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Perky breasts: CoX vs CO

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whiteperegrine
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...this artistic expression

...this artistic expression will be represented by the characters themselves. given we haven't seen them, or even basic idea/artwork, it is a concern. part of the glory behind CoH was that it was not really rooted in any particular artistic style...instead it was very generic in appearance. this generalization allowed for creative freedom on the part of players. the more a particular artic style is represented the less freedom the players will have in generating characters the way they feel.

another thing that should be mentioned regarding this is the tech used...given the advancements, the detail level is going to be worlds higher in CoT than was available in CoH. a simple example is that we won't have "mitten" hands...but articulate individual fingers.

the key now for MWM, imo, is to try and keep a nice generic artistic style while at the same time avoiding it become to realistic. I can only hope that at some point they will share a lil bit more regarding the artistic style they are shooting for in CoH, as thus far we really have no clue as nothing regarding the actual look of a character, whether player generated or npc, has been revealed.

given this....it is indeed a real concern as the player generated characters are going to be the game more so than the background (which we have seen in parts in their Test Block videos), stories or even powers. if the models don't look good, or the artistic style is to steeped in any given direction...I fear that CoT's life span will be greatly shorter than CoH.

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I just tried the valiance

I just tried the valiance online pre-alpha and the route they took with the character creation and battle sequences are very interesting. With this being a game in development hopefully this doesn't reflect on where CoT will be at launch/beta.

To keep with the theme of the thread I guess I will relate it. The chest in Valiance is interesting as well, I would describe it as a very braless style of 3D models

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VO reminds me a lot of CO.

VO reminds me a lot of CO. Like an updated version of the CO avatar.

Hoping if we need a bit more generic, something akin to FFXIV's model will be used with more slider options.

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Yeah. I don't know why but I

Yeah. I don't know why but I really do not like the look of Valiance Online. Mind you I didn't mind Champions Online or Wildstar Online's graphics (infact I adored the latter's art style)

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I love WS art style. Not

I love WS art style. Not sure for it in this game, but I do love it's style. VO's city looks good in that pic, but the avatar itself just comes off wanting to me.

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I think it's the pose that I

I think it's the pose that I have seen so far of the avatars that bothers me.....that can change over time though as there game isn't close to being done either.

I like the artstyle of this game so far so no worries for that. I am incredibly curious myself on how the costumes will look

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Nyktos wrote: Yeah. I don't
Nyktos wrote:

Yeah. I don't know why but I really do not like the look of Valiance Online. Mind you I didn't mind Champions Online or Wildstar Online's graphics (infact I adored the latter's art style)

I've started playing Champions Online again. Something about the art style does bother me. I understand that they were going for a comic book look, but things just lack a certain solidity. I think the cell shaded graphics together with the animations in the game gives everything a certain level of unreality that I find distancing.

Wildstar Online didn't have the same problem, and the characters move solidly and have satisfying animations. I also liked the animations on CoX.

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WooHoo! It's the thread that

WooHoo! It's the thread that never dies! This is like the 4th or 5th time this thread has been necroposted back to life. Surprisingly it managed to stay down for almost a year this time... ;)
Anyway since this thread is back for the moment it's worth mentioning that the folks working on the Black Desert MMO have recently (a few weeks ago) done the same thing MWM plans to do as far as releasing their character creator as a free standalone app before the launch of the western version of their game. It'll let you create a character and save it so that it can be imported once the game arrives.
Let's just say I hope the character creator for CoT is at least similar to what they did for Black Desert. The body slider options are amazing - even the "perky breasts" are handled pretty well. ;)

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*looks around for perky

*looks around for perky beasts, but then realizes that she's the perkiest of them all*

RAWR!

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You're the best, Amerikatt!

You're the best, Amerikatt!
Have a Perky Turkey Breast Jerky Treat.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote: You're the
Fireheart wrote:

You're the best, Amerikatt!
Have a Perky Turkey Breast Jerky Treat.Be Well!
Fireheart

Mmmmrawr! [Fanks, Fireheart!]

*holds jerky treat in her forepaws and daintily noms*

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Lothic wrote: WooHoo! It's
Lothic wrote:

WooHoo! It's the thread that never dies! This is like the 4th or 5th time this thread has been necroposted back to life. Surprisingly it managed to stay down for almost a year this time... ;)
Anyway since this thread is back for the moment it's worth mentioning that the folks working on the Black Desert MMO have recently (a few weeks ago) done the same thing MWM plans to do as far as releasing their character creator as a free standalone app before the launch of the western version of their game. It'll let you create a character and save it so that it can be imported once the game arrives.
Let's just say I hope the character creator for CoT is at least similar to what they did for Black Desert. The body slider options are amazing - even the "perky breasts" are handled pretty well. ;)

Great move by Pearl Abyss, great way to bring in a new audience. Having a great creator is paramount. I don't play as females, but not a breast guy in general only mess with the butt sliders, but that is a whole different story for a completely different forum.

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Phararri wrote: [I] in
Phararri wrote:

[I] in general only mess with the butt sliders, but that is a whole different story for a completely different forum.

Everybody's got to have their own "thing". ;)

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Amerikatt wrote: *looks
Amerikatt wrote:

*looks around for perky beasts, but then realizes that she's the perkiest of them all*RAWR!

lol

nennafir
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Phararri wrote: Great move by
Phararri wrote:

Great move by Pearl Abyss, great way to bring in a new audience. Having a great creator is paramount. I don't play as females, but not a breast guy in general only mess with the butt sliders, but that is a whole different story for a completely different forum.

What is the latest news on the character creator for CoT?

And yeah, having a great character creator is very important. It tends to be something that MMOs consistently do better than single player games.

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nennafir wrote: What is the
nennafir wrote:

What is the latest news on the character creator for CoT?

There really hasn't been any official "news" about it in a while.
But given everything I've read here from the Devs I would guesstimate very unofficially that we might get it by "this summer". That's based mostly on the theory that the Devs were shooting to have a beta of the game itself ready some time by the end of this year and the original plan was always to have the standalone Avatar Builder app released some number of months before the game came up for testing.
At any rate I'd give it at least six more months at this point - any release sooner than that would be pleasingly unexpected.

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Amerikatt wrote: *looks
Amerikatt wrote:

*looks around for perky beasts, but then realizes that she's the perkiest of them all*RAWR!

Didn't I read this a couple years back?

Amerikatt wrote:

*looks around for perky beasts, but then realizes that she's the perkiest of them all!**RAWR!*

Nope, there were more asterisks before. ^_^
Doesn't matter, Amerikatt is still the Perkiest Beast of Them All!

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Lothic wrote: nennafir wrote
Lothic wrote:

nennafir wrote: What is the latest news on the character creator for CoT?There really hasn't been any official "news" about it in a while.
But given everything I've read here from the Devs I would guesstimate very unofficially that we might get it by "this summer". That's based mostly on the theory that the Devs were shooting to have a beta of the game itself ready some time by the end of this year and the original plan was always to have the standalone Avatar Builder app released some number of months before the game came up for testing.
At any rate I'd give it at least six more months at this point - any release sooner than that would be pleasingly unexpected.

