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Riding Minions

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Halae
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Riding Minions

So, this was (briefly) brought up in another thread, but rather than carry it on there I felt this is something that warrants it's own thread.

The idea is pretty simple, really; allowing the player character to hitch a ride on their summons. An operator with a pet wyvern or dragon, for instance, could mount up on its back. One that commands a golem made of stone or clay could get inside the golem. A character with a big robot minion might be able to grab onto certain points, or magnetically attack their hands to the back of the robot and have it move forward.

This would, in essence, be a travel power. Training your beast to accept a rider, modifying drones to carry you, that sort of thing, and would turn the minion into a vehicle. Interestingly, this would also create a framework for vehicles - treat them as minions that you can climb on/inside and don't have real combat ability.

There's four ways this can work once you're in the air.

  1. You can direct your ride on where to go, such as by targeting a certain portion of the map, and the minion will drop you off there (this would also be pretty cool for a teleport system).
  2. Second is the same as choice 1, but you can bluntly change things in midair, such as insisting your minion swerve, turn a direction, or attack something even while you're riding it The monster is in control of where you go and what it's doing, but you can give it directions. Probably difficult to do, though, and I know many players wouldn't appreciate the lack of control. This is essentially what Skyrim did with the Dragon Riding they introduced in the Dragonborn DLC.
  3. Disabling the Minion while you're riding it, changing it from an autonomous entity into a vehicle for the duration. this'd give you complete control, but would deny access to the minion in question's abilities while riding it.
  4. your own powers are replaced by the ones the minion has, giving you full access to its abilities but denying your own abilities. This essentially makes it a different combat mode, rather than just a vehicle, though.

Doing this right could potentially give your minion and you a sort of "Cavalier" playstyle, as you could theoretically attack from monster-back while your minion is in the diver's seat, or command both your minion and yourself at the same time. in such a circumstance, incoming attacks would generally damage the minion before hitting the rider, though AoEs would likely still affect both.

I don't know how feasible it is, but as always my ideas won't be addressed at all if I don't toss them out there.

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Lothic
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The part of this idea where

The element of this idea where the "minion" is just part of a very elaborate animation sequence for a travel power may be relatively easy to accomplish. For instance when you choose to Fly perhaps a mystical Giant Eagle appears, grabs you by the shoulders with its talons, and you Fly around using the standard Fly controls while it looks as though the eagle is the one flying you around. In this case the eagle is essentially a holographic animation effect with no actual pet mechanics to deal with.

As soon as you try to complicate this whole idea with the "minion" being an actual pet which could be involved in combat or a standalone entity where you have to deal with its own abilities I think you'd make this kind of thing exponentially more difficult. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it would definitely be an entirely new can of worms. The Devs are apparently going to have a hard enough time giving us something equivalent to Mastermind pets - some of the things you're suggesting here would likely be a lot more problematic than that.

I actually like most of what you suggested here but I doubt any of it would happen until a long time after launch, if ever.

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If nothing else, we could put

If nothing else, we could put this under animation wishes. Super speed? A horseback animation set, with a few choices like a rainbow unicorn or a nightmare. Flight? Birdback. The trick is, a lot of those choices would need a large amount of customized combat animations. If nothing else, this would be a really cool animations choice for option 1 up there: a long-range teleport.

Apart from that, having a travel power native to certain minions really appeals to me. The above example of grabbing onto a robot and flying or superjumping with it? I'd do that in a heartbeat. It perfectly fits at least one character idea I have.

When it comes to mechanical bonuses (or lack thereof) of a mounted minion in combat, I feel that we don't know enough about the combat system yet to properly speculate. However, here is an idea: A 'Cavalier' Operator mastery might be cool. Barring that, perhaps a tertiary power set might not go amiss.

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Yay.. I wanna play Horsy too,

Yay.. I wanna play Horsy too, with my minions!

;D

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sounds remarkably like

sounds remarkably like Superhero Vehicles Online

I am not against having the eventual option of a framework based on a summon you can also ride.. but i keep my acceptance of it FIRMLY within those parameters: a singular primary framework of powers.

