Announcements
Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2
Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.
It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.
To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.
Clearly the "mix" of people involved in SC versus MWM is different and I'm not going to bother defending one's "development tactics" over the other. Would've, could've, should've can be played all day long, especially considering neither SC nor CoT is technically a "launched game" yet. Sure it goes without saying that things would be different if MWM had SC's level of money, but they don't. Armchair quarterbacking either way doesn't help MWM.
As far as "having faith" in MWM goes the main thing that's kept me going so far is their refreshingly unusual stance on -not- focusing on making money as their top priority. Obviously their ultimate plan is to make a profit running a MMO and no one can fault them for having that as a long-term goal. But the fact that they aren't spending most of their day-to-day time trying to extract as many pennies from us as possible makes me think they are at least genuine in their desire to produce a game first and foremost.
Is that the best method a group like MWM can use to end up with a functional MMO? I actually have no idea. But I see no reason to give up on them now regardless. I threw a big wad of money at them five years ago so my current "skin in the game" is done whether CoT is released tomorrow, five years from now or never.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I honestly don't think it would be a bad idea to just skip the kickstarter all together (considering they take a chunk out of your funds), and just do what VO and SoH and Star Citizen for that matter are doing, and have an open funding page on their website. Not only would this ensure that they actually get whatever money is thrown their way, but it would allow them to make a singular one time hype push, with one nicely produced video of where they are now, and then let the money flow in as people discover the project, rather than needing to devote time to a month long focused hype push that would be required of a kickststarter. It is how SC raised hundreds of millions of dollars, by just allowing people to donate on their own schedule (and it helps that their starter packages are not cheap and they have a seriously ambitious vision, but that's beside the point). So I do think it would be wise to try to replicate this, maybe putting out a timeline of some sort (with major caveats that these are not fixed and could change dramatically depending on how things go), and giving access to the character creator and/or alpha/beta testing for a certain donation level, and then just leaving it up in perpetuity until release. As the alpha and beta are available, even more funds will trickle in as people are more willing to pay for things they can see, even more so for things they can try out themselves.
See my skepticism comes less from what they have or haven't shown (although that is definitely a significant factor), and more about how serious they are at being financially viable. As much as I wish we didn't, we live in capitalism, where especially in the land of MMOs, having a steady income is necessary to make the game viable. In the early stages, having a big chunk of money available to develop the game is also critical. So if they did have some small focus on making money, not necessarily extracting a penny from us at every step, but as I said above, an open funding page, then I would have much more faith, as I could see they are serious about making the game viable in the long term. Right now, I see no path to long term viability. This, in tandem with the lack of substantive updates, lead to my continued skepticism.
We all want the game to do well. Learning from another project that has a high degree of similarity but has accomplished much more in about the same amount of time seems a decent way to improve.
The fundamanetal lack of understanding that we keep running into here, is that many don't believe that SoH has actually accomplished more. They believe that what they have shown is just some canned assets, or as they call it "shinies", and that they haven't actually done that much. As I said earlier though, what they have shown is not just shinies, it's a proof of concept. They have heroes, made with their own costume creator system, using powers that they made themselves, fighting enemies that they made themselves, in a city they made themselves. Yes they haven't invested a ton of time into the lore or the underlying mechanics, and yes it helps that the person running the company is able to afford to pay people for at least semi full-time work on the project. But these are all excuses that are used to explain why one game is so far along, and another isn't. It's either not real progress, or yea it is progress, but they have the money to devote to it. Which rests the case of why people should be skeptical. You have money too, so it's a bit perplexing to see the discrepancy in progress. If it is not a real discrepancy, then prove it, otherwise this thread has proven it's own point.
Don't get me wrong - until I'm literally playing the game I will remain "skeptical" as to whether MWM can accomplish their primary goal here.
I'm just not sure how completely applicable equating something like SC is to CoT. Sure there are plenty of similarities and it's certainly arguable that things would be -different- if the folks at MWM had their hands on something like $200 million to work with. I'm just not 100% certain things would be "better" for us if that were the case. Remember there have been plenty of start-ups with boatloads of cash that have still failed. Having money can help make things happen faster but it's not a "cure-all" for creating a game we will ultimately actually want to play.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Don't worry, i didn't take that as an attack ^^ As my english is maybe too poor to really express what i wanted to say, i hope you didn't take that as an attack towards you ^^
But i can hear you can't become a believer until you see something concrete :) The only thing i can say is "be patient", because the faith MWM put in their project let us (the believer of course ^^) think thazt the game will be awesome. (maybe not at launch, but i a year it will be the best super hero MMO ^^)
[hr]
Suivez l'avancement du jeu City of Titans en Français sur https://titanscity.com
http://forum.titanscity.com | www.facebook.com/titanscity | http://twitter.com/TitansCity
[color=red]PR - Europe[/color]
I doubt anyone on these forums is questioning the devs dedication or desire to make a great game. Some take that and run with it, confident that their desire alone to finish the game will be enough. Others, like myself, want this game just as badly but need a little more 'proof in the pudding' by the time the 2nd Chance kicks off to give financially. I've not read a single person begging CoT to release big shiny videos sooner than they are able; just that they start showing what they are able to start building hype more than it is currently if we are really as close as people think. The MWM team is obviously developing this game in a different manner than most teams and they have their own procedures they're going to follow. I think it is because they are all volunteer that we aren't getting any official dates or timelines; you can't miss a date you don't set. Some devs are saying they are still hoping for a Fall 2018 chargen release but Fall is upon us and ends in 3 months...that's not a long time to get everything ready if, as some think, it will also be when they open the 2nd Chance. You need time to get the word out to reach potential players. I'm sure they don't want ONLY us on the forums to donate during the 2nd Chance, so they'll need to do some form of marketing and that takes time. Unless they aren't releasing the Chargen and 2nd Chance at the same time...which also doesn't make sense as they have so many new fans that weren't around for the initial Kickstarter and couldn't donate so they won't be getting access to the Chargen but are more than willing to pay/donate to get access but can only do that during the 2nd Chance.