Thanks for the news Lothic! I appreciate how you are "always there" to help the City of Titans community.

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nennafir wrote: Thanks for
nennafir wrote:

Thanks for the news Lothic! I appreciate how you are "always there" to help the City of Titans community.

Like everyone else here I continue to have high hopes for MWM and this game. Even when I'm being "constructively critical" in my posting I wouldn't bother if I didn't care about the overall fate of CoT. :)
But remember if August comes around with no hint of the Avatar Builder you better not come back blaming me for it. Like I said my guess about it might be "educated" based on spending too much time on this forum but it's still only a guess. For all I know they might release it tomorrow... *shrugs*

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Especially given the past few

Especially given the past few updates where we have gotten to see a glimpse at the builder and we are meeting the character, and the ever so mysterious "But we’re just about… just about done." I would say that it is well on track and we can make all the perky beasts are hearts desire. :D

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Give it a few years and we

Give it a few years and we can go beyond the avatar builder.

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And here I thought you were

And here I thought you were going to be making an animation joke about the potential of twin front independent suspension being the way to go ...


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Redlynne wrote: And here I
Redlynne wrote:

And here I thought you were going to be making an animation joke about the potential of twin front independent suspension being the way to go ...


Is that even possible? ;)

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Lothic wrote: Redlynne wrote
Lothic wrote:

Redlynne wrote: And here I thought you were going to be making an animation joke about the potential of twin front independent suspension being the way to go ...
Is that even possible? ;)

You tell me ... ^_~


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Redlynne wrote: You tell me .
Redlynne wrote:

You tell me ... ^_~

Yeah... Those guys are just like cats fascinated by a laser pointer lol.
But with just a tiny bit of seriousness one of the many things I liked about the Black Desert Online character creator is that they seemed to provide "just enough" breast jiggle to be noticeable but not so much as to become "hypnotic pendulums" that kept swaying on their own like perpetual motion machines. Basically tending more towards "realistic motion" and less towards "overt fan service".
I'll just say (one more time) that it would be nice if CoT could follow BDO's lead in this subtle level of detail.

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As long as they avoid boob

As long as they avoid boob-socks on the clothed models, I'm okay with what they give me. Just looking at boob-socks makes my back hurt in sympathy (I still haven't figured out how to make that style of leotard support that weight).

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elegantmess wrote: As long
elegantmess wrote:

As long as they avoid boob-socks on the clothed models, I'm okay with what they give me. Just looking at boob-socks makes my back hurt in sympathy (I still haven't figured out how to make that style of leotard support that weight).

So you mean for some weird reason you DON'T want to see this in CoT...

;)
My deal is I just don't want to see this:

Instead something like this would be perfectly reasonable:

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Honestly, with the way the

Honestly, with the way the characters might be moving, I don't know that we'll be able to see any jiggle if it's done right (i.e. your example of reasonable jiggle). Watch a woman run braless, versus a woman in a standard bra, versus a woman in a sports bra (and maybe a corset, IDK if they can program for different clothing conditions). It'll change the amount of jiggle. I know my bust hardly moves in a good bra, and less in a sports bra.

Personally, I imagine that Power Girl's infamous boob window suit has a built in system. It's the only way she hasn't blacked her eye yet.

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elegantmess wrote: Honestly,
elegantmess wrote:

Honestly, with the way the characters might be moving, I don't know that we'll be able to see any jiggle if it's done right (i.e. your example of reasonable jiggle). Watch a woman run braless, versus a woman in a standard bra, versus a woman in a sports bra (and maybe a corset, IDK if they can program for different clothing conditions). It'll change the amount of jiggle. I know my bust hardly moves in a good bra, and less in a sports bra.

I'd agree in a "100% modeled on real life" game the type of clothing a woman wears would definitely affect the amount of jiggle that's seen. Even if you discount the type of bra being worn a sizably busty woman is more likely going to "visibly sway" in a thin t-shirt versus wearing a bullet-proof tactical vest or metal breastplate.
Thus if I could create a "perfect" game I would provide the players a "jiggle slider" for each costume slot allowing players to decide for themselves how much "visible movement" they want to show in a given costume. The range for this slider would be from zero movement (basically what we had in CoH) all the way to perhaps the reasonable amount of jiggle shown in the last video I linked to. This slider would in-effect allow players to decide if they are going braless or wearing something serious enough to keep themselves strapped down.
Yes I know that having a slider like that would probably be too much of a "temptation" for the 13-year-old boy crowd to crank it up to the max without thoughtful consideration for the costume in question. Still it would be a nice step towards being able to customize our overall appearance down to the smallest details.

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For the record our breasts

For the record our breasts were modeled on Power Girl. I don't know about "jiggle" yet. I guess I have to run some tests. I'll try to post results if I do so.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I don't know about "jiggle" yet. I guess I have to run some tests. I'll try to post results if I do so.

Thanks for at least considering this as a slider setting for the game. While it sounds counter-intuitive I'll once again stress that having just a tiny bit of subtle "jiggle" would actually be far better then anything overtly bouncy. From that point of view it might end up being easier for you to implement because we're only talking about a small/limited range of motion here.

For another quick good example of what I'm talking about check out the following Black Desert character creation video:

Starting at around the 23 minute and 34 minute marks you'll see the player spinning the female model around left and right and as the model moves the breasts "react" to the movement pretty much how I'd like to see them react to the physical inertia in CoT if possible. The motion we see in this video would be perhaps the "max" setting of the "jiggle slider" I'm suggesting for CoT - having no movement whatsoever would be the "min" setting of the slider.

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Some costume choices SHOULD

Some costume choices SHOULD jiggle ...

... while other costume choices SHOULD NOT ...

... so this is NOT a "one size fits all" situation and needs to be handled using a slider to adjust the dampening (all the way up to "solid, doesn't move"). Thankfully, this is already understood by the Developers doing the work.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Some costume choices SHOULD jiggle ...
... while other costume choices SHOULD NOT ...
... so this is NOT a "one size fits all" situation and needs to be handled using a slider to adjust the dampening (all the way up to "solid, doesn't move"). Thankfully, this is already understood by the Developers doing the work.

I was just (once again) stressing the whole point behind what such a "jiggle slider" would provide for the game. In case I wasn't clear enough this time (I've actually talked about this exact same topic in other related threads) it's obvious that the clothes worn would directly affect the amount of "jiggle" that would be noticeable. The whole point of the jiggle slider as proposed would allow for this variation. If you're playing a top-heavy girl wearing nothing but spandex with a "YYYUUUGE" cleavage cut-out hole you're likely going to want to set your jiggle slider towards the max (fully allowed motion) setting. On the other hand if your character is wearing a metal breastplate you're likely going to want to keep the slider at the min (no motion) setting.

The key here is that this game is going to end up offering thousands of different clothing options and instead of forcing the Devs to have to come up with "predefined" jiggle characteristics for every single one of those it would likely be much, much simpler to just let the players themselves decide how much physical jiggle they want to display. For instance maybe you're wearing a thin t-shirt but you still DON'T want to jiggle because you want to simulate wearing a very strong bra or maybe you want to simulate that you're made out of metal or somesuch. In that case you'd want to be able to have a different manually adjustable jiggle setting than some kind of single default the Devs would otherwise lock into it.