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Vehicles / Mounts is what you

Vehicles / Mounts is what you're pointing at. What you're reaching for is "Travel Powers" with additional effects beyond the merely personal.


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I could only imagine this

I could only imagine this working if All of the character's powers worked Only through the pet... or something like that. So, turning on Super-speed would affect the Pet and not the player. Most, if not all of the player's abilities would only work when they were mounted on their pet. The rest of the time, they would be Truly mundane.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I could only imagine this working if All of the character's powers worked Only through the pet... or something like that. So, turning on Super-speed would affect the Pet and not the player. Most, if not all of the player's abilities would only work when they were mounted on their pet. The rest of the time, they would be Truly mundane.
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Fireheart

Yeah I could almost see something like this being feasible. In this case as the player your "character" would functionally switch 100% to being the unique pet while in combat (the human part would just sort of tag along for the ride as a uncontrollable non-combat entity that would animate passively in relation to what the pet was doing).

The real problem with trying to mix having both the human character and minion pet both have abilities/powers and control capabilities in combat is how that would all be balanced against each other. That just seems like a nightmare for the Devs.

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One of the kludge factors of

One of the kludge factors of using Group Fly with Mastermind Pets was that the flight speed was not uniform among targets affected by the Power. This meant that if the Pets followed the PC, then the PC would be slightly faster (due to the Inherent Power of Swift) in Group Fly and thus all the Pets would slowly fall behind and out of the area of effect when traveling long distances.

The workaround solution to this was to instead have the PC follow one of the Pets and then command THAT Pet to "lead" the pack to wherever you wanted to go. It was ... weird ... that this was necessary, but it was the only workable way to get Group Fly functioning for more than one target.

So naturally Peacebringers had a Group Energy Flight Power that was just as difficult to organize into being useful, and thus almost never used except for RP.


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Back in the day... when I

Back in the day... when I played EverQuest, Bards had the most powerful overland travel-power and it could be shared with everyone on the team. However, it was Pulsed and had a limited range - like Group-Fly. If the Bard led the way, eventually stragglers would develop and someone would be left behind. The solution was to take note of who (for whatever reason) was the slowest. Then everyone would auto-follow That person, they would lead the way, and the Bard would effectively 'push' the team along.

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Yup, that's the (group)

Yup, that's the (group) dynamic.


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I'd imagine that the 3rd

I'd imagine that the 3rd option would be most like a travel power, so the dynamics wouldn't have to be changed. However, while you're riding around, I think it would be absolutely wonderful if the minion could still auto-attack anything that gets in range so long as you're still able to move. If one of the minion's powers requires him/her/hir/it to stand still, then I'd recommend having whether or not the minion attacks with those powers to be determined by whether or not you're targeting and attacking an enemy. Essentially, this combines elements from the 2nd and 4th options to give the fullest range of abilities.

Think about it- a minion who you can control the movements of and have them attack on target/command/player initiative. It's perfect.

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Right, so the Minion is the

Right, so the Minion is the super-powered one and the player character is just the Driver.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Right, so the Minion is the super-powered one and the player character is just the Driver.
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Fireheart

Not in my example. The player still gets to use all of his/her/hir/its powers while riding, much like how masterminds can attack alongside their pets.

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I have to agree with Lothic

I have to agree with Lothic here, there's a line between a simple animation switch for an ability versus complex new animations for both the player and the minion. If we are talking about using abilities while riding your minion that can still use their abilities, that may be asking too much, although I agree it would be cool. On the other hand it has already been mentioned that there would be different animations for how abilities originate from your character, chest, hands, eyes etc.. It seems feasible to me that you could have different animations for travel powers like riding a large robot, beast etc...(or perhaps just a catapult that you hop into that will launch you to a desired location, Super Jump Anyone? lol)

One idea to simplify this could be to have default travel power animations that would have a copy of the different minions so you could simply choose one of the minions that matched your set.

Also, I think it would be pretty awesome if you simply had a powerset that was some sort of large suit or controllable entity whether it be mechanical or organic. In this instance though you would more than likely be inside it at all times. I don't think this will really happen because it will ruin any need for a costume and it would probably require its own set of animations, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

And my final thought, what if there was just a travel power that was something large carrying you, whether it be walking or flying. To others points, this could essentially just be part of a "Vehicle set" travel power, but a bit more abstract, Giant Robot, Dragon, Sylvanus....