Let's just be clear that no one's skepticism on these forums is a sign of bad faith in the team and a lot of the skepticism isn't even directed at the dev team but at other fans expectations.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
My main point Lothic is that SC didn't have a 200 mil paycheck magically appear for them. They started with a very successful kickstarter (just like CoT) which got them seed money to get started. The difference is that they continued to push marketing materials and giving players opportunities to contribute. Essentially they started having a "second chance" right away, and have never stopped. They've taken this money and put it back into the game. Over time this turned into what, four(I think?) major studios all with paid professional staff and many cutting edge advancements in the game industry, not to mention verifiable constant proof of progress and something fans can play.
CoT started out the same way, but had a different strategy of "stay mostly silent" for the last half decade. They are running out of a mini tower in someone's basement.
I'm not saying they need a time machine to go back, just that perhaps it is worth considering what could be improved going forward. The idea mentioned in this very thread about having an open contribution portal on the website is not a bad one. Investing in quality marketing and related staff is another big one.
Saying that CoT could be further along if they had a SC sized budget is my point here. They could and probably should have a bigger budget. There are definitely people out there that want to see CoT succeed. Staying silent has not done them any favors. Make noise, get seen, get attention, get money. Invest it back into the company.
We do have a small focus on securing funds/: we do have a link to our store for a few items (mugs, shirts), we also have our pattern for our HiJinx comic.
One of our business team’s decision was to not just ask fo donations until our second chance. Until then any way we would receive funds would be to provide something of value (an item or entertainment in this case).
Sure, we could grab marketnplace assets, slap them in to the engine with a smaller map, a barebones UI, get rid of 90% of the customization and a bunch of specialized mechanics, and we would be in an “alpha” state already. But we are trying to do something things here that are rather unique and we believe will eventually set us apart and offer something to people who are interested in high customization of characters, deep stories, and depth of play.
Working as a group of volunteers is a lot more difficult than being a dedicated paid team. People walk away without ever checking in work, people disappear for stretches of time, people work in different time zones, have different days of availability to collaborate, jobs come up which take more time away than people have to spare when they also have a family. I can’t tell you how often I have had tonreeuce my production becuase my wife and kids need a dad some evenings after I’ve worked my paying job, or how often Inhave to reassure my wife that all this volunteer time will eventually be worth it.
I’m not offering excuses, just explaining the reality of our situation. We have been far from perfect and could have done (or avoided doing) quite a few things differently.
But when people make certain comparisons, I honestly believe they are onlycomparing what they see without comparing how and why. The devil is in the details as the saying goes. A healthy amount of skepticism is good for us to have. It keeps us devs working on the game on our toes though.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I honestly don't think you guys make any excuses, it's others who make excuses for you. You are pretty consistent and adamanant in your approach of "it will be done when it's done, and we're doing the best we can". Which is fine. However, I do wonder at what point you will be changing gears? Will you or anyone else on the team ever become a full-time employee, or will this always be a part time endeavor for all of you?
From what i know, that's one of the goal of the 2nd second chance. Being able to hire some people in a full time job. That's what was said during the Pax West (http://titanscity.com/conference-pax-west-infos-pagaille-city-of-titans/ or listen to the interview directly on the MWM youtube channel : https://youtu.be/57L8-52BBo8)
[hr]
Suivez l'avancement du jeu City of Titans en Français sur https://titanscity.com
http://forum.titanscity.com | www.facebook.com/titanscity | http://twitter.com/TitansCity
[color=red]PR - Europe[/color]
TitansCiry has it correct. All of us who volunteer are also employee-owners of the company. Meaning we have shared in the company. When the company’s value rises, thisenshares rise in value.
Some may choose to sell allmor a portion of their shares and walk away with compensation for years worth of volunteer time.
Others may be hired on by the company which can then afford to pay them as well.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
We can only "assume" CoT would be better off with $200 million in the bank.