P.S. I don't really care if the range of settings on the slider equate to "degrees of dampening" or "degrees of motion" as long as one way allows for noticeable jiggle and the other way stops the jiggle effect completely.

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Hmm. "Jiggle" slider. I need

Hmm. "Jiggle" slider. I need to find out if the current female avatar "jiggles" at all. I'm hoping to have tests done by the end of the week. I'm passing the issue on though.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Hmm. "Jiggle" slider. I need to find out if the current female avatar "jiggles" at all. I'm hoping to have tests done by the end of the week. I'm passing the issue on though.

Again I just want to say it's very cool that you are giving this idea some serious consideration. As I'm sure you're aware the latest MMOs are constantly providing new levels of detail in their character body models. Along with all the recent advances in things like facial and clothing details I simply think that natural "anatomically correct" movements like this "jiggle" also deserve to be added to list of those things that people will essentially come to expect from a top-tier game. It's the next baby-step on the road to making these things that much more realistic.

If it turns out that calling this thing the "jiggle" slider is a tad bit too silly/racy you could always give it a more sober sounding name like the "inertial dampening" slider or the "body physics" slider or some such. Sure everyone would probably still nickname it the "jiggle" slider but at least it can sound like something else to the "family friendly" types. ;)

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Which is why I've got this

Which is why I've got this video handed to me to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVlJKOKknR8

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If it turns out that calling this thing the "jiggle" slider is a tad bit too silly/racy you could always give it a more sober sounding name like the "inertial dampening" slider or the "body physics" slider or some such. Sure everyone would probably still nickname it the "jiggle" slider but at least it can sound like something else to the "family friendly" types. ;)

I'd just call the slider "Dampening" and call it done, because that's the function. It dampens the "jiggling" of motion in a manner akin to friction, such that what is already in motion will eventually come to rest, but how quickly that happens can be adjusted. Obviously an "instant" dampening would result in a solid object that doesn't move relative to the rest of the body model. Set the dampening too low and stuff just never stops moving on its own, resulting in Ridiculous Boingy-Boingy that is completely unrealistic and stupid looking.

So on one end, you're going to want to have a "max" setting that results in "instant" dampening yielding fixed solids (such as cold steel) and a "min" setting that's placed somewhere reasonable on the friction scale so as to keep things from getting out of hand (and into your face).


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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Which is why I've got this video handed to me to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVlJKOKknR8

Redlynne wrote:

I'd just call the slider "Dampening" and call it done, because that's the function. It dampens the "jiggling" of motion in a manner akin to friction, such that what is already in motion will eventually come to rest, but how quickly that happens can be adjusted. Obviously an "instant" dampening would result in a solid object that doesn't move relative to the rest of the body model. Set the dampening too low and stuff just never stops moving on its own, resulting in Ridiculous Boingy-Boingy that is completely unrealistic and stupid looking.
So on one end, you're going to want to have a "max" setting that results in "instant" dampening yielding fixed solids (such as cold steel) and a "min" setting that's placed somewhere reasonable on the friction scale so as to keep things from getting out of hand (and into your face).

Like I said defining this slider in terms of a dampening concept is perfectly fine with me. The term "dampening" was specifically used in the interesting tutorial video(s) avelworldcreator linked to and it was clear that the slider controls the video guy was creating were directly linked to regulating the natural inertial motions involved.

I'll remain reasonably optimistic that some version of this will be doable for CoT. If the videos were any indication it looks like the technology would allow for implementation of this to be relatively straightforward. I think everyone's clear on what we'd like the slider to specifically do and what the "min" and "max" limits should allow for. I suppose what would be considered "reasonable" for the final value of the "min" limit might be open to subjective argument, but I hope we're generally agreed whatever it's set for should be relatively subtle/conservative. It should allow for "noticeable" degrees of both range of movement and duration of movement without approaching the realms of either "black eyed" bounciness or perpetual oscillation that never stops.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Hmm. "Jiggle" slider. I need to find out if the current female avatar "jiggles" at all. I'm hoping to have tests done by the end of the week. I'm passing the issue on though.

Thanks for posting in this thread! We appreciate your work.

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I've recently started looking

I've recently started looking into all the modding possibilities for Fallout 4 (FO4). Bethesda is getting ready to release their updated Creation Kit for their game sometime this month so it'll make it even easier for everyone to standardize mods for it. Now I completely understand there's a huge difference between what might be modable in CoT versus a game like FO4. The obvious fundamental difference is that FO4 is a standalone, single player game versus CoT being a MMO so right off the bat there's no easy way to coordinate/synchronize everyone using all the same mods the same way. It's very much an apples and oranges thing.

The main reason I mention FO4 modding at all (and especially in this specific thread) is that there's a particular mod being used that seems to be pretty famous called Caliente's Beautiful Body Edition (CBBE). There are others like it and CBBE itself has been used in Skyrim and other games. The main thing it does is replace the basic female character model in these game with one that has significantly better resolution. I don't recall the exact numbers but for FO4 it was like jumping up from the 2,000 polygons of the default model to like 20,000 polygons without any noticeable impact in game performance. The net benefit of this is that the model itself looks incredibly realistic and allows for all sorts of slider control modification. CBBE comes with an associated tool called Bodyslide which gives you access to something like 100 body silder controls and lets you not only save off "body profiles" for future customized body shapes but then lets you load in any available costume items (either default game ones or other modded ones) and "rebuilds" them so that they can perfectly fit over your customized body models in game.

What does that all mean? It means for a game like FO4 you can shape your females to virtually any proportion imaginable (even full on 9 months pregnant if you wanted) and redo all the clothing to be able to fit over those customized bodies. With Bodyslide the breast/chest area alone has something like 30+ sliders so that you can tinker with every subtle characteristic to your heart's content. If that wasn't incredible enough the CBBE system even has a prototype "physics enabled" body model where it allows for exactly the type of reasonable "breast jiggle" physics that I've been advocating for here.

