you have different OPTIONS for where to go to get your crafting done. You can go to:

  1. Crafting Tables
  2. Old Contacts

Now, if you go to a Crafting Table to do your crafting, that will be the Quick+Expensive option for getting your crafting done (Time is IGC and all that) ... but if you go to one of your Old Contacts to get the crafting done it'll take (a lot) longer to finish, but it'll be a lot cheaper/less costly to get the crafting done that way, so you wind up with a Slow+Cheap(er) option for getting your crafting done.

And at that point, it becomes a question of "What Is More Important To You As A Player?" for what you're willing to spend, and what you're wanting to conserve, in order to get your crafting results.
Do you need that item crafted RIGHT NOW ... or can you wait a day (or few) for it to be made more cheaply?
Depending on the circumstances of the Player, the answer to that question can easily change.

Point being that rather than a One Size Fits All solution to the question of how crafting gets "executed" within the game, instead you have OPTIONS ... and different people can play "their" crafting game however they want to play, which kinda sorta ought to be the point, no?
The two options aren't directly in competition with each other (per se), but are rather alternative routes for achieving what are essentially identical outcomes. No matter which method you choose, the results will be the same. The items that result from crafting aren't any different ... merely the "means" to do the crafting in the first place changes.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other (and all that).

Just a thought.


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Speaking of crafting

Speaking of crafting something that makes me often not bother with it in a lot of games is that you have to work really hard at it to make gear that's worse than what you can find.

In WoW if you start crafting as soon as you're able you can make some stuff that's a little better than what you can find early on, but very quickly you need to go to higher level areas to get the materials you need to craft things that would have been good for you levels ago.

For a lot of games crafting is only "good" for like top tier, end game, items which makes me wonder why they even bother to have it be something you can unlock early.

If crafting is only good for end game you might as well lock it till high levels, if it's supposed to be good all throughout it should level up with you and you should always be able to make something that is at least equal to what you can find.

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Agreed. I always thought

Agreed. I always thought crafted gear should be as good as the best gear.

Or, make all gear craftable and the items you find are crafting items.

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I touched on this in our last

I touched on this in our last update on Augments and Refinements. Basic Augments (that have no Ref sockets) are easy to obtain. Augments with Ref sockets must be crafted. They don’t drop.

The consideration is for Power Set Boosters and Global Blasters to drop and some that you craft, but of different varieties.

In this way the “best stuff” is only stuff you obtain for improving your powers is done through crafting or using the economy. While you are working toward kitting your character out, getting those Set Boosters will help you along.


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I have somewhat skimmed the

I have somewhat skimmed the last half of this thread. But "red's idea" did spark a little thought in my mind. I don't actually play elite dangerous but in that game I understand that in order to craft certain items you have to make friends with NPCs that are capable of teaching you that skill or selling you that item. Spin that a little bit with radiac and red's idea. If you have a contact that is a techno wizard of some sort. And you need something built. You give him the schematic and parts for what you need and he says. "Sure I can build it, but I need to do something for me." So you run what effectively is a tip mission and come back when finished and he hands you whatever you asked him to make. In order to speed up the crafting process you run the mission faster. So the crafting process doubles down on the combat aspect of game play. Or if for whatever reason you can't finish the mission or don't want to you allow the timer to expire and get your item.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Speaking of crafting something that makes me often not bother with it in a lot of games is that you have to work really hard at it to make gear that's worse than what you can find.

In WoW if you start crafting as soon as you're able you can make some stuff that's a little better than what you can find early on, but very quickly you need to go to higher level areas to get the materials you need to craft things that would have been good for you levels ago.

For a lot of games crafting is only "good" for like top tier, end game, items which makes me wonder why they even bother to have it be something you can unlock early.

If crafting is only good for end game you might as well lock it till high levels, if it's supposed to be good all throughout it should level up with you and you should always be able to make something that is at least equal to what you can find.

Yes, this is a problem in many games in that progressing crafting is much much slower than progressing ones character. In most of the ones I have played (at least MMO's) it's so slow that you either take time to grind out crafting at, at least, every 10 levels to keep them even, or you postpone it to when you reach max and do a massive grinding session. Biggest problem though is in finding enough crafting materials while still leveling so that crafting can keep up.

As for it being usable while still leveling crafting, that ime mostly comes down to if they are consumables or non-consumables. Consumables are usually better than nothing so even lower level ones are still a viable alternative, not optimal but fully viable.

Grimfox wrote:

I have somewhat skimmed the last half of this thread. But "red's idea" did spark a little thought in my mind. I don't actually play elite dangerous but in that game I understand that in order to craft certain items you have to make friends with NPCs that are capable of teaching you that skill or selling you that item. Spin that a little bit with radiac and red's idea. If you have a contact that is a techno wizard of some sort. And you need something built. You give him the schematic and parts for what you need and he says. "Sure I can build it, but I need to do something for me." So you run what effectively is a tip mission and come back when finished and he hands you whatever you asked him to make. In order to speed up the crafting process you run the mission faster. So the crafting process doubles down on the combat aspect of game play. Or if for whatever reason you can't finish the mission or don't want to you allow the timer to expire and get your item.

As long as the combat aspect is limited to only external contacts then I have no problem with it. To me having to run combat missions to progress jobs at my personal crafting station wouldn't make sense. I'd rather do something at the station even if that is nonsensical in terms of "crafting" since it gives the feeling of directly doing the crafting.

But to take this a step further, there has been suggestion to be able to "hire" faction reps for ones base (given high enough faction standing) so maybe that could be a middle ground. Station being fast and expensive, "personal" faction rep being medium medium, and "external" contact slow and cheap. Though I'm not so sure about being able to make everything (outside of faction specific stuff) on every of those "types" of crafting options.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

I agree :)
with some final picture of the augments and refinement icons :p

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
desviper wrote:

Sounds like we need another Aug update ;)

I agree :)
with some final picture of the augments and refinement icons :p

Now that would be nice!


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You mean final alpha icons?

You mean final alpha icons? I'm sure nearly everything about the game will continually be tweaked until Issue 1. They probably dont want us thinking anything we've seen so far is final final.

Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.

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Dark Cleric wrote:
Dark Cleric wrote:

You mean final alpha icons? I'm sure nearly everything about the game will continually be tweaked until Issue 1. They probably dont want us thinking anything we've seen so far is final final.

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

Except the electrons currently flowing across the silicon substrate, and they aren't exactly "set", now are they?

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Seschat wrote:
Seschat wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

Except the electrons currently flowing across the silicon substrate, and they aren't exactly "set", now are they?

Trapped (supposedly), but definitely not "set".

At that level of resolution though, the tech to "see" it actually causes other issues and problems.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:
Seschat wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Heck, even after launching Issue 1 they may change things. Nothing in games (especially MMO's) are truly set in stone.

Except the electrons currently flowing across the silicon substrate, and they aren't exactly "set", now are they?

Trapped (supposedly), but definitely not "set".

At that level of resolution though, the tech to "see" it actually causes other issues and problems.

I'm Uncertain about whether improving the tech will help with those problems. ^_^

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In that case, blame

In that case, blame Heisenberg. He started it all.