For the first few years, CoH was my ideal game. I went out with my characters and bashed heads and played hero (and villain), with no problem. Then came the invention system. The claims were made that the system was entirely optional, but that was FAR from true. I chose not to use any sets on my characters and only used the occasional IO. I refused to run the same TFs time and time again, to "farm for purples." Such a thing is repulsive to me, which is why I loved CoH so much to begin with.
Without set bonuses, my characters couldn't even practice with my SG mates in the arena any more. They were so gimped, they'd get their butts handed to them in short order. Likewise, EBs which other characters could defeat would make my characters run for cover.
My suggestion...request...BEGGING...whatever, is to please keep crafting out of the game. I can understand if the character is a gadgeteer and he creates items which give him (temp?) powers. Other than that, however, please don't make the players who DON'T want to do crafting have to do it simply to keep up with other characters of the same level as theirs.
Many thanks!
Pat
(aka @Power Play/Power-Play/Liberty Eagle)
Virtue Server, CoH
I haven't even read this and I second it. I hate crafting and thought it was ridiculous for a superhero game. If we must have crafting, make it actually crafting for people making their own robots or magic items or Iron Man suits. Crafting enhancements was just stupid in a superhero environment.
Now that I have read this. I stick to my opinion and agree 100% with the OP.
Please no crafting.
So... here's an even crazier idea...
A crafting powerset.
there will be "non-combat" power sets in the game... like the detective set that's supposedly going to help us find more leads...
So why not a costume designer set or a consumables set...? (technically, leads ARE consumables, but whatever)
I think we can all agree that the problem with crafting, in this game... is that the only way to make people feel compelled to use it... is to make the enhancements ("gear") that crafting can produce better than those that can be acquired by other means...
....why? because the process of crafting sucks!
hunting down component parts sucks
having to farm for components sucks
having to "level up" your crafting skills sucks
having break down or built up useless junk to improve your crafting skills sucks...
Crafting, as it's been done in the past, is tedious and unfun..... so, by the rules of MMOs, the results must bet better than what can be acquired doing something fun.
THAT is what needs to change: The Crafting Process.
Make it simple, make it "flavor"..... make it like the costume creator.... something fun to waste time doing, and then show off...
This isnt an economy sim, we dont need to build empires of greed
make crafting do something else....
___________________________________
[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
FWIW, I enjoyed the crafting in CoH. I never felt like I -had- to do it (I didn't do it for a lot of characters), but it was a way I could tweak some characters out further.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
It could be argued that slotting enhancements [b]is[/b] crafting (of your powers), and that IOs were just one meta too far...
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
I'm all for crafting power sets, but for everyone to have to do it or feel gimped if they didn't, sucked. As was stated above, it was tedious and boring, I say make it for specific power sets like making robots or power armor, but don't make it universal.
I'm all for crafting - as long as it makes sense in the context of a supers game and within the lore of the setting. CoH had one of the better crafting systems I've played around with - pretty simple to use and entirely optional. And even if you didn't want to craft yourself but still desired the end product you could buy it on the market. Hopefully CoT will have something similar to CoH's system.
Since CoH went down, I've been fiddling with LOTRO and The Secret World. Crafting in LOTRO is a thing - it's a bit on the tedious and time-consuming side, but while it DOES help your character, you never feel as if you're completely gimped if you haven't checked your gear in a week or so. TSW seems even more laid-back - until the top end you're living off, or slightly tweaking, dropped gear.
The biggest negative to crafting from my standpoint is the inevitable fight for the purple drops. If it's landscape-based materials that you run across anyway, and can work into something that can help your character on a night when you're feeling a bit off and could use a break from punching things (thinking Tough Spandex +3% Damage Resistance, or Boots of Quickness +5% to Superspeed Velocity here), I don't see an issue. Done right, it adds to the richness of the game. As long as it's firmly on the side of nice-to-have vs. must-have it won't be worth the investment for the farmers, but would benefit those who like to smell the roses.
I liked crafting but I will admit that the process itself was tedious. Many people enjoy crafting so I cannot see them leaving it out. However I would not be opposed to seeing it go a different way.
One of the things I remember crafting were the IOs that never expired. I used those a LOT. I would like to see crafted items grant a buff but if it were relatively small then non-crafters might not feel so overwhelmed.
I'm wiling to keep an open mind...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I recall beeing Joyous when i found out that I can craft an enhancement that would stop/lessen the knockback on my toons, especially if i wasnt a Defense based AT. If you can come up with a nicer approach to fill those pot holes, i'm willing to hear you out.
And I did like the formula of keeping AT's in the early game close to what they are born with, and as they become more mature (late game), be able to augment their inadequacies.
Well crafting is optional. You are not forced to craft anything. (I for example never crafted anything for my main character I bought all from trade house or for traded them from friends with whatever drop I got)
It can't be said for the end product however (in CoH's case set items) but since there is a between player trade system it should balance it out for players who crafts and for those who don't.
Problem with this system however was prices of crafted items. Usually in other games there is other income sources other crafting (like collecting ingrediants jobs and such) but in CoH there was no such thing and PvE content was tailored for IO's so they were not a good income source. Only thing that worth money was recipes and some rare crafting materials but everyone had same chance of access to them including the crafter and since there was no time consume for crafter (other than going to a University for access to tool table) things became unbalanced.
I would have to disagree. I found crafting as enjoyable as any other part of the game.
The game was supposed to be balanced around SO's. Could you do things easier with the right IO's, sure. But as I'm sure many others will attest it could be done with just the SOs. Some things were supposed to be difficult.
As far as being behind others in PVP, welll, that was a problem with PVP and not with the crafting system.
The crafting system in City of Heroes was just a tremendous sink, as far as i was concerned. It existed because of Inventions (ie. Inventions "created" the crafting system, which is a wonderful "chicken vs egg" problem if you think about it the wrong way), and it existed pretty much for the sole purpose of supporting Inventions. Inventions were NEEDED because of the Enhancement Dysfunction system creating the "enhancement cliff" behavior in the meta game that outright GIMPED so many builds that had been fully functional before. Then you had all the Crafting Badges in order to Memorize the crafting of Common IOs, which essentially functioned as a GIANT SINK that required an almost insane level of bookkeeping in order to track and accomplish if you had more than 1 character (I had like 10-12 on Virtue alone) ... which just created this huge balloon of Badges.
I mean, if you took the Invention and Salvage stuff out of the markets, you'd see something like 70% (or more) of the materials listed in it go missing and wind up with a much simpler game and marketplace. And honestly, even Common IOs were BETTER than any TO/DO/SO at the same Level ... so you've essentially managed to obsolete the entire Enhancement Methods used prior to Inventions, complete with game mechanical reinforcement of the point that if you aren't using Invention Commons, you're just gimping yourself for no good reason.
So I'll just say this about Crafting for City of Titans.