While all of that is wonderful for single-player games I understand that translating any of the functionally provided by things like CBBE and Bodyslide into a MMO setting would be problematic to say the least. Just the sheer idea of trying to trasmit the full details of all the costume/slider values back-n-forth between players would be a network traffic nightmare. But even though the full reality of a CBBE/Bodyslider system for CoT may just be a pipedream I think it still has value to look at if for nothing else than to see that highly detailed physics-enabled body models are reasonably possible with today's technology and it might be possible to borrow a few of those elements for CoT. Perhaps if full multi-player modding is not possible for CoT it still might be something that could be adapted to the limited client-only type modding.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I've recently started looking into all the modding possibilities for Fallout 4 (FO4). Bethesda is getting ready to release their updated Creation Kit for their game sometime this month so it'll make it even easier for everyone to standardize mods for it. Now I completely understand there's a huge difference between what might be modable in CoT versus a game like FO4. The obvious fundamental difference is that FO4 is a standalone, single player game versus CoT being a MMO so right off the bat there's no easy way to coordinate/synchronize everyone using all the same mods the same way. It's very much an apples and oranges thing.
The main reason I mention FO4 modding at all (and especially in this specific thread) is that there's a particular mod being used that seems to be pretty famous called Caliente's Beautiful Body Edition (CBBE). There are others like it and CBBE itself has been used in Skyrim and other games. The main thing it does is replace the basic female character model in these game with one that has significantly better resolution. I don't recall the exact numbers but for FO4 it was like jumping up from the 2,000 polygons of the default model to like 20,000 polygons without any noticeable impact in game performance. The net benefit of this is that the model itself looks incredibly realistic and allows for all sorts of slider control modification. CBBE comes with an associated tool called Bodyslide which gives you access to something like 100 body silder controls and lets you not only save off "body profiles" for future customized body shapes but then lets you load in any available costume items (either default game ones or other modded ones) and "rebuilds" them so that they can perfectly fit over your customized body models in game.
What does that all mean? It means for a game like FO4 you can shape your females to virtually any proportion imaginable (even full on 9 months pregnant if you wanted) and redo all the clothing to be able to fit over those customized bodies. With Bodyslide the breast/chest area alone has something like 30+ sliders so that you can tinker with every subtle characteristic to your heart's content. If that wasn't incredible enough the CBBE system even has a prototype "physics enabled" body model where it allows for exactly the type of reasonable "breast jiggle" physics that I've been advocating for here.
While all of that is wonderful for single-player games I understand that translating any of the functionally provided by things like CBBE and Bodyslide into a MMO setting would be problematic to say the least. Just the sheer idea of trying to trasmit the full details of all the costume/slider values back-n-forth between players would be a network traffic nightmare. But even though the full reality of a CBBE/Bodyslider system for CoT may just be a pipedream I think it still has value to look at if for nothing else than to see that highly detailed physics-enabled body models are reasonably possible with today's technology and it might be possible to borrow a few of those elements for CoT. Perhaps if full multi-player modding is not possible for CoT it still might be something that could be adapted to the limited client-only type modding.

Hi Lothic. Great post!

I would only add that although this is a "breasts" topic, sliders with facial features can often go horribly wrong. Witness CO, where you had sliders but I think it was really hard to create a nice face. For faces, I would prefer either a CoX (faces pre-set) or a Guild Wars 2 (choose nice face, but then sliders after that) approach. Guild Wars 2 really has the best of both worlds. You can choose a pre-set face, and then you do sliders after that to fine tune.

The problem I find with many games (like the Elder Scrolls series and CO) that just have sliders for faces, is that the you might THINK the sliders give you freedom, but for some reason all of the faces still look like @$$. Sometimes, it is nice to have a pre-set face that looks good that you can either accept as is or change slightly.

PS: This is neither here nor there, but I was also a CoX player from the beginning until the end. I think I was different from most people though. Although I had been playing CoH for a long time, it wasn't until CoV that I started really loving the missions. When CoV came out, I started planning all of my characters out so that they would get every accolade while levelling up (before you could cheat things by going back in time) and I just really enjoyed things. For whatever reason, CoV was what I liked best. I switched all of my heroes over to villain side. It is also one of the reasons I want my "Vixens' Inc." mogul concept base to have lights like St. Martial at night. St. Martial was basically the ideal zone... Obviously, most disagreed with me and hero side was more populated, but one of the nice facets of CoX was that you could do just fine on either side.

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nennafir wrote:
nennafir wrote:

For faces, I would prefer either a CoX (faces pre-set) or a Guild Wars 2 (choose nice face, but then sliders after that) approach.

If I recall right, CoX (and Paragon Chat) had Face sliders, as well as Body. Granted, CO has more sliders, but lacks choice in basic faces. Both lack subtlety and range in hair and eye coloration. I've played other games which Appeared to offer lots of colors, but in-game, they often all looked the same.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

nennafir wrote:
For faces, I would prefer either a CoX (faces pre-set) or a Guild Wars 2 (choose nice face, but then sliders after that) approach.
If I recall right, CoX (and Paragon Chat) had Face sliders, as well as Body. Granted, CO has more sliders, but lacks choice in basic faces. Both lack subtlety and range in hair and eye coloration. I've played other games which Appeared to offer lots of colors, but in-game, they often all looked the same.
Be Well!
Fireheart

You are correct, of course! I think I just selected the faces as is for the most part. But I did like the CoX/GW2 approach.

One problem I find if it is all sliders and no pre-set faces, is that you theoretically have tons of choices but practically have very few. This is because they based everything off of one real world face type, and so the face tends to look best with every slider just stuck in the middle. Moving the sliders to the left or the right often just makes everything seem to be viewed through some face-warping funhouse mirror.

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nennafir wrote:
nennafir wrote:

You are correct, of course! I think I just selected the faces as is for the most part. But I did like the CoX/GW2 approach.

Since I mentioned Fallout 4 in my last post I'll just point out that the way that game handles faces is actually pretty amazing.

The basic Fallout 4 game (not talking about any mods here) provides around a dozen or so default preset faces. From there instead of having abstract sliders off to the side the GUI let's you take the mouse pointer and directly drag different parts of the face around to your liking. The best way to describe it is like the slider functionality is embedded directly into the face making it more exact and obvious what you're doing to it. While the default faces were certainly passable I was able (in about 10-15 minutes) to come up with a slider-adjusted face that was very satisfactory. Let's just say if CoT were able to copy the way Fallout 4 handles this it would be very cool for us.

But even if CoT more or less sticks to copying CoH's way of doing faces (provide for several dozen defaults with ample traditional slider adjustability) it should be fine. Of course I'll be hoping we get something more like Fallout 4 regardless, ;)

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Once you get past the point

Once you get past the point where there is no space between the breasts. You will probably run into animation nightmares.
Unless there is code and formula for expanding the size of a pattern in proportion of the size of the breasts. This could be different mathematic formulas
for each and every pattern and article of costume pieces for the chest.

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That sounds like a lot more

That sounds like a lot more effort than it's worth, Godling.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

Once you get past the point where there is no space between the breasts. You will probably run into animation nightmares. Unless there is code and formula for expanding the size of a pattern in proportion of the size of the breasts. This could be different mathematic formulas for each and every pattern and article of costume pieces for the chest.

Halae wrote:

That sounds like a lot more effort than it's worth, Godling.

If what Godling said was strictly correct then yes even I'd agree that having any kind of "breast jiggle" in any game would probably not be worth it.

But if Godling had bothered to read even one of my most recent posts on this thread he/she would've been aware there are numerous other games (e.g. Black Desert Online) and now even expert third party modders (for games such as Skyrim and Fallout 4) which have solved these issues quite adequately. For instance the Bodyslide tool (associated with the CBBE body model mod) can instantly rescale any costume item to refit over the fully animated breasts of the physics enabled CBBE model.

So it's really not much of a question of whether this kind of thing can be effectively done with today's software technology. It's more of a question of whether or not the folks at MWM will make it a priority to adapt current existing methods to implement this kind of thing into CoT at some point.