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Some people have been

Some people have been watching too much Big Hero 6 xD

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That's all we ask for; just

That's all we ask for; just the...bear necessities; the simple bear necessities... ^_^

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The bear necessities require

The bear necessities require creation (and animation!) of a non-humanoid rig.

Non-trivial Feature Request™.


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But once we have the

But once we have the quadrupedal rig (so that, just to pull a couple of examples out of the suggestion jar, we can have PC cats and wolf or bear minions), it will be less non-trivial. ^_^

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A quad-rig puts a whole new

A quad-rig puts a whole new swirl on Squirrel Girl.

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Quad Rig of Cat ≠ Quad Rig of

Quad Rig of Cat ≠ Quad Rig of Dog ≠ Quad Rig of Horse ≠ Quad Rig of Bear ≠ Quad Rig of SQUIRREL!!


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I see your squirrel and raise

I see your squirrel and raise you a... demonic duck of some sort...

So, besides trying to distract us, you're saying each type of quadruped will need it's own rig, just as a rig for humans won't work for a duck?

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Skeletons are different ...

Skeletons are different ... and therefore the animations of the movement are different.

This ...

... does not move like this ...

... despite both of them walking on (optionally) two legs or four. The proportions are different, the size is different, the animations are different. Needless to say, neither of the above would work for this ...

... AND this ...

... and this ...

... or this ...

... even though all of those are obviously all quadrupeds.

Trying to make a single quadrupedal rig be morphable into ALL of those ... AND use the exact same animation of that morphing rig ... would be sheer folly. Even trying to take a "cat" rig and make it do double duty as a "dog" rig would be foolish. There are similarities (quadrupedal movement), but at the same time they are quite different.


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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

However, while you're riding around, I think it would be absolutely wonderful if the minion could still auto-attack anything that gets in range so long as you're still able to move. If one of the minion's powers requires him/her/hir/it to stand still, then I'd recommend having whether or not the minion attacks with those powers to be determined by whether or not you're targeting and attacking an enemy. Essentially, this combines elements from the 2nd and 4th options to give the fullest range of abilities.
Think about it- a minion who you can control the movements of and have them attack on target/command/player initiative. It's perfect.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

The player still gets to use all of his/her/hir/its powers while riding, much like how masterminds can attack alongside their pets.

The problem here is that Masterminds were balanced so that they needed the combination of their own powers and their pets powers together to be effectively equivalent to what other characters could do on their own. Masterminds were not overpowered because one-for-one without pets they were technically weaker than other standalone characters.

If the Devs of CoT were to give anyone the ability to have attack-capable mount minions then that combination (character plus mount) instantly becomes MORE powerful than the average Mastermind because you're giving a character who was already balanced to NOT need pets an extra source of DPS.

I admit it'd be cool to have ridable mounts that could independently attack in CoT. But allowing for something like that would instantly make that kind of thing a virtual requirement because your "character" effectively becomes twice as powerful with such a mount than without one. Everyone would be highly motivated to have an attack mount regardless of character concept because min/maxers would likely consider it a "self-nerf" not to have one.

"City of Titans" would become "City of Mounts" because everyone would use them by default.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
However, while you're riding around, I think it would be absolutely wonderful if the minion could still auto-attack anything that gets in range so long as you're still able to move. If one of the minion's powers requires him/her/hir/it to stand still, then I'd recommend having whether or not the minion attacks with those powers to be determined by whether or not you're targeting and attacking an enemy. Essentially, this combines elements from the 2nd and 4th options to give the fullest range of abilities.
Think about it- a minion who you can control the movements of and have them attack on target/command/player initiative. It's perfect.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
The player still gets to use all of his/her/hir/its powers while riding, much like how masterminds can attack alongside their pets.