[b]Launch WITHOUT Crafting[/b]
Leave the option open to implement a Crafting System AFTER LAUNCH that can fill the role and supply "services" which might have gone overlooked at Launch ... but don't set up a Crafting System to be used AT launch, as a Global system to be used by all characters and all archetypes. As mentioned previously, an Inventor/Tinkerer type of skillset may very well call for some sort of Crafting System of some kind ... but other than that, I have to say that the BURDENS of Inventions (and Sets in particular) really was a case of pushing the Game Meta [b]too far for comfort[/b] because you needed a tool like Mids' Hero Planner to even BEGIN to keep track of all the little fiddly bits and complexities and bookkeeping for you. Inventions made the City of Heroes a far more "unstable beast" to try and keep tamed as far as Game Balance was concerned. Best not to Launch with such a ... volatile ... element, and instead save such developments for a little later on down the line once a Game Balance Consensus has been reached between the Developers and the Community at Large by having the game LIVE for a span of time (at LEAST 6 months, if not longer!) so as to be able to make Good Decisions™ once the game has been given a thorough Shakedown Cruise by its Players.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I love crafting in other games but didn't like it in COH. One of the things I loved about COH was that you didn't have to min/max your character. I hate stressing over how I stat every little thing. In COH, I put my enhancements in and went with it.
One of the main things I hate about WOW is that it relies on gear so much. If you don't spend every waking minute raiding, you have no hope of defeating someone who does. COH was perfect for a casual gamer (though often I was anything but). What excited me most about COH was getting new powers and playing with my friends. Simple but still the game I love the most.
It is pretty funny because it is exatcly opposite for me. I liked CoH crafting rather than other games and I would beg for something similar to it being at launch. I am even willing doubling whatever I put on in KS if they open donation and set it as a goal.
I'm not going the claim that CoH's crafting system was perfect. It had plenty of warts and could have been improved in a number of ways.
But by the same token it was probably one of the most "optional" crafting systems when compared to other games. Obviously if you were obsessed with min/maxing your characters to the hilt then the crafting system was something you had to be involved with. But for the most part it was never overtly neccessary for anyone. As long as CoT manages to make its crafting system as equally optional as CoH did it'll probably be fine.
As to whether CoT ought to try to get a crafting system working on Launch Day or not I don't really have strong feelings for either way. I could accept Redlynne's idea that they delay it until they get everything else working first. But the idea that this new game would NEVER have a crafting system just seems way too improbable to me. Unless the Devs cleverly come up with something that sort of serves the same purpose as a crafting system without actualy being "crafting" in the traditional sense I just don't see this game being craft-less forever.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ok.. But i always used SO's up until level 47... did just as well as others, and saved up cash for IO's.
I used to run with the 'Short BUS Syndicate', a rag tag of people that played at +4 difficulty on most TF's, and we would spend hours on end comparing notes on slotting IO's for our builds. My global was @Delightman ;)
my main:
[img]http://faces.cohtitan.com/render/image/large/0/69141.jpg[/img]
[img]http://faces.cohtitan.com/render/image/large/0/77242.jpg[/img]
It sounds like the original poster's issue isn't necessarily "crafting" but the baggage that came with it.
IO's, set bonuses, and purples could have all existed without crafting, and as these were the elements he didn't use and objected to, that wouldn't change much. These kinds of things give people methods to marginally improve their level-capped characters over time, maintaining their interest in the characters they invested in. Unfortunately, people who opt out of that gameplay at the top lose out on these incremental improvements. Then again, people that decide to stop leveling at 40 lose out on advancement opportunities as well... its a choice.
Infact CoH's crafting was one of the cheapest crafting ever.
In other games you need to level up your gathering skills to collect materials to craft, you need to buy proper blueprints, recipes or have them dropped and you need to be at correct level of crafter to craft something and with increase of items worth so does the crafting time for it. (NWN and SWTOR made it a little more bearable but it does not change fact that you still need to wait for hours if not days to get crafted item)
In CoH you were not forced to collect things just to get better loot. You were not forced craft lots of same item just to craft higher level or useful ones. You didn't need to spend hours or even days for crafting one item.
I do agree with the OP that crafting in a superhero game does seem weird, (outside of the gadgeteer's realm) but I'd be interested in something that filled the crafter's niche without actually being "making things."
1) In many classic MMO's, crafting was in part a low-risk socializer's environment. They could engage in chat while waiting for their character to complete an item with minimal risk of harm to the character. In a way, the potential profits from crafting made this "combat downtime" less wasteful, as there was still a reward, even if it wasn't XP. Some games started to make crafting more interactive -- not only were the more combat-oriented bored sitting and waiting for an item to be completed, but it was by far the most bottable part of the game, leading to aggressive gold-seller-participation and market abuses . (I recall EQ2's "game" where you had to click the right button to counter a screen effect or suffer a quality/damage penalty). This had the side effect of making the socializer have less ability to just chat away while crafting was going on, and many of the socializers hated that aspect.
CoH avoided some of this by making crafting more or less automatic. If you have the inventory and recipe, you click to make it. If not, you search the market. Very little time when you "aren't doing anything." It was still very bottable and didn't serve as a social foundation at all, but it was quicker and required less downtime for those that wanted it "done and over with."
2) The collection of components and recipes of various rarity lets the developers provide a faster "reward rate" to users during play since these rewards are sub-components of a usable item, rather than always dropping a usable item. It seems somewhat manipulative, but studies have shown a sweet-spot for reward pacing, even if the reward isn't directly or immediately useful (or useful at all). The necessity to use markets to exchange or buy missing items becomes a social element of value.
So, how would we offer "crafting" without actually "crafting"
- part of this may be filled by update #50 in kickstarter- finding Leads. These are "rewards' that have trade-able element, and are subcomponents of something bigger. These can be found in-game during play (a "reward drop") or through the use of certain emotes or remaining in certain locations (a "downtime drop" that lets you socialize and still get something).
That's proposed for questing, but the same model makes for interesting opportunities that fall more into the "crafting (gear)" realm:
- Imagine you have an enhancement system like CoH. You have a power, and as you master that power, you get better at it (enhancements). After battling the Mongrel Horde, you get an idea (a subcomponent of an enhancement) along with several others during subsequent battles. You take these ideas with you to a dojo/danger room and develop a "Technique" (a specialized enhancement with bonuses) that you can apply to your powers or train to others (trade). Maybe you don't make a general improvement to your powers, but instead focus on a specialized attack against a type of foe (a targeted debuff or temporary self-applied buff). Nothing is "crafted" but it is essentially crafting by another name.
- During your adventures, you also encounter some interesting clues. They're rather useless to you, being more a dojo-type, but you happen to know some detectives that could use those clues, combined with others they've encountered through the grapevine- to expose something big- perhaps a weakness of a particular foe ( a temp power or temp "buff" against a particular enemy type). Again, not that different than crafting mechanically, but not "crafting" as far as narrative is concerned.
- Of course, there is a place for some true crafting in these genres... the gadgeteer, and there could be drops more specific to them....
One question would be whether you have "forced downtime" during crafting or some sort of mini-game to keep people moderately engaged or have it "instant." Does your character spend time in the danager room? can you log out in the danger room and get "credit" for training/crafting? do you make it instant and lose some of that visual effect emphasizing that you're not crafting? What about a mix that lets you choose to use the time for social purposes or play a minigame that shortens the development time?