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It's quite possible that the

It's quite possible that the MWM Devs can't adopt those methods. Or can't afford to. It may not be as simple to acquire/implement as you imply, Lothic.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

It's quite possible that the MWM Devs can't adopt those methods. Or can't afford to. It may not be as simple to acquire/implement as you imply, Lothic.
Be Well!
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I've never implied it would be "simple" to do and I'm not automatically assuming it will happen in CoT. I'm just stating that the technology now exists and is being standardized among several different types of developers/modders. Sure if we were talking 5 years ago then I would definitely agree that what I'd be asking CoT to do here would be breaking new technological ground which given the situation with MWM would be implausible at best.

My point is that now in 2016 if modders can afford to FREELY distribute their tools across the Internet to accomplish this then it's really more a matter of priorities for a game like CoT. It's no longer a question of "can this even be done" at all or at a reasonable cost; it's now more a question of "will CoT choose to adapt the standardized capabilities" that already exist?

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I was innocently browsing the

I was innocently browsing the net (doubtless looking for better ways to keep my clothes wrinkle-free or possibly ways to eat healthier) and came across the link:

http://fusion.net/story/140624/game-of-throne-breasts-nudity/

After overcoming my outrage on a shallow article about breasts in game of thrones, I was interested to read, "Yes, magically and without reason, all the women who dare to bare on HBO’s hit series have perfect, perky breasts." Apparently perky breasts appeal to even more than comic book fans. I was intrigued to learn that the word "perky" occurs 10 times in the article.

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Oh thread so dead, writhing

Oh thread so dead, writhing in pain!
Arise, arise, to post again!

*ahem*

Yes, rather a lot of people like boobs, not just those who deal a lot with escapist media. this is something of a well known fact :P

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

Oh thread so dead, writhing in pain!
Arise, arise, to post again!
*ahem*
Yes, rather a lot of people like boobs, not just those who deal a lot with escapist media. this is something of a well known fact :P

I freely admit I've posted on this thread many, many times but at least I don't think I've ever directly necro'd it. Seems like there's always someone out there willing to do that bit of dirty work for me. ;)

Anyway it's obvious that a "hint of boobiness" will always draw an audience to anything. I know at least one guy who claims he couldn't care less about Game of Thrones as a story and I know him well enough to know that "medieval fantasy" is seriously not his normal cup of tea. Despite all that I'm pretty sure he's seen every episode if only for the potential several seconds per episode of seeing some "booby action" dance across the screen. Basically to him GoT might as well be very soft core porn.

Considering that the typical classic audience for comic books has been "teenaged males" is there any wonder that even the "suggestion" of seeing female unmentionables would drive up sales/interest? Even my interest in CoT as "escapist media" revolves around getting to have characters that get to dress up in relatively "risqué" costumes that I personally wouldn't be caught wearing in real life outside of cosplay at a convention. As long as everything remains within the realm of the game's "Teen" rating I see no problem with it.

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Your friend...does he know

Your friend...does he know boobs exist on the internet? Like half of it supposedly. No reason to sit through hours of mindless talk and bloody killings for a glimpse of boob.

Joking aside, sliders for everything. If it comes in 8 forms in real life and can be adjusted with a slider or two, by all means.

I hear Game of Thrones knows how to Necro too.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Your friend...does he know boobs exist on the internet? Like half of it supposedly. No reason to sit through hours of mindless talk and bloody killings for a glimpse of boob.

Actually when you're on a ship at sea run by various departments of the government that heavily regulates/censors what can be sent over the limited non-mission bandwidth you'll find that you're in one of the few places on the planet where you can't access the petabytes worth or porn that exist for everyone else.

For what's it's worth the guy I mentioned in my last post also thinks that old-school playboy centerfolds work pretty well as wallpaper and has "papered" practically every square inch of his stateroom with hundreds of them. Basically when you're several thousand miles from the rest of civilization for several months at a time you do what you have to do - even if that means wasting time looking for "glimpses" of boob on GoT reruns. ;)

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Joking aside, sliders for everything. If it comes in 8 forms in real life and can be adjusted with a slider or two, by all means.

This is true, but I have been burned by a lot of games with sliders. The elder scrolls series comes to mind. Yes, you have sliders, but you are basically sliding into irrelevancy as your slider choice is "hideously ugly--horrendously ugly--terribly ugly--fervently ugly--ugly". Yes, like most people, I go to the ugly end of the spectrum, but that doesn't help much.

Or Champions Online, which also had sliders, but all of the sliders had saggy boobs...

PS: Yes, I know I am shallow. It is nice that my wife has put up with me for all of these years...

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nennafir wrote:
nennafir wrote:

This is true, but I have been burned by a lot of games with sliders. The elder scrolls series comes to mind. Yes, you have sliders, but you are basically sliding into irrelevancy as your slider choice is "hideously ugly--horrendously ugly--terribly ugly--fervently ugly--ugly". Yes, like most people, I go to the ugly end of the spectrum, but that doesn't help much.

Or Champions Online, which also had sliders, but all of the sliders had saggy boobs...

Yeah it's definitely a "quality versus quantity" issue. Having a million sliders isn't that great if 95% of them are semi-useless. Hopefully we'll get a large number of "useful" sliders in CoT.

nennafir wrote:

PS: Yes, I know I am shallow. It is nice that my wife has put up with me for all of these years...

Just say you're a stickler for "artistic quality" in the games you play. Maybe that'll work. ;)

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Quote:
Quote:

Actually when you're on a ship at sea run by various departments of the government...

nuff said. I thought you were talking about someone with naturally weird internet habits. Not...government mandated internet habits.

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Possibly relevant article .

Possibly relevant article .

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Well, now I feel compelled to

Well, now I feel compelled to share this article about Bayonetta.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Well, now I feel compelled to share this article about Bayonetta.

That's a good one, yeah.

For those who don't want to read the whole thing, the gist is simple; Characters being sexual is not a problem. In fact, a lot of people, both men and women, enjoy characters being sexual. The trick is that it has to represent something about their character, because of the fact that sexuality is an innately personal thing. the problems arise when the sexualization is generic, bland, and says nothing about the character. When it actually says something about the character in question, it ceases being generic and feels like an interesting part of the character, something we can relate to.

So, do try to avoid making generic barbie dolls, please. It'll be better for everyone. But that doesn't mean you can't make someone sexy.

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Well, sliders of some kind

Well, sliders of some kind will always be with us.

As for sexual characters? Should we look to "A Game of Thrones"? :p (Never seen a episode, just read the books).

Sexy is fine I'm sure. Give us examples of what you are talking about. I know more than a few of the comic book females tend to be horrors catering to an adolescent audience, but attractive and tastefully so are not out of place. I for one am all for heroes that aren't all automatically "pretty".

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Hmm, I'd almost say the 'sexy

Hmm, I'd almost say the 'sexy' ought to be a toggle... Wait, does that turn into 'idle stances'? A menu of 'idle stances'? Would such stances affect a target? Perhaps modifying the target's stance? Perhaps there's a Pop-up? "CharacterX is being (Angry) at you, do you want to be (Angry) too?"

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Are you wanting Character

Are you wanting Character Traits ..with only some affecting Stance(s)?