Again like I said it seems easy enough to speculate that things would be easier for MWM and that the game would be farther along than it is now. But without being too negative and/or accusative there's always the chance that the folks of MWM could have "fumbled" that much money and squandered it. Money is no real insurance against the chances of vaporware being then end result of any development effort.
Sure as expectant players we want to play the game ASAP and more money could have possibly helped with that over the years. We just have to be patient enough to realize that the 5+ years we're talking about has already passed us by - it's not like if MWM was magically given $200 million tomorrow that CoT would magically launch the day after. Money can only do so much.
P.S. The one thing that people forget about Star Citizen is that it was organized by [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Roberts_%28game_developer%29]Chris Roberts[/url] who was already a big-time game/movie producer (i.e. Wing Commander series, et.al.) so they already had his clout and connections in the industry. I hardly think people would have donated quite so much to the SC effort if there wasn't already some expectation of what Chris Roberts could deliver. I don't want to sell MWM short but quite frankly MWM lacked that "industry connection" that was already available to SC via Roberts' involvement.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I get it if some people want something more concrete before they contribute money. I think MWM gets that too, which is why they have repeatedly said they want to give us something concrete before asking for any more money. I don't see what the problem is here, unless the expectation is that we have more shinies [i]now[/i], rather than when MWM is ready.
I can't remember if you had already joined us on the forum when MWM asked us what we thought of Early Access, but the majority response was that we'd rather wait till the game was done.
I agree that a Kickstarter may not be the best model for the Second Chance, because of the inherent 'reach the goal or the project dies' structure of a KS campaign. I haven't heard from MWM that there's a specific amount of money that is needed to allow the project to continue, so I would definitely lean towards a sort of funding page with tiered rewards but no ultimate goal. I think the risk of bad PR from a 'their Kickstarter failed' story when the project is actually continuing is more dangerous than a few people having doubts because they haven't seen enough videos of the game yet.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'm gonna have an aneurysm if people keep referring to substantive proof of concept updates as "shinies", lol. Yes, there is a lot going on behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean that showing it off when it all comes together is just a superfluous luxury. It's proof that the game is getting somewhere, namely, closer to our screens and fingertips. I'll reiterate one more time, what people keep referring to as "shinies" is proof of concept, i.e. proof that there is a game coming together, and not just some disjointed aspects all segmented from each other, as we've mostly seen thus far.
Of course I don't think they should release these sorts of things before they're ready, but it's a bit perplexing when things appear to be going backwards in some cases. They say they can't show any real combat footage (even though they have in the past) because they don't want to show stuff that isn't theirs. So what do we have then in terms of combat mechanics thus far? How close (or far) are we in the development process? The main frustration I have is just not knowing hardly anything in terms of where things stand. These so called "shiny" videos would do a lot to illuminate where things stand in the development process. With other games, we know exactly where they are. This one, not so much, which is extremely frustrating.
Yea, have to agree with this. It would be nice have a broad overview of where different systems are at. A good example is a post I made about 2 months ago about what is still missing for launch and ConundrumofFurballs gave some good info:
It would be nice to have an overview like that for the various different systems. I would hope that this far into development this wouldn't be a crazy request.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Realize that this “disorganized aspects all segmented from each other” is how we are rather forced to work because we are not a single studio in a singular location.
The technical term is called modular design. In the past as pieces came together we would encounter all sorts of issues that caused additional delays. With the new plug-in capability of the engine we can connect modules together faster, identify issues easier, and thus resolve them faster when they occur. All withoutnthe cascading efffect that would happen previously.
]quote=Kid]Of course I don't think they should release these sorts of things before they're ready, but it's a bit perplexing when things appear to be going backwards in some cases. They say they can't show any real combat footage (even though they have in the past) because they don't want to show stuff that isn't theirs. So what do we have then in terms of combat mechanics thus far? How close (or far) are we in the development process? The main frustration I have is just not knowing hardly anything in terms of where things stand. These so called "shiny" videos would do a lot to illuminate where things stand in the development process. With other games, we know exactly where they are. This one, not so much, which is extremely frustrating.[/quote]
The videos ofncombat were m, in essence, grey boxing prototypes. Various mechanics and systems were being tested in those videos. These are appropriately “proof of concept”.
But the assets used were not all our own (some of the videos did use our building system and such, but others didn’t). One even used a unique system one of our devs made for making signs (like street signs and others). Again, all for testing the prototypes. Those videos didn’t use all of our combat systems and mechanics either.
It isn’t about going backwards at all. Those videos were baby steps.
The main reason who doint go into detail of where each module is in progress is because of the nature of our studio. I hate to bring this up again, but when you have volunteers working on their free time - you don’t necessarily have dedicated, structured time.
This is why we gave a broad date for release of the Avatar Creator. Becuase if the nature of our fluxuabting work hours across different teams, we have to have a very loosely applied range of time to complete modules )ornoieces thereof).