For those who says crafting outside of gadgeteer or powered armor being odd in a superhero game.
Spiderman crafter his own web-shooters;
Magneto uses a special crafted helmet to prevent telepaths to mess with his mind;
Mr. Fantastic is not a truly gadgeteer or powered armored hero yet he crafts lots of things;
Many Heroes or Villians uses tools made by Hank Pym or Tinkerer which are not quiet gadgets or powered armors;
Doctor Doom's army of robots has nothing to do with gadgets or powered armors;
Tony Stark provided a special uniform to Spiderman which is not quiet a powered armor (and he did gave alot of small gimmicks like those)
Captain America's shield custom amde for him to use but it was not crafted by a 'gadgeteer or a powered armor hero'
Both Green Arrow and Hawkeye were making their own arrows.
yet most of these characters one way or other invents things that can be either used by themselves or by their friends.
Saying that crafting was only for gadgeteers or poered armored heroes is hugely mistaken and I am against gating crafting behind a power set which can't be taken by everyone or eat up their actual power selection.
Actually, if you look at this old chart, Common IO's did not start to really out perform SO's until about level 37 or so.
I was also probably different that others in another way, I was usually more interested in Procs and certain set bonuses and I liked those bonuses to stay in place even when exemplared. On anything but purples the set bonuses would be removed if your were ... forgot now.... 5 levels lower than the IO level, something like that. So I usually slotted enhancements near their minimum level or at the level the level that I took a given power, whichever was higher. So I didn't get as high a percentage as others might have, about the same percentages of increase as you'd get from SOs.
Completely agree, crafting is not necessary at launch. Heck, I didn't do any crafting till I'd been playing the game for quite some time.
[img]http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//9/94/IO_Scaling2.JPG[/img]
I don't know what chart you were trying to refer to, but the one on [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancement_Scaling]this page[/url] seems to have been pretty conclusive for me. A Common Invention Origin equaled the enhancement power of a +0 Single Origin of the same level at the Level 26 inflection point. You may have needed to get an IO up to Level 37 to match a +2 Single Origin, but that's as far as the parity could go. But on an even Level for Level basis, Inventions were just better than anything else with the sole exception of the 22-25 Level Range (in other words, blink and you'll miss it).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I *really* like the non-combat power set idea. Maybe one could craft stuff for bases (i.e. a wood worker, technomancer, whatever). I'd be all in for this.
Well I like crafting, and I refuse to be the same as any other hero or villain. If you take crafting out, I'll find another way to make my character stronger.
If your not stronger than your SG mates, maybe you should stick to being a sidekick. Crafting is what kept me from being bored when I couldn't level past fifty, I was the kind of guy who soloed a lot because I was working on my characters weakness, and the crafting bonus gave me the edge. I was the guy who played a defender with the toughness of a scrapper so I can live through the fight, so I can help my team mates. I was the guy who played the controller with the same toughness, so I can control and hold wave after wave of foes without my endurance getting so low that I couldn't keep everything going when my team mates needed me. I loved the caves, I loved fighting maltas, carnies, cots, and spiders, everything people hated, I loved. Why,? because what weakness other people had with them, it was not my weakness, every solo training that I did was to fight the foes everyone hated. I had no problems with endurance being too low, no problems with recharge, or accuracy or damage. What was my strengths, I made them stronger, and if I had any weaknesses I would build them up also. I do not farm, I do not and will not help anyone to power level, FRANKENSLOTTING FOREVER!! ( that's all I got, how you like that )?
In so many words, [I]give the player options, so that s/he can play like s/he wants to play[/I] has been repeatedly communicated by MWM as a core philosophy.
While the system was sometimes clunky, many folks enjoyed crafting. And many of those same folks, when they did not have time to run a mission, logged on solely to supply the market. I strongly suspect that some degree of CoX-style crafting will be in CoT; and if so, I just as strongly suspect that it 1) will be streamlined vs. CoX (that is, not as clunky/cumbersome), and 2) won't be the only method/sub-system available to boost/augment your skills/powers.
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([i]Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative[/i])
I always looked at this one: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/File:EnhancementChart.gif. I would be talking about using them at +3.
Well, they are working on fixing that as well.
Honestly, I'm willing to wait to see what happens. I did enjoy crafting, it added something else to the game. I'd rather it weren't out completely just because some though it was a pita. Everyone thought something was a pita and if we go we eliminate everything that someone didn't like we wouldn't have much of a game.
And even around 22-25, there were smart investments to be made in set IO's.
A multi-aspect Acc/Dam from a set is at 5/8 strength in each aspect, compared to generic IO's. That meant that two level 22 Acc/Dam's from two different sets were on par or marginally better than an equal-level ACC SO and an equal level DAM SO in the same slots. They wouldn't degrade as you level, were relatively cheap since most people ignored them, were available to slot slightly earlier than the SO's were commonly available, and meant you didn't have to worry about your enhancements "going red" as you rapidly leveled through the 20's.
Similarly, the 3-aspect set IO's were at 50% strength in each aspect, meaning that 3 of them would be at 150% slotting the 3 generic IO's.
Example of a HORRIBLE crafting system: TERA
TERA has a crafting system that includes not only Planned Obsolescence into its structure (ie. you can't get the materials you need for the on-level items until you have out-leveled the usefulness range of those items) in addition to making the whole system an Economic Sinkhole because everything you make is worth LESS than what it costs to make it (often times order of magnitutde less valuable in cash terms) so that there is basically NO Economic Rationale for supporting Crafting as you level. Crafting in TERA is just an economic black hole, from which nothing ... not even gold or superior crafted items are allowed to escape. In fact, the only reason to craft ANYTHING in TERA is for some of the stupidly Random Number Generator "Gated" Endgame Items that can come out of the crafting system once you're at the level cap ... but before that? Totally useless.
There are even "learn to craft!" quests in TERA where you're supposed to make batches of [b]25[/b] copies of an item (it only take 9 copies of an item to max out the skill gain for a crafting level) ... usually at a cost of several gold to pay for all the mats you'll need (which can only be bought from the crafting vendors by the tables, guaranteeing that you're going to be losing money hand over fist in order to do this) ... and then you need to deliver the batch of completed item to some yokel way out in the boonies somewhere because nobody's been delivering shipments out there lately. You can either mount up and DRIVE all the way out there on your own, saving yourself the taxi fare to get there by Pegasus flight ... or you can take the taxi and get there pretty fast without crossing the zones the long (slow) way to get there. When you arrive and make the delivery, you receive ... less money than the price of the taxi fare to this town. So sometimes for the LOW level crafting stuff (when you haven't got piles of cash burning a hole in your bank), you need to spend like 7-12 gold to craft "mission" items (less than half of which you needed to do for the purposes of advancing your skill level in crafting), which you then deliver for a whopping ... 0.1 gold in payout for completing the mission. The only thing that could possibly make this more insulting on the economics would be to put in a .wav file of a "Hanh, hanh!" from the Simpsons when Bart is getting taunted. Wash, Rinse, Repeat about 3-6 times PER CRAFTING LEVEL ... with the economic "punishment" for actually doing this getting worse each time ... and this is just a system that only a Korean Grinder could love. It basically exists to act as a money sink that gimps low and mid-level characters by devouring resources best spent elsewhere. It's just insane.