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Well, I was presuming that:

Well, I was presuming that:
IF stances;
THEN all stances are available;
WHILE stances are selected;
NOT stance is selected at character creation;
OR stances/attitudes are selected at creation as a personality 'snapshot'?

I would Not expect a character to be 'sexy' while up to their nether-bits in snow, fighting a Winter Lord. Unless they're clearly demented. So I thought sexy/not-sexy ought to be a toggle, or otherwise triggered in social situations, rather than all the time. I could also see it as a trigger-able pose, like an 'after-battle-cry'.

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I think Stance is a great

I think Stance is a great idea, but I think it would work when toggled ON that it has like a combat timer so lets say 10 secs out of combat then you return to the sexy stance.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

From ya boy, Elios.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I would Not expect a character to be 'sexy' while up to their nether-bits in snow, fighting a Winter Lord. Unless they're clearly demented. So I thought sexy/not-sexy ought to be a toggle, or otherwise triggered in social situations, rather than all the time. I could also see it as a trigger-able pose, like an 'after-battle-cry'.

It seems like what's being suggested here is the ability to switch between different "stances" via the keybind system. The CoH keybind system allowed people to link emotes with various powers and costume changes. Assuming CoT provides for various stances it would make sense that these could be keybound in a similar way.

In addition to keybinding stances I would assume there would be a way to establish a "default" baseline stance for characters and a means to select any available stances via some kind GUI menu for those people who don't want to mess with keybinding. Some special/rare stances could even be "unlocked" like auras were in CoH.

Elios Valoryn wrote:

I think Stance is a great idea, but I think it would work when toggled ON that it has like a combat timer so lets say 10 secs out of combat then you return to the sexy stance.

Combat animations should naturally override any other kind emote or stance animation. When you stop fighting you should eventually return to whichever non-combat stance you have pre-established. That's basically the same way CoH worked - I don't think there would be any need for an extra hardwired 10 second "timer" to handle this.

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I'm reading a comic where

I'm reading a comic where this one character, after stopping a nuclear blast with his Face, turns his handsome mug to the 'camera' and says, 'still perfect'. His Hair isn't even mussed. That's sorta what I meant by a 'sexy' 'after-battle-cry'.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I'm reading a comic where this one character, after stopping a nuclear blast with his Face, turns his handsome mug to the 'camera' and says, 'still perfect'. His Hair isn't even mussed. That's sorta what I meant by a 'sexy' 'after-battle-cry'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Sure... and something like that could be easily set up assuming stances (one of which could be the "sexy" stance) are things that could triggered/changed with keybinds. In this case you'd link the change to the sexy stance and an "after-battle" phrase (chatted in local) to a single keystroke. You could even add a cool "victory pose" emote to all that to complete the effect. Then when you're done being "sexy" you could always have another keybind to switch your stance to something else.

Keybinds allowed players to kick off emotes and/or costume changes at will in CoH. Letting stances be quickly changeable via keybinds would allow people to switch from (for example) a "happy/neutral" stance to an "angry" stance when a nemesis walks too close or to a "sexy" stance when you want to flirt with someone. It would be an incredibly useful roleplaying tool.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Hmm, I'd almost say the 'sexy' ought to be a toggle... Wait, does that turn into 'idle stances'? A menu of 'idle stances'? Would such stances affect a target? Perhaps modifying the target's stance? Perhaps there's a Pop-up? "CharacterX is being (Angry) at you, do you want to be (Angry) too?"
Be Well!
Fireheart

I think this is an awesome idea!

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Hi all,

Hi all,

I want CoX to succeed. Hopefully, you can still win out in the current scenario....

Best,
nennafir

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I hope that the Devs will be

I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.

As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.

I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.

Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).

"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.

Thanks!

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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.
As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.
I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.
Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).
"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.
Thanks!

Flat to "Wondergirl" - even "uniboob" for some costumes.

For the record we've been passing around a video. This is an actual "green lighted" game on Steam - definitely NSFW! I think this qualifies as an extreme we want to avoid. I started to post the link but I'll let you search it out yourselves. Google "Let's Watch Haydee".
If our female members find this much "jiggle" acceptable and our "family friendly" goals are not threatened I'm not personally against it though I'd think it might be more than a little sexist. The game elements of "Haydee" are an excellent puzzle game and I'd play it for that reason but I'd much rather do it without the gratuituous sexuality.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Amerikatt wrote:
I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.
As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.
I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.
Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).
"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.
Thanks!
Flat to "Wondergirl" - even "uniboob" for some costumes.
For the record we've been passing around a video. This is an actual "green lighted" game on Steam - definitely NSFW! I think this qualifies as an extreme we want to avoid. I started to post the link but I'll let you search it out yourselves. Google "Let's Watch Haydee".
If our female members find this much "jiggle" acceptable and our "family friendly" goals are not threatened I'm not personally against it though I'd think it might be more than a little sexist. The game elements of "Haydee" are an excellent puzzle game and I'd play it for that reason but I'd much rather do it without the gratuituous sexuality.

I think you are missing out on an excellent money maker for COT. The Jiggle Slider. The slider affects jiggle only on the players computer. It can go from none to crazy fan service and is available only for a price. The default is a modest Jiggle that you were talking about.
If people want modesty, its there for free.
If people want crazy, it will only be on their computer. Teen ratings will be preserved. and COT can cash in on all who want a little extra.

There you have the perfect solution.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

Amerikatt wrote:
I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.
As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.
I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.
Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).
"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.
Thanks!
Flat to "Wondergirl" - even "uniboob" for some costumes.
For the record we've been passing around a video. This is an actual "green lighted" game on Steam - definitely NSFW! I think this qualifies as an extreme we want to avoid. I started to post the link but I'll let you search it out yourselves. Google "Let's Watch Haydee".
If our female members find this much "jiggle" acceptable and our "family friendly" goals are not threatened I'm not personally against it though I'd think it might be more than a little sexist. The game elements of "Haydee" are an excellent puzzle game and I'd play it for that reason but I'd much rather do it without the gratuituous sexuality.

Clearly there's no "practical" reason why the character model in this Haydee puzzle game needs such large breasts that are as jiggly as shown in the videos. It was obviously done for the ever present "sex sells" motive and I would not use this as a direct 1-for-1 model for what I'd want to see in CoT. If anything I would say that the max amount of breast jiggle that ought to be allowable in CoT should never be more than maybe about half (or less) the amount shown in these specific videos. This kind of jiggle can positively add to CoT but it should be SUBTLE, not STUPID.