And things have happened where someone was working on something, life happened, they didn’t or couldn’t check in work, and we were forced to start over from scratch. This doesn’t happen in a mornal work environment where all work stations are centralized. It is the nature of the beast we love with in our virtual studio. It causes us as much frustration as it does our fans who want more from us than we can give in the way we would want to.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
They've already indicated that calling it the second "Kickstarter" is just a convenient phrasing. Part of what they've been setting up in getting ready to do the "2nd Chance" (which is their more accurate term for it) was the online business framework to allow them to run the campaign in-house, without having to actually run it through Kickstarter, and thus avoid their hefty fees.
If that has changed, or if I'm wildly mis-remembering, someone will quickly point it out.
Basically, until launch, the answer will always be that they are volunteers so that means they can't give any details of where they are progress-wise. I mean, they couldn't even confirm that the already 4-week delayed update will be this week so we're not likely going to get any information on progress or timelines. I honestly dont know why so many fans are thinking the game is close to launch...they arent even ready to make a simple combat video using only their assets. I'm not bashing CoT either, just pointing out fans are getting confused thinking they are further along than they are.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Personally, I thought they were close because it's been 5 years since they raised half a million dollars, and they had videos in the past of combat and some completed levels. You're right though, it's gonna be a while till they are done, so no need to get our hopes up I guess. At least not until they decide to focus on the project full time.
I can say this much, we are much, much further along than we were just 6 months ago. A lot of progress has been made on multiple fronts.
But the case has been getting the avatar creator out this fall. And other additions to the game after that.
As you can see even our alpha won’t be done in the traditional sense but done in a manner that suited our unique virtual studio.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Bringing on marketing staff, even as a volunteer, to simply make videos and post on forums and social media would be a big step towards getting ready for a release that could bring money in.
Marketing is a really important investment in pulling that off. The project needs forward momentum, and that means more engagement. Even if the team isn't ready for the alpha (or whatever you want to call it) release, get people excited and open up donations. Bring in cash, use that cash to bring your best team members on full time, make a push towards that release and flaunt your progress. Repeat the cycle.
We have and continue to take on volunteers for PR and marketing. It isn’t as easy to work in a virtual environment with people from different time zones, to get collaborative work like a marketing video out.
I described this process up thread as well. We won’t be doing any marking videos until we are ready. And the decision was made to only show stuff that was completed using only our assets. Any incomplete, prototyping videos are meant primarily for backers.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I have to disagree with you that those kinds of videos show as much progress as you imply they do. It's fairly easy to write the bare minimum of mechanics needed to show of the situations/aspects presented in the videos while keeping the implementation of the truly "needed" mechanics in the future. Heck, it could be that those mechanics are purpose built to show those specific situations/aspects and needs to be rewritten to be applicable in a broader sense. it doesn't say anything about the state of the code in regard to how easy it is to make mechanical changes and additions, a.k.a "future proofing" it.
The dev-model that SoH has chosen is one I call "outside in", as in that they begin with the more "customer facing" parts rather than core parts. While videos may show progress in that you can do "more stuff" and such it hardly says anything about the underlying mechanics and the state of the game's core itself. I also fear that is has a too high chance of ending up in a similar situation that CoH ended up in, that is that chances that should be trivial (purely DB-value chances) would take actual code chances, possibly to the point where it's not worth making said change. CoH had that problem with when they wanted to lower the level where we started getting 3 enhancement slots.
Sure, I fully admit that it is possible that the videos are actually representative of the state of their code in regards to their end-goals but it is not a given that it's always that way. And that is the main reason I call them "shinies", at least that early in the development of a game. The faster they can push out their first set of videos the higher the chance most of it done with third-party modules and "canned" assets, and while that is not necessarily a bad thing it gives me a sense of that they don't care that much about making "their" game but rather just "a" game. I actually kinda get that feeling from SoH since it seems they are just doing "CoH in space" with a minimal of additions and changes.
Your critique of SoH videos as "shinies" may be accurate, but due to the nature of how CoT has already approached development, any videos they put out would by necessity not be shinies, since they are already doing (supposedly) the work on the underlying mechanics first. So even if your criticism of whole system videos is legitimate for SoH, it is not legitimate for anything CoT would put out.
In any case, I don't think it is legitimate. There are two aspects to any game, the mechanics and the visuals. Which is to say, the stuff that you see on your screen, and the stuff that happens behind the scenes to influence the stuff you see on your screen. Both are critical. If you don't have the visual aspects at all, you're basically just playing DnD. That's not much less than where CoT is now, from what we can tell. Only once you get the visual stuff in place does it actually become a video game. Yes the mechanics stuff takes work, and some changes may need to be made to the visual stuff once you implement the mechanics, but that is how any engineering process goes -optimize one component, then optimize the other, then reoptimize the first, etc. Do you really think that even though MWM is primarily working on the mechanics first that once they tie it to the visual stuff it's going to be perfect and they won't have to make some adjustments to make it right? It's simply two different development strategies. From a marketing and hype building perspective, the visual first approach is much much better, as people can see "hey, yea, look at that, cool!". Very few people are going to read through pages of lore and proposed mechanics and get hyped.