Now ... with respect to Crafting in City of Titans ... I personally would object to having a Crafting System for Invention Enhancements (let alone Invention Sets!) at Launch. However I [i]would not object[/i] to a Crafting System that granted Temporary Buffs to Players like those granted by the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mystic_Crucible]Mystic Crucible[/url] and the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Supercollider]Supercollider[/url] Base Items gave. Indeed, if City of Titans has a Crafting System at all, I'd recommend looking at doing a "Temp Buff Dispensary Service" FIRST before looking at adding anything more permanent (like Invention Enhancements).
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I heartily agree with crafting being optional, but there is no point if you don't get something out of it. On average, if you get something useful it's worthwhile and helps keep interest up. CO's original crafting system while not ideal had some good elements like items that could be made to sell or use that were on charges, non-combat pets,protections, heals, and some costume pieces. Some items (like wands) helped impart a degree of color; it would nice to have a crafting set that helped do this. To throw out crafting entirely seems heavy-handed and short-sighted to me, and misses an opportunity to add to the game. The Tech-Magic-Arms tree of original CO was on the right track, but the lack of development and later throwing out of the system to support gear mods meant it never met it's potential.
As for a "class" that crafts only look to CO's Gadgeteering tree to see how hard this is to do, there are several options in there to try to make a "tech" vs. "trickster" gadgeteer but all of it without the ability to change special effects feels not quite right, and the powers are cherry picked to fill out certain themes in Free-Form designs.
One thing about crafting is people are never really happy with it no matter what form it takes. WoW's crafting is one of the better ones in many respects as it lends both color and gives some nice variety (though I would never suggest gathering skills in CoT) ;)
Just remember - CoT is in the spirit of CoH, it is not CoH!
I very much enjoyed crafting IOs, particularly the Numina set. What I didn't like was when people gouged the prices at the Auction House. I actually liked when purple IO sets were for sale in the CoH Store.
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I loved IO's. It was tricky getting the recipes/salvage together, but *Damn* did it breathe life back into the game for me.
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I mostly enjoyed the crafting system, although there were some flaws that could have been improved. For example, having to click 'craft' for each item when you had recipes and salvage enough to craft 10 was annoying. An option for 'craft all' would have been nice.
And I agree that it seems that the OP's problem is only tangentially related to crafting. He said [i]'I chose not to use any sets on my characters and only used the occasional IO. I refused to run the same TFs time and time again, to "farm for purples."[/i] I suspect he would have had the same issues if, rather than recipes dropping, the enhancements themselves had been the drops. He still likely would have refused to run TFs over and over to get a purple enhancement, chosen not to use set enhancements, and so forth. That the items needed crafting rather than being ready to use is incidental.
Yea I didn't craft. I just bought stuff on the auction house. That's all I ever do in any game. I'll craft if I need to for certain things. Like in SwToR. To use the med pack with infinite uses. You have to have the trade skill to use it. And other games I picked up crafting cause i used it to make monies or let me make a purdy outfit. Like the exotic leotard in SWG. I was mainly a harvester. Either way. Crafting. No Crafting. In the end I'm still gonna end up at the AH buying stuff cause I'm either to lazy or just not in the position to farm the raids for the gear. Assuming its not BOP stuff. Then I'm kinda screwed. ^^;;;;
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I rather enjoyed crafting and the IO system myself, as you could with some planning create something greater than the sum of its parts. And the crafting system and uaction house were nice ways to pass the time if I didn't have the time to go out and do a mission.
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Personally, I quite enjoyed crafting in CoX - much more than in any other MMO. And I never felt it was required. I had several 50s that I never bothered to fully kit out w IOs. I pretty much built only those sets where I received the first recipe as a drop.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I had a Peacebringer, a Warshade, a Super Reflexes Scrapper, a Huntsman with a dual build of being a Crab Soldier ... and every single one of those builds SIMPLY COULDN'T FUNCTION on par with endgame content without being an absolute Mids' Hero Planner SLAVE to extracting every last drop of performance out of the Invention Sets! On my Super Reflexes Scrapper, I simply couldn't get anywhere even CLOSE to the realm of [b]NO GET HITSU!![/b] at the Defense Softcap without using a whole slew of Invention Sets. Super Reflexes for Scrappers needed about +15% Defense to Melee, Range AND AoE ... EACH ... in order to get to the Defense Softcap over and above their Secondary powers and whatever you could scrape together from Pools (I took Leadership for Maneuvers, Assault and Tactics, instead of Fighting for Tough and Weave). Without that much extra Defense from Set Bonuses, I'd just spend all day kissing pavement!
After Enhancement Dysfunction and the Global Defense Nerf, my Super Reflexes Scrapper (who I'd had since Issue 2) was just ... BROKEN ... using only SOs. It took the Invention system to repair the DAMAGE that had been done to her 2 years(!) prior ... during which time I very happily played WoW instead of CoH.
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I enjoy crafting in any game if it's complex and strategic; and especially if it includes an actual element of player skill and quick-thinking. I do not enjoy crafting how it was in City of Heroes. Random drops and farming. I think crafting can -definitely- make sense in the superhero genre as it does even need to be the assembly of IC objects. It's a system, how it is explained in the game world can be anything. It can be gathering energies to focus and specialise in certain areas of your powers. Anyway, crafting badly implemented is not something I'm a fan of. When it is strategic and complex, I think it's a great idea. When it requires player skill and quick thinking, that makes it something that MMOs have never done before.
Here's a thought. The crafting system could be implemented as 'training'. When you craft a damage boost for your fire blast power, it means you've been practicing throwing hotter flames. If you craft an accuracy boost, it is portrayed as practicing your aim. No need for the crafting or the crafted item to be considered an actual product.
And selling a crafted item? You're giving that other person tips on how to do more damage, get better range, etc.
I enjoyed crafting very much. It added an extra element of complexity to the game for me. At first i really didn't understand it but with time came to appreciate it. It is true however that the claim that the crafting system would not disadvantage people who did not go for it was not really accurate.
2)
I hope so. Reading through the comments, it seemed most missed the part about the PVP disparity. And IO toon usually end up better than an SO toon pound for pound same level basis. How do one tweak their build? Crafting. I personally didn't mind crafting, but if one didn't partake they are left with SOs.
Sure yeah the game was balanced around SOs and it's optional and stuff. But that doesn't mean one doesn't want to improve their toon or enjoy getting bounced around like a basket ball because they don't enjoy farming hoping for the drop or to have inf to buy it out right.
Saying it's optional is no different than in a pay to win situation where only way to get uber is to spend $50 a day and someone that don't have that type of cash have a problem with pay to win and get the response of well you don't have to be uber to scrape by in the game and if ya want an uber toon, spend the cash or settle for medium. Of course they don't have to spend the cash but is spending the cash the only or should be the only way? Or in this case should crafting be the only way?