The problem here is that Masterminds were balanced so that they needed the combination of their own powers and their pets powers together to be effectively equivalent to what other characters could do on their own. Masterminds were not overpowered because one-for-one without pets they were technically weaker than other standalone characters.
If the Devs of CoT were to give anyone the ability to have attack-capable mount minions then that combination (character plus mount) instantly becomes MORE powerful than the average Mastermind because you're giving a character who was already balanced to NOT need pets an extra source of DPS.
I admit it'd be cool to have ridable mounts that could independently attack in CoT. But allowing for something like that would instantly make that kind of thing a virtual requirement because your "character" effectively becomes twice as powerful with such a mount than without one. Everyone would be highly motivated to have an attack mount regardless of character concept because min/maxers would likely consider it a "self-nerf" not to have one.
"City of Titans" would become "City of Mounts" because everyone would use them by default.

Well, the devs have alluded to the possibility of having tertiary summoning sets. If they would be permanent like MM or temporary like the final one in the controlling sets I have not seen anything about.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Lothic wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
However, while you're riding around, I think it would be absolutely wonderful if the minion could still auto-attack anything that gets in range so long as you're still able to move. If one of the minion's powers requires him/her/hir/it to stand still, then I'd recommend having whether or not the minion attacks with those powers to be determined by whether or not you're targeting and attacking an enemy. Essentially, this combines elements from the 2nd and 4th options to give the fullest range of abilities.
Think about it- a minion who you can control the movements of and have them attack on target/command/player initiative. It's perfect.

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
The player still gets to use all of his/her/hir/its powers while riding, much like how masterminds can attack alongside their pets.

The problem here is that Masterminds were balanced so that they needed the combination of their own powers and their pets powers together to be effectively equivalent to what other characters could do on their own. Masterminds were not overpowered because one-for-one without pets they were technically weaker than other standalone characters.
If the Devs of CoT were to give anyone the ability to have attack-capable mount minions then that combination (character plus mount) instantly becomes MORE powerful than the average Mastermind because you're giving a character who was already balanced to NOT need pets an extra source of DPS.
I admit it'd be cool to have ridable mounts that could independently attack in CoT. But allowing for something like that would instantly make that kind of thing a virtual requirement because your "character" effectively becomes twice as powerful with such a mount than without one. Everyone would be highly motivated to have an attack mount regardless of character concept because min/maxers would likely consider it a "self-nerf" not to have one.
"City of Titans" would become "City of Mounts" because everyone would use them by default.

Well, the devs have alluded to the possibility of having tertiary summoning sets. If they would be permanent like MM or temporary like the final one in the controlling sets I have not seen anything about.

Controller Pets were only stuck with a "temporary duration" during the first year or so of CoH. They underwent multiple nerfings in the first 12-18 months of the game until they were made "permanent" but fixed in number (e.g. only 3 Fire Imps total) and also very weak (-1 level to the Controller and especially compared to most of the Mastermind pets). My guess is that if CoT provides tertiary summoning sets the pets of those sets will also be very weak or otherwise balanced so that the "dedicated pet" classes will always have much better pets than anything a tertiary set could provide.

Another thing to consider is that depending on your character build there will probably be other tertiary powersets that will be better alternatives than always going for the pet sets. Basically I doubt that getting a tertiary summoning set will always be the obvious choice for most people. On the other hand with no obvious downside it would seem like virtually everyone would opt for an attack-capable mount because that would likely help any character of any build regardless of powerset choice. Unless using an attack-capable mount had some weird major built-in drawback I could see where effectively everyone would use one and the entire game would have to be readjusted for that scenario in mind. As I concluded before it would become City of Mounts.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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[Youtube]v=Ltu9knvArbU&t=90s[

You could ride them in this game. Some where pretty damn big to boot, which makes me wonder how big our pets can get. This game still has the best pet system ever.

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=P

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Isn't this basically the same

Isn't this basically the same thread as the one about having guns on vehicles?

When you don't have aesthetics tied to powers then an attacking mount is exactly the same as an attacking vehicle.

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Normally, you'd be right, but

Normally, you'd be right, but I started this thread three years ago. The "guns on vehicles" thread came up, what, less than a month ago?

I claim seniority.

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Hahaha, fair enough!

Hahaha, fair enough!

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Iol, I was kind of thinking,

Iol, I was kind of thinking, should I bump this? Or go to the recent one?

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