So it's only shinies if there is no actual gameplay that comes from it. See what Golden Girl is going with H&V for a good example of what shinies actually are. If instead, there is actual gameplay to it, where you can use powers on enemies, and a physical city you can run and fly around in, then I would argue it is less shinies and more just the visual component of the game. Again, having that is critical. If I wanted to play D&D, I would just do that. I want to play a video game though, so the visual aspects are critical.
I don't think you're right about SoH. If I remember right they started development at the beginning of 2016, so nearly 3 years now. That is a few years later than CoT started but if you take into account the fact that they are a paid workforce working full-time it is very possible that they've actually put in more hours to the game than CoT has since they are all volunteers who work day jobs and have to find a few hours a week to dedicate to the game( I would guess that's the average for their team). So, although I'm not a fan of SoH for different reasons, it is very possible that they are further along in their coding than CoT.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
They started late 2016 which was a father and his adult sons working on concepts (preproduction) ideas.
They didn’t start with more of a dev team until 2017.
I could say plenty about how they are doing what they are so quickly but it could be viewed as bad mouthing them and I don’t want to paint that kind of picture.
Keep in mind that they had more of an advantage that we did stetting out with UE4.
When we stated there wasn’t a Merket Place. Multiple engine features were even in the pipe line for production. And they are managing a smaller design scope than we are.
Heck just getting the size of our city map working in UE4 was a feat in of itself. When we started building out the world level the engine wasn’t designed to handle the size. There have been times Epic told us to hold off on trying to code a system for the costume creator (on the character itself) because they were working on providing that feature natively. There have been (at least one I recall directly) where we went to Epic for help and they thought what we wanted to do was a great idea to provide as part of the engine (so yet again, holding off).
We were, literally one of he earliest adopters of UE4 and there have been growing pains we experienced that others never have.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Oh I'm definitely not arguing that they are doing a better job than CoT, I'm only saying that they have a full-time team that could rival CoT's man-hours put into their game because of that. And, like you mentioned, they have the advantage of using a marketplace that you guys didn't have and have actually helped build. Like I mentioned before there are multiple reasons why I'm not on SoH's forums and why I am on CoT's forums. Even if they release first I plan on waiting for CoT...despite how impatient I am or how cynical I may seem sometimes. My argument is never against CoT..it's against us fans expecting more than we should at this point in CoT's development. I fully agree that the sheer scope of CoT seems to dwarf SoH, along with the 'physical' size of the world, aesthetic decoupling, etc etc etc. I'm abrasive...i get that, but I'm behind CoT 100%.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
This is great info, thanks for sharing this. Talking more about these facts publicly would be very helpful for allowing people to understand why you are where you are currently. It does seem that the expansive vision you have for your city has some pluses and minuses, compared to the more modular zone approach that SoH is taking.
One thing that you mentioned leads me to ask: is it fair to say that you have the bones of a full map in place? How close (or far) are you from the map nearing a very basic state of completion, such that we will see some videos or images with characters running around/posing in different areas? Just your mention of the map size brought the question to mind.
I’m not at liberty to say how far along the map team is. Im only tangentially connected with them when it comes to issues involving game play.
And it is our PR teams’ decision when it comes to setting up videos for promotional pieces.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well, I tried.
Any KS game is guilty by association, so they all must prove themselves regardless. The public perception of a KS game will always be shaky at best. People are shaky on SC, and that game generated record breaking funding.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
On the other hand I am on the map team. The repo issues froze the current pass on the Pharos neighborhood until it was resolved, but now I am back on that.
We greyboxed out the city several times. To figure out the best placement. Next is conforming the landscape and then adding the sublevels for future addition of base locations, mission maps, etc.
People could run around it right now, but everything is boxed out rather than the finished models. The reason why is because switching is actually quick, so we want to finish other areas before pulling the trigger, letting other areas be developed, add more art assets, etc.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Thank you for the update! Appreciate the work you guys and gals are doing!
Good to know, thanks!
As an aside, probably not the best place to mention it, but I do have landscape design skills, so if you need some help on that aspect at all, I'd be happy to help in any way I can. Lemme know.
Always can use help on that front.
You can reach the right guys to talk about it at contact@missingworldsmedia.com
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Couple thoughts here. Firstly, good for you Kid Rad for offering to help! I hope your talents are needed, appreciated, and available at the right times.
Secondly, if you do get it... you KNOW who we're gonna pester for info right? :D
Seriously best of luck!
This comment really stood out because it's stands totally at odds of my own impression of what an MMO costs to develop. I know nothing at all about the actual business of games development, but I do cost software projects for a living, so I've done a very rough and ready costing for what you'd get with $650k developing professionally, using some off the cuff (very conservative) assumptions:
90% of budget to staff costs, 10% to tech and tooling.
Project team average salary is $55k.