Like I said I didn't mind the crafting part and it was cool to me, but of course everyone may not find it enjoyable. But aiming for causal play, what also go into that is variety of likes dislikes and variety of time thus there should be options. That way those that love crafting can craft and those that don't have a way enjoyable to them and the end result is the same instead of the usual "well it's optional" stuff. IMO, that is a cop out excuse because playing the game period is optional but if no one played, how long can an MMO exist without players?
Yeah I liked COX pre market pre IO before the grind stuff at the end and when COX was actually different from the rest of the games on the market throughout. After a while then came market then came IOs, then came grind then came farmers then came gold sellers it was just like any other MMO then just with super hero skin. Not because of these features but the way they were implemented. Just like someone mentioned WoW with the gear grind stuff. Gear is optional in that game too by definition and one could get by with mediocre gear too without raiding all the time, but because it's optional, doesn't make it better or dismissed the idea that it shouldn't be grind/raid all the time to get the best gear especially when it's not enjoyable.
For me I hated and dropped game for a couple of months before crafting and AH was implemented into game. Not too much of an altholic myself I only had 5 50's when CoH was shut down and there was not really anything left for me since I played through all stories in the game. Than crafting and AH came. My casual play time extended to collect enough inf first or just joining a tf or two per day. I was never a heavy grinder and only time I grinded was when Itrials were released and only first time a new one come out after that I was again return to my usual 2 or 3 hours a day schedule. CoX crafting was not even close to being as grindy as other games by just playing 2 or 3 hours a day before going to bed was enough for me to complete my two main toons and get other 3's a good amount to be finished. Ofcourse when they went freedom and put store I spended a good amount but I could easily do without it.
Most TF's could be done with just SO's... just didnt higher the difficulty. But for some of us, that wasnt enough. We had to be fighting purples to get that feeling of dominance. and I'm one of those. God knows how many billions i've spend Crafting IO's for at least 4 or more level 50's. I had a level 50 Corruptor that could scorch everthing in his way, named him Frikassee, and yea, he was a Fire/Kin with 48% Smashing/Lethal/EnergyRanged Defense. And others on team would just gaze in awe as he burn a whole group in 3 seconds flat. I miss him. :(
So...crafting was good because it let crafters be better than non-crafters?
Pass on that, kthnx.
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At this point, and assuming a "back to the basics" style of enhancement slotting like what the devs seem to be implying and/or Redlynne is proposing, the only things I can see crafting as any good for are:
[list][*]a means of generating temp powers, including travel powers
[*]a means of supporting a story arc (e.g. the Lost curing wand)
[/list]
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
One of the core reasons I loved using time manipulation on corruptors and defenders...was how they were so effective without any IO's. It was possible to get high defense vs everything and still rule on 8x mode with just SO's, because the set had alot of answers for anything you came up against. It's only weakness was endurance management, and the incarnate system was able to single-handedly solve that problem.
I think crafting systems in general detract from playing the game and roleplaying in the games, you spend 2-3 hours making stuff and not really playing it especially since the game isn't minecraft :).
That said about things like equipment if implemented, I don't mind things like mods and whatnot changing and augmenting functions of items, but I don't think one should have to gather x y z a b c ingredients to "make" them, just make em like a drop or something, especially since as a roleplayer, I ignored the components of all my enhancements when my characters did ever talk of how some of their stuff worked. Crafting in many ways, due to components, kind of tries to half forbid you from using your characters own canon and lore if you have it.
Because none of my toons actually used Rikti Alloys, Impervium and enchanted imperviums :). While some materials may be named in the game cannon by the story tellers of the games plots, thats ok, people like to come up with there own.
I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.
... [i]Yet.[/i]
You reminded me of another thing crafting could be used for. In fact, it's the first part of CoH that used crafting at all.
Bases.
So if I had [i]my[/i] way, we'd cook up a Minecraft-like system for putting things together to make bases, with enough potential that someone who is Truly Mad could implement a whole computer within it if they wanted (Revenge of ENIAC). And if I had a couple weeks or months to think about it and a couple days off work to write it up, maybe I could put together a detailed proposal like a certain friend of mine whose name starts with "Red" and ends with "lynneDEARGODHOWFASTDOYOUTYPE"...
Because the actual base materials that dropped all had silly names and concepts, little relation to what dropped them, and no relation to what you made with them [i]so why even bother[/i]--just make them either credits you could use to buy stuff and/or components with simple yet completely useless names (e.g. "red matter") that you could combine various ways into things like colored blocks to build walls and floors with, or lights with remote switches, or whatever--look in a 30 kg bag of Lego for a general idea. Just so I don't have to see another base with the SG name spelled out in ventilation grills.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
My suggestion is to be able to craft enhancements, buy them with in game currency and buy them from Cash shop.
This.
I found that CoH crafting was actually useful because it allowed you to fill in the gaps of what you weren't able to find during your adventures. Whereas in the other games I've played in the last year crafting is a long, tedious, frustrating process that gave you the same rewards you could just buy on the ah with the money you found adventuring.
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Don't know what you don't know. Only know what you know.
-The wiseman.
I come down pro-crafting as well. The system wasn't perfect, but between P2P auction house trading, and straight buying rare materials/IO enhancements with merits, there was plenty of ways to get rare IO materials that wouldn't drop for you. If you're still playing with a top level character but not taking advantage of all the influence and merits you're getting to make small advancements here or there, you're not really taking advantage of the endgame content. You can't really blame your SG for outpacing you.
I do agree that crafting was underused for bases. I'd break down my base crafting tables as soon as I was done with them everytime, because there was no real reason to have them active in the base using power and control constantly when they were used to make such a small number of things.
At least you didn't spend hours trying to max out your crafting skill. That's lame. Having lots of collectable stuff that you can eventually use to better yourself kinda just seems to give extra life to the game.
Crafting was optional, there are some toons that can quite happily operate on SOs, others are indeed gimped. I had an ice/elec tank that I never IOd but could solo decently fast on +2x8. PvP sure, you'll be gimped when compared to the 20BN spent monsters, but you'd expect that.
I'd have left CoH without IOs. Characters had more money than they would ever need, the game hadn't got boring by I9, but would have done within a couple of years I suspect.
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Sorry, Minotaur, but I had 180 characters and they did NOT have "more money than they would ever need". Only a few of them ever got IO'd. Doing a proper job of IOing cost a LOT of money... Or it required several weeks of patience, gathering materials. And sometimes you needed Alchemical Silvers and it didn't matter how patient you were, you were Not going to get them for a 'reasonable' price.
Be Well!
Fireheart
They have already stated that there will be aspects to the game for everyone, from people who like to design costumes, to PvP, to street sweeping, so I'm sure they have a path for someone who likes to craft, allowing mission arcs to open up rare recipes and components that may normally drop off of bosses found in raids or some such thing.