As far as breast size goes I agree with Amerikatt in hoping that CoT will allow for realistically flat-chested females. The minimum size that CoH allowed for was still relatively too large for several of my own character concepts. On the other hand I DON'T have a problem with a max breast size that could rival the so-called "massively-mammaried jokes" that Amerikatt seems to disapprove of. My bottomline is to have CoT support as wide a range of breast sizes (from washboard flat to nigh-ridiculously big) as possible. I realize that might allow a few idiots to run around with maxed-out settings for joke characters but I could put up with that downside in favor of having as much creative freedom as possible. I want to be able to create both flatchested teenagers AND/OR Power Girl clones as I see fit.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

avelworldcreator wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:
I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.
As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.
I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.
Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).
"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.
Thanks!
Flat to "Wondergirl" - even "uniboob" for some costumes.
For the record we've been passing around a video. This is an actual "green lighted" game on Steam - definitely NSFW! I think this qualifies as an extreme we want to avoid. I started to post the link but I'll let you search it out yourselves. Google "Let's Watch Haydee".
If our female members find this much "jiggle" acceptable and our "family friendly" goals are not threatened I'm not personally against it though I'd think it might be more than a little sexist. The game elements of "Haydee" are an excellent puzzle game and I'd play it for that reason but I'd much rather do it without the gratuituous sexuality.
I think you are missing out on an excellent money maker for COT. The Jiggle Slider. The slider affects jiggle only on the players computer. It can go from none to crazy fan service and is available only for a price. The default is a modest Jiggle that you were talking about.
If people want modesty, its there for free.
If people want crazy, it will only be on their computer. Teen ratings will be preserved. and COT can cash in on all who want a little extra.
There you have the perfect solution.

I do hope you were joking! Adding such a feature to the game even if it was restricted to the local machine would still void the "Teen" rating we are aiming for. Of course we aren't responsible for user mods...

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

avelworldcreator wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:
I hope that the Devs will be able to come to a rational compromise with regard to this subject.
As I will not be able to play Amerikatt at launch, I will likely play her teenage human sidekick, and would appreciate if she could be properly proportioned for a 16-year-old girl. I will be playing CoT to enjoy the gameplay and team-up with a small group of friends, guildies, and teammates, *not* to entertain the puerile pixillated fantasies of male miscreants.
I am *still* *quite* put-off that Catwoman, Wonder Woman, and Power Girl were made into massively-mammaried jokes to cater to a mostly-male demographic, thus taking away from the heroic strengths of those characters in favor of focusing on less important qualities, such as breast size.
Devs: PLEASE give us the sliders to make (literally) flat-chested characters (for Amerikatt), and small- and moderate chests (for her sidekick and her sidekick's older self).
"Sexiness" should be an *internal* quality, not an external one.
Thanks!
Flat to "Wondergirl" - even "uniboob" for some costumes.
For the record we've been passing around a video. This is an actual "green lighted" game on Steam - definitely NSFW! I think this qualifies as an extreme we want to avoid. I started to post the link but I'll let you search it out yourselves. Google "Let's Watch Haydee".
If our female members find this much "jiggle" acceptable and our "family friendly" goals are not threatened I'm not personally against it though I'd think it might be more than a little sexist. The game elements of "Haydee" are an excellent puzzle game and I'd play it for that reason but I'd much rather do it without the gratuituous sexuality.
Clearly there's no "practical" reason why the character model in this Haydee puzzle game needs such large breasts that are as jiggly as shown in the videos. It was obviously done for the ever present "sex sells" motive and I would not use this as a direct 1-for-1 model for what I'd want to see in CoT. If anything I would say that the max amount of breast jiggle that ought to be allowable in CoT should never be more than maybe about half (or less) the amount shown in these specific videos. This kind of jiggle can positively add to CoT but it should be SUBTLE, not STUPID.
As far as breast size goes I agree with Amerikatt in hoping that CoT will allow for realistically flat-chested females. The minimum size that CoH allowed for was still relatively too large for several of my own character concepts. On the other hand I DON'T have a problem with a max breast size that could rival the so-called "massively-mammaried jokes" that Amerikatt seems to disapprove of. My bottomline is to have CoT support as wide a range of breast sizes (from washboard flat to nigh-ridiculously big) as possible. I realize that might allow a few idiots to run around with maxed-out settings for joke characters but I could put up with that downside in favor of having as much creative freedom as possible. I want to be able to create both flatchested teenagers AND/OR Power Girl clones as I see fit.

Power Girl was literally the model for our upper end (how I came up with "Wonder Girl" I just don't know). But I think I recall demonstrating in a video with one of our female models modifying the breast size (the person clumsily adjusting all those body sliders was yours truly). I tried to show the full range of every slider there - that was a lot of sliders! "Uniboob" is a more recent development to allow for some costumes.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I do hope you were joking! Adding such a feature to the game even if it was restricted to the local machine would still void the "Teen" rating we are aiming for. Of course we aren't responsible for user mods...

I'd agree that CoT shouldn't allow anything that could threaten the "Teen" rating even if it were gated behind a cash store paid-for option. The classic "fanservice" amount of jiggle should NEVER be acceptable for CoT. But that doesn't mean that the basic idea of gating any kind of "jiggle option" behind the cash store is a completely bad idea.

As a compromise to Cyclops' idea the game could be structured so that the default/free option would be NO JIGGLE at all so the people who didn't want to deal with jiggle would never have to see it. But if a player wants to have a limited/subtle/reasonable amount of jiggle then that could be a one-time paid-for option that would unlock "jiggle" for their account. But again even once jiggle is unlocked it would only allow for a reasonable amount ideally controlled by a slider for each costume slot to adjust it from zero jiggle to whatever the reasonable max is set to. Players would have to unlock the jiggle option in order to see it not only on their own characters but to see it on other player's characters as well - the default would always be no jiggle anywhere.

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I already figured if we were

I already figured if we were to implement it it would be an automatic thing. I hadn't thought of those variations. Not entirely my decision. I know the project lead and our community manager might be concerned (the project lead, like me, is on the business team and board of directors). I know the community manager is quite sensitive to such issues and I respect his position. I'll pass the suggestion on though. Not sure exactly how best to do that yet but I'll try.

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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I already figured if we were to implement it it would be an automatic thing. I hadn't thought of those variations. Not entirely my decision. I know the project lead and our community manager might be concerned (the project lead, like me, is on the business team and board of directors). I know the community manager is quite sensitive to such issues and I respect his position. I'll pass the suggestion on though. Not sure exactly how best to do that yet but I'll try.

I appreciate that you are at least considering this issue and how it might be implemented in CoT. As I'm sure you're aware this has been a relatively controversial issue on this forum and I'm well aware there are those out there who would rather not see any kind of "jiggle physics" in this game at all. I have always taken a reasonable stance on this topic (even during the more "heated" debates) and would be willing to accept a "default no jiggle" scenario even though I'd personally like to see it be an option for game.

Bottomline the more features the better and I'm willing to get jiggle in the game even if it'd have to be via some kind of cash store unlock to appease those who'd rather not have it for whatever reasons. To be perfectly clear even though I'd want to have the breast jiggle option in CoT I would probably also like to create some of my female characters WITHOUT any jiggle so the idea of forcing it to be an automatic thing for all females would probably be almost as bad as not having the option at all. This is why having a "jiggle slider" for each costume slot that includes a "zero jiggle" extreme setting would likely be the best solution to satisfy the most people possible.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I personally do not care. I

I personally do not care. I am not a boobs kind of guy. I amusingly enough would be more bothered by static hair then jiggle physics.

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Nyktos wrote:
Nyktos wrote:

I personally do not care. I am not a boobs kind of guy. I amusingly enough would be more bothered by static hair then jiggle physics.