Real cost of employees (for payroll, having an office, heating and lighting that office, sick pay, holidays and all that stuff) is a factor of 1.9 (this is a pretty standard factor for the UK).
So you get 5 1/2 people for a year.
Call it six.
You think you can make an MMO in a year with six people?
If I was going after a budget for this I'd want a team of 20 for four years, so I think you're out by a factor of 13.
Funnily enough, I then googled CoX's development costs, and apparently it cost $7m. Maybe I'm not completely out of the ball park.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MM3LQOoVWgg/U3fOxT66u4I/AAAAAAAAGaY/SxLKwehFWJM/s1600/fearandl_tpb_graph.jpg
Now for MWM they have no staff costs, so making a $7m game on $650k is actually possible. The thing is, it's a volunteer passion project. My rule of thumb is if a dev is working on something they love, the quality will be outstanding and the task time will be double normal. If we take a 4 year dev time for an MMO (That's conservative. It's really hard to tell as studios usually don't announce a game is in development until 3-4 years in and they aren't honest about how long they've already been in dev) that means I'd expect CoT to take 8 years. I'd say things are going very well when matched against that expectation.
For what it's worth, Lost Ark (a MMOARPG) is going into open beta in November. It was announced in 2014 but has probably been in development since at least 2013. It's being developed by a professional studio with a budget of $90 million. (Source: [url=https://massivelyop.com/2018/09/17/mmoarpg-lost-ark-will-finally-launch-in-south-korea-on-november-7/]Massively OP[/url])
So, no, you're definitely not completely out of the ball park. Developing MMOs takes time and it's [i]expensive[/i]. Given that CoT is not that far behind Lost Ark, working with less than 1% of the budget, I'd say that MWM is doing phenomenally well. And that's assuming Lost Ark hasn't been in development since before 2013.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
If you want a more modern MMO to compare to, Camelot Unchained appears to be in the $12-$15 million development ballpark, having landed private investment of a reported $7.5 million after their Kickstarter. Remember, CoH began development in the late 90's, so costs have changed over the interim.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I wouldn't think that finances is what would be holding CoT back; if they needed more money they probably would have already done the 2nd Chance and/or created an open donation system that was hard to miss on the website. I realize they have their comic and like shirts and stuff...but it doesn't really seem like they're pushing it too hard. And I would imagine their work is atleast equal to any paid dev team in quality. They have the software so there's no reason for their work to be subpar...and everything they have shown so far has looked great.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Don’t be mistaken, funding would go a long way to hiring on full time people and help production.
The reason we haven’t done either a 2nd chance not open donations is becuase the decision was made that we won’t seek additional funding without immediately providing something in return.
Like what you see with the t-shirts and comic patreon. You provide us some funds but also get something in return.
Which means that while we could use funding to proceed at a faster pace, because we aren’t going to seek additional funds with nothing but promises, we take a harder (read slower) route toward that second chance.
Even then given the time we started from the KiS until now is almost 5 years. Usually from preproduction to live (gold) an mmo can take 5-7 years. We’re still within that range.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I wasn't making the argument that funding wouldn't speed up development, only that I don't think it would have a big effect on the quality of development. Even without the same financing as other MMO's you said yourself you're still in the same time frame as full-time teams. I guess I could be wrong there but I was agreeing with Tranquil Flower:
The real, unanswerable question is how much development time is left. That will, after all, determine if you end up being in the same ball-park (time in development) and give (maybe) a decent picture of how much money might have helped. If you're really only a year or two away, staying in that 5-7 year range, then I'd argue that money wasn't as big of a drawback as some think. If you're still 3+ years from releasing a full, complete game then sure, in that case I'm certain money could have cut at least a year or two off that.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
This made me laugh, because it's so true! Not that I'm saying MWM folks are like this, but in my experience usually those passion projects also take precedence over mundane tasks, like washing the dishes or even personal hygiene. At least based on some of the programmers I've worked with. One had an empty but unwashed lasagne pan at the side of his desk for months.
Spurn all ye kindle.
...
Damn
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Another dude had to be told by our boss when it was time for his monthly bath/shower.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Looks at his growing list of house chores...damn indeed.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
QUICK! TO THE LASAGNA PANS!!!
It was said that Ben Franklin only took actual "baths with water" about once a year, whether he needed it or not...
He preferred what he called "air baths" where he'd just open up all his windows/doors, strip down to his birthday suit and just let everything "air out". Seems reasonable enough to me. ;)
Ironically it was said that the air baths might have been indirectly helpful because they allowed for fresh air to blow through his rooms which may have prevented at least some of the colds and flu that others suffered from in their stuffy houses of the time.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm pretty feral in my natural state, but I'm married, so air baths aren't going to cut it ;P.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
This made me laugh pretty hard.
Whenever I have something hanging over my head that I have to get done, like homework when I was in school (or grading homework now that I teach it) I tend to find busy work to do instead, like washing dishes, cleaning up the floor, etc. I don't know why, but it's as if I know I need to be doing something productive, I just don;t want to start doing the thing I'm dreading having to undertake, so I do easier busy work instead.