After the market came out, I never had problems with characters having enough money to get either generic or the lower-end Set IOs. I started every character with a couple million spare Inf from a level 50, and by the time they made level 30, they had more than enough inf to be handing it out themselves. It was accomplished very easily, at the end of a play session (or when the salvage filled up) hit WW, do a quick price check, anything that sold for more than at the vendor got put on the market for 10% over vendor price (or half of the "market" price if the market price was a lot higher than the vendor price), and sell everything else to the vendor. Took a couple minutes to check the market prices on everything and post them. No market manipulation or lots of time spent figuring out how to get an extra few points edge on the market, just check the price and either sell there or to a vendor, and there was more INF coming in than I knew what to do with on most of my characters.
Unless I was going on a TF, never bothered with anything before SOs, and between the couple million starting stash to buy stuff with and the average 10 million or more that I'd picked up just selling the stuff that dropped that I couldn't use, I never had a problem with full sets of SOs or crafting the simple IOs to make the toon useful. Could I get a good end-game purpled-out, 5 LOTG 7.5% and the rest of the uniques? Of course not, but if I wanted those, it was a simple matter of playing the toon after level 50 and follow the same process for selling the drops. (Obviously, the purples took a LOT of time this way, but I did it anyway). Over the last three years or so of the game, I started keeping a spreadsheet of the IOs that I'd crafted for toon builds, simply because there were so MANY of them.
To get the good purpled WarShade with all the toys, I finally consolidated a lot of INF from my other Lvl 50s, but only did that the last month of the game simply because I wanted to. If the game had continued, I'd have built up to that more slowly, rather than one massive upgrade toward the end.
I loved crafting in CoX. Honestly, it was one of the things that kept me playing the game. And compared to many other MMOs I played, crafting and loot in general did seem like a much more accessible system. Remember, CoX had none of the loot drama that's common in other games. No accusations of "ninja" looting. No "loot councils" or raid leaders making decisions that pissed off 20+ people.
I didn't go the set IO route on every character though, just the ones that were "special" or where I just had to try out a concept. To me it was another way of making my characters my own, or powerful, or unique. And I never saw it as mandatory in any way. Just a fun minigame that I could do or ignore as I chose.
Pro crafting here as well. Mids/IOs/crafting allowed me to tack RP/concept toons and turn them into vengeful gods able to carry entire teams. Not to mention stuff like +stealth -kb IOs. While temp powers are cool and all, I don't want to have a forced rerun of content solely for a needed temp. There may be RP objections for some folks as well.
-joe
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Joe, I'd propose that what you really wanted was "enhancements that work" and that crafting was just a means to this end.
Crafting temps removes the need for forced reruns, so long as the temps can be sold on the market.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Partly Lin. There is also some source of accomplishment that accompanies good long term planning and successful shopping forays. There can also be a rush when the RNG gods smile upon you and you get that last rare you needed to finish off your set.
I suppose one could set up a scenario where one could either craft or vendor purchase at, say 1.5x the cost to give a reward to those who take the time without making it required.
This discussion for me falls into the same category as several other threads hereabouts. The game we lost had more layers than an onion. Most folks did not care for one or more layers and would rather they did not return. Frankly simplifying things might make it a lot easier to get out a good game. But lets remember that our least favored layer may well have made the game for a good many other players. I would not hastily remove something like crafting.
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So Joe, I'd like to ask you to follow up with this point as being more a matter of degree, rather than a binary Yes or No type framing.
Are you saying that simply being able to NPC Vendor shop for Enhancements is "boring" but being able to craft [i]the exact same type of Enhancements[/i] would be an acceptable alternative means of acquisition for those Enhancements? Specifically, does Crafting have to be something that gives you an alternative (and therefore "better" somehow) ITEM? Or is it acceptable for Crafting to give you "exactly the same ITEM" but give you a completely alternate means of acquiring that same ITEM by use of a different method of expending "currency" (ie. Crafting Materials). In other words, do you want to have TWO Paths to get the SAME Item(s) ... or do you need to have TWO Paths to get DIFFERENT Items (with the Crafted Item being "better" somehow because it "has to be better" otherwise no one would Craft it)?
This sort of nuance is something that could have profound implications for an In Game Economy ... because potentially it might be possible to set up a Drop/Loot System that would dump out cheap Crafting Materials and have a "cheap" (in INF terms) way to Craft Enhancements once the right combination of Crafting Materials have been assembled, but then set the Vendor Price for the Enhancements that get "sold" by NPC Vendors to be "relatively high" such that it becomes difficult to afford (just in cash) a complete overhaul of Enhancements, making a mix of Craft plus Purchase a worthwhile way to tradeoff the "price" of acquisitions. Crafting would be a "hassle" of assembling the necessary materials and keeping the Inventory from overflowing or "locking up solid" but would be "cheap" in terms of Cash Spent to do ... while straight Purchase would be "expensive" in terms of Cash Spent because you're essentially paying a "premium" for the Convenience of just being able to BUY what you want without going through the hassle of assembling Crafting Materials to do so.
Mind you, setting up an In Game Economy that didn't pendulum swing in one direction and then [i]never swing back the other way[/i] would be a VERY GOOD TRICK INDEED ... and is not something that is all that likely to be done "right" the first time ... meaning lots of Balance Pass iterations over time to even TRY and get things to Balance (for a Market that is always moving).
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Myself, I fully recognize how much time I spent crafting just for those silly badges. I also recognize that it was an incredible time sink - which is why I think it was designed. I loved the market. Absolutely loved the market. It was a game within the game for me. Taking a character with zero influence to 2 billion influence - that was the stuff my dreams were made of. And then, the enhancement converters which could turn straw into gold, figuratively - then it was just far too easy - but possibly necessary for those that couldn't invest hours of time for specific IO sets.
I think Redlynne is on the right track on not having a crafting system set up at launch, but leaving it open to do later - if needed.
I'm kind of wondering if we even need to bother with enhancements at all. Let our actions dictate our powers effectiveness. The more we execute a given attack, the better our attack should be. But, I guess that would just make us all cookie cut builds.
Just my two cents.
Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese
I liked the system. Why wouldn't you put in a crafting system? CoH had one, and thusly, wouldn't the spiritual successor? Also, it gives you something to build towards, not to mention a bunch of players who liked it, and new players who would like it.
You may have felt weaker than those who used them, but you didn't NEED them to play in anything. And believe me, IOs didn't mean you won at PvP. The right powerset/AT went a long way in that department.
My suggestion would be to have the final items be identical. Anything else could create the appearance, if not the fact, of "pay to win". The potential benefit of crafting would be a lower out of pocket cost. For those with the time, to spend crafting at any rate. The flip side of this would be that gouging salvage for profit would theoretically be capped since the cost of finished product is a known quantity. Why spend 200 zenny* to craft and enhancement that can be bought outright for 175 zenny. But have the baseline estimated crafting cost be something like 50+salvage to make the effort worthwhile to those who enjoy crafting.
*bonus points for getting the joke.
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Similar to AJoe's suggestion, the benefit of crafting could be to craft the specific boost a player desires. Thus, rather than being entirely reliant on getting a drop, and even then getting the drop that is wanted or needed, those who craft could reach their goal more quickly (at the cost of using up salvage and paying any fee that may be attached to crafting).
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I'm actually all for crafting.. if it's done right.