To me this issue has always been about what we as players ought to be able to reasonably expect based on what the current state of software technology will allow for. If CoT was going to be based on technology from say 2002-2004 then I would not expect it to be able to easily support things like animated hair or reasonable jiggle physics simply because those things were relatively hard/costly to accomplish using the tools available back during that timeframe. On the other hand things like animated hair and/or reasonably realistic/subtle body jiggle are far more "doable" using modern software technology of the current 2016-2018 timeframe.

I'm not necessarily saying these things MUST be in CoT as an absolute given - I'm just saying features like this are now so much more simple/cheap to do (from an engineering point of view) that it will be relatively hard for Devs to make the case (excuse?) that things like this shouldn't be in all games in general from now on.

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In another thread (http:/

In another thread (http://cityoftitans.com/forum/discuss-youre-not-super-till-you-put-cape) it was mentioned that eyes would not be a separate moving part of the body because of the limit to the number of bones in the character skeleton. Each eye would require one bone a piece. Each breast is also animated with a bone. I was asking myself if it came down to the last two bones, would I rather have eyes that looked at my target (see FFXIV or SWTOR for a good example of this) or would I rather have breasts that bounced.

In that same thread, the devs did say that they would make the eyes blink and look around as part of a skin animation, not a skeleton animation, but they wouldn't look at your target.

At first I thought that since I was always looking at the back of my head I wouldn't notice, but what I would notice is all the player characters around me all looking into space. But then I also realized that head movement could still lock on to target, and even move the torso if it would have to turn the head too far to do it. SWTOR does this very well also.

My conclusion is that I would rather those two bones be spent animating breasts than animating eyes. But I sincerely hope that the type of clothing plays a part in how much and what parts are actually animated.


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avelworldcreator wrote:
avelworldcreator wrote:

I do hope you were joking! Adding such a feature to the game even if it was restricted to the local machine would still void the "Teen" rating we are aiming for. Of course we aren't responsible for user mods...

I was half joking. I personally prefer Lothic's mild default Jiggle that would still preserve the teen rating.

The user mods intrigue me. Let me start a new thread in ask the devs...This is incredible news for me at least

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

In another thread (http://cityoftitans.com/forum/discuss-youre-not-super-till-you-put-cape) it was mentioned that eyes would not be a separate moving part of the body because of the limit to the number of bones in the character skeleton. Each eye would require one bone a piece. Each breast is also animated with a bone. I was asking myself if it came down to the last two bones, would I rather have eyes that looked at my target (see FFXIV or SWTOR for a good example of this) or would I rather have breasts that bounced.
In that same thread, the devs did say that they would make the eyes blink and look around as part of a skin animation, not a skeleton animation, but they wouldn't look at your target.
At first I thought that since I was always looking at the back of my head I wouldn't notice, but what I would notice is all the player characters around me all looking into space. But then I also realized that head movement could still lock on to target, and even move the torso if it would have to turn the head too far to do it. SWTOR does this very well also.
My conclusion is that I would rather those two bones be spent animating breasts than animating eyes. But I sincerely hope that the type of clothing plays a part in how much and what parts are actually animated.

SWTOR uses the same eye trick we're using, actually. So does Final Fantasy XIV and TERA.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

SWTOR uses the same eye trick we're using, actually. So does Final Fantasy XIV and TERA.

Well then. Consider that whole discussion point moot. I seem to recall seeing an actual eye modeled inside the skulls in those games when you get the camera inside the surface of the head and I've seen eyeballs follow me, so I naturally assumed they were independent elements.

Thanks for the quick response and for correcting me. I'd hate to continue with an erroneous assumption.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
SWTOR uses the same eye trick we're using, actually. So does Final Fantasy XIV and TERA.
Well then. Consider that whole discussion point moot. I seem to recall seeing an actual eye modeled inside the skulls in those games when you get the camera inside the surface of the head and I've seen eyeballs follow me, so I naturally assumed they were independent elements.
Thanks for the quick response and for correcting me. I'd hate to continue with an erroneous assumption.

No worries. It was TERA which first clued me into it, matter of fact. It really is a very clever trick, actually, and takes full advantage of modern GPU's ability to handle textures at a higher speed than polygons. So it was explained to me by an old friend of mine, it takes roughly 8x more processing time on average to move a polygon than a texture, and a single texture can cover multiple polygons. We're taking full advantage of the materials power found within Unreal Engine. When we can do it using Materials, we use Materials. Making eyes move, even track, is a trivial use of this power — the simple moving of a texture map using good old Blitting.

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huckleberry. I'm not sure

huckleberry. I'm not sure physics objects would require bones. Since they aren't "animated" they just react. With the eye's you need to move bone to forcefully move them (not the case for COT, but in example). But in a physics object there is just the mesh that needs to react. I'm not a animator so maybe I'm totally wrong but that's my intuition talking. It's more like cloth or hair than an arm, leg, or eye. Since we know that cloth can exist quite abundantly on the form (see capes) I suspect there aren't any bones in the capes or other physics objects. Now if they wanted have the breasts look in different directions then they would probably need bones. And that is a strange image I've painted.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

No worries. It was TERA which first clued me into it, matter of fact. It really is a very clever trick, actually, and takes full advantage of modern GPU's ability to handle textures at a higher speed than polygons. So it was explained to me by an old friend of mine, it takes roughly 8x more processing time on average to move a polygon than a texture, and a single texture can cover multiple polygons. We're taking full advantage of the materials power found within Unreal Engine. When we can do it using Materials, we use Materials. Making eyes move, even track, is a trivial use of this power — the simple moving of a texture map using good old Blitting.

That makes total sense! Thanks.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

huckleberry. I'm not sure physics objects would require bones. Since they aren't "animated" they just react. With the eye's you need to move bone to forcefully move them (not the case for COT, but in example). But in a physics object there is just the mesh that needs to react. I'm not a animator so maybe I'm totally wrong but that's my intuition talking. It's more like cloth or hair than an arm, leg, or eye. Since we know that cloth can exist quite abundantly on the form (see capes) I suspect there aren't any bones in the capes or other physics objects. Now if they wanted have the breasts look in different directions then they would probably need bones. And that is a strange image I've painted.

Yes, physics objects do require bones, including capes. Here's a video showing how you add a cape (not ours, but good example) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccYNRCDEavE

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To build a moment on my

To build a moment on my earlier statement:

By itself, a 3d mesh is a hard object, immovable, unchanging. To get something to change, you have two main avenues available inside of Unreal: vertex morphing (the reshaping of polygons) and bones. Morphs are limited to what you calculate out while creating the model. Bones however can be hard, or soft, and even in between, which is why they are so popular. So, a ball flattens when it bounces off a surface, you need a soft bone. The computer calculates out how the bone inside the ball reacts, then transfers that data to the mesh on the outside. When you have precalculated changes, morphs are easier on the GPU, so you find them used for things such as people's faces in SWTOR when they talk. When you need to calculate it on the fly, like the motion of a cape flapping in a random wind pattern, it is a lot easier to use a bone.

So, on the "jiggle" factor which is the topic here, soft bones would be needed.

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