The dirty lasagna pan, if it were mine, woul dbe a sign that I actually look forward to doing the programming for the game more than thinking of it as "a lot of hard brain work I have to get done".
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Same.
My apartment was NEVER as clean as the week of final exams!
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
With regards to the OP, I just saw a comment on the latest update on Kickstarter and this guy said:
Personally I find this hilarious and extremely petty. I know I've annoyed the devs asking about updates but this...this is a whole new level of 'skepticism'. I mean, if this guy is a backer and wants to play the game why would he file a complaint and potentially derail the team with legal action, thereby either further delaying the already delayed project or, worst case, halt them in their tracks altogether? I might be annoying to the devs but I'm not skeptical about the game at all and am waiting for the 2nd Chance impatiently.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I doubt MWM would even need to get involved with a temper tantrum like that - I'm quite sure the "fine print" on the Kickstarter website would instantly tell that guy where he could stick such a "complaint" as that...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
California is one of the most litigious states in the USA, which is saying something (America spent 2.2% of GDP on tort cases, according to information that's already at least 6 years old). I'm certain the AG's office in Cali will welcome another frivolous complaint.
So much information available on the Internet. You'd think people would take a few minutes to actually look at it.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
If the guy want's his $5 back that badly I'm in for $2.
Even if he pursues it, I doubt he'd want to actually foot attorney fees that are likely an order of magnitude more.
Could have just said "I'm an idiot, and no matter what I'm going to stick my feet where my mouth is!" and gotten the same level of respect ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Well, I'm not sure about that, with how lawyers can be. That said, I do recall fine print on the KS.
Oh I'm sure there would be some lawyers willing to be paid to take on this guy's frivolous case.
But I'm also quite sure the KS fine print makes it clear that people who "donate" to KS projects have no legal right/expectation to actually "get" anything for their money, or at the very least have no right to get anything based on any kind of "fixed schedule" initially "promised" by the KS project. The Kickstarter webpage folks would be stupid if they didn't already cover their users and themselves like that.
In other words I'd be shocked if a guy like this could get an "official complaint" filed against a KS project for anything.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
People fail to understand Kickstarter is not a store where you pre-order items. A backer is funding a new creation and the obligation of the creator is to use the funds pledged to do everything possible to make that creation a reality. The creator is to be transparent in the process, giving updates all along the way to detail progress and also setbacks that may occur.
At the start of the campaign the creator gives an estimated timeline but that means very little because creation is messy and life doesn't always behave. The creator is not beholden to that timeline for those very reasons. The creator must make their best effort to keep progressing until the project is completed or it becomes obvious they will be unable to finish the project.
If they are unable to complete the project the creator must be transparent in making that decision, detailing the steps involved, detailing how funds were spent, if there are funds and/or rewards left and how backers will be compensated. That said, if a creator puts forth their best efforts and the project has been transparent with the process as determined by Kickstarter, there is no legal route a backer can take with a creator to recoup a pledge. Again, a backer didn't buy a service or good. They helped funded a creative project.
I've been on both sides as a very active backer and as a creator with three successful campaigns that raised tens of thousands of dollars. As a backer I've backed projects that ultimately failed. Most handled the failure ethically and I have no hard feelings over my pledge. Some basically took the money and failed at every step of the process. As a creator I succeeded on all three of my projects. It wasn't always easy. I committed to make these projects a reality and I didn't want to let the backers down no matter what it cost me.
I was a backer of CoT before I was a developer for it. I believed in the team even before I saw all the hard work that has been poured into this game, day after day, year after year. This game is coming. Believe it.
This thread reminded me of something I'd seen much earlier, so I searched again and finally found the [url=https://mmohuts.com/news/city-of-titans-kickstarter-interview/]source[/url] of my favorite devquote:
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I think anyone would be hard-pressed to prove that MWM is not doing exactly this. (I note that it doesn't say backers get to decide the schedule or topics for the updates.)
Spurn all ye kindle.
Its vague on purpose...as 'detail' is completely subjective if you hadn't noticed.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
People were hoping that the long delayed release would happen this week. nothing so far, looks like thats a no. what wa sthat "female perspective" that we were waiting for? Hopefully next week will see something.
The CoT Twitter said it should have been done this week. I guess that doesn't mean that they would share it this week. Dont hold your breath though, theres a good chance it will be a completely different update. I really dont understand why they dont share more news in the banner. This update is 6 weeks behind schedule now. In a few seconds they could let everyone know...hopefully the game isnt as behind as the updates.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I just kind of wish one of the devs would say its either coming out this week or next.
I really doubt they'd release anything in a Saturday, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say not this week.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I'm going to go even further, and say not this month. ^_^
OTOH, none of them are getting paid for this, and all are working on this project in their spare time, so usual concerns such as "normal working hours" don't really apply...