To me, it's all about options. If someone doesn't have the time to do high end raid style content for those coveted enhancements, then being able to craft an equivalent is a nice alternative... Assuming the crafting doesn't require drops ONLY found in that high end raid style content >.>
If you add crafting as an alternative, make it something interesting... Like, say.. missions from crafting contacts that give rewards like crafting goodies, or tokens that can be spent in crafting 'stores'. This would also make it easier to increase the perceived 'difficulty' of having finally gotten that last doohickey and thingamambob needed for the uberlastic bandaid!
A difficult mission to get a rare crafting item is the same, to me, as putting in 6+ hours in some lag infested instance. I may not have 6+ hours to do that, but I can craft an item JUST AS GOOD if I do this story arc over however many days it takes me... I may can only manage one mission a day in this 6 mission story arc, but I know that in the end I get what I need for that coveted purple enhancement all the 'big boys' are running the raid for >.>
Shazam!
Youy misunderstand, I meant that before IOs when 2-3M was all your character would ever need for its entire life, people had more money than they'd ever need. That's what would have made the game boring after a while.
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Crafting is defiantly one of the harder things to balance in any mmo. If you can craft things that are just as good as rare drops then no one raid. Then there is the flood of items on the public market so that a worked good is worth less than the raw material. And there there are the somewhat dead end crafting paths that are full of junk but have a handful of novelties at the end. I played a hunter with the engineer craft skill back in WoW and I have to say that although it had a lot of bonuses for me overall it felt like nothing but a money sink. The only crafters that could make money were enchanters the rest just made stuff that would be never be useful as long as they did a healthy amount of instances. Only reason I stuck with engineering was that it gave me better bullets and the occasional scope. For me I see the only really use for crafting would be to make things that don't have a permanent effect on the characters stats. Bonus powers that are fitting with the craft level in damage output would be nice. Again back in my WoW days I had tons of bombs but they were never that effective so I just sold them to NPCs so if power crafting is available make them effective so that people will want to use them. An equivalent to inspirations would also be good including a resurrecting one because not everyone will have a healer with them. And having someone who can craft costume parts would be fun. This would give the ability for a heroes costume to advance as they played at give the option of seasonal costume pieces and making costume pieces from the trophys of your vanquished foes and not just display pieces in the lair.
Yes. Right. ::loud slow clap::
I think I understand that origins will play no part in the drop/crafting system, correct? That should ease a lot of problems. I'd envision a more generic system that would allow you to construct a custom enhancement. Like, I've beat up 100 baddies and collected 20 Yellow Drops, 6 Blue Drops. 2 Red Drops and no Green or Purlpe Drops. All of these are in a level range, say 20-25. So, I can craft Accuracy enhancements with Yellow, and I can reduce Endurance costs with Blue, and Damage with Red. Cool, so I have enough to craft a +2 accuracy enhancement that I can add to any applicable power. Or I can save up 'til I have 10 more; enough for a +3. I'll need 4 more blues before I get that Endurance enhancement, and so on. If there were slots for basic attributes, like Stamina or Strength, Maybe they'd have different color, rarer Drops that I could use to boost all my powers very slightly. Or I could trade some amount of one for any other.
Is this too simplistic? As I look at it, it does make me think about the "Inspirations" that would drop. Another thread, perhaps...
That's always the line, isn't it? "If you can craft just as good, then no one will raid!" Thing is; they will still raid. They will go for many reasons, not the least of which is the rare purple drop that they don't have to craft. They go for the company of all the other heroes (or villains).. they go to show off their leet skillz to everyone else. They go to talk smack in Vent or whatever other chat program they use. They go because they enjoy the epic battles.. etc.. etc.
So.. me getting my uber purple enhance cause I did a 6 story arc instead of going on the 6+ hour raid didn't mean the raid never happened. Just means I didn't go. And I should have that choice. I shouldn't be forced to do some content that doesn't appeal to me, or I don't have time for.
Shazam!
I don't enjoy crafting. I don't mind a series of missions, each of which awards you something that later you can smush together to make something else. I did crafting in COH because I felt I had to so I could generate some influence on the market. But, I didn't enjoy running around, buying components, crafting, putting them on the market, etc., though I was successful at it. I didn't have a lot of rich friends, but after my success on the market I did make sure to send a million influence to anyone who bemoaned on global that they couldn't afford to fix their costume.
But, if others enjoy it, I hope it's in CoT. Myself, I hope I can bypass it.
I agree with Becky. One thing that always chapped me about the raid content was time involved. I often didn't have 3+ hours to commit to the task so I got left out. I see NO difference, time-wise, in getting the reward for the 5 hour trial and getting the reward after 5 missions that each take an hour. Both are equal time sinks, both with the same reward. If you're worried about farming, put a cooldown timer on the reward so you can only do it once a day or whatever.
Saying I can't get trial-worthy prizes just because I don't have trial-worthy time to commit in one sitting is just plain unfair.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I agree, but someone will throw in the "If they can get it without raiding, then no one will raid" argument.
I believe people will do the raid for the "prize", and for all the other things that go with a raid.. company.. talking smack on Vent, etc... But.. I could be wrong >.>
Shazam!
I'm sure someone will throw that argument - but it's not one that applies to a CoH-like game. For example, in World of Warcraft, that argument is absolutely true... because a successful raid requires a great deal of organization, two tanks, two and a half healers, etcetera. In a game where you can make a successful run with whoever happens to be around at the time, there's much less barrier of entry to raid type content.
Still, I wouldn't mind if raids let you get the rewards faster... within reason. Incarnate content was a good example of a difference that wasn't reasonable; I forget the exact numbers, but soloing was something like a few hundred times slower...
Phoenix Rising Token Minidragon
Well, just so long as you will acknowledge that if you can get it solo, then the people who can raid, might well be able to get it faster than you (due to the double reward from doing stuff solo).
Saying that, I am waiting for how Wildstar plans to do it, seeing as they have said that Solo crafting WILL be a valid end game route (if i remember correctly).
The ones who will "win" this, are going to be those who have the most time available to play the game.
I can see something like this being done as an "either/or" reward system, where if you achieve it solo in X period of time, you *cannot* earn it (or equivelent) drop in the same period of time from the Raid, and vice versa.
And you have to remember, that not all raids are successful. They can end up spending time trying to get it, and *failing*.
So you should also have the chance to fail getting it as well (if solo).
Sure.. solo should perhaps have a chance at failure.. I see the solo method being just as hard, if not a little harder, than the raid would have been.
As for the whole "planning the raid" thing, I don't see that as a good enough reason to limit said prize to the big and honkin raid group.
Time vs Time. If it takes me 12 hours of staggered effort to get the Golden Monkey Statue, and it takes a raid of 40 people to get that same prize only 5 or 6 hours, I'm fine with that.
So the raiders say raid because the solo mission is too long.. The soloist say solo because they can stagger the mission across several days or weeks if needs be. Works out fine for me.
My objection to the whole "limit the best stuff to the raiders" is; I cannot block in a SOLID 5 or 6 hours of game time. I might play for 12 hours one day, but it is in no way a solid block of time. I take frequent AFK breaks due to arthritis making my hands stop functioning.