*crosses fingers*
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Check out the sweet update!
https://cityoftitans.com/content/what-we-do-project-update
Not sure I'd consider it a sweet update...some images and confirmation that the game is still being worked on. No dates, no new info besides a new website and a fat slider with a trench coat.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Look closer...
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Sure we can’t please everybody. But we just wanted you to know that we are still doing our own personal best, and we are further along than we have ever been. Can not wait to share what we have in store when time is right.
Charles Logan
www.cloganart.com
I've been told twice now to "look closer". That's not a good way to reveal things to fans. If you're going to put something in an update, make it obvious. If I have to decipher it and the only response help from the devs is to "look closer" instead of just stating what it is then I'm not going to get it.
And obviously you're further along than you have ever been...that is the case every. Single. Day. That's not giving the fans any new information. Besides whatever I should be seeing by "looking closer", this didn't have any relevant information as far as I'm concerned. At least nothing was straight on answered. The questions we're asking about a timeline and the 2nd Chance were dodged. I mean, if you cant give a date, especially this close to the release, why cant you say "for x reason we can say Fall 2018 but not x day".
It was basically an update saying you're still working...seems like a 3-word banner uodate. If the 2nd chance comes out and whatever 'big reveal' requires me to "look closer", I wont be donating.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
lmao... its fun figuring stuff out... FIND THE EASTER EGG
Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
Please share with the rest of the class the easter eggs. Zooming in at all on the jpg's is too blurry to notice any detail. There's nothing new in the body of the update besides a new website being made. It was an update to say they are still working but there's nothing new to share. We've already seen a chargen update with video that it's "coming together" so I have no idea what we are supposed to find by looking closer.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Dark Cleric isn't wrong. The whole "look closer" thing is annoying as hell. In general, I mean.
Human beings are notoriously bad at expressing ourselves clearly and honestly without these types of Where's Waldo challenges.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
It is fall 2018, so any day now for the char gen. I would like to see more costume pictures as we are nearing the end of 2018. I want to see the dino people. I am not a wheres waldo guy neither. I like to see it, then geek over it like the fish man people.
The fact that is October already seems crazy.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Yeah, it's October. The new [url=https://www.patreon.com/HiJinx/posts]Hijinx[/url] is up on Patreon, and the NYCC is next weekend...
BTW, who is it that actually writes the creator comments on Hijinx? Warcabbit? I ask only so that I'll know who I won't be seeing at NYCC because I'm on the wrong coast. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
So by my reckoning MWM has 81 days to release Issue 0 to backers, based on what they said in the last update. I hope that's enough time to get it ready!
Spurn all ye kindle.
Fall 2018 is 92 days long people. You currently have slightly more than a 1% percent chance seeing it SOON.
To reduce frustrations, don't plan on seeing until well after Halloween, that way you will either be surprised to see it earlier than that or only a little disappointed when it comes out after Remembrance Day.
Relax people, they are building it, and he will come.
At least with me it's not that I think I _should_ see it soon(er), it's that I can't find another example of an equally important release said to be so soon without giving a specific date. Now, obviously the answer I'll get is "MWM is unique, it's all volunteer, it's the first adapter of UR4 so there's unforeseeable problems, etc, etc" and I don't disagree with those...but for that same reason I am very doubtful of a Fall 2018 release. Again, not doubting the teams dedication or quality of work, but the odds really are stacked against them. I fully agree that once actually released, the full game is probably going to blow everyone away...but I think it's going to take longer to actually finish and release than most are willing to admit.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Wait, where do you get 92 days?
23-30 Sep: 8 days
01-31 Oct: 31 days
01-30 Nov: 30 days
01-20 Dec: 20 days
--------------------------
89 days
with 8 of those days already past, so I get 81.
Spurn all ye kindle.
"Fall" as "Last Quarter" is 31+30+31=92 days.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
But MWM said 'fall,' not 'last quarter.' Those are two different things.
EDIT: MWM can you clarify which you meant?
Spurn all ye kindle.
It's a close enough time line that I dont think it really matters, a few days in either direction is negligible IMO.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
Fair enough. I ask more out of curiosity than anything else.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Living in the Canadian prairies we count Fall as 12 days if you are lucky before winter sets in.
If we are lucky.
Do you feel lucky?
Well..do ya?
Hi. I'm Hope.
I don't think that "Fall" and "Last Quarter" are meaningfully different here. Given the holidays, there's probably little chance of anything coming out in the latter half of December... Any time in October, or the first half of November, or the first half of December would be my guess. Otherwise, one holiday or another might create extra headaches.
I'd be --really-- surprised if they launched Issue 0 on a week where they couldn't have "all hands on deck" to deal with any critical problems that pop up once a wider testing pool gets into the mix.
Since they're trying to hold to the Fall '18 time frame, I'm guessing mid-October is their current target, if things fall nicely into place. That would be the time frame that would give them the most elbow room. But if it isn't together and working by then, obviously they'll keep pushing later. I take them at their word that they still expect Fall, but realize that another event like the Server melting down could push it into next year. No one wants that, but...
Pages