I have learned that a great many people are very unsympathetic to someone that has to AFK every couple of minutes to rest their hands... o.o
Shazam!
Back to the original topic of "No Crafting";
I would like to see crafting if only to add another option for getting X gear/enhancement/prize.
Done right, it would be:
Want the Uber Nickle of Doom? Great, you can either;
Raid: Spend 5 to 8 hours in a raid with plenty of other people, and at the end, you get a menu to pick something, and that Uber Nickle of Doom is there!
or
Craft: Spend hours every day gathering what you need and doing the Craft missions, and at the end of it all, you can craft that Uber Nickle of Doom!
or
You can go on these Elite missions that will likely take you all day, or several days if you break it up, and at the end you can pick.. yes, you got it! The Uber Nickle of Doom!
My point is; You have various options to get that very same reward.. each one has pros and cons.. Time vs Difficulty, etc. But you still can get it.
Shazam!
Apologies if I'm restating anyone's ideas, but I'm not entirely feeling up to reading through this whole thread first but still wanted to contribute.
I think crafting should be in the game but truly, properly optional - that is, there should be ways to get the end product without having to craft OR rely on other players crafting. And not in the way of 'well you can get it this way buuuuut it's really not feasible if you want this thing any time this century', either - maybe instead of purchasing/finding the components and crafting the desired item, you can snag what you want off a defeated supervillain, or get it as a gift from someone you've rescued. Or just straight-up purchase it from an NPC, maybe at a bit of a markup from what the components would be valued at, but purchasing at a set price from NPCs avoids the absurd inflation issues that the auction house in CoX had.
Formerly @TiamatXIII and @TiamatXIV
Infinity - Rinsha, Pearl Edge, Drachin, Spark Nova, and too many others to list.
yup.
Many paths, same destination...
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
5 to 8 hours in a raid? What is this madness?
[color=green]BIZZARO MEDIA FOLLOWER[/color]
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To those who claim that nobody will raid if they can get the rewards elsewhere I have three letters for you: ITF. The Imperious Task Force offered the usual drops and, the first time through, a costume unlock and badge. That's it...no fancy ITF-only swag to farm and nobody cared if you had the ITF Once badge or had done it a hundred times.
You know WHY people did the ITF endlessly? It was FUN! After you got to the zone (which required a mission arc), there was no real travel time, no stupid gray-hunting, none of the crap that made many of the other raids boring.
Ever play on a slide as a kid? Up the ladder and down over and over. Same game with the same predictable outcome every time. But it was FUN! Make the raids fun aside from the bling rewards and people will play it.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I know that a lot of people ran it (especially after the Incarnate system came out) because it was one of the fastest and easiest ways to get Incarnate shards.
Before Incarnates came out, it was used a (at least in my circle of friends) as a PL tool or for the speed runners. It was short and fast, which made trying for the Master badge quick and easy.
And when you have teams that can run it in 12 to 14 minutes (Pre incarnates)... it was fast. I know that even a "kill most" for shards in the ITF would take roughly an hour.
Ok.. so I'm used to WoW style mega raids that took most of a day to do (assuming you had a great group that knew the raid inside out.. otherwise, it took all day).
I keep forgetting that lately game developers have been making the "raids" shorter and shorter, with less and less people actually needed to do them. The ADDS Crowd has pretty much taken over, and we need fast fast fast, with no wait time or people will get.. *gasp* bored!
I remember attempting to do TFs in CoH.. and after doing 2 of them, gave up.. I didn't get to see the map.. or the mobs really. Everyone was "drop those suckers.. STAT!! Quick.. on to the next mobset.. we have NO time.. NO TIME!!!" I missed out on so much detail because of that.. why bother crafting a gorgeous map.. just make it plain gray walls and pretty much linear, then let everyone just hammer Lego (tm) style mobs. Saves time and effort on the Dev's part, and the players might not even notice >.> /sarcasmOff
But.. yeah.. Raids aren't what they used to be.. and I keep forgetting that and referencing "old school" style raids.. my bad.
Shazam!
lol. aint that the truth. Now raiding consist of sitting at the door and wait for invisible person to grab glowie.
"are we going to kill anything?"
Hard to find people that do raids and then even harder to find teams that seem to enjoy actually doing the TF and Most of the time it's rush through it, it's a chore, no time no time, don't kill anything and let the invisible person grab glowy and or TP the high powered tank to the end and kill the AV while everyone else is expected to stand around and basically be spectators, rinse and repeat 20 times.
I find myself repeatedly grateful for the groups I regularly hung out with on Virtue. While we'd do speed-ITFs and the like, we'd also do full RP-our-way-through-the-TF runs.
Yeah, it pays to have a group of folks who have a similar notion of how you want to run a TF (or content, in general).
I am pretty flexible about going with the zeitgeist of whatever team I am on, but I am happiest when the team isn't rushing for the end. So, as much as I am happy to play whatever hand a PuG might deal (figuring that out is part of the charm of a PuG, of me), I do also look forward to the SG TFs for a less random experience.
Global: @Second Chances
SG: Fusion Force
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
Virtue still stands for me as the benchmark by which I measure all other online communities ... and I haven't found one in another game that can measure up to it yet. Some have come close (Cassiopeia Server for Tabula Rasa, Celestial Hills Server for TERA) ... but nothing else quite matches Virtue.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
People are gonna hate me, but i actually enjoyed the way it was on CoH....
_______________________________________
Kovacs - Leader of "The Titan Legacy" SuperGroup
The First SuperGroup In City of Titans History - Come Be A Part Of It!!!
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/building-first-super-powered-family
People are gonna hate me, but i actually enjoyed the way it was on CoH....
_______________________________________
Kovacs - Leader of "The Titan Legacy" SuperGroup
The First SuperGroup In City of Titans History - Come Be A Part Of It!!!
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/building-first-super-powered-family
To bad Celestial Hills (and the player community as a whole) knew nothing of TERA's lore (note: I speak from my experience with RPing in TERA on Celestial Hills as a whole)
I always found it humorous when some player during RP told me "No, no, no.. you can't DO that.. it's not part of lore!!!"
Meh.. Lore is there to add flavor, not to be a hard outline of what you can and cannot do in the game. If Admiral Bunky and his fleet never sailed this corner of the world, but I say I saw his fleet right off the bay.. then maybe my character is flat out lying lol.. telling a fish story, so to speak. >.>
"Sure.. I was sittin right there on that barrel, watching Admiral Bunky.. Bunker is what we used to call 'em, cause he was short and fa.. huh? It's not in lore? Well.. I don't know who wrote that book, but his fleet was right there, plain as day! Or my name isn't Sasha Storyteller!"
lol
Shazam!
A major problem there was that in TERA, a lot of the Lore was basically an afterthought. The "fabric" of the Lore for TERA was really ... thin ... and often had plenty of holes left in it due to sheer incompleteness of development.
Hence why Elin are the Master Race of TERA, and why the Elin created the Popori as a food source (because they're TASTY!!).